Hundreds overdose on homeopathic remedies

[Raistlin]

Yesterday, there was an organized protest (http://www.1023.org.uk/) in the UK where hundreds of people "overdosed" on homeopathic remedies, to demonstrate one key fact that Britain's NHS has so far ignored: there's nothing in them. Seriously, these things are literally just water and sugar pills, and thousands of people and the UK's government are spending millions of dollars on this crap.

Normally, I just ignore most of this "alternative medicine" crap. My mom's friend actually recommended I go see her acupuncturist, and I politely declined while trying not to laugh. I mean, at least those sorts of useless things actually look like they're doing something to you, even if that's just poking you with a needle -- so it's slightly more understandable people buy into it, especially if they get a placebo effect.

But homeopathic remedies are literally nothing. The idea is to put a drop of whatever is causing the harm (i.e., caffeine for insomnia) in a beaker of water, and then take a drop of the new solution and put that in a beaker of water, etc etc. Repeat 6-10 times, at which point there's likely nothing of the original drop left... but apparently if you shake it up at each new step, the water "remembers" its properties. I :bou::bou::bou::bou: you not, that's exactly what these con-artists/nutjobs say.

Not surprisingly, there's been no reports of any actual overdose-related harm.

So, do you know anyone into "alternative medicine"? Are you embarrassed for our species?

[AntRid]

Ignorant much?

Are you saying natural drugs are just a figment of people’s imagination? Try telling that to million addicted to drugs. Yes there are dodgy people who sit in teepees wearing bandanas saying they know how to cure you but a real Homeopath spends just as long learning about this stuff as a GP does about his profession.
Myself and others around me have turned to alternate medicine because of various reasons and it does work so how about trying it before dismissing it right off the bat?

I have to say however that if you rely solely on alternate medicine and reject conventional medical help then you’re a nut. Even my Homeopath says it can’t cure everything under the sun.

[rubah]

If they spend such a long time learning homeopathy, how come they never learned that the effects they claim are chemically impossible?

It is a fraud, a hoax. Sorry.

Natural drugs or herbs may or may not have effects (ill or good), but homeopathy is water.

[Raistlin]

... I'm ignorant for thinking that our entire understanding of chemistry and biology is not completely erroneous (in line with all available evidence), which is what would be required for water to "remember" a couple of molecules of a previous solution? There are even studies (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16125589) which show homeopathic solutions are, at most, placebos. Not only does it not work, but it can't work (http://www.1023.org.uk/what-is-homeopathy.php), according to everything we know about the way the world works. "Conventional" medicine is based on those principles of our understanding; those principles would not be correct in a world where homeopathy works.

EDIT: in response to AntRid. <3 at rubah.

[Tavrobel]

placebo effect.

And that is all that matters.

[Mirage]

Placebo sometimes works though :p

[Meat Puppet]

And you get to spend a truckload of money on it at the same time! What’s the problem?!

[qwertysaur]

Placebo sometimes works though :p
Yet it is unknown why it sometimes does :p

[AntRid]

I’m not claiming I know the science behind it. I barley know the science to making a cup of coffee, but what I am saying, from my personal experience, what I have had works. I’m handed a bottle of what looks like black tar, not water with a drop or two in it, and I generally does the desired effects.

[Mirage]

Placebo sometimes works though :p
Yet it is unknown why it sometimes does :p

Idk. Sometimes bad mental health can lead to physical symptoms, which could suggest that what's going on in your head can have a physical effect on your body. That could also mean that if good stuff is going on in your head (such as strongly believing that something will work), it could soothe various physical symptoms in your body :p.

[Raistlin]

Placebo sometimes works though :p
Yet it is unknown why it sometimes does :p

Not at all. Psychological phenomenon can have an actual physical effect on your body. Placebo effects are just one example of that. See also: mass hysteria. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_hysteria)


I’m not claiming I know the science behind it. I barley know the science to making a cup of coffee, but what I am saying, from my personal experience, what I have had works. I’m handed a bottle of what looks like black tar, not water with a drop or two in it, and I generally does the desired effects.

I have no idea what you're taking, nor am I dismissing any and all "natural" treatments. Aspirin, for example, is even based on a natural compound (found in willow bark). But there are some so-called natural treatments that are completely bogus, and have been proven bogus, and could not possibly work based on basic biology and chemistry. Homeopathy is an example of that.

EDIT:
Placebo sometimes works though :p

Is that supposed to justify such scammers?

[Bunny]

I’m not claiming I know the science behind it. I barley know the science to making a cup of coffee, but what I am saying, from my personal experience, what I have had works. I’m handed a bottle of what looks like black tar, not water with a drop or two in it, and I generally does the desired effects.

So someone hands you something that you have absolutely no clue about and you take it. You'll go places.

[Psychotic]

Raistlin, man, maybe you need to, like, expand your mind, dude. I think you've totally bought into the corporate con, man, and you need to step back a bit and stop doing what the government and like, drug companies are telling you. I feel sorry for all of you, like, sheeple, man. Yeah.

Now let me show you this shirt that I made entirely of hemp.

[Momiji]

I’m not claiming I know the science behind it. I barley know the science to making a cup of coffee, but what I am saying, from my personal experience, what I have had works. I’m handed a bottle of what looks like black tar, not water with a drop or two in it, and I generally does the desired effects.

If it's a homeopathic remedy, it's having a placebo effect on you. Simple as that.

[Miriel]

Acupuncture has worked for me in the past. I dunno what's so laughable about it, it's something that's been practiced for thousands of years and millions of people benefiting from it. Or at least claiming to. And I doubt any placebo effect had a part in my experiences since A) I hate needles, B) I was more or less forced into doing it by my parents with little confidence that it would work C) the first time I had it done, I was sobbing over a sprained finger and about 9 years old. Not exactly the best mental condition to be psychologically influenced by any perceived benefits of acupuncture. I wasn't even aware of what was happening to me, all I knew was that I was in pain and suddenly I wasn't anymore. I'm sure going to a regular doctor, I would have been just fine, probably better than fine. But we didn't have insurance and acupuncture did the trick so there you go.

Chiropractic practices were seen as alternative medicine for the longest time, but now it's fairly well accepted form of treatment. I don't think you should laugh off any and all alternative treatments just cause you have a specific idea of what works and what doesn't.

I don't know enough about homeopathy to make any sort of judgment about it.

[LunarWeaver]

I used to lol at this girl in high school who would get sick all the time in Medical Terminology when we were reading about illnesses and seeing pictures and such. I should have spit in some orange juice and told her it was a master cure for the nice price of $50 or something.

Ah, I don't know much about much or anything about homeopathy other than its name is funny. I'll just agree with Raistlin because his avatar has a hat.

[Raistlin]

There's currently no reason to believe that acupuncture is anything more than a placebo, just like homeopathy (that I've seen anyway). Here is a good overview (http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/08/the_largest_randomized_acupuncture_study.php), along with links to real studies.

Your childhood experience, rather than showing a lack of a placebo effect like you claim, instead is a stronger case for a psychological response, in that children are more easily focused on other things. An easy explanation for an immediate response, beyond a placebo effect, is endorphins released in response to the needle puncture (which would coincide with the fact that, as the article above mentioned, "sham" acupunctures have results indistinguishable from "real" acupunctures).

EDIT: in response to Miriel.

[AntRid]

Caffeine gives you an adrenaline rush, Poison Ivy gives you a rash, Red Hot chilly Peppers are red hot. Are these just placebo effects? Is it really a stretch to believe that mixing herbs together can have different effects on the body?

[rubah]

Homeopathy is not herbs.

"Naturopathy" is herbs.

(and allopathy is western medicine, doctors, pills, etc)

Homeopathy is water. It's also poop (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3358/3428145260_137850a3f0.jpg)

I'll repeat this as many times as is necessary for it to become clear.

[Raistlin]

Caffeine gives you an adrenaline rush, Poison Ivy gives you a rash, Red Hot chilly Peppers are red hot. Are these just placebo effects? Is it really a stretch to believe that mixing herbs together can have different effects on the body?

As rubah said, homeopathy is water. And did you miss the part where I said that there are natural herbs with an effect? Also, the fact that X works is not any sort of evidence for Y working, so your statement makes no sense to begin with.

[Miriel]

There's currently no reason to believe that acupuncture is anything more than a placebo, just like homeopathy (that I've seen anyway). Here is a good overview (http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/08/the_largest_randomized_acupuncture_study.php), along with links to real studies.

Your childhood experience, rather than showing a lack of a placebo effect like you claim, instead is a stronger case for a psychological response, in that children are more easily focused on other things. An easy explanation for an immediate response, beyond a placebo effect, is endorphins released in response to the needle puncture (which would coincide with the fact that, as the article above mentioned, "sham" acupunctures have results indistinguishable from "real" acupunctures).

EDIT: in response to Miriel.

If endorphins were released cause of the 3 needles places in my finger, then woohoo! Endorphins!

My sprained finger at no point immediately after or in any of the following days/weeks felt any pain from the injury. Once the pain was gone, it was gone. It's more crooked than my other fingers which is kind of a bummer, but otherwise, 3 little needles and that was it. No other treatment necessary. If that's the kind of placebo effect that something can have on a child who had no beliefs one way or the other about acupuncture, then god damn. That's kinda miraculous. And I don't really see what's so wrong with that. If it is all psychological, how awesome is it that your mind can cure you? I think that's great.

So as far as I'm concerned, it was effective and that's all that matters. Plus, it was like $10. Pretty worth it if you ask me. Like I said, this is all anecdotal and I don't expect anyone's minds to change cause of my own experience. I just find complete disregard for anything other than western medicine to be a limited way of thinking.

[Mirage]

Placebo sometimes works though :p

Is that supposed to justify such scammers?

No :p

[krissy]

hey now

gay people can be doctors too

[theundeadhero]

xD

[Moon Rabbits]

hahahahhaha krissy winssssss i lol'd.

Anyway, I've always wanted to try acupuncture because I've heard a lot of people have similar experiences to Miriel's. Aaaaaand, like she said ... placebo effect or no; your brain is still tricking you into being cured so why not?

As for homeopathy, yeh I'm pretty sure that's a load of :bou::bou::bou::bou: but w/e.

I think you're a little too faithful in the Western/European medical model, though, Raistlin ;) Overmedicalization leads to as many problems as fake cures, imo~ Ie. the ridiculous overmedicalization of sexual disorders which are, more often than not, psychological problems and not physiological ones.

[Raistlin]

I think you're a little too faithful in the Western/European medical model, though, Raistlin ;) Overmedicalization leads to as many problems as fake cures, imo~ Ie. the ridiculous overmedicalization of sexual disorders which are, more often than not, psychological problems and not physiological ones.

There's a distinct difference between relying on "western" medicine specifically and relying on medicine that has actual evidence behind it, and is required to be relatively "safe and effective" for doctors to even utilize. "Alternative" medicine is not beholden to any such regulatory standards. In fact, hemeopathic remedies and other alternative medication are explicitly exempt from FDA regulations on their safety or efficacy (and wouldn't be on the market if they were required to prove the latter).

Your example of "overmedicalization" is more of a problem with the more subjective standards of psychology. Take it up with the DSM. The effects of homeopathy, acupuncture, etc. can be objectively determined. A better example would be the overprescription of antibiotics leading to higher instances of resistant bacteria and autoimmune disorders, but that doesn't rebut the efficacy of the drugs (because they obviously work), but simply shows that their use can have negative effects.

Miriel: Nothing you've said contradicts a placebo result, even if anecdotal evidence was at all useful. In response to your "limited way of thinking" comment, I'll go back to what I said to Moon Rabbits: how is it bad to rely on medication that has actual evidence and testing and research backing its conclusions? I agree that it's limited, but in a responsible, realistic, and objective fashion.

And I <3 krissy.

[Miriel]

I never denied that there could be a placebo effect. I specifically said that if there was a placebo effect, and that effect was strong enough to result in complete eradication of pain, then I don't see anything wrong with that. If there are methods which can allow your own body to heal itself without the aid of any other medication, I find that pretty cool. It's just another method of healing. You're acting like a placebo effect is somehow ineffectual? Why? If it works, it works. Mind over matter is pretty awesome in my opinion.

I think it would be great if different forms of healing and treatment were studied and regulated, but for the longest time (at least in the US) it was illegal to even practice any of this stuff. I mean, it's still illegal today in some states to practice midwifery. Some states let you get a license, but others don't even allow that option. There were huuuge efforts to block the licensing of chiropractors since chiropractics was seen as unscientific and harmful to the public. But nowadays, you can even have a visit to the chiropractor covered in your insurance plan. The initial response to anything outside the mainstream seems to be complete dismissal, which isn't really the right attitude. It's the kind of attitude I think you're sporting.

I have health insurance with Kaiser Permanente, I take antibiotics for infections, I go to pharmacies to get prescriptions filled, I don't have any problem with mainstream medicine. But I'm not going to close myself off to other possibilities.

I think more research done on this stuff is a GOOD thing. I think the best doctor to have would be the kind who has knowledge of more than the very strict set of treatments available in the mainstream. Cancer treatment is a good example of the current battle to introduce more alternative methods to treating cancer and the incredible reluctance of the medical community to entertain any thoughts outside of chemotherapy. I like having options and dislike the idea that there is only one way to attack a problem and it's THIS way and all other methods are just silly and tricks of your brain and blah blah blah.

I get what you're saying, I really do. It's just I personally really don't care if other people think they're being cured by water. I really don't. As long as people aren't being harmed by it, I don't see the point in being all condescending and OH NOES HUMANITY! about it.

[Aerith's Knight]

Acupuncture has worked for me in the past. I dunno what's so laughable about it, it's something that's been practiced for thousands of years and millions of people benefiting from it. Or at least claiming to. And I doubt any placebo effect had a part in my experiences since A) I hate needles, B) I was more or less forced into doing it by my parents with little confidence that it would work C) the first time I had it done, I was sobbing over a sprained finger and about 9 years old. Not exactly the best mental condition to be psychologically influenced by any perceived benefits of acupuncture. I wasn't even aware of what was happening to me, all I knew was that I was in pain and suddenly I wasn't anymore. I'm sure going to a regular doctor, I would have been just fine, probably better than fine. But we didn't have insurance and acupuncture did the trick so there you go.

Chiropractic practices were seen as alternative medicine for the longest time, but now it's fairly well accepted form of treatment. I don't think you should laugh off any and all alternative treatments just cause you have a specific idea of what works and what doesn't.

I don't know enough about homeopathy to make any sort of judgment about it.

I think acupuncture is basically about killing nerves, not blood flow. You think you got better because you don't feel the pain anymore, but that just masks the problem. Pain is there for a reason.

I think that if you wanted to really redirect blood flow, you'd need far more needles than they use, most likely bigger too.

[rubah]

The FDA has already outlawed snake oil and "patented remedies", so they ought to do the same in this case.

The harm comes when people <i>don't</i> get cured, and realize that it's too late to try something more effective.

[Shlup]

I don't know why you all are still posting, krissy already won the thread.

Whatever. OUTLAW LYING! The stupid should be protected, especially if they have my money.

[rubah]

but there's an e there...

[Raistlin]

I never denied that there could be a placebo effect. I specifically said that if there was a placebo effect, and that effect was strong enough to result in complete eradication of pain, then I don't see anything wrong with that. If there are methods which can allow your own body to heal itself without the aid of any other medication, I find that pretty cool. It's just another method of healing. You're acting like a placebo effect is somehow ineffectual? Why? If it works, it works. Mind over matter is pretty awesome in my opinion.

You seem to be addressing statements I never made. I never said this stuff couldn't ever bring about a desired result; I merely said they are not effective in the ways they are advertised. I would also argue that it's bad for a unproven, ineffective form of treatment to get government funding... or really to be used at all, just on the off-chance that you might have a placebo reaction.


I think it would be great if different forms of healing and treatment were studied and regulated, but for the longest time (at least in the US) it was illegal to even practice any of this stuff. I mean, it's still illegal today in some states to practice midwifery. Some states let you get a license, but others don't even allow that option. There were huuuge efforts to block the licensing of chiropractors since chiropractics was seen as unscientific and harmful to the public. But nowadays, you can even have a visit to the chiropractor covered in your insurance plan. The initial response to anything outside the mainstream seems to be complete dismissal, which isn't really the right attitude. It's the kind of attitude I think you're sporting.

Wait, what? So it's wrong to be dismissive of claims which have been proven wrong? You are mischaracterizing my statements as an "initial response," when in fact they are made with the weight of overwhelming evidence. Homeopathy and acupuncture have about as much change of being legitimate as evolution being a conspiracy of scientists, or of water curing AIDS. The efficacy of these treatments (or lack thereof) is demonstrably false.


I have health insurance with Kaiser Permanente, I take antibiotics for infections, I go to pharmacies to get prescriptions filled, I don't have any problem with mainstream medicine. But I'm not going to close myself off to other possibilities.

Did I ever say you should? Again, you're mischaracterizing my argument to be "go prescription drugs go! bad everything else!" My argument has been limited to those treatments which have been proven to be based on nothing but pseudo-science.


I think more research done on this stuff is a GOOD thing. I think the best doctor to have would be the kind who has knowledge of more than the very strict set of treatments available in the mainstream. Cancer treatment is a good example of the current battle to introduce more alternative methods to treating cancer and the incredible reluctance of the medical community to entertain any thoughts outside of chemotherapy.

The FDA is a pain in the ass, but there are exceptions for terminal patients to receive non-approved treatment still in the clinical trials phase. But these "non-mainstream" (really, just "new") treatments are still based on actual science.


I get what you're saying, I really do. It's just I personally really don't care if other people think they're being cured by water. I really don't. As long as people aren't being harmed by it, I don't see the point in being all condescending and OH NOES HUMANITY! about it.

rubah pointed out just one possible way these things are bad -- it's analogous a Christian "scientist" telling you to pray over a sick child. Anyway, what's the "harm" in calling a bogus treatment "bogus?" And what about government funding hemeopathic treatments, like in the UK?

[McLovin']

This reminds me of this skit: Most geniusly written poem. [VIDEO] (http://www.wimp.com/stormpoem)

[Raistlin]

Haha, great link. Tim Minchin is awesome. I'm also reminded of his song "if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBUc_kATGgg)

EDIT: Oops, forgot to link it.

[NorthernChaosGod]

I don't know why you all are still posting, krissy already won the thread.

Whatever. OUTLAW LYING! The stupid should be protected, especially if they have my money.

How would the stupid have your money?

I'm going to say what I've always said, the answer to stupidity is quite simple; just take the warning labels off everything and let the problem sort itself out.

[Raistlin]

You get 0 points for quoting an 8-year-old bash quote as an original idea.

[Croyles]

Seeing as how my dad is a homeopath, I strongly disagree with this.
I know for a fact that it is much more than placebo. Try giving placebo to someone, it does not work in the long run. My dad has had medicine practioners of all types come to his practice, some with pretty severe physical conditions.

There is proper science behind it, the best thing I can do is to get you to read Wilhem Reich, basicly the brainchild of it all. I'm not going to defend it, as you've already made up your mind.

What is actually happening is that most homeopaths don't know SH*T about their own subject, especially in the UK. It is a feeding ground for exploitation, that does not mean it doesn't work when done right.

A fraud does not mean the subject is a hoax.

[Raistlin]

So I looked up Reich. I didn't find anything remotely talking about water memory and dilution, but I did find this:


[Reich] argu[ed] that he had discovered a primordial cosmic energy. He called it "orgone," and the study of it "orgonomy."

Orgone is blue in color, he wrote, omnipresent, can be seen with the naked eye, and is responsible for such things as weather, the color of the sky, gravity, the formation of galaxies, and the biological expressions of emotion and sexuality. He argued that St. Elmo's Fire is a manifestation of it, as is the blue color of sexually excited frogs.

... yeah.

What "science" is behind homeopathy? What studies have shown any effect? Why did all those UK protesters who "overdosed" suffer NO effects? How is a 20 or 30C homeopathic solution distinguishable at all from plain water (which according to everything we know about chemistry it can't be)?

[NorthernChaosGod]

Seeing as how my dad is a homeopath, I strongly disagree with this.
I know for a fact that it is much more than placebo. Try giving placebo to someone, it does not work in the long run. My dad has had medicine practioners of all types come to his practice, some with pretty severe physical conditions.

There is proper science behind it, the best thing I can do is to get you to read Wilhem Reich, basicly the brainchild of it all. I'm not going to defend it, as you've already made up your mind.

What is actually happening is that most homeopaths don't know SH*T about their own subject, especially in the UK. It is a feeding ground for exploitation, that does not mean it doesn't work when done right.

A fraud does not mean the subject is a hoax.
But the subject being a hoax does mean all the practitioners are frauds.

[blackmage_nuke]

You seem to be addressing statements I never made. I never said this stuff couldn't ever bring about a desired result; I merely said they are not effective in the ways they are advertised.

If they advertised that the treatment was a placebo then that would defeat the purpose.

But then again Im a nutjob who believes water and fresh air is a good way to cure many illnesses

[Raistlin]

If they advertised that the treatment was a placebo then that would defeat the purpose.

That principle allows literally anything to be marketed to cure anything, on the chance there could be a placebo effect. And while we (correctly) allow pretty much everything to be marketed, scientists and governments are in the business of regulating the claims they make (whether that's a good thing or not). Additionally, the government (at least the UK's) should not be using taxpayer money to pay exorbitantly for what amounts to glorified placebos.

[Psychotic]

Additionally, the government (at least the UK's) should not be using taxpayer money to pay exorbitantly for what amounts to glorified placebos.
I am a taxpayer and voter of the UK; you are not. I hereby demand that my government spends my taxes in an exorbitant manner on what amounts to glorified placebos.

Owned. :smug:

[Raistlin]

That would be more persuasive if you were actually stupid enough to believe that.

Wait, nevermind. :p

[Psychotic]

Stupid enough to believe that they are glorified placebos? Does this mean that they are not, in fact, glorified placebos and that they actually work? Raistlin I think you should stop and think before you make a post in these debate threads because you're just contradicting yourself here.

Just a helpful posting tip from an internet debate master. :shobon:

[Raistlin]

Substitute "straw man" with "obnoxious pedantry." (http://www.qwantz.com/comics/comic2-555.png)

[Psychotic]

Good comeback. Here is mine.

22) Best Poster

Psychotic..........14
Quin................7
Raistlin............6
I'm My Own MILF.....5
Rantzien............4
Levian..............4
Meat Puppet.........4
ShlupQuack..........3
RSL.................1

now what bitch. :cool:

[Quindiana Jones]

It's difficult for me to laugh at Raistlin, because I'd have to laugh at the others too which would make me a complete dick.

[Croyles]

Hey, medicine was invented in the last 500 years right? If you want to shove antibiotics in you for every illness out there, go ahead.

Cant fill a cup thats full.

[Raistlin]

The only relevant part is me defeating Shlup. Everything else is insignificant.

Anyway, back ON-TOPIC, there was an article in New Scientist (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527455.800-homeopathy-overdosing-on-nothing.html) about the 10^23 event and homeopathy in general. There's also been no reported negative effects of the mass-overdose (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18455-mass-drug-overdose--none-dead.html). The "true believers" in the comments struggling to justify their water-drugs in the face of all evidence are somewhat amusing.

EDIT:
Hey, medicine was invented in the last 500 years right? If you want to shove antibiotics in you for every illness out there, go ahead.

Cant teach a cup thats full.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make here. Did you miss the part where it's already common knowledge that there are plenty of herbs and natural remedies that actually have a demonstrable effect? Water is not one of them, which is quite literally what any 10+C homeopathic "remedy" is.

[Croyles]

The only relevant part is me defeating Shlup. Everything else is insignificant.

Anyway, back ON-TOPIC, there was an article in New Scientist (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527455.800-homeopathy-overdosing-on-nothing.html) about the 10^23 event and homeopathy in general. There's also been no reported negative effects of the mass-overdose (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18455-mass-drug-overdose--none-dead.html). The "true believers" in the comments struggling to justify their water-drugs in the face of all evidence are somewhat amusing.

EDIT:
Hey, medicine was invented in the last 500 years right? If you want to shove antibiotics in you for every illness out there, go ahead.

Cant teach a cup thats full.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make here. Did you miss the part where it's already common knowledge that there are plenty of herbs and natural remedies that actually have a demonstrable effect? Water is not one of them, which is quite literally what any 10+C homeopathic "remedy" is.

How about actually properly reading up on homeopathy further than skim-reading on the subject before making your claims. Come back in a year.

[rubah]

Why don't you teach us? Or get your dad to register to teach us:D

[Raistlin]

What am I misunderstanding? Does homeopathy not include the premise that water has memory and that continuous dilution of a substance makes it more potent? I've also cited actual research which concludes homeopathy is no more effective than placebos, so please, feel free to cite anything to the contrary.

[Croyles]

Why don't you teach us? Or get your dad to register to teach us:D

Teach yourself, while your at it you could also learn some humility. :p


What am I misunderstanding? Does homeopathy not include the premise that water has memory and that continuous dilution of a substance makes it more potent? I've also cited actual research which concludes homeopathy is no more effective than placebos, so please, feel free to cite anything to the contrary.

Homeopathy includes the premise that there has to be a connection between the patient and the remedy. The fact that thousands of these people took random remedies while not having any affiliation with it defeats the purpose, and doing it once is even more laughable, maybe they should do it for a couple of days and see what it does.

Anyway, im not going to post anymore, because I already said I wasn't going to defend it.
That is why I said you should read more on it (internet skim-reading does not count).

Ciao :)

[Dr Unne]

If your problem is pain, then anything you can do to relieve your pain is a good thing (unless the pain is a reflection of a more serious underlying problem). But there are things that can't be cured by placebo. People are using homeopathy as a vaccine for malaria (http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2006/jul/14/medicineandhealth.lifeandhealth). This is almost certainly resulting in people getting sick and dying. Chiropractic is OK, but using it to treat allergies (http://www.chirocommunity.com/allergies.htm)? That's just stupid, when we have real medicine that can easily treat it.

The problem with alternative medicine isn't the people using it to help their vague aches and pains, it's the people using it to treat their cancer (http://www.cancure.org/homeopathy.htm) and diabetes (http://abchomeopathy.com/forum2.php/179/). How can any decent person call this anything less than a travesty? The power of your mind can help you in a lot of ways, but it can't cure everything. We have a germ theory of disease nowadays, where sicknesses aren't caused by magical forces or misalignments in people's auras or negative thoughts, they're caused by organisms in your body or genetic defects or chemical inbalances. The cure for disease isn't wishful thinking, voodoo, or a magical, unexplained connection between patient and treatment. The cure is to kill the germs and fix the chemicals. Welcome to the 1800's.

Some of these alternative medicines have been used for hundreds or thousands of years, which is partly why our life expectancy was so low for so long. Go play with the slider (http://understandinguncertainty.org/node/210) and enjoy what modern medicine has done for us. I especially like the immense drop in infant mortality.

Mainstream science isn't discounting alternative medicine. The demonization of western medicine is a small step away from conspiracy theory. Herbs and natural remedies that are shown to work via testing are absorbed into the mainstream. (e.g. asprin) If homeopathy worked, why wouldn't scientists and doctors eagerly adopt it? Do you think doctors are complete morons, or that they want their patients to suffer needlessly? Do you think a single guy a couple hundred years ago discovered "water memory", something that completely destroys most of modern chemistry and physics, and that scientists have been spitefully ignoring it ever since? Revolutions in science happen all the time. Once they're shown by evidence to be true, people adopt the new ideas. Germ theory of disease was itself one of these revolutions, completely overthrowing what came before it. There's no reason the same wouldn't happen for homeopathy if it worked. Yes medicine is abused and misused sometimes, yes our understanding is imperfect, yes there's a whole lot left in the world to discover, but that's no reason to go running in the direction of aromatherapy and crystal power and magical water potions. Modern medicine works amazingly well, we know very well how and why it works, and it's by far the best we've got.

Homeopathy and acupuncture and other alternative treatments have been thoroughly studied and tested. The studies say they are no more effective than placebo. The people using these treatments can't offer any explanation of how or why they work. The problem isn't people ignoring alternative medicine, the problem is alternative medicine practitioners ignoring reality.

Summary: If you're sick and don't have a death wish, please go see a real doctor.


...while your at it you could also learn some humility.

Says he who claims to know better than all of modern science.

[NorthernChaosGod]

If your problem is pain, then anything you can do to relieve your pain is a good thing (unless the pain is a reflection of a more serious underlying problem). But there are things that can't be cured by placebo. People are using homeopathy as a vaccine for malaria (http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2006/jul/14/medicineandhealth.lifeandhealth). This is almost certainly resulting in people getting sick and dying. Chiropractic is OK, but using it to treat allergies (http://www.chirocommunity.com/allergies.htm)? That's just stupid, when we have real medicine that can easily treat it.

The problem with alternative medicine isn't the people using it to help their vague aches and pains, it's the people using it to treat their cancer (http://www.cancure.org/homeopathy.htm) and diabetes (http://abchomeopathy.com/forum2.php/179/). How can any decent person call this anything less than a travesty? The power of your mind can help you in a lot of ways, but it can't cure everything. We have a germ theory of disease nowadays, where sicknesses aren't caused by magical forces or misalignments in people's auras or negative thoughts, they're caused by organisms in your body or genetic defects or chemical inbalances. The cure for disease isn't wishful thinking, voodoo, or a magical, unexplained connection between patient and treatment. The cure is to kill the germs and fix the chemicals. Welcome to the 1800's.

Some of these alternative medicines have been used for hundreds or thousands of years, which is partly why our life expectancy was so low for so long. Go play with the slider (http://understandinguncertainty.org/node/210) and enjoy what modern medicine has done for us. I especially like the immense drop in infant mortality.

Mainstream science isn't discounting alternative medicine. The demonization of western medicine is a small step away from conspiracy theory. Herbs and natural remedies that are shown to work via testing are absorbed into the mainstream. (e.g. asprin) If homeopathy worked, why wouldn't scientists and doctors eagerly adopt it? Do you think doctors are complete morons, or that they want their patients to suffer needlessly? Do you think a single guy a couple hundred years ago discovered "water memory", something that completely destroys most of modern chemistry and physics, and that scientists have been spitefully ignoring it ever since? Revolutions in science happen all the time. Once they're shown by evidence to be true, people adopt the new ideas. Germ theory of disease was itself one of these revolutions, completely overthrowing what came before it. There's no reason the same wouldn't happen for homeopathy if it worked. Yes medicine is abused and misused sometimes, yes our understanding is imperfect, yes there's a whole lot left in the world to discover, but that's no reason to go running in the direction of aromatherapy and crystal power and magical water potions. Modern medicine works amazingly well, we know very well how and why it works, and it's by far the best we've got.

Homeopathy and acupuncture and other alternative treatments have been thoroughly studied and tested. The studies say they are no more effective than placebo. The people using these treatments can't offer any explanation of how or why they work. The problem isn't people ignoring alternative medicine, the problem is alternative medicine practitioners ignoring reality.

Summary: If you're sick and don't have a death wish, please go see a real doctor.


...while your at it you could also learn some humility.

Says he who claims to know better than all of modern science.
A-fucking-men.


Homeopathy includes the premise that there has to be a connection between the patient and the remedy. The fact that thousands of these people took random remedies while not having any affiliation with it defeats the purpose, and doing it once is even more laughable, maybe they should do it for a couple of days and see what it does.

Anyway, im not going to post anymore, because I already said I wasn't going to defend it.
That is why I said you should read more on it (internet skim-reading does not count).

Ciao :)

Bahahahahahahaha. A connection between the patient and the remedy? That has got to be the most asinine premise ever. If a treatment works, it will work pretty much without regard to your feelings about the treatment.

[nik0tine]

How about actually properly reading up on homeopathy further than skim-reading on the subject before making your claims. Come back in a year.This is a piss poor argument. All you have said in this thread is 'my daddy said so so it must be true!' If you are so certain homeopathy is valid, why can't you put up any arguments? Why can't you give a short summary of why it is effective? Know why? Because you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. That's why.

[rubah]

Teach yourself, while your at it you could also learn some humility.

When I taught myself, I learned that homeopathy involves diluting one particular agent of illness until it is so dilute that it creates some sort of immunity or cure for whatever it was supposed to cause to begin with. If I have to be humble to that sort of nonsense, I'll just stay stuck up.

I mean, you're the one that isn't condescending to say what you know, after all.

[Raistlin]

Unne wins the thread, as he generally does where religion/superstition is concerned.

Here's a write-up (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/feb/03/homeopathy-overdose-hadley-freeman) of the 10:23 event by one of the attendees. There were some homeopaths who showed up to make excuses.


But there was a good reason for that, claimed the two homeopaths who turned up to watch proceedings: it's not the amount you take, it's how long you take it for ­(making me wonder if this is just the length of time it takes for an illness to ease on its own); and second, it didn't work ­because it wasn't prescribed to us ­(making me wonder if it only works if someone has told you it will).

I've read some other excuses as well. My favorite is that homeopathy is based on dilution, so the more you take the less potent the "remedy" is.

[Yeargdribble]

Wow, I'm amazed how many people are actually defending this. I can understand if you don't understand what homeopathy is (and assume it's just using herbs), but people who actually know what it is defending it is unbelievable.

1. Take 5 black and 95 white marbles and put them in a jar.
2. At random split the marbles into 5 sets of 20 and put them in new jars.
3. At 80 white marbles to each jar of 20 so that the total is 100 again.
4. For every jar repeat step 2.
5. Do this dozens to hundreds of times.

Once you've done this sufficiently to have 100 jars of 100 marbles when you only started with 5 black marbles... how is it possible for each of the 100 final jars to still have a black marble?

This is the principle of homeopathy. You dilute something repeatedly in water. At some point you literally will have diluted it so many times that not even a single molecule of the original "active" substance can be present in the jar of water. The argument that says that the more diluted it is, the more likely it is to work is like saying the more times you run the marble experiment, the more likely a black marble will appear in each jar. More likely at 1/1,000,000 than 1/100. Homeopathy is bunk.

So basically you're saying water has memory of medicinal stuff that's been in it. However, it lacks memory for every contaminant it's run over in its existence, right? If homeopathy works then water treatment plants cannot.

[Unbreakable Will]

Owned. God steals the stage.
Homeopathy is ridiculous imo, placebo effect or not.

By the way has it come to anyones attention that Yearg just posted outside EoEO? o.O

[Raistlin]

So I read about this study (http://scienceblogs.com/islandofdoubt/2006/07/alternative_medicine_debate.php), which was to determine how much people who use "alternative" medicine really care about the science. The results are not comforting:


When asked what they would do if a government agency said that the supplement they use most often was ineffective, 71% of regular users reported that they would continue to use it. In the follow-up survey, respondents were asked what they would do if the FDA specifically said that the supplement they use most often was ineffective to see if using the FDA's name vs an unknown government agency would alter the result. The addition of the FDA did not lead to different responses. Once again, two thirds (67%) of regular and sometimes users said that they would continue to take the supplement.

[NorthernChaosGod]

Jesus Christ. Really? That's just sad and awful.

I weep for humanity.

[Mirage]

Wow, I'm amazed how many people are actually defending this. I can understand if you don't understand what homeopathy is (and assume it's just using herbs), but people who actually know what it is defending it is unbelievable.

1. Take 5 black and 95 white marbles and put them in a jar.
2. At random split the marbles into 5 sets of 20 and put them in new jars.
3. At 80 white marbles to each jar of 20 so that the total is 100 again.
4. For every jar repeat step 2.
5. Do this dozens to hundreds of times.

Once you've done this sufficiently to have 100 jars of 100 marbles when you only started with 5 black marbles... how is it possible for each of the 100 final jars to still have a black marble?

This is the principle of homeopathy. You dilute something repeatedly in water. At some point you literally will have diluted it so many times that not even a single molecule of the original "active" substance can be present in the jar of water. The argument that says that the more diluted it is, the more likely it is to work is like saying the more times you run the marble experiment, the more likely a black marble will appear in each jar. More likely at 1/1,000,000 than 1/100. Homeopathy is bunk.

So basically you're saying water has memory of medicinal stuff that's been in it. However, it lacks memory for every contaminant it's run over in its existence, right? If homeopathy works then water treatment plants cannot.
In fact, the effect of the contaminants would get stronger the more you treated the water :)

[Yeargdribble]

In fact, the effect of the contaminants would get stronger the more you treated the water :)

That would explain why my tap water tastes like s**t. :)



By the way has it come to anyones attention that Yearg just posted outside EoEO? o.O

It was an accident. I swear. I just clicked on a link and was wondering how I'd missed this topic in EoEO. It was after I responded that I realized it was in General. Definitely a rarity for me, though I do sometimes post in the other forums... I just tend to live in EoEO because teh interwebz r srs biznes.



When asked what they would do if a government agency said that the supplement they use most often was ineffective, 71% of regular users reported that they would continue to use it. In the follow-up survey, respondents were asked what they would do if the FDA specifically said that the supplement they use most often was ineffective to see if using the FDA's name vs an unknown government agency would alter the result. The addition of the FDA did not lead to different responses. Once again, two thirds (67%) of regular and sometimes users said that they would continue to take the supplement.

Yeah, this is just sad. My wife an I were recently at the doctor for some minor cold type thing. The doctor was actually lamenting that the government would now regulate his ability to prescribe things that didn't work. He cited the fact that people just feel better getting anything even if it doesn't work and so he would just prescribe stuff so the patient would feel better psychologically even if he knew there was nothing he could prescribe that would help their condition.

They want to throw their money away and they feel like the government is being too imposing when it tells doctors they can't just prescribe pointless crap.

[Unbreakable Will]

[QUOTE=UnbreakableWill;2787186]
By the way has it come to anyones attention that Yearg just posted outside EoEO? o.O

It was an accident. I swear. I just clicked on a link and was wondering how I'd missed this topic in EoEO. It was after I responded that I realized it was in General. Definitely a rarity for me, though I do sometimes post in the other forums... I just tend to live in EoEO because teh interwebz r srs biznes.
Indeed, no laughing....ever...:shifty:

[Yeargdribble]

It's kinda funny that I come across so serious and all. My wife often complains that I'm always joking around and that I'm not taking things seriously enough. I'm actually a laid-back, carefree guy.

[Raistlin]

It's kinda funny that I come across so serious and all. My wife often complains that I'm always joking around and that I'm not taking things seriously enough. I'm actually a laid-back, carefree guy.

Haha, I'm very similar. Offline I'm very laid back. I think the contrast has something to do with being exposed to more stupidity online, and having specific avenues (forums, blogs, etc.) of expressing frustration with it.

[Peegee]

I haven't responded to this thread?

If homeopathy were consistent in its purported benefits, it would be used by everybody in established medicine. But wait, it's not, so it must be a government conspiracy to halt its production!

My grandmother had a stroke a while back. One of the 'treatments' is acupuncture, because well, I'm Chinese. My mother's observation is that it (acupuncture) is more effective than traditional western medicine.

Shoot me.

[Raistlin]

Yet more reason to stay away from "natural remedies" that may even have real things in them: some common herbal supplements have negative interactions with common medication (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/09/health/research/09haza.html).

[Madame Adequate]

If people want to try this nonsense that's between them and their doctor, but I'll be damned if quack medicine should be paid for by the government when real treatments (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article4499847.ece) are not.

[Raistlin]

Wait, wait... the NHS has a "value-for-money watchdog?" And this so-called watchdog approves of "alternative medication" like acupuncture somehow? I would love to see those calculations.

[Tavrobel]

Placebo/cost of water = infinity.

[rubah]

Read this
Homeopathy vs Science - a Metaphor (http://www.jakearchibald.co.uk/homeopathy/)


But this thread is a month old and on the third page!

Bite me.













(you'll like it~)

[Raistlin]

That analogy is perfectly accurate. That optical illusion is freaky, though.

Also on topic, last month Wordpress disabled the blog (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/02/christopher_maloney_is_a_quack.php) of a guy who was being critical of some "naturopath" nutjob called Christopher Maloney at the request of another complete quack (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/02/andreas_moritz_is_a_cancer_qua.php). Last I heard Wordpress finally reenabled the blog, but it's still disheartening on several levels -- including the fact that those two wackos actually have a following.

[NorthernChaosGod]

I remember that illusion, it's sweet. Also, the argument made me lol.

Also, observer effect, double slit experiment. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc)

[Cuchulainn]

When I first seen this i mistook the title as 'Hundreds overdose on homophobic remedies'.


I have nothing more to add.