XV: why CAN'T we finally have a return to the old flavor?

[Bastian]

I JUST watched the trailers for XIII. Ugh. SO futuristic and tech-y looking.

Why CAN'T we have a big ol' consul game that hearkens back the good ol' days of castles, swords, and other such medieval flavors?

Yes, I know a good portion of you out there LIKE the more future-y stuff. I know that VII and beyond is what a lot of you grew up on. But some of us found VII a shock to our systems. And then VIII and complete parody of what FF meant to us.

Yes, there was IX. And as awesome as IX was, that's just one in a series of SEVEN games to return to the true "fantasy" flavor that has long since passed.

Surely XV isn't too soon to return to that style?

And how about this time not rely on such a cutesy design but something as realistically proportioned as other major consul FFs.

Don't worry, you tech-loving scifi geeks will get another seven scifi-esque games.

[Bolivar]

Well the games seem to really mix the two. Even in FFVIII, you're still slaying dragons and summoning phantom beasts.

And I think FFXII seemed a lot like the game you're looking for.

But I agree, I really hope they get their act together for their next "next-gen" effort and get back to what Final Fantasy does best.

[charliepanayi]

Because Square Enix aren't interested in that avenue anymore. I'm not saying it's right for them to take that attitude, but you're in a dreamland if you think they're going to be appeasing your wish for a world like FFVI anytime soon.

And some of us like the settings of games like FFVIII. Besides FFX/X-2 and FFXII were hardly completely futuristic in tone.

[Mirage]

FF14 isn't sci-fi.

[Goldenboko]

At the moment futuristic stuff sells. Look at Mass Effect 2. When a game comes out and blows away critics and sells ridiculously that appears to be approaching that old school fantasy feel (no, Dragon Age was not that game) Square will decide whether Old Skool Fantasy sells again.

[Levian]

FF14 isn't sci-fi.

It's also not a real Final Fantasy game :D

[Depression Moon]

At the moment futuristic stuff sells. Look at Mass Effect 2. When a game comes out and blows away critics and sells ridiculously that appears to be approaching that old school fantasy feel (no, Dragon Age was not that game) Square will decide whether Old Skool Fantasy sells again.
Wasn't XIII in development way before Mass Effect came out?


I don't see any harm in the sci-fi esque FFs. they do not outweigh the other kinds and I like the scenery to change from time to time. Makes things more interesting. I do wish that XIII was even more techy though. I was looking forward to an android or robot playable character. :cry:

[Goldenboko]

At the moment futuristic stuff sells. Look at Mass Effect 2. When a game comes out and blows away critics and sells ridiculously that appears to be approaching that old school fantasy feel (no, Dragon Age was not that game) Square will decide whether Old Skool Fantasy sells again.
Wasn't XIII in development way before Mass Effect came out?

Yeah, I'm just showing the trend of late. Sci-Fi/Futuristic games appear to be "in".

[Jessweeee♪]

FFXIII seems to be just what I was looking for! FFVII and FFVIII felt a little more like it was meant to be just three or four decades away. After playing FFX I was like, "y'know I really wanted to play around in Zanarkand more :("

So I'm happy with this anyway. Maybe you should give FFXII a try?


(Also I am very happy with FFVIII, it was my first Final Fantasy so it pretty much defines the series for me xD)

[Mirage]

FF14 isn't sci-fi.

It's also not a real Final Fantasy game :D

You're also not a real human.

[Bastian]

Well the games seem to really mix the two. Even in FFVIII, you're still slaying dragons and summoning phantom beasts.
But I don't want a "mix of the two" . . . FF1-FF5 wasn't a mix of the two. They were utter fantasy. VI pushed the envelope of that a bit . . . and then the floodgates opened. :( I want a return to pre VI days in in-game technology and setting. IX gave it to us, but with a cutesy art direction that was acceptable, but . . . I would REALLY love to see a more realistic art style. Or even something unique like a cel-shaded 2.5D style based on Yo:bou::bou::bou::bou:aka Amano art.


And I think FFXII seemed a lot like the game you're looking for. I've never given it much of a look because I remember thinking the gameplay looked weird. I'll have a look at some youtube clips.



And some of us like the settings of games like FFVIII.
Sure. And I'm sure some people would love to see a Final Fantasy game take place in the setting of a set of intestines. I'm just saying that FF1-5 had a similar setting and I haven't really liked any FF game since (apart from IX) and so would like a return to that style of setting.


Besides FFX/X-2 and FFXII were hardly completely futuristic in tone.
I'm not familiar with XII just yet, but as far as X/X-2 goes . . . I forgot to specify "Eurocentric" in my "medieval fantasy" descriptor. :P


At the moment futuristic stuff sells. Look at Mass Effect 2. When a game comes out and blows away critics and sells ridiculously that appears to be approaching that old school fantasy feel (no, Dragon Age was not that game) Square will decide whether Old Skool Fantasy sells again.
WarCrack isn't an RPG per se, but it is super commercially popular and takes place in such a setting.

[Goldenboko]

And I think FFXII seemed a lot like the game you're looking for. I've never given it much of a look because I remember thinking the gameplay looked weird. I'll have a look at some youtube clips.

If you want the gameplay to stay exactly the same throughout the series, you just can't expect Square to do that. Even from I-VI they had to improve it, taking it from turn-based, to ATB, to a more customized ATB. If Square kept the same gameplay, the series would quickly become bland and lose fans quickly.

[Levian]

Bastian:

I agree with you that XIII from the looks of it, looks too techy and futuristic, especially for my taste. However, I personally didn't think FFVII through X were very techy, so I imagine FFXIII must look like friggen Star Wars to you.

VII only really had Midgar, once you got outside that place, there weren't really any developed places around.

X only had Zanarkand for about 10 minutes, after that you were shoved away to a world that wouldn't even touch machines, how can that be a futuristic game? :D

I wouldn't say VIII was futuristic, it was definitely modern however. I wouldn't say a flying garden is much more futuristic than a MagiTek Factory anyway.


At the moment futuristic stuff sells.

Ugh, I've noticed.

[Mirage]

I'm personally a big fan of near-future settings.

[Bastian]

If you want the gameplay to stay exactly the same throughout the series, you just can't expect Square to do that. Even from I-VI they had to improve it, taking it from turn-based, to ATB, to a more customized ATB. If Square kept the same gameplay, the series would quickly become bland and lose fans quickly.
Well, I see how that would bore some people. But I have friends who can't even stand ATB and turn those features off because it was too much of a change from turn-based. I prefer ATB myself.




VII only really had Midgar, once you got outside that place, there weren't really any developed places around.
I wouldn't know. I was totally turned off by the tech-y setting for the first few hours or however long and stopped playing VII.


X only had Zanarkand for about 10 minutes, after that you were shoved away to a world that wouldn't even touch machines, how can that be a futuristic game? :D
No idea. All the trailers back in the day made it look super tech-y so I never played it.


I wouldn't say VIII was futuristic, it was definitely modern however. I wouldn't say a flying garden is much more futuristic than a MagiTek Factory anyway.
By "futuristic" I meant post-medieval. :P That's not a good usage of the term, I'll give you that.

[Vermachtnis]

From the sounds of it, you didn't really give these games the time of day. But I agree, I'd like a return to a more European medieval setting. I like high fantasy, low tech settings. But even in the more modern settings of VII and VIII, it was still pretty high fantasy with magic and beasts everywhere.

[Rodney]

Weirdly enough (and you're all welcome to think it's weird, too), I was thinking of submitting a story for Square to use for 15 that would combine some of the old elements and the new ones. Don't have all the details ironed out, but . . . that's what I wanted to do.

They probably wouldn't bite, anyway, but still . . .

[VeloZer0]

I liked the setting of VI and VII quite a bit, but I think a return to series roots would be nice for the next entry.

I don't really like when games have architecture that has a futuristic feel to it, even if the overall level of technology isn't that high. Something like industrial revolution in FFVI is much more appealing to me than the (for lack of a better term) Star Wars ep1-3 styling in later entries.

[Bastian]

From the sounds of it, you didn't really give these games the time of day.
Nope. :) And why would I? I'm completely turned off by their setting. It's like . . . your typical guy sees a trailer for a romantic comedy, and he thinks "ugh, yuck!" . . . Now even if everyone insists that the RomCom had a great plot and interesting characters and such, he's probably never going to go out of his way to see it because he's turned off by romantic comedies. I am turned off by non-medieval high fantasy RPGs. And that wasn't a problem until FFVII.

The one game that S-E HAS made recently that seems to epitomize what I like was developed for the DS and was not released in NA (Final Fantasy Gaiden: 4 Warriors of Light). So even when they DO develop what I like, they half-arse it (put it on a DS) and don't release it outside Japan. Argh!

[Depression Moon]

The thing is romantic comedies can be set in space, in 1930's New York, at the bottom of the ocean etc. That's not applying to the setting you would be right if you were saying you just don't like RPGs so why would you play one, but since the argument is against settings and not genres, that comparison is irrelevant.

[Goldenboko]

At the moment futuristic stuff sells. Look at Mass Effect 2. When a game comes out and blows away critics and sells ridiculously that appears to be approaching that old school fantasy feel (no, Dragon Age was not that game) Square will decide whether Old Skool Fantasy sells again.
WarCrack isn't an RPG per se, but it is super commercially popular and takes place in such a setting.

MMORPG's and RPG's seem to be a different catagory all together. Whereas RPGs are being shoved into Space-Lazer areas, for the most part, most currently huge MMORPG's are set in Medieval-ish ages.

Also, I think for the most part you shouldn't write off any video game until you played it. My latest obsession is Valkyria Chronicles (search my recent posts, I'm sure I've brought it up multiple times), and the SEGA logo on it didn't draw me in. But it came heavily recommended and now I'm obssessed :jess:

[VeloZer0]

If you don't enjoy the setting, I don't see how you can enjoy the game.

For example KH II (only one I've played). I enjoyed the gameplay, but strongly disliked the Disney elements to the game. It was only because of the Final Fantasy characters thrown into the mix that I even picked it up in the first place, and even then I barely got through it. Had it been a Disney only affair, there would have been no point in me ever picking it up, even if it had the most enjoyable gameplay in the world.

Well I agree you should never judge a game by its cover, so to speak, but if the setting of the game is something that you know you will hate it is somewhat of a waste to even try to get into it for gameplay reasons.

[Goldenboko]

If you don't enjoy the setting, I don't see how you can enjoy the game.

I think that the setting really, really, really, REALLY has to not be your cup of tea to not enjoy the game. I usually rate gameplay first, so I could enjoy Naruto if they made the game good, I borrowed one of those games. It wasn't terrible, it had promise, and if they had cracked that potential, I would've been able to deal with any sort of "BELIEVE IT" yelling.

[Jibril]

This thread is amazing

[Rad Bromance]

I've never gotten this "true FANTASY" argument I keep seeing lately. None of the Final Fantasy games have strayed from fantasy as a genre in the least, and anyone who thinks "SWORDS AND KNIGHTS AND WIZARDS AND OMG TOTALLY DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS CARBON COPY = TRUE FANTASY!!!!" doesn't know what "fantasy" is.

Furthermore, I quite like; no, LOVE what the FF series has done by making futuristic elements clash with that which is particularly primitive, all set in within fanciful magical realms. So no, I really hope they don't decide to appease the idea that "fantasy" means "Tolkien wet dream" with XV.

And that's really all I'm going to say here.

[Bastian]

The thing is romantic comedies can be set in space, in 1930's New York, at the bottom of the ocean etc. That's not applying to the setting you would be right if you were saying you just don't like RPGs so why would you play one, but since the argument is against settings and not genres, that comparison is irrelevant.
What you didn't get that I wasn't comparing genres TO settings, but forms of entertainment in general.



I think that the setting really, really, really, REALLY has to not be your cup of tea to not enjoy the game.
I have to disagree. For me, it's very important. I could never be interested in playing an RPG that takes place in a modern setting, nor a Western (cowboys/indians) setting, nor a futuristic setting . . . nor anything post-Renaissance (or the equivalent), I guess. I'm picky, I guess. Or very specific in my video game likes.


I've never gotten this "true FANTASY" argument I keep seeing lately. None of the Final Fantasy games have strayed from fantasy as a genre in the least, and anyone who thinks "SWORDS AND KNIGHTS AND WIZARDS AND OMG TOTALLY DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS CARBON COPY = TRUE FANTASY!!!!" doesn't know what "fantasy" is.
I don't think ANYONE here has said anything of the sort. I'll be the first to admit that you can have a modern or even futuristic setting and it still be a "fantasy" story. What I have been saying is that I have a specific brand of fantasy I like (high fantasy) which FF adhered to for the first five games and then abandoned, only to return to it once more in IX.

I'm just ranting/wishing that I get some more of the old stuff in a future FF. Especially soon.


Furthermore, I quite like; no, LOVE what the FF series has done by making futuristic elements clash with that which is particularly primitive,
I like that up unto a point. I like the Tower of Babil and the Giant of Babil in FFIV. I like the robot in FFI. I like small, tiny pieces of such technology to exist in that sort of world. Small enough to not make much of an impact on the setting at large, but potent enough to make you wonder.

I like that in books, too.

The Wayfarer Redemption series is absolutely high fantasy. Yet in one brief paragraph the characters are wandering through an ancient tunnel and note that the floor of the tunnel is a strange black substance with faded yellow lines stretching down it. And that's it. Just enough to make you wonder.

[VeloZer0]

If you don't enjoy the setting, I don't see how you can enjoy the game.

I think that the setting really, really, really, REALLY has to not be your cup of tea to not enjoy the game. I usually rate gameplay first, so I could enjoy Naruto if they made the game good, I borrowed one of those games. It wasn't terrible, it had promise, and if they had cracked that potential, I would've been able to deal with any sort of "BELIEVE IT" yelling.

It depends person to person. For someone like me (and presumably Bastian as well) if the setting is un-enjoyable then the game is like nails on a chalk board. That said, there is a difference between not liking a games setting (lack of things you like), and disliking a games setting (abundance of things you loathe).


I've never gotten this "true FANTASY" argument I keep seeing lately. None of the Final Fantasy games have strayed from fantasy as a genre in the least, and anyone who thinks "SWORDS AND KNIGHTS AND WIZARDS AND OMG TOTALLY DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS CARBON COPY = TRUE FANTASY!!!!" doesn't know what "fantasy" is.

Furthermore, I quite like; no, LOVE what the FF series has done by making futuristic elements clash with that which is particularly primitive, all set in within fanciful magical realms. So no, I really hope they don't decide to appease the idea that "fantasy" means "Tolkien wet dream" with XV.

And that's really all I'm going to say here.

I've never been hugely on top of taxonomy, but I think that is referred to as "high fantasy". Seeing as airships and technologically advanced ancient civilizations are somewhat of a mainstay of the 'classic' FF titles, I don't think the argument that FF ever fit into this classification is valid.

[Laddy]

I like both settings, but I prefer a more "modern age" setting like VII or VIII, with a more contemporary feel.

What I want is Middle Age Africa used in more RPG's. That's why I loved Guild Wars Nightfall so much. <3

I'm a sucker for Africa.

[Crowseye]

I like SE's desire to explore how to do "fantasy" in different types of settings, but I do think it's time the series tries its hand again at a more traditional medieval fantasy type of game.

Personally, I'd like to see XV as a serious game (including reflecting XIII's effort at more realistic-looking humans and creatures as opposed to IX's emphasis on anime-ish caricatures), set in a medieval fantasy-style world and taking the old job classes out for a spin using modern technology: black mage cults in their blue robes and witch's hats, white mages in their white robes with red-slashed sleeves, armored knights, ninjas with throwing stars, red mages with cavalier hats, air"ships", blue magic, the old summons including Ramuh, Ifrit, and Leviathan...

I wouldn't want a retread of the old job systems, but come up with something that suits the modern gaming experience using the traditional job designs.

Hardware has advanced a ton since the days of IX, and especially the I-V era, and it would be nice to see how a medieval fantasy world would turn out in modern hi-def.

(As an aside, I'd also like to see SE try to make a futuristic FF that didn't take itself so seriously)

[No.78]

I don't dislike the newer games at ALL, but I would love it if XV was a return to ye olde elemental crystals and job system formula, but perhaps with a twist to bring it up to speed... How does job fusion sound? xD

[rubah]

Perhaps they feel they have already done them. It's something they rehashed four or five times, after all.

[ANGRYWOLF]

have left...
Sakaguichi is gone.
Matsuno is gone.
The people who worked on the mana games, the ogre battle games and others that were somewhat old school have left .

I expect we'll see mostly blended games that have magic with a pro-modern setting for some time.

:p

[Mo-Nercy]

Maybe new gamers to the Final Fantasy series are a bit turned off by games set in medieval-esqe worlds. They may ascribe playing such a game to the notion of being 'super nerdy' as images of tabletop Dungeons and Dragons and being labelled a social outcast assault the mind.

'Cool' games these days are futuristic. They have big robots in them and edgy terms like Paradigm Shift instead of Class Change. And guns. Nothing makes games cool and socially acceptable more than guns.

So yeah, it's a little sad to see SE going further and further into this direction, but look at VIII and IX. They came right after one another and couldn't be more different in terms of setting. So who knows, maybe XV will be a game designed in the old school manner.

In any case, with the Fabula Nova Crystallis project in the works, it's going to good long while before we hear anything about XV anyway.

[arcanedude34]

IX gave it to us, but with a cutesy art direction
Yfrghble. GRHGKBLSD!!!
I'm sharpening my knife, kupo.

[VeloZer0]

I thought FFIX was easily one of the best of the series, but the art style wasn't my favorite. It is possible to respect the game for what it is and still not like the art style.

[arcanedude34]

I thought FFIX was easily one of the best of the series, but the art style wasn't my favorite. It is possible to respect the game for what it is and still not like the art style.
Yeah, but it's not "cutesy." It's not super-realistic like FFVIII, but it's HARDLY cutesy.

[Flying Arrow]

^ It has waddling hippo parents and rat-kids, stubby-armed-and-legged black mages walking around everywhere, a frog/jellyfish as a king, moogles sending letters via a moogle-run post office, and half a main cast that look like they range from 4 to 8-years-old. I got a chuckle out of almost every scene early on. The plot doesn't end up being very cutesy, but the setting is - which is probably the main reason why I find IX more unsettling than the other games (and not it a good way).

[arcanedude34]

So? VIII had NORG, the chimera bros., a girl who runs around calling people 'meanie,' another one who thinks everything can be solved with 'Love! And! Peace!' Zell is just a giant caricature of Shonen Jump protagonists (ie- those manga characters like Naruto who are the REASON for Ritalin), and Squall is basically a six-year-old's vision of how a grown-up acts. One of the main antagonists hass insults like "chicken wuss." Robin Williams as headmaster, furry midget lions running around, plus the main characte has a poofy leather jacket that gives him a larger body-mass than a pro-football player. And that was the most "realistic" game in the series.

[Flying Arrow]

So the presence of all the things I mentioned makes IX a rather cute-looking game. VIII's characters have silly quirks and bizarre designs but none of them are actually a 3-foot-tall child in an over sized coat with huge glowing eyes peeking out from under a big floppy hat or a purple-haired toddler with a baby moogle living in her pocket.

[arcanedude34]

So the presence of all the things I mentioned makes IX a rather cute-looking game. VIII's characters have silly quirks but none of them are a 3-foot-tall child in an over sized coat with huge glowing eyes peeking out from under a big floppy hat.
No, but there aren't any diva moogles in IX either.

[VeloZer0]

Cutsie is a very subjective term, and I think the art style of FFIX falls within the acceptable boundaries of the word. If they were to describe the game as a whole in those terms they would deserve a bloody nose though.

[demondude]

So the presence of all the things I mentioned makes IX a rather cute-looking game. VIII's characters have silly quirks but none of them are a 3-foot-tall child in an over sized coat with huge glowing eyes peeking out from under a big floppy hat.
No, but there aren't any diva moogles in IX either.

Vivi was a Black Mage. There's nothing different to the appearance of him and every other traditional Black Mage in the series, so that argument doesn't really hold ground. :p

[VeloZer0]

I dunno, Vivi seemed to be a very childlike render of a Black Mage. He is obviously designed to appear childlike in comparison to the other Black Mages in the game, even when discounting the size differences. Though we don't have any other 3D Black Mage renders to compare to, I always imagined they were closer to the more adult looking models.

[P4ine]

Because it's BORING to have the same stuff SEVENTEEN times.

(17 because there're gonna be 17 FFs... I know they have not released seventeen yet, but imagine every FF had the same mid-age-bla-bla atmosphere, that'd be horrible.)

I'm opposed to the old flavor (which doesn't mean I don't like the old FF games), but a NEW, non-futuristic flavor would improve the series indeed.

[Slothy]

When they get around to making FFXV, I just hope that Hiroyuki Itō is directing. It had been a long time since I looked at what he's worked on and done, but he's pretty much been responsible for the best entries in the series in some way or another (with the small misstep of apparently designing FFVIII's battle system, but it was at least a good idea even if the implementation didn't really work well, and even the best have the occasional bad idea).

[Wolf Kanno]

I read this amusing and most likely fanboy flame inducing blog and quickly thought of this thread...

Five Ways to Fix Final Fantasy | EgoTV (http://egotvonline.com/2010/04/08/five-ways-to-fix-final-fantasy/)

I don't necessarily agree with much of this but it was amusing to read nonetheless.

[VeloZer0]

3. Create a side series for the DS or Wii Ware
:twak:
Though I stringently dislike what is entailed in being a 'Wii game', I felt the underlying message about putting graphics on the back burner was spot on.

Other than that I though everything on the list was very good. What is interesting (for those who haven't read it) is that there was no comment about stuff like Fantasy/Sci-Fi or 'returning to the series roots because the apocalypse is upon us', but more a discussion of what game play/design conventions have been adopted or have changed in nature due to hardware.

[Del Murder]

FFVII was sci-fi and it was awesome. FFXII was more medieval but not as good.

I thought that blog hit some stuff on the head, especially the show not tell part. I wish we could see something like FFVI or FFVII with a next-gen feel. Don't make the same game again but at least use some traditional elements. I thought that the DQ series made the transition to next-gen the best with DQVIII. Pretty much flawless. Why can't FF do this? It's the same damn company.

I liked XIII but I did miss some of the traditional aspects. It would be cool to have a world map and an airship you could fly around in again. Do it like Secret of Mana, where the world is all connected on the ground but you are still able to fly around over it to any destination you choose. That game is like 15 years old, surely they can do this in 3D.

[Forsaken Lover]

another one who thinks everything can be solved with 'Love! And! Peace!'

Not true. Selphie was all for shooting President Deling with a rocket launcher or skinning the Moonba to sneak out of the Desert Prison.
She also had no qualms about letting missiles drop on probably other populated areas, as long as the Garden was safe.

Selphie is a cute and adorable girl but that masks her violent, murderous nature.

And it's awesome.

Oh and just to kind of be on-topic, being a superior Final Fantasy doesn't mean being a superior game. Example: FFXII felt more like a Final Fantasy than X did but I think X was vastly superior when it come to story and most of the characters.

It's simply the fact 12's style seemed more in-line with FF than 10's.

[black orb]

>>> FF games need more demons and churches..:luca: