Could 3D work with a cartoon?

[MJN SEIFER]

Not a CGI film, but an actual drawn cartoon, like an Anime or a cartoon like Disney films where before they went all CGI...

[Tavrobel]

Probably not. One of the keys to suspension of disbelief in animation is not mixing animation styles.

Either that, or you're going to fall into the uncanny valley somewhere.

[Slothy]

So you mean, would 3D work alongside hand drawn animation? I only have to point you to Futurama and Beauty and the Beast to prove that yes, they can work. The key is to intigrate the CGI well with the hand drawn art style, and to really use it only when it allows you to do something you couldn't do easily with hand drawn animation.

[MJN SEIFER]

I'm slightly confused by your answers, so sorry if you realized what I'm about to explain; but I don't just mean 3D drawings, I mean 3D Glasses 3D - stuff flying out at you, feeling you're "in" the film. That stuff.

[NorthernChaosGod]

Basically you want Avatar but hand drawn?

I don't see why it really couldn't work, but it would probably take a massive effort to achieve.

[Slothy]

I'd think it'd be more effort than it's worth. It's easy to render CGI from two slightly different perspectives or film actual film with two cameras simultaneously, but I'd imagine actually drawing or altering hand drawn art to appear as though it was drawn from two different perspectives would be next to impossible to get right or at the very least an absurd amount of work.

[Mirage]

You'd need to draw everything from two different viewpoints, so it'd both be twice as much stuff to draw, plus all the work it would take to draw by hand the same scene from two different perspectives. With 3D movies, this is pretty simple because you already have the entire scene modelled, and just need to render the scene again from a slightly different viewpoint and the computers would automatically get the right perspective, and the same with live-action movies where you'd just need to use two cameras side by side.

Because of that, I'd say it's safe to say it would be an enormous amount of extra work, and I think you'd be better off just modelling it all in 3D and render it with cel shading.

-edit-
Oh look who posted while I was posting. Damn you!

[MJN SEIFER]

Got it. Thanks.

[Rostum]

Probably not. One of the keys to suspension of disbelief in animation is not mixing animation styles.

Either that, or you're going to fall into the uncanny valley somewhere.

Wrong.

There's so much mixed media out there!

Even the latest traditional hand drawn Disney film 'Princess and the Frog' used CGI, and many beautiful traditionally animated feature films before it. This does not break the suspsenion of disbelief.

Also, I don't believe this falls into the uncanny valley. Do you even know what that is? Perhaps you should consider looking at Beoulve, Spirits Within and Polar Express for some examples. It has nothing to do with mixing styles or mediums.

Edit:

And you're talking about actual 3D viewing for a traditional animation? I was under the impression you were talking about mixed media. Hmm... It can certainly be done. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head though. I don't really see the point of it though. Then again, I don't really see the point of 3D viewing in general.

[Tavrobel]

There's so much mixed media out there!

Even the latest traditional hand drawn Disney film 'Princess and the Frog' used CGI, and many beautiful traditionally animated feature films before it. This does not break the suspsenion of disbelief.

I know what the uncanny valley is, and I've seen every single one of those movies. I hate every single one. I do not believe that it is easy at all to integrate two different styles of animation without extreme effort, even if they exist, which I do not deny. What I thought he was asking for was that if 3D "stuff" could work inside of a 2D drawn cartoon, and I stated that it wasn't, and gave my reasoning.

Although he's since clarified that he was referring to stuff like Avatar, I think it's a waste of money, but if the technological trend is heading in that direction, it's not worth it to stop it. Plus, wearing 3D glasses sucks when you have actual glasses.

It does fall into the uncanny valley for me. There is a certain disturbance that I feel when I see attempts at rendering the human body in animation. Is that not the valley?

Please don't stuff words into my mouth when I wasn't saying any of those things.

But, if you would like some examples of poorly integrated 3D animations in traditional 2D animated cartoons, I am more than happy to provide if you'd like them. Would you like to insult my intelligence again, or would you rather have me just give you examples right now so I can show you my original point, which you seem to have missed?

[Laddy]

Gorillaz music videos are a perfect example of it working well.

Which is why I'm really hoping the Gorillaz movie rumors are true.

[JKTrix]

Ripley's Believe It Or Not museum in Manhattan was showing an episode of Spongebob in their 4D theatre the last time I went there.

[blackmage_nuke]

Mixed media topic: I think there are certain animes/cartoons that integrate the 3d+2d thing well, Basquash is a brilliant example. Also offtopic I love the sprite based+3d environment of Xenogears.

Actual topic: It would be very hard to draw every scene twice from too different angles but i think a cheap 3d affect which makes animated cells look like cardboard cutouts wouldnt be too difficult.

[Slothy]

Would you like to insult my intelligence again, or would you rather have me just give you examples right now so I can show you my original point, which you seem to have missed?

Not sure where you got the impression he insulted your intelligence. For the record, Omecle's point is valid. Animation requires quite a bit of suspension of disbelief as it is and some well integrated 3D isn't enough to break that for most people. You're apparently the rare exception.

And as for your original post, you can't fall into uncanney valley territory with traditional hand drawn animation and 3D meant to emulate a hand drawn style being integrated. Uncanny valley is when something starts to look and act almost human to the point that it puts people off because it's not quite there but is far enough that it seems creepy. By simple virtue of the fact that hand drawn animation and integrated 3D aren't trying to realistically emulate humans, they can't really fall into uncanny valley territory. You may be put off by integrating hand drawn and 3D, but it's not because it falls into the uncanny valley. I get your original point, but you did completely misuse the term.


Actual topic: It would be very hard to draw every scene twice from too different angles but i think a cheap 3d affect which makes animated cells look like cardboard cutouts wouldnt be too difficult.

I'm not even sure you could hand draw every scene twice from a slightly different perspective. I think the difference in perspective would be so small as to be almost impossible for the animator to perceive and render accurately. I think the only possible way would be to fake it by perhaps digitally altering the animation after the fact.

[Mo-Nercy]

I might be wrong, but wasn't Space Jam available to watch in cinenas in 3D?

[McLovin']

Valkyria Chronicles is like 3D anime...

[Tavrobel]

By simple virtue of the fact that hand drawn animation and integrated 3D aren't trying to realistically emulate humans, they can't really fall into uncanny valley territory. You may be put off by integrating hand drawn and 3D, but it's not because it falls into the uncanny valley. I get your original point, but you did completely misuse the term.

Ohh, yes, you can. Ever seen that episode of the Simpsons where Homer falls into the 3D world? Yeah, that was stupid and off-putting, so thanks for the uselessness.

[Slothy]

Ohh, yes, you can. Ever seen that episode of the Simpsons where Homer falls into the 3D world? Yeah, that was stupid and off-putting, so thanks for the uselessness.

Even if you found it off putting, it wasn't because it suffered from falling within the uncanny valley. Seriously, learn what the term actually refers to before you use it.

It's meant to refer to things that so closely attempt to emulate human look and movement that the small differences make it look eerie and disturbing because it looks almost real, but not quite. Animation that isn't even attempting to be a realistic depiction of human beings, movement, and expressions can't fall into uncanny valley territory. It can look really bad, but that's all it is. Again, learn what the proper usage of the term because it doesn't mean quite what you seem to think it does..

[Tavrobel]

Thanks for telling me something that I already know.

Seeing as how the trend these days is to get closer and closer to depicting real humans, there will undoubtedly be a point that mixing the two animation styles will begin to depict 3D characters realistically as part of being in something that involves 2D. Okay, 2D won't invoke the uncanny valley (oops if I seemed to state so), but the mixing of 3D which can invoke the valley most certainly is off-putting.

But again, thanks, for telling me something I already know and already know how to use. Really your post was incredibly insightful, and I shall attempt to change my ways in the future. Undoubtedly. No, really. I mean it. Seriously. Like, I am so serious, you cannot even believe how genuine I am in making this statement.

[Mirage]

Homer in 3D world really isn't uncanny valley. What are you talking about?

[rubah]

a 3-D effect with 2-D drawings?

I'm afraid I dont' see the point-- do you want the outlines to appear closer or further away than the drawing, or simple perspective, or even something more akin to Viewmaster?

Actually, Viewmaster might be something along the lines of what you're interested in. You might find one and mess around with it

[NorthernChaosGod]

By simple virtue of the fact that hand drawn animation and integrated 3D aren't trying to realistically emulate humans, they can't really fall into uncanny valley territory. You may be put off by integrating hand drawn and 3D, but it's not because it falls into the uncanny valley. I get your original point, but you did completely misuse the term.

Ohh, yes, you can. Ever seen that episode of the Simpsons where Homer falls into the 3D world? Yeah, that was stupid and off-putting, so thanks for the uselessness.

That was the point of that episode. :colbert:

[Laddy]

lol @ Tav thinking someone was being mean.

[MJN SEIFER]

Ohh, yes, you can. Ever seen that episode of the Simpsons where Homer falls into the 3D world? Yeah, that was stupid and off-putting, so thanks for the uselessness.

Really? That was one of my favorite episodes visually...