>> Should Games go back to cartridges?

[black orb]

>>> Lets debate about this, I know cartridges are more expensive but those also have various advantages, and it looks like blu-ray are not totally scratch proof (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5jEbZt6AIQ&feature=player_embedded)..:luca:
BTW, I stole this interesting topic from another place (http://forums.gametrailers.com/thread/should-games-go-back-to-cartri/1032325)..

[Lightening]

I don't know, I suppose it would be more convenient with cartridges, but I lolled at this exchange in that thread:



How about hell no!!! Cartridges are so fragile! Along with disc.. But if you drop a disc off a building it may just float down. Drop a cartridge off a building and its going down like a stone!


...wtf are you doing dropping games off a building

[Slothy]

No, we should never go back to cartridges. The storage space/dollar cost just isn't high enough, assuming cartridges can even hold the equivalent of a DVD let alone a Blu-Ray without becoming too physically large to be convenient.

And load times aren't as much of an issue these days. Discs read faster these days, most titles hide it well, and they can be minimized with a hard drive install.

[Lightening]

assuming cartridges can even hold the equivalent of a DVD let alone a Blu-Ray without becoming too physically large to be convenient.

we can safely assume that they can, they can hold more than a blu ray.

Kingston 256GB Flash Drive Sold Anywhere but USA (http://www.everythingusb.com/kingston-data-traveler-300-flash-drive-17050.html)

edit: you're probably right about the dollar cost, it will cost more to produce them. The biggest reason to say no to cartridge imo is that it will hinder backward compatibility. new consoles will have new cartridges and then we'll have to hold on to our old consoles if we want to play the old games, playstation 4 cartriges won't play on playstation 5 console for instance. discs are more convenient like that, they're always the same size.

[NorthernChaosGod]

No, we should never go back to cartridges. The storage space/dollar cost just isn't high enough, assuming cartridges can even hold the equivalent of a DVD let alone a Blu-Ray without becoming too physically large to be convenient.

And load times aren't as much of an issue these days. Discs read faster these days, most titles hide it well, and they can be minimized with a hard drive install.

I hate hard drive installs. :mad2:

But I have both a 16GB and 32GB flash drive, I'm sure larger sizes could be used fairly cheaply.

I voted yes because I want retards blowing into their cartridges again when they don't read.

[Yeargdribble]

Carts are nice. I liked them and other than cost there's really no major reason not to go back to them, but I don't care either way for two reasons.

1. It's irrelevant. No manufacturer will ever consider going back to carts especially since you can make your gaming devices multi-functional if they accept things the size of a DVD/CD/BR.

2. It's irrelevant again. Within a decade (probably far less) we won't buy physical games any more anyway and the point will be dually moot. Virtually all games and movies will be digitally distributed in the near future.

[NorthernChaosGod]

Man, I can't be the only person that wants to keep hard copies forever, can I?

[Momiji]

Man, I can't be the only person that wants to keep hard copies forever, can I?

I like hard copies as well. I can't say I'm entirely for digital distribution. It's convenient, but it takes some of the fun out of collecting.

[Yeargdribble]

Man, I can't be the only person that wants to keep hard copies forever, can I?

Me too. I want hard copies forever. I always buy, always a new copy, and I never sell. I love the way the collection looks on my shelf. I'm just being a buzz killing realist about the fact that hard copies are on their way out.

[PuPu]

DS games are pretty much cartridges.

[NorthernChaosGod]

Man, I can't be the only person that wants to keep hard copies forever, can I?

Me too. I want hard copies forever. I always buy, always a new copy, and I never sell. I love the way the collection looks on my shelf. I'm just being a buzz killing realist about the fact that hard copies are on their way out.

Ahh, I see. Yeah, I don't like the way things are headed in media in general. I'm not a fan of The Cloud and all that jazz.

I dearly love my collection of video games all the way back to the NES.

[black orb]

playstation 4 cartriges won't play on playstation 5 console for instance.
>>> And why they would do that?..:luca:

and
1- My biggest issue with cd/dvd/blu-ray is that those things get ruined too easily (money wasted in the end).
2- There will always be hard copies of everything, the digitally distributed stuff is not for everyone.
3- Within a decade (probably far less), 50GB flash drives/cards will be ass-cheap too.

[Bolivar]

I voted YES!

But seriously, no. Blu Rays work better than expected for me with games and movies, for reasons I've stated below, but one tiny tidbit:

digital copies of movies are heavily compressed to not be ridiculously huge (which they still are) and lose quality on various fronts, whereas with Blu Ray offers TONS of options and the optimal quality (assuming it could be better, even I don't utilize half of what they're for, but I'd like to hope one day I will).



we can safely assume that they can, they can hold more than a blu ray.

Kingston 256GB Flash Drive Sold Anywhere but USA (http://www.everythingusb.com/kingston-data-traveler-300-flash-drive-17050.html)


But there's Blu Rays that are even crazier than that (http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/18290/Pioneer-Shows-400GB-Bluray-Disc-1TB-Version-Coming/), not to mention they can run on existing blu ray players so you don't have to worry about backwards comatibility. Not so much being angry/serious as saying WOW this is some crazy ish.


Virtually all games and movies will be digitally distributed in the near future.

Since you said virtually, I kind of agree with you. Still, games aren't getting any smaller (okay, well some are), they're only getting bigger. Even if broadband providers in the US lifted their download-per-month caps (which is a big barrier to digital distribution), there's no way in hell I'm going to download my 50GB(+ potentially) digital copy of Gran Turismo 5. Not to mention clearing it off when I need extra space and re-downloading when I want to play it again. I think we are nearing the feasible systems for DD to take over games, but it's definitely not happening in the "near" future.

That said, I think some games are getting smaller and there will be new and interesting ways to pay for them. Battlefield 1943 is a great example. I could really see a big-name FPS coming out, which is free to play on 1-3 maps. Then you could pay $5 for 3 maps, $10 for 8 or $20 for the full 16. In addition you could buy the single player for $8 and maybe co-op for $7. There's a lot of microeconomic pay systems out there to choose from, and games have really only stuck to one for the longest time.

[Rad Bromance]

No, no and no. Optical discs pretty much have the advantage over everything else thus far.

[Slothy]

I hate hard drive installs. :mad2:

Why? I'm seriously curious. Because aside from taking a few minutes there is no downside I can think of. If it taking a few minutes is actually the issue for you then I recommend practicing patience. The longest install I've seen in the last few years was MGS4 and it was only 12 minutes. If you can't wait 12 minutes then there's something wrong with you.


But I have both a 16GB and 32GB flash drive, I'm sure larger sizes could be used fairly cheaply.

Leave it to me to completely blank on the existence of flash drives momentarily. Still, flash isn't cheap enough yet to be viable, especially on the manufacturers end since it costs more to make. None of it matters since we will likely see digital distribution inside of ten years for every game, and solid state hard drives so read speed becomes an absolute non-issue (not that it's even one now). At that point, even if physical media is still around (which I fully admit it will be) you'll probably see it install completely on the hard drive anyway.


I voted yes because I want retards blowing into their cartridges again when they don't read.

Everyone knows you hit the cartridge against your leg to shake the dust out. Blowing in it just gets moisture all over the connectors.


Man, I can't be the only person that wants to keep hard copies forever, can I?

Hard copies don't, and likely never will, last forever. I say bring on digital distribution. I don't have enough space for this crap anymore.


1- My biggest issue with cd/dvd/blu-ray is that those things get ruined too easily (money wasted in the end).

You have to be pretty careless to ruin any of them, especially Blu-Ray. Put them back in their case when you're done playing them. Otherwise you're just asking for any damage that may happen to them.

[Lightening]

I'm not sure if I understand your question, but I'll try anyway. Of course I can't say for certain that playstation 4 cartridges won't fit in playstation 5, but it's a good guess. As technology progresses old cartridges won't have capacity enough to contain new games for new consoles and they may have to make different cartridges for the new consoles. See NES, SNES and N64 for reference. All produced by Nintendo, 3 different cartridges.


1- My biggest issue with cd/dvd/blu-ray is that those things get ruined too easily (money wasted in the end).

True, cartridges last longer than discs. Although this never happens to me anyway. The last disc of mine that got scratched to death is Tekken 2, and that's 12 or so years ago.


3- Within a decade (probably far less), 50GB flash drives will be ass-cheap too.

the size of the games in 10 years will increase too though. they've definitely increased a lot since the beginning of this decade.

[black orb]

I'm not sure if I understand your question, but I'll try anyway. Of course I can't say for certain that playstation 4 cartridges won't fit in playstation 5, but it's a good guess. As technology progresses old cartridges won't have capacity enough to contain new games for new consoles and they may have to make different cartridges for the new consoles. See NES, SNES and N64 for reference. All produced by Nintendo, 3 different cartridges.
>>> If im not wrong the Nintendo DS used to be compatible with the Gameboy Advance carts..:luca:



1- My biggest issue with cd/dvd/blu-ray is that those things get ruined too easily (money wasted in the end).

True, cartridges last longer than discs. Although this never happens to me anyway. The last disc of mine that got scratched to death is Tekken 2, and that's 12 or so years ago.
>>> You must be very careful with your games then, personally almost all the games i have bought have become unusable (full of scratches and stuff), and that REALLY piss me off..:luca:

No, no and no. Optical discs pretty much have the advantage over everything else thus far.
>>> If someone creates an optical disc thats totally scratch proof, I will agree with you..:luca:
(i voted yes)..


1- My biggest issue with cd/dvd/blu-ray is that those things get ruined too easily (money wasted in the end).

You have to be pretty careless to ruin any of them, especially Blu-Ray. Put them back in their case when you're done playing them. Otherwise you're just asking for any damage that may happen to them.
>>> Well, I like to share my games with brothers, friends, etc. and some people like to rent games too, you cant expect that everyone is going to be extremely careful with their games. In the old days (NES/SNES) this was not an issue at all..:luca:

[Mirage]

Who ever thought blurays would be scratch resistant?

[NorthernChaosGod]

Why? I'm seriously curious. Because aside from taking a few minutes there is no downside I can think of. If it taking a few minutes is actually the issue for you then I recommend practicing patience. The longest install I've seen in the last few years was MGS4 and it was only 12 minutes. If you can't wait 12 minutes then there's something wrong with you.
Install time + hard disk space
Have you kept every game you've ever installed on your computer? I don't know anyone that does, I hear about people reinstalling games all the time. On every console I own I can just pop in the game and start playing.


Leave it to me to completely blank on the existence of flash drives momentarily. Still, flash isn't cheap enough yet to be viable, especially on the manufacturers end since it costs more to make. None of it matters since we will likely see digital distribution inside of ten years for every game, and solid state hard drives so read speed becomes an absolute non-issue (not that it's even one now). At that point, even if physical media is still around (which I fully admit it will be) you'll probably see it install completely on the hard drive anyway.
It doesn't have to happen now, but it could be a possible alternative to optic discs sometime in the future.


Everyone knows you hit the cartridge against your leg to shake the dust out. Blowing in it just gets moisture all over the connectors.
I know that, I never did it. Blowing on them gets saliva and bacteria on the connectors and is likely to rust the metal. I was reminded of this horrible habit by a Facebook group and I would like to see the return or carts so that people ruin their games again.


Hard copies don't, and likely never will, last forever. I say bring on digital distribution. I don't have enough space for this crap anymore.
I didn't mean to say that a hard copy is indestructible or anything, but all of my games are in very good condition and likely will stay that way for at least the remainder of my life. I prefer having a hard copy over a digital copy.

[Slothy]

Install time + hard disk space
Have you kept every game you've ever installed on your computer? I don't know anyone that does, I hear about people reinstalling games all the time. On every console I own I can just pop in the game and start playing.

Actually, yeah I do keep everything on my PC, but I have 1.5 TB's of hard drive space. Even if I wanted to delete something from my main drive I could back it up on my TB storage drive and move it back later. I do delete installs on my PS3, but only when I'm done with a game and probably won't play it for months or even years. Seriously, 10-15 minutes one time isn't really a big deal. I have no idea why some people get so bent out of shape about it.


I didn't mean to say that a hard copy is indestructible or anything, but all of my games are in very good condition and likely will stay that way for at least the remainder of my life. I prefer having a hard copy over a digital copy.

I was being kind of tongue in cheek there which I guess didn't come through. But I do want digital distribution, with the ability to make a backup for convenience preferably.


>>> Well, I like to share my games with brothers, friends, etc. and some people like to rent games too, you cant expect that everyone is going to be extremely careful with their games. In the old days (NES/SNES) this was not an issue at all..

This is why I don't lend games to people I can't trust to take care of them. And that includes cartridge games. You'd be surprised what can happen to them because some people are careless.

[Jiro]

Should they? No. Do I want them too? Yes, purely for nostalgic value. But realistically, not going to happen.

[Loony BoB]

No, purely because the last thing I need is more different storage sizes. While I don't look forward to not having a physical copy of a game in my hand, I do look forward to not having to find storage for all of them. Storage is a pretty big issue for anyone living in a small flat in Europe, I imagine.

[Jessweeee♪]

I'd rather buff out a scratch or two than make myself dizzy blowing on a cartridge :kaodizzy:

[Yeargdribble]

What the hell is wrong with you people that you have scratches all over your discs? If it's either in the console or in the case, it's not getting scratched.

Rather than b**ch about the durability of discs learn some personal responsibility. Sure, some of you might have younger siblings... teach them responsibility. Or, wait until you're out of the house, buy your own console and your own games and don't scratch them the smurf up.

Hell, I've still got tons of PS1 games that I can see myself smoothly in their black surfaces because I took care of them.

[Jessweeee♪]

Some of us were stupid children when we got our PS1 games :(

[Yeargdribble]

I merely meant that I manage to take care of discs that are now about 15 years old. My point is, if you're old enough to post on this forum then you should be old enough to take care of your s**t.

If you pour gas onto a couch and then toss a match at it you don't get to complain about the manufacturer making it too flammable.

If instead of putting the games in their cases you leave them in a pile on the floor next to the console then you can't complain about the scratches.

[Unbreakable Will]

W-.....what? Smurf no.
Take care of the damn discs.
Personally I take care of my things, although I didn't when I had a Ps2 because that damn thing didn't read them half the time due to some fat idiot sitting on it. If I buy a used Xbox 360 game and its damaged I either take it right back or I see if it plays, that smurfing thing played a copied disc of Heavy Metal 2 and that was the worst scratched disc I've ever seen.

...and yeah I actually watched HM2...

[black orb]

No, purely because the last thing I need is more different storage sizes. While I don't look forward to not having a physical copy of a game in my hand, I do look forward to not having to find storage for all of them. Storage is a pretty big issue for anyone living in a small flat in Europe, I imagine.
>>> Dude, I can carry like 5 flash drives in just one of my jeans pockets..:luca:


Rather than b**ch about the durability of discs learn some personal responsibility.
Sure, some of you might have younger siblings... teach them responsibility. Or, wait until you're out of the house, buy your own console and your own games and don't scratch them the smurf up.
>>> So now I have to teach my younger siblings responsibility because of the ineptitude of the gaming industry? man, Im paying for their games so they better create something really good and they better do it fast, and i dont really care if the games get more expensive..:luca:

[Yeargdribble]

Are you seriously going to argue that the onus is on them to make up for your inability to care for your things? You claim they are inept at making things but what about your ineptitude at taking care of things. Discs are the standard. The companies are not out to get you with their fragile little games.

Is it really hard to put the games back in the case?

[black orb]

>>> Again, I never had this problem with my NES and SNES games, no need to put them back to their cases because the games were always inside its case.
Optical disks are not suited for videogames, they are ok for music or movies because thats stuff you watch/hear occasionally, but videogames is something you use almost everyday, with 100+ hours of gameplay, etc, not to mention that most of them are targeted to children/teenagers and these folks really like to abuse things..:luca:

[Loony BoB]

I don't know, I was buying my own music CDs before I was buying my own video games. I agree that it shouldn't be that hard to keep your CDs (DVDs, BR's, etc) in a safe place, however I can also understand that on occasion, you might drop a disc and have it get scratched and it's pretty gutting. Of course, I've personally had more problems with games in cartridges than I have with games on discs. I don't know why - maybe it's because when they're in cartridges you assume they're better off, maybe it's because the parts can move within each other, maybe it's something else, but cartridges were never invincible. Neither are CD's. Everything has a downside for someone out there, so yeah.

[Yeargdribble]

Um... thanks Michael Atkinson. Seriously, games are not mostly targeted at children. Most big title games are M rated these days.

These formats are LESS suited for movies and CDs honestly. If you're playing a game for 100+ hours then you're less likely to be changing the disc. You're constantly changing CDs and DVDs.

This is still irrelevant though. You still should take care of your things rather than whine an industry not making something up to the standard of abuse you throw at it. Some things are fragile. You learn to not be careless with them.

Your whole argument revolves around you being irresponsible and thinking that's okay. Please tell me you're not an adult.

[Loony BoB]

Let's not get snarky, Yeargdribble. I think it's pretty clear that he shares his games with his younger siblings, as he's said on numerous occasions. If I were in black orb's shoes, I'd be telling my siblings that the next time a CD of mine gets scratched, they won't be shared anymore until the CD is replaced (ie, a new one paid for).

[black orb]

Of course, I've personally had more problems with games in cartridges than I have with games on discs. I don't know why - maybe it's because when they're in cartridges you assume they're better off, maybe it's because the parts can move within each other, maybe it's something else, but cartridges were never invincible. Neither are CD's. Everything has a downside for someone out there, so yeah.
>>> You had more problems with cartridges? thats weird. I remember having some of my SNES games being thrown into water, dirt, dropped from the second floor, getting burnt, etc. and still worked fine..:luca:

Please tell me you're not an adult.
>>> Want to know my age? go and see my profile..:luca:

[Yeargdribble]

Oooh... so you're more of one of those, "well, back in my day" types.

So you're 3 years older than me and have trouble taking care of discs?

[black orb]

>>> Does age has something to do with this??..:luca:

[Yeargdribble]

Well if you were 15 then I might write off your responsibility as having something to do with your age, but at 30 you have no excuse to be so sadly irresponsible that you can't keep discs from getting scratched.

[black orb]

>>> Ok I get it, lets get back on topic please?..:luca:

[Jessweeee♪]

While I don't think it's serious enough of an issue to stop using discs or change how they're made, sometimes they get jacked up even if you're very responsible about them.

My brother's 360 has chewed a couple of his games and you can just ♪TJ Gaga♪ about the time his PS2 shattered FFXII into pieces D:

EDIT:

And the time it screeched and scratched up Guitar Hero D:

[Slothy]

>>> So now I have to teach my younger siblings responsibility because of the ineptitude of the gaming industry?

Might I suggest that if you can't trust your younger siblings to treat your stuff properly that you don't let them use it? I have an eight year old brother in law who isn't allowed to so much as touch a game case on the rare occasion he's here visiting. At his age I had no trouble treating my CD's and things properly, but I know he doesn't. Hence, if he wants to play one of my games I change the disc for him. He knows those are the rules and he's fine with it.

If you know you can't trust your siblings not to scratch your stuff but keep letting them use it then you can't really complain.


and i dont really care if the games get more expensive..:luca:

Please don't tell me you can't remember the days when we paid twice what we do now for games, because those days sucked really bad. And looking at Newegg's prices for USB flash drives, I think we'd be even worse off price wise at the moment if you had to factor in game development costs on top of those. Granted prices might fall quickly, but I'm not sure I'd trust companies to lower prices as things got cheaper if they magically got to charge $100+ again and have people actually accept that.

[black orb]

>>> This is a pretty good argument too (found at that other place)..:luca:


I'd gladly pay a little more fore each game if both the durability increased and the console became less likely to need repair. The cost of the console would also go down because it would need less hardware. The BR drive is what made the PS3 so expensive at launch. The 360's disc drive is notorious for scratching games if made before 2007. Why not use a flash card?

Also, have you noticed how cheap high-capacity drives are becoming? Yeah, they may retail for 10-20 bucks, but that's not what they cost to produce. The raw materials needed to make a flash card (a small circuit board, memory die, and plastic, copper) cost pennies--definitely under $5 each to produce. I wasn't suggesting we all go spend hundreds of dollars on a flash drive for each game.

[Bolivar]

Man I can't believe this is still going on and people are actually arguing about durability!!!

Going back to cartridges is a fun thought, hell I'd welcome it with open arms, but it's not practical by any means.




I'd gladly pay a little more fore each game if both the durability increased and the console became less likely to need repair. The cost of the console would also go down because it would need less hardware. The BR drive is what made the PS3 so expensive at launch. The 360's disc drive is notorious for scratching games if made before 2007. Why not use a flash card?

Also, have you noticed how cheap high-capacity drives are becoming? Yeah, they may retail for 10-20 bucks, but that's not what they cost to produce. The raw materials needed to make a flash card (a small circuit board, memory die, and plastic, copper) cost pennies--definitely under $5 each to produce. I wasn't suggesting we all go spend hundreds of dollars on a flash drive for each game.

That argument's wrong for many reasons. First of all, no one should reasonably expect their console to eat discs. The fact that 360's have done this is completely unexcusable. I never heard of PS2's doing this, but I know they really weren't well put together at first either.

Second, I'm glad I got a PS3 with a Blu Ray drive. If you were a conscious shopper, you could easily find a PS3 for a reasonable price even in its first year. I know because I bought my 60GB refurbished for $300, what the console is selling for now without backwards compatibility and linux. How much do 50GB flash drives cost, btw?


Games should be cheaper (at least by now) anyway and I wouldn't want to pay more when my discs going back to the ps1 era still work fine. I can say truthfully right now I've never had a disc get scratched up since I got my first Playstation.

[NorthernChaosGod]

I've never had a disc damaged enough to even affect gameplay or playback, but some have gotten some minor scratches over time. Blu-Ray discs are supposed to be a lot less durable than your average CD/DVD, and I'm pretty sure a scratch on a higher capacity disc would be more damaging than on a lower capacity disc.

I'm not saying it's a serious issue, because all my discs are either in use or in their cases, but it can be an issue. It's not like we're robots and never drop anything.

Isn't the PS2 notorious for disc read errors because the laser comes out of alignment or isn't as strong as it was supposed to be? I can't really recall any sort of issue similar to that with a cartridge based console.

[Yeargdribble]

Yeah, I think long before we should start complaining about the durability of the media itself we should worry about the durability of consoles. 360s are an absolute joke. I don't care if they give me a warranty, it's still hassle for me to get it replaced if it goes bad. That's certainly something you can pin on manufacture when, with great care and reasonable use, a device can simply stop functioning well within its lifespan.


I don't want to pay more for a more durable game. What's worse is I fear that as we approach digital distribution we won't see any cut in the price even though production cost will be cut significantly. I think the standard price would easily shift up another $10 is the next 5 years regardless of distribution.

What's worse is that the first parties will control the market. No, big sales at Best Buy. No used games. Look at the PSN Store; specifically look at PSP games. Rarely is there fluctuation. I have the feeling that there will be equally little bend as we see $60 games hit these mediums.


Sure Steam is fantastic and I trust that Valve will always keep that reasonable, that's one company. At best we'll see multi-plat games drop a bit in pricing wars, but for all of the GoWs, Uncharteds, Halos and the like, the first parties are gonna wanna keep the price at full premium far longer than what than what might happen on a retail shelf.

[Shiny]

I would never want to go back to the days of blowing in a cartridge. Disks are easier to compartmentalize. I can fit two sometimes three disks into one case. Far easier that way.

[Slothy]

but for all of the GoWs, Uncharteds, Halos and the like, the first parties are gonna wanna keep the price at full premium far longer than what than what might happen on a retail shelf.

I'm not totally convinced on that, but only because Gamestop not only rarely lowers prices (except for on unpopular games, yearly releases like sports titles, or literally a couple of years after release), they continually gank people on used games. As if it isn't bad enough they give someone $20-30 credit for a game tops and charge you $5 under the price of a new copy, they'll keep charging those prices long after it makes any sense. When I went to get a copy of Little Big Planet for my sister for Christmas they had used copies for $65 Canadian and new game of the year copies with all of the DLC for $70.

Even if console makers do gank us on downloadable games we won't be a lot worse off.

[Mirage]

well, a cartridge that could hold 8 GB (about the same size as a double layer DVD) wouldn't have to be much bigger than 1x1x0.2 inches. I'm pretty sure they could fit 16 GB or more into that size too, but it'd start to get a bit expensive. However, the cost of carts of those sizes would probably decrease as that kind of storage space would be necessary for games. It could be needed for games with a lot of high resolution video, such as FF13, but most games don't rely that much on prerendered stuff anymore, I think.

I'm really just bothered by the cost of games in either case, and I don't have a big problem taking care of my games. In fact, by the time my discs are too scratched up, I usually have an emulator for that console, or modded console that can play backup games ;)

Also, I sometimes put more than one disc into a single cover, but I try not to, because it seems they get scratched up more easily that way.

[Jiro]

A lot of my PS1 games are now absolutely useless due to scratching. Not because of irresponsibility, or even accidents, but because of general wear and tear. Repeated use of a game (ie taking it out of the case, putting it into the console and then removing it and putting it back in the case) does sometimes scratch the disks.

And I have always been careful not to scratch disks. Still happens.

[Bolivar]

Blu-Ray discs are supposed to be a lot less durable than your average CD/DVD

Hm??? :erm:

[Yeargdribble]

Blu-Ray discs are supposed to be a lot less durable than your average CD/DVD

Hm??? :erm:

This was only true with really old BR discs. This is due to data being much closer to the surface of the disc. However, for quite some time BR have been required to have a hard-coating on them which is highly scratch resistant.

While this is available for DVDs and CDs not all companies opt to use it, but BR discs are required to have said coating in one for or another. So in actuality BR are far more durable than most DVD/CDs.

[NorthernChaosGod]

Fucking outdated news. :mad:

[Loony BoB]

It should be noted that there is one problem for scratching of CDs to which age has little effect. The flimsy cases the CDs are placed in. Some of them allow them to slide around inside the box really easily due to a lack of decent gripping mechanism, or alternatively the gripping mechanism shatters into many tiny pieces quite easily (often pre-purchase, I've noted with annoyance) and the discs are damaged by these tiny pieces. Some casing is good, some sucks.

[Jessweeee♪]

That makes me think of this time I bought a brand new CD and broke it in half trying to get it out of the case for the first time ;_;

[Yeargdribble]

It should be noted that there is one problem for scratching of CDs to which age has little effect. The flimsy cases the CDs are placed in. Some of them allow them to slide around inside the box really easily due to a lack of decent gripping mechanism, or alternatively the gripping mechanism shatters into many tiny pieces quite easily (often pre-purchase, I've noted with annoyance) and the discs are damaged by these tiny pieces. Some casing is good, some sucks.

This was (and is) a problem with the old, brittle CD-style jewel cases, but all current gen console games come in DVD style cases where I've scarcely ever seen this happen.

However, you bring up an interesting point about resale. That's where scratching would be more of an issue and I might not give so much grief about you caring for your game. At the same time, if you're doing that then you know the risk you're running.

It also means it's in the publishers' best interests to keep games on a more flimsy medium since they want to cut out second-hand sales as much as possible.

[black orb]

>>> Well is not my job to defend other people arguments especially if they are from a different place, but what the hell..:luca:

Man I can't believe this is still going on and people are actually arguing about durability!!!

Going back to cartridges is a fun thought, hell I'd welcome it with open arms, but it's not practical by any means.




I'd gladly pay a little more fore each game if both the durability increased and the console became less likely to need repair. The cost of the console would also go down because it would need less hardware. The BR drive is what made the PS3 so expensive at launch. The 360's disc drive is notorious for scratching games if made before 2007. Why not use a flash card?

Also, have you noticed how cheap high-capacity drives are becoming? Yeah, they may retail for 10-20 bucks, but that's not what they cost to produce. The raw materials needed to make a flash card (a small circuit board, memory die, and plastic, copper) cost pennies--definitely under $5 each to produce. I wasn't suggesting we all go spend hundreds of dollars on a flash drive for each game.

That argument's wrong for many reasons. First of all, no one should reasonably expect their console to eat discs. The fact that 360's have done this is completely unexcusable. I never heard of PS2's doing this, but I know they really weren't well put together at first either.
>>> So, is true that the 360's disc drive scratched the games..:luca:


Second, I'm glad I got a PS3 with a Blu Ray drive. If you were a conscious shopper, you could easily find a PS3 for a reasonable price even in its first year. I know because I bought my 60GB refurbished for $300, what the console is selling for now without backwards compatibility and linux.

>>> That doesnt change the fact that the BR drive is what made the PS3 expensive at launch and the cost of the console would also go down because it would need less hardware..:luca:

.
How much do 50GB flash drives cost, btw?

>>> For the manufacturers, like $5. For a normal person like us, lots more.. But I can see the problem here because game developers and distributors don't make flash drives.. Plus this things get more and more cheaper every day..


Games should be cheaper (at least by now) anyway and I wouldn't want to pay more when my discs going back to the ps1 era still work fine.
>>> I`d rather have cheaper consoles..:luca:


I can say truthfully right now I've never had a disc get scratched up since I got my first Playstation.
>>> Good for you, sadly everyone isnt that lucky with their games..:luca:


I would never want to go back to the days of blowing in a cartridge.
>>> Flash drives are nothing like the old cartrigdes, so there is no need to go to those old days again..:luca:

[NorthernChaosGod]

That makes me think of this time I bought a brand new CD and broke it in half trying to get it out of the case for the first time ;_;
Oh, man! You have no idea how many times I've felt that I was going to snap a disc before getting it out of it's case for the first time. It's fucking ridiculous.


It should be noted that there is one problem for scratching of CDs to which age has little effect. The flimsy cases the CDs are placed in. Some of them allow them to slide around inside the box really easily due to a lack of decent gripping mechanism, or alternatively the gripping mechanism shatters into many tiny pieces quite easily (often pre-purchase, I've noted with annoyance) and the discs are damaged by these tiny pieces. Some casing is good, some sucks.
Yeah, I hate that :bou::bou::bou::bou:. If even one of those little plastics :bou::bou::bou::bou:s breaks off the CD doesn't sit tight at all anymore. As Yearg said, the DVD style cases are so much better.

[Depression Moon]

CDs seemed to be the worst case for me. I have four copies of FFIX and each one of those copies has at least one disc that doesn't fully function right. i have two copies of VIII and I never had the chance to replace my copy of Threads of Fate.

Personally scratched games that I owned during the DVD generation is a lot smaller. The only ones I got that I had problems with scratches were ones that I bought second hand. So that's just Tekken 5 and Def Jam FFNY.

Since the awesome Blu-ray generation, none.


To above two or three in one case? Wouldn't that make the extra ones fall out when you open the case?

[ANGRYWOLF]

cost and storage capacity so the answer is no.:)

[Loony BoB]

It should be noted that flash drives are far more likely to go faulty (or missing) than a blu-ray disc in my experience. It's all down to the manufacturer and user, once again. If one of black orb's siblings were to ever-so-slightly be clumsy when removing or inserting a flash drive to a USB port then it could easily be buggered. It also brings out the potential for users to rather easily accidentally wipe the data. I'm not sure how secure a USB flash drive can be when it comes to disabling the ability to write/erase data from it, but CDs obviously have protection against that sort of thing.

I can see flash drives being used in the future but I don't look forward to it... I'd prefer blu-ray or even pure downloads.

[Yeargdribble]

I can say truthfully right now I've never had a disc get scratched up since I got my first Playstation.
>>> Good for you, sadly everyone isnt that lucky with their games..:luca:

Don't chalk it up to luck. Chalk it up to care. You seem set on making the case that disc based media will fracture and scratch just from being looked upon.

It seems that most people don't have a problem with disc media. If they did there would have been a much larger outcry much longer ago. The cases where someone has damaged their disc are generally due to crappy CD jewel cases breaking and not holding the disc tightly. For all intents and purposes, that argument is currently moot because all of the major consoles use DVD style cases which are less prone to this and the cases are easily replaceable in the odd event it does happen.

These discs aren't ages old parchment that crumble in your hands. If they are getting significantly damaged to the point of not functioning then it's more likely error on the part of the owner than on the part of the manufacturers.

[black orb]

cost and storage capacity so the answer is no.:)
>>> Storage is not an issue anymore and cost, not an issue either (atleast for the manucaturers)..:luca:

It should be noted that flash drives are far more likely to go faulty
>>> Just the bad quality ones..:luca:


If one of black orb's siblings were to ever-so-slightly be clumsy when removing or inserting a flash drive to a USB port then it could easily be buggered. It also brings out the potential for users to rather easily accidentally wipe the data. I'm not sure how secure a USB flash drive can be when it comes to disabling the ability to write/erase data from it, but CDs obviously have protection against that sort of thing.

I can see flash drives being used in the future but I don't look forward to it... I'd prefer blu-ray or even pure downloads.
>>> Cartridges will be more like flash cards than flash drives, if they make it like flash drives an usb port is too slow they would need a firewire port or something better, and obviously you wont be able to erase the data either..:luca:

>>> One more thing, going back to carts will make things harder for piracy..:luca:

[Mirage]

Or easier. Just look at acekard for NDS. Costs nothing (20 bucks is nothing), doesn't void warranty, can be installed and used by a 10 year old.

And even an USB 2.0 flash drive is gonna be faster than the bluray drive in the PS3, partially because there is no real seek time on such devices, and because 480 Mbit/s is still actually 60 MB/s (minus some overhead and crap, lol) (oh and there's USB3 too now, which would probably be easily available by the time the next consoles come out). It's the flash storage inside the USB drives that is the limitation on most USB thumbdrives, not the interface.

Regardless, the use of USB thumbdrives for games isn't likely. It'll probably be some proprietary interface, because those guys think security through obscurity works ;).

It would also be easy to make an USB thumbdrive read-only.

[Slothy]

And even an USB 2.0 flash drive is gonna be faster than the bluray drive in the PS3, partially because there is no real seek time on such devices, and because 480 Mbit/s is still actually 60 MB/s (minus some overhead and crap, lol) (oh and there's USB3 too now, which would probably be easily available by the time the next consoles come out). It's the flash storage inside the USB drives that is the limitation on most USB thumbdrives, not the interface.

You beat me to it. Even on the USB 3.0 being far faster than USB 2.0.

[Mirage]

I was actually more worried about you proving me wrong on something when I saw your post on the search page :p.

[Yeargdribble]

>>> One more thing, going back to carts will make things harder for piracy..:luca:

My R4 would like to have a word with you. At this point you've made this cart thing into a pet and are actively ignoring anything except what you want to hear on its behalf.


This isn't he binary argument the thread makes it out to be. It won't be carts or discs soon so it matters not. Steam style digital distribution fixes every problem mentioned in this thread.

-piracy
-storage space
-HDD space
-damage

None are an issue with the type of DD that Steam uses.

[NorthernChaosGod]

Except I don't get my pretty case with the manual and disc/cart. :mad2:

[Slothy]

-piracy
-storage space
-HDD space
-damage

None are an issue with the type of DD that Steam uses.

Not quite. Piracy is still possible, and does exist for games like L4D and L4D2, but I really doubt it's as rampant or as easy to get all the benefits of the game through it. I doubt you'd ever be able to play on an official server using a pirated copy which limits your multiplayer options substantially for Valve's games. Other titles wouldn't necessarily have that limitation though.

[Madame Adequate]

Yeah, you can pirate L4D/2 but you can't play them online if you have. For me that would be fine because I dislike human interaction, but for most people, that's kind of the point of the game. xD

[black orb]

Steam style digital distribution fixes every problem mentioned in this thread.
>>> Steam Style DD?. Im totally ignorant about the subject, care to explain?..:luca: