Am I missing something? (Final Boss SPOILERS)

[arcanedude34]

So, you spend half the game trying to find a way out of fighting Oprhan, steadfastly refusing to fufill your Focus of destroying him, and thus Cocoon... then he pops out of the ground and your guys are just like "Hey, let's kill it!"

Was the second half of the game just pointless filler, what with the "choosing our own destiny" stuff, when they pretty much did exactly what they told Dysley they would not do? Or am I missing something?

[Loony BoB]

Haha, actually, I kinda was thinking something similar at the end. I think basically the fal'Cie were intending on all the people dying rather than Cocoon's functionality. They were hoping that the big loss of life would call back the Maker. So yeah, I guess somehow enough people survived the big finale to not bother the Maker, or something. Either way, the human race was secured once more by our rag-tag group of heroes.

[Jings]

Yeah I was under the impression that we were not going to kill Orphan. The end left me a little confused though because his death did lead to Cocoon falling out of the sky, and Vanille and Fang saved the day. How did anyone know this was going to happen??

Or have I totally misinterpreted what happened?

[ANGRYWOLF]

I had that impression too..and yes I haven't played the game yet..I know about it though ...can't restrain my curosity.I am disappointed in the ending already and that's sad for me.I intend to still play the game though.

:mad2:

[arcanedude34]

It's just kind of jarring. I mean, they spend half the game going "We'll never fight Orphan!" then Dysley turns into Orphand and goes "Fight me!" And then they're just like, "Okay... why not?" Basically, the second half of the game is filler.

[Loony BoB]

For what it's worth, after reading the guide's extras area, it sums up what I said earlier - the intention of the enemy was to sacrifice the human population of Cocoon, and this was not done, hence the victory.

[Jings]

I'm wondering what the motivation of the party to kill Orphan was though. They knew it would destroy Cocoon and yet they did it anyway. Even though their intention throughout the game was to accomplish the exact opposite. They couldn't have known Fang and Vanille would save the world.

[Loony BoB]

If they had not Orphan and disabled Cocoon, the fal'Cie would continue to rule over humans and humans would continue to 1) be reliant on them and 2) believe that Pulse was at war with them.

[Elpizo]

They fought him to free mankind from the Occuria. Er, excuse me, I meant from the fal'Cie.

[Darkwolf090]

Ok real fast lets take a look at something. Their focus was to destroy Cocoon not kill Orphan. On that note they defied their focus and killed Orphan and thus freed the humans from the Fal'Cie.
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[Croyles]

I wondered this as well. But I think they realised that ultimately cocoons destruction was up to someone turning into ragnarok and not simply killing Orphan, and since Fang resisted after initially transforming, the ultimate destruction didnt really occur?
Cocoon still fell though, and then Vanille and Fang willingly turn to Ragnarok... I'm actually more confused now lol.

Thought it was a pretty cool ending though. Maybe someone will explain it to me.


Ok real fast lets take a look at something. Their focus was to destroy Cocoon not kill Orphan. On that note they defied their focus and killed Orphan and thus freed the humans from the Fal'Cie.
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Ok that actually makes sense now. Cocoon still fell but as they defied their Focus enough during the battle with Orphan, fate was put back in their hands and Vanille and Fang had the chance to save Cocoon, ironically by turning into Ragnarok. I think I get it now.

I loved the revelation that Cocoon ontop of the crystal spikes is the logo of the game, and also one of the pendants. Seems like it was one of two possible fates.


the Occuria. Er, excuse me, I meant from the fal'Cie.

Haha yeah I thought they were very similar. The Occuria was one of the things I really liked about FFXII though so I was happy that the theme was reused.

[arcanedude34]

So pretty much they were banking the entire world on a last minute deus ex machina to just fall from the sky, eh? There's been dumber in a Final Fantasy, I suppsoe

[Crowseye]

The problem is that the game (both Cid, Dysley, and the Datalog) specifically told the party and player that the destruction of Orphan would lead to the "destruction" of Cocoon because Eden would no longer be able to coordinate the Cocoon fal'Cie, leading to humanity's demise, and the entire orb would fall out of the sky (the latter was first mentioned I believe in one of the Datalog entries).

Their focus and whether they successfully defied it or not before fighting Orphan the final time has absolutely zero bearing on the fact that killing Orphan = Eden unable to function = Cocoon fal'Cie can't take care of humans and killing Orphan = Cocoon falls out of the sky.

The party all agreed to "Protect Cocoon!!!11", and protecting Orphan was the exact reason they came back after Oerba...because as far as the party and player had been informed by the game itself, the death of Orphan amounted to exactly the same thing as Cocoon's destruction because of what would happen when Orphan died.

So, in essence, they just decided to kill Orphan because they were finally fed up with all fal'Cie and hoped some solution would present itself later...they had absolutely no plan for what would happen when Orphan died other than "hope" things worked out (the cinematic after the battle suggests Fang and Vanille already "knew something," but this was never mentioned to the party or player anywhere in the game).

Yes, as Croyles points out, defying their focus and becoming free of it enabled them to save Cocoon in the end, but there is no suggestion until the final cinematic that they had any idea how they would do that.

They "hoped" things would work out -- as it happened their "hope" made a miracle happen: the great deus ex Raganarok conveniently bailed out our mighty heroes for doing exactly what they had agreed not to do for some thirty hours previous.

[Croyles]

I dont remember it being said anywhere that destroying Orphan would lead to Cocoon falling. Which Datalog are you referring to? I got the vibe that it was Ragnarok which destroys Cocoon.

[Loony BoB]

Straight out of the guide for those still confused...


What is the grand scheme of Barthandelus?
Barthandelus is an achitect among fal'Cie, an assigner of roles, who believes that the world has fallen in to ruin since it was created. He also believes that the only way to put things right is to recall the Maker, and he intends to do this through an act of immolation; sacrifice on a grand scale.

And so begins and audacious plan. Cocoon is created; a place to nurture and support human life beyond the natural realm. In contracst to the ferocity and uncertainty of Gran Pulse, Cocoon is a paradise of needs met and desires served. With great ease, humans are drawn out of their ordinary place in the scheme of things to lead lives of pleasure and plenty on the new satellite.

Cocoon is a revealing choice of name. It is a protection, shielding its inhabitants, but also holding them tightly and maintaining them in a juvenile state of development while warding off all outside influences. The larva waits in its cocoon until its day of glory.

Barthandelus intends that rebirth to be a dramatic end to both, because the conclusion of the plan is to sacrifice all life on Cocoon. This is the terrible secret of the place that is home to so many, but the reasoning is brutally simple: with such massive demonstration of death, the Maker must surely respond by returning to his creation.

Why doesn't Barthandelus destroy Cocoon himself?
Powerful as he may seem, Barthandelus is as limited in scope as any other fal'Cie. He must rely on l'Cie to discover the true extent of human potential. As the Analects put it, fal'Cie were made with the Maker's urpose but humans were made with pieces of the divine spirit. The power of a fal'Cie is fixed but humans may attain a much greater power if they pursue it.

Furthermore, Barthandelus simply does not have the means or the strength to achieve his plans directly. That is why he needs to trick others into doing his bidding, and why his plans are founded on lies and deceit. Another translation of the name Barthandelus is "Baldanders", a reference to a mythical creature of many shapes and guises, as would befit the fal'Cie who masquerades as Sanctum hierarch Galenth Dysley. He is a master of illusion, as he demonstrates to the party by imitating Serah and, in the final scenes, by trying to trick Fang into believing that her friends have already turned into Cie'th. It is said that he possesses a rukh familiar called Menrva (referencing the goddess Minerva, or Athena, whose symbol was an owl), but it is possible that this is his true form.

The player may even notice that boss battles with Barthandelus are not rewarded with CP, and that he seems to survive each defeat unscathed, indicating that the party has been fighting a phantom or illusory form each time rather than the real fal'Cie. The secret of Barthandelus is that he possesses no real power of his own, but relies on his ability to manipulate the minds of others. Among the people, he spreads fear and mistrust. His design for the heroes is to inspire despair and hatred, knowing that he can then provoke them into attacking what they hold dearest.

If the heroes don't want to destroy Cocoon, why attack Orphan?
The opening of the Ark and the ensuing rampage of Pulsian beasts continues the part of the plan that began with the Purge. The people will be led to believe that war has broken out. Cocoon has been created as a gigantic sacrificial altar, in which all of the Sanctum fal'Cie have played their part, so the heroes face a dilemma. If they destroy Orphan, they will be playing into the hands of Barthandelus. But if they do nothing, people will still die and the fal'Cie will simply continue to pursue their deranged machinations. While orphan continues to exist, humanity will never be free.

How do Fang and Vanille save Cocoon at the end?
Having undergone all of the tests and trials that Barthandelus placed in their path, the party is strong enough to carry out the final stage of his plan. If just one of them loses hope and becomes Ragnarok, they will have both the power and the furious desire to tear whole worlds apart. And this is exactly what Barthandelus intends.

But with the strength they find in each other, Fang and Vanille make their own choice. Deliberately, they take on the power to become the destroyer of worlds, but use that power in deciding their own fate.

With Orphan defeated and the whole of Cocoon now heading for destruction without its power source, Fang and Vanille assume the form of Ragnarok to dig roots deep into the rock of Gran Pulse. They may be completeing the Focus they were set 500 years ago, but they are now wise to the manipulation of their masters. Creating a massive bridge of matter between the two worlds, they embrace their fate and turn to crystal - and so save the people of Cocoon, supporting the imperiled globe on the crystalline pillar created by their eternal sleep.

There is more in the guide, but I think this is the stuff which best explains how things played out in the end, the focus and why things happened.

[Crowseye]

I dont remember it being said anywhere that destroying Orphan would lead to Cocoon falling. Which Datalog are you referring to? I got the vibe that it was Ragnarok which destroys Cocoon.

Chapter 12, Entry 2 "Eden Under Siege"

"... Even now, the members of the Cavalry charge into the heart of the capital, unwittingly seeking to extinguish the power that keeps Cocoon aloft: Orphan. Their idealism is being used against them.

Their quest for liberation is just another cog in Barthandelus's scheme to call back the Maker. He will see the world shattered, and offer the lives of its inhabitants in sacrifice."

At any rate, that is an interesting read LB.

On the one hand, I agree with the party's observation that humanity would never be free of the fal'Cie if Orphan survived. That is the story I thought the game was going for early on when Lightning decided to take out Eden back in Chapter three -- except it backtracked on that storyline after getting to Palumpolom.

The argument is not really about killing Orphan, which I think most players would agree was necessary for humanity to free themselves from under the thumb of the fal'Cie...it's about killing Orphan without a plan in place for what to do afterwards, fully knowing that Cocoon was "doomed" with Orphan gone -- the entire reason they had decided to protect Orphan the several hours of gameplay previous.

Even the guide doesn't say exactly when the realization hit Fang and Vanille that they could turn into Ragnarok to save Cocoon rather than destroy it, and the game makes it pretty clear IMO that none of the other four party members were in on the secret (much less the player his or herself).

We see no discovery of hidden knowledge on Pulse, no discussion among party members, let alone Vanille or Fang, that "Hey, this may just be possible." The most the game shows is that our heroes "hoped" a solution would present itself (and were confident that one would -- because they were the "heroes" after all). They knowingly gambled the fate of the world based on a last minute change of heart, or a last minute change in perspective, however you want to view it. Fortunately for them, in the final moments before Cocoon crashed into Pulse, they got bailed out by some quick thinking by Vanille and Fang. :roll2

[Loony BoB]

Haha, totally.

[arcanedude34]

So basically between a comfortable life of ignorance and near-certain death, the heroes decided on the latter on behalf of all of mankind. Classic.

[eestlinc]

Well, I'm not sure a "comfortable life" was an option to them, especially at the point they were facing Orphan. And really, Orphan is such an annoying piece of crap, how could they do anything other than destroy it?

[Raistlin]

So pretty much they were banking the entire world on a last minute deus ex machina to just fall from the sky, eh?

As far as I can tell, yeah. The plot overall seemed very haphazardly put together.

[No.78]

The way I saw it, they couldn't avoid their fight with Orphan it was what they did about it that was different. They fought their destiny and ended up completing their focus.

It's delicious ironing!

[arcanedude34]

The way I saw it, they couldn't avoid their fight with Orphan.
They could have let themselves die for the greater good. You know, like good guys.

[VeloZer0]

Which I think they were planning on doing. Then they just kind of forgot about it.

[arcanedude34]

Which I think they were planning on doing. Then they just kind of forgot about it.
That would have made everything SO much better for me. They defeat Oprah, they all look accomplished, then Sazh goes, "Wait... why did we do that again?" One 'oh :bou::bou::bou::bou:' look from the rest of the group later, then Cocoon starts falling. That would have been so awesome. :D

[kotora]

You know there's something wrong with the storytelling when players need to use guides and ingame encyclopedias to explain the ending. Even though those don't even explain it fully. Then again a deux ex machina was the only thing that could've happened anyway, with the party not knowing how they're going to save Coccoon right until the end. It's just bad storytelling on a poorly worked out storyline.

[Loony BoB]

I wonder just how many FF's have a surprise twist at the end.

[kotora]

Aside from the occasional random final boss appearing out of nowhere, I think all of them ended as they were supposed to, with the party saving the world and all. Same for 13, except the story didn't point to anything they could do to save the world, besides "just finish walking the long path and see what happens after beating the final boss, even though that's supposed to destroy the world".

[Elpizo]

Wasn't it kinda the case in VII, too, though? Sure, the party fought Seph to free Holy thinking that would save the planet, but it didn't, and then Aeris pulled the Lifestream out of nowhere. Not nearly as unexplained as XIII's Ragnarok, but still, there was, as far as I remember, nothing indicating that the Lifestream itself could help out.

[kotora]

The Lifestream at least had a story behind it, being the source of life of the planet and all. Plus there's the thing of Aeris' sacrifice, so it all made some kind of sense. We didn't get anything in 13 indicating that there was anything they could do to save Coccoon (except of course, all the cutscenes in which they all boldly proclaimed to save Coccoon instead of destroy it, which just made them seem like they were all talk because nobody had any idea on how to do it).

[Loony BoB]

I only know that VIII had a totally unpredictable ending. I mean, sure, beating the obvious boss did it, but all the stuff that happened immediately afterwards was nothing short of bonkers to me.

[Elpizo]

The Lifestream at least had a story behind it, being the source of life of the planet and all. Plus there's the thing of Aeris' sacrifice, so it all made some kind of sense. We didn't get anything in 13 indicating that there was anything they could do to save Coccoon (except of course, all the cutscenes in which they all boldly proclaimed to save Coccoon instead of destroy it, which just made them seem like they were all talk because nobody had any idea on how to do it).
Ragnarok had a story behind it, too, so that point isn't really valid, IMHO. It's not that surprising that if Ragnarok has the power to destroy Cocoon, those defying their focus could tap into its power to instead save it.

[kotora]

What story? It's only mentioned how it cracked Cocoon's shell before, other than that we don't get any information on the whole thing (datalog entries don't . It certainly doesn't explain how it saved the planet. That's like saying how the power of a nuclear bomb can be used to save things because it also has huge destruction power. The whole defying their focus thing seems to make even less sense. They shouldn't have been turned to crystal then.

[VeloZer0]

They did their focus, kill Orphan. It was only after that they actually got around to save Cocoon.

Being able to sacrifice your life for some temporary blaze of crazy magic power is not that uncommon an occurrence in FF titles. Out of everything in the ending I think that was the only part that made sense and was worth watching.

[Cloudane]

Yeah this did seem a bit odd - all that, and they ended up fulfilling the Focus anyway!

The way I interpreted it was, they thought Orphan was just some innocent party in this and not actually the bigger mastermind behind it all. When he turned out to be the evil one, it was really just a case of putting an end to him ('them'?) and carrying forward with what they were saying about the ability of humans to change destiny and all that. Otherwise, he'd have just turned them into Cie'th and the cycle would've gone on until eventually someone will less self-will would've done the "kill Orphan" bit without the "determination to save Cocoon even if it falls" bit.

Perhaps it just needed some mention of this in the dialogue. Subtlety is good rather than having things spelled out with a sledgehammer, but it was a little too subtle.

Edit: The guide at the end of page 1 seems to say pretty similar. Glad I'm one of the people who understands what's going on for once :)

Edit 2:
Chapter 12, Entry 2 "Eden Under Siege"
As a true testament to memorable things in FF games, even X-2, I still read this in a Hypello voice. "Ohhh no! Banditsh! We are under shiege..."

Edit 3 (maybe I should read the whole thread before replying!):
I only know that VIII had a totally unpredictable ending. I mean, sure, beating the obvious boss did it, but all the stuff that happened immediately afterwards was nothing short of bonkers to me.

I think you've just summed up the charm of FF for me (including VIII). It's bonkers. To borrow your name, it's downright looney at times. But that's just so much more fun than making sense (especially when you get online and start discussing it). XII made sense, and it was boring.

[Loony BoB]

I've always thought that the worst thing about most Final Fantasy games is the unsatisfying endings. But I was okay with this one. Probably mostly because you could carry on and do more gaming. I like that. I'd prefer it if it was "post-end" though, rather than going 'back in time'. VIII was my favourite ending, not because of the ending itself, but because of the little video that shows the aftermath. I think that aftermath is key for me - I think it makes you more satisfied with how things turn out if you know what happens to people after the end of the game instead of just "Then the world was happy, goodbye." I like in XIII that they show you the people being evacuated from Cocoon, though. It's kind of halfway towards showing an aftermath, I guess.

[Cloudane]

I'm torn between the two methods - I like the "full closure" type endings, as it makes you satisfied that you've made their world a better place. After all, that's what it's about isn't it :) On the other hand, some of the most abrupt and annoying (at the time) endings, most famously FFVII, have triggered years of debate, discussion, fan fiction, imagination and theory-making. And it's always been a LOT of fun. So I'm not too sore about the very abrupt ending.

[Loony BoB]

Oh, the 'closure' of an ending is never closure anyway. There are still untold amounts of theories regarding FFVIII, R=U not being the least of them.

[Cloudane]

Heh... true.
Just thinking compared to VII with its rather sudden finish. Of course, the whole Aeris thing contributed too.

One of the most wrapped-up endings I thought was X, with is ironic given the existence of X-2 and what transpires there.