Ramza

[Vermachtnis]

I joke around a lot by saying this for a lot of characters, but Ramza really is one of the greatest Final Fantasy characters. I mean he does the right thing, despite it never going well for him or his group. And he never stops doing what he believes is right. At least I can't remember any scene where he questioned his resolve.

[Flying Mullet]

His only un-redeeming quality is that it's near impossible to beat Wiegraf 1:1 with him.

[ANGRYWOLF]

my second fav character next to Cloud.

Ramza sacrificed what he could have had to "do the right thing".Not many of us would sacrifice as he did.:)

[Bolivar]

A character who rises above the moral ambiguity plaguing his environment to do the right thing and save the world. Great guy. He took blood on his own hands that wasn't his fault Teta and never stood for injustice.

Maybe the best in the franchise.

[VeloZer0]

I creamed Wiegraf 1v1 the first time. Go dragoons!

I like how he always tries to avoid a battle, but doesn't waste time as soon as it becomes apparent that he has to fight. And how he goes into a hardcore mercenary bar and orders milk.

[Raistlin]

Ramza is definitely a great character, and in my opinion the best Final Fantasy lead.

[Lawr]

Yeah he's definitely the best Final Fantasy lead. I think Delita is the most dynamic Final Fantasy character too.

Marche Radiuju in TA is somewhat like Ramza in that he does what is "right" even though the world is opposing him. He does question himself a lot though, which I thought really made the player think.

[Madonna]

I like how he always tries to avoid a battle, but doesn't waste time as soon as it becomes apparent that he has to fight. And how he goes into a hardcore mercenary bar and orders milk.He had some of the best lines as well! "Surrender or die in obscurity!"

[Skyblade]

He failed to do the right thing, and he left a complete psychopath in control of the country. The right thing would have been to knife Delita in the back. And he had plenty of opportunity, he just lacked the conviction to do what need to be done.

[VeloZer0]

I'm fairly sure that Ramza had no idea that things would play out leaving Delitia king. The whole reason he got there is that no one thought it would end that way.


and he left a complete psychopath in control of the country.
I saw Ramza and Delitia as tragic hero figures, each in their own way. We all know about Ramza, but I don't see why having Delitia become king to help the country can't be a heroic act. I mean, overall Delitia probably killed less innocent people than Ramza did. (Think of all the people Ramza had to kill just because he was a heretic). Delitia was primarily stabbing people in the back who were already corrupt.

If Delitia was truly a tyrant than history would have recorded him as the king who came to power after the Lion War, not the hero who ended it.

[Kyros]

I thought he was awesome, but I can't really express how much I wanted him and Delita to team back up in the end :( I don't remember ever having any problems with Ramza fighting, but this might be b/c I power lv a ton in the beginning to where I have 1/2 the classes before I'm 4-5 fights into the game. That leads me to another note about why Ramza is awesome: HE HAS LUNGS OF STEEL!!! Seriously I have him yell every turn till I make him a bard in which he's singing, and he never stops; that's some serious stamina :P

[Wolf Kanno]

He failed to do the right thing, and he left a complete psychopath in control of the country. The right thing would have been to knife Delita in the back. And he had plenty of opportunity, he just lacked the conviction to do what need to be done.

I don't see how Delita is really a psychopath. He spared Cid and his son despite both of them being a liability for his own plans. In the end, Delita mostly took out people who really deserved to be taken out and as VeloZer0 said, he's remembered as a hero and wonderful king, so he probably ran Ivalice better than anyone else. Besides, Ramza had bigger problems than Delita.

Ramza is trapped in a scenario based in reality. Killing Delita would have only led to more suffering and the possibility of a greater tyrant coming in control. I love the fact the FFT portrays its story in a more realistic context with the total absence of the usual RPG "black and white" morality scheme. It creates a richer more philosophical take on the story telling.

[docta fizz]

That leads me to another note about why Ramza is awesome: HE HAS LUNGS OF STEEL!!! Seriously I have him yell every turn till I make him a bard in which he's singing, and he never stops; that's some serious stamina :P
Poor fellow must yell himself blue in the face for everyone. I yell at wiegraff till he can't take it anymore and basically gives up.

The game does a really good job, though it does have a serious good/evil theme between the church and the very few people who know, your 3 way power struggle is amazingly well put together. It is real enough to be possible in mideval times. 2 thumbs up from this guy ;)

[PaulinasKnight]

I agree. Ramza is one of my favorite characters and a very admirable one. This game is one of my favorites 12 years later. I just recently downloaded it from the PSN Store to my PS3. Even though my friends make fun of its crappy graphics, I don't care... it's an amazing game and I'll stay play it for its story and characters.

[VeloZer0]

Even though my friends make fun of its crappy graphics,...
Give me your friends addresses, I will punch them in the teeth for you.

[Vermachtnis]

Even though my friends make fun of its crappy graphics,...
Give me your friends addresses, I will punch them in the teeth for you.

What you should do is take a single tooth and twist 15 Degrees in the jaw. 45 Degrees if you want to make a lasting impression.

[PaulinasKnight]

Even though my friends make fun of its crappy graphics,...
Give me your friends addresses, I will punch them in the teeth for you.

What you should do is take a single tooth and twist 15 Degrees in the jaw. 45 Degrees if you want to make a lasting impression.

Thanks, I'll give it a try! They were like "I can't believe you are cheating on Final Fantasy XIII!"

[VeloZer0]

Tell them FFT is better than FFX, XII and XIII put together.

[docta fizz]

Tell them FFT is better than FFX, XII and XIII put together.
2nd-ed

[Bolivar]

He failed to do the right thing, and he left a complete psychopath in control of the country. The right thing would have been to knife Delita in the back. And he had plenty of opportunity, he just lacked the conviction to do what need to be done.

I don't see how Delita is really a psychopath. He spared Cid and his son despite both of them being a liability for his own plans. In the end, Delita mostly took out people who really deserved to be taken out and as VeloZer0 said, he's remembered as a hero and wonderful king, so he probably ran Ivalice better than anyone else. Besides, Ramza had bigger problems than Delita.

Ramza is trapped in a scenario based in reality. Killing Delita would have only led to more suffering and the possibility of a greater tyrant coming in control. I love the fact the FFT portrays its story in a more realistic context with the total absence of the usual RPG "black and white" morality scheme. It creates a richer more philosophical take on the story telling.

I agree with you that it would be uncharacteristic for him to kill Delita, but Delita completely lost his marbles the day Teta died. He became what he fought against - a cycle of power where the most cunning lie, cheat, and backstab their way to the top.

Also, Olan/Orran (actually had to look up his name - Cid's stepson!) was burned at the stake!!! Maybe Delita was a good king (as the prologue suggests) maybe he wasn't, history is full of lies!

[ANGRYWOLF]

I agree that Delita became absolutely ruthless...and completely untrustworthy.
I think he would have killed Ramza if Ramza had stuck around.
He was trying to appease that silly Glabados church.....that's why Oran was burned and he would have handed Ramza over to them as well.Just to mollify/appease them and keep them on his side.

Stll the presumption is that Delita put an end to the wars and rebuilt the country. An era of peace came into existance.He deserves credit for that although we hate his methods in achieving it.:mad2:

[Wolf Kanno]

I agree with you that it would be uncharacteristic for him to kill Delita, but Delita completely lost his marbles the day Teta died. He became what he fought against - a cycle of power where the most cunning lie, cheat, and backstab their way to the top.

Also, Olan/Orran (actually had to look up his name - Cid's stepson!) was burned at the stake!!! Maybe Delita was a good king (as the prologue suggests) maybe he wasn't, history is full of lies!

Except Delita didn't have Orran killed, he was executed by the church as a heretic so you can't blame Delita there. Delita also happen to kill a lot of people who were not exactly innocent. Yes he fell from grace but he pursued his own idea of saving Ivalice to the end.

I wouldn't say Delita was evil or crazy, rather he was just very human. His actions were necessary to complete his goal and technically fewer people died from Delita's scheme than the amount who fell to Dycedarg (sp?) and the churches scheming. Its not like Delita's schemes plunged Ivalice into war, rather it actually ended the war, so its pretty difficult to say the man didn't accomplish anything for the greater good. He just gets flack cause he ended up king for his carefully planned trouble but sadly its better for Delita to gain the crown than any of the other nobles or the Glabados Church to regain power. Though he did many terrible things (and lets not forget Ramza is not exactly innocent either in this regard) his actions actually did lead to a greater good for the people who really were suffering in the war.

[VeloZer0]

I you look at Delita's methods, sparing Olan's life was completely out of character. When considering someone like Delita the fact that Olan is alive doesn't mean that Delita didn't kill him, but that Delita actively chose to keep him alive.

The fact that Delita couldn't keep Olan safe from the church is no huge surprise.


He became what he fought against - a cycle of power where the most cunning lie, cheat, and backstab their way to the top.
Or he could have been fighting against the cycle where the peasants get swept up in sacrifice for the power games of the nobles. In that sense he succeeded completely.


Maybe Delita was a good king (as the prologue suggests) maybe he wasn't, history is full of lies!
Though we can never be sure given the lack of material we have to work with, but Alazlam Durai is certainly not a source that would be swayed by the popular interpretation of historical events. He probably has a very clear picture of the full implications of Delita's rule.

[Skyblade]

I agree with you that it would be uncharacteristic for him to kill Delita, but Delita completely lost his marbles the day Teta died. He became what he fought against - a cycle of power where the most cunning lie, cheat, and backstab their way to the top.

Also, Olan/Orran (actually had to look up his name - Cid's stepson!) was burned at the stake!!! Maybe Delita was a good king (as the prologue suggests) maybe he wasn't, history is full of lies!

Except Delita didn't have Orran killed, he was executed by the church as a heretic so you can't blame Delita there. Delita also happen to kill a lot of people who were not exactly innocent. Yes he fell from grace but he pursued his own idea of saving Ivalice to the end.

I wouldn't say Delita was evil or crazy, rather he was just very human. His actions were necessary to complete his goal and technically fewer people died from Delita's scheme than the amount who fell to Dycedarg (sp?) and the churches scheming. Its not like Delita's schemes plunged Ivalice into war, rather it actually ended the war, so its pretty difficult to say the man didn't accomplish anything for the greater good. He just gets flack cause he ended up king for his carefully planned trouble but sadly its better for Delita to gain the crown than any of the other nobles or the Glabados Church to regain power. Though he did many terrible things (and lets not forget Ramza is not exactly innocent either in this regard) his actions actually did lead to a greater good for the people who really were suffering in the war.

So? You could say the same thing about every dictator in history. That doesn't make them any more sane, or any less evil.

[VeloZer0]

...His actions were necessary to complete his goal ...

So? You could say the same thing about every dictator in history. That doesn't make them any more sane, or any less evil.
Just because someone values the ends over the means doesn't make them evil or insane. If Ivalice is falling apart at the seams and you see a way to save it and you don't do so you would be evil. If Delita saw a way to keep the country from descending even deeper into depravity the only morally upstanding path would be to stop said decent. Even if it meant doing so yourself.
I saw Delita as an even more tragic hero than Ramza. Ramza lost a lot, but in the end remained the hero he was in the beginning. Delita lost everything, including himself, in his quest to help save Ivalice.

I personally can't stand the whole concept that someone can't be manipulative and underhanded (or as I call it intelligent and practical) while still acting in an altruistic manner. I think it is a very simplistic concept in storytelling and an overused moralistic cliche. Not every character who has a brain on their heads about the best way to actually help people in a meaningful way has to be evil.

[Wolf Kanno]

So? You could say the same thing about every dictator in history. That doesn't make them any more sane, or any less evil.


There have also been many great rulers who had to kill many people to achieve a level of peace and prosperity for there people. I don't see how morality has to be so black and white especially since the world really isn't so simple. Sometimes the best action and the morale high road in a conflict is the one that makes you do some terrible things, there are just certain situations where the best thing to do is choose the lesser of two evils cause life rarely gives you problems that have simple answers, otherwise they wouldn't be problems. I think Tactics is an amazing game for presenting this concept to the player. The world really is not that simple I'm afraid.

As I said, its not like Delita killed many innocent people. Olivia yes, but the rest were cuthroats and murderers themselves that make Delita's record look like child's play. This resulted in the end of a pointless conflict and rule that may have been far more just for the non-nobility. I don't see how such great benefits are not worth the lives of a few people who were slowly destroying the land and harming countless innocents who are dying and starving to death cause their "leaders" feel its more important to wage war against each other so they can have control of a ruined kingdom.

Except Olivia and the Cid impostor, Delita pretty much took out people who deserved it. Would he have killed Ramza if he tried to make a stand against him? Certainly, but its not like Ramza is exactly innocent either and Ramza trying to stop Delita would have served no purpose for either of them.

[Bolivar]

I think Tactics is an amazing game for presenting this concept to the player. The world really is not that simple I'm afraid.

Actually I don't think that's the message in Tactics at all, it's actually quite the opposite.

The story in Tactics progresses with interchanging villains who each escalate the conflict and make the situation worse, even though they honestly feel that they're doing it for the better. It's this culture of rationalizing your own cruel tactics that made Ivalice such a crappy place to begin with.

The Death Corp. use terrorism in the name of the poor - the only real result is an excuse for the nobles to use them to further a war. Each of the noble factions believe they are less corrupt/obtuse than the other faction and believe that they can bring better peace to Ivalice. The Church thinks the nobles have created this whole mess to begin with, but they're actually unknowingly leading the world towards an apocalypse!!!

The only characters who will not take underhanded tactics in order to further peace are Ramza's faction. In many cases, some of the schemes they foil would in fact lead to a better world, but because someone will get hurt along the way, Ramza stops it. At certain times I think he specifically says he will not allow any inustice even if it does lead to a utilitarian net gain.

I think I've said this before, but that's what the Ivalice games are all about - heroes who rise above the moral ambiguity which is suffocating their culture/setting, in order to put down a supernatural threat.

[VeloZer0]

I thought it also sent a clear message that someone like Ramza could never change anything for the better. Sure he stopped the Lucavi, but that was preventing a change for the worst. What I got of it was that they needed a hero like Delita to be willing to get his hands dirty and change things for the better.

Death Corps and Delita are completely different examples. Death Corps, like Ramza, tried to change things from outside the system. They were overwhelmed and killed, much like Ramza would have been should he have taken a stand and actually tried to seize any sort of power. Delita has the intelligence to realize that fighting the system from the outside serves nothing but making you feel self righteous. He was more concerned with the future of Ivalice than feeling like a hero.

Also, I don't really think a whole lot of people were even pretending to be acting with the people's best interests in mind. For a noble that isn't even considered an un-ethical act. Their actions were considered completely justified by the morals of the time.

[Bolivar]

I thought it also sent a clear message that someone like Ramza could never change anything for the better. Sure he stopped the Lucavi, but that was preventing a change for the worst. What I got of it was that they needed a hero like Delita to be willing to get his hands dirty and change things for the better.

Death Corps and Delita are completely different examples. Death Corps, like Ramza, tried to change things from outside the system. They were overwhelmed and killed, much like Ramza would have been should he have taken a stand and actually tried to seize any sort of power. Delita has the intelligence to realize that fighting the system from the outside serves nothing but making you feel self righteous. He was more concerned with the future of Ivalice than feeling like a hero.

Also, I don't really think a whole lot of people were even pretending to be acting with the people's best interests in mind. For a noble that isn't even considered an un-ethical act. Their actions were considered completely justified by the morals of the time.

That's actually a very interesting take on it that makes me think twice about what the game was actually about.

But I really feel like with him killing Ovelia at the end and asking what did Ramza "get/gain", the game basically painted him as having fully become that which he fought against. Sure, he may have brought about a "peace", but I do not believe the game wanted him to come off as any kind of hero or well-intentioned character. Mostly because, like I said, every major villain except the Lucavi and Temple Knights also had this same goal in mind.

Speaking of which, I can't quote to any direct part in the game, but I can say that the plot is generally advanced by a battle with a new enemy who tries to convince Ramza that what they're fighting for will genuinely bring about a positive change. Not allowing any inustice to happen for that sake, Ramza then kills them. The only specific example I can think of is Gafgarion, which is a bad example because he didn't care about anything and only tried to convince Ramza his brothers were acting for the right thing because money was involved. But I do remember High Priest Funeral being painted as a well-intentioned old man who simply got manipulated by the Lucavi.

Overall, I would say the game strongly cautions us against delusional hopes to bring about real change. The best we can do is stop any injustice, no matter what it's in the name of, which is what Ramza and the name "Beoulve" is all about.

edit: in any case i'm glad we're pulling these things out of the game and talking about them, especially in light of recent events (re: ebert again). This definitely shows video games are art, at least by the standard of delivering interesting and thought-provoking themes that can spark serious discussion.

[oddler]

Maybe I totally misunderstood the ending of the game but I thought the only reason Delita kills Ovelia is because she stabs him. Delita comes to actually love Ovelia in the end but she jumps to conclusions and thinks that he's continuing to manipulate her. Who really got the fucked up ending? I definitely say Delita. Someone tell me if that's not accurate; it's been a while since I played the game.

[VeloZer0]

That is one of the brilliant things about sprite/primitive 3d games, the amount that is left to be interpreted by the player. If the game was in HD they would probably not have left any no room for interpretation on the characters action. And since we both chose to see something different, one of us wouldn't have liked the game as much as we did.


But I do remember High Priest Funeral being painted as a well-intentioned old man who simply got manipulated by the Lucavi.
I don't really think there was enough said about Funeral to know what his intentions were. I alway thought of him as just as corrupt and power hungry as any of the other nobles. I guess it depends how much sympathy you draw for him after he is killed by Vorman. I can understand how he could be viewed as sympathetic, old men who have just been betrayed and murdered are usually seen as fairly harmless. I personally saw another contender for the throne who got what he had coming.
I loved the scene where Ramza finds him, and after he gets what information he can out of him he just turns and walks out of the room, without taking a second to contemplate. By that point in the game he has lost any possible sympathy he could have for Funeral, and unceremoniously walks out on his corpse.
Like I said, I don't think we have very much to judge the man on. I'm basically going by Ramza's reaction to his death. Ramza usually takes the time after every battle with deserters and thieves to reflect on the loss of life, for Funeral there is nothing.


, but I do not believe the game wanted him to come off as any kind of hero or well-intentioned character. Mostly because, like I said, every major villain except the Lucavi and Temple Knights also had this same goal in mind.
I generally like stories where the a) the hero wins by smashing the bad guys face in with super powers(DBZ style), or b) the hero wins by out thinking the antagonistic force (Asimov style). So a story where the hero outplays all the antagonists at their own game is something that appeals to me. Going in with this perspective I would naturally fill in the blanks with interpretations that lead to a hero outsmarting the villains at their own game.

Or another way to look at it. Ramza was special because he was the main character. He was the only on who could take on a Lucavi and win. Likewise Delita was also special, a flip side to Ramza so to speak. Just like Ramza was the only one able to rise above and defeat the evil of the Lucavi, Delita was the only one able to rise above and restore order to Ivalice.


Maybe I totally misunderstood the ending of the game but I thought the only reason Delita kills Ovelia is because she stabs him. Delita comes to actually love Ovelia in the end but she jumps to conclusions and thinks that he's continuing to manipulate her. Who really got the smurfed up ending? I definitely say Delita. Someone tell me if that's not accurate; it's been a while since I played the game.
Also consider (presumably) that one of the main reasons Ovelia decided to kill Delita was that he was ruthless enough to kill Olan and Bulf.... dancer girl...

[oddler]

That is one of the brilliant things about sprite/primitive 3d games, the amount that is left to be interpreted by the player. If the game was in HD they would probably not have left any no room for interpretation on the characters action. And since we both chose to see something different, one of us wouldn't have liked the game as much as we did.

I think it would be an interesting thought to have a game that left an ending purposely open to contemplate what really just happened. I don't think that was the case for this game, though. If I remember correctly, she runs up to him and it makes the "stabbing into flesh" sound, then he hunkers over wounded and drops the flowers. She turns, he draws his sword, kills her, then crawls off and dies. Romeo and Juliet on vengeful steroids.


Or another way to look at it. Ramza was special because he was the main character. He was the only on who could take on a Lucavi and win. Likewise Delita was also special, a flip side to Ramza so to speak. Just like Ramza was the only one able to rise above and defeat the evil of the Lucavi, Delita was the only one able to rise above and restore order to Ivalice.

When put that way, I think Delita was again the better of the two. Delita was just as "strong" as Ramza; he just chose to exact revenge and cleanse the system. A proper cleanse wouldn't be very thorough if he allowed Lucavi to return and he used Ramza to prevent that. He covered all the angles... except for telling Ovelia the truth quickly enough.


Also consider (presumably) that one of the main reasons Ovelia decided to kill Delita was that he was ruthless enough to kill Olan and Bulf.... dancer girl...


Olan Durai, a witness who had many encounters with Ramza (and is unsure as to whether his glimpse of a living and well Ramza and Alma after the game's final battle is a hallucination or not), attempts to reveal the Church's evil plot with the "Durai Report." However, his papers are confiscated and he is burned at the stake for heresy.

I don't remember the order of the events at the end of the game; Olan dying is the last of the "story" and then the Delita/Ovelia scene is after the credits, right? If that's the case, I guess Delita would have something to do with his death but I never put that together until you brought it up.

Is her name Balmafula? I searched but couldn't find sure details. I don't remember Delita killing her. Can you refresh my memory?

[qwertysaur]

Balmafula was an agent of the Church who was supposed to Kill Delita if he betrayed the church, but when she tried to act on the orders she was unable to do it, so Delita faked her death and she escaped. She also appears in the ending alongside Olan.

[Skyblade]

Maybe I totally misunderstood the ending of the game but I thought the only reason Delita kills Ovelia is because she stabs him. Delita comes to actually love Ovelia in the end but she jumps to conclusions and thinks that he's continuing to manipulate her. Who really got the smurfed up ending? I definitely say Delita. Someone tell me if that's not accurate; it's been a while since I played the game.

Delita was manipulating her. She was the means to his ascension to power. He cared nothing for her personally. As soon as she outlives her usefullness and becomes a possible threat to him, he kills her with no remorse.

[VeloZer0]

Delita was manipulating her. She was the means to his ascension to power. He cared nothing for her personally. As soon as she outlives her usefullness and becomes a possible threat to him, he kills her with no remorse.
To be fair, she attacked him. And he did look quite remorseful afterwards, you don't look to the sky and muse about what your life could have been right after you get everything you have been dreaming of.

If he really wanted to kill everyone who was a threat to him he would have killed Olan and Balmafula. He had nothing to gain by leaving them alive, they were only a potential liability.

[oddler]

Delita was manipulating her. She was the means to his ascension to power. He cared nothing for her personally. As soon as she outlives her usefullness and becomes a possible threat to him, he kills her with no remorse.

Except for Delita manipulating her, I disagree with you completely. The means to his ascension was his own doing, not hers. I think the fact that she wasn't a real princess furthers the idea that he gains feelings for her. She becomes royalty from common birth just as Delita does. He makes the mistake of letting her live and not telling her the truth which ends with her killing him.

[Skyblade]

Delita was manipulating her. She was the means to his ascension to power. He cared nothing for her personally. As soon as she outlives her usefullness and becomes a possible threat to him, he kills her with no remorse.
To be fair, she attacked him. And he did look quite remorseful afterwards, you don't look to the sky and muse about what your life could have been right after you get everything you have been dreaming of.

If he really wanted to kill everyone who was a threat to him he would have killed Olan and Balmafula. He had nothing to gain by leaving them alive, they were only a potential liability.

Watch the scene. He kills her without batting an eye, then he goes off to think about himself. Does he hold her as her life slips away? Does he weep? Does he register any shock about his "love" trying to kill him? Does he have any feelings for her during the whole thing? No. All he does is look away and start thinking about himself. That's all he's thought about the entire game. The guy is one of the most narcissitic individuals Square has ever written. He would kill off anyone, family, friends, loved ones, innocents, all to promote his own power. He never shows remorse for any of his actions. He has no feelings for ANYONE but his sister. He knifes his own wife, and as she's laying there breathing her last, he just looks away and muses about the course of his own life. Himself, again.

Sorry, but I hate Delita, and that scene most of all. No matter how awesome the rest of the plot is (and it is awesome, and makes up for the broken combat), this scene killed the game for me. Knowing that every time I play through it that this scene is waiting as a "Congratulations, now here's your reward- *Stab*"... Bleh. FFT is dead to me because of Delita and this scene.

[VeloZer0]

And how does any of this jive with going to the effort of faking Olan and Balmafula's deaths? Not only did he not kill them because they were in his way, he went to extra effort to remove them from his way without killing them.


Does he register any shock about his "love" trying to kill him?
The fact that he stands motionless and looks off into the sky kind of signifies shock to me. If he really didn't care he would have just stepped over her body and walked off, as you see him do on occasions he kills people he doesn't care about.


He never shows remorse for any of his actions.
Neither would I if I were him. With the exception of Ovelia all the people he killed were hardly undeserving.


(and that along with the terribly broken gameplay pretty much ended my interest in the game).
As much as I want to rise to your bait, that isn't the place of this thread.

Come to think of it, maybe a mod should chop the last page or so of posts from this thread into a new one entitled "Delita".

[Skyblade]

Yeah, sorry, that rant got a bit personal there. I didn't mean to drag Delita into the thread, but that's all I can get when I see Ramza. Ramza himself is merely another conduit for Delita's ascension. He's not a hero, and he's the only primary character from an FF game that I have never had any connection with. He lets the big villain (and Delita will always be the primary villain of the story to me) live to be the only character in the game who winds up in a better position than the one they entered with. All the great characters in this game and the only one with a happy ending is the jerk I hate, and Ramza has plenty of opportunities to end this and he doesn't.

[BG-57]

Ramza is an awesome character, a model of sacrifice and friendship. He is truly a noble in both bloodline and character. He's essentially a lawful good paladin.

Delita is less hateful than say Algus (who seems to be a jerk on principle) or Vormav (who is evil incarnate), but he fell from grace further than any character. At the end he seems the epitome of the man who gains the world but loses his soul.

[Wolf Kanno]

The Death Corp. use terrorism in the name of the poor - the only real result is an excuse for the nobles to use them to further a war.

I don't see the Death Corps as bad, certainly some members of the group try to go for the easy way out and make them out to be a group of thugs but each time I play through Tactics, I feel its apparent that Ramza is actually being the villain in the first chapter, as he kills on orders a group of people that he himself can relate to.

I don't feel Wiegraf was evil, a hopeless idealist yes, but hardly evil. I feel the Death Corps were actually quite noble in their endeavors except for the guys who kept taking hostages, and this was rather striking as it just goes to show how a few bad eggs can make something people would have supported turn into something people hate. Of anything, this almost throws us into the debate on the concept of terrorism and whether its a good tool for political change in an oppressive regime. The Death Corps was wiped out and became terrorist but had they succeeded they would have been the heroic rebellion. History often paints the name of people long after the ambiguity of their actions have passed.



Each of the noble factions believe they are less corrupt/obtuse than the other faction and believe that they can bring better peace to Ivalice.

The beauty of all this is how accurate this really does fall into real life with the conflicts among the nobles and their total disregard for the peasants. I feel Larg was definetly out for power, and Goltana initially went to war cause he did believe he was protecting Ivalice from the power hungry Larg but it seems easy to realize he wanted the throne as well and just used his reasoning to justify his war.


The only characters who will not take underhanded tactics in order to further peace are Ramza's faction. In many cases, some of the schemes they foil would in fact lead to a better world, but because someone will get hurt along the way, Ramza stops it. At certain times I think he specifically says he will not allow any injustice even if it does lead to a utilitarian net gain.

I think I've said this before, but that's what the Ivalice games are all about - heroes who rise above the moral ambiguity which is suffocating their culture/setting, in order to put down a supernatural threat.

See in terms of Ramza and Delita, I feel what we really have here is a conflict between the two moral thoughts of virtue (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ethics-virtue/) (Ramza) and Utilitarianism (http://skeptically.org/utilitarianismtheethicaltheoryforalltimes/id15.html) (Delita).

I think where I disagree with the game is the end results of both characters. Ramza has peace of mind and is able to save his sister and Ivalice but his efforts are partly thankless and in the end his actions only helped further Delita's goals. He saved Ivalice from a cataclysmic event but I don't think we could go so far to say he truly saved Ivalice.

Delita on the other hand does save Ivalice from its more major issue of political turmoil and completely upsets the old order. His actions are at best deplorable and in the end, he ends up becoming the very thing he fought to remove from Ivalice (which in itself is more of a social commentary on politics). Delita saves Ivalice and though he get some materialistic gain, his hands are stained and he lost the only people he ever cared about.

I feel you downplay Delita's success, he may have lost the battle for his soul but it can't really be argued that his actions led to some good results for Ivalice. Ramza saved Ivalice from a demon invasion but his actions didn't stop the Lion War nor resolved the starting issue of his journey. A lot of major players got axed but it was Delita who filled in the political vacuum and saved Ivalice from further civil war or possible even an invasion from a foreign power.

They are both heroes in some way and both made terrible sacrifices at their own expense for the better good of Ivalice.

As for Delita not caring about Ovelia, I feel the PSP version pretty much shows that Delita really did care about her. Of anything, its pretty tragic that his own actions made one of the people he cared about turn on him in fear. I feel the story makes a bit of a commentary showing the hardships of following a personal virtuous life like Ramza or the repercussions of actually trying to save the people for the better good and the problems when one employs "the end justifies the means".

[Greatermaximus]

I thought this thread was about Ramza? I like that his death is the main losing condition.

[Del Murder]

Ramza is indeed one of the best lead characters of a FF game. It's a shame he doesn't get very far in the character tournaments.

It's great to watch him go from a naive squire with a strong sense of justice to the only person who understands what's really going on and the only one who can stop it. His quest for the truth is very well done. I love this story.