Summons in KH/KH2

[Momiji]

Kind of similar to AK's thread here (http://forums.eyesonff.com/heart-body-kingdom-kingdom-hearts/130638-magics-got-nothing-me.html). How often did you really use the summons in Kingdom Hearts/KH2?

I can't really think of a time I ever used them outside of being bored.

[Aerith's Knight]

I didn't even know you could summon in KH games. :p

[PuPu]

I use Tinker Bell in almost all possible boss fights in KH1 for free healing and auto-life.

Stitch in KH2 is more broken than Reflect.

[P4ine]

never haha

[Mercen-X]

They're not particularly useful.

[qwertysaur]

You pretty much have to use stitch to get 100% in Olympus Colosseum.

[No.78]

I think I used them more in KHI, in KHII they seemed useless. I was very disappointed by Genie, too.

[PuPu]

Seriously people, Stitch is probably the most broken thing out of the entire KH2 battle system.

[Tavrobel]

Tinkerbell in KHI for the free revive.

In KHII, I never bothered with Summons during the regular game, as using Valor to cause damage was more important, and that was sufficiently leveled compared to my base-level Summons. In the post-game side-missions, the use of Summons was incentivized, if not forced.

[blackmage_nuke]

I agree with tinkerbell and stitch

I use to think tinkerbell's "revives you once" meant that it will only ever do it once in the entire game so i would reset if she revived me.

[Zeromus_X]

I don't think I could've beaten Kurt Zisa in KHI without Tinkerbell.

In KHII, I don't remember using summons that often...probably only used Genie a few times for the invincibility to help get through the horde of Nobodies in Final Mix's extra dungeon.

[Depression Moon]

IN KHI every time I fight Maleficent dragon I used Tinker Bell besides that, nope I don't really use summons often. Cranking up the difficulty in the game might fix the problem in the third installment.

[arcanedude34]

I spammed Peter Pan in KHII.

[Wolf Kanno]

Tink was easily the most useful in KH1. Like Tav, I feel the summons in KH2 are only useful for the extra stuff like the Coliseum cause the Forms were far more useful and broken. I think I used the summons more in CoM than the actual console brethren.

[PuPu]

Drives are really not as useful as people think.

Limit > Final >>> Wisdom > Normal Sora >>>> Master >>>>>>>>>>> Valor > Anti

The determining factor is Guard. When you Drive, you have to give up the most useful ability in the game. The question is, what do you get for it?

Limit - "I'M INVINCIBLE!" moves + Highest damage output in the game + Guard
Final - Sheer physical attack and magic attack power that it's ridiculous.
Wisdom - Awesome magic attack power, which annihilates all.
Master - All aerial attacks is fail and it is very easy to deflect. The only reason it is above Valor is because it has Magic.
Valor - No Magic, easily deflect-able attacks. This form becomes obsolete as soon as you get Guard as Roxas.
Anti - High damage and speed, but you die so easily.

Except for Limit and Final, and maybe Wisdom, Summons are overall far better than Drives. Stitch is tied with Limit Form, if not better.

[I Don't Need A Name]

I don't think I could've beaten Kurt Zisa in KHI without Tinkerbell.

This. The only other times I used them was to complete their files in the journal thing.

[arcanedude34]

Drives are really not as useful as people think.

Limit > Final >>> Wisdom > Normal Sora >>>> Master >>>>>>>>>>> Valor > Anti

The determining factor is Guard. When you Drive, you have to give up the most useful ability in the game. The question is, what do you get for it?
That seems to be your play style, but I never used guard in KHII, so I found the Drives much better than normal Sora.

[PuPu]

That seems to be your play style, but I never used guard in KHII, so I found the Drives much better than normal Sora.

It's objective fact that Normal Sora is better than Master and Valor, even without Guard. Not only do you get nothing in return for Guard, you're also given handicaps.

Master's "all aerial attacks" falls apart if you ever get your attacks deflected, leaving Sora stuck in a "lol, hit me now guys" pose long enough to get killed if you're fighting tough enemies or are low leveled.

Valor is absolute trash and anyone who says otherwise is lying, because Normal Sora can deal more damage except for maybe very early in the game. It also suffers from "hit me, I'm a sitting duck" syndrome like Master once your attacks get deflected, can't do Magic, and has no long range attacks.

[blackmage_nuke]

Well each form isnt designed to be useful for every battle situation, thats what normal sora is for. You activate master form and valour form when they would be useful. Eg when you want to take down a boss with very high hp faster. Ive never had a major problem with the enemy deflecting my attacks.

[PuPu]

Well each form isnt designed to be useful for every battle situation, thats what normal sora is for

But that's what I'm saying, any situation that's appropriate for either form, Normal Sora does better.


Eg when you want to take down a boss with very high hp faster.

This should never be a priority, as it makes you more likely of screwing up and getting hurt by enemy attacks.

Also, there's no guarantee that you'll get get an increased chance of "faster" kills when using Valor or Master, but there is most definitely an increased chance of getting killed, with no Guard, no Magic (Valor), and no way of counterattacking.


Ive never had a major problem with the enemy deflecting my attacks.

Hot Rods, Berserkers, Dancers, Toy Soldiers, any sort of tough enemy one would feel inclined to Drive against, etc. Pretty much every enemy in KH2 has some sort of counterattack after you hit them a lot. Many of them are deadly, and many of them also give the enemy temporary invincibility. Sure is going to be dangerous when the enemy is shooting off attacks while invincible and when I'm missing Guard and nothing to compensate for it.

From my experience, it's a huge problem in Low Level Proud mode that's usually enough to get me killed if not for Once More.

I can only imagine what it must be like for Critical Mode.

[yuno]

i used summons extensively in kh1,and i mean all of them.

i was a pure magic user,using keyblades like spellbinder,oathkeeper (oh yeah) and finally,ultima weapon, and accessories which give bonus mp.this made basic magic like thundaga work like a charm,and when i ran out of mp,i simply casted bambi.bambi was probably my most used summon of all.

in boss battles,i used all the summons.mushu,genie and dumbo,for example,inflicted pain on dragon maleficent like she was a puny lizard.add in simba,roaring atop maleficent's back.when i ran out of mp,i then cast bambi again,and threw magic like crazy!even ansem was way too easy for magic sora.in fact,when you look at it,the optional (more difficult) bosses like the phantom,kurt zisa and sephy are more difficult because magic cannot be spammed on them.

[Depression Moon]

It might just be you PuPu, because every drive form seems to make every battle easier for me rather than difficult, not that the game is even hard on Proud mode. Doesn't Master form give you infinite chains or something, even if it was risky to fight in that form, as I never found it to be. Endless reflect spells should save you.

[LowCaloriePie]

I used Tinker Bell for a few fights in the first game. Otherwise, I never gave summons the time of day.


It also suffers from "hit me, I'm a sitting duck" syndrome like Master once your attacks get deflected, can't do Magic, and has no long range attacks.

Aside from two or three enemies (such as the Hot Rod, which are hard to defeat no matter what form you're in), my attacks have never been deflected by any enemy.

[PuPu]

It might just be you PuPu, because every drive form seems to make every battle easier for me rather than difficult,
Because when most enemies hits you, it's probably not enough to do any real damage. You can probably ignore up 6 or 7 hits by most enemies before hearing the beeping HP bar.

But it isn't just me, Critical Mode players would agree with me. From what I hear, Valor and Master forms are suicide in Critical and the amount of "oh no I made a mistake and now I go from full HP to 1HP" times on low level Proud make me agree.


not that the game is even hard on Proud mode.

It is when you're on a low level, or Critical mode. Having Dancers that can take out 3/4 of your HP bar with their grab move, and having Hot Rods that can instantly reduce your HP to 1 with their "LOL I'M INVINCBLE" charge sucks.


Doesn't Master form give you infinite chains or something, even if it was risky to fight in that form,

The problem is fighting against enemies that can deflect your attacks, and with stagger resistance. i.e. all the tough enemies in the game. It doesn't matter how strong Master's attacks are if the enemies can just brush them off, counterattack, interrupt your combo, then proceed to take off chunks of your HP.


as I never found it to be.
I'm not talking about fighting Shadows and Dusks or any negligible enemies where Driving is hardly even necessary. I'm talking about the major enemies and bosses in this game with absurdly powerful "I'M INVINCIBLE" counter attacks, with stagger resistance. The enemies that say "smurf YOUR COMBO, I'M STILL GOING TO HIT YOU IN THE FACE AND KILL YOU"

Assault Riders, Hot Rods, Morning Stars, Crimson Jazzes, Devastators, Berserkers, Dancers, Dragoons, Demyx, Xaldin, Xigbar, etc.

Going into Valor or Master against any of these enemies is a disadvantage no matter what your playing style is.


Endless reflect spells should save you.
Which shouldn't even be necessary, since Normal Sora can do the job better with Guard + Counterguard and can also do Reflect Spam.


Hot Rod, which are hard to defeat no matter what form you're in),

No, it's pretty much only difficult to defeat in Valor. Even Master has Magic which should be enough to take it out. Though no Guard is still a huge disadvantage.


my attacks have never been deflected by any enemy.

I guess I haven't been specific enough. There's enemies that resist stagger when you try and hit them with your attacks (e.g. Morning Stars, Dragoons, Demyx, Saix) and will still interrupt your combo, and hit you in the face. Even the ones that DO stagger easily will eventually counterattack and STILL hit you in the face with some invincibility move after hitting them too many times. And trust me, Master and Valor have extremely long combos with many hits.

EDIT: Just tested it out on Demyx. As suspected, he breaks out Master's aerial combo before you even get a chance to do a finisher, then blasts you with water. This is the perfect example of why Master and Valor combos suck, because he's not the only enemy that can do this. Using Valor against him is just outright foolish with no magic. Valor's ground combo does about 5mm of health bar damage more than Normal Sora's ground combo, and Valor's air combo leaves you stuck in the air defenseless for him to water blast you.

Master and Valor suck.

[Depression Moon]

What do you mean by Critical Mode? When your in the red zone? Of course Valor form is the weakest, but other than that one I never found the other ones to be disadvantageous against any enemy or boss. Both anti and Master form helped me against Xigbar. Master allowed me to blocked all of his lasers, that can't be blocked like that with regular Sora when he traps you on that platform and for anti in that battle I was also able to dodge those same lasers and wasn't be able to get hit until the form wore off as the form made it easier for me to dodge all of his attacks.

[PuPu]

What do you mean by Critical Mode?

A new level of difficulty in Kingdom Hearts 2: Final Mix. It's like a remake of KH2 with extra stuff, released only in Japan. In Critical Mode, your HP bar is cut in half and you have the option of going through the entire game at level 1.


I never found the other ones to be disadvantageous against any enemy or boss

There are LOTS of enemies that have a nasty tendency to break out of your combo in Master and then hit you in the face. I have just tested it out against Demyx, and he is one of them.


Master allowed me to blocked all of his lasers

Huh? Master doesn't have Guard, and his white lasers CAN'T be blocked except by Reflect (and Warp Snipe RC for a certain attack), which Normal Sora can do as well.

Also, Xigbar likes breaking out of Master combos as well, except that he SHOOTS you in the face.



that can't be blocked like that with regular Sora when he traps you on that platform

You mean the one where his lasers can be avoided by literally running around in a circle?


and for anti in that battle I was also able to dodge those same lasers and wasn't be able to get hit until the form wore off as the form made it easier for me to dodge all of his attacks.

Yeah, I know that. But again, make one mistake while in Anti, and you're pretty much guaranteed a game over. This is true for pretty much all modes.

[Depression Moon]

Normal Sora cannotcast endless Reflect.
KH2:FM doesn't even apply to us, why even mention it?

[PuPu]

If you honestly need to cast Reflect more times than Normal Sora can perform it in a regular ground combo, then you're far better off just using Guard or other dodging methods.

I was mentioning KH2FM to emphasize the whole "make a mistake = instant death." It applies on Low Level Proud as well, though to a lower degree.

[LowCaloriePie]

Well shouldn't you expect that kind of difficulty? I mean, it's the hardest difficulty setting that halves your health meter. Topped with the choice to play through the game entirely on Level 1, that would make me think, "Oh snap, if I make one mistake I'm boned."

[PuPu]

And that's exactly what I mean. Making a mistake on Valor and Master is so easy that it's practically suicide on Critical Mode. Hell, a Shadow on my low level Proud mode challenge can take off ~1/4 of my total HP. Factor in Critical Mode's half HP, and you've got Shadows that can kill you in about two hits.

It's probably true that many of the people in this topic can usually just brush off the hits for quite some time until the beeping starts, then go "Oh no prob, Cure!" and repeat for most battles, which is why everybody is saying that Master and Valor are good.

Yes, Master has awesome AoE attacks and Valor combos slightly faster and slightly stronger than Normal Sora, but it hardly matters when you can get easily attacked and interrupted and possibly killed while doing said combos. In particular, Master Form because leaving yourself in the air makes you defenseless, regardless of whether or not you manage to finish your combo uninterrupted. The same for Valor, since its aerial attacks are also faster and stronger than its ground attacks, but leave you in the air. It's just that most people are able to ignore this flaw because the damage that they receive is usually not enough to knock them into beeping until after MANY hits.

And there's still the major problem of losing Guard and getting nothing equal in return for it, since Guard stops at least 90% of all attacks in the game. Going through Critical without Guard is like going through a desert without a water bottle.

[LowCaloriePie]

Yes, Master has awesome AoE attacks and Valor combos slightly faster and slightly stronger than Normal Sora, but it hardly matters when you can get easily attacked and interrupted and possibly killed while doing said combos. In particular, Master Form because leaving yourself in the air makes you defenseless, regardless of whether or not you manage to finish your combo uninterrupted. The same for Valor, since its aerial attacks are also faster and stronger than its ground attacks, but leave you in the air. It's just that most people are able to ignore this flaw because the damage that they receive is usually not enough to knock them into beeping until after MANY hits.

Isn't that what the Ariel Recovery ability for?

[PuPu]

Aerial Recovery doesn't kick in unless you get hit.

[arcanedude34]

Err... I found every form (save Wisdom) to be useful in certain situations, and if you don't, then you're probably not using them right. I don't see why we're debating this anyway, it all depends on play style.

[PuPu]

Err... I found every form (save Wisdom)

Maybe you should try using Magic?


to be useful in certain situationsWhat situations could you possibly be talking about? Fighting a group of Shadows and Soldiers? Against just about every tough Heartless/Nobody enemy that I've listed in this thread several times and practically every boss, Master and Valor are useless due to "LOL I BREAK YOUR COMBO AND HIT YOU NOW" and "OH CONGRATS YOU GOT ME, NOW I'LL SIT HERE AND LET YOU HIT ME"


and if you don't, then you're probably not using them right. http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b81/alien_gundamneo/RI/1251312318259.jpg

It's practically impossible to use every form "wrong" save for Wisdom form, which you've done a good job of doing. I mean, the ONLY thing that you can do in Valor is "Run up to enemy, mash X" and the only things you can do in Master is "Run up to enemy, mash X" or "Jump at enemy, mash X" or cast a few magic spells, then mash X.

Master and Valor turn your strategy into total offense, since these forms give you piss poor defense. And you'll NEED defense for all the enemies spamming invincibility attacks and such. Not to mention that their offense sucks as well, since both forms' combos are just screaming "BREAK MY COMBO AND I'M HELPLESS." And MANY enemies have stagger resistance to easily interrupt you.

EDIT: Master Magic is hardly spammable either, since each hit counts as a finisher, and enemies have a MUCH higher rate of counter-attacking after performing too many finishers. Demyx countered after TWO Master Fires.

Demyx is the perfect example of why Master and Valor suck and I shouldn't even have to explain why Anti sucks.

I don't see why we're debating this anyway, it all depends on play style.The sheer ignorance in this post practically makes me want to cry.

"LOL WELL MASTER AND VALOR ARE TOTALLY USEFUL IF YOU IGNORE EVERYTHING THAT MAKES NORMAL SORA BETTER"

[arcanedude34]

Or Master and Valor are better if you don't suck at the game and NEED to spam block and cure. :D

And for the record, yeah, I know how to use Wisdom. Magic just blows ass in this game and Final does a much better job of making it more useful anyway.

[LowCaloriePie]

I don't see why we're debating this anyway, it all depends on play style.The sheer ignorance in this post practically makes me want to cry.

You don't get out much... do you? :tongue:

[PuPu]

Or Master and Valor are better if you don't suck at the game

> he doesn't know how to use Guard or Magic
> has probably never played a difficulty higher than Beginner
> implying that I'm the one who sucks

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b81/alien_gundamneo/RI/1258510032156.png


NEED to spam block> implying that preventing yourself from getting damaged is a bad thing



and cure.

>implying that it's even possible to spam Cure
>has probably never even played the game before


Magic just blows ass in this game

Not surprising when it's said by a person who doesn't know how Magic even works in this game.


Final does a much better job of making it more useful anyway.

Final is good, but Master and Valor are bad and they match your KH skills in terms of how much they suck.


You don't get out much... do you? :tongue:

You do realize you're telling this to me through an internet message board, right

edit


PuPu, I know you take your gamez and internets super serious

Telling others why they're wrong I'm right about games = serious business? Funny, I always saw it as "killing time." Besides, isn't that what this forum is meant for?


but you need to chill out.

You haven't seen me throwing insults, have you?


Too many of your posts are right on the cusp of rude

"You're bad at a game" = rude?


before I'm forced to ban you.

For breaking...which rule?


There is no need for you to be arguing your points on video game tactics this aggressively. Be civil.

Aggressive? The long walls o' text are all just info. If anything, this post is just a half hearted attempt at replying to someone that didn't actually read my post.

[Shlup]

PuPu, I know you take your gamez and internets super serious, but you need to chill out. Too many of your posts are right on the cusp of rude, and there's only so many reported posts my email inbox can handle before I'm forced to ban you.

There is no need for you to be arguing your points on video game tactics this aggressively. Be civil.