In this thread, a person more powerful than every FF character

[PuPu]

Yeah, it's Sora. The guy that can jump incredibly large heights and distances, slice through buildings, move at incredibly fast speeds, and beat Hercules, Sephiroth, Xehanort's Heartless, Xemnas, and an army of Heartless single-handedly.

It's also incredible how his fighting abilities grow at an exponential rate throughout the games. He goes from being able to push back Shan-Yu in a sword duel, to being able to throw Storm Rider into the sky. The reaction commands in battle are examples of how he is able to analyze his opponents' attacks and form counter attacks. Pair him together with Riku, and they're strong enough to defeat God.

So how will Nomura come up with a new enemy to stop this ridiculously powerful, but extremely dopey guy?

[Tavrobel]

Sora has a concept of death, so he is vulnerable to the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception.

[Mercen-X]

Yeah, the FF cameos backfire due to these particular character's inability to match even a tenth of Sora's strength (save for Sephiroth whom at least puts up a decent fight and according to the in-game storyline is not actually defeated by Sora... I guess, the same is technically true for the heroes Sora has fought against, but they don't have the strength to beat his enemies... the only point to the heroes being able to "beat" Sora is to show how weak he currently is).

They should cameo other FF big bads for Sora to fight (and "fail" against) so we can see the heroes having their moment to shine in a game that isn't their own.

[PuPu]

Sora has a concept of death, so he is vulnerable to the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception.

Does not. As far as he knows, "death" means turning into a Heartless. Plus, Fate (see: Nomura) loves him and would never kill him.


They should cameo other FF big bads for Sora to fight (and "fail" against) so we can see the heroes having their moment to shine in a game that isn't their own.

I didn't just mean the FF characters in the KH games. I meant the FF characters from all the FF games.

[Tavrobel]

Does not. As far as he knows, "death" means turning into a Heartless.

That's still a concept of death. It's not ours, but it is one. He is bulnerable to MEoDP.

[Mercen-X]

They should cameo other FF big bads for Sora to fight (and "fail" against) so we can see the heroes having their moment to shine in a game that isn't their own.

I didn't just mean the FF characters in the KH games. I meant the FF characters from all the FF games.

What does that matter again?

No reason to mention this, but I'll do it anyway, Cloud and Sephiroth (and undoubtedly several others) can also jump incredibly large heights and distances, slice through buildings, move at incredibly fast speeds, and defeat massive armies and ridiculously powerful enemies.

It's just like watching an anime like Dragonball, YuYu Hakusho, or BLEACH, each time a new big bad comes along it's as if the main character's level has been reset back to basics (although with a few sweet new moves in tow).

[PuPu]

Cloud and Sephiroth was able to slice like...sections of a building in AC? Sora could slice through 7 in the blink of an eye.

But yeah, you're probably right. They'll probably do some crazy "make Sora forget everything he learned" stunt like in CoM.

[qwertysaur]

Mushroom XIII round 2 :p

[Mercen-X]

But yeah, you're probably right. They'll probably do some crazy "make Sora forget everything he learned" stunt like in CoM.That would suck. But I don't doubt Sora will lose the ability to take on new forms. If anything, he'll simply find new ways to use the abilities granted to him by those forms.

Undoubtedly, they'll presume Sora hasn't mastered his forms to learn Quick Run, High Jump, Air Dodge, Dodge Roll (from Final Mix Limit Form (http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/Limit_Form)), and Glide so he can relearn how to use those (with a twist in style) to access new areas as usual. But I'd at least hope that the bastards would include the ability to learn all of his other neat tricks: Sliding (Wisdom), Hovering (Final), Shooting (Wisdom), Telekinesis (Master & Final), etc.
I'd especially like to have the ability to wield Four Keyblades although Sora's ability to wield to Keyblades has already been explained and wielding four wouldn't make sense... unless, he were dual-wielding two Light Realm Keyblades and two Dark Realm Keyblades (two would hover behind him like in Final Form).

[blackmage_nuke]

You could argue it's the Keyblade that's strong and not Sora

[PuPu]

Yeah I think Sora covered that in KH1 with "I don't need a weapon. My friends are my power!" when he lost the keyblade to Riku then got it back immediately after saying that

[blackmage_nuke]

But when he lost the keyblade he could barely kill 1 heartless. I cant tell whether you're agreeing with me or not. If his friends are his power then his friends are strong not him

[PuPu]

But when he lost the keyblade he could barely kill 1 heartless.

Yeah, it's because he's using a hunk of wood. I mean if the most that it could do is cause Tidus to get dazed after a dozen hits, then it's a horrible weapon to use to fight beings made of darkness. It's practically like telling somebody to kill a man using a pool noodle. It's pretty difficult to kill almost anything using a hunk of wood, much less beings made of darkness.



If his friends are his power then his friends are strong not him

...he doesn't literally mean that his friends give him magical powers to defeat Heartless.

[No.78]

Well his power comes from a key right? Which means, he needs to fight someone who uses a card key. The next stage in keyblade technology.

[PuPu]

The keyblade does give him some power, like most weapons would, but it's not like he's he's just a regular kid without it.

After all, Keyblades are given to people with strong hearts, and a strong heart means pretty much everything in the KHverse.

[Tavrobel]

Well his power comes from a key right? Which means, he needs to fight someone who uses a card key. The next stage in keyblade technology.

Keyblades aren't magnetic, which is how a card scanner works. I would argue that the next natural stage in Keyblades is Keycleavers. After Keycleavers, pocket-sized Keyblades. Of course, it would pretty redundant for a weapon that can be recalled instantly from the infinite backpack-hole dimension to become smaller and more compact, but they might one day create dampening fields to prevent recall (in case a Keyblade Civil War breaks out... again).

However, we do see what is the prototypical version of an anti-Heartless laser defense system in Hollow Bastion. If they can manipulate that system to read information rather than to emit an explosive blast, that would provide not only a way to identify people in the KHverse (which people seem to have real problems with), but also provide more potent defenses and exponential technological growth.


I'd especially like to have the ability to wield Four Keyblades although Sora's ability to wield to Keyblades has already been explained and wielding four wouldn't make sense... unless, he were dual-wielding two Light Realm Keyblades and two Dark Realm Keyblades (two would hover behind him like in Final Form).

KHII FM+ includes a fight with Roxas; Sora is able to borrow the power of both of Roxas' Keyblades after a successful Reaction Command. If you hack Final Form Sora into the fight against Roxas and complete the Reaction Command, he does wind up using four Keyblades.

Although according to this video, they don't do much other than when Roxas attacks; Sephiroth doesn't get hit by them at all. Ohh well! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5Uo0YCXZpA&fmt=18)

[blackmage_nuke]

Im not saying Sora would be completely Powerless without the keyblade, Im saying ALOT of his heartless killing ability comes from the keyblade. Argueing that he is stronger than Squall or Cloud because they cant kill heartless like Sora can is invalid.

[qwertysaur]

In days Roxas and Xion are the only members who can kill heartless because it is explicetly stated that you need the keyblade in order to do so.

[Ouch!]

In days Roxas and Xion are the only members who can kill heartless because it is explicetly stated that you need the keyblade in order to do so.
More specifically, one requires a keyblade to release the hearts consumed by said heartless. I guess we can presume destroying a heartless with any other weapon merely results in its temporary return to darkness or something of the sort.

[PuPu]

Im saying ALOT of his heartless killing ability comes from the keyblade.

Well, Sora could kill Shadows and Darkside perfectly fine with Dream Sword/Shield/Staff as well. Hell, Sora managed to kill Shadows by making them roll off of him in KH2.

But I guess you're right to say that the Keyblade does help with it, since it's more "super-effective" against Heartless than other weapons.


Argueing that he is stronger than Squall or Cloud because they cant kill heartless like Sora can is invalid.

But Cloud and Squall can't kill 1000 Heartless single handed.


I guess we can presume destroying a heartless with any other weapon merely results in its temporary return to darkness or something of the sort.

Correct. Killing a Heartless with any non-Keyblade weapon causes it to return to the Realm of Darkness, which eventually will cause it to return once it recovers from the damage.

[Tavrobel]

In days Roxas and Xion are the only members who can kill heartless because it is explicetly stated that you need the keyblade in order to do so.
More specifically, one requires a keyblade to release the hearts consumed by said heartless. I guess we can presume destroying a heartless with any other weapon merely results in its temporary return to darkness or something of the sort.

In addition, whenever another (non-Keyblade) character destroys a Heartless, a Heart does not pop out of the defeated target. Just the shadow-y animation; this lends more to the idea that without the Keyblade, the release does not occur.

The Dream weapons and Awakening are weird. That particular world can't be said to follow the rules of everything else in the KH universe. That isn't also to say that Sora isn't pretty special: it's been established that he is not only unique, but an important brand of unique in the KH world. Sora is pretty damn powerful, and in fact, we can compare him to Squall and Cloud, because he can beat them in the tournaments. They might not be at their original power, but Sora operates in a universe where there is something worse than death. That can't be said of VII or VIII.

I would say that Sora is more powerful than most of the other FF characters, but we are mixing power levels here. Just because Lexaeus can get up to 99999 doesn't mean much (apparently).

[Depression Moon]

KH isn't canon with the FF universe. I'll hate the day when some spiky haired- half Disney, half anime-loooking 16-year old can whoop any FF character's ass, except for Edward.

[PuPu]

KH isn't canon with the FF universe.

That doesn't change the fact that Sora in the KHverse is still stronger than every FF character in their respective games as well.


I'll hate the day when some spiky haired- half Disney, half anime-loooking 16-year old can whoop any FF character's ass, except for Edward.

Uh oh.

[Tavrobel]

That doesn't change the fact that Sora in the KHverse is still stronger than every FF character in their respective games as well.

It's not a fact because we don't have empirical evidence comparing the universes.

There's only one solution: put Sora into the next installment of Smash Bros.

[PuPu]

It's not a fact because we don't have empirical evidence comparing the universes.But we can compare the strength of the enemies that they've beaten.

Sora and Riku managed to beat Xemnas with the power of KH. They beat the most powerful character in the KHverse (confirmed by Nomura), who was further powered up with the ultimate power source of the KHverse.

The various FF characters had to assemble teams of 4-14 people to beat their respective final bosses. And most of the final bosses didn't have anything close to omnipotence like Xemnas did. (Kefka was probably the closest to omnipotence with his "controlling all magic minus the Espers" schtick, but it took a party of ~14 FF characters to take him out)


There's only one solution: put Sora into the next installment of Smash Bros.

Well if Solid Snake could...

[Tavrobel]

Not to say that I disagree with you, because Sora is wildly powerful, but we also have to consider that the enemies didn't exactly have have overpowered competition. While the final bosses often had to fight parties as opposed to single characters, it's not like the main characters themselves were all that powerful. I definitely would say that Sora > main characters, but I think he would have equal footing with Sephiroth and Kuja. Based on abilities, Sora has more than a fighting chance.

Now, let's not compare numbers. The poor boy has only got 120 HP and < 100 for Attack, Defense, and Magic. He doesn't even have Evasion or Accuracy! Holy Hell!


Well if Solid Snake could...

I don't see why not. Sora does have a double jump and several Up-B-worthy moves, such as Aero or Reflect. Dodge Roll or Quick Run could easily be Side-B moves if Sora is considered a "fast" character. Down-B could be Fire1/2/3, or Gravity1/2/3. Regular B could be Ice1/2/3 or some kind of mish-mash of a solo Trinity (or even Session) series of strikes.

[*Devore*]

Why are you debating this, the main character in anything is always the strongest. I don't think I've ever watched or played anything were there is someone stronger than the main character at the very end. For example, if Cloud was stronger, wouldn't they just get Cloud to go with them.

Anyway, I'm almost 100% sure that they will resest all of Sora's stats in the new game, like always.

[PuPu]

With many of the other FF villains, they usually had enough power to destroy the world. I mean, Sephiroth had about half the planet's power with Lifestream. But Xemnas had extreme power on a universal scale, as compared to a single planet such as Sephiroth or Kuja.

Also, there is no concept of death in KH. At all. There goes MEODP.

Ctrl + F "death" in the following link for proof.
Director Interview – KH3 Details from BBS Ultimania (Complete) « HEARTSTATION.ORG (http://heartstation.org/?p=2097)

[Tavrobel]

The Mystic Eyes also attack flaws; Sora is definitely flawed. Wikipedia Kara no Kyoukai and Tsukihime.

[PuPu]

Well Sora is a dopey kid, but I'm not sure what that has to do with this.

The Mystic Eyes can't see death dots and death lines if they don't exist. And in KH, they don't.

[qwertysaur]

What happened to Braig, Dilan, Even, Eleus, Ienzo, Isa, and Lea then? I thought they are all dead now.

[Sephiroth]

They've turned into awful looking beings like Xehanort writes in the Ansem reports.

And Kingdom Hearts is not 100 % logical. While most of the moments in the story should fit to the logical explanations like the reports or interviews moments which are not that important just interfere. That's normal for such a fantasy story. Making mistakes is just human.

Pupu is just a loser and an idiot at the same time who got banned for being this. He knows nothing about Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts. So don't believe him in case you don't want to get as idiotic as he is. He just tries to provoke and insult other people. Even if he is banned now. He still exists so don't start a discussion with him. He knows nothing. He even thinks something only exists when you can prove it and doesn't understand that he is the idiot who is wrong since the proof that something existence can only exist when the thing which shall be proved exists before or at the same time - that depends on what it is.

[Tavrobel]

The Mystic Eyes can't see death dots and death lines if they don't exist. And in KH, they don't.

They do. Death is not just a state of unlife, it is also the manifestation of the ultimate end of something that does not exist in a perfect state. In the KHverse, death as we know it does not exist, but it does exist as a transcendental representation of a flaw. That's what the Mystic Eyes attack.

Also, Disney.

But as I'm typing this up, I think I've realized that I don't think that you've realized that I'm making a point that comparing universes is a flawed idea.

tl;dr: I've been making fun of you since post #1.


What happened to Braig, Dilan, Even, Eleus, Ienzo, Isa, and Lea then? I thought they are all dead now.

Your guess is as good as mine, but to be technical, a person doesn't die when they cast off their Heart or lose it. Their existence splits up into all of those other components that we see in the KH games.

[PuPu]

They do. Death is not just a state of unlife, it is also the manifestation of the ultimate end of something that does not exist in a perfect state.

But what you're talking about doesn't exist either. There is no ultimate end for anybody or anything in the KHverse, and I'm willing to wager that you can't name anybody in the KH games that meets their ultimate end.


But as I'm typing this up, I think I've realized that I don't think that you've realized that I'm making a point that comparing universes is a flawed idea.

tl;dr: I've been making fun of you since post #1.Saying "Because I said so" like you've been doing doesn't make your point any less invalid. Not that I ever did compare the universes at all, merely the characters of the universes.

[qwertysaur]

Demyx met his ultimate end. :colbert:

[PuPu]

As it turns out for Organization XIII members and all Nobodies, they don't have an ultimate end because they will become Somebodies again once their Heartless are killed by a Keyblade, assuming it hasn't already happened.

[Goldenboko]

Demyx met his ultimate end. :colbert:

Daaaaaaaaaaamn straight.

EDIT: Judging things by in game things don't work son. His keyblade can cut through a building during a reaction command, but not a small wooden fence that I need it too in Poo's World?

[Tavrobel]

killed

lol

[PuPu]

EDIT: Judging things by in game things don't work son. His keyblade can cut through a building during a reaction command, but not a small wooden fence that I need it too in Poo's World?

Somebody doesn't know the difference between a plot element and a gameplay element.



killed

lol

"Defeated," if you want. It's not like Heartless are actually living things to begin with.

[Goldenboko]

EDIT: Judging things by in game things don't work son. His keyblade can cut through a building during a reaction command, but not a small wooden fence that I need it too in Poo's World?

Somebody doesn't know the difference between a plot element and a gameplay element.

I'd say that they're both equally as invalid in this case. Why doesn't my keyblade instantly plow through my enemies in one hit like it does in the reaction command then?

[PuPu]

I'd say that they're both equally as invalid in this case. Why doesn't my keyblade instantly plow through my enemies in one hit like it does in the reaction command then?

I stand by my original point.

[Tavrobel]

"Defeated," if you want.

I want to start discussing the idiosyncrasies of the English language in attempting to describe very specific concepts of fictional universes.

I on the other hand, I always kill the Elite Four's Pokemon.

[Goldenboko]

"Defeated," if you want.

I want to start discussing the idiosyncrasies of the English language in attempting to describe very specific concepts of fictional universes.

I on the other hand, I always kill the Elite Four's Pokemon.

I always los-

Oh. :(

[PuPu]

I want to start discussing the idiosyncrasies of the English language in attempting to describe very specific concepts of fictional universes.

Go ahead, it doesn't mean that you aren't wrong.

[Tavrobel]

pointless antagonism

I'm going to have to say that GB's response would be the more accurate one to describe the situation.


I always los-

Oh. :(

[qwertysaur]

"Defeated," if you want.

I want to start discussing the idiosyncrasies of the English language in attempting to describe very specific concepts of fictional universes.

I on the other hand, I always kill the Elite Four's Pokemon.
Even Agatha and Phoebe's?

[Goldenboko]

I think he would have forced them into the state of non-existence.

[PuPu]

pointless antagonism

I'm going to have to say that GB's response would be the more accurate one to describe the situation.

Says the guy who's got nothing left except "lol"

[Tavrobel]

Even Agatha and Phoebe's?

Yes. I can kill Ghosts, too.


Says the guy who's got nothing left except "lol"

I think you missed the point, dude.

[PuPu]

Says the guy who's got nothing left except "lol"

I think you missed the point, dude.

...that post had a point?

>he thinks grasping at straws = making a point

[Mercen-X]

Well his power comes from a key right? Which means, he needs to fight someone who uses a card key. The next stage in keyblade technology.

Keyblades aren't magnetic, which is how a card scanner works. I would argue that the next natural stage in Keyblades is Keycleavers. After Keycleavers, pocket-sized Keyblades. Of course, it would pretty redundant for a weapon that can be recalled instantly from the infinite backpack-hole dimension to become smaller and more compact, but they might one day create dampening fields to prevent recall (in case a Keyblade Civil War breaks out... again).Have I mentioned the Guncipher? My ideas to be included in my ficitional tale are a technological laserkey resembling a gunblade and a runilogical (or magical) laserkey resembling the Quincy's bow.

I'd especially like to have the ability to wield Four Keyblades although Sora's ability to wield two Keyblades has already been explained and wielding four wouldn't make sense... unless, he were dual-wielding two Light Realm Keyblades and two Dark Realm Keyblades (two would hover behind him like in Final Form).

KHII FM+ includes a fight with Roxas; Sora is able to borrow the power of both of Roxas' Keyblades after a successful Reaction Command. If you hack Final Form Sora into the fight against Roxas and complete the Reaction Command, he does wind up using four Keyblades.
Although that sounds nifty, it's a hack trick thus non-canon. I don't want to have to hack my game (and I don't even own Final Mix or +) just to "hold" four keyblades in a five-second reaction command.

Well, Sora could kill Shadows and Darkside perfectly fine with Dream Sword/Shield/Staff as well.Funny that you mention it's a dream.

Arguing that he is stronger than Squall or Cloud because they cant defeat heartless like Sora can is invalid.
But Cloud and Squall can't defeat 1000 Heartless single-handed.They don't fight with the aid of the Keyblade which is powered by Sora's heart which is strengthened by his bonds of friendship with Donald, Goofy, Kairi, Riku, Mickey, Cloud, Squall, Yuffie, Aerith, Tifa, Tron, Hercules... need I go on?



I guess we can presume destroying a heartless with any other weapon merely results in its temporary return to darkness or something of the sort.

Correct. Killing a Heartless with any non-Keyblade weapon causes it to return to the Realm of Darkness, which eventually will cause it to return once it recovers from the damage.Much like on Supernatural in which killing the human host or performing an exorcism is only a temporary solution for ridding the world of demons whereas the Colt and that freaky Knife can actually KILL the demons possessing humans or taking on other forms.



It's not a fact because we don't have empirical evidence comparing the universes.But we can compare the strength of the enemies that they've beaten.

Sora and Riku managed to beat Xemnas with the power of KH. They beat the most powerful character in the KHverse (confirmed by Nomura), who was further powered up with the ultimate power source of the KHverse.

The various FF characters had to assemble teams of 4-14 people to beat their respective final bosses. And most of the final bosses didn't have anything close to omnipotence like Xemnas did. (Kefka was probably the closest to omnipotence with his "controlling all magic minus the Espers" schtick, but it took a party of ~14 FF characters to take him out)Someone doesn't know the difference between a plot element and a gameplay element.

Cloud was able to defeat Sephiroth and Bahamut Sin alone in Advent Children. Vincent was able to defeat the Tsviets and Omega WEAPON alone in Dirge of Cerberus.
Neither Cloud nor Squall ever begged anyone to come along with them to defeat the evil because they couldn't handle it alone, it's just how the game plays.



There's only one solution: put Sora into the next installment of Smash Bros.

Well if Solid Snake could...To be discussed in another thread.


Why are you debating this, the main character in anything is always the strongest. I don't think I've ever watched or played anything were there is someone stronger than the main character at the very end. For example, if Cloud was stronger, wouldn't they just get Cloud to go with them.
Well, I think Lloyd was killed by someone other than the main character in Legend of Dragoon and up to that point, he was considered stronger than the main characters. 400-year-old king Seda of Dark Cloud is notably stronger in battle than Toan will ever be, but since he spawned the Dark Genie, he simply cannot defeat it. In Wild Arms 4, Kresnik is notably more powerful than the entire group until he meets his death. Typically, in a game, if another character outmatches the main character, that character gets killed off in some way usually through self-sacrifice. Without time given to improve their shortcomings, main characters tend to be rather outmatched in any situation. If Naruto's butt hadn't been pulled out of the fire in the nick of time ever so often, there's no way he'd ever have been a match for any of the creeps he's defeated. Oh, sorry for the diversion into anime territory, but they all derive of the same source regardless.

Well Sora is a dopey kid, but I'm not sure what that has to do with this.

The Mystic Eyes can't see death dots and death lines if they don't exist. And in KH, they don't.Sora has a staunch lean toward impulse and anger (much like some other characters we know). Him being a dopy kid has nothing to do with his flaws.

[PuPu]

Funny that you mention it's a dream.

Funny that there's still nothing in the dream that breaks KHverse laws. Though if you want another example of Sora's power without his Keyblade, Anti-Form.


They don't fight with the aid of the Keyblade which is powered by Sora's heart which is strengthened by his bonds of friendship with Donald, Goofy, Kairi, Riku, Mickey, Cloud, Squall, Yuffie, Aerith, Tifa, Tron, Hercules... need I go on?

What's your point? You've proven that Sora has an incredibly strong heart, which makes him really powerful. And more powerful than Cloud and Squall.


Much like on Supernatural in which killing the human host or performing an exorcism is only a temporary solution for ridding the world of demons whereas the Colt and that freaky Knife can actually KILL the demons possessing humans or taking on other forms.

Didn't think of that, but yeah.


Someone doesn't know the difference between a plot element and a gameplay element.

If you're going to criticize me for something, at least do it right.


Cloud was able to defeat Sephiroth and Bahamut Sin alone in Advent Children. Vincent was able to defeat the Tsviets and Omega WEAPON alone in Dirge of Cerberus.

And none of those enemies were as powerful as Xemnas.


Neither Cloud nor Squall ever begged anyone to come along with them to defeat the evil because they couldn't handle it alone, it's just how the game plays.

I did it as a generalization of FF games, but there's still no way for you to prove that a majority of those FF characters could take on their final bosses alone.


Sora has a staunch lean toward impulse and anger (much like some other characters we know). Him being a dopy kid has nothing to do with his flaws.

...what? That impulse and anger is one of his greatest strengths.

Either way, refer to "death doesn't exist in KH"

[qwertysaur]

What happened to Ansem the Wise if death doesn't exist? I thought he died :p

[PuPu]

What happened to Ansem the Wise if death doesn't exist? I thought he died :p

He gets sent to the Realm of Darkness; this is shown at the ending of Birth By Sleep.

[Depression Moon]

if death doesn't exist in the KH verse then why did the trio act like this in this scene? YouTube - Kingdom Hearts II - Goofy's Death (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4XzlAwWkXQ)

[PuPu]

In all honesty, you can't really say for sure whether they were acting like he was dead or if he was in a coma.

[blackmage_nuke]

Funny that you mention it's a dream.

Funny that there's still nothing in the dream that breaks KHverse laws. Though if you want another example of Sora's power without his Keyblade, Anti-Form.


But Sora becomes piss weak in anti form. Sure he can move quickly and deal alot of fast hits but so can Squall and Cloud. Also his form powers come from his clothes+merging with a party member, so its not really his power.


But Cloud and Squall can't defeat 1000 Heartless single-handed

We cant know that for sure. We only know Sora can do it with the keyblade, whats to say if Cloud or Squall were chosen to weild the keyblade, they couldnt do it too?

[PuPu]

But Sora becomes piss weak in anti form.

Gameplay element. By plot standards, he becomes stronger, what with being able to use the powers of darkness.


Sure he can move quickly and deal alot of fast hits but so can Squall and Cloud.

But there's still the fact that Sora has defeated stronger enemies than either of them.


Also his form powers come from his clothes.

The ability to change into Forms come from clothes, but his abilities in those forms come from the power in his heart. Besides, it isn't that different from Cloud getting his powers from Materia, Squall getting his powers from Junctions, etc. Sure, it's where they get their power from, but the strength of their abilities from using Magic from Junctions and Materia is their own.


We cant know that for sure. We only know Sora can do it with the keyblade, whats to say if Cloud or Squall were chosen to weild the keyblade, they couldnt do it too?

They weren't chosen by the keyblade. That itself proves they aren't strong as Sora, because the power of one's heart = everything.


Also his form powers come from his clothes+merging with a party member, so its not really his power.

Limit Form.

[Mercen-X]

there's still nothing in the dream that breaks KHverse laws. Though if you want another example of Sora's power without his Keyblade, Anti-Form.

You've proven that Sora has an incredibly strong heart, which makes him really powerful. And more powerful than Cloud and Squall.But precisely which large army of Heartless have you seen Sora dispatch without the aid of his Keyblade? If he were placed in an FFverse (wherein the Keyblade isn't the weapon of choice for defeating enemies), he'd be just another dopy kid.

And none of those enemies were as powerful as Xemnas.Nomura admitted to Xemnas being the most powerful KHverse villain. Where did he say anything about him being the most powerful SEverse villain? Where's your proof?

I did it as a generalization of FF games, but there's still no way for you to prove that a majority of those FF characters could take on their final bosses alone.The point is then moot as there is no way for you to prove they could not.

...what? That impulse and anger is one of his greatest strengths.Just because it plays as a strength doesn't mean it is one inherently. Being impulsive and easily angered has always been seen as a flaw of one's character.



I shouldn't even have to explain why Anti sucks.
Gameplay element. By plot standards, he becomes stronger, what with being able to use the powers of darkness.
Yes, he can dole out massive damage to smaller Heartless, but he doesn't have the Keyblade to finish them so it takes even longer in the end if he can defeat them at all. Anti-Form is just a handicap (not to mention disgusting). And where is it said that he's stronger due to the powers of darkness?

The ability to change into Forms come from clothes, but his abilities in those forms come from the power in his heart. Besides, it isn't that different from Cloud getting his powers from Materia, Squall getting his powers from Junctions, etc. Sure, it's where they get their power from, but the strength of their abilities from using Magic from Junctions and Materia is their own.So, if Cloud had, like, a Xenomateria with every support, command, summon, magic, and special ability at his disposal, do you still think he'd not be as strong as Sora physically? Or if Squall was equipped with Ultimecia's ultimate Guardian Force Junction?


They weren't chosen by the keyblade. That itself proves they aren't strong as Sora, because the power of one's heart = everything....and True Love's Kiss is the most powerful thing in the world. These are thematic elements. The power of Sora's heart wouldn't be worth shet if he were thrust in the FFverse. That's the real reason Disney owns the rights to the original characters of Kingdom Hearts despite the fact that Square Enix created them.



Also his form powers come from his clothes+merging with a party member, so its not really his power.

Limit Form.According the Kingdom Hearts Wiki, Limit Form is really not that great. So, jog on.

[Hollycat]

Ah, but Sora is only fighting the younger versions of everybody, and ansem and Xemnas are blow offs
Plus, after fighting Sephiroth, he is exhausted, but Sephiroth just smiles and asks for cloud, plus this is cloud before the buster sword and omni slash.
I think I should go into KH
Lets see Sora win against my 2306 needles, while my evasion is 255

[Slick]

I think that the original poster is missing the fact that Sora and most of the characters in KH were made by Nomura, and you can't judge a character like Bartz or Terra. You all keep mentioning Cloud and Sephiroth, but honestly those guys aren't even a quarter of the FF universe.

[Mercen-X]

Stats actually don't hold much application in this thread as the plot of a game does not determine a character's beginning and end stats nor do a character's stats determine his role in the plot.

However, Sora does have one strength that the other characters do not. He's young. He has an awful lot of time on his hands to learn how to be just as powerful as any FF character if he ever needed to travel to an FFverse (which will never happen).


I think that the original poster is missing the fact that Sora and most of the characters in KH were made by Nomura, and you can't judge a character like Bartz or Terra. You all keep mentioning Cloud and Sephiroth, but honestly those guys aren't even a quarter of the FF universe.

Yes. Cloud and Sephiroth are being used a lot mostly because they were included in the KHverse. But PuPu did also mention Kefka and he has no grounds for that.

[Hollycat]

I think that the original poster is missing the fact that Sora and most of the characters in KH were made by Nomura, and you can't judge a character like Bartz or Terra. You all keep mentioning Cloud and Sephiroth, but honestly those guys aren't even a quarter of the FF universe.

Very true, lets see Sora beet down Maria and Ririon and the Emporor and The Empror 2 and Caos and Neoexdeath and Ruby element and emerald element and Kefka and Ultemecia and Babl and Zeromus and SIN(GOOD LUCK) AND OMEGA WEAPON AND SHINRYU and Omega and all of the Ultima weapons and deathgaze and Edea.
Then I will recognize him as #1.....

[Slick]

I think that the original poster is missing the fact that Sora and most of the characters in KH were made by Nomura, and you can't judge a character like Bartz or Terra. You all keep mentioning Cloud and Sephiroth, but honestly those guys aren't even a quarter of the FF universe.

Yes. Cloud and Sephiroth are being used a lot mostly because they were included in the KHverse. But PuPu did also mention Kefka and he has no grounds for that.

Well he said Sora was more powerful than ANY FF character from ANY game, and honestly, Kingdom Hearts lurks in a realm of mystery and dreams and there isn't even enough information background-wise about the world to even know what it's like. All we get is a glimpse of each world, and assume that each world is a large expanse.

The problem with that theory is that each world has its own rules and guidelines, you can't simply just say that Sora is stronger than everyone! In all other FF worlds there ARE no heartless, therefore, Sora, while being an OK swordsman, he is no Terra, he is no Kefka. He can't summon in other worlds, he is merely a boy with a key for a sword, and that's where the argument has to spread out.

If you're playing on the chance there MIGHT be heartless in those worlds, then yes he would be the strongest, but unfortunately, there aren't!

EDIT: Also, Sora isn't the only one who can cross to different worlds. Galuf and a bunch of others from FF5 did so. Actually, even ExDeath himself is from another world.

[PuPu]

But precisely which large army of Heartless have you seen Sora dispatch without the aid of his Keyblade?Why should that matter? I could say the same thing by saying that Cloud and Squall couldn't have defeated any of their enemies without Materia, either.


If he were placed in an FFverse (wherein the Keyblade isn't the weapon of choice for defeating enemies), he'd be just another dopy kid.No, he's still be an incredibly skilled swordsman, able to slice through buildings and such.


Nomura admitted to Xemnas being the most powerful KHverse villain. Where did he say anything about him being the most powerful SEverse villain? Where's your proof?The fact that Xemnas had the power on a universal scale vs the other villains which had power on a worldwide scale.


The point is then moot as there is no way for you to prove they could not.*faceboilingacid*

You are the one that brought up the assertion that the FF characters could defeat their final bosses single-handedly, thus you need to provide proof that you are right before I have to provide proof that you are wrong. If you can't provide any proof in the first place, then I don't need to prove you wrong, because your assertion automatically fails.

I've seen tons of people use the "I'm right because you can't prove me wrong" tactic, so I'll provide you of an example of why it doesn't work.

Child A says that unicorns exist.
Child B says that Child A can't prove unicorns exist.
Child A says "Well you can't prove that they don't exist!"
According to the logic that you're trying use against me, unicorns are real.


Just because it plays as a strength doesn't mean it is one inherently. Being impulsive and easily angered has always been seen as a flaw of one's character.

...but it hardly matters what it is commonly seen as or how it applies to other people, since for Sora, it's not a flaw. I mean, if you had to pick a flaw, you could have at least used him being dopey.


Yes, he can dole out massive damage to smaller Heartless, but he doesn't have the Keyblade to finish them so it takes even longer in the end if he can defeat them at all.

...he can still defeat the Heartless, and still do, just like Cloud and Squall in the KHverse. It's just that in this case, the Heartless come back later on. It doesn't weaken his fighting ability.


Anti-Form is just a handicap (not to mention disgusting).

For releasing hearts, but not for fighting.


And where is it said that he's stronger due to the powers of darkness?

...does it need to be directly said? He gains a form of power that he normally doesn't have, thus becoming stronger. Riku became stronger when he gains the powers of darkness as well.


So, if Cloud had, like, a Xenomateria with every support, command, summon, magic, and special ability at his disposal, do you still think he'd not be as strong as Sora physically? Or if Squall was equipped with Ultimecia's ultimate Guardian Force Junction?

Neither of these actually happen...so what are you trying to say? In either case, the answer is still no.


The power of Sora's heart wouldn't be worth shet if he were thrust in the FFverse.

Even without the Keyblade, there's still the fact that he's an incredibly skilled swordsman. And the power of the heart/will does come into play in certain points of FF games. The final boss of FF9 is one of the more significant examples I can think of.


That's the real reason Disney owns the rights to the original characters of Kingdom Hearts despite the fact that Square Enix created them.

And here I thought it was because Nomura signed a contract.


According the Kingdom Hearts Wiki, Limit Form is really not that great. So, jog on.

First of all, KH wiki is unmoderated and unsourced trash and never use it for information unless you're sure you can back it up with some other source.

Second of all, I have no idea what you mean by "not that great" but I'll cover both possibilities of gameplay and plot.

Gameplay wise, Limit is the best Form in the game, and it is even better than Final. Unlike other forms, you have to ability to use Guard and then use Zantetsu Counter to strike back enemies. But most importantly, you've got "I'M INVINCIBLE" KH1 techniques which are arguably Sora's most damaging attacks in the game, and they also restore HP for hitting enemies. Dodge Roll is also the best Growth ability in the game, giving several times more invincibility frames than in KH1. Example of how good Limit Form is. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Li87nZcMgL4)

Plot wise, he gains all his abilities that he lost since KH1. Remember how Castle Oblivion took away all of his KH1 powers? Limit Form just gave Castle Oblivion a giant middle finger.


Plus, after fighting Sephiroth, he is exhausted,

What? No he isn't. The fight ended with Sephiroth unfazed at his loss and Sora asking him if he wanted to get beat again.

[!] google_ad_section_start [/!]
I think that the original poster is missing the fact that Sora and most of the characters in KH were made by Nomura, and you can't judge a character like Bartz or Terra. You all keep mentioningCloud and Sephiroth, but honestly those guys aren't even a quarter of the FF universe.

I'm judging by the power of the enemies that Sora and the FF characters have defeated.


Very true, lets see Sora beet down Maria and Ririon and the Emporor and The Empror 2 and Caos and Neoexdeath and Ruby element and emerald element and Kefka and Ultemecia and Babl and Zeromus and SIN(GOOD LUCK) AND OMEGA WEAPON AND SHINRYU and Omega and all of the Ultima weapons and deathgaze and Edea.

He already beat down someone that's stronger than all of those enemies you listed.


If you're playing on the chance there MIGHT be heartless in those worlds, then yes he would be the strongest, but unfortunately, there aren't!

Sora beat the most powerful person in the KH universe single handedly.

The FF characters had to form teams of 4-14 people to take out the most powerful person in their world. Sora only needed one other person to help him take out the most powerful person in the KHverse + the strongest power source in the KHverse.

And remember that the power that Sora had to face is on a universal scale, and that the FF characters had to take on power of a worldwide scale.

[Hollycat]

Very true, lets see Sora beet down Maria and Firion and the Emporor and The Empror 2 and Caos and Neoexdeath and Ruby element and emerald element and Kefka and Ultemecia and Babl and Zeromus and SIN(GOOD LUCK) AND OMEGA WEAPON AND SHINRYU and Omega and all of the Ultima weapons and edea and deathgaze
Sora vs:
Maria
shot
Firion
hit by Ultima
Emperor
Sora wins, hit the emperors nuts
Emperor2
sora dies
Caos
Sora gets hit by meteor
Zeromus
Sora gets hit by Ultima and Yang gives him a wedgie (from the dead)
Ultemecia
CENSORED
Edea
Frozen to death
Neo ex death
Sora wins, neo is just a tree
Neo ex death re
Sora gets pummeled by twenty heads trying to make out with the girl part
Ruby
Sora gets swallowed by sand
Emerald
Sora drowns
Kefka
???
Babl
to gruesome to write
Sin
.................. impossible, like hitting god with a peice of sand
Omega weapon
Sora is obliterated, no funeral
Shinryu
Sora is eaten
Omega
Sora is squished
Deathgaze
Sora dies, duh
Ultima Weapons
ENILATION
gilgamesh
sora wins against excalapoor
Cero (from my own game design: EVERLASTING)
Sora dies of fear at the sight of a twenty mile tall demon

[Hollycat]

Actually, in the disk damage calculations of KH2, Sora's attack and defense go down by over 60 % in anti form, but his speed increases
sorry about the double post

[Slick]

He's only the most powerful because it's filled with Disney worlds, honestly. What the hell? How can you even compare stats of those enemies? That's like saying we were made by some unknown entity and then not saying anything else.

You need to realize that Sora's world and the other worlds aren't even in the same category. You can't judge the world of Kingdom Hearts to the world of Final Fantasy, as they are completely separate entities, and the character are only there for a slight tie-in to Square Enix, as a business favor to themselves.

[PuPu]

He's only the most powerful because it's filled with Disney worlds, honestly. What the hell? How can you even compare stats of those enemies? That's like saying we were made by some unknown entity and then not saying anything else.

I don't have any idea of what you're trying to say here. Explain to me why the fact that KH has Disney worlds matters at all.


You need to realize that Sora's world and the other worlds aren't even in the same category. You can't judge the world of Kingdom Hearts to the world of Final Fantasy, as they are completely separate entities, and the character are only there for a slight tie-in to Square Enix.

KH is a universe of worlds in multiple dimensions (Realm of Light, Realm of Darkness, Realm of In-Between, Realm of Nothing) while FF is typically one world, three in FFV. Hell yeah, they aren't in the same category. KH is a much bigger universe, making its ultimate power source much more significant than the ultimate power sources of FF.

FF is still only a couple of worlds, and KH is arguably a multiverse.

Not to mention that I'm mostly comparing final bosses, not the worlds themselves.

[Slick]

He's only the most powerful because it's filled with Disney worlds, honestly. What the hell? How can you even compare stats of those enemies? That's like saying we were made by some unknown entity and then not saying anything else.

I don't have any idea of what you're trying to say here.


You need to realize that Sora's world and the other worlds aren't even in the same category. You can't judge the world of Kingdom Hearts to the world of Final Fantasy, as they are completely separate entities, and the character are only there for a slight tie-in to Square Enix.

KH is a universe of worlds in multiple dimensions (Realm of Light, Realm of Darkness, Realm of In-Between, Realm of Nothing) while FF is typically one world, three in FFV.

FF is still only a couple of worlds, and KH is arguably a multiverse.

Not to mention that I'm mostly comparing final bosses, not the worlds themselves.

That's where your research goes wrong. If you want to test who's the stronger, you're going to research the HP, and stats of every monster and enemy in all of the FF worlds and then compare them to each world individually, and then compare each world individually to the Kingdom Hearts 'multiverse'.

Also, what I was pointing out was that Kingdom Hearts is set mostly in a Disney setting, it has little background for itself, it doesn't even explain how anything occurred (though im sure it will if it hasn't, I haven't played BBS nor do I plan to).

Even if Sora killed the most powerful being of that 'multiverse' it has no adverse effect on the other worlds, because the villain of that 'multiverse' doesn't exist in the world of Final Fantasy, and yes Final Fantasy has covered darkness before. Please, I have to ask which you're talking about. Are you talking about Xemnas? Because if you are, he did not beat Xemnas single-handedly.

[Hollycat]

The stats of Kh are linked to ff, and if you notice, sora never nears the stats of ff heros, and neither does xemnas, his stats are pretty low....

[PuPu]

That's where your research goes wrong. If you want to test who's the stronger, you're going to research the HP, and stats of every monster and enemy in all of the FF worlds and then compare them to each world individually, and then compare each world individually to the Kingdom Hearts 'multiverse'.

...no I don't. Stats are a gameplay element and reveal nothing as to how strong they are plotwise. Ruby and Emerald Weapon are not stronger than Sephiroth, despite them having stronger stats.


Also, what I was pointing out was that Kingdom Hearts is set mostly in a Disney setting, it has little background for itself, it doesn't even explain how anything occurred (though im sure it will if it hasn't, I haven't played BBS nor do I plan to).

I'm not seeing how this matters.


Even if Sora killed the most powerful being of that 'multiverse' it has no adverse effect on the other worlds, because the villain of that 'multiverse' doesn't exist in the world of Final Fantasy

Again, not seeing how this matters. Plus, Xemnas is stronger than the other FF villains because he is "the strongest being" on a much larger scale.


Please, I have to ask which you're talking about. Are you talking about Xemnas? Because if you are, he did not beat Xemnas single-handedly.

YouTube - Kingdom Hearts II - Xemnas 1 (Boss) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCwyXOFONf0)


The stats of Kh are linked to ff, and if you notice, sora never nears the stats of ff heros, and neither does xemnas, his stats are pretty low....

Incorrect.

[Slick]

Again, you're not understanding that those universes, multiverses, whatever do not cross. They do not exist within each other. If you put Sora in an FF game he wouldn't make it 3 steps. If you put Terra in Kingdom Hearts she wouldn't make it 3 steps. It's all irrelevant and a useless argument.

[PuPu]

You're not getting it either. I never proposed the "crossing universes" schtick, this was something that was brought up by others in this topic.

I was always trying to say that Sora's strength in KH is stronger than FF characters in FF.

Not Sora in FF. Not FF characters in KH.

[Slick]

You're not getting it either. I never proposed the "crossing universes" schtick, this was something that was brought up by others in this topic.

I was always trying to say that Sora's strength in KH is stronger than FF characters in FF.



The problem is that you can't simply just say that, you need facts, you need stats. When you compare two different worlds universes you need to have some kind of proof instead of just randomly blurting out something like that.

How do you know that just because Xemnas was the most powerful in his multiverse he's more powerful than someone like Kefka? ExDeath?

That's insane, and that's not how someone goes about reaching that kind of conclusion.

[Hollycat]

The ultimate showdown:
Xemnas vs Sin

obvious win

[PuPu]

The problem is that you can't simply just say that, you need facts, you need stats. When you compare two different worlds you need to have some kind of proof instead of just randomly blurting out something like that.

The fact is that KH is a much bigger place than FF.
The fact that it's a much bigger place than FF means that when something is "top ranked" in KH, it will be greater than something "top ranked" in FF. Due to being on a larger scale.

As I've told you, stats are worthless and don't matter.


How do you know that just because Xemnas was the most powerful in his multiverse he's more powerful than someone like Kefka? ExDeath?

Now you're just plain ignoring my posts. Xemnas was "most powerful" on a larger scale than Kefka or ExDeath. That's why.


That's insane, and that's not how someone goes about reaching that kind of conclusion.

No, using gameplay stats like HP to judge plot strength is insane when they have nothing to do with each other.

[Slick]

Okay we're obviously not getting anywhere with this.


Just because something has a larger scale it does not mean it has things that are stronger, it simply does not work that way. The ONLY enemies those worlds have are Heartless and Nobodies, which honestly, thats where you stop, there is NOTHING else but Heartless and Nobodies.

EDIT: By the way this is really fun debating with you :P

[PuPu]

Just because something has a larger scale it does not mean it has things that are stronger, it simply does not work that way.

More often than not, it does actually.

The strongest person in my local gym is most likely not going to be stronger than the strongest person in an entire country.


The ONLY enemies those worlds have are Heartless and Nobodies, which honestly, thats where you stop, there is NOTHING else but Heartless and Nobodies.

I'm really not understanding what your point is. Heartless and Nobodies are quite strong as well, you know.


By the way this is really fun debating with you :P

Most people on this site would probably disagree.

[Hollycat]

The point is that the keyblade is only good against nobodies and heartless, unless he's fighting an insect, as in the 1st game they say the keyblade only has a special eefect aginst created enemies

[PuPu]

The point is that the keyblade is only good against nobodies and heartless, unless he's fighting an insect, as in the 1st game they say the keyblade only has a special eefect aginst created enemies

Tell that to Maleficent and her villain gang.

[Hollycat]

They all became heartless. the only non ff carachters who isnt heartless or nobody is shan yu and pete. and they are pathetic!
I submit Eden from ff8 as the most powerful character, it does more universal damage than super nova

[PuPu]

They all became heartless. the only non ff carachters who isnt heartless or nobody is shan yu and pete. and they are pathetic!
lolno


I submit Eden from ff8 as the most powerful character, it does more universal damage than super nova
lolgameplayelement

[Hollycat]

Lolpupuhas10health

[Slick]

More often than not, it does actually.

The strongest person in my local gym is most likely not going to be stronger than the strongest person in an entire country.


Okay, now just because Russia is the biggest continent country in the entire world, it doesn't mean that it's the strongest in the world.



I'm really not understanding what your point is. Heartless and Nobodies are quite strong as well, you know.


Okie, here, let me give you an example, k?

You say because the universe is bigger, then the enemies must be stronger right? Well, in that ENTIRE multiverse, there are only 2 types of enemies! While Final Fantasy has hundreds of thousands of different type of enemies and derivatives. Now, you try and combine and reiterate all of the Final Fantasy worlds into one whole multiverse, and there you have to find the strongest :P.





Most people on this site would probably disagree.

Lol, would they? That's because they don't enjoy being right :P

[Hollycat]

Russia is not a continent, im a catus and I know that

[Slick]

Russia is not a continent, im a catus and I know that
:o you're right! It's still a country though :P

[Hollycat]

What!!!! I thought it was a state!!!!
Not rly

[PuPu]

Okay, now just because Russia is the biggest continent in the entire world, it doesn't mean that it's the strongest in the world.

Ignoring that obvious bolded mistake, you seem to have taken what I said and managed to reverse it and completely change its meaning into something I didn't say.


You say because the universe is bigger, then the enemies must be stronger right?

Not quite. I'm saying that KH's ultimate power source > any FF power source.


Well, in that ENTIRE multiverse, there are only 2 types of enemies!

Humans are enemies as well. Not to mention that these 2 types of enemies are still quite strong, actually.


While Final Fantasy has hundreds of thousands of different type of enemies and derivatives.

Hardly matters, since hundreds of thousands of those enemies aren't even close to being the strongest.


Now, you try and combine and reiterate all of the Final Fantasy worlds into one whole multiverse, and there you have to find the strongest :P.

Doesn't matter. Individually, their strongest power sources and enemies aren't stronger than Xemnas and KH, and putting them together won't make any difference.

By the way, now you're the one trying to cross universes.


Lol, would they? That's because they don't enjoy being right :P

It's actually the opposite, and you'll soon learn that as well.

[Hollycat]

Quite strong??? it takes Sora 5 minutes to waste a Behemoth as apposed to Odin killing it instantly

[Slick]

Let me tell you this, they aren't wrong, in all of the cases I have seen you have been almost always wrong.

Now, you still have not shown me proof that the entity you're trying to represent is the strongest, therefore you are still wrong. Sorry. :P

Also, lol, pointing out a simple mistake, huh? How petty :P

But please, by all means please keep thinking that what you're saying is logic because honestly you're going to have a tough time convincing anyone. I've played my part in this thread by de-railing the logic that you provide, it'll be someone else's to disprove you entirely.

[Hollycat]

I ended your thread for you.

[PuPu]

Let me tell you this, they aren't wrong, in all of the cases I have seen you have been almost always wrong.

Which is quite an odd thing to say when I've got things that prove that I'm right, and you don't.


Now, you still have not shown me proof that the entity you're trying to represent is the strongest, therefore you are still wrong. Sorry. :P

I have given proof, actually. You ignore the things I say by plugging your ears shouting "lalalala I can't hear you" all you want, but it doesn't make you any less wrong.


But please, by all means please keep thinking that what you're saying is logic because honestly you're going to have a tough time convincing anyone.

I'm not going to bother trying to convince someone who ignores everything that proves him wrong and pretends as if I didn't say all those things which make him wrong.


I've played my part in this thread by de-railing the logic that you provide

Congratulations for managing to de-rail something that I didn't ever say. And also for managing to de-rail your own logic by crossing universes, even though you say it's illogical.


it'll be someone else's to disprove you entirely.

Hopefully they'll do a better job than you by not ignoring the things which prove him wrong and not backpedal on their own logic.

[Slick]

You didn't prove anything, you merely said because that universe is bigger Xemnas is stronger, therefore Sora is stronger.

Sorry to break it to ya, but that is not proof, unless you have some actual numbers to prove that, you won't have proof :P

But go ahead, please try again! Pretty please!

Also, I didn't de-rail my own logic, I merely tried to put in a way someone like you would understand, obviously you didn't lol.

[Hollycat]

Put it this way, When sora is given a weapon other than trhe keyblade, he cant fight off a shadow

[PuPu]

You didn't prove anything, you merely said because that universe is bigger Xemnas is stronger, therefore Sora is stronger.

Which is fact, and to deny it like you are doing is to deny the truth.


Sorry to break it to ya, but that is not proof, unless you have some actual numbers to prove that, you won't have proof :P

>he can't even provide numbers for his own statements
>he doesn't know the definition of proof


But go ahead, please try again! Pretty please!

>has given up on his argument entirely and resorted to ad hominem attacks


Also, I didn't de-rail my own logic, I merely tried to put in a way someone like you would understand, obviously you didn't lol.

In this quote: denial of truth

[Slick]

Why should I give numbers when you yourself wont give any numbers?

Oh please, that's so ridiculous lol. You just proved yourself wrong, because by saying that the universe is bigger, it is stronger, you need to have proof of that, and you simply don't. Sorry!

[Hollycat]

sora has a stat limit of 99 naturaly, but can be pushed up to 155.
ff goes to 255, and has better summons

[PuPu]

Why should I give numbers when you yourself wont give any numbers?

...because I don't need to. Because you don't know how "proof" works.



the universe is bigger, it is stronger

>he changes the original point that I actually said into something I didn't say

[Slick]

Why should I give numbers when you yourself wont give any numbers?...because I don't need to. Because you don't know how "proof" works.

Yes you do! You need something substantial to give me proof that your theory is right! Hell if science worked this way Gravity would be non-existant!



the universe is bigger, it is stronger>he changes the original point that I actually said into something I didn't say
Wait a minute, hold on one sec, k?


The fact is that KH is a much bigger place than FF.
The fact that it's a much bigger place than FF means that when something is "top ranked" in KH, it will be greater than something "top ranked" in FF. Due to being on a larger scale.

lmfao wait a minute, what? What did you not say?

[Hollycat]

actually ff takes place on many different worlds and includes many different universes such as the 3 stooges (6) dream (8) lifestream (7) death (2) Exneodeath (5) and dream of the faythe (10)

[PuPu]

Yes you do! You need something substantial to give me proof that your theory is right

Which I have, and you're pretending it doesn't exist because it makes you wrong.


lmfao wait a minute, what? What did you not say?

In this quote: can't read words

That when a universe is bigger, it is stronger. I'm talking about things inside the universes, not the universes themselves.

[Hollycat]

Yes you do! You need something substantial to give me proof that your theory is right

Which I have, and you're pretending it doesn't exist because it makes you wrong.


lmfao wait a minute, what? What did you not say?

In this quote: can't read words

That when a universe is bigger, it is stronger. I'm talking about things inside the universes, not the universes themselves.

Read my post above this one.
Also, In KH you see the entire universe, in ff7 and 8 you see that there are many more planets left to explore

[PuPu]

Read my post above this one.
Also, In KH you see the entire universe, in ff7 and 8 you see that there are many more planets left to explore

Your posts are so incredibly wrong that I shouldn't even need to explain why they are wrong. Just stop trying.

[Slick]

What have you given me which is substantial? Please say it again, just for the sake of the thread, and the people reading the thread knowing.


Also LOL, wow. Always dwelling on minor technicalities and petty insults to try to make me lose focus or something, I guess. Sorry, but I won't :P

[Hollycat]

To see how big ff universe is, watch sephiroths super nova andd you see that his universe is our universe, which encompasses the KH universe, or watch Eden summon and see an entire galaxy destroyed.

[PuPu]

What have you given me which is substantial? Please say it again, just for the sake of the thread, and the people reading the thread knowing.
>can't read words

The strongest person at my local gym is most likely not stronger than the strongest person of another country.

>country is a larger scale than gym
>"strongest" of former more significant than latter


Also LOL, wow. Always dwelling on minor technicalities and petty insults to try to make me lose focus or something, I guess. Sorry, but I won't :P

>has already lost focus on his argument by resorting to ad hominem attacks

[Hollycat]

I have been left with no choice, I am using 2368 needles on your thread.
kfaheklgheghkajddfgnleiejjfkdglak

thread died

[Slick]

The strongest person at my local gym is most likely not stronger than the strongest person of another country.

Wrong, the quote was:


The strongest person in my local gym is most likely not going to be stronger than the strongest person in an entire country.

Then I went ahead and said that because Russia is a bigger country, it doesn't mean it's the strongest. We both know America has the best guns right now.

Yet, you didn't reply to that. But let's see you do it now.

[Hollycat]

I would like to emphasize the fact that the only reason Sora is any good is the Keyblade, when it is taken away it doesn't matter what enemy he fights, he wont win.

[PuPu]

Wrong, the quote was:

>they both have the exact same meaning


Then I went ahead and said that because Russia is a bigger country, it doesn't mean it's the strongest. America has the best guns right now.

>completely unrelated to what I actually said
>asssumes the exact opposite of what I said


Yet, you didn't reply to that. But let's see you do it now.

>can't read words

[Hollycat]

Youll notice he dosn't reply to my assertions.

[PuPu]

Youll notice he dosn't reply to my assertions.

Anyone reading this thread knows that everything you said isn't even close to being right.

[Hollycat]

Youll notice he dosn't reply to my assertions.

Anyone reading this thread knows that everything you said isn't even close to being right.

Considering I have dissected the programs of both games and have 100% beaten every game I talk about except ff8, I would say I am correct.

[Slick]

>completely unrelated to what I actually said
>asssumes the exact opposite of what I said


Um that's the point of a debate, guy. Please get the through your head. Also, it is related to what you said, because what you said ties into the whole universe being bigger means the bad guys are stronger things, remember?

Please try to use actual responses next time? Cause now everyone sees you can't even make a serious attempt at a proper case for your so-called 'logic'.



Youll notice he dosn't reply to my assertions.

He doesn't reply to anyone's anymore, he simply replies with chanboard layouts and tries to insult it's pretty funny xD

[PuPu]

Considering I have dissected the programs of both games and have 100% beaten every game I talk about except ff8, I would say I am correct.

Consider spreading your misinformation in another thread, then.


Um that's the point of a debate, guy. Please get the through your head.

>he thinks that arguing against something I didn't say is proving me wrong


Also, it is related to what you said, because what you said ties into the whole universe being bigger means the bad guys are stronger things, remember?

>he compares the universes themselves
>I compare the things inside the universes
>unrelated


Please try to use actual responses next time? Cause now everyone sees you can't even make a serious attempt at a proper case for your so-called 'logic'.

>he gives up his argument to throw petty insults
>he expects me to give a serious response to his fail, backpedaling logic
>probably doesn't know what logic even means


and tries to insult it's pretty funny xD

>irony

[Hollycat]

Consider this, Roxas is stronger than Sora, KH2 uses a positive multiplier when calculating the damage done by Roxas, as opposed to a negative multiplier on Sora.

[Slick]

You done?

I messed up once, said the universe thing, now all I said was incorrect? I think not.

Oh and I compared the guns inside Russia to the guns within the US. Guns also covering all other weapons.

You're boring, can't even make a good point, and all you do is put your own logic on the backseat and point out mistakes, please next time try to actually, you know, make a point? lol

[Hollycat]

Cuactar out.

[PuPu]

I messed up once, said the universe thing, now all I said was incorrect? I think not.

>thinks that going back on his own logic is proof for why he's right


Oh and I compared the guns inside Russia to the guns within the US. Guns also covering all other weapons.

>didn't mention "strongest" or any synonyms for describing the guns
>can't prove that U.S. guns are better or stronger than Russian guns
>not sure if he knows what he's even talking about


You're boring, can't even make a good point

>irony


and all you do is put your own logic on the backseat

>has not giving anything yet which proves my logic wrong


and point out mistakes, please next time try to actually, you know, make a point? lol

>he gives up his argument to try and make petty insults
>expects me to actually make a point
>irony at its finest

[Slick]

ahuh, k.


I'll prove to you why our 'guns' are better as soon as you prove why your theory is right, which will be never. Sorry.


/thread.

[PuPu]

I'll prove to you why our 'guns' are better as soon as you prove why your theory is right, which will be never. Sorry.

>he uses his point of guns as something to prove me wrong
>admits that he can't prove his point
>thus the point fails to prove me wrong
>I still have proof which proves me right
>he no longer has proof which proves me wrong

Now, is the appropriate time for:


/thread.

[Depression Moon]

it actually ended here


It's not a fact because we don't have empirical evidence comparing the universes.


bye have a nice time arguing with yourself

[PuPu]

it actually ended here


It's not a fact because we don't have empirical evidence comparing the universes.


bye have a nice time arguing with yourself

>can't read words


I'm talking about things inside the universes

[Shlup]

Does this thread even have a topic anymore? I can't tell.

I don't mind leaving it open as long as the level of argument doesn't escalate any further. Watch the personal attacks; if they go any further at all you'll all get warning, and some of you can't really afford them.

http://i25.:bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou:/11vjyhk.jpg

[Mercen-X]

Everything that has been argued since my last post has been ridiculous. Why do I have to suddenly defend PuPu when I'm obviously against his logic?

From what I've read (it took me a few minutes to cool off and re-read and a few days to find a computer with internet again), PuPu has NOT suggested a crossing of universes. Actually, I think I was the first one to actually suggest that. PuPu is speaking in terms of Relativity.

Sora's strength in KH in relation to the average FF hero's strength is PWNing. The only character that seems to have reached Universal power in FF seems to be Kefka (althought I think Ultimecia also qualifies to say the least).

However, PuPu that does not dismiss you from your flawed logic.

When I've argued that Sora would not much more than a kid in FF, you claimed that he is an expert swordsman. He's not. Sora's strengths all rely heavily on the Keyblade which grants him not only significant power but knowledge as well. He could not perform his best attacks or even fine attacks while using weapons like the stick, the Struggle club, or the Dream Weapons much less his invincible attacks or Drives.

You've argued that Sora is more powerful because in the Final Battle, it was he and Riku who defeated Xemnas alone and it takes FF characters parties of 8 to 14 to win their Final Battle. This cannot be proven. It can also be easily disproven by a skilled player. For although you could claim a player's skills as being a gameplay element with no role in plot, the fact that a small party can defeat their final boss is still relevant.

I will concede that Sora and Riku are a stronger pair because they defeated an enemy possessing universal strength. But do not bring numbers into the argument.

One last thing.

The strongest person in my local gym is most likely not going to be stronger than the strongest person in an entire country.The strongest person at your gym and in the country are still part of the same reality. Thus this argument is meaningless.


>country is a larger scale than gym
>"strongest" of former more significant than latterMore significant means more important, but it doesn't mean the guy from the gym isn't the strongest in the country, there's no proof offered of that.

[PuPu]

When I've argued that Sora would not much more than a kid in FF, you claimed that he is an expert swordsman. He's not.

I'm reminded of a certain time when he sliced through seven buildings in the blink of an eye.


Sora's strengths all rely heavily on the Keyblade which grants him not only significant power but knowledge as well.

...no it doesn't. That's the same thing as saying that Cloud relies heavily on his sword to grant him power and that Squall relies heavily on his gunblade to grant him power.


He could not perform his best attacks or even fine attacks while using weapons like the stick, the Struggle club, or the Dream Weapons much less his invincible attacks or Drives.

1. He could still use Magic and abilities such as Sonic Blade with the wooden sword. He didn't lose these abilities when he lost Kingdom Key.

2. He could still use all of his Action and Support abilities that he learned on his journey when using the Struggle Bat, even Trinity Limit.

3. He wasn't as experienced as when he was using Dream Weapons. But he gained a lot of experience and fighting skills.

4. By the logic that you're using against me, Cloud and Squall is never shown to be able to defeat their enemies without the Buster Sword or Gunblade, so therefore I could make the exact same argument that their power comes from those weapons as well.


You've argued that Sora is more powerful because in the Final Battle, it was he and Riku who defeated Xemnas alone and it takes FF characters parties of 8 to 14 to win their Final Battle. This cannot be proven.

It can be proven because it's exactly what happened. The argument that Terra could have taken out God Kefka alone isn't any more valid than the argument that Sora could have taken out Final Xemnas alone.


It can also be easily disproven by a skilled player. For although you could claim a player's skills as being a gameplay element with no role in plot, the fact that a small party can defeat their final boss is still relevant.

But it doesn't change what the plot actually says happened. Sure, I could do a Solo Squall challenge against Ultimecia and win, and I could also hack KH2 into removing Riku from the Final Xemnas battle and win as well, but it doesn't change the fact that the story says all the FF characters worked together to defeat their final bosses and that Sora and Riku worked together to defeat Final Xemnas.


The strongest person at your gym and in the country are still part of the same reality. Thus this argument is meaningless.

Alright, the strongest person in my gym (located in the USA) vs. the strongest person in Russia. They are now completely different and completely unaffected by each other, which is practically the same thing as different realities.


More significant means more important, but it doesn't mean the guy from the gym isn't the strongest in the country, there's no proof offered of that.

There's no 100% certainty, but there is a 99.9999% certainty that the guy in my gym isn't going to be stronger than the strongest man in Russia.

[blackmage_nuke]

Sora's strengths all rely heavily on the Keyblade which grants him not only significant power but knowledge as well.

...no it doesn't. That's the same thing as saying that Cloud relies heavily on his sword to grant him power and that Squall relies heavily on his gunblade to grant him power.

However Cloud's sword is (for all we know) just a normal sword. If we were to give Cloud and Sora struggle bats, remove any magical clothing/accesories/materia. Sora would be significantly weakened.



The strongest person at your gym and in the country are still part of the same reality. Thus this argument is meaningless.

Alright, the strongest person in my gym (located in the USA) vs. the strongest person in Russia. They are now completely different and completely unaffected by each other, which is practically the same thing as different realities.


More significant means more important, but it doesn't mean the guy from the gym isn't the strongest in the country, there's no proof offered of that.

There's no 100% certainty, but there is a 99.9999% certainty that the guy in my gym isn't going to be stronger than the strongest man in Russia.


No but they are still operating by the same universe/rules. Different games opperate under different rules. What you are claiming is that the worlds greatest boxer is a better fighter than the worlds greatest taekwando master because the worlds greatest boxer defeat the taekwando master in a boxing match.

[Tavrobel]

However Cloud's sword is (for all we know) just a normal sword. If we were to give Cloud and Sora struggle bats, remove any magical clothing/accesories/materia. Sora would be significantly weakened.

Well, to be perfectly fair, Cloud's Buster Sword has two holes in it, and as we all know, having holes in your weapon improves aerodynamicity.

True story.

[PuPu]

However Cloud's sword is (for all we know) just a normal sword

And Sora's keyblade, for all we know, has the ability to release hearts. There's nothing which suggests that Keyblades give powers to their wielders either, and there's nothing which suggests that the Keyblade gave Sora the ability to leap hundreds of feet in the air.


If we were to give Cloud and Sora struggle bats, remove any magical clothing/accesories/materia. Sora would be significantly weakened.

Not anymore than Cloud would, since if you take away everything that supposedly makes them both superhuman...then they would both be significantly weakened.


No but they are still operating by the same universe/rules. Different games opperate under different rules.

Which hardly matters, since power works in practically the same way in all games. Or at least, in these games. They may have different forms of power, but they still have power, nonetheless.

What you are claiming is that the worlds greatest boxer is a better fighter than the worlds greatest taekwando master because the worlds greatest boxer defeat the taekwando master in a boxing match.

I...don't think I was claiming this, but even if I was, the statement in this quote is still true.

EDIT: Actually...I'm not seeing at all how this analogy came from:

Xemnas being the more powerful entity in a multiverse that is KH vs Sephiroth being the most powerful entity in the planet of FF7.

To fix your analogy, it's more like:

Xemnas is a better fighter than Sephiroth because Xemnas is Russia's best boxer while Sephiroth is only my local town's best taekwando master. Emphasis on Xemnas being the best fighter, and nothing specific such as the better boxer or taekwando master, though the former is probably true. I'm not saying that Xemnas has more control over Lifestream than Seph does and I'm not saying that Seph has more control over KH than Xemnas. At least, I think this is what your analogy is trying to imply. Sure, Lifestream and KH are different forms of power, but still power nonetheless.

[blackmage_nuke]

What I was trying to say was all FF characters are severely weakened in the KH universe. Comparing what monsters they can or cannot defeat is invalid until you can prove that Sora can defeat any monster in an FF universe with the same ease as the FF characters

[PuPu]

What I was trying to say was all FF characters are severely weakened in the KH universe.

I'm not trying to argue for the whole "crossing universes" thing but...

I'll admit that KH's version of many characters is a lot weaker than their FF versions. For example, Seifer. But let's say that it was actually the 18 year old FF8 Seifer that was actually put in KH. There really isn't anything to suggest why he would be weaker in the KHverse assuming it WAS the FF8 Seifer.


Comparing what monsters they can or cannot defeat is invalid

Well...I was mostly only comparing Sora vs Xemnas and the FF characters against their own final bosses with varying numbers of people. I don't see how comparing the characters with their respective games' enemies is invalid.



until you can prove that Sora can defeat any monster in an FF universe with the same ease as the FF characters

Again, not trying to do the "crossing universes" thing, but the fact that Sora can beat Xemnas, who is arguably more powerful than most FF monsters is certainly a good indication, I would say.

[Mercen-X]

Xemnas being the more powerful entity in a multiverse that is KH vs Sephiroth being the most powerful entity in the planet of FF7.

Sorry, I have to retract my earlier concession as I had assumed you'd attributed universal powers to Xemnas rather than what you've stated above.

Although Sephiroth may have been "only" the most powerful being on the Planet, he has no interest in anything other than Cloud in KH and doesn't even acknowledge Sora to have beaten him. If he'd had any interest in Kingdom Hearts, we have no proof that Xemnas would have been more powerful.
Even if Kingdom Hearts were a "multiverse" (which it isn't), it wouldn't mean the creatures therein are more powerful than any single Final Fantasy universe.
Kingdom Hearts isn't even a multiverse anyway. A multiverse would imply several coinciding universes that each play by their own rules. Kingdom Hearts simply draws several differing universes together and forces them all to abide by its rules. This changes the process of acquistion. Sora's abilities are not hard to learn, they come to him swiftly and efficiently and even conveniently as the plot demands. He doesn't gain the majority of his ability through "experience" as Final Fantasy characters would but instead they simply make themselves available when the story decides they're needed. Just because his level goes up and his stats increase slightly, doesn't mean he's gaining any new abilities.

[PuPu]

Sorry, I have to retract my earlier concession as I had assumed you'd attributed universal powers to Xemnas rather than what you've stated above.I was under the impression that absorbing KH DID give him universal powers.


and doesn't even acknowledge Sora to have beaten himThat doesn't mean that he didn't get beat, though.


If he'd had any interest in Kingdom Hearts, we have no proof that Xemnas would have been more powerful.No, Xemnas still would have as said by Nomura. Because the truth is, KH Sephiroth isn't one of the most powerful guys in the KHverse, regardless of how tough his boss fight is.


Even if Kingdom Hearts were a "multiverse" (which it isn't)Yes, it is. It has multiple planes of existence, which are each assumed to be infinite. They are known as:

Realm of Light
Realm of Darkness
Realm of In-Between
Realm of Nothing


it wouldn't mean the creatures therein are more powerful than any single Final Fantasy universe.Not something that I ever argued for.


A multiverse would imply several coinciding universes that each play by their own rules.They do play by their own rules, actually. See, unlike the other realms, in the Realm of Nothing, you slowly fade away until you are completely wiped from existence unless you can remember your past like Ansem the Wise did.


Sora's abilities are not hard to learnThrowing a dragon into the sky and slicing through seven buildings in the blink of an eye isn't hard?


they come to him swiftly and efficiently and even conveniently as the plot demands.Which is proof of his amazing growth ability throughout the series.

I mean, in KH1 he starts from being an island kid playing with a toy sword to beating the strongest Heartless in existence in ~23 days.

Then when he lost all of his KH1 abilities in CoM due to Castle Oblivion, he was still able to experience a rapid enough growth to take down Organization XIII's (6th?) strongest member in ~25 days.

Then when he lost all of his Castle Oblivion powers during KH2, he was still able to go from nothing to gaining back his KH1 powers with Limit Form, and then to being strong enough to be able to beat the strongest person in the KHverse. Don't know how long this took, but I'm assuming it's not that much of a difference from the other two.

If you're thinking that I made up these numbers in days, I'm not. (http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b81/alien_gundamneo/DaysCompleteTimeline.jpg)

The Reaction Commands in KH2 could tell you that Sora knows how to analyze his enemies' attacks and devise counter attacks. They exist for a lot of normal Heartless and Nobodies, and they exist for every single boss fight in the game. You might think that RCs are gameplay elements, but there are two things that say otherwise:

1. Many of these RCs have cutscenes, and cutscenes are essentially the game's way of showing you what exactly happens in the story. Especially in KH2, the game that has so many cutscenes that the cutscenes alone can pass off as their own game.

2. Many RCs are also unavoidable and are required to beat the story. This is just about every RC in the final battles.



He doesn't gain the majority of his ability through "experience" as Final Fantasy characters would but instead they simply make themselves available when the story decides they're needed.Yes he does. After every single boss fight in KH2, he gains a new ability. RCs are essentially counter-attack strategies, and they don't just come to Sora because the story makes it convenient. They come to him, or anyone for that matter, as a result of being skilled and having good knowledge of fighting tactics.


Just because his level goes up and his stats increase slightly, doesn't mean he's gaining any new abilities. I never brought stats into this. But certain things do in fact say that he's gaining new abilities, such as Donald/Goofy handing him Dodge Roll, Cloud handing him Sonic Blade, and the fact that every single boss battle victory in KH2 has him learn a specific new ability. These ability gains are unavoidable elements as you progress through the story, so they pretty much are canon.

[Mercen-X]

Suffice to say that Xemnas is not all-powerful. He does not possess universal power (not even worth mentioning the fact he didn't absorb a complete KH), although he is the most powerful being at that point in Sora's time within the KHverse which the FF characters present therein could not beat (apparently, even while banded together). Within this KHverse, actually "defeating" darkness requires one to be wielding a Keyblade, a weapon which only four characters possess (if you include Kairi), this not representing the perpetual strength of the original KH characters (or lack thereof in FF characters represented therein) but instead denoting the power within their hearts which marked them to be chosen by the power of the Keyblade.

[PuPu]

Suffice to say that Xemnas is not all-powerful. He does not possess universal power

KH is God. Xemnas absorbs God. Xemnas becomes God. If you're going to make claims like this, you might want to try to find things to back up your claims.


(not even worth mentioning the fact he didn't absorb a complete KH),Which isn't that different from Kefka supposedly absorbing "All Magic" except for the few Espers that the party controlled. The thing is, there's still the scale difference.


Within this KHverse, actually "defeating" darkness requires one to be wielding a Keyblade...no it doesn't. Defeating Heartless requires Keyblades, but it doesn't mean that other dark beings such as Jafar and Ursula can't be defeated as well. I don't even know what you mean by "defeating darkness" anyways, since it's not like you're "defeating water" by defeating Demyx.


a weapon which only four characters possess (if you include Kairi), TAV
SRK
Mickey
Master Xehanort
Master Eraqus
Vanitas
Xion
Roxas

That's a lot more than four, dude.


this not representing the perpetual strength of the original KH characters (or lack thereof in FF characters represented therein) but instead denoting the power within their hearts which marked them to be chosen by the power of the Keyblade.Power and strength come in many different forms, dude.

I'm not implying that Sora having the ability to defeat Heartless while the FF characters couldn't means that he's more powerful than them. Because he still beat other powerful enemies in the game which didn't require the Keyblade to beat. (Maleficent & friends, Organization XIII, etc.)

At this point, the only thing that you're saying is "Well KH power is invalid because it's different from the form of power in FF" yet you still can't prove why you think it's invalid.

And even if what you said IS true, it doesn't matter at all. Sora is still has more power than any FF character, since he beat an enemy more powerful than any enemies that the FF characters have faced in their respective universes. You can argue that Xemnas didn't truly have universal power all you want, because even if it were true, he still has more power than any FF villain + FF power source due to scale. It honestly doesn't matter where Sora's power came from, the fact is: it's still his own power.

Also, you act like "power of the heart" is the only power that exists in the KHverse.

[Mercen-X]

KH is God. Xemnas absorbs God. Xemnas becomes God. If you're going to make claims like this, you might want to try to find things to back up your claims.You're the only one making this claim.


...no it doesn't. Defeating Heartless requires Keyblades, but it doesn't mean that other dark beings such as Jafar and Ursula can't be defeated as well. I don't even know what you mean by "defeating darkness" anyways, since it's not like you're "defeating water" by defeating Demyx.Demyx wields water, but every Heartless and Nobody and, yes, the Disney Villains became the Disney equivolent of HEARTLESS, were COMPOSED of the darkness which Sora defeated via use of the Keyblade.


TAV, SRK, Mickey, Master Xehanort, Master Eraqus, Vanitas, Xion, Roxas

That's a lot more than four, dude.Totally out of continuity, dude.
TAV, the orig Xehanort, Era, and Van don't even exist anymore by the time Sora begins his quest. Van and Xion aren't actually real but an emanation and reflection of Ventus and Sora respectively (the latter doesn't exist before or during Sora's quest or by the time Sora wakes in KH2). Xehanort has since lost his ability to wield the Keyblade after assuming possession of Terra's body and is only able to wield one temporarily upon possessing Riku. Roxas may qualify as a fifth wielder but he only exists while Sora is asleep, therefore at such time only three known wielders exist (apart from Xion); those being Roxas, Riku, and Mickey. BTW: If Roxas qualifies as a Keyblade Wielder then so does Terra's Armor, which doesn't exist beyond one purpose.


He still beat other powerful enemies in the game which didn't require the Keyblade to beat. (Maleficent & friends, Organization XIII, etc.)

At this point, the only thing that you're saying is "Well KH power is invalid because it's different from the form of power in FF" yet you still can't prove why you think it's invalid.

And even if what you said IS true, it doesn't matter at all. Sora still has more power than any FF character, since he beat an enemy more powerful than any enemies that the FF characters have faced in their respective universes. You can argue that Xemnas didn't truly have universal power all you want, because even if it were true, he still has more power than any FF villain + FF power source due to scale. It honestly doesn't matter where Sora's power came from, the fact is: it's still his own power.

Also, you act like "power of the heart" is the only power that exists in the KHverse.The Keyblade was indeed pivotal to the defeat of the OXIII, and Maleficent and the other villains weren't defeated until they were overtaken by darkness and became Heartless.

I'm not saying the "power is invalid", I'm saying the power itself is stronger in the KH universe than what you'd find in an FF universe. If something took the Keyblade from Sora he'd be no stronger than the average FF character.

You're really very funny. I also find it curious that you would be so defensive about a statement declaring Sora to be no stronger than an FF character. I don't mean to imply he's weaker or who would win in a fight. I'm just saying that when Sora and any of these other characters are stripped of the assets they would usually equip, Sora would be no stronger.

The game is called Kingdom Hearts, the power source the villains are after is called Kingdom Hearts, Sora's strength is defined by the strength of his heart. Point being, this is a recurring Disney theme. The strong-hearted shall prevail always.

[PuPu]

You're the only one making this claim.

But my claim isn't that far-fetched. If you absorb God, you get supreme power and thus become God.


but every Heartless and Nobody and, yes, the Disney Villains became the Disney equivolent of HEARTLESSThe bolded item is not made of darkness. If you remember, Xemnas said that Nobodies were shunned by darkness.

Disney Villains aren't Heartless, so I have no idea what you mean by that. They're complete beings who use the powers of darkness.



were COMPOSED of the darkness which Sora defeated via use of the Keyblade.That doesn't mean that it was the Keyblade which defeated them, or their darkness.

Jafar was defeated by being trapped in his lamp.
Ursula was defeated by being stabbed with Triton's Fork.
Hades was defeated by being thrown into the Underworld's depths.
etc.



Totally out of continuity, dude.It was meant to show that people with a strong heart, aka people who are powerful in the KHverse, can wield a Keyblade.


The Keyblade was indeed pivotal to the defeat of the OXIII, ...the Keyblade wasn't necessary at all to defeat Organization XIII.

-Axel destroying Vexen with his fire attack.
-Riku destroying Lexaeus with Soul Eater.
-Riku Replica destroying Zexion by choking him with darkness.

If instead, you're arguing that the Keyblade is what gave Sora his power, still waiting for that proof.


and Maleficent and the other villains weren't defeated until they were overtaken by darkness and became Heartless....wat. They were never in Heartless form when Sora defeated them and they never became Heartless either.


I'm not saying the "power is invalid", I'm saying the power itself is stronger in the KH universe than what you'd find in an FF universe. Not seeing how this even makes sense.


If something took the Keyblade from Sora he'd be no stronger than the average FF character.Doubtful, because there's still no proof that it's the Keyblade that's giving Sora all of his superhuman abilities.


You're really very funny.
Irony. Was thinking the same thing about you.



I also find it curious that you would be so defensive about a statement declaring Sora to be no stronger than an FF character.Pointing out why you're wrong = defensive?


I'm just saying that when Sora and any of these other characters are stripped of the assets they would usually equip, Sora would be no stronger....which you can't really prove at all, and have yet to do so.


The game is called Kingdom Hearts, the power source the villains are after is called Kingdom Hearts, Sora's strength is defined by the strength of his heart. Point being, this is a recurring Disney theme. The strong-hearted shall prevail always. Power exists in many different forms, even in KH. After all, most of Organization XIII had no hearts, but they were still very powerful beings.

[Mercen-X]

But my claim isn't that far-fetched. If you absorb God, you get supreme power and thus become God.

KH is God.
You're the only one making this claim.


but every Heartless and Nobody and, yes, the Disney Villains became the Disney equivolent of HEARTLESSThe bolded item is not made of darkness. If you remember, Xemnas said that Nobodies were shunned by darkness.
Disney Villains aren't Heartless, so I have no idea what you mean by that. They're complete beings who use the powers of darkness.Yeah, I'll go ahead and believe the manipulative Xemnas. W/e



were COMPOSED of the darkness which Sora defeated via use of the Keyblade.That doesn't mean that it was the Keyblade which defeated them, or their darkness.
Jafar was defeated by being trapped in his lamp.
Ursula was defeated by being stabbed with Triton's Fork.
Hades was defeated by being thrown into the Underworld's depths.
etc.None of which are examples of how each were truly defeated or even "defeated by Sora."


aka people who are powerful in the KHverse, can wield a Keyblade.Mmhm. Strange how Vanitas (and at one point, Ansem-possessed Riku) is the only one who can wield a Keyblade. Obviously, Xemnas' lack of a complete being makes him less powerful even while absorbed of some of Kingdom Hearts. Otherwise, he should have been fighting Sora with another keyblade.

...the Keyblade wasn't necessary at all to defeat Organization XIII.
-Axel destroying Vexen with his fire attack.
-Riku destroying Lexaeus with Soul Eater.
-Riku Replica destroying Zexion by choking him with darkness.
If instead, you're arguing that the Keyblade is what gave Sora his power, still waiting for that proof. None of those are examples of Sora defeating a powerful enemy without his Keyblade.

They were never in Heartless form when Sora defeated them and they never became Heartless either.If we're to believe Xemnas, we might as well believe: Maleficent stated it herself the Heartless consume those who steep themselves in darkness which is exactly what each villain did. Maleficent becoming a dragon, Jafar - a genie, and Ursula - a giant, are all Kingdom Heart's equivolent of them becoming Heartless. The only Disney enemies Sora could legitimately claim defeat over are Hook and Clayton... and Czernobog.



I'm not saying the "power is invalid", I'm saying the power itself is stronger in the KH universe than what you'd find in an FF universe. Not seeing how this even makes sense.Disney theme. Disney character's "strength of heart" will always outmatch available resources in other games such as VII's materia.



If something took the Keyblade from Sora he'd be no stronger than the average FF character.Doubtful, because there's still no proof that it's the Keyblade that's giving Sora all of his superhuman abilities.Sora is a kid. Having a strong heart is not the same as having superhuman abilities. He certainly didn't have these abilities before obtaining the Keyblade.

Power exists in many different forms, even in KH. After all, most of Organization XIII had no hearts, but they were still very powerful beings.Case in point. Without hearts, Organization XIII were incapable of defeating Sora. Even having absorbed some of Kingdom Hearts, Xemnas is not all-powerful while still missing his own heart.

[PuPu]

...KH is God, and denying that is denying truth. The ultimate power source in the KHverse. Similar to the statues of FF6, but to a larger extent. Kinda like how Kefka becomes God Kefka after absorbing the statues.


Yeah, I'll go ahead and believe the manipulative Xemnas. W/e...but he's right. You can't just make up fanfiction like "Nobodies are made of darkness", or "Every enemy with dark powers is automatically a Heartless", or "Only the Keyblade can destroy people with dark powers" just because you refuse to believe what the game tells you.



None of which are examples of how each were truly defeated or even "defeated by Sora."...you have an odd definition of "defeated" because none of those enemies would have been beaten (regardless of what it was that finished them) if not for Sora.


Strange how Vanitas (and at one point, Ansem-possessed Riku) is the only one who can wield a Keyblade....what the hell are you talking about?


Obviously, Xemnas' lack of a complete being makes him less powerful even while absorbed of some of Kingdom Hearts.No, it doesn't. As said by Nomura, he's the strongest person in the KH games.


Otherwise, he should have been fighting Sora with another keyblade.But he doesn't have a heart, so he can't use a Keyblade. Yet he is still the most powerful being in the KH games.


None of those are examples of Sora defeating a powerful enemy without his Keyblade.I misunderstood what you meant then, because I thought you were trying to assert that "the Keyblade is necessary to defeat the Org and other beings of darkness." (which is still incorrect)

Still, you can't really use this argument as a case for why Sora's power depends on the Keyblade, because by this same logic, I can make the assertion that Cloud and Squall get their power from their weapons as well, since they are never seen defeating a powerful enemy without them.



Maleficent stated it herself the Heartless consume those who steep themselves in darkness which is exactly what each villain did.Yeah, Riku steeped himself in darkness but never became a Heartless either. She isn't wrong, but it's just that it never happened to them. They never lost their hearts, and you've got nothing which proves that they did.



Maleficent becoming a dragon, Jafar - a genie, and Ursula - a giant, are all Kingdom Heart's equivolent of them becoming Heartless....no they aren't. That's called using darkness to make yourself more powerful. Riku Dark Mode and Anti-Form do similar things, yet they aren't turning themselves into Heartless. KH says you turn into a heartless when you lose control over the darkness, and it overpowers you and makes you lose your heart. Malef and all the other villains never lost their hearts, so they are simply complete beings that use darkness.

I also like how you took off the part where Malef said they turn into Heartless as a result of excessiveness of steeping into darkness.


The only Disney enemies Sora could legitimately claim defeat over are Hook and Clayton... and Czernobog....no, Sora can legitimately claim victory over every enemy he fought. See, your claim that every enemy Sora faced that uses darkness is a Heartless is pure, 100%, fanfiction.


Disney theme. Disney character's "strength of heart" will always outmatch available resources in other games such as VII's materia.>declarative statement that has no proof

You've got this odd tendency of making declaratory statements as if they were fact, yet you almost never give explanation or proof behind anything you say.


Sora is a kid. Having a strong heart is not the same as having superhuman abilities. He gained these superhuman abilities as a result of growth due to his experiences, like how all FF characters get stronger as a result of their experiences as well. In fact, he even got his abilities taken away from him at the start of CoM while he still had the Keyblade, but he still grew and became stronger.



He certainly didn't have these abilities before obtaining the Keyblade.Yeah, and he didn't have these abilities before he started wearing a silver crown necklace either. :eep:

The problem is, you still can't prove that the Keyblade was the cause of his abilities, and not the result of his growth along his journey.


Without hearts, Organization XIII were incapable of defeating Sora....no. They were beaten because Sora was just plain better than them. Several strong beings were beaten by an even stronger being. Plain and simple.

See, here's the problem with almost all of your statements, Mercen. You stick together two random facts into a single statement and can't prove that the first fact is the cause of the second fact. Like, at all. Here, I can do it as well:

"Cloud has spikey blond hair, which is why he was able to defeat all of his enemies in FF7."



Even having absorbed some of Kingdom Hearts, Xemnas is not all-powerful while still missing his own heart. No, Xemnas lost because Sora and Riku's teamwork > ALL.

Him not having a heart doesn't mean anything. He was still the most powerful being without it, and he became God when he absorbed KH. This is exactly what I meant before when I said that you pretend that the power of the heart is the only form of power in the KHverse.

EDIT:

Actually, this pretty much ends it right here.


In fact, he even got his abilities taken away from him at the start of CoM while he still had the Keyblade, but he still grew and became stronger.

Assuming that the Keyblade was the source of his power, like many are trying to say, then he should've still had his KH1 powers because the source (the Keyblade) was still there. But he didn't, meaning that it was not the Keyblade that was supplying him with powers.

[qwertysaur]

The only Disney villain to actually become a heartless is Scar. The keyblade is the most effective weapon against heartless as well as the only thing capable of releasing their captive hearts. Beings that are not heartless are not specifically weak to one, but that doesn't mean that hitting them with a blunt object wont do some damage.

In the manga adaption several Organization deaths were altered. Larxene dies because Sora, Donald and Goofy get her wet so when she uses her Lightning attacks she fries herself and that kills her. Xaldin dies after the fight with Sora when he escapes and a Vexen replica kills him. (Vexen makes several Replicas of himself during the CoM manga adaption, and for some reason one decides to kill Xaldin)

It is important to note that the only person Sora has killed on hs own is Luxord, every other major battle he has particpated in he has had some form of support. :p

(Also Kefka did not absorb the statues, only the magic that they were exchanging with each other as well as that of several espers. You fight the three statues before taking down Kefka himself :p)

[PuPu]

The only Disney villain to actually become a heartless is Scar.This is correct. He becomes Groundshaker.



Beings that are not heartless are not specifically weak to one, but that doesn't mean that hitting them with a blunt object wont do some damage.This is also correct. After all, Hercules never needed a Keyblade for him to defeat his enemies.



mangaNon-canon.


It is important to note that the only person Sora has killed on hs own is Luxord, every other major battle he has particpated in he has had some form of support....you don't need to kill somebody to defeat them in battle. If you change it to "defeated in battle" the list becomes much bigger, and includes Xemnas as well.


Also Kefka did not absorb the statues, only the magic that they were exchanging with each other as well as that of several espers. You fight the three statues before taking down Kefka himselfThis is just plain nitpicking, and hardly changes what I said. :\

[Crop]

Larxene dies because Sora, Donald and Goofy get her wet


:lol::lol:

[P4ine]

what did pupu get banned for?

[Mercen-X]

he's still be an incredibly skilled swordsman, able to slice through buildings and such.
We don't know that Sora can slice through buildings in any area other than the World That Never Was. As far as we can tell, they might not have actually been real (durable) buildings.

::: You know, I still can't seem to find it. Where the hell does Nomura mention that Xemnas is the strongest in the Kingdom Hearts universe? Is there a link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Links_(web_browser))?

[Forsaken Lover]

This is a sad, sad thread. Kh continues to be a blight on Final Fantasy.

Neo Exdeath: I am Neo Exdeath... All memory, existence, and dimensions...All that is shall be returned to nothing.

Neo Exdeath was going to erase universeS. Plural. So the mighty Mansex's universal powers really aren't that unfathomable.

And how about Ultimecia?

"Ultimecia, transformed to absorb all time and space. Absorbing all existence as we speak."

Why she's sucking in the entire universe into herself.

It should serve as a mark of how low KH is that I'm supporting Ultimecia over it.

So, no, Sora can't beat every FF character. I doubt he could beat even lesser villains like Sin.

[Sephiroth]

Now that the guy who doesn't understand that truth exists even if there is no proof because proof can only exist when something what needs to be proven exists before, is banned, we can use that thread without any problems again and discuss about how cool and powerful Sora is, but hopefully with facts and no wannabe-arguments like those I have read from some guy I never want to talk to again.

First of all - Sora is very, very powerful. He gets stronger and stronger during the story and that's fact. It is simply because his heart becomes stronger. Stronger by his experience and by his friends. Of course not only his heart collects experience, but that's the real source of power in the universe of Kingdom Hearts.

But Sora has the problem that he can only use that potential of himself when he has a Keyblade, a weapon which is proof enough, that his heart is a strong one. And no character in Final Fantasy and also no non-Keyblade character in Kingdom Hearts has that problem. They all have enough other abilities to fight, like psychic abilities, magic or whatever and Sora is, no matter how strong he gets in stats, no all-powerful magician in the storyline. Donald is definitely stronger in terms of magic than Sora since Donald is a wizard and Sora focusses on swordsman-skills.

Then:

No matter what people think, not only Scar becomes a Heartless. Maleficent's Dragon form is not only a normal form she transforms into like she does outside of the Castle of Slumber, it is also her Heartless form. When Ansem's Heart's Legacy - the Keyblade which is made of the heart of Belle, Jasmin, Cinderella, Snow White, Alice and the Sleeping Beauty - opens your heart it releases and strengthens the darkness within to let it control you and you become a heartless. And even though Jafar, Ursula, et cetera didn't become traditional heartless they are also heartless-like.

About Kingdom Hearts:

Kingdom Hearts is the source of all hearts in the Kingdom Hearts universe. But comparing it to "God" "who" people believe to be the omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent creator of everything is just wrong. Kingdom Hearts is really thought to be a omnipresent power which is incredible but just to say it is "God" in Kingdom Hearts is a joke. Especially that "Absorb God and you become God" math experiment. Not to mention that Xemnas' Kingdom Hearts was artificial and damaged by Ansem the Wise. And there is nothing more to say about that.

Xemnas is the most powerful Kingdom Hearts character. And the story proves that Sora alone is not able to defeat him. So the question of Sora being the most powerful Kingdom Hearts character is answered with the first post of the thread already. And I highly, I highly doubt that Sora would even stand a chance against the reborn version of Xehanort. That's the final battle of this Kingdom Hearts Saga and writing a main villain who can be defeated by the main character only is not going to happen. That's not Final Fantasy-like. And Kingdom Hearts is the child of Final Fantasy.

No what about Sora and the characters he is compared to?

Lord Garland/Chaos:

Garland creates a time loop and uses the power of the orbs to gain the power of Chaos, and Dissidia even shows that it is the natural power of Chaos, a power which is a old and great as the void, so he is not only a monster called "Chaos", even though that was definitely the meaning 25 years ago.

Emperor Mateus Paramecia :

Mateus reigns an empire, teaches the meaning of fear is manipulative and rules the afterlife as Lucifer himself.

Zande:

Zande freezes time and summons a Dark Cloud which should reset everything

Zemus:

Zemus controls minds even though he is sealed away and can return by nothing but hatred once he is dead.

Lord X-Death:

Is a fusion of evil souls possessing a tree who is almost immortal so he had to be sealed away and even within his seal he was able to command his servants to destroy the crystals. He is an incredibly strong Black Mage who can create illusions, so he let the Otherworld crystals look like monsters so that Bartz and the others destroy them and open the Rift. He can transform into a part of a tree or a tree himself and even though his will was not strong enough he controlled the power of the void for some time. And the his true power, the power of Neo X-Death, so the fusion of the evil souls which were sealed in the forest and which are released and controlled by the void in the end is incredible.

Commander Kefka Palazzo:

Is extremely manipulative and so insane you never know what his next step is. Even though he plans to restore the statues and absorbs some Esper's power before he absorbed their power as a spontaneous action when Celes hurt him with a sword. Then he devastates the world, builds a giant tower of trash and makes the land infertile with his Light of Judgment.

Sephiroth:

Has a stronger will than everyone else and an indestructable one. He can control JENOVA cells and also use them to regenerate and reunite. He can absorb life energy, will power and knowledge, everything which is the source of the true power in Final Fantasy VII and since he resists the lifestream he became so strong that he doesn't need Materia for magic if the knowledge of how to use it is within the lifestream. He can create illusions which look and feell as if they were real and since he has the strongest and most powerful will of all he can easily fool everyone. He has the ability to shapeshift, he has psychic abilities like levitating/flying, telekineses and telepathy and reading minds and memories, he can teleport, he can go through matter, et cetera. He is the strongest wizard, no wonder with the strongest will which can get stronger limitless and he is the strongest swordsman and the one one who can use Masamune like he does and not only with the Iai-Style since it is a very long and heavy Nodachi. And he can destroy the solar system, no matter what people think. Stats = Nothing, Scene: Demonstration of Story Abilities.

AND: Before Advent Children he even reassured not to fade by linking his existence with Cloud's memories.

Ultimecia:

She can control the power of other Ultimecia's one they die in another time period to control other witches in another time period and so take a look at that time period with her conciousness. She is an incredibly powerful Time Mage. She can read minds and make them real.

Baron Kuja "King":

He is a Weapon Seller who manipulates a queen, darkens her heart and finally absorbs it to get into Trance mode. He destroy a planet. Then he "just" wants to destroy the Existence Crystal. But, no, no way he is powerful. He is just a Super Saiyan 4.

Maester Seymour Guado:

Very manipulative and a genius in terms of strategies. Physically pushes back a I don't know how many tons-heavy [Sin] Spawn. Wants to destroy all lifeforms to release them and he even does destroy many of them. And most of it as an Unsent One.

Emperor Vayne Cardias Solidor:

Like Seymour very manipulative and a genius in terms of strategies. He also wants to make things easier by destroying them and teams with Venat to destroy the Undying Ones. He has a super airship, the Bahamut and uses manufacted Nethicite. And then he fuses with Venat to become an Undying One himself who is able to destroy a whole airship just with a beam of his Aura.

Galenth Dysley:

Manipulates the heroes and forces them to go through a whole Final Fantasy. Strong enough to kill them all. Nothing more to say.

Like the true Sephiroth says to Sora:

"I admit you're very skilled."

And that's about it. No more and no less. Only the dirt Sephiroth wipes off of his leather coat once he is done with Sora.

[Tigmafuzz]

Ultimate analysis and comparison of all Final Fantasy games and Kingdom Hearts that practically nobody can disagree with: /thread.

Baron Kuja "King":
He is a Weapon Seller who manipulates a queen, darkens her heart and finally absorbs it to get into Trance mode. He destroy a planet. Then he "just" wants to destroy the Existence Crystal. But, no, no way he is powerful. He is just a Super Saiyan 4.

Lol.

[Jiro]

While that mammoth post is appreciated, this thread is quite old and, like you mentioned, the guy you're trying to disprove is banned. If you want to make a new thread, go right ahead, otherwise this one is having a nap.