Apparently, Noctis is gay (according to Nomura)

[Elpizo]

Well, if we can trust ff-xiii.net, this article:

Nomura Kotaku Interview: 'Noctis is Gay' - Final Fantasy XIII: News, Trailers & Screens ~ Final Fantasy-XIII.net (http://finalfantasy-xiii.net/2010/03/31/nomura-kotaku-interview-noctis-is-gay.html)

states Noctis is gay.

Interest in the game: -200% (And before you scream homophobe, people can be gay as much as they want, but that doesn't mean I have to like it in the games I play.)

[Flying Mullet]

Homophobe!

[Elpizo]

So be it. I don't wanna see kissing guys in the games I play.

[qwertysaur]

This game will break records now, the yaoi fangirls rejoice, and the world shudders

[G13]

I'm not a homophobe but that does put a damper on some things. I don't care if Noctis is gay, I just don't want to see anything that will give people the wrong idea as to why I'm playing it.

This makes sense though. I was wondering why he looked so much like Adam Lambert.

[ANGRYWOLF]

I do worry that conservatives here in the US might complain about it and try to harm the game/prevent it from being released.:eek:

shrugs..we'll see how things come out.:|

[Elpizo]

I actually laugh at those fans who were outrageous about the changes of XIII and screamed how Versus XIII was going to be far better because it's more traditional. Oh, right, Versus has a worldmap and airships, that automatically makes it a Final Fantasy.

Because, like or dislike aside, a gay main character is far from traditional. ;)

[Hot Shot]

Well I'm comfortable enough with my sexuality to play it even if he is gay. Besides, it might be interesting to see an unrequited love between the two main characters.

I personally think that Nomura may or may not have intended him to be gay, but to be honest, I don't think SE is brave enough to push the boundaries that far. At least not yet.

And you all say you are not Homophobes, but most of you do seem it.

[Crowseye]

This is a lame April Fools joke posted early.

Anyway,

homsexual character != scenes depciting homosexual sex :roll2

[G13]

And you all say you are not Homophobes, but most of you do seem it.

How so? No one's said that they weren't going to play it just 'cause he's gay. Is it homophobic that we'd rather not see guys kissing?

[finaloblivion]

yea...this is not real.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

Quick searches and I couldn't find the original Kotaku article that they are apparently citing. So something is telling me this is a joke (since it was from Kotaku Australia meaning it is already April 1st there).

Furthermore, it'd be highly surprising if a Japanese video game company would make the lead male gay. Highly surprising. Japan is not the most forward country when it comes to gay rights. Most employers can still fire you for being gay, unless you live in the Tokyo District and perhaps a few other places. So yeah, it seems unlike. Also, considering how homosexual characters tend to be treated, there won't be anything explicit anyways. You'd be lucky if he had a boyfriend, let alone if they held hands or said "I love you".



Interest in the game: -200% (And before you scream homophobe, people can be gay as much as they want, but that doesn't mean I have to like it in the games I play.)

I live in a heteronormative society where I am constantly exposed to heterosexuality, let alone in most media sources. Where I am constantly assumed to be straight or expected to fulfil the role of a straight man. Where gender binaries can be so forcibly constricted that anything outside of it considered deviant, or wrong. In some parts of the world, I could be arrested or killed without second thought. I could go on and on, but I think I've made my point. My point is: so what if you have to deal with one gay character in a video game? Homosexuals live everyday in face of heterosexuality because it is the majority and default. We don't always like it, but we have to live with it lest be hermits.

Also, the previous paragraph was intentionally hyperbolic, a bit facetious and a bit of playing devil's advocate. In other words, I wasn't being overly serious about what I was saying. :p

That said, I still think this is an April Fool's joke.

[Elpizo]

If that character is the main character, it gets difficult for me. Accepting it as a fact doesn't mean I have to like it in a game I play, a movie I see or something like that. It's good for people who like it, people who don't will stay away. There's nothing wrong with saying this.

And if this is april's fools, then all the better. You know, now that I think of it, it probably is, what with the X-files references.

But even if it's a joke, it's still good to open this can of worms. Because let us face it, if it is or isn't real, the reactions here still are. And that's good for debate.

[Hot Shot]

And you all say you are not Homophobes, but most of you do seem it.

How so? No one's said that they weren't going to play it just 'cause he's gay. Is it homophobic that we'd rather not see guys kissing?
Well some of people showed disgust at the idea and FYI, the guy who started this post did. So don't act like I'm making stuff.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

It would be an interesting turn of events to be honest. It might also open up some people's eyes to the realities of being gay even if the game wouldn't actually be overly explicit about it. It'd give a straight guys a chance to see what it is like being gay and constantly having to play as straight characters. It'd be a role-reversal to say the least, though I bet with would be met with vehement resistance, especially from the religious right in the USA. :/

[VeloZer0]

It wouldn't really be a big deal at all now that they are always adding the ability to skip cutsceens. I was pleased that I could skip the sappy scenes with Snow and Serah, so I imagine I would just do the same.

I'm also going with 100% BS on this one.


though I bet with would be met with vehement resistance, especially from the religious right in the USA. :/
We all know that if you put the revelation far enough into the game none of them will ever get there :) Just think of the uproar that would be heard if they realized how corrupt churches are generally portrayed in JRPGs.

[Bastian]

Damn, I was excited that this could be true at first. I mean, there was some lesbionics going on in FF:CC:EoT . . . but . . . nope, lame April Fool's Joke.

And to those who say "I don't wanna see two guys making out in my videogames" . . . well, just because he's gay doesn't mean you WOULD have to see it. And even if you did, would it kill you? Or are you really that insecure about your supposed heterosexuality? I'm bombarded on a daily basis with girls kissing guys, which I'd rather not see, but it's EVERYWHERE. One little kiss between two guys isn't going to destroy you to see.

[Elpizo]

And you all say you are not Homophobes, but most of you do seem it.

How so? No one's said that they weren't going to play it just 'cause he's gay. Is it homophobic that we'd rather not see guys kissing?
Well some of people showed disgust at the idea and FYI, the guy who started this post did. So don't act like I'm making stuff.
So now it's homophobe to not play a game with a gay main character in it? I have no interest in a game like that, no, because it's not up to my preferences, has nothing to do with my view on things. It's not disgust, it's disinterest. There's a difference. Same as I won't play Resonance of Fate because it's all about guns.

[Crowseye]

I don't think there is anything wrong with choosing to not immerse oneself in something one knows he or she would not enjoy. I like porn, but I don't watch male-on-male porn, because I do not find it appealing visually or emotionally.

Homophobia comes in when you have a fear, even a subconscious one, that subjecting oneself to (depictions of) homosexuality might somehow turn one gay. Extreme homophobes would take that to its logical extreme and say that it should be banned for the "good of society" or somesuch.

Anyway, just as not playing a game with a homosexual character doesn't make you a homophobe, playing a game with a homosexual character doesn't make you not a homophobe. It's basically indicative of nothing in and of itself.

[Hot Shot]

You lot are missing what I said, Gaurdian XIII said nobody will not play it cos of the the gay characters and I just pointed out you wouldn't play it Elpizo. Read more carefully next time.

[G13]

And you all say you are not Homophobes, but most of you do seem it.

How so? No one's said that they weren't going to play it just 'cause he's gay. Is it homophobic that we'd rather not see guys kissing?
Well some of people showed disgust at the idea and FYI, the guy who started this post did. So don't act like I'm making stuff.

Making stuff up? You didn't really clarify why you said it. And Elpizo is right, he never said it digusted him he just showed disinterest. You seem to be getting more out of this than what we said.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

So now it's homophobe to not play a game with a gay main character in it? I have no interest in a game like that, no, because it's not up to my preferences, has nothing to do with my view on things. It's not disgust, it's disinterest. There's a difference. Same as I won't play Resonance of Fate because it's all about guns.

There's a difference between a game having a homosexual character, whether it is the lead or not, and being about homosexuality. I think the issue arises because your interest in a game changed based on the character's sexuality and not the content. Whereas losing interest in a game that was about homosexuality would make sense in the case of a heterosexual male, to lose interest just because a character is gay tends to be criticized more. :/

An example, it would be more acceptable for you not to like gay fiction than if you simply did not like Harry Potter because you found out Dumbledore is gay. The latter would spark more criticism than the former.


I don't think there is anything wrong with choosing to not immerse oneself in something one knows he or she would not enjoy. I like porn, but I don't watch male-on-male porn, because I do not find it appealing visually or emotionally.

Homophobia comes in when you have a fear, even a subconscious one, that subjecting oneself to (depictions of) homosexuality might somehow turn one gay. Extreme homophobes would take that to its logical extreme and say that it should be banned for the "good of society" or somesuch.

Anyway, just as not playing a game with a homosexual character doesn't make you a homophobe, playing a game with a homosexual character doesn't make you not a homophobe. It's basically indicative of nothing in and of itself.

How would you not enjoy it if the lead is gay? I play plenty of games with straight leads and I still enjoy the games. The character's sexuality has nothing to do with it. Truthfully, if there are explicit sexual scenes then yes, I would get uncomfortable. However, to simply say you would not enjoy a game simply because of the sexual orientation of a character is quite ludicrous, especially if it only plays a minor or incidental role. Otherwise, most gay gamers would, by your logic, not enjoy most video games with heterosexual males as a lead.

Also, to return to what I said early about the difference between having a gay character and a game being about homosexuality. Gay porn is about the gay content, regardless of the orientation of the actors. So make the comparison between a game has a gay character and a gay pornography is really not a valid point.

Also, it would be highly unlikely that a homophobe would play a game with a gay character. They'd likely try to ban it without ever trying to play it.

[Moon Rabbits]

Hahahahaha I love all the "I'm not a homophobe but this is gross and I won't play it wah wah wah!"

Oh man. TSoL has pretty much summed up my opinions on the whole matter. DEAL WID IT. To choose not to play a game because the lead is gay is fucking ridic. That speaks nothing about content, gameplay, storyline (you will argue that it does because oh my god the lead is gay - but, what if they simply substitute the male love interest with a female one? same story).

If I didn't play games with heterosexual leads because I'm gay, I would never, ever play videogames again.

Keep telling yourself you're not a homophobe, but your justifications belie your "I am not a homophobe" spewage.

BRB, I'm going to not play FFXIII because the main character is a female (I'm a guy oh no!) and the main love story is about Snow and Serah (ewwwwwww heterosexuality. I don't want to play that!).

[VeloZer0]

If a game developer were to announce that a character were gay this far ahead of release it leads on to assume that it is somehow significant. So though it doesn't necessarily mean that there would be significant subject material pertaining to homosexuality it is hard to figure why the main characters sexual orientation would be news worthy if it there wasn't.


and the main love story is about Snow and Serah (ewwwwwww heterosexuality. I don't want to play that!).
Lol, when I found out that a love story would be central in FFXIII it seriously dampened my interest in the game.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

There's a lot of possible reasons: controversy to boost sales, avoiding accusations of being "lied to" because they never said the character was gay, the fact that it is significant because there hasn't really been a gay male lead in a video game, it is coming from Japan (refer to earlier posts about Japanese and homosexuality) and probably more that I can't think of.

[Rad Bromance]

I don't trust that article because the trailers that have been released strongly suggest the contrary.

And furthermore, you talk as if gay protagonists in FF games is something new.

[Hot Shot]

I don't trust that article because the trailers that have been released strongly suggest the contrary.

And furthermore, you talk as if gay protagonists in FF games is something new.
Who's that?

[Rad Bromance]

Also, where does the article say that men will be kissing other men in the game? A gay character doesn't mean there's automatically going to be gay kissing.

Every straight protagonists male isn't shown kissing a woman in his game, is he?

[RedPouch]

I don't think there is anything wrong with choosing to not immerse oneself in something one knows he or she would not enjoy. I like porn, but I don't watch male-on-male porn, because I do not find it appealing visually or emotionally.
Nice, equating porn/adult sexual content to a character that has a possibility [however doubtful] of being gay when on-screen romance would most likely be extremely limited if not non-existent. I can see how this is relevant 100% good analogy.


Interest in the game: -200% (And before you scream homophobe, people can be gay as much as they want, but that doesn't mean I have to like it in the games I play.)

So now it's homophobe to not play a game with a gay main character in it? I have no interest in a game like that, no, because it's not up to my preferences, has nothing to do with my view on things. It's not disgust, it's disinterest. There's a difference. Same as I won't play Resonance of Fate because it's all about guns.
Don't kid yourself, it's homophobia. It doesn't matter if it's an April Fool's joke or not. If you're so offended/terrified by such petty and insignificant things like a character happening to be gay, then you can't claim you're not homophobic.

You basically implied that you would've had interested in playing the game before [given your eagerness of stating that -200% bit], yet you're willing to drop the entire game which might actually be good, over this one single insignificant fact of the main character possibly being gay. There likely wouldn't even be any on-screen romance even if this was true, only implied stuff, though this doesn't really seem to have any relevance to you. You're free to have your opinion of course, but that doesn't prevent me from saying "you need to grow up and get the smurf over it, you squeamish little princess". I play video games ALL THE TIME with straight male leads, and occasionally female leads, and it's never something I've complained about [for the record I'm gay, so you understand the significance in me pointing something like that out]. I see MOVIES all the time with straight romance in it - constantly. It doesn't bother me in the slightest. It's minor insignificant stuff that isn't really important and has little impact on the game itself. I think this is just petty/morbid fear of something showing its ugly head and being enough to divert you from something that could potentially be a very enjoyable game.

That said, I'm with everyone that this might be a joke. However, if it were true, that'd be kinda cool.


Also, where does the article say that men will be kissing other men in the game? A gay character doesn't mean there's automatically going to be gay kissing.

Every straight protagonists male isn't shown kissing a woman in his game, is he?
That's true. And don't kid yourself, he's terrified of the notion and is willing to avoid the game entirely based on that one single [and unconfirmed] fact. That is homophobia.


Hahahahaha I love all the "I'm not a homophobe but this is gross and I won't play it wah wah wah!"

Oh man. TSoL has pretty much summed up my opinions on the whole matter. DEAL WID IT. To choose not to play a game because the lead is gay is smurfing ridic. That speaks nothing about content, gameplay, storyline (you will argue that it does because oh my god the lead is gay - but, what if they simply substitute the male love interest with a female one? same story).

If I didn't play games with heterosexual leads because I'm gay, I would never, ever play videogames again.

Keep telling yourself you're not a homophobe, but your justifications belie your "I am not a homophobe" spewage.

BRB, I'm going to not play FFXIII because the main character is a female (I'm a guy oh no!) and the main love story is about Snow and Serah (ewwwwwww heterosexuality. I don't want to play that!).
Hey looks like we finally agree on something XD *high fives*

[Dignified Pauper]

This thread is silly.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

This thread is silly.

Boys are silly in general. :/

[Moon Rabbits]

Also, where does the article say that men will be kissing other men in the game? A gay character doesn't mean there's automatically going to be gay kissing.

Every straight protagonists male isn't shown kissing a woman in his game, is he?

Tr00f. I think Tidus and Yuna kiss like, what, once? This is not GTA ppplzzzzzz.



Hey looks like we finally agree on something XD *high fives*

I think we've set an apocalypse in motion D:

[qwertysaur]

I don't trust that article because the trailers that have been released strongly suggest the contrary.

And furthermore, you talk as if gay protagonists in FF games is something new.
The fanfiction flood will still come

[Crowseye]

Also, to return to what I said early about the difference between having a gay character and a game being about homosexuality. Gay porn is about the gay content, regardless of the orientation of the actors. So make the comparison between a game has a gay character and a gay pornography is really not a valid point.

Agreed. It was a poor example given the discussion. My point was about subjecting oneself to something one knows he or she doesn't enjoy. Certainly a game having a gay character does not mean it is about the gay content as you say. However, you imply that the mere presence of something that one knows negatively affects ones enjoyment is not a valid reason not to partake of it. People don't partake in entertainment containing persons or ideas they don't enjoy all the time, even when said entertainment is not about those persons or ideas. (see further down)


Also, it would be highly unlikely that a homophobe would play a game with a gay character. They'd likely try to ban it without ever trying to play it.

(1) I made no claim as to whether a homophobe would play the game or not. I merely said that playing a game with a homosexual character does not make you not a homophobe.

If somebody claims "I played vXIII even though it had a gay character, so I'm not a homophobe," I would consider it roughly equivalent to the statement "I watch NBA basketball, so I'm not a racist." IOW it's a vacuous claim that proves nothing, regardless of how much FF fans want to believe that games are substitutes for real life.

(2) I maintain that not everybody who is homophobic identifies themselves as a homophobe, or realizes that they are one. That is, in part the problem here. You seem to be implying that homophobes are monsters who crusade to rid the world of homosexuality. It's not that black and white. Just as racism can manifest in something as little as bringing one's purse up to communion in church when one would not otherwise because a black family is in the same pew, homophobia can be as subtle as scooting away from a guy with pink hair and pierced ears on the subway.


How would you not enjoy it if the lead is gay? I play plenty of games with straight leads and I still enjoy the games. The character's sexuality has nothing to do with it. Truthfully, if there are explicit sexual scenes then yes, I would get uncomfortable. However, to simply say you would not enjoy a game simply because of the sexual orientation of a character is quite ludicrous, especially if it only plays a minor or incidental role. Otherwise, most gay gamers would, by your logic, not enjoy most video games with heterosexual males as a lead.

I'm not sure why you felt the need to personally attack me. Let's review:

"...choosing to not immerse oneself in something one knows he or she would not enjoy."

"Oneself" and "he or she," not "myself" and "I." :roll2

I NEVER said that I -- personally -- would not play the game. In fact, I would never say that because I -- personally -- have no problem playing a gay character. I -- personally -- think it would be interesting to see a story with one functioning as the main character. And I -- personally -- would be content if vXIII went that route. I was defending the choice of those who said they don't think they would enjoy it if it had a homosexual character, which I happen to think is a valid reason to not to play a game with one.

You can substitute "2-year-old," "hick," "viking," "Leonardo di Caprio," and "raging feminist" for "homosexual" -- if it's presence inhibits your enjoyment of something meant to be entertaining, why would you choose to subject yourself to it?

Anyway, is homophobia logical? Personally, I don't think so -- phobias are (generally) not -- but that doesn't mean people who are homophobic don't feel what they do, and that they are not entitled to those feelings. I think, in the long run, trying to be understanding is a lot better than going around suggesting people who don't like homosexuals are stupid, worthless excuses for human beings.

[RedPouch]

I understand where homophobia stems from, but I'm also entitled to my hatred of it. Also, I fail to see how playing a game that just happens to have a gay male character lead [and probably won't have any on-screen romance, as I said] out of 92394823 video games that don't have gay males PERIOD, is considered "immersing yourself in homosexuality".


(1) I made no claim as to whether a homophobe would play the game or not. I merely said that playing a game with a homosexual character does not make you not a homophobe.
Yes, but I'd like to redirect and be more specific based on what you said. Let's flip that.

1) Choosing not to play a game with a homosexual character in it.

2) Choosing not to play a game because it has a homosexual character in it.

The former, I've actually done myself [Enchanted Arms, the battle system looked boring to me]. Elpizo has no problem stating that he's part of the latter, so there's really no dispute there. That is in essence, a form of homophobia. Here's a hypothetical scenario I jokingly cooked up while talking with The Summoner of Leviathan:


[09:36.09 PM] Khalin: lol
[09:36.13 PM] Khalin: claiming to not be homophobic
[09:36.38 PM] Khalin: so what, if an actual gay guy were in his vicinity - oh my! he'd bail out of there so fast
[09:36.41 PM] Khalin: smurfing speeding bullet
[09:36.47 PM] Khalin: oh but don't worry he's not homophobic
[09:36.51 PM] Khalin: he's just "disinterested"

In Elpizo's statement, the mere thought of a character being gay [yet again, even if this were true, there likely wouldn't be any on-screen romance] is enough to turn him away from a potentially good game "-200%" by his own words [later he attempted to soften this by saying "well I'm just 'disinterested'"]. God forbid if a gay guy were actually around him in person - that's even worse than seeing a gay video game character on-screen. Fly outta there man! It's okay, we know it's only because you're "disinterested". We also know that merely having a gay guy in your vicinity, or even worse, a friend that's a gay guy - is AUTOMATICALLY qualified as "immersing yourself in homosexuality". This is absolutely true 100% no exceptions.

Give me a Xanax.

[VeloZer0]

I'm not defending anyone here, but I would like to point out that if a characters sexual orientation is noteworthy then there is probably some sort of romantic plot involved at some level. Though not impossible it is highly improbable that they would inform us of something that doesn't even come up in the game.

Can you think how ridiculous it would be to announce a character that had not romantic interactions through the game (lets say Sabin) as homosexual?

[RedPouch]

Can you think how ridiculous it would be to announce a character that had not romantic interactions through the game (lets say Sabin) as homosexual?
Eagle from Street Fighter doesn't have any romance. It's a successful and well-respected series. I'm pretty sure however, that Elpizo either had no initial interest in Street Fighter, or has played it but will now never play it again because it has a character that isn't straight. To play Street Fighter would be "immersing yourself in homosexuality".

[Crowseye]

I sincerely apologize Kahlin, I improperly identified you as the initial responder...

Edited to gray out unwarranted commentary.


"immersing yourself in homosexuality".

Please stop putting words in my mouth. It's dishonest and horribly rude.

I never said "immersing yourself in homosexuality."

I said "immerse oneself in something one knows he or she would not enjoy." As far as my post was concerned, that something, in this case, is a "game with a homosexual character." To me, that is the same as, say, a "game with a female lead." As you pointed out before, having something in it is not the same as being about it. I agreed with you, and admitted my later porn example was poor because that is not what I was trying to suggest. Now you appear to be backtracking on your initial response in order to continue trying to fight with me, because you decided you don't like me...believing me to be a homophobe when I am actually far closer to your side than theirs. I merely don't agree with your hatred toward them. I find hatred despicable no matter who it is directed toward.


Yes, but there's a difference here. Let's be more specific, based on what you said.

1) Choosing not to play a game with a homosexual character in it.

2) Choosing not to play a game because it has a homosexual character in it.

Again, you are raging over nothing, taking things out of context and trying create an argument that doesn't exist because you believed me to be a homophobe and therefore felt the need to dispute everything I wrote.

I meant exactly what I said here, very literally:

"Anyway, just as not playing a game with a homosexual character doesn't make you a homophobe, playing a game with a homosexual character doesn't make you not a homophobe. It's basically indicative of nothing in and of itself."

It was a criticism of homophobes who were trying to "prove" that they were not ones because they would play vXIII (or implying that playing vXIII would prove thus, as I felt some people in this thread were doing). I'm arguing that their playing vXIII doesn't make them not homophobes.

You then implied that I was wrong because it was unlikely any homophobe would play vXIII. In my previous post I explained why I think you are wrong:

"(2) I maintain that not everybody who is homophobic identifies themselves as a homophobe, or realizes that they are one. That is, in part the problem here. You seem to be implying that homophobes are monsters who crusade to rid the world of homosexuality. It's not that black and white. Just as racism can manifest in something as little as bringing one's purse up to communion in church when one would not otherwise because a black family is in the same pew, homophobia can be as subtle as scooting away from a guy with pink hair and pierced ears on the subway."


In Elpizo's statement, the mere thought of a character being gay [yet again, even if this were true, there likely wouldn't be any on-screen romance] is enough to turn him away from a potentially good game "-200%" by his own words [later he attempted to soften this by saying "well I'm just 'disinterested'"].

I never said I didn't think Elpizo was a homophobe. I never mentioned him at all in fact.

And I NEVER said that not wanting to play a game with a homosexual character was not homophobic. I merely said that:

"I don't think there is anything wrong with choosing to not immerse oneself in something one knows he or she would not enjoy."

If the reason one would not enjoy it is ultimately because they are homophobic, I believe that is a valid reason, just as I think it would be valid to not want to play a game in which you only controlled, say, a female character. I don't think homophobia is logical, and I wish that they wouldn't be homophobic, but I do think that playing something you don't like is silly, even if your reason for not liking it is a poor one. I don't see any reason why a homophobe should be forced to play vXIII if Noctis were gay, not to mention forced to play to prove that they aren't homophobic.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

Also, to return to what I said early about the difference between having a gay character and a game being about homosexuality. Gay porn is about the gay content, regardless of the orientation of the actors. So make the comparison between a game has a gay character and a gay pornography is really not a valid point.

Agreed. It was a poor example given the discussion. My point was about subjecting oneself to something one knows he or she doesn't enjoy. Certainly a game having a gay character does not mean it is about the gay content as you say. However, you imply that the mere presence of something that one knows negatively affects ones enjoyment is not a valid reason not to partake of it. People don't partake in entertainment containing persons or ideas they don't enjoy all the time, even when said entertainment is not about those persons or ideas. (see further down)

My whole point is the fact that someone is gay, shouldn't take away from the entertainment--that their sexual orientation should be incidental not defining (I am well aware that this is not always the case in life either). While acknowledge that people will not watch "X show" because they don't like the main actor or that someone pro-life will not watch a pro-abortion documentary, etc...I feel that there is a difference between that and the fact that someone won't the Cosby Show because it's cast is mostly black, or Brothers & Sisters because one of the main characters is gay, or not reading Harry Potter because you found out Dumbledore was gay.

I don't like Sienfield because I don't find it funny and the character of George aggravates me. However, were I not to like Sienfield because Jerry Sienfield is Jewish, then that would be another story. That'd be considered racist, to a degree at least. Not playing knowing no more than the main character is gay shows a degree of homophobia, no matter how you spill it. Like you said, it is not so black and white and can be expressed in minor ways.




Also, it would be highly unlikely that a homophobe would play a game with a gay character. They'd likely try to ban it without ever trying to play it.

(1) I made no claim as to whether a homophobe would play the game or not. I merely said that playing a game with a homosexual character does not make you not a homophobe.

If somebody claims "I played vXIII even though it had a gay character, so I'm not a homophobe," I would consider it roughly equivalent to the statement "I watch NBA basketball, so I'm not a racist." IOW it's a vacuous claim that proves nothing, regardless of how much FF fans want to believe that games are substitutes for real life.

(2) I maintain that not everybody who is homophobic identifies themselves as a homophobe, or realizes that they are one. That is, in part the problem here. You seem to be implying that homophobes are monsters who crusade to rid the world of homosexuality. It's not that black and white. Just as racism can manifest in something as little as bringing one's purse up to communion in church when one would not otherwise because a black family is in the same pew, homophobia can be as subtle as scooting away from a guy with pink hair and pierced ears on the subway.


You claimed that not playing a game with a gay a character is not homophobic, just as playing a game with a gay character doesn't mean you are not a homophobe. I get that, I wasn't arguing that. I was merely pointing out the fact that by virtue of their homophobia, it is highly unlikely that a homophobe would be playing a game with a gay character.

I merely listed the banning of the game as an activity of theirs for at the time I had in my mind an image of the more vocal American Right-Wing Bible Belt criticizing such game and calling for it to be banned for the "safety of society" or whatever bull:bou::bou::bou::bou: they spew.

I've never said that homophobia doesn't come in a variety of expressions, I merely pointed the more obvious ones that come to mind.

That being said, to merely not play a game based on the solely in the knowledge that the main character is gay is homophobic. More in the vein of what you said with it being expressed in minor and not obvious veins but it is homophobic or of a homophobic sentiment.




How would you not enjoy it if the lead is gay? I play plenty of games with straight leads and I still enjoy the games. The character's sexuality has nothing to do with it. Truthfully, if there are explicit sexual scenes then yes, I would get uncomfortable. However, to simply say you would not enjoy a game simply because of the sexual orientation of a character is quite ludicrous, especially if it only plays a minor or incidental role. Otherwise, most gay gamers would, by your logic, not enjoy most video games with heterosexual males as a lead.

I'm not sure why you felt the need to personally attack me. Let's review:

"...choosing to not immerse oneself in something one knows he or she would not enjoy."

"Oneself" and "he or she," not "myself" and "I." :roll2

I NEVER said that I -- personally -- would not play the game. In fact, I would never say that because I -- personally -- have no problem playing a gay character. I -- personally -- think it would be interesting to see a story with one functioning as the main character. And I -- personally -- would be content if vXIII went that route. I was defending the choice of those who said they don't think they would enjoy it if it had a homosexual character, which I happen to think is a valid reason to not to play a game with one.

You can substitute "2-year-old," "hick," "viking," "Leonardo di Caprio," and "raging feminist" for "homosexual" -- if it's presence inhibits your enjoyment of something meant to be entertaining, why would you choose to subject yourself to it?

Sorry if you took it as a personal attack, though I did not mean it that way. I apologize. My bad.

However, what I said is still valid. Heterosexuals will not get sympathies from homosexuals because they are potentially being exposed to homosexual displays. We see heterosexuality displayed all the time, everywhere we go.

Also, I have to agree, yes they can choose not to play a game because the main character is homosexual. Just as I can choose not to play a game because the main character is heterosexual. I never said anything about infringing upon their rights. All I am saying is that it is ludicrous to do so (not play a game simply on the basis of a character's sexual orientation). Furthermore, it is a double standard. Heterosexuality is taken as a given, a default that no one would really think twice about. However, that is not the case as soon as the character is not heterosexual.



Anyway, is homophobia logical? Personally, I don't think so -- phobias are (generally) not -- but that doesn't mean people who are homophobic don't feel what they do, and that they are not entitled to those feelings. I think, in the long run, trying to be understanding is a lot better than going around suggesting people who don't like homosexuals are stupid, worthless excuses for human beings.

Phobias are fears or hatred of something, in more mild forms it appears as a dislike or discomfort of said object. Yes, they can come in various degrees. I'm mildly acrophobic, so heights make me uncomfortable and nervous.

Homophobia, as well, comes in many degrees and ways. Simply not playing a game solely because the main character is gay is homophobic. Not like those who say all gays should die, but homophobic nonetheless. Perhaps mildly homophobic would be an apt description. However, choosing not to play a game, for whatever reasons, that has a gay character is not homophobic in and of itself. There's a difference. A key difference.

Also, I know that was target at me, but I think that while homophobes are misinformed and ignorant (more in the Platonic sense than anything), I don't think they are worthless excuses of human being. Okay, the ones that preach that all gays should be killed or die are douchebags, but I still would treat them as human.

[RedPouch]

I never said "immersing yourself in homosexuality."

I said "immerse oneself in something one knows he or she would not enjoy."
Yes I know, however this stems off the notion of Elpizo refusing to play the game because Noctis might [thought doubtfully] be gay. Hence my using your words in that context. I just put in "homosexuality" there because in this case for him, that would be the "something he knows he wouldn't enjoy" part.


Now you appear to be backtracking on your initial response in order to continue trying to fight with me, because you decided you don't like me...believing me to be a homophobe when I am actually far closer to your side than theirs.
Okay well I consider this to be actually putting words in someone's mouth, or just misunderstanding. I might be poking at your words, however they're directed mostly at Elpizo [which is why I'm saying his name often]. I'm not really mentioning you aside from quoting your words.


I find hatred despicable no matter who it is directed toward.
If someone murders my mother, I'm going to hate them. Doesn't matter. I find it to be a justifiable hatred because it was blatant harm [which I find unacceptable]. Now, this isn't murder obviously, but it's someone that's showing apparent disgust at the notion of a video game possibly having one of "my kind" in it. So yes, don't expect me to like said person. That's ridiculous. I don't understand why you expect me to actually like homophobes, when I'm gay.

And by the way [this is directed at Elpizo], I'm not accepting this "disinterested" trash. It's misuse of the word. Being disinterested in something implies impartiality and indifference - ie. something along the lines of "eh, doesn't matter if he's gay or not". However, that is not the case here. The case is - "Wow, a gay male lead? -200% interest - screw that".


–adjective
1.
unbiased by personal interest or advantage; not influenced by selfish motives


Again, you are raging over nothing, taking things out of context and trying create an argument that doesn't exist because you believed me to be a homophobe and therefore felt the need to dispute everything I wrote.
I didn't think you were a homophobe, just Elpizo. By the way, I think you started writing this post a really long time ago, because you misquoted me [not on purpose]. I changed this portion of my post a long time ago because I didn't write what I want to say correctly, probably after you had already started writing. Anyways, the point of this argument of course is to show how I believe his reasoning for not wanting to play the game is based on homophobia. I repeat - it has nothing to do with you, which is why I mention his name in my post, and not yours. I'm attacking the possible defense for him, yes, but it's ultimately only aimed at Elpizo. There's a difference. Your post last page stated that you wouldn't mind and that you'd actually find a gay character interesting or whatever, so obviously I acknowledge that you aren't really homophobic.



I never said I didn't think Elpizo was a homophobe. I never mentioned him at all in fact.
Yes, I know that. That portion of the post wasn't even directed at you. It's directed at Elpizo. Again, I merely attacked the notion of playing a game with a gay character being "immersing yourself in homosexuality", which in this case "homosexuality" would be the "thing you don't enjoy", hence my using that line.

Short version: I think you misinterpreted most of my post as attacking you, when most of it was actually against Elpizo.

[LunarWeaver]

I think he will deny this and later come out, like Lance Bass and Ricky Martin.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

I think he will deny this and later come out, like Lance Bass and Ricky Martin.

Oh Lu~

[RedPouch]

Oh wait, okay Crowseye I just read your apology portion of your post [I was wondering why your text suddenly turned grey]. Don't worry about it man, we're cool.

[Crowseye]

My whole point is the fact that someone is gay, shouldn't take away from the entertainment--that their sexual orientation should be incidental not defining (I am well aware that this is not always the case in life either).

I agree with you completely. That is what I believe too. It shouldn't.

But it does. I am saying that because it does, I think it's okay that they don't want to play the game. I'm certainly not saying we should pat them on the back and congratulate them for their homophobia -- but I think there are better approaches than going around calling people homophobes and telling them their reasons are stupid (particularly when said person does not want to admit, or is not aware of, their own homophobia).


I don't like Sienfield because I don't find it funny and the character of George aggravates me. However, were I not to like Sienfield because Jerry Sienfield is Jewish, then that would be another story. That'd be considered racist, to a degree at least. Not playing knowing no more than the main character is gay shows a degree of homophobia, no matter how you spill it. Like you said, it is not so black and white and can be expressed in minor ways.

Yep, never said knowing you would not enjoy a game because it had a homosexual character, is not homophobic. It definitely is. We agree on that.


However, what I said is still valid. Heterosexuals will not get sympathies from homosexuals because they are potentially being exposed to homosexual displays. We see heterosexuality displayed all the time, everywhere we go.

I understand. I'm certainly not pleading for sympathy for homophobes. I'm not trying to excuse homophobic behavior directed at homosexuals. I don't like homophobia. But it exists. Calling somebody a homophobe is not usually going to make them sincerely try not to be one IMO. A person certainly can--and should--choose not to act on one's homophobia, but while a person can try to not be homophobic in the psychological sense, it's not as simple as that IMO. There are reflexes and tendencies built up from spending years in a society that detests homosexuality that one simply cannot overcome in a day by willing them.

Admitting one is a homophobe, or racist, or whatever, and trying to recognize those reflexes or tendencies is one of the first steps to changing them (as I have been told in numerous conferences on the matter /shrug ). Accusing somebody of something tends to be a surefire way to get them to vehemently claim the opposite.


Furthermore, it is a double standard. Heterosexuality is taken as a given, a default that no one would really think twice about. However, that is not the case as soon as the character is not heterosexual.

Agreed. There is a double standard. I would never say that a homosexual should enjoy the gazillion games out there with all heterosexual characters. Hopefully, some day, gamers, developers, and publishers recognize that the gaming community also consists of homosexual players.


Homophobia, as well, comes in many degrees and ways. Simply not playing a game solely because the main character is gay is homophobic. Not like those who say all gays should die, but homophobic nonetheless. Perhaps mildly homophobic would be an apt description. However, choosing not to play a game, for whatever reasons, that has a gay character is not homophobic in and of itself. There's a difference. A key difference.

Agreed. If somebody doesn't play vXIII (with a homosexual Noctis), and their reason is, say, because they don't like the Final Fantasy series. That's certainly not homophobic. That's what I meant when I suggested that "not playing a game with a homosexual character doesn't make you homophobic."

And yes, not playing a game because of the presence of a homosexual character is homophobic (whether that homophobia is admitted to or not).

I understand that (many/most) homosexuals are (probably) angry for what they have had to put up with, in games and everything else. I just personally don't think that striving for some sort of "payback" or trying to shame people out of their homophobia is going to be good for anybody in the long run. (Of course, violent homophobes we should get rid of immediately).

[Mirage]

My opinion?
Whatever.

[Rodney]

Big deal. In the story idea my bro and I are planning to work on and submit to Square soon, two main characters were (and still are) gonna be gay, and be the core couple of the story, sort of like how Squall and Rinoa, Zidane and Garnet, and Tidus and Yuna were the core couples of their games. (Only . . . they were straight, of course.)

[Elpizo]

Oh man. TSoL has pretty much summed up my opinions on the whole matter. DEAL WID IT. To choose not to play a game because the lead is gay is smurfing ridic. That speaks nothing about content, gameplay, storyline (you will argue that it does because oh my god the lead is gay - but, what if they simply substitute the male love interest with a female one? same story).

So if I don't like guns only in a game, I should still go play Resonance of Fate? Right. Because what you're saying is: "If you don't like something about a game, ignore your own interests and preferences and still play it stupid!"
It's the same deal here. Just like some people won't play XIII because Hope's in it. Are they kidophobe because of that? Am I gunophobe because I won't play Resonance of Fate?

I WILL deal with it. By choosing not to play it, should it be true. Can you grasp that, or am I too homophobe and pathetic for you to do so?


In Elpizo's statement, the mere thought of a character being gay [yet again, even if this were true, there likely wouldn't be any on-screen romance] is enough to turn him away from a potentially good game "-200%" by his own words [later he attempted to soften this by saying "well I'm just 'disinterested'"]. God forbid if a gay guy were actually around him in person - that's even worse than seeing a gay video game character on-screen. Fly outta there man! It's okay, we know it's only because you're "disinterested". We also know that merely having a gay guy in your vicinity, or even worse, a friend that's a gay guy - is AUTOMATICALLY qualified as "immersing yourself in homosexuality". This is absolutely true 100% no exceptions.

Will you stop putting me in a monster position already? You're so hell-bent on making me out to be homophobic and evil it's painful to watch. I said it before, if I see a gay people out there I won't mind at all. I won't even be disgusted. I won't even give a damn. But in a game it does tamper my interests. Just like, if Nomura said Versus XIII would only have guns, my interests would ALSO be -200%. Get that? Or am I just attempting to soften it again? You seem to know better than me what I think, so you say it.

And to add: last I saw a series on TV where a jury goes eat in the homes of different, normal people and judge their meal. One of the people they went to was gay. Guess what? I didn't switch of the channel. Because I liked the program.

Oh no, wait, I'm just attempting to soften it again because I'm SO homophobe and evil for loosing interest in Versus XIII if Noctis is gay just like I would loose interest in Versus XIII if it only had guns.

[RedPouch]

It's the same deal here. Just like some people won't play XIII because Hope's in it. Are they kidophobe because of that?
Well you said it yourself right there.

"Just like some people won't play because XIII because Hope's in it"

Not playing it because of a single character named Hope, and not playing another game because a character happens to be gay, are two different entirely different things.

Also, think of what you said this way. The "Gay character? -200% interest" etc, this has been said already but you need to understand why that's offensive for you to say. If you merely substitute "gay" for "black" or "female" [or both?], it wound sound pretty damn offensive. And yes, the fact that something so minor and irrelevant can tamper your interests to discredit and ENTIRE work doesn't credit your character very well.

You're of course, free to have your opinion, and you have every right to not play XIII Versus. We're not forcing you to play it, and we certainly as hell don't care if you do or not. However, you did take time to make a topic here complaining about it, so it's obviously something you REALLY don't like. If you're trying to convince me that you aren't homophobic in any way by equating "not wanting to play a game that happens to have a gay character in it" with guns, you're doing a piss-poor job. And the fact that you decided to make this "omg I'm never gonna play a Final Fantasy game with a GAY dude in it" whine-topic, on a forum that's notorious for having several gay gamers on it, is what confuses me when I consider that you seem a little surprised by our reactions.

[Loony BoB]

I don't get what you guys are worrying about, most recent lead characters in the FF series are gay. Look at Tidus, prime example.

EDIT: Seriously, would having a gay lead make it less appealing for me? Of course it would. I would find it hard to relate to a homosexual character, and relating to your character is rather key in an RPG. I'm not against gay characters in games, however being the lead means that I'm less likely to feel compelled towards playing it for the same reason a female lead makes me less compelled towards playing FFX-2. I would be interested in how many homosexuals would be more interested in a game if it allowed them to play a gay lead - does that mean they are heterophobes? No, it just means that they're more interested in a game that they can relate to, and that's nothing bad at all.

[Elpizo]

I DID NOT MAKE THIS TOPIC TO WHINE OR COMPLAIN ABOUT THE FACT THAT NOCTIS IS GAY OR NOT. I shared the news, that is all, and gave my thoughts on it. Stop putting words in my mouth. I also like how you continued to make me seem evil, disregarding all the rest I said. But OF COURSE you know better than me, because I am an evil homophobe after all, regardless of the fact that I said that guns only in Versus XIII, or the entire game pink, would also be -200% interest for me.

Besides, it was an april's fools anyway.

[RedPouch]

because I am an evil homophobe after all, regardless of the fact that I said that guns only in Versus XIII, or the entire game pink
Don't switch arguments mid-debate to suit your agenda or trying to make yourself seem less prejudiced. You didn't come here saying "Man, I hope this game isn't all guns, or too much pink". We got "Dude, if Noctis is really gay then I'm definitely not gonna play this game. That's -200% interest for me". You're merely adding that "guns/pink" bit on at the last minute, hoping we'll go "oh okay, yeah I understand".


Besides, it was an april's fools anyway.
Of course it was. I don't think this has been the main point of the topic for several pages now.


I don't get what you guys are worrying about, most recent lead characters in the FF series are gay. Look at Tidus, prime example.
If Tidus is what we get stuck with for the "here, there's your gay character now be quiet" pacifier then I quit here and now.


EDIT: Seriously, would having a gay lead make it less appealing for me? Of course it would. I would find it hard to relate to a homosexual character, and relating to your character is rather key in an RPG. I'm not against gay characters in games, however being the lead means that I'm less likely to feel compelled towards playing it for the same reason a female lead makes me less compelled towards playing FFX-2. I would be interested in how many homosexuals would be more interested in a game if it allowed them to play a gay lead - does that mean they are heterophobes? No, it just means that they're more interested in a game that they can relate to, and that's nothing bad at all.
Huge difference between not being able to relate as well to the lead for being gay, as opposed to rejecting the game entirely based off of it. Hell, as we've said, we play video games with straight male leads all the time, and straight female leads as well. Same thing goes with straight romance - it's all up in our faces, everywhere. Movies, books, TV shows, going out, whatever. Does it bothers us? No. Not even in the slightest. Basically, we're saying "deal with it - we do", ie. we're not really understanding how this is actually something worth complaining about. It's pretty insulting if you ask me. I'm not asking you to change your opinion, because you won't. But I'm certainly as hell not going to say "Yeah man I know how you feel. I totally support how you feel there".

[Elpizo]

Yeah, well, you seem branded on making me an evil homophobe, so fine, I'll just play along and say you're right. I'M A BAD HATER! BOO!

[RedPouch]

Yeah, well, you seem branded on making me an evil homophobe, so fine, I'll just play along and say you're right. I'M A BAD HATER! BOO!
XD At the very least, please tell me you aren't surprised by this. I'm having a hard time believing that you didn't see this coming, especially seeing as how you have nearly 1k posts and you've been here since 2006. Oh well, I acknowledge your admission!

[Elpizo]

Also, please add that I am a gunophobe because I do not play Resonance of Fate and don't like RPGs with only guns in it. I'm also a pinkophobe because I don't like games with only pink in it. I'm a horrorophobe because I don't like horrormovies. I'm a hopehaterophobe because I don't like it when people bash Hope Estheim. I'm a muslimophobe because I hate terrorist attacks by Islamic extremists. I'm a christianophobe because I hate the crusades. I am a chemistryophobe because I hated my chemistry classes at school. I am... So on.

Satisfied?

EDIT: Forgot to say, but my evil homophobia is CLEARLY proven by the fact that Mr. 2 Bon Clay (a travestite AND a gay character) in the anime One Piece is actually one of my favourite characters. Oh, but I'm probably just making excuses again, right? Sorry! You know better than me what I like best, after all. Because no matter what I say, I always "add it last minute", because you SO know better than me how I think and what I do and like. How can one even argue with you? Everything I say you just wipe off with "you just say so in the hopes of us agreeing". Well, screw you. You and your stupid Elpizophobia.

You don't even give me a chance to defend myself. You're so stupid in your narrow view of "Elpizo doesn't want to play with a gay main character, he's homophobe! Hate him! Brand him with the sign of evil!" that you don't even give me a chance to defend myself. And even if I do, you ignore all my arguments just because supposedly "I use them to draw sympathy" and not because they're actually valid points on my part. No, because I AM homophobe and you just HAVE to prove that! Elpizo is evil! Hate him!

[Loony BoB]

If Tidus is what we get stuck with for the "here, there's your gay character now be quiet" pacifier then I quit here and now.
I'm more saying 'he' is a total woman. ;)

Huge difference between not being able to relate as well to the lead for being gay, as opposed to rejecting the game entirely based off of it.
Hell, as we've said, we play video games with straight male leads all the time, and straight female leads as well.
And of the games that have had straight female leads, I've not played many. I should probably note that I never said that I'd not get the game, but only that it makes me less likely to. The two are very different and should not be confused. I'd probably have got the game anyway.

Same thing goes with straight romance - it's all up in our faces, everywhere. Movies, books, TV shows, going out, whatever. Does it bothers us? No. Not even in the slightest.
Yes, but that's not for lack of choice when it comes to gaming. I'm not against the idea of gays being lead characters, I'm just saying I would be less likely to take an interest in the game because, well, it doesn't fit into my ideal gaming perspective, which is one where I can understand and relate to the characters. I can't understand or relate to homosexuals because I'm not homosexual myself. I won't pretend that I understand it at all, because that would be on par with saying "I totally understand how blacks feel oppressed" when, in all reality, I don't. I've never been in such a situation so I can't relate.


Basically, we're saying "deal with it - we do", ie. we're not really understanding how this is actually something worth complaining about.
There is a distinctive difference between saying "I'm less likely to play it" and complainging about it. I think it would be fantastic for there to be a gay lead character in more games - but only because I think that homosexuals and even bisexuals should have the right to be able to have lead characters that they can totally relate to. I think it's a splendid idea. Doesn't mean I'd go out of my way to buy any of the games myself, but I don't understand why gays shouldn't be able to have well designed and developed games with intense lead roles that just so happen to be homosexual.

Basically, if I had the choice between many games that were designed well then I'd naturally opt for the one with a heterosexual male lead rather than a female lead or homosexual male lead. It makes sense for me. Luckily for myself, I'm blessed for choice when it comes to games targeted towards heterosexual males. So I can make that choice and I can disregard the other options. That's not saying I don't like females/homosexuals, nor is it saying that I don't want them to have fantastic games with the leads that they can relate to. It's simply saying that when I buy a game, I am making a choice. Right now, you don't have that choice (to my knowledge) and I think you should. But if you did have that choice, I wouldn't expect you to demand that I play your game any more than you should expect me to demand that you play mine. That's just silly. Choices are choices.

EDIT: It should be noted also that I admit to being a homophobe openly. Not in that I fear homosexuals (who I don't have any problems with that I wouldn't have with a heterosexual), but I fear homosexual acts being done to me, which I think is a perfectly acceptable thing to fear. With that in mind, it only makes sense that I would not want to see these things being done to "my" character.

[Snope]

this is what i see.

"im not homophobic but his ass is gay? i aint playing that mess".

It shouldnt matter to most "nonhomophobes" iif hes gay as long as he ya know doesnt kiss a guy.

i wouldnt mind it :P but i think im 1000% more pumped to buy this XDD

[Elpizo]

EDIT: It should be noted also that I admit to being a homophobe openly. Not in that I fear homosexuals (who I don't have any problems with that I wouldn't have with a heterosexual), but I fear homosexual acts being done to me, which I think is a perfectly acceptable thing to fear. With that in mind, it only makes sense that I would not want to see these things being done to "my" character.

Well, I agree with this, and I'm the same. Now come and brand me with the sign of evil, Elpizo haters. Because I'm so bad and despicable for thinking like this.

[RedPouch]

To Loony Bob - Your post is basically a lengthened explanation so I'll respond without quoting. I'm saying that for guys like me [not sure about Moon Rabbits etc.] even if there were 2983748923 games with gay male leads in it, I still wouldn't find it objectionable to play games with straight male leader or female ones. I can still love a character if he's good enough regardless of those things. In fact, something out of the ordinary makes it more fun, don't you think?

I just think it's sad [though I'm still aware it's quite common] to reject something based on something like that. I can understand a straight guy isn't going to be all "Oh yeah, a gay male lead! I've been waiting for ever!" or anything like that. However I'd say that rejecting the ENTIRE thing based on that one, single quality, is absolutely pathetic. Nevermind the art of the game, the great character designs, the elaborate story plot they spent years on, the wonderful graphics it might have, the potentially awesome gameplay, the amazing battle system. Nope. None of that counts. It all falls apart because the lead happens to be gay. I don't think there's a "nice" way to paint this. I'm not saying everyone should be 100% always looking forward to it, but geeze at least give it a chance [though I know many people won't, no worries].


Well, I agree with this, and I'm the same. Now come and brand me with the sign of evil, Elpizo haters. Because I'm so bad and despicable for thinking like this.
Don't switch arguments mid-debate to suit your agenda or trying to make yourself seem less prejudiced. You didn't come here saying "Man, I fear homosexual acts being done upon me". We got "Dude, if Noctis is really gay then I'm definitely not gonna play this game. That's -200% interest for me". You're merely jumping on Loony Bob's bandwagon at the last minute, hoping we'll go "oh okay, yeah I understand".


I'm more saying 'he' is a total woman. ;)
Pfft, no thanks. You guys can keep him.

And for the record, stating that you don't want homosexual acts done upon you is useless. That isn't homophobia as you try to stretch it out to be. I wouldn't want straight acts done to me either, but I have no problem being surrounded by straight friends kissing in front of me / straight romance on TV etc. Two entirely different things. Now, to say something like "I don't want to make friends with gay guys because I'm afraid they'll do homosexual acts upon me" would be homophobia, aside from being blatantly stupid.

[Elpizo]

I'll use it again, and I don't give a damn if you say it's just an argument I cooked up: if Versus XIII had only guns, I wouldn't play it either. It's called being very picky. And that I'm very picky, I'm aware. Some things you don't like but tolerate, others you don't like and stay away from (in a game only). Noctis being gay is one of those things. Gameplay only being about guns is one of those things. The entire game being pink is one of those things. The entire game being dubbed in dutch (my mother language) is one of those things. It's what I am and how I do my stuff.

I'm sure you have quirks others would call 'pathetic' too.

Had anybody but Noctis been gay, I wouldn't have minded as much, because they're not the main and you're not supposed identify with them. But Noctis is the main and I'm pretty sure you're supposed to identify with him. If he's gay I can't do that, and if you can't identify with your main character, it takes the joy out of your story. It's why I don't mind all the travesty and gayness in One Piece: they're not the main characters, so you're not as much suposed to identify with them.

I suppose you could say "But Lightning's the main in XIII and she's a woman! Can you identify with her, huh?!" No I don't really can, but XIII isn't Lightning's story, it's the entire cast, and there's no real lead. That makes it easier.

Furthermore, I tend to accept what Loony Bob said below, that if Noctis being gay was just a little detail and not really important to the story, I wouldn't be bothered as much by it (I'd still wouldn't be able to identify with him, but maybe I would give the game a try if I heard that the rest of the story and gameplay were awesome). But given the series' history with romance being central to the plot, I doubt this would be the case.

[Loony BoB]

I agree that rejecting a game entirely based on "oh, he's gay" would be sad. It would depend on more than just the fact that he's gay. I watch TV shows with gay leads, I've watched movies with gay leads (eg: I watched Brokeback Mountain but admittedly found it very boring and unenjoyable, personally speaking) and some I have enjoyed, some not so much. Games put you in some vague amount of control of a character, though, and it would be nice if there were options rather than being told "In this game, you like guys" because it's very hard to force that. Having said that, if it was not a major part of the game but just a sidenote about a character then I'd not be bothered at all. If it was a major part of the game that you are involved in a male to male relationship, I would probably be a little weirded out by that and would never really enjoy the game because of the lack of ability to relate to the main storyline, though. Probably similar to Brokeback Mountain. But that was boring as it stands. At least, I thought so.

[RedPouch]

I'll use it again, and I don't give a damn if you say it's just an argument I cooked up.
Well you apparently do because you keep repeating it, hoping I'll buy it. I've responded to your argument many times, so you've already heard everything I have to say. And in fact, I don't know you at all, so for all I know this could be a bunch of crockahooey you're adding on at the last second to try and get out of the homophobic spotlight or whatever. People do this in debates/arguments all the time.


HOWEVER, I will say one last thing - let's acknowledge that it's 100% fact that everything you just said is true, that you don't have a spec of homophobic feeling in you. That's great and I appreciate it - I wish more people were like that. However, one thing you need to learn when posting or speaking is tact/attitude/etc [which is a problem for me too apparently, but in a different way, because I default to aggressive language often and people think I'm raging on every post when I'm actually not]. You also need to understand that [like I said before] these forums are well known for having several gay gamers that frequent it quite a bit. Knowing this, you need to chose your words carefully when talking about things like not wanting a gay male lead for a video game, and first impressions are important. Being that this is my first impression of you [I don't think I've ever spoken to you before], all I see is someone coming here and making a topic with the statement of "Dude, if Noctis is really gay then I'm definitely not gonna play this game. That's -200% interest for me". Making a statement like that, you had to have figured that at least one of the gay guys here would've come and spat fire on you for it. You're responding quite a lot to our posts, and you seem to really be ticked off at having the finger of "homophobia" pointed out at you. Clearly you aren't fond of this result, so I'm gathering that you really weren't expecting this or at least didn't want it. So for next time [should something like this ever happen again], if you want to make such a statement and not get any flak for it, then you might want to avoid statements like this:

"Dude, if Noctis is really gay then I'm definitely not gonna play this game. That's -200% interest for me"

And instead, say something like this:

"Well it seems there's this rumour that [blank] in [random game] might be gay. This is great and all, but I'm not sure if I'll be able to relate to a gay guy very much. I don't have any problem with gay guys at all, and it'd be fine if one of the other characters was gay. Hell, I even like some manga that has gay/bi characters in it. But for the lead, I need a guy I can relate to, ya know?"

The latter seems far less prejudiced and 50x more understandable than the former. However in a debate or argument or whatever, you lose credibility if you make a brazen statement then keep going back to it later and constantly try to amend it/alter it/add to it/etc. Choosing your words carefully and being tactful is important. If you don't want to be tactful or choose words carefully - that's fine, it's your choice. We're in the free world afterall [even if you're living somewhere less "free", you're at least free enough on the internet], so you're entitled to act however you want. But you should at least expect the consequences for it.


Probably similar to Brokeback Mountain. But that was boring as it stands. At least, I thought so.
It was boring. It's basically just a controversy/guts stunt to give them all a big name "hell yeah, you've got a lot of guts!" though that doesn't discredit their work at all. I found it to be boring too though. But hey, virtual pat on your back from me for at least giving it a chance!

[Loony BoB]

I agree that tact can be a lovely thing and that the original post could be seen as trolling as it was so poorly worded. I'm glad that we can all come to an understanding of each other over this, though, so hopefully people can continue to move on to other threads.

[Loony BoB]

Please, let's avoid personal attacks going forward as this is only going to lead to the thread being closed.

This is the 'nice' way of me asking. :) Let's all shake hands and move on rather than continuing to increase the heat in your posts to the point that you are both warned for personal attacks.

EDIT: Some old and new posts (ie, before and after this post) have been deleted.

[arcanedude34]

Honestly, I'm a straight guy, and I was rather excited at the thought of Square taking such a bold step in the right direction. I mean, a black character who isn't a Mr. T knockoff AND a gay lead in two games in the same trilogy(?) of games? Hell yeah, Square, you're getting cool again!

Of course, too good to be true.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, the sexuality of the characters should have 0 effect on your enjoyment if you're as secure in your sexuality as you claim. I can enjoy love stories between a man and a woman, two men, two women, etc. Of course, I will admit I IDENTIFY with the man/woman pairing most, but I would never say that a game is worse for having a male/male couple. It would be a nice change of pace at the very least.

[Loony BoB]

I've closed this thread. From what I can see, people have had a little trouble with tact in their posts, upset some people and misunderstood one another to the point that it got heated and people reacted to each other a little beyond the point they should have.

The fact that it's about an April Fool's news update doesn't do any favours towards keeping the thread open, either.

Basically let's all just have a cuddle.