XIII: The Flaw thread

[Garnie]

So I was reading some peoples views on FFXIII and I felt that I needed to start this thread.

So I like the story but I think that the actual game it self leaves something to be desired. Unlike XII i hated the story as it was awful but the game, battle system and other various parts was actually ok. With this one i like the story but the game is just silly...

You cant wander about to different towns and stuff
GIL, you cant earn it which makes it hard to customize and stuff
no minigames!! I thought there was like a gold saucer type place...but nooooooooooooo..........
some creatures in the game are just stupid to defeat especialy when you need to level grind

Well im only on chapter 11 but i think im justified.

What do annoys you?

[PaulinasKnight]

You basically sum it up for me. There are no side quests. It is too linear. The monsters lack variety. I'll finish playing it just because it's FF, but it's actually quite disappointing after the long wait. :(

[NeoCracker]

I have no issues with linearity or lack of sidequests, since the game itself is actually fun enough to play to not need them. No game should ever need sidequests to be fun to play.

The biggest disappointment is that horrid excuse of an ending, and such an underdeveloped main plot.

[Darkwolf090]

As for the XII comment im not gonna touch it since i hate that game so damn much, as for XIII
It made up for XII to me, however yes it could of used a free roam and a party selection system before chapter 11 of 13, other then that, the battle system is new but i like it, as well as the chars, i like most hate some as in like one lol. So all in all I dont really have to much to bitch about.

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[Cloudane]

I thought it had a habit of making you think one of the "missing" elements was there, or just getting to something cool, and then snatching it away like a big tease.

In detail, a few examples:

You reach that chocobo place with Sazh and Vanille and think "ooh.... I can see a chocobo breeding or racing game appearing here later!" - but you never return. The best (cough) that you get is 'chase the chick'.

OMG AIRSHIP! Then it crashes.

Pulse. Just as you're getting into it and hoping to see more cities, maybe even some civilisation somewhere: it's off back to Cocoon we go! Like the developers got bored when they got to the bridge and said "right, let's wrap it up".

Pretty much everything about Cid and the Cavalry. That should've been the game's Al Bhed, but no...


Those were the big ones. I think there were lots of smaller ones that I can't recall well enough to specify right now.

[Skyblade]

I like sidequests in RPGs because they make me feel like there is more to the world than just what we see. How am I supposed to care about Cocoon? It's an endless tunnel which offers nothing but a never ending line of monster after monster. How the hell do my characters get through it? Why would they keep fighting for this world? There is nothing in it worth saving, and certainly nothing worth the continuing fight after twenty hours.

Sidequests help me to get attached to the world. They show me the world beyond my narrow (though important) quest to save everything. We see life, love, heroism, sacrifice, and so much more all across the world in a hundred little ways. From fetching medicine for an ill child to saving a lone mercenary from a band of headhunters, sidequests bring the world to life. They envelop you in the world and let you experience it in so many more ways than the main story does.

[seiferalmasy2]

Here we go again

"I preferred it without sidequests and minigames and towns and screw anyone who did like them"

[arcanedude34]

Here we go again

"I preferred it without sidequests and minigames and towns and screw anyone who did like them"
Dude, who are you even referring to? :confused:

[seiferalmasy2]

I have no issues with linearity or lack of sidequests, since the game itself is actually fun enough to play to not need them. No game should ever need sidequests to be fun to play.


Him for one and I don't just mean here. I keep seeing this on multiple forums. The idea that it simply doesn't doesn't matter. Ok not so much on this thread and 1 or 2 more, but there is definately a lot of this "I am totally ok with it" and I just think that is wrong. The game should allow choice.

[Loony BoB]

My biggest gripes with the game would be...

1. The difficulty in getting gil late in the game, particularly given how much you need in order to achieve all trophies. I need to get 61 more Platinum Ingots. I expect to spend days on end doing this. =/ At least it's a goal, I guess, but they could have made a better way to do it or at lease have the Gui drop Ingots more often or even something more valuable.
2. The lack of minigames in the 'City of Dreams'.
3. The rather confusing ending.
4. The late, late, late party selection option. I can't remember for certain, but I think even when you have four characters, you still can't switch them around.
5. Chapter 10's designfail.

There's probably more, just can't think of them right now.

[Mo-Nercy]

1. Paradigms aren't 'saved' to your character line-up. Whenever you feel like changing up the party, you have to reset/re-customize all the paradigms from their default settings.
2. I want moneys, dammit!
3. Party leaders dies = game over (Retry screen, actually). I preferred the way FFXII let you re-select a party leader and resume the battle.

[Madame Adequate]

I have no issues with linearity or lack of sidequests, since the game itself is actually fun enough to play to not need them. No game should ever need sidequests to be fun to play.


Him for one and I don't just mean here. I keep seeing this on multiple forums. The idea that it simply doesn't doesn't matter. Ok not so much on this thread and 1 or 2 more, but there is definately a lot of this "I am totally ok with it" and I just think that is wrong. The game should allow choice.

If you want choice you need a different genre, because you sure as :bou::bou::bou::bou: are not going to find much in JRPGs.

[demondude]

Mario Party might be a safe bet.

[VeloZer0]

- Lack of ability to save paradigms
- Able to have more paradigms equipped. I found having characters start to spec into their secondary jobs absolutely useless as I was already completely full. I ended up reworking my deck every fight
- Hotkey to paradigm menu from field map. L1 does Sols, why not have R2 open a little menu in the bottom of the screen? I change them almost every fight, so it would be nice to have a quick way to do so.
- Be able to shop, save and upgrade from the same menu. I don't like having to go all the way out, wait for loading, then go back into the save point.
- Not really a flaw but a nice to have would be changing leaders in battle.

Most other things I (like lack of plot, ect...) are more thinks that could have been done much better, not explicit flaws.

[Loony BoB]

1. Paradigms aren't 'saved' to your character line-up. Whenever you feel like changing up the party, you have to reset/re-customize all the paradigms from their default settings.
Oh, yes, definitely this. :(

[No.78]

Yes because we need more negativity for FFXIII.

/sigh

[Loony BoB]

There's nothing disastrously negative about conceding flaws in a game - I mean, every good game has it's flaws.

[Raistlin]

1. Paradigms aren't 'saved' to your character line-up. Whenever you feel like changing up the party, you have to reset/re-customize all the paradigms from their default settings.

YES! Holy crap that was annoying. Another technical problem: the menu map always facing the same direction as your character instead of north.

[Madame Adequate]

1. Paradigms aren't 'saved' to your character line-up. Whenever you feel like changing up the party, you have to reset/re-customize all the paradigms from their default settings.

YES! Holy crap that was annoying. Another technical problem: the menu map always facing the same direction as your character instead of north.

Yes and yes.

Being a healer in battle is ridiculously boring. It just doesn't feel like you're doing anything - I know what you're doing is the same as when you're anything else, but it doesn't feel it for some reason.

[Garnie]

The problem I'm having is i do really like this game but there just parts that wont stop annoying me! I'm in total agreement with the party leader dies game over thing. At least you can retry though. If that wasn't there I would have given up ages ago. Theirs another thing that annoys me to, the whole cant flee from battle thing. Every time i even go in the vicinity of a king behemoth I'm screaming like a little girl and doing one >:/

[Madame Adequate]

Oh one thing that really does make my asscrack itch: you can only summon your party leader's summon. I like Vanille. I like her summon. I do not like controlling her in battle. I just want to call in Hecaton when I'm doing my usual Sazh or Lightning thing :(

[Wolf Kanno]

The main plot is bad, and it takes 20+ hours to care about the cast. Not to mention the ending is terrible. The game's plot peaks at Chapter 7 and 8 and then proceeds to spiral downward as each new plot twist seems to dumb down the moral complexity of the game into a boring good old fashion Good Vs. Evil. The story NPCs are completely wasted on this game.

The Upgrade system is hindered by having the items needed to upgrade also being your gil and furthermore the majority of item in the game give you crap for gil and enemies never drop them in bulk. This leads to the system not really opening up until Chapter 11 (practically the last 10% of the game) when the game gives you Mark Hunts that are kind enough to give you expensive items. You just reach a point where it becomes obvious the only way to get the necessary items to upgrade is by buying them in bulk cause the game constantly fails to provide enough materials that are worthwhile.

I wish there character stats were not so streamlined and that Paradigm Roles reflected the stats they need so I could actually have real customization options as opposed to the illusion of such. I just wish it wasn't purely skill based.

The dungeons are boring. Pretty but incredibly boring and overly simplistic. Consequently I will also point out the game lacks any form of immersion into its world, I never once cared about Cocoon cause it simply never felt like it existed for me. It was just a place that had one road after another with brain dead NPC occasionally popping up to due nothing relevant not even create the illusion of terror or any other form of human emotion. Gran Pulse feels a bit more realistic but suffers from being terribly empty and stale at times.

Stealing the MegaTen rules about party leader death. You know what? This works in MegaTen cause the game is based off a elemental/weakness exploitation system and your party leader can be equipped in such a way where they are invincible to such weaknesses, drastically reducing party death. XIII does not have this feature and enemies like AoE... so yeah. I can't tell you how obnoxious it was to get a game over cause I'm playing as Hope or Vanille and its because only they died while the rest of my party is fine and I have 20+ Phoenix Downs. This was a very bad move created to give the game a bad difficulty increase.

EDIT: I also forgot to mention the Data Log which constantly told the story better than the cutscenes and dialogue ever did and even had problems of revealing plot elements before the game did or even some plot twists the game only hinted at but never said.

[Cloudane]

The upgrade system was an annoyance, yeah. "Right so I can use these items as components... but should I be saving them for anything else? Some of them are also available from 'creature comforts', does that mean they might be for a creature related sidequest or perhaps for strengthening Eidolons like in FF8 and others? Are some of them better sold for money so I can buy better components instead?" etc etc, this was going through my mind all the time.

And then that awful thing where you don't know how much EXP (or whatever) the component will give a specific weapon or armour until you press X on it - and on another component - and on another component - and on another component... so that you don't waste a component that gives 15000 to one item on something that only gets 4000 from it. Possibly one of the most tedious game mechanics since FF1's "find out the attributes by noting your character's existing attributes then equipping the new item and using maths" system.

[Karifean]

The two things I truly hate about this game are 1.: not being able to switch the party member you control during battle (would be a great improvement) and 2.: the freakingly dumb AI of Medics. Seriously, I think I keep failing Gigantuar just because my Medic always casts Esuna on my Sentinel instead of Curaga. And why the hell don't they use Cura or Curaja when everyone is at green HP, but not at 100%!?

[louby_4eva]

Theirs another thing that annoys me to, the whole cant flee from battle thing. Every time i even go in the vicinity of a king behemoth I'm screaming like a little girl and doing one >:/

If you press select (maybe start) in a battle and then click retry it spawns you out of the fight. You just reappear next to the bad guy so you can run away :) You can still end up back in the fight if you're unlucky enough to walk straight back into it but most of the time you're far enough away to escape :)

Smile and Be happy :love:

[Cloudane]

Yeah I did have one occasion (can't remember where, somewhere on the plains I think) where it kindly placed me back within instant aggro/battle range on retry, so I had no choice but to keep trying until I won (or quit to the last save and lose a couple of hours work). It's very rare though, as far as I can tell.

[Skyblade]

Biggest Flaw in the Game: The Battle Mechanics are too damned slow to show up. You complete the entire first chapter and can't do anything but attack. The wait for new abilities and the chance to level up/customize your characters is so excruciatingly slow it is killing the game.

[asukaevaunit02]

Oh one thing that really does make my asscrack itch: you can only summon your party leader's summon. I like Vanille. I like her summon. I do not like controlling her in battle. I just want to call in Hecaton when I'm doing my usual Sazh or Lightning thing :(

Yes! I didn't like summoning Alexander since Hope was my controlled character, only as a synergist so I could buff the party with haste, bravery or faith straight away. I hated how AI synergists would apply everything when it usually wasn't neccessary.

I would have loved to play as a different character besides Hope (nothing against him) but there were better summons (Bahamut and Hecatoncheir) and would have been interesting to play around with other classes/character more.

[Mo-Nercy]

I've just realised I've only ever summoned Odin and the Shiva sisters. Wow, I better go try those other ones out. xD

I'm with Karifean on the poor AI of the Medic role. I think it's actually spellcasters in general that need to up their game. I really wish my Saboteurs would cast Imperil right off the bat and my Synergists would En[element] me right afterwards. Instead, I get my Synergist casting Faith on my Commando. What a big, fat waste of time.

[Madame Adequate]

Okay SE, bit of free advice: If your game has a system where the loss of one character means game over, DO NOT include a Death spell.

Second: Losing control over your character is pretty widely known to be one of the most annoying and stupid things in games. If it's done right then okay, but when it happens because you're up against a group of enemies who can just spam knockdown attacks, that's pretty retarded guys.

[Shin Gouken]

Okay SE, bit of free advice: If your game has a system where the loss of one character means game over, DO NOT include a Death spell.

Second: Losing control over your character is pretty widely known to be one of the most annoying and stupid things in games. If it's done right then okay, but when it happens because you're up against a group of enemies who can just spam knockdown attacks, that's pretty retarded guys.

This is a major flaw in crisis core too.

Too many cutscenes - 11minutes is far too long. 30 seconds between cutscenes makes you wonder why they even gave you control in the first place, why not just carry on. Saving several times during cutscenes is a sign they are going on too long.

AI - If i have a party of COM-SEN-SYN and the sentinel is the only one being attacked, why the :bou::bou::bou::bou: does the synergist repeatedly cast protect on them when the enemy is dispelling it every turn? Hello but i'd like bravery on my commando but as long as protect is being removed, my synergist will recast it every turn. That's pretty fuckin flawed


Battles should be FUN, bosses should be challenging. When enemies start to appear that are impossible to stagger and have HP in the millions, battles can last upwards of 10minutes. Every encounter feels like a chore

And where the hell is blue magic/enemy skill, Steal/mug and Gilltoss. Where is Holy, Flare, Ultima and Meteor? Why are characters still casting Cure post game???

Battles were fun in previous FF's because it wasn't about Buff-stagger-attack-win. You could control enemies, learn their skills, steal from them or poach them. Chain them or capture them. Trying to find rare enemies for their beastiary entries, drops or steal items. But here, the only thing to do is win. And there's no fun in searching for rare enemies because everything is nicely lined up for you one after the other.

People can love this game. Good for you. But as far as i'm concerned you're still merely accepting what you have and failing to see what this game should of been. And by buying into to this illusion of a game you are simply contributing to the :bou::bou::bou::bou: that will follow

[Cloudane]

I actually thought the boss battles were really good fun. Not as good (or as frustrating) as, say, FFX's Seymour or Yunalesca but more fun than many FF bosses have been lately.

Totally agree about monsters that take forever to kill though, like those damn sandshrew like things (though it's satisfying when they do stagger, and you get to beat the crap out of the alligator thing underneath)

Throwing gil is probably another unfortunate loss to realistic graphics and the integration of monsters into the world itself... it would've looked a bit silly IMO. Certainly bring back Mighty Guard and White Wind though :)

[Shin Gouken]

I actually thought the boss battles were really good fun. Not as good (or as frustrating) as, say, FFX's Seymour or Yunalesca but more fun than many FF bosses have been lately.

Totally agree about monsters that take forever to kill though, like those damn sandshrew like things (though it's satisfying when they do stagger, and you get to beat the crap out of the alligator thing underneath)

Throwing gil is probably another unfortunate loss to realistic graphics and the integration of monsters into the world itself... it would've looked a bit silly IMO. Certainly bring back Mighty Guard and White Wind though :)

Mighty Guard was and white wind were absent from FFXII too, but i considered techniks a form of blue magic because they're sort of an unorthadox form of attacking which many blue magics were. I can understand Gilltoss looking silly, but punching a 50 tonne machine into the air and juggling it seems to work alright. Steal is the major complaint, it just isn't final fantasy without steal =/

[Cloudane]

punching a 50 tonne machine into the air and juggling it seems to work alright.

:lol: touché. A fair comment.

I've never been a fan if stealing unless it's easy. Sitting there hammering buttons for an hour trying to acquire a curaga flute or whatever has never been my idea of fun.

[arcanedude34]

The first two games didn't have steal =p

As for problems with the game, did anyone else dislike the way the character controlled on the field? I know it's more realistic than in previous games where you could go from facing one way to the polar opposite with no transition, but it kinda made navigating a bit of a chore, especially considering the narrow hallways they wanted you to traverse.

[VeloZer0]

Yes.
At first I thought the animations were really cool and realistic looking, how they actually had to make an effort to do an about turn while jogging. Then it just became irritating because of slow handling.

Just another example where making games more realistic makes them less fun.

[Cloudane]

Yeah, that and trying to figure your way around the Calm Lands steppe thing for the first time, when the map rotates with you. Arrrrgh!

It's true that we seem to be losing a lot to modern graphics and realism. I say what we need is a mini computing apocalypse to send us back to the SNES era :)

[seiferalmasy2]

Eventually these great graphics will hit a bottleneck where they arent perceived as amazing anymore and I pray for that day because when it arrives graphics will no longer be able to sell a game.

[Flying Arrow]

Yeah, that and trying to figure your way around the Calm Lands steppe thing for the first time, when the map rotates with you. Arrrrgh!


Yes. Christ almighty, yes.

I'd also like to add some general hate for the camera, which rotates like it weighs 300 lbs and doesn't strafe properly. All those years of work and all those resources and SE couldn't put together an intuitive camera or map to go along with the straight lines. What in the hell is going on over there. There isn't a single element of XIII's gameplay that isn't flawed or infuriating in some way.

[ShinGundam]

It's true that we seem to be losing a lot to modern graphics and realism. I say what we need is a mini computing apocalypse to send us back to the SNES era :)
Not really, It is all about creating the game engine and technical limitations not the visuals, the pre-PS1 Final Fantasy games share a lot of their assets and FF13 designers have to create everything from scratch which is the real difference.

[Cloudane]

It's true that we seem to be losing a lot to modern graphics and realism. I say what we need is a mini computing apocalypse to send us back to the SNES era :)
Not really, It is all about creating the game engine and technical limitations not the visuals, the pre-PS1 Final Fantasy games share a lot of their assets and FF13 designers have to create everything from scratch which is the real difference.

That's my point really? It was a lot easier to develop games in those days because it was just a few sprites, you didn't need a huge complex 'engine' to build it from.

Nowadays the emphasis is on pushing the hardware as hard as possible, in what is basically a competition to create the best graphical output on the platform. That means the competitors need to develop their own graphical engines and sometimes go through several iterations until they're satisfied that it's the best they can possibly achieve - by which time there is something better (this is what killed Duke Nukem Forever and will probably kill Gran Turismo 5. Others manage to squeeze a game out if they don't mind making gameplay/content sacrifices, such as what happened with XIII.)

They're still managing 3 games (well, 1 and a 2-parter) per console generation, but a heck of a lot is being sacrificed for that. It's either that or 1 hopefully really good one per console generation, which would also suck.

There's just so much detail now that the engine has to be more complicated - instead of say a painted backdrop and some polygon models (VII era) you have to consider every little blade of grass, the exact placement of millions of rocks etc. Even if they keep the same engine for the rest of the PS3 releases, it'll still take longer to create the same output as previous generations because of all those little details that they have to specify.

Me, I'd be happy with a REALLY GOOD game (VII level good preferably!) that sacrifices some of the graphical detail. Imagine a HD remix of VII-IX with more detailed character models and higher resolution backdrops but basically the same thing underneath - a bit like what they did with the NES games on the PSP/DS/iPhone - that would be fine. You can't have both though unfortunately.

Edit: Well, you can - but it'd need a HUGE team to create it and so the game itself would end up costing twice as much - and modern games are already criticised for being hideously expensive! Or you go for optional addon packs, which makes less sense with this type of game which is better taken as a 'whole'.

[seiferalmasy2]

It's true that we seem to be losing a lot to modern graphics and realism. I say what we need is a mini computing apocalypse to send us back to the SNES era :)Not really, It is all about creating the game engine and technical limitations not the visuals, the pre-PS1 Final Fantasy games share a lot of their assets and FF13 designers have to create everything from scratch which is the real difference.

Graphics are exactly the reason XIII suffered from lack of towns, minigames and sidequests and the developers said so. It isn't impossible to downgrade graphics somewhat in order to add these things and half production time, but they choose not to because they want to entice the casual gamer, which is a bad idea imho.

[Skyblade]

It's true that we seem to be losing a lot to modern graphics and realism. I say what we need is a mini computing apocalypse to send us back to the SNES era :)Not really, It is all about creating the game engine and technical limitations not the visuals, the pre-PS1 Final Fantasy games share a lot of their assets and FF13 designers have to create everything from scratch which is the real difference.

Graphics are exactly the reason XIII suffered from lack of towns, minigames and sidequests and the developers said so. It isn't impossible to downgrade graphics somewhat in order to add these things and half production time, but they choose not to because they want to entice the casual gamer, which is a bad idea imho.

Since when are casual gamers the target of the ultra-HD graphics? The most successful games among casual gamers have not been focused on graphics at all.

Still no battle mechanics. Seriously, are we ever going to be able to do anything but attack in this game?

[ShinGundam]

Nowadays the emphasis is on pushing the hardware as hard as possible, in what is basically a competition to create the best graphical output on the platform. That means the competitors need to develop their own graphical engines and sometimes go through several iterations until they're satisfied that it's the best they can possibly achieve - by which time there is something better (this is what killed Duke Nukem Forever and will probably kill Gran Turismo 5. Others manage to squeeze a game out if they don't mind making gameplay/content sacrifices, such as what happened with XIII.)

Pushing hardware doesn't mean pushing the graphics alone :p. I mean
the production process of FF13 in reality isn't as productive as it should be, they end up doing a lot of prototyping during production
for example; Originally there were plans to move characters around the battlefield, It was taken out to increase difficulty.


Graphics are exactly the reason XIII suffered from lack of towns, minigames and sidequests and the developers said so. It isn't impossible to downgrade graphics somewhat in order to add these things and half production time, but they choose not to because they want to entice the casual gamer, which is a bad idea imho.
I respectfully disagree with you, because the main director Toriyama isn't known for pushing the traditional elements, just take a look at Blood of bahamut , FF12:RW and FF13. I can say that even if he released FF13 on PS2 , It will have the same structure.Towns like Eden and Nautilus are already rendered.

[Garnie]

Me, I'd be happy with a REALLY GOOD game (VII level good preferably!) that sacrifices some of the graphical detail.

Me too! I would rather stick to say FFX graphics then XIII if it meant I would be getting a better story line and game play. That's where they went wrong in XII. They spent so much time making a beautiful cg game, but forgot to put in a good story.

XIII has a good story so far, but i heard a lot of people didn't rate the ending as much. But even if it was say VII that they just released and they made it like XIII game play; such as no villages, towns or what not to explore, VII would have never been the sucess it was.

I liked FFX because of the newer graphics and the game play was enjoyable. So its not as if its not possible. Just focus on what made the Final fantasys great. That's my opinion anyway. :)

[Elpizo]

But what makes FF great? I dispise X and love XII, don't think much of VII but love IX and like VIII. Should SE make FFs like those then? Then you won't like it. But if they make it like X or VII again, I won't like it!

So you can't really say they should make it like this or like that FF. There will always be someone to complain, and people who don't like this particular one just have to deal with it and move on to another game, because the game's out and nothing will change. Pray the next one will be more to your tastes, which is debatable since XIV is already hated purely for being MMO. Or look at other games out there. There are other RPGs on both PS3 and 360 by now, so it's not as if FF is the only choice.

Or keep playing the classics, if they're that fantastic and unsurpassable. *shrugs*
Thing is, some people will start with XIII and think of it as the best one in the series, just like some think VII is the best and like I think III (NES/DS) is the best. BUt you don't see me complaining the recent FFs aren't like III.

I want crystals, jobs and floating continents, damn it! :D

As for flaws... Getting gil is just too damn hard in this one. It was tough in XII, but XIII went way overboard with it.

[seiferalmasy2]

What makes FF good?

1.Story
2.gameplay
3. Choice
4. graphics.

FF12 took away 2 and 3 a bit and didn't have 1. FF13 took away 2 and 3 almost completely.

Simple. Oh yeah and I was joking about 4.

[black orb]

>>> Biggest Flaw in the Game: No victory fanfare..:luca:

[arcanedude34]

FF13 took away (gameplay) almost completely.
Says the guy who hasn't PLAYED the damn game. They didn't take away gameplay, if they did, it wouldn't be a game. This is not an argument. This is fact. Just because you don't LIKE the gameplay (despite not playing it, hur dur) doesn't mean there ISN'T any.

And to say that FFXII took away choice is amazingly wrong. Just terrible. It has, what, the most sidequests of any FF game... ever? And, again, just because you don't LIKE them (they were pretty bland, but hey, it's your CHOICE to do them or not!) doesn't mean they're not there. And if you don't mean sidequests by "choice" please direct me to an FF with said "choice" because I'd certainly like to play it. Hell, even as far as main game choice, FFXII still wins in that you can explore most of the world from the getgo (assuming you can run from all the monsters =p).

I can't believe I'm still arguing with you, you never seem to make any sort of sense at all.

[ANGRYWOLF]

He can watch youtube videos.Some sites have players playing the game and posting long episodes of their gameplay that you can watch.

So that's more than sufficient for him to get an opinion of the game.

As for FFXII..the hunts aren't sidequests in my opinion.
The sidequests were the silly fishing game, the silly running game, trying to recover those silly chicken like things that had run off, and a few others.
All of them of dubious value with not much return imo.

You can argue that FFXII gambits took away a lot of the choice as once you knew what to plug it that was it.

As others have pointed out there are limits in FFXIII on what characters you control and what they can do.

shrugs.If that's not limiting then what is ?

If people such as arcane are satisfied with the game then what's the point in posting in a thread about its flaws ? :confused:

[Flying Arrow]

You can argue that FFXII gambits took away a lot of the choice as once you knew what to plug it that was it.



I don't know if XII is necessarily this straight-forward. Of course, I haven't played it since 2007, but I remember there were always Gambit tweaks to be made as the player leveled up characters differently, explored new areas, or learned new Gambits. I found there was often drawbacks with each gain, and crafting the perfect set of Gambit for a given region of enemies was immensely satisfying. There are, of course, easy Gambits to create (there must be in order for less patient players to make it through), but the biggest joy of it is balancing unorthodox strategies with efficiency - or at least it's a joy to my customization-loving heart.

[arcanedude34]

He can watch youtube videos.Some sites have players playing the game and posting long episodes of their gameplay that you can watch.
Which he has already admitted to not really doing either. :V

And the reason I'm posting in this thread is that, unlike our friend seifer, I'm willing to admit that this game, like every other, has its ups and downs. FFXIII has its flaws, sure. But don't think that doesn't mean I'm not going to defend it when someone is just spouting nonsense about it.

Yes, Final Fantasy XIII is VERY limited and restrictive, I never argued that it wasn't. But honestly, the gameplay was fun. I enjoyed playing the game. To say that FFXIII has "almost eliminated" gameplay is a completely laughable notion and not a very good standing ground for criticizing the game. If the argument is that you only control one character, I point you to Kingdom Hearts, or Crisis Core, or, hell, most non-RPGs.

And yeah, the hunts in FFXII are, by definition, sidequests, though I'm definitely with you on them not having any real value other than elongating the game. Not gonna get into Gambits since that's another issue entirely, but I'll just say you can turn them off if it irks you that much, and that part of the gameplay comes from managing the Gambits, as you can't just set them up and walk away for most bosses.

[Shin Gouken]

He can watch youtube videos.Some sites have players playing the game and posting long episodes of their gameplay that you can watch.

So that's more than sufficient for him to get an opinion of the game.

As for FFXII..the hunts aren't sidequests in my opinion.
The sidequests were the silly fishing game, the silly running game, trying to recover those silly chicken like things that had run off, and a few others.
All of them of dubious value with not much return imo.

You can argue that FFXII gambits took away a lot of the choice as once you knew what to plug it that was it.

As others have pointed out there are limits in FFXIII on what characters you control and what they can do.

shrugs.If that's not limiting then what is ?

If people such as arcane are satisfied with the game then what's the point in posting in a thread about its flaws ? :confused:

I'm so bored of the arguement "Gambits play the game for you". They are a tool to reduce tediousness. How much you use them is entirely up to you. My advice to people who whinge about them is to TURN THEM OFF.

FFXIII has two characters controlled by AI that you cannot turn off and have limited if any real control over. The stagger system drives the pace of the battle so much that it's really not feasable to use any command other than auto battle. Which means you only need to switch paradigms which is effectively deciding how the game plays for you.

Side quests are by definition anything which deviates from the plot so i'm afraid your arguement that hunts not being sidequests is wrong. Hunts in FFXIII don't open up until post game so therefore are not sidequests. FFXIII has no sidequests, the battles are played for you and you only need to walk in straight lines. This might appeal to you but at least understand that there are alot of people who don't want games played for them and are somewhat disapointed by the lack of actual gameplay in this "game".

[Madame Adequate]

When it comes to gambits vs. paradigms, I have no problem with a character acting autonomously in principle, what I have a problem with is that I'm playing Final Fantasy not Carnage Heart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnage_Heart). Paradigms are simple; you set them up and then the other people act reasonably sensibly according to what you've deemed wisest. You make quick, tactical decisions in a rapid fighting system where your choices have immediate impact. You don't have to sit down and bloody well program the game.

With gambits you have to sit down and go through a whole load of different possibilities and it is boring. It's not tactical, it's micromanagement. I like micromanagement (hell I play Space Empires V) but it just bored me to tears. They don't reduce tedium, they increase it. Massively.

idk, FFXII was a better game in terms of its constituent parts but they added up to not very much. FFXIII's individual parts aren't as good but the whole thing works a lot better. (And I think this distinction is why seiferalmasy just doesn't get why we're bitching at him; you can see all these individual parts but you can't see how they all work together unless you actually play the thing).

[asukaevaunit02]

Battles were fun in previous FF's because it wasn't about Buff-stagger-attack-win. But here, the only thing to do is win.

True, I'm so used to that formula with Hope/Vanille/Fang as Syn/Rav/Sab to boost party/start damage, then switch to either Rav/Sab/Com or Rav/Rav/Com. Its the easiest way to win, most fights last less than 1 minute.
Also the only aim is too win, and as fast as possible, for me this combination is best for that... but god is it repetitive... every battle exactly the same thing, buff then switch to attack, finish.




Battles should be FUN, bosses should be challenging. When enemies start to appear that are impossible to stagger and have HP in the millions, battles can last upwards of 10minutes. Every encounter feels like a chore

Is it only me that found the whole "buff-stagger-attack-win" aspect really restrictive on a party?
I wanted to change party members and roles for some fun, but in doing so made battles much longer, and much more boring (since I didn't have a dedicated synergist).
The party of Fang/Snow/Lightning just was horrible to play with, battles played out too slow, did little damage compared to my usual party... was just not fun at all... all because I didn't have any buffs, and Fang was only de-buffing enemies, but still not too helpful
To me this sucked a fair bit of fun out of the game....


FFXIII has two characters controlled by AI that you cannot turn off and have limited if any real control over. The stagger system drives the pace of the battle so much that it's really not feasable to use any command other than auto battle. Which means you only need to switch paradigms which is effectively deciding how the game plays for you.

Yes! auto-battle makes me feel like I'm less involved since the AI is smart enough to pick the right spells etc... well mainly as a ravenger.
The only times when I didn't auto-battle when I wanted to see a prettier version of a spell, firaga opposed to the AI using 5 fires....

[ANGRYWOLF]

I doubt that would change his arguments or those of the people who disagree with him.

I haven't played FFXIII and I haven't watched everything available online...I did watch one person on a site play a portion of the game.

To me you want sidequests during the game.To provide you with items you can use in the game and allow you to do something else you find entertaining if you want to take your time finishing the game. For sidequests to be delayed until after the game seems counterproductive to me.

I still don't feel FFXII's hunts were sidequests despite what others who post here may think.:roll2

shrugs.

We hear there's isn't going to be any DLC...because Kitase and Toriyama feel the game is good as it is and doesn't need anything else. Here's one of several interviews available online with Square developers confirming there won't be DLC:

No Final Fantasy XIII DLC Because It&#039;s Already 100% Massive - PCWorld (http://www.pcworld.com/article/189550/no_final_fantasy_xiii_dlc_because_its_already_100_massive.html)

IMO that in itself is a flaw...that there won't be an DLC...:mad2:

[arcanedude34]

I still don't feel FFXII's hunts were sidequests despite what others who post here may think.:roll2
But they are, by definition. You can do them during the main storyline to take a break from the narrative, you get rewards for doing them... I don't see how this is an issue. D: Even FFXIII's, to my knowledge, can be done during the main storyline (once you get to Pulse)

I don't know what to say about the complaints against the battle system. If it's that boring, then skip as many battles as you can like I did so that bosses were actually challenging and you did have to stay on your toes to prevent losing. And hell, is pushing auto-battle really any different than pushing attack like in any other Final Fantasy? You're still basically doing the same thing, it just doesn't have you choose your target. And hell, this entire argument ceases to make sense when you can SET THE BATTLE SPEED ON LOW AND IGNORE THE AUTO-BATTLE!

What is peoples' problems with having the option(!!!) to have the game take some of the tediousness away for you? It's not like you enter a battle and CAN'T do anything. And you know what? As far as I'm concerned, if you haven't PLAYED the game, your arguments against the battle system are pretty much null and void. I really don't care how many videos you watch, you can't know how a game plays if you don't play it yourself.

[Del Murder]

In terms of story the biggest flaw for me was the lack of any development for the NPCs, except maybe Serah, and lack of a true antagonist.

For gameplay my biggest gripe is that there was not very many side things to do. You don't get any extra quests until Chapter 11 and most of it is just hunting marks. It pissed me off that there was this giant gaming city (Nautilis) and YOU CAN'T EVEN PLAY THERE. Imagine going to Gold Saucer and seeing all this fun stuff happening and you can't even do any of it. So mad.

Also the areas lacked variation in terms of progression through them. They were mostly 'go straight until the next CS', (except for Taejin's Tower, which was my favorite).

[ANGRYWOLF]

arcane. As it is I won't debate it.
If you feel the way you do that's fine.It's a matter of opinion.

I felt the FFXII hunts were onerous and weren't worth the effort.

I did suggest in the general FF thread a few moths back that Square bring in some PC RPG people, maybe from Bethesda, maybe former Black Isle employees, people like that to help with FF and that idea was quickly shot down by others.
I think it would help rejuvenate the franchise though.:greenie:
just my opinion.:redface:

[Cloudane]

Fun Final Fantasy Fact: Nobody can ever agree on which are good and which are bad.

Suggestion: let each other like or dislike whatever they want - nobody owes anyone an explanation of why they feel either way about it. This also means that even those of us who kind of liked this game are fully entitled to pick holes in it when posting in a clearly marked 'flaw thread' :)

[Shin Gouken]

[QUOTE=ANGRYWOLF;2834657]
SET THE BATTLE SPEED ON LOW AND IGNORE THE AUTO-BATTLE!

This is the arguement i use when debating the gambit system with people who complain it plays the game for you. In FFXII though, battles flow smoothly without the seperate battle screen. In FFXIII battles last can and do last 5-10 minutes (depending on enemies and player skill of course) Halving the battle speed effectively can make an ordinary encounter last as long as 15-20minutes, as if they weren't long enough

[Mo-Nercy]

In FFXIII battles last can and do last 5-10 minutes (depending on enemies and player skill of course) Halving the battle speed effectively can make an ordinary encounter last as long as 15-20minutes, as if they weren't long enough
I perceive that as the strength of FFXIII. The game makes no attempt to disguise the fact that it's all about the battles and gameplay. In just about every FF besides 13 in recent times, most standard random encounters can be taken care of by just mashing Attack. In 13, particularly in battles from about Chapter 9-10 onwards, you're forced to Paradigm Shift, go for Staggers and to a degree, think ahead and strategise. Auto-Battle does take the fun out of it a bit, but I rarely use it anyway.

[seiferalmasy2]

He can watch youtube videos.Some sites have players playing the game and posting long episodes of their gameplay that you can watch.
Which he has already admitted to not really doing either. :V



Please. I have stated 100 times that that is precisely what I have done, and in HD with quite a few of them.

I must have written around 3 essay's on this game and yet to all the points you claim these faults do not exist (and yet they do seem to be repeated again and again by others as well. And let me be clearer...they do exist.) or simply say you prefer it that way.

Now you are trying to tell me what I have or have not seen/done/read. It seems you are in denial about this game, and I am not going to sit debating with you if you can't even argue the points I make, but please don't try lying about me in order to "win" the debate. This is a flaw thread, what on earth were you expecting people to be saying here? That roses sprout from FFXIII's ass perhaps? haha

[ANGRYWOLF]

any videos of the game.
It wasn't clear from the quote who said that.

People who like the game..any FF game..tend to criticize people who don't like it.

Some people

Some people who don't like the game...in my experience..seem to believe that they can somehow convince others of the righteousness of their position.That they can convince the people who like the game to suddenly dislike it.That they can convince people who like the game that it is flawed.
That's a forlorne hope.It simply doesn't happen.Won't happen.

shrugs.

The game is as it is.

We can only hope Versus is more to our taste and doesn't have those flaws some of us see.:D

[arcanedude34]

Wolf is right, you're not gonna convince anyone who enjoyed the game to dislike it, just like I'm not gonna convince you to like it. Ah well, maybe Versus will be both our cups of tea and we can dance merrily through the meadow of the Versus sub-forum together.

[crazybayman]

As I said in a previous thread, it really needs a dude with a sword. So yeah, that would be its main flaw.

It is a team effort, like FFVI. However to me, Lightening is the leader, and her attack style is awesome. For me however, the leader should be a dude with THE GINORMOUS SWORD FTW. Call me shallow, but that's a big reason why I liked Cloud, Squall and Tidus. Though, for me the attack style is tres important, and Lightning's is very cool. She's like a She-Cloud-Jedi :p

But, I personally do find it hard to identify with Lightning. Actually I find it very hard to identify with any of them. Even though they did make Snow very "real", HE STILL NEEDS A SWORD.

Oh, and there's WAY too much $hit going on screen at once during battle. I'm sure someone will have a seizure one day because of it. I can't follow who's hitting who and for what damage mixed in with which spells. Too many effects at once.

And the battles take long. Though they are fast paced, which is cool, but sometimes too fast-paced, as I can't keep track of what's going on. And yeah, too long. Fighting Bartandeleus seemed like an eternity, for instance. Even fighting the Behemoth Kings and wolf-things (combined) on the Steppe, takes quite a while.

And it spent WAY too much time in Cocoon. Now that I'm in Chapter 11, I'm finally in the Steppe, which has the most resemblance of a world map. Which is another its missing. A WORLD MAP!!! I know FFX didn't have one, which was fine. FFXII kind of had one, but not really. This one is similar to FFXII, but with so many restrictions.

And the weapons and accessories - WTF. There's nothing there that turns my crank. It seems, so far, that every weapon I find just has some funny single attribute, with no appeal. Like increasing "raise". Or maybe giving you an extra meter charge in the beginning. AND THEY'RE ALL AT LEVEL 1 WHEN YOU FIND THEM! I'm still using my suped up Gladius, Black belt and Power Wrist (or whatever it is), because I can't be arsed to spend time and money beefing up a new weapon and accessories. Likewise, all my party members are using the first or second weapon I found for them. And they ALL SUCK. Oooooo......this accessory casts protect and shell when your HP is critical.....ONCE! And this one casts....wait for it.....bravery and vigilance....ONCE!! AARRRGGGGG!!!!!

And the upgrade system leaves much to be desired. So you can just chuck random $hit into your weapon, to upgrade it? Why? How? At least in FFVIII, it was just certain things that made you able to upgrade, and there were magazines to tell you what you needed. This system of adding ooze, bones, and some other funny-named crap is just retarded.

Any many of the things others here people touched on are serious flaws such as:
- when the leader dies, that's it, its game over - OH MY GOD THIS IS STUPID
- You can't use anyone else's Eidolon except the leader's.
- Paradigms aren't saved when you switch back to a previous party. You have to spend time setting up the same paradigms, OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

Oh, and the Ark was way too long, and WAY too repetitive. I felt like I was walking endlessly through the train tracks in FFVII all over again. Which goes back to TOO MUCH TIME IN COCOON.

Back to the characters - Hope is a Mega-sissy, Sahz looks like a mega-retard in battle (what is he doing? Dancing?), Fang is too....manly and hard headed. The rest are OK, but there's still no one for me to identify with.

So, yup, there's my vent on the flaws! And there are major ones. Especially after such a long wait for this game.

[Loony BoB]

Just regarding a couple of things I noticed in your rant...

Oh, and there's WAY too much $hit going on screen at once during battle. I'm sure someone will have a seizure one day because of it. I can't follow who's hitting who and for what damage mixed in with which spells. Too many effects at once.
Have you tried changing the battle speed setting to "Slow"? Never did it myself, but I imagine it would make things a little easier to follow.

And the battles take long. Though they are fast paced, which is cool, but sometimes too fast-paced. But yeah, too long. Fighting Bartandeleus seemed like an eternity, for instance.
Were the battles really that different in length to other FF games? Keeping in mind that Barthandelus is the equivalent of Sephiroth, so his battles are about as long.

[crazybayman]

Just regarding a couple of things I noticed in your rant...

Oh, and there's WAY too much $hit going on screen at once during battle. I'm sure someone will have a seizure one day because of it. I can't follow who's hitting who and for what damage mixed in with which spells. Too many effects at once.
Have you tried changing the battle speed setting to "Slow"? Never did it myself, but I imagine it would make things a little easier to follow.

And the battles take long. Though they are fast paced, which is cool, but sometimes too fast-paced. But yeah, too long. Fighting Bartandeleus seemed like an eternity, for instance.
Were the battles really that different in length to other FF games? Keeping in mind that Barthandelus is the equivalent of Sephiroth, so his battles are about as long.
Didn't know you could set the battle speed setting. I'll give it a try, thanks.

I don't recall the battles with Sephiroth taking that long, but it was quite a while ago that I last did battle with him, so perhaps your right. I guess my beef would mainly be with the random encounters (well, they're not really random, as you can see and avoid the enemy on the screen, but you know what I mean). Some of random battles are quite long - COM-RAV-SYN repeatedly, then COM-RAV-RAV repeatedly, until the enemies are staggered or I need healing then COM-COM-COM, or MED-SEN-SYN, or something or other. For instance, Dire Flan is seems SO tedious for fighting. Maybe I'm impatient, I dunno, but overall the random battles seem much more tedious and dragged out than before. Although the idea of staggering an enemy is pretty cool.

Another thing would be the Crystarium. Very similar to the Sphere Grid (which I really liked), however it takes quite a while to get used to, and you can't really see where you are. Its like your just on some loop with orbs. You have to cursor your way along to see what abilities lie ahead.

[Loony BoB]

There were definitely some obscure battles that could have been done with faster, yeah.

I think the Cyrstarium was a great idea (in a "3D Sphere Grid, what's not to like?" way) but possibly could have been executed better.

[Cloudane]

I liked the crystarium once I got used to the controls. But my, those controls were fiddly when you're trying to get it to go in a particular direction, and returning after branching off was rather unintuitive.

I like the sound effects though, it's like your character is being flushed down the toilet :)


Back to the characters - Hope is a Mega-sissy, Sahz looks like a mega-retard in battle (what is he doing? Dancing?), Fang is too....manly and hard headed. The rest are OK, but there's still no one for me to identify with.

No hate for Vanille?

She'd be so pleased, she'd be like
:jess: OOOOOOOOOOO-------WAH!

[Madame Adequate]

The problem with setting the battle speed to slow: The score timer isn't adjusted. So it's a lot harder to get 5 stars etc.

[arcanedude34]

I think the real issue with Vanille boils down to this: YouTube - georgia F8 HQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fsj27b65mUo)

[Shin Gouken]

The problem with setting the battle speed to slow: The score timer isn't adjusted. So it's a lot harder to get 5 stars etc.

If that's true then that's a pretty big fuckin flaw.

[seiferalmasy2]

Wolf is right, you're not gonna convince anyone who enjoyed the game to dislike it, just like I'm not gonna convince you to like it. Ah well, maybe Versus will be both our cups of tea and we can dance merrily through the meadow of the Versus sub-forum together.

Sadly no, I sold my PS3 and I am now playing FFX via an emulator instead...I am getting an Xbox soon for Lost Odyssey and that is about as far as it goes really. FF as a series is dead to me, same as Resident Evil series, MGS series and Command and Conquer series.

I will await the day they change until then it is alternatives like Blue dragon, Lost Odyssey, Splinter Cell etc.

[arcanedude34]

Sadly no, I sold my PS3 and I am now playing FFX via an emulator instead...I am getting an Xbox soon for Lost Odyssey and that is about as far as it goes really. FF as a series is dead to me.
Then why bother posting about new FF games?

[Cloudane]

I loved Lost Odyssey. You can tell where the talent went from S-E when you read some of the 1000 years of dreams. Has its flaws (doesn't everything) but it's a game that screams "Final Fantasy" in a more traditional - or at least 7-10 - sense. Definitely worth playing. I hope Mistwalker come up with more of similar!

[Garnie]

The battle are really long. On some of these battles im like pounding them for 20 mins. None of the other FF's lasted that long per battle.( i am talking about random battles here lol) This is what will probably prevent me from replaying the game, unless it has a good game plus setting.

[ANGRYWOLF]

Wolf is right, you're not gonna convince anyone who enjoyed the game to dislike it, just like I'm not gonna convince you to like it. Ah well, maybe Versus will be both our cups of tea and we can dance merrily through the meadow of the Versus sub-forum together.

Sadly no, I sold my PS3 and I am now playing FFX via an emulator instead...I am getting an Xbox soon for Lost Odyssey and that is about as far as it goes really. FF as a series is dead to me, same as Resident Evil series, MGS series and Command and Conquer series.

I will await the day they change until then it is alternatives like Blue dragon, Lost Odyssey, Splinter Cell etc.

and perhaps not.

If Versus gets rave reviews..from the people who criticized FFXIII...will you change your mind.

I was recently offered an X-Box and decided against it. I decided to wait for a chance at a PS3.
X-Box just doesn't have enough rpgs to warrant choosing it over a PS3 and it doesn't seem likely to me it will have more quality rpgs than the PS3 unless microsoft goes out and buys a company that has a track record of producing them.
I only play rpgs so that is where my interest lies.

Wasn't Sakaguichi behind Lost Odyssey ?

He's really the father of FF. Unfortunate that he was forced to leave after that movie debacle..the spirits within..
The spirits within lol.:eek:

I don't know if you need a guy with a sword. A big sword.
Someone like Conan was in the books and movies. Someone like Cloud or Squall.

A woman can do the job.

Although women characters, Paine is an example of that, tend to get panned by those who prefers guys with the big sword.

I think if Snow wasn't in this game people would be even more down on it...because they need that guy as hero. A woman or women alone won't do.
I find that preference puzzling.:confused:

[seiferalmasy2]

Sadly no, I sold my PS3 and I am now playing FFX via an emulator instead...I am getting an Xbox soon for Lost Odyssey and that is about as far as it goes really. FF as a series is dead to me.
Then why bother posting about new FF games?

As far as I am aware this is the title that finally made me move on and realise SquareEnix are making mugs out of the fanbase?

So obviously this would be the one I would finally give my massive criticism of how things have been turning out. If you expect me to slam 14 and versus etc then you are wrong. Whilst I prob will give a verdict I certainly won't be investing time deciding whether to buy it or not. I am done with this series as of FFX-2 to be frank and definately now.

Maybe that will change, that depends on SE.


If Versus gets rave reviews..from the people who criticized FFXIII...will you change your mind.

I wouldn't be given a ps3 now and certainly I wouldn't buy one, not for 1 title. FF13 versus is not going to be good enough I am afraid and I think:

X-2, XII, XII-2, FF7 Spin offs, XIII pretty much confirm that.

There is no way that is suddenly going to come good if nothing is fundamentally changing and if the devlopers are stating themselves that they have moved on to trying to attract new gamers. If the reviews were raving and the bad reviews 1-7 marks were not very good reviews and if I watched on youtube and liked what I saw, sure I might look into it in another 3 years.

But currently there is 0 chance of me suddenly changing my mind about buying a ps3 or thinking Enix is gonna come good all a sudden. Anyway that is hypothetical, I think XIII versus is going to be another let down.

[Cloudane]

Wasn't Sakaguichi behind Lost Odyssey ?

He's really the father of FF. Unfortunate that he was forced to leave after that movie debacle..the spirits within..
The spirits within lol.:eek:

Nah he wasn't forced out, he resigned voluntarily and from what I understand it was an amicable parting (hence they let him get away with basically ripping off FF with Lost Odyssey).

He was certainly in charge of LO though, with Uematsu as well, so if you're wondering where the story-writing and musical talent went from X-2 onwards... there's your answer :) (Though the new guy in charge of music has improved a fair bit since XII in my opinion).

Bearing in mind it's different people, thinking about it it's probably best that they're taking FF in their own direction. Otherwise they'd just be a shadow of the guys who left and created Mistwalker and all we'd get is more remakes, -2's and milking of VII etc (not that I'd argue with a VII remake..)

There's little in terms of returning to the "good old days" that S-E can do unless the messiah eventually returns to the company (bit like what happened with Steve Jobs and Apple). The genius has left the building. Best they can do is try to inspire new forms of genius themselves. I thought XIII was a step in the right direction (not perfect, but 'good') and will probably back them for another game or two before giving up. I'm definitely itching for another FF-style Mistwalker game though.

[Slothy]

Nah he wasn't forced out, he resigned voluntarily and from what I understand it was an amicable parting (hence they let him get away with basically ripping off FF with Lost Odyssey).

He may have resigned, but it was very likely a result of the failure of Spirits Within and was a move to save some face for him rather than outright dismissing the man who created FF.


(Though the new guy in charge of music has improved a fair bit since XII in my opinion).

Sakimoto did the music for XII, and he hasn't worked for Square since Revenant Wings and Tactics A2. And I don't think I'd call the music in XIII an improvement over anything he's done. :p


There's little in terms of returning to the "good old days" that S-E can do unless the messiah eventually returns to the company (bit like what happened with Steve Jobs and Apple). The genius has left the building. Best they can do is try to inspire new forms of genius themselves. I thought XIII was a step in the right direction (not perfect, but 'good') and will probably back them for another game or two before giving up. I'm definitely itching for another FF-style Mistwalker game though.

I find it funny when people talk about returning to the good old days and bring up Sakaguchi. He hasn't actually directed an FF since V, and didn't have too much involvement with any other titles in the series after it except IX. He produced all of them up until then, but they're very much the works of the people who wrote, directed and designed them. Unless you consider the good old days to be pre-PSX era FF titles, Sakaguchi isn't the man behind the games you fondly remember.

[Skyblade]

Lack of a speed stat. This is the primary cause of the insanity that takes place during combat. Every enemy and party member fills up their gauges at the exact same point. So you go from fifteen seconds of waiting for the bar to fill to five seconds of everything happening at once. No wonder they seem hectic and confused. On the longer fights staggers, cancellations, and interrupts split things a bit, but even so, a lot happens simultaneously. Give each character and enemy a slightly different gauge length. It would make the wait less boring and the action easier to follow.

[Marshall Banana]

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m285/fofonda/finalfantasy/firehair.jpg

[seiferalmasy2]

I think the real issue with Vanille boils down to this: YouTube - georgia F8 HQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fsj27b65mUo)

My goodness I didn't see this....I mean....wow. Don't know what to say really...that is just pretty awful.

"Make silly sounds, it's a winner"

[Madame Adequate]

Oh, just thought of something that bothered me a lot. There seemed to be neither rhyme nor reason in the activation of the Cie'th stones. I did not at all enjoy having to run around for ages searching for whatever was next activated, often for a lot longer than it took to actually reach a mark once I did have a mission! In fact that's what made me give up on the missions altogether.

[Loony BoB]

Well, having a map helps, admittedly (the guide was fantastic for this), and online sources can help just as easily, I'm sure. But running around searching for things that activate battles? That's pretty much the definition of RPG.

[crazybayman]

I think the real issue with Vanille boils down to this: YouTube - georgia F8 HQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fsj27b65mUo)

My goodness I didn't see this....I mean....wow. Don't know what to say really...that is just pretty awful.

"Make silly sounds, it's a winner"
I thought it was kinda hot

[seiferalmasy2]

Well, having a map helps, admittedly (the guide was fantastic for this), and online sources can help just as easily, I'm sure. But running around searching for things that activate battles? That's pretty much the definition of RPG.

I enjoyed running around collecting cards in 8 to name one of many things.

[Loony BoB]

Yeah, that's just another example of how that translates through to every RPG. I too loved Triple Triad. :D

[Cloudane]

Oh, just thought of something that bothered me a lot. There seemed to be neither rhyme nor reason in the activation of the Cie'th stones. I did not at all enjoy having to run around for ages searching for whatever was next activated, often for a lot longer than it took to actually reach a mark once I did have a mission! In fact that's what made me give up on the missions altogether.

The stones were one of those things that felt unfinished to me. I was expecting that eventually they'd do more than glow... maybe turn back human and thank you or something. Maybe I'd have felt more inclined to do all the missions if there was some emotional reward of sorts. I'm sure if it wasn't suffering from long development syndrome it might've had something like that.

[Madame Adequate]

Well, having a map helps, admittedly (the guide was fantastic for this), and online sources can help just as easily, I'm sure. But running around searching for things that activate battles? That's pretty much the definition of RPG.

I guess I've been spoiled by games where running around the same area looking for the needle in the haystack over and over and over again isn't considered good design. :shobon:

[Loony BoB]

Welcome to the Final Fantasy series?

[Madame Adequate]

I can think of no other example in the entire series where the central sidequest has been a snipe hunt tbf. Yeah looking for some obscure Triple Triad card can be tricky and getting all the Monster Arena unlocks in X can rely on getting lucky in random encounters but they are not in and of themselves exercises in tedium, or at least not until you try to 100% things. Aside from the storyline marks in Taejin's Tower, me and Jess only went after four or five of them, because it was so incredibly fucking boring tracking the stones down and having to look through them all to find which has changed.

Writing off my criticism because it's supposedly a core element of the series strikes me as missing the point. I'm not arguing that the concept is a bad one, I'm arguing that it was badly implemented.

[Jings]

They quite clearly glow on the map if they are active. You don't have to track them all down. You will have to enter the area that they are located, yes, but then you simply have to bring up your map and see if they are active or not. I got through dozens in a fairly short time.

[Shin Gouken]

They quite clearly glow on the map if they are active. You don't have to track them all down. You will have to enter the area that they are located, yes, but then you simply have to bring up your map and see if they are active or not. I got through dozens in a fairly short time.

Still. The missions should have been side quests to do through out the plot rather than stacking them at the end.

The worst thing about them for me is that they show you where they are on the map. So you see a stone on your map and walk to it. See the mark on the map and walk to it. Fight it. Repeat.

FFXII gave you clues on where to find your mark and how to spawn it. They were included into the main game so you could tackle them during the plot if you wanted. And FFXII had marks that were actually FUN. The Trickster, Deathgaze, Behemoth King, Yiazmat and of course the legend that was Gilgamesh. Also optional battles with other bosses like hell wyrm and all the espers. None of the marks in FFXIII are remotley epic

[Future Esthar]

The weapon upgrading system was the stupidest thing ever to embrace this game.
Why not just grow one´s strenght and magic with the Crystarium.

[Shin Gouken]

The weapon upgrading system was the stupidest thing ever to embrace this game.
Why not just grow one´s strenght and magic with the Crystarium.

I'd like to expand on this also.

The very fact that any material works on any weapon means you simply farm for millions of gil to bulk buy massive quantities of the same components. Which means the hundreds of types of components are just redundent.

Another thing (which will be relevant in the next paragragh) is that you only really want one item to earn Gil (Platinum Ingots) which come from the very same enemy which offers your main source of Crystarium points. This means that there really is no incentive to fight anything except Adamantoises/Adamantortoises. Sure you'll pick a spot to regain TP and perhaps farm for dark matters at some point, but TP farming adds to the tediousness and Long Gui is simply another breed of adamantoise.

The Bazaar in FFXII required different materials for every item you wanted to make, therefore encouraging you to fight (or farm) from loads of enemies from every corner of the game, where FFXIII just lets you get it all from one place.

EDIT: I'd also like to express my dislike of the stats in this game too. Attack and Magic are the only stats you see. We know that speed, defense and magic defense are used, and presumabley accuracey and evasion are in there somewhere. But why are they hidden and why can't we increase them on the crystarium? I like being able to see all my stats, what is the point in hiding them. Bottem line - don't fix it if it aint broken

[Future Esthar]

The map rotation was also bad.
Game over when the leader dies is not bad because it made battles challenging.

[Cloudane]

The weapon upgrading system was the stupidest thing ever to embrace this game.
Why not just grow one´s strenght and magic with the Crystarium.

This is a fair point. Once again it's the game's lack of development - I was constantly expecting the "creature comforts" type stuff to have some other effect like strengthening Eidolons or making Chocobos avoid enemies more easily. So I didn't use them. Only to find that they would've been suitable for a small part of the weapons upgrades.... only!

Because hitting x on hundreds of components individually to see what they're worth in weapon exp is just sooooo much fun. Almost as much fun as buying 99 HEALs in FF1.

[Future Esthar]

Because hitting x on hundreds of components individually to see what they're worth in weapon exp is just sooooo much fun. Almost as much fun as buying 99 HEALs in FF1.


Is that irony?

I think they created this system so the player would be able to make some non linear customization.
Bad implemented though.

[Flying Arrow]

How is it non-linear customization or even an attempt at such? The weapons only upgrade in one possible way, and the components only decide how efficiently the upgrade points get used.

[Future Esthar]

It´s non linear because you can do it many different ways.It´s up to you.
Of course there are some ways better than others.

[Goldenboko]

It's non-linear because you have to find out the weapon subsets that give you Synthesized abilities, and you have to figure out what weapons are perfect or situational for each character, example, Vanille's debuff staff is great for the Death trick, but useless on many enemies that have wide debuff resistances. Or with Lightning, you could go straight to Helter-Sketler because it's clearly a strong weapon, but then you'll miss out on the fact you use her as a Ravanger for such large portions of the game, where the Axis Blade would allow her to constantly attack and stagger the enemies incredibly quickly, along with interrupting their attacks while COM's chain their Attack commands together.

Also, I lul at all the people quoting FFXII now. Square gave FFXIII due negative responses to the pure vast openness of FFXII, oh how the tables have turned.

[Flying Arrow]

Fair enough. I read the post as referring to the individual weapons themselves, which do only improve in one way. My bad. I did get sort of a kick out of weapon upgrading at times, if only to see what kinds of effects I'd earn for the users.

But I agree with FE, then. Poorly implemented.

[Future Esthar]

I think I explained why it applies even with a definite weapon.

[Madame Adequate]

Also, I lul at all the people quoting FFXII now. Square gave FFXIII due negative responses to the pure vast openness of FFXII, oh how the tables have turned.

I might not as taken was XIII as I was on day 1, but it's still vastly, vastly superior to the abominable FFXII. I know, I know, I've whined about it loads in this thread, but at least I finished XIII and I had a good time most of the way through.

[Future Esthar]

You must be kidding.What was your problems with FFXII?This game had lots of gameplay.Gameplay indeed was it´s name.

[Shin Gouken]

Also, I lul at all the people quoting FFXII now. Square gave FFXIII due negative responses to the pure vast openness of FFXII, oh how the tables have turned.

I might not as taken was XIII as I was on day 1, but it's still vastly, vastly superior to the abominable FFXII. I know, I know, I've whined about it loads in this thread, but at least I finished XIII and I had a good time most of the way through.

I don't want to get off topic with discussing XII, but XII was not inferior to XIII, in fact, quite the opposite. XII focused on gameplay, XIII focused on story. I can get a good story from watching a dvd, i want something that is actually fun to play. XIII practically plays the game for you.

Lets look at the formula. Walk in a straight line - hit pre-set encounter - beat encounter by pressing auto command - watch cutscene. Repeat.

Excuse me but that isn't a game. XII may have failed in a few places (as much as i love it, i'm well aware of the flaws) but if you wanted to finish it, you had to actually play it. Lazy smurfs today just want the game played for them

[Goldenboko]

Also, I lul at all the people quoting FFXII now. Square gave FFXIII due negative responses to the pure vast openness of FFXII, oh how the tables have turned.

I might not as taken was XIII as I was on day 1, but it's still vastly, vastly superior to the abominable FFXII. I know, I know, I've whined about it loads in this thread, but at least I finished XIII and I had a good time most of the way through.

I don't want to get off topic with discussing XII, but XII was not inferior to XIII, in fact, quite the opposite. XII focused on gameplay, XIII focused on story. I can get a good story from watching a dvd, i want something that is actually fun to play. XIII practically plays the game for you.

Lets look at the formula. Walk in a straight line - hit pre-set encounter - beat encounter by pressing auto command - watch cutscene. Repeat.

I'm not arguing that FFXII was bad, merely that FFXIII was a response to the negative response to FFXII.

FFXIII is a deep game in terms of gameplay, the problem is the game does a poor job of explaining itself and requires you to either, A. Go out of your way to read the datalogs or B. Get a strategy guide.

In fact, there are a few things, such as the synth groups, that you wouldn't know without a guide. However, I feel that many things people think where implemented badly, such as weapon leveling, was because people didn't play or spend enough time with the area of the game. I felt the same until I played with the Axis Blade, Paper Tiger, and etc. and saw the huge differences.

As for...


Walk in a straight line - hit pre-set encounter - beat encounter by pressing auto command - watch cutscene. Repeat.

This isn't rare, not even among FF's, I mean, let's look at FFX, reach Zanarkand walk to entrance->Random battles along the way-> Beat by using best attack->Cutscene. FF's are normally very linear until near endgame.

As for complaining about Autobattle, sure, Autobattle isn't necessary Chapter 5, but during difficult fights that require speed and quick changes, like Adamantoise fights, Autobattle is a huge help, because with a proper party you won't keep up with your ATB.

[Madame Adequate]

Excuse me but that isn't a game. XII may have failed in a few places (as much as i love it, i'm well aware of the flaws) but if you wanted to finish it, you had to actually play it. Lazy smurfs today just want the game played for them

Oh :bou::bou::bou::bou: no son. I've played X-Com. I've played Hearts of Iron. I've played Transport Tycoon. I've played Fallout. I've played Dwarf Fortress. Do not mistake me for some easy mode casual. I've forgotten more about games than most people will ever know. I dislike FFXII because it's a soulless game whose component parts do not add up to a worthwhile whole. It has nothing to do with how much I can be bothered doing; I didn't play it for thirty minutes and think "Nah this is balls", I played it for just shy of 30 hours before I realized how much fun I wasn't having and stopped.

Oh and double irony making that statement in defense of the first FF where you can say it plays itself.

[Future Esthar]

But it has a lot of gameplay and a lot of funny dungeons and things to do.What did you dislike?

[Shin Gouken]

Excuse me but that isn't a game. XII may have failed in a few places (as much as i love it, i'm well aware of the flaws) but if you wanted to finish it, you had to actually play it. Lazy smurfs today just want the game played for them

Oh :bou::bou::bou::bou: no son. I've played X-Com. I've played Hearts of Iron. I've played Transport Tycoon. I've played Fallout. I've played Dwarf Fortress. Do not mistake me for some easy mode casual. I've forgotten more about games than most people will ever know. I dislike FFXII because it's a soulless game whose component parts do not add up to a worthwhile whole. It has nothing to do with how much I can be bothered doing; I didn't play it for thirty minutes and think "Nah this is balls", I played it for just shy of 30 hours before I realized how much fun I wasn't having and stopped.

Oh and double irony making that statement in defense of the first FF where you can say it plays itself.

Your opinion of FFXII is invalid until you have finished it.

Gambits (For the last time) are a tool to remove tediousness and are their for you to use to suit your style. If you relied on them to play the game for you then no wonder you didn't enjoy the game. They can be turned off which is the end of this arguement because AI in FFXIII cannot. And even with gambits, FFXII allows you to play outside of battling where FFXIII is still just guiding you down straighlines and pre-set encounters.

If you didn't enjoy XII, fair play, it wont appeal to everyone. But where flaws are concerned, FFXIII is one giant flaw from start to finish. FFXII has its merits and should be apreciated for them. Funny how alot of people are suddenly apreciating XII after this monstrosity

[Future Esthar]

I still like FFXIII alot.But to me FFXII is the second best FF.
FFXIII falls too short of VII.

[Shin Gouken]

I still like FFXIII alot.But to me FFXII is the second best FF.
FFXIII falls too short of VII.

Ive got a lot of complaints with VII too, but despite my complaints with it, i still recognise all it's qualities and apreciate why people like it as much (still somewhat over-rated though i think) But it does excel in quite a few areas.

To me though, FFXIII doesn't excel in any particular area. In fact, every area, even things that are ok, are just... ok and still fall short of the standard we as gamers expect.

FFXII is riddled with flaws (or simply has elements that are disliked by certain types of gamer) but to all the people that knock it, i just wish they would see it's qualities and understand the appeal. But they don't.

[Goldenboko]

I don't see how you could defend gambits and bash auto-battle. Double standard much?

[Shin Gouken]

I don't see how you could defend gambits and bash auto-battle. Double standard much?

You said it yourself Mr.Golden Boko ;)

FFXIII opted for a faster paced battle. Unfortunatley, there is simply far too much going on at once that playing without the auto command just isn't possible. With haste, you can just barely select auto-command + select your target before the bar is full. You simply can't manually select 6 commands without wating entire turns.

The counter arguement for this is the same one i use to defend the gambits. By lowering the battle speed you can play by manually selecting commands (in both XII and XIII) however in XIII, battles can last up to 6-7 minutes. Halving the battle speed effectively doubles this. This isn't a consequence in XII however which has several speeds to choose from

[Goldenboko]

Halving battle speed doubles battles in FFXII, you never had any long battles in FFXII? Some HP totals in FFXII were similar to that of FFXIII only in FFXIII you are much more powerful. Your argument is really flawed as decreasing battle speed increased battle time in FFXII just as it does in FFXIII just as it does in any game. Hell, having wait on in FFXII made battles take forever. For most battles in FFXIII if it took you 7 minutes you're doing it wrong.

[Shin Gouken]

Halving battle speed doubles battles in FFXII, you never had any long battles in FFXII? Some HP totals in FFXII were similar to that of FFXIII only in FFXIII you are much more powerful. Your argument is really flawed as decreasing battle speed increased battle time in FFXII just as it does in FFXIII just as it does in any game. Hell, having wait on in FFXII made battles take forever. For most battles in FFXIII if it took you 7 minutes you're doing it wrong.

*Sigh*

I'm going to have to disagree again.

The Final boss in FFXIII has a combined 16million+ HP including all three forms. In FFXII Vayne had 400,000 HP including his 3 forms.... so really, what are you talking about?

The strongest enemies you meet during the storyline in FFXII only average between 10,000-20,000 HP, where as in FFXIII they average 400,000-800,000 HP. Not to mention that your damage output in XIII just plain sucks until you can stagger the enemy. When confronted with several enemies who each need to be staggered, 7-8 minutes is a respectable time to beat them. I certainly wasn't "doing something wrong".

[ANGRYWOLF]

yiazamat, and omega...

I haven't been able to beat zodiark.Tried several times, the last time today.

Not my favorite FFXII.FFXII isn't the best or even the second best.Structurally it's the worst FF in the modern era...

I do think though the designers for FFXIII tried to compensate for the flaws in FFXII..they just seemed to have gone too far in certain respects..and because of technical issues left out certain things they really shouldn't have ommitted from the game.:mad2:

[Goldenboko]

Halving battle speed doubles battles in FFXII, you never had any long battles in FFXII? Some HP totals in FFXII were similar to that of FFXIII only in FFXIII you are much more powerful. Your argument is really flawed as decreasing battle speed increased battle time in FFXII just as it does in FFXIII just as it does in any game. Hell, having wait on in FFXII made battles take forever. For most battles in FFXIII if it took you 7 minutes you're doing it wrong.

*Sigh*

I'm going to have to disagree again.

The Final boss in FFXIII has a combined 16million+ HP including all three forms. In FFXII Vayne had 400,000 HP including his 3 forms.... so really, what are you talking about?

The strongest enemies you meet during the storyline in FFXII only average between 10,000-20,000 HP, where as in FFXIII they average 400,000-800,000 HP. Not to mention that your damage output in XIII just plain sucks until you can stagger the enemy. When confronted with several enemies who each need to be staggered, 7-8 minutes is a respectable time to beat them. I certainly wasn't "doing something wrong".

I'd say, you were, because I came across very few monsters that took me 7 minutes, monsters that absolutely had to be staggered, often could be easily snuck up upon, and even if you failed to sneak on them, switching between Commandos and Tri-Disaster (or they're respective dual forms) would take care of the problems quite easily. 7-8 minutes isn't a "respectable time" it's an average time.

As for, "damage output is low until staggering" again, sounds like a personal problem, aka, doing it wrong xD

The FFXII storyline was fairly easy, but as ANGRYWOLF said, Yiazamat, Zodiark, Omega, and the list goes on, FFXII had more than it's fair share of sidequests with monsters that reached high HP levels that you would have fun hacking your few thousands at for quite some time.

I'll also take my halving battle speed argument accounts to both rebuttal as undisputed. :P

[finaloblivion]

i agree with you, boko. bashing enemy HP levels in XIII doesn't really hold too much water because A) your characters reach MUCH higher degrees of stats in XIII and B) thus your damage output is much greater on average, even when the enemy isn't staggered. even enemies in chapter 13 that don't rank in the "SUPER HARD POST GAME" range of monsters only take me about 1.5 to 3.5 minutes to beat, an 3.5 is pushing it. and that's also without a preemptive strike. using a COM to maintain a chain gauge then switching to tri-disaster or even mystic tower then bumps up chain gauges extremely fast, then after a stagger thats really all she wrote. XII relies on completely different systems and stats than XIII, as the battle systems are extremely different. in my opinion, comparing the two in any other respect other than that XIII follows XII in the numbered entries is just kinda weird. like i said, totally different systems, totally different games.

[Cloudane]

Regarding XII it was "technically good" - very open and explorable, clever gambit system etc. But the story and characters sucked and it wasn't all that exciting to look at. In XIII it's the other way around. I think the story and characters are more important, but I'd settle for something in the middle!



Because hitting x on hundreds of components individually to see what they're worth in weapon exp is just sooooo much fun. Almost as much fun as buying 99 HEALs in FF1.


Is that irony?

It's sarcasm. Irony would be if I'd posted it 99 times or something :)

[Slothy]

I don't see how you could defend gambits and bash auto-battle. Double standard much?

There's a big difference between an AI system that you set up and maintain yourself allowing you to control the overall strategy of your party, yet still requires regular input in battles because of how varied and challenging a lot of enemies can be, and a system that gives you almost no say in what your characters do, encourages not making choices with the one character you do control, and let's you make a choice between a handful of overall party strategies. One has a surprising amount of depth even when you let the game make most of the decisions for you, the other isn't much better than a game of rock paper scissors in that you have about three or four real choices of strategy in any battle and the best choice is always obvious and usually the same one you've made in every other battle.

And the most damning part of the whole thing is that when it comes right down to it, if you don't like using the AI in XII, you could do the smart thing and choose not to so you feel more involved (for example, I always kept one character totally gambit free, and regularly gave commands to the other two in harder battles). If you don't like how mind numbingly boring and automated the battle system is in XIII though you're screwed. There is no option to turn it off and control your characters. All you get is a strategically shallow battle system that does everything it can to have the player make as few decisions as possible.

[ShinGundam]

a system that gives you almost no say in what your characters do, encourages not making choices with the one character you do control
I don't understand what you mean by this sentence ? it seems to me you are describing the gambit system, comparing between FF12 and FF13 is meaningless because FF13 don't use MP points which encourage me to use different Classes,Paradigms and abilities while FF12 , it takes too long to unlock the most basic commands. It takes at least two hours just to unlock the ability to automatically attack enemies that attack you and there are some commands that you can miss entirely should you fail to find a hidden treasure chest or slay the right monster. FF12 only encourage players to grind from very beginning rather than progressing. Maybe i am wrong or over exaggerating :eep:.


One has a surprising amount of depth even when you let the game make most of the decisions for you, the other isn't much better than a game of rock paper scissors in that you have about three or four real choices of strategy in any battle and the best choice is always obvious and usually the same one you've made in every other battle.
No one is denying that FF12 offers more freedom and choices on micromanagement level but your average player spends his time to find right way to control partners commands, also you have unlimited time to slowly refine a macro system while the other one forces you have to make decisions during battles while time is running. I think FF13 sacrificed freedom and micromanagement for sake balance for all classes, IMO, FF13 is interesting because of the value of each classes combination, for example what is the value of com/com/rav vs a rav/rav/com ?


All you get is a strategically shallow battle system that does everything it can to have the player make as few decisions as possible.
All you get from FF12 a poor pacing battles without gambits, if you turn off the gambit system, the battles become REALLY boring. The gambit system is pretty much the only thing that makes FF12's battle system unique or interesting - everything else is just the most basic, vanilla turn-based combat imaginable. If FF13 is shallow then what is FF12 ?

[Flying Arrow]

^ The gambit system - a complete overhaul of what FF battles had been up to that point - is the only thing that separates XII's from other battle systems?

If XIII is shallow (and it pretty much is), then XII is much deeper. In XII, the player has complete control of the companion AI via the gambit menu; XIII uses auto-battle in every situation, and often not particularly efficiently. The mix-n-matching of roles (RAVRAVCOM or SYNSABRAV, etc) is fun during the action, but the control of two-thirds of every battle goes to the computer's estimate of what the best choice is, not a conscious decision on the player's part to think "I want my SYN to cast Protect at the beginning of battle" - which, I want to clarify, is different than thinking "I want my SYN to cast Protect at the beginning of battle along with all of the other unnecessary buffs it automatically tosses out."

And if you turn off the gambit system, you're turning off a huge chunk of XII's gameplay, so I don't think it's fair to compare XII and XIII while dismissing one of the main things that makes XII so unique from the rest of the series. Turning off a gambit like Vivi22 is one thing, but turning it off because you dislike it is different completely, and is more a reason why one would dislike a game rather than a criticism of how it stacks up to XIII's systems.

[Raistlin]

I will say that XII > XIII. Perhaps only marginally overall, but XII was at least a step in the right direction plot-wise, whereas XIII was a disappointing reversion to lazy story telling and immature, overly-simplified plots and villains.

XII did have its own problems though (the biggest one simply being pacing), and I can't picture myself playing either game again, at least not anytime soon.

[Madame Adequate]

I found XIII to be a successful attempt at what XII had tried, and failed, to do. Whereas XII just had a programming minigame at its heart, in XIII you set the overall tactical direction of your party, which I found a hell of a lot more fast-paced, more rewarding, and downright more fun than I ever found XII to be.

[ShinGundam]

@Flying Arrow
Because the order of cast buffs depends on how much information you have on the enemies your fighting in the Bestiary (which you gain both by simply? fighting them and discovering it manually, and by forcing it out with Libra). The thing is, they go for buffs directly related to the enemy before the more generic buffs (Haste, Protect, etc.). I didn't have a problem with Prioritize the magics because the Bestiary information is accessible at any time in the battle or after battle via datalog and all magic are costless, Now you aren't responding to specific situations, but more that you are switching your tactics depending on the changing tide of battle.


Turning off a gambit like Vivi22 is one thing, but turning it off because you dislike it is different completely, and is more a reason why one would dislike a game rather than a criticism of how it stacks up to XIII's systems.
I don't dislike it, in fact I love it but I think the battles without it are boring, In FF13 i can't survive without Paradigms which is totally different thing.

Ultimately, I refuse to compare both system because they are totally
different (:

[Shin Gouken]

I found XIII to be a successful attempt at what XII had tried, and failed, to do. Whereas XII just had a programming minigame at its heart, in XIII you set the overall tactical direction of your party, which I found a hell of a lot more fast-paced, more rewarding, and downright more fun than I ever found XII to be.

XII didn't fail at what it tried to achieve, it gave you complete contol over the AI of your team so you didn't have to babysit characters you were too lazy to control. XIII gives you a number of set strategies to choose from and forces you to constantly shift them. But shifting paradigms is all you do.

As for the AI in FFXIII, it's completley flawed, as AI is in most games.

Here are some examples.

Medics will heal you out of critical but no further until debuffs have been removed. Fail. Some debuffs would be better suited removing as priority. But more than this, if you are expecting an enemy to ready his bigboy attack, you wont survive while medics simply remove negative status ailments.

Synergists will continue to cast the same buff on a character who is having that buff removed every turn. A tank will have protect recast on them every turn as the enemy auto dispels it with every attack, therefore making a synergist useless.

Commandos will attack random targets. If i fight a Long Gui and stagger one of the legs and bring out three commandos, two of them only have a 1 in 3 chance of attacking the staggered leg.

The list goes on. The fact is, AI is not perfect and having a system which is dependant on it fails.

Before the FFXII counter arguements start, i would like to remind people that FFXII is not reliant on Gambits. Even if it was, you can change Gambits at a moments notice. You can also overwrite gambits with manual commands on ALL THREE characters.

FFXII gives you the freedom to simulate a paradigm shift system. Character set ups can be changed whenever you want. Characters can be equipped as Sentinals, Medics, Synergists, Sabatours, commandos or ravagers and switched at a moments notice. The gambits can be tweaked to prioritize whichever buffs you want. Whichever way you look at it, XII is a superior system to XIII.

[Slothy]

a system that gives you almost no say in what your characters do, encourages not making choices with the one character you do control
I don't understand what you mean by this sentence ?

Hmm, it should have read more like this: "a system that gives you almost no say in what your party members do, and encourages not even making choices with the one character you do control." Basically, FFXIII gives you almost no say in what your two AI teammates do beyond controlling what role they're in, which is little more than telling them to spam magic, spam healing, spam physical attacks, etc. On top of that, the fact that auto-battle is not only pretty much required, but will make the same decisions you would 99% of the time means you aren't even selecting abilities for the one character you do control.

The only decisions a player makes in 99.9% of battles is what paradigm to use, and you can fly through the game using the same three or four tops. Most battles are literally the player sitting there mashing X which is about as far from interesting as I could imagine any game getting.


while FF12 , it takes too long to unlock the most basic commands. It takes at least two hours just to unlock the ability to automatically attack enemies that attack you and there are some commands that you can miss entirely should you fail to find a hidden treasure chest or slay the right monster. FF12 only encourage players to grind from very beginning rather than progressing. Maybe i am wrong or over exaggerating :eep:.

I don't recall missing any major gambits or abilities while playing through FFXII and I didn't use a guide. And you can't really argue that it takes too long for FFXII to give you gambits because it takes all of two hours, when up until that point you really had no need for them, and I was almost 5 hours in before FFXIII even gave my characters distinct roles. The first five hours literally had no strategy beyond attack and use the occasional potion. And I was more than 14 hours in before my characters had even learned enough abilities to warrant varying my strategies and paradigms much at all. FFXIII is possibly one of the slowest games I've seen when it comes to letting you actually play with the battle system a bit; pretty ironic given that the battle system is the entire game.


while the other one forces you have to make decisions during battles while time is running. I think FF13 sacrificed freedom and micromanagement for sake balance for all classes, IMO, FF13 is interesting because of the value of each classes combination, for example what is the value of com/com/rav vs a rav/rav/com ?

I'm pretty sure I've been clear on my thoughts on this, but FFXIII doesn't really have the player making fast paced decisions (if you want fast paced decisions, try giving commands in some of XII's harder battles with the system set to active rather than wait). In between mashing auto-battle you'll alternate between three or four decisions tops. And despite all of the flashy camera angles and characters attacking at the same time, you have plenty of time to react to things because most of your time is literally spent sitting there doing nothing.

As for valuing the classes, comparing a combination such as com/com/rav and rav/rav/com has little value. The latter will stagger enemies more quickly while the former will stagger enemies more slowly, and actually splits your efforts between multiple enemies since the other com won't attack only the party leaders target.


All you get from FF12 a poor pacing battles without gambits, if you turn off the gambit system, the battles become REALLY boring. The gambit system is pretty much the only thing that makes FF12's battle system unique or interesting - everything else is just the most basic, vanilla turn-based combat imaginable. If FF13 is shallow then what is FF12 ?

I wasn't advocating turning off Gambits in XII. But sadly, so many people wrongly state that the game plays itself. It will do that, but only if you set it up to, and I get sick of people who blame the game for it. If you don't like all three characters having Gambits then the simple solution is to turn them off on at least one character, but many neglect this. Even more puzzling is that these same people will argue that FFXIII is more fun and involving when it has the player making fewer decisions both in and out of battle.

As for Gambits being the only thing that makes XII interesting, I have to disagree entirely. What makes it interesting is the sheer number of viable ability, and equipment combination's that can completely change the way your party plays, as well as challenging battles that require the use of strategy and good tactics to be successful. XII has a tremendous amount of depth in it's various gameplay systems which let the player explore and have fun within the limits of the system for dozens of hours. XIII has you choose between six roles, but if you don't include a little of everything in your paradigms you'll likely find yourself screwed which pretty heavily limits your viable options for most of the game.

EDIT: I have to agree with everything Shin Gouken said about XIII's Ai as well. I knew I was in for a fun ride fairly early on when I had a synergist casting a thunder resistance buff against an enemy with no thunder attacks despite my having scanned it and fought it numerous times already. They actually refused to cast more useful buffs like protect until they finished that.

[Goldenboko]

I found XIII to be a successful attempt at what XII had tried, and failed, to do. Whereas XII just had a programming minigame at its heart, in XIII you set the overall tactical direction of your party, which I found a hell of a lot more fast-paced, more rewarding, and downright more fun than I ever found XII to be.

XII didn't fail at what it tried to achieve, it gave you complete contol over the AI of your team so you didn't have to babysit characters you were too lazy to control. XIII gives you a number of set strategies to choose from and forces you to constantly shift them. But shifting paradigms is all you do.

As for the AI in FFXIII, it's completley flawed, as AI is in most games.

Here are some examples.

Medics will heal you out of critical but no further until debuffs have been removed. Fail. Some debuffs would be better suited removing as priority. But more than this, if you are expecting an enemy to ready his bigboy attack, you wont survive while medics simply remove negative status ailments.

Synergists will continue to cast the same buff on a character who is having that buff removed every turn. A tank will have protect recast on them every turn as the enemy auto dispels it with every attack, therefore making a synergist useless.

Commandos will attack random targets. If i fight a Long Gui and stagger one of the legs and bring out three commandos, two of them only have a 1 in 3 chance of attacking the staggered leg.

The list goes on. The fact is, AI is not perfect and having a system which is dependant on it fails.

Before the FFXII counter arguements start, i would like to remind people that FFXII is not reliant on Gambits. Even if it was, you can change Gambits at a moments notice. You can also overwrite gambits with manual commands on ALL THREE characters.

FFXII gives you the freedom to simulate a paradigm shift system. Character set ups can be changed whenever you want. Characters can be equipped as Sentinals, Medics, Synergists, Sabatours, commandos or ravagers and switched at a moments notice. The gambits can be tweaked to prioritize whichever buffs you want. Whichever way you look at it, XII is a superior system to XIII.

I can go over all sorts of things wrong with this. "The Commando attacking randomly fails because it's out of my control", this is in your control, the control of knowing when to use what Paradigm. You're looking at the entire thing on a microscopic level, which the game isn't meant for, it's meant for a macroscopic, don't use Cerberus when there are multiple enemies, instead, Cerberus will shine when you get that adamantoise on the GROUND (lol reference), instead, focus on group based paradigms until then, like Relentless Assault, Smart Bomb, and Delta Attack.



As for valuing the classes, comparing a combination such as com/com/rav and rav/rav/com has little value. The latter will stagger enemies more quickly while the former will stagger enemies more slowly, and actually splits your efforts between multiple enemies since the other com won't attack only the party leaders target.

...it doesn't seem like you don't know the battle system in and out. Each role strengths different parts of your team. Having more COM's out increases the damage EVERY CHARACTER does based off multiplier that depends on your role level and number of COM's. Having Sentinels decreases damage taken by a percentage depending on the number of Sentinels and their role levels. RAV's will increase the rate you bring up the stagger bar, not just because their attacks bring it up more, but because each Ravager increases the ENTIRE PARTY'S overall effectiveness at bringing up the stagger bar.

I don't understand how anyone can say there is no strategy involved, situations in the game are very... situational. Hordes of small enemies make me break out COM's because the damage output needs to be beefed up, but spread out, more difficult hordes, require Multi-Sentinel and Medic backups, to be able to save suddenly near-dead party members. However, 2 medium strength enemies will make me want to have COM/RAV/RAV setups with buffs and debuffs to be able to focus on individual enemies. High HP and damage output monsters like the turtle families (lulz), benefit from, ironically enough, party's similar to the small hordes, because the COM's will be grouping up now, however, 999% stagger is necessary to make best use of the full COM'd party, switching to leading Light or Sazh is often done before battle.

[seiferalmasy2]

I don't know why people are arguing which system is better in XII and XIII, they were both awful. XIII being the very worst. Short of taking the controller away from you I don't know how they plan to go one better.

In XII you shifted a few programming terms about a few slots, and I spent most of the game with 2 gambits, attack and cure. With XIII they have taken as much away as possible.

No need to argue which is better than the other when you are comparing a rotton fart with a festering turd.

[Goldenboko]

I don't know why people are arguing which system is better in XII and XIII, they were both awful. XIII being the very worst. Short of taking the controller away from you I don't know how they plan to go one better.

:lol: No. :)

[Imperfectionist]

I'm not very happy about the fact that when you buy stuff it's stupidly expensive, but then to sell it back you get peanuts! It wouldn't even be that bad if Gil was easier to get in the game but it really isn't.

I've got loads of Scarletite and I thought, 'oh nice, this usually costs 100,000 Gil it must sell for loads' but it only sells for 7000 Gil!

What an outrage.

[NeoCracker]

The biggest issue in combat is it's not a wide appealing thing they went with. In all reality, the battle isn't even fought in the battle screen. The battle is fought almost entirely before hand in setting up the paradigms, while all the actually combat is just picking between them.

I enjoyed doing this honestly, but the appeal, as i said, is kind of short range.

[crazybayman]

I'll tell you one flaw this game has: it isn't gripping. I haven't played the game in a week, and I couldn't care less. This is despite the fact that I finally got out of the boredom that is Cocoon, and am finally down on Pulse which is much better. Therefore, you'd think I'd be eager to progress the game to see what's next in the vast world of pulse, but, well........meh. Its f#@kin' boring.

And I absolutely LOATHE the weapon / upgrading system. I will say this, I by far prefer XII's weapon system, since some people have turned this thread into a silly "I think XII is better than XIII, here's why, I am right you are not", and vice versa argument. :roll2

[Skyblade]

If I was comparing weapon systems, I'd have to compare this games to X's, which also featured an upgrading system, and which worked out way better. Both systems suffer from ridiculous overdesign (and are basically useless until end-game/post-game), but X's had a much better result.

You already have the Crystarium for stats, you shouldn't need the weapon system to be just stat upgrades as well.

[Cloudane]

I'll tell you one flaw this game has: it isn't gripping. I haven't played the game in a week, and I couldn't care less.

This is the problem I had with XII (it took me 6 months to complete it for this reason). Didn't seem as bad with XIII but I have to admit it didn't have me rushing back to the console immediately after work and keeping me playing until 3am to see the next development like X and VII did for example. Had its moments e.g. certain Snow/Hope and Vanille/Sazh moments but after those were resolved there was less to be concerned about.


If I was comparing weapon systems, I'd have to compare this games to X's, which also featured an upgrading system, and which worked out way better.

Yes, like it'd actually tell you what stats were going to be added, and the names of components made some level of sense. Much better than random monster body parts or circuitry that apply amounts of exp that you can't even find out until you press x.

I never want to go through getting the Celestials ever again though. Even with the patience of a saint you'd still want to smash the controller in a fit of rage at that chocobo racing game or the butterflies.

[Madame Adequate]

Oh god yes FFX failed beyond comprehension at minigames except for Blitzball. I hate hate hate HATE the lightning dodging, it just takes so damned long.

[Mo-Nercy]

Oh god yes FFX failed beyond comprehension at minigames except for Blitzball. I hate hate hate HATE the lightning dodging, it just takes so damned long.
A lot of people would say Blitzball was epic fail too. Not me though. I loved getting Wakka's celestial and pretty much hated everyone elses (though I've never had a problem with the Chocobo game).

[Madame Adequate]

I did the chocobo race in 0.0 the very first time. I have never replicated that feat - on subsequent playthroughs I have to spend a loooong time doing it :(

And Blitzball is awesome. Anyone who says otherwise is a True Failure^tm.

[VeloZer0]

I thought I was in the minority in enjoying blitzball. Unfortunately I did not enjoy the whole scouting players aspect of it. My winning seasons came to an end when the other teams started to draft players that could score on my goalie from half court. :(

[Loony BoB]

I hated the chocobo game because I could never get the ultimate weapon.

[Shin Gouken]

I hated the chocobo game because I could never get the ultimate weapon.

Same. I was lucky that my bro was more skilled at it. My bro also did all the tedious Blitzball crap to get Wakkas weapon. If i wanted to play sports or racing games then that's what i'd bloody do =/

[Cloudane]

I would say anyone can get 0.0 on that chocobo race, and believe me I know it feels absolutely impossible for the first, like, full day or so at it. It requires fairly obscene amounts of practice, luck and concentration.. the combination does eventually happen at the same time - but we're generally talking a few days of on/off attempts - in long enough sittings that you don't keep going backwards with your practice level but with enough breaks that you don't lose concentration. And the difficulty is making it through those few days (or more specifically, your console/controller making it through those few days).

[Imperfectionist]

I stopped playing the chocobo game in the interests of my sanity.

[crazybayman]

I didn't find the chocobo game bad at all. During each playthrough it would take me anywhere from on the first few tries to an hour or so to get 0.0.

The butterfly catcher on the other hand, invokes pure rage :mad2:. I still haven't beaten that one. Well I have, but it was at the beginning of the game, before you can actually win Kimarhi's sigil. MAN!!! :mad2:

The lightening dodger looked so stupid and hard that I didn't even try.

Getting the Jupiter Sigil and Wakka's Celestial Weapon was kind of tedious, and long, but certainly doable without spending days at it, if you play a blitzball game or two each chance you get.

But, you know, at least X had mini games, even if some of them did suck.

[Future Esthar]

Blitzball-Shows it´s a very bad idea to mix football and rpg.
What is the fun in trying to escape from a bunch of adversaries and then comming to a halt just to calculate some statistics?
When I play football on pc I like to run with my players non-stop doing fast decisions,not halting and thinkng on statistics.
On blitzball you keep running,stopping,running,stopping.This gets boring.
I prefer a million times the Triple triad(which is still boring.I prefer ff9 card game).

Concerning FF12 I think it is hated by rpg hard-core fans which play them since childhood and likes to keep doing battles.
People like me who grew with platformers and FPS would love it.
To me,the gambit is a minor issue when compared with the gameplay,graphics,3D imersion and storyline.
People complain but one STILL needs to THINK on the gambit order,so it is not lazy.It is pre-strategy.

[Cloudane]

Or to implement a sport in a game targeted towards the type of people who are generally not into sport. It could've made me interested, but I think that initial bull:bou::bou::bou::bou: game against Luca gave me a permanent negative attitude about the game.

So to get Wakka's sigil (basically required for beating Penance which I decided to do once) I just used Jecht shot to score once and then used the hide behind the goalkeeper trick and watched TV. Well actually I watched somethingawful's "Let's play FFX" which was hilarious. I also exploited all the necessary reload tricks to get the required items to appear. So it wasn't so bad that way.

Seems the games we find easy or difficult vary but there's always at least one we can't stand!

Lightning jumping I actually found quite easy, there's a crater you can stand in where the lightning strikes very regularly in a once-twice pattern so that was over quickly.

Auron's was part of the "capture ten of every monster in the game" routine required for Penance, which was bloody awful and not something I'd care to put myself through again.

Yuna's was easy, beat Belgemine, cool, just the type of sidequest I like ;)

Rikku's was easy enough too, mildly tedious but far from bad.

Tidus's = ARGH

And Small Ronso's I couldn't even be bothered with. Useless character in battle anyway and my brief attempts at the butterfly game let to a conclusion of "screw it, here I come Penance" (I whooped his shiny metal ass into next week of course)

[Future Esthar]

The butterfly game wasn´t as boring as blitzball though.
But it was nearly impossible.

[Skyblade]

I found the butterfly game ridiculously easy once I ignored the screen, and did all my movement based on the minimap. Easier still if you compare the minimap to a map of the butterflies.

But we should get back on topic, this isn't the X forum.

[Future Esthar]

Exacly!Let´s get on topic please!

[NeoCracker]

Exacly!Let´s get on topic please!

I hearby declare this post the least on topic post of the thread.

[VeloZer0]

Blitzball-Shows it´s a very bad idea to mix football and rpg.
What is the fun in trying to escape from a bunch of adversaries and then comming to a halt just to calculate some statistics?
When I play football on pc I like to run with my players non-stop doing fast decisions,not halting and thinkng on statistics.
You just complained that a sports mini game included with a turn based RPG is broken down into turns and stats.


People complain but one STILL needs to THINK on the gambit order,so it is not lazy.It is pre-strategy.
Setting up the gambits the first time was fun, the only problem was that I set them up once at the start of the game and didn't feel a need to change them for the most part after that.

[Skyblade]

Flaw: Telling me I received a new item, every time I get an item.

36 Chipped Fangs to 37 Chipped Fangs does not require an exclamation point screaming in my face, ok?

Getting an additional accessory, or finding a new type of item, THAT is when you bounce up with the "New Item Found" message, ok? Not when I'm collecting another of something I already have dozens of.

[Loony BoB]

I think a great way to do that would be to not show it as part of a post-battle screen but instead to show it as a little bubble (a la Windows bubbles) at the bottom right of the screen as you walk around just after the battle. I think that would allow you to keep track of things without accidentally skipping past the post-battle screen, but also negating the need for an exclamation mark type thing.

[Future Esthar]

You just complained that a sports mini game included with a turn based RPG is broken down into turns and stats.
I know there is a running component but it´s difficult to maintain since players basically corn you without even needing to touch you.

[Miriel]

The literal linearity of the game drove me nuts. I eventually figured out that turning off the minimap helped with that weird feeling of claustrophobia within a giant space. It's like there's this enormous amount of PRETTY! everywhere but you can't even explore most of it. Until you get to Pulse and it's like omfg, space everywhere.

I didn't like how after the fact, you had to go back and read details on a cut scene you JUST went through to find out wtf was going on. The scenes themselves should speak for themselves.

The bad guys in this game are super super lame.

Missed towns. Missed just exploring. Music was ok. Better than FFXII but it didn't sound like Final Fantasy music.

Found a lot of the design elements to be silly. Like the last bosses. It's like they sat around saying, "Hey, what's the most extravagant, ornate weirdo looking thing we can come up with? That'll be the last boss!" It reeks of trying too hard.

[Digital Phoenix]

I'm right before the last set of bosses in chapter 13. Finally, I'm near the end. I had to push myself through this game. I really have to stop doing this. The same thing happened with Assassin's Creed 2.

Final Fantasy XIII is a massively repetitive, disappointing game. If they condensed it to 20 hours or so, I would have more appreciation for it, but I got tired of the battle system mid-way through the game. And that's all you do in this game, along with watching cut-scenes.

It's like a 6.0/10. It's a beautiful game with some excellent voice work and music, but it is bogged down by the tedious nature of the gameplay.

I haven't finished it yet, though. I probably will tomorrow. Finally. I'll never look back.

For the record, I didn't like III DS and XII either, much more than XIII, especially III DS. I invested over 20 hours into the game and waited for it to get better, but there is absolutely no substance to the gameplay. It's one of the worst games I have ever played. XII at least looked nice.

X, on the other hand, is the best PlayStation 2 game I have ever played. 9.5/10 for sure. I loved it. Too bad none of the other Final Fantasy games I have played have followed suit.

Okay, so I've beaten two (well, I will by tomorrow), played a total of four, and have only liked one. I suppose I should try IV DS, VI, and IX, as they seem to be the most popular ones, especially VI and IX.

[seiferalmasy2]

Vi is vastly overrated imho, though it does boast some very good gameplay, a passable story, a good villain. I would start with IX, believe me, it will NOT disappoint. My faves are in order: VII, X, VIII, IX, VI, IV, XII, X-2, XIII

With a big jump between IX and VI. I don't know enough about V and the rest.

In terms of gameplay it would be:

X, VII, VIII, IX, VI imho

I do find it difficult to separate my top 4 at times.

[skillzboy4]

Eventually these great graphics will hit a bottleneck where they arent perceived as amazing anymore and I pray for that day because when it arrives graphics will no longer be able to sell a game.

lmao.. this day might be coming soon.. hopefully it holds true.

[Future Esthar]

Hopeful also.

[champagne supernova]

I made a thread about this, but really don't understand why the linearity freaks people out so much. Yes, you can't run around everywhere. Wow, big deal. I can't run around everywhere in Metal Gear Solid 4 either. It must also be a bad game! And in all honesty, since when has a Final Fantasy game not been linear. I will admit XIII lacks any illusion of choice until Chapter 11 (more so than in MGS4 even, before someone uses that against me), but it's not like any other Final Fantasy has allowed much in the way of exploration until mid or end game. For the first 6-7 (maybe even 10, I haven't played this in ages) hours of VII, you are stuck in Midgar, literally on a straight path. You then head onto the World Map where you go to Kalm, for some more straight-line stuff. Then through the tunnel and onto Junon (unless you stop at the Phoenix tower place, whatever it's name is). Across the sea to Costa de Sol. To Coral. To Golden Saucer. Even if you wanted to explore, your choices of destinations were limited because of natural barriers that you were unable to cross, or engine problem (by Cosmo Canyon).

Basically, until you get the airship, your choice is limited to wandering around the World Map or going back to towns you've already visited it. Again, not quite as extreme as XIII, but it's more of an illusion than actual freedom of choice. I'm using VII because it was my first FF and lots of people use it as their benchmark. But the same holds for VIII & XII (haven't played IX). X was literally a straight line because of technical limitations. X-2 was probably the first FF to actually give gamers some true freedom because it allowed you to choose what mission you tackled and when.

But I don't think it's the linearity that actually bothers people. I think the whole loss of relaxed towns where you can do fun random things and play side-quests and chat to NPCs is where people have an issue. I will agree that XIII does not have these things. And I enjoy these things. VIII is one of my favourites because there are so many side-quests, some of which are so minute and unknown (for example, the hot dog ladies son in FH). So I would have liked to see them in the game.

But I cannot say that this is a flaw against the game either. Up until Chapter 10, there needs to be this run for the goal mentality because of the story arc behind the characters. And for me, it worked. I finished this game a couple of hours ago after starting it on Thursday, and it really did manage to grip me. By removing distractions, I was able to focus on the story. XII failed in this regard for me because the story never had a chance to grip me - by the time I got to my destination I had already forgotten what was going on. I honestly reckon the Sandsea ruined the game for me, but that is another discussion.

And the game favours style over substance. I can admit that. But I don't see why that is a flaw either. There are many movies that favour style over substance which are very enjoyable. Yes, the battle system does have some kinks in it, and the AI can do some silly things (I will get into that when I write my flaws), but it was good fun. I notice that people are complaining that there are too many things happening at a time. Pay attention or slow down the battle speed. And whatever you do, don't play WipeOut on anything above the slowest speed, otherwise there may be cranial explosions. XIII's battles were exciting, they were fun, and yes, you might be nothing more than a glorified general providing broad strategies, but it looked good and it felt good. And I don't see why the AI automatically choosing to do what I was going to do ANYWAY is a bad thing! I would call that progress.

One of the things that I think is really cool about this game is how everybody has their own ideas of how to fight battles, with different weapons, paradigms and strategies. I will say that XIII favours aggression over caution in many cases, but there is such flexibility in the battle system that it allows for the individual gamer to create his own preferences instead of a fixed 'best' method.

I enjoyed the story. Every single character was fighting for what they thought was right and would save the World. And they truly developed as characters. None more so than Hope. At times early on in the game, I really wanted to jump into the game and slap his whiney face. But he grew as a character and became quite cool. And to be honest, I can't name a favourite character. They each had their moments. Even Vanille.

Okay, so that's my rebuttal to some of the flaws. Now here are my flaws.

Map - especially in the massive Steppe in Gran Pulse. Please stay fixed on North. Do not rotate with me. It confuses me and makes me sad.

Paradigms not Saving - that is something that will start to grate me immensely as I now move post-game.

More paradigms in battle/ability to change paradigms - this also began to irritate me when I needed more than 6 paradigms. I worked a way around it, but still frustrated me. Really should have allowed some way to change them in battles.

Inability to change characters in battle - really, if they had gone with the point above, then they could've added this in. Along with the ability to change the party leader.

Party leader dead = GAME OVER - No. Stupid idea. Don't ever do that again Square-Enix.

Ridiculous non-boss enemies near the end - Okay, some of the battles on the way to the final boss in Chapter 13 may be harder than the actual boss. And I don't want to fight people with 1 million HP or bosses I JUST FOUGHT repeatedly either. Fortunately, I was quite quick on the field map so managed to dodge quite a few of these, but I don't know what they were thinking.

Inability to move characters in battles - My number one gripe with the game. There's a story to go with it as well. Hope Estheim against Alexander. I choose someone to be a Sentinel so they can take the hits from old Alex boy. Alex's have some range on them. Hope decides to stand next to my Sentinel to destroy my battle strategy (and this of course is a timed battle, so I can't get around it). Repeatedly. I was unimpressed that I had to spend 15-20 minutes of my life fighting the same Eidolon because I could not move this guy 3 meters. Or the AI couldn't do it. He was healing. Why, oh why, would a healer choose to stand next to the person who's job is to get hit on the head?

Inability to provide some broad strategy for non-AI characters - I am not a rabid hater of the gambit system, nor do I love it. But it did provide some control over what the AI would do. I would have liked the paradigm system to have greater depth so you could possibly customise what spells to go first, what priorities etc. Maybe have it as it currently is, then one with broad ideas (i.e. defensive buffs followed by offensive buffs for my synergist), and then something very detailed below it, allowing gamers to take it as deep as they want.

Only party leader can summon/do cool stuff - Yeah. Some shoulder button to do a summon or give the AI some commands. Not too difficult Squenix.

So those are my gripes with the game. As I've spent a lot of time with it of late (46 hours I think in 5 days), these things should have become quite noticeable. To be honest, these things only started to begin to irritate me in chapter 12 & 13. And (apart from the Hope Estheim incidend) nothing that hampered my experience much at all.

Someone here already said it, but I will repeat it. XIII's individual components may be flawed, but the way it works as a whole makes the game enjoyable and fun. Something I did not feel when I played XII. And it is gorgeous. If graphics aren't your thing, fine, but I played GTA the other day for the first time in a while last night, and I honestly thought I had gone to the previous generation of consoles. It is beautiful.

And to my final point. XIII is it's own experience. It should be judged on what it is attempting. It is not attempting to be this massive, open-ended experience. And if that's what you want, play Oblivion or FallOut. It doesn't have a massively complex and detailed battle system. But if that's what you want, there are games like Valkyria Chronicles to suit your needs. But I am not going to say Oblivion is a bad game because it doesn't look as good as XIII or has a very weak and dull plot. I haven't played Valkyria Chronicles (because I can't find a copy to buy), but I am sure it is going to fall short of some of FFs standards. That doesn't make it any worse a game. A game is not about the individual components, it is about the entirety of the game, and XIII in its entirety works for me.

And that is why I cannot understand why some individuals who have not actually played the game can make broad, sweeping statements about it. It's like someone talking about what sex feels like while still being a virgin. Yes, you can read up about it as much as you like (even watch it being done), but you can't describe what it feels like until you've done it.

[Loony BoB]

But this is the 'flaws' thread. :p It's the place people go to in order to criticise the parts of the game they found lacking or unenjoyable.

EDIT: That's in response to the earlier bits you mentioned, not the flaws, obviously. :D

[champagne supernova]

EDIT: That's in response to the earlier bits you mentioned, not the flaws, obviously. :D

I know, but I think those 'flaws' aren't actually flaws, more preferences. The stuff I mentioned were definitely flaws though.

[Shin Gouken]

I made a thread about this, but really don't understand why the linearity freaks people out so much. Yes, you can't run around everywhere. Wow, big deal. I can't run around everywhere in Metal Gear Solid 4 either. It must also be a bad game! And in all honesty, since when has a Final Fantasy game not been linear. I will admit XIII lacks any illusion of choice until Chapter 11 (more so than in MGS4 even, before someone uses that against me), but it's not like any other Final Fantasy has allowed much in the way of exploration until mid or end game. For the first 6-7 (maybe even 10, I haven't played this in ages) hours of VII, you are stuck in Midgar, literally on a straight path. You then head onto the World Map where you go to Kalm, for some more straight-line stuff. Then through the tunnel and onto Junon (unless you stop at the Phoenix tower place, whatever it's name is). Across the sea to Costa de Sol. To Coral. To Golden Saucer. Even if you wanted to explore, your choices of destinations were limited because of natural barriers that you were unable to cross, or engine problem (by Cosmo Canyon).

By your logic, every game is linear because you are aiming to reach the end. FFVII wasn't linear even while in Midgar. You had places that you could explore, even if you couldn't advance in a different direction. Choices you made would affect scenes much later, hidden things were available to find, mini-games popped up occasionally - basically it was far from straight forward.

FFXIII IS straightforward. There is nothing to do except move forward, fight what you are told, and fight it more or less how you are told. Again i say it's fine for people to enjoy it, but i still find it shocking when people can't comprehend why other people don't enjoy it.


And the game favours style over substance. I can admit that. But I don't see why that is a flaw either. There are many movies that favour style over substance which are very enjoyable. Yes, the battle system does have some kinks in it, and the AI can do some silly things (I will get into that when I write my flaws), but it was good fun. I notice that people are complaining that there are too many things happening at a time. Pay attention or slow down the battle speed. And whatever you do, don't play WipeOut on anything above the slowest speed, otherwise there may be cranial explosions. XIII's battles were exciting, they were fun, and yes, you might be nothing more than a glorified general providing broad strategies, but it looked good and it felt good. And I don't see why the AI automatically choosing to do what I was going to do ANYWAY is a bad thing! I would call that progress.

Again, it's preference so i understand your point of view on this. But i still wouldn't call it progress. Battles are designed to be flashy which sums this game up perfectly. Which is different and obviously people enjoy that, but removing large chunks of options in battle (Blue magic, stealing etc) and limiting strategies and customization is not progress. A different approach that seems to have worked for a lot of people, but not progress, just as many people were disapointed at the lack of strategy in favour of faster paced flashier battles.



Inability to move characters in battles


Inability to provide some broad strategy for non-AI characters

Two very good reasons to argue the battle system was not "Progress"



And that is why I cannot understand why some individuals who have not actually played the game can make broad, sweeping statements about it. It's like someone talking about what sex feels like while still being a virgin. Yes, you can read up about it as much as you like (even watch it being done), but you can't describe what it feels like until you've done it.

I agree with the majority what said person says (in regards to XIII anyway) but until he has experienced the game himself noone is going to take what he says seriously so i wouldn't worry

[Slothy]

I made a thread about this, but really don't understand why the linearity freaks people out so much. Yes, you can't run around everywhere. Wow, big deal. I can't run around everywhere in Metal Gear Solid 4 either. It must also be a bad game! And in all honesty, since when has a Final Fantasy game not been linear. I will admit XIII lacks any illusion of choice until Chapter 11 (more so than in MGS4 even, before someone uses that against me), but it's not like any other Final Fantasy has allowed much in the way of exploration until mid or end game. For the first 6-7 (maybe even 10, I haven't played this in ages) hours of VII, you are stuck in Midgar, literally on a straight path. You then head onto the World Map where you go to Kalm, for some more straight-line stuff. Then through the tunnel and onto Junon (unless you stop at the Phoenix tower place, whatever it's name is). Across the sea to Costa de Sol. To Coral. To Golden Saucer. Even if you wanted to explore, your choices of destinations were limited because of natural barriers that you were unable to cross, or engine problem (by Cosmo Canyon).

Shin Gouken kind of hit on this though I disagree with what he said about VII (or the other games) not being linear. It certainly was linear, but the problem with XIII is that there is nothing to the game other than run, fight, run, fight. Except maybe allocating CP and customizing weapons, but allocating CP was almost as linear as the maps and weapon customization had all of the depth of a puddle, and isn't really required.

As much as previous games may have been linear, there was a lot more to do in them. You could explore towns, hunt for all of the treasure in dungeons, and a lot of them even offered some mini-games and side quests along the way instead of just at the end. So they may have been fairly linear, but there was more to them, and I never found that little diversions like exploring towns killed the pacing of those games. Square implemented a game design choice in XIII that solved a problem that didn't really exist in previous games, and implemented it by stripping the game down to one element: the battle system. So the people who can stand the gameplay in XIII can be broken down into two groups, those who loved the battle system and those who didn't care for it. I think it was the worst battle system in an FF ever to be honest, which means as a game it fails miserably with me.


But I don't think it's the linearity that actually bothers people. I think the whole loss of relaxed towns where you can do fun random things and play side-quests and chat to NPCs is where people have an issue. I will agree that XIII does not have these things. And I enjoy these things. VIII is one of my favourites because there are so many side-quests, some of which are so minute and unknown (for example, the hot dog ladies son in FH). So I would have liked to see them in the game.

Precisely, but it's also that the lack of these things only highlights the fact that the player literally just runs down a straight path. And aside from battle that's the entire game. Giving people things to do may have been partially a distraction from the linearity, but it's one that worked and was fun without ever getting in the way of the story. Literally running down a hall is far more distracting for most people because it's boring. No one enjoys just running from point A to point B with nothing to do in between, which is what everything outside of battle was.


But I cannot say that this is a flaw against the game either. Up until Chapter 10, there needs to be this run for the goal mentality because of the story arc behind the characters. And for me, it worked. I finished this game a couple of hours ago after starting it on Thursday, and it really did manage to grip me. By removing distractions, I was able to focus on the story.

If you actually felt that way then more power to you, but justifying the linearity with the story was just a way for them to pull the wool over the eyes of the player. There's no reason they couldn't have written the story a little differently to allow for visiting town, and less linear dungeons without greatly impacting the overall story. And like I said before, I don't think having these things negatively impacted pacing in any previous FF. So what we got was one of the most boring gameplay ideas ever to solve a problem that didn't exist to begin with and and hoped no one would call them on it if they wrote a justification into the story.


And the game favours style over substance. I can admit that. But I don't see why that is a flaw either. There are many movies that favour style over substance which are very enjoyable.

We're not talking about a movie, we're talking about a game. Games can have some flash to enhance the experience, but if the underlying gameplay isn't engaging then you might as well be watching a 40 hour movie. So you may have enjoyed the gameplay, but anyone who didn't would find the game terribly lacking.


And I don't see why the AI automatically choosing to do what I was going to do ANYWAY is a bad thing! I would call that progress.

Again, we're talking about a game here. I went through pretty much the entire game so far (I'm on Chapter 11) using three paradigms. That would be the equivalent of any other FF having attack, fire, and blizzard spells with pretty much every enemy in the game being weak against one. That wouldn't be a very deep game. Nor would it be very engaging for the player since they'd quickly find the weakness and spam it, perhaps healing on occasion. Having the AI do things for you removed the need for the player to make more than three decisions in any given battle. Hell, you didn't even have to know the enemies weakness to be effective in battle. Just pick a few ravagers and a commando to stagger the enemies and they'll figure it out on their own. Switch to a healing paradigm when you get hurt. You might throw in some buffs and debuffs if you feel like though even those weren't necessary for most of the game. So the game literally came down to run through a hallway, get into a battle and make two or three sweeping decisions and let the AI figure out weaknesses or decide the best tactics to use at any given time. There was no real strategy to it, or need for the player to quickly make decisions or react to the battle on anything but the most basic macro level.

Taking control away from the player, particularly in a turn based battle system, is rarely a way to make the game more interesting. Hell, it didn't even make the battle system feel faster since I spent most of my time sitting there not doing anything and a pretty high number of battles tended to last for several minutes or more.


Inability to move characters in battles - My number one gripe with the game. There's a story to go with it as well. Hope Estheim against Alexander. I choose someone to be a Sentinel so they can take the hits from old Alex boy. Alex's have some range on them. Hope decides to stand next to my Sentinel to destroy my battle strategy (and this of course is a timed battle, so I can't get around it). Repeatedly. I was unimpressed that I had to spend 15-20 minutes of my life fighting the same Eidolon because I could not move this guy 3 meters. Or the AI couldn't do it. He was healing. Why, oh why, would a healer choose to stand next to the person who's job is to get hit on the head?

That's one thing that really bothered me at times as well. Area of effect spells and abilities have absolutely no place in a game where you can't control character position. Either make them hit everything or just a single character or enemy for every attack. I have no idea what they were thinking on that one.


And to my final point. XIII is it's own experience. It should be judged on what it is attempting. It is not attempting to be this massive, open-ended experience. And if that's what you want, play Oblivion or FallOut.

I don't think anyone who doesn't like it is trying to say it should be a massive open-ended experience. What we are saying is that they restricted the gameplay to the point where it stopped being interesting. It took things too far in the direction they chose to go and the result wasn't interesting or fun for a lot of people.


But I am not going to say Oblivion is a bad game because it doesn't look as good as XIII or has a very weak and dull plot.

You know, I seem to be in the minority here, but I didn't find FFXIII to be overly impressive graphicly. It wasn't terrible by any stretch but the art style didn't grab me, and from a purely technical standpoint it didn't do anything really impressive. Recent games like God of War III (anyone not impressed by those Titans is a fool), Uncharted 2, and even stuff that's a little older like Killzone 2 or the Gears of War titles all did things that were visually and technically more impressive. I would even say that aside from the character models and the obvious repetition of textures and different types of areas that I like the graphics in Oblivion more.

[Cloudane]

Shin Gouken kind of hit on this though I disagree with what he said about VII (or the other games) not being linear. It certainly was linear, but the problem with XIII is that there is nothing to the game other than run, fight, run, fight.

This. Exactly this. Most games are linear to some degree as they have a beginning, middle and end. Even X-2, when you look behind all the optional missions and the possibility of a different (or extended) ending the core of it has a specific "linear" set of hotspot missions that you have to go through in order to progress through the game.

Of course, VII was far *less* linear as there were a lot of optional place and things to do. Take Nibelheim for instance, if you wanted to you could actually just walk straight through it IIRC. But most people decide to have a mooch around the mansion, and end up picking up optional character Vincent, check out Tifa's house and pick up her limit break etc. There's the whole optional Yuffie arc as well.

When people complain about linearity I think they mean the complete lack of ability to stroll even slightly off the path even if it's just to listen to NPCs talk a load of irrelevant nonsense. It adds to the feeling of immersion when you can do that, and it's lacking somewhat in XIII.

It's not missing completely - you can auto-talk the people as you're fighting along the path in Cocoon, you can have a good wander around in Nautilus and there's your time on Pulse. I wouldn't say there's enough of it though, and the lack of open towns that you can explore and chat to people and raid their houses for elixirs etc is probably the main key to it feeling "linear".

Nautilus actually gave me a lot of hope for this aspect in the game. You actually could have a good wander around and see what people had to say, pan your camera around and admire the pretties, go and 'talk' to chocobos etc. Unfortunately once you got past it, that was it again until Pulse.

[champagne supernova]

You know, I seem to be in the minority here, but I didn't find FFXIII to be overly impressive graphicly. It wasn't terrible by any stretch but the art style didn't grab me, and from a purely technical standpoint it didn't do anything really impressive. Recent games like God of War III (anyone not impressed by those Titans is a fool), Uncharted 2, and even stuff that's a little older like Killzone 2 or the Gears of War titles all did things that were visually and technically more impressive. I would even say that aside from the character models and the obvious repetition of textures and different types of areas that I like the graphics in Oblivion more.

Did you not find the Sunleth Waterscape at times breathtaking? Or some of the areas in Pulse. Even Eden itself (and inside Orphan). The only place I was unimpressed was in the Ark.

I agreed that XIII is extremely linear. But Vivi22 got the point that most FFs have been mostly linear with an illusion of choice. Yes, XIII could have opened up some paths. But I don't think the biting criticism regarding the linearity is warranted and there is some solid rationale (outside of the technical complications) of making it like this.

And progress isn't perfect. But what started out in XII is improving and I have great hopes for Versus XIII (which was always my favourite out of the 2 games - I actually thought XIII was going to be a shocker).

I think Versus XIII might get the balance spot on and become one of the best games ever made. Hopefully.

And Metal Gear Solid 4 was also a lot of style over substance. I would say it is a better game than XIII as well (mainly because there was some diversity which XIII lacked), but it can work very well.

[Flying Arrow]

When people complain about linearity I think they mean the complete lack of ability to stroll even slightly off the path even if it's just to listen to NPCs talk a load of irrelevant nonsense. It adds to the feeling of immersion when you can do that, and it's lacking somewhat in XIII.


Yes, thank you. It seems the entire internet is misunderstanding the meaning and purpose of this word, using it as a vague criticism for... god knows what. Even as a description it's as pointless as saying that FFXIII is 'visual'.

The problem with FFXIII isn't that it's conceptually linear - like every other game on the planet that forces the player to get to level 2 by completing level 1 - it's that its gameplay literally takes place as a 70-hour line with very, very few obstacles to make it interesting. Battling takes place outside the line in another facet of gameplay and thus doesn't count as an obstacle because the line remains intact once it's over, and it's back to holding the joystick up. This is like if Super Mario Bros. had no jumping or obstacles, made the player stomp on Koopas in a second gaming ring unrelated to the scrolling area, and then dropped a 10-minute cutscene once Mario reaches the flag. Of course Super Mario Bros. and FFXIII are completely different games and shouldn't be compared like this, but all I'm saying is that, with any genre, levels need to have a purpose. Mario levels exist to give players an excuse to run and jump and whathaveyou and have fun doing it. FFXIII's areas exist to... nothing, except be a bland arena for increasingly challenging fights and, under the guise of being an adventure, to make the player go straight forward for 30 tedious minutes until the next cutscene. There's no other actual practical purpose to them as they don't challenge or functionally involve the player. Most areas in the game are just holding up the poor player from getting to the parts that have actually been designed.


I agreed that XIII is extremely linear. But Vivi22 got the point that most FFs have been mostly linear with an illusion of choice. Yes, XIII could have opened up some paths. But I don't think the biting criticism regarding the linearity is warranted and there is some solid rationale (outside of the technical complications) of making it like this.

I also don't buy this illusion of choice notion, as it seems a way for critics (or apologists) of FFXIII to misrepresent other games in the series in order to puff up XIII's chest (professional reviewers have been doing this and it's disgusting). What makes the other FFs good games (or at least interesting ones) is not this illusion of choice that FFXIII is so honest to do away with, but that they are designed, like any game, to make the player DO stuff. FFVII's world requires players to take a specific path to the end credits, but every stop on that path involves the player in figuring out a puzzle, exploring the level, customizing his team, or learning more about the plot or setting by actively seeking out information (talking to NPCs or looking through nooks and crannies). FFVII may be conceptually 'linear' but it's not actually a featureless line. Debates about its merits as an RPG aside, its mechanics and features actually exist for a reason.

[seiferalmasy2]

It isn't just the strolling off the path not being allowed, it is the fact you can't even return to these areas. When people compare it to X they fail to mention this and the fact in X there were deviations like Stolen Fayth and Remiem temple....or explorable towns and nice diversions like Cloister of trials, Blitzball....

We all know FF's are linear in a metaphorical sense, but this is in a literal sense for a LOT of the game.

Actually one thing I think FF games could really do with sorting out most is their lack of puzzles. Cloister of trials was a step in right direction. Breath of Fire 3 is a masterpiece of gameplay and FF games should definitely make some good and difficult puzzles more often.


Wow, big deal. I can't run around everywhere in Metal Gear Solid 4 either. It must also be a bad game!

yes it was downright terrible actually.

[Slothy]

Did you not find the Sunleth Waterscape at times breathtaking? Or some of the areas in Pulse. Even Eden itself (and inside Orphan). The only place I was unimpressed was in the Ark.

I really wasn't impressed by any of it so far to be honest. And since so far is Part of the way into Chapter 11 I've seen a lot. There was some nice texture work here and there, but most of it was fairly flat and uninteresting. Many of the areas really seemed to be little more than flat ground, walls, etc. with some pretty flat textures over top and all of the somewhat impressive looking stuff rendered off in the distance out of reach of your characters. The actual traversible world had no depth or life to it, and the engine itself seemed to be lacking in areas like lighting, particle effects, etc. I think the best way I could describe the whole thing was that it left me feeling like I was playing a PS2 game with a higher resolution and more polygons.

Compared to games like Uncharted 2 which were filled with gorgeously detailed buildings, jungle filled with grass and trees and all manner of other plant life, great lighting and some of the best animation I've ever seen and FFXIII just seemed wanting by comparison. And there was nothing in the game that could hold a candle to climbing and fighting along the body of a massive, fully rendered and animated titan in God of War III. I'm not trying to say FFXIII looked bad because it didn't, but when compared to the wonderfully rich and detailed worlds in these other games I have to wonder what Square spent the last five years making if not art assets.


And Metal Gear Solid 4 was also a lot of style over substance. I would say it is a better game than XIII as well (mainly because there was some diversity which XIII lacked), but it can work very well.

I won't deny that the MGS series throws a lot of cutscenes at people, so it'd be easy to think that it's got a lot of style without a lot of substance to back it, but I will argue any day that every game in that series had some incredibly deep and rewarding gameplay that lived up to all of the hype the games get. That series is hands down one of the best ever from the perspective of gameplay and game design.

[champagne supernova]

We all know FF's are linear in a metaphorical sense, but this is in a literal sense for a LOT of the game.

How are they linear in a metaphorical sense? I think the main game is perfectly linear with distractions (some of which are fun and enjoyable) attached to the side. Again, illusion of choice, and again, a game should firstly and mostly be judged by the main game and not the diversions. If you want a non-linear game, Bethesda and Bioware have you covered.

I am not arguing that FFXIII is not linear. It is. And I would have liked more parts of the game to be like Nautilus. To slow it all down, let the characters grow more organically. Maybe have some mini-games here and there. That would have been nice. But they needed to sacrifice it for technical reasons (and possibly because of the vision of the project), and that is a sacrifice which I think was worthwhile. The linearity doesn't hamper the game in my opinion. There's another game which was also fairly linear which I loved. Vagrant Story. And I just realised why XIII reminds me so much of it. Structurally it is actually quite similar. Probably why I might like it.




Wow, big deal. I can't run around everywhere in Metal Gear Solid 4 either. It must also be a bad game!

yes it was downright terrible actually.

Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots (ps3) reviews at Metacritic.com (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/ps3/metalgearsolid4gunsofthepatriots?q=metal%20gear%20solid%204)

I like the green 94 sitting on the left of the green "Universal acclaim". I also liked doing some counting of the reviews. 31 100's, 18 others above 95, and 16 more above 90. Out of 82 reviews. Doing some quick maths: 37.8% of reviewers gave it 100, 59.76% gave it 95 or higher, and 79.27% gave it 90 or higher.

Clearly awful. And a little bit off the topic, did you play this one?

EDIT:

it's that its gameplay literally takes place as a 70-hour line with very, very few obstacles to make it interesting.

I did it in under 50 hours. Including when I left it on when I was cooking. And messing around on Pulse. After 70 hours, you must have been horrendously over-powered, possibly making the game seem very easy.

You can argue that every game is just a movement from cutscene to cutscene. MGS4 is one of them and judging by Metacritic, it is still a very good game. VII (or was it Resident Evil or something like that that VII took its inspiration from) created this sort of game: you solve a challenge, after which you progress to a cut-scene to advance the story. There are games that build the story in play (such as Bethesda and BioWares stuff), but most games do not.

@Vivi - I agree with you that MGS4 is a better game than XIII (I said it in there). And we are arguing the same point. The gameplay in MGS is more diverse and interesting than XIII. But it follows a very similar structure. Get through an area, watch a cut-scene. No real distractions. There are different ways to get through an area, but this is a stealth game, so you could argue that it is synonymous with different ways of fighting battles in XIII.

[seiferalmasy2]

Yes, yet another game which gets by on fanbase, graphics, name and magazines clearly in the pocket of big business, my how they must all laugh at you as they cash their cheques. I could sit here another hour and list 100 things wrong with MGS4 but that would be offtopic. However when you have a story as BAD as MGS4 and cutscenes lasting well over 30 minutes, no more evidence of suck is required. Someone should have told Hideo this is a game, same way they should have told FFXIII team same thing.

MGS4 won't be played in 10 years time, it will be looked back on as a joke. MGS1,2 and 3 will however, survive the test of time. MGS1 already has. The thing is,the more intelligent you are, the more you suss out MGS4 as the joke it really is. They should use MGS4 as a test of intelligence in schools, those that come out liking the game should not be allowed into university or even a dole queue haha ;)

-----

and yes I did play it, it was another game I was duped with. After that, X-2, XII I wasn't about to make another mistake and as soon as I saw the same mindless drones hyping XIII up with crap reviews I knew what it was about. Then I had a goooood hard look into XIII, and that's when I finally realised the 'game was up' for PS3 and FF, possibly also MGS.

Certainly, Resident Evil, Command and Conquer, Final Fantasy, MGS, have all gone the same way, all flash, tons of flaws, great graphics and a lovely fanbase.....

[champagne supernova]

The thing is,the more intelligent you are, the more you suss out MGS4 as the joke it really is. They should use MGS4 as a test of intelligence in schools, those that come out liking the game should not be allowed into university or even a dole queue haha ;)

Well I enjoyed MGS4. I also did honours in Economics and Finance in the same year and am currently doing a Masters that will be used to time the market. Clearly intelligence and enjoyment of an over-the-top video game are mutually exclusive characteristics in human beings.

Because obviously Final Fantasy VII-X and Metal Gear Solid 1-3 have these vastly complex stories that rival the great classics. I can see how Squall's moping around because of his abandonment issues rivals with the mass absurdity of war explored in Catch-22 and The Good Soldier Schweik. How the treatment of Cloud and Tifa and Aeris' relationship is a striking metaphor for the complexities of love in the real world, clearly surpassing the portrayal by Tolstoy in Anna Karenina. How Cloud's dealing with his past shows the idiosyncrasies of human nature and conscience even better than Dostoevsky did in Crime & Punishment. Clearly videogames are the new intelligent art form of the future, where highly educated academics will write essays about the artistic beauty of games, detailing how every tiny minute placement of pixels adds to its greatness.

If you want an intelligent story, read a novel or watch a good movie. They can be fun, but they can also be difficult.

If you want to have fun, play a game or watch a Hollywood blockbuster. They are most likely to be fun, but they're not going to add much thought to your life.

[seiferalmasy2]

No thanks, I will just stick to decent games like VII-X ,Lost Odyssey, Breath of Fire III whilst maintaining that those who liked XII, XIII, X-2 or MGS4 need their heads testing :jess: and seriously I do actually wonder how it is possible anyone could rate them any more than 6/10.

Anyway I have done on this you will be glad to hear, although I will be making 1 megapost somewhere and linking to it from time to time, that should save us all the endless circles.

[finaloblivion]

ok....you just mentioned LOST ODYSSEY, in which the gameplay throughout most of the game is incredibly linear. the world map is certainly not explorable, and sure, you can explore some towns and talk to people, but the dungeons are exactly the same as FFXs or XIIIs....walk down pretty much a straightforward path, stray and little bit and find an item maybe, keep going, cut scene, fight a boss, enter a town, more cut scenes,etc....not to mention that lost odyssey is not really true HD gaming at all. XIII is.

i'm not saying in any way that i dislike lost odyssey i think it's great, but really using it as a true "this is what it should be like" comparison is going too far. sure...there are towns and mini games and whatnot, but like i said it's a lot easier and more practical to do when you're not working in FULL HD.

also that was Sakaguchi's middle finger to SE at the time and saying he could start over and do pretty much the same thing elsewhere while guess what....the FF series has been there done that. like i said in the other thread they wanted to do something different, not make it exactly like the prior entries in the franchise. these are seperate entities, not direct sequels that are supposed to share systems and formulas

[seiferalmasy2]

I named other games, and obviously I didn't use just 1 to claim that that one was perfect. You chose that as the one you would attack...

Any case, again, FFXIII is being attacked for far more than its linear nature. Far more and yet....we keep coming back to this linear question. Linear is 1 flaw with this game, but I have listed around 15 or more serious issues from an RPG point of view, even more serious than XII on the whole.

[finaloblivion]

true i did pick that one title as the one to make my argument because it retains many of the qualities that the game your bashing does as well. whether those are flaws are up to PERSONAL PREFERENCE, not fact. and to say we need our heads tested because of our personal preference? dang man, that's just ignorance right there. over 90% of the world believes in some sort of religion or higher power to guide them though their lives, and i personally don't believe in religion, but does that mean i'm going out telling that 90% of the world to get their heads tested?! god no. to each their own.

meh, some see linearity as a flaw, while others quite enjoy that quality. and that doesn't make us lesser people for that fact. i personally don't really enjoy total openness throughout a game where the pacing of the story is completely thrown off a lot of the time. i like my stories, and i like story driven games.

this'll be the last time i post in this thread, because you said you would stick to the threads you enjoy and i should do the same. i was only trying to clarify my point. however, it's been made many times but you don't seem to understand the personal preference part of that point so shrug...guess that's how it'll be.

[Cloudane]

I loved Lost Odyssey precisely because it *was* a "been there done that" game. The past couple of Final Fantasies, whilst hailed by some as brave bold new directions to make it more 'interesting', have (in my opinion) been pretty supportive of the saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I like this one a fair bit, but I loved "Final Fantasy" for what it was and would ideally have preferred it not to change (apart from ditching random battles, even that is just a personal preference). FFX proved that it didn't *need* a fully explorable world map you could get lost on to be a truly awesome game - though it'd have been icing on the cake.

Again, linearity is probably the wrong way of describing the issue. It's more that there's nothing to do other than fight or gaze at the scenery. L.O. had a lot to do... talking to people, watching those very moving dreams, solving puzzles, treasure hunting, completing mini quests, or just enjoying flying around in the Nautilus later on (even though it wasn't proper oldschool airship exploration, it was a step in the right direction).

[seiferalmasy2]

I don't mind people liking the linear nature of it, I do mind people who think that is how it should be ...to be forced on everyone. VII and the others allow you to choose whether to stick to a linear game or to explore. In other words they give you a degree of choice.

It is this that annoys me, because whilst it is perfectly fine to enjoy a linear game, it is not fine to believe that everyone will, or that by taking away choice this is a superior design move.

liking something is a personal preference, however, even someone that likes linear nature or something else should concede that this isn't a good design choice when you are forcing that on everyone, and not giving them the choices they once had. You can enjoy something and still see it as a design flaw.

The 2 are independent.

Taking away things from a game, particular things that make an RPG cannot be called anything other than a design flaw. That doesn't mean that some people won't prefer that, of course they will, this forum has proven that, but it doesn't alter the fact that it is a flaw, and that it is severely restricting things for a large section of fans.

if I took away the story completely, I can gaurentee you that a section of people would be saying "I like it better without a story thanks, more gameplay please!" and others would be "this hasn't got a bloody story! this is an RPG"

That is where balance and CHOICE come in....choose to skip it, choose to go into it more by sidequests (or in MGS' case codecs).

But forcing it one way or another is a design flaw. In XIII's case, they spent too much time on graphics and were not prepared to put more effort into making traditional towns. It wasn't even a wanted design plan, it was there because they HAD to choose 1 or the other and they decided they would rather have obscene graphics and squander time and money (see polishing rocks for 3 days), to toning down the graphics and placing that effort into towns /minigames etc.

They have said this is the reason.

Why did they do that? Because graphics SELL. It isn't a business flaw, therefore they accepted the design flaw. If more people thought like me, then it would be a business flaw as well, and thus the design flaws would get plugged.

Well, they are laughing like Mr. Mcscrooge (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5LFLMf2mPk&fmt=18) from Duck Tales now aren't they (my personal analogy) as they swim in their profits? Because they have still sold 5.5 million copies and that will tell them to continue in this fashion.

[finaloblivion]

fair enough. you're right, not everyone has to like it, but many people did. many of those people always played the games that way and rather appreciated it when that decision was made in the development. i personally disliked the "openness" of say, XII, being forced on me so i do see where you're coming from. i don't think it's necessarily a terrible game but definitely one of my least favorite FFs. Versus should have more of something for everyone though, if you still have the faith left to try it.

[seiferalmasy2]

It's too late now really cause the PS3 is gone but they may be making it for xbox now to maximise their profits ;) so possibly.

And yes I agree with you , XII was TOO open...or should I say, it was open without anything going on and the pacing was like an ant pushing a brick across a desert (yes I know I stole that one). I think XII had the best potential of all FF games and it was totally and utterly squandered.

Love your sig btw :P

[finaloblivion]

i think the whole xbox thing was just a statement by Wada that was a little misconstrued, but honestly I wouldn't be suprised if at this point they made it multi-platform. he said that any game, not just Versus, is not set in stone as far as platform goes until a formal announcement is made. however...

all this talk about squeenix's project X? i do believe it could be the mult-plat announce of Versus. i have my reasons, but it could be. or it's something compeltely different.

as for my sig seifer...y'know, i gotta show my love and stay true, just like you. like everyone's been throwin back and forth throughout all these arguments, there are gonna be those people that despise this game (you) and the ones who support and love it (me) and that's just how its gonna be. ya can't change it. but seriously the argument wasn't goin anywhere so we might as well just agree to disagree and move on, yeah? at least we both have our reasons for disliking XII :P

[reinward]

never before have i actually disliked a FF game, until this one.

my favorites were IX and X, but VI, VII, VIII, XII were all still good games

XIII has the most pathetic world i've ever seen. i have no concept of what cocoon really is, since the entire time we are running though metallic corridors with monsters running around. i have no problem with a game being linear if its done right. FFX was linear and i loved that game, but there is absolutely no sense of immmersion in this game. Also, the story sucks. For a game that has this many cutscenes possibly rivaling FFX for the most cutscenes ever in a FF, the story does not progress very well at all, all we get are scenes of Lightning bitching, and the villians? c'mon... Barthandelus makes Ultimecia look like Kuja (the best FF villian ever). i get that the game is more focused on the big picture but give some kind of scapegoat

the battle system is OK, i dont really like it but i dont despise it either. i just wish they would go back to the turn based system of X...

Part of what made FFs great to me was their ability to drag you into their world. conversing with townspeople and exploring cities gives you the sense that you were part of the world. this is something i though XII did very well, despite XII being one of my least favortie FFs (but still liking it), but you get NONE of this in XIII. how are there no tribes or clans of people on Gran Pulse?? completely unacceptable..


and some other minor things which drive me bonkers. i hate this games upgrade system. i hate the "treasure chests" floating orbs..wtf??? this is final FANTASY not final sci-fi...i want treasure CHESTS! i hate when games make stupid electrical items like idk i cant remember like spark plugs and crap like that. whats more exciting finding a bunch of eletric crap and upgrading it at a save point or exploring a mysterious dungeon for the legendary ultima weapon?

and what is the point of the crystarium system. i bascially is a freaking straight line (with a couple of tiny branching paths) why not just go back to the traditional level up/exp system? its just exrtra pointless work to advance crystarium.

this last complaint is directed at both XII and XIII. HUNTS AND MARKS ARE NOT SIDEQUESTS!!!! we are doing the EXACT same thing that we've been doing the entire game.. killing monsters!!! lets see something, ANYTHING else to break up the action. chocobo racing, card games, blitzball, chocobo hot and cold were all good ideas but hunts and marks SUCK.


i have a lot more complaints with it, but cant remember them all. im at chapter 12 and i have very little motivation to finish this game and most likely wont.


this is the only FF i can say i dislike (i wasnt crazy about XII, but i still liked it)

who else that this game is god awful?

[theundeadhero]

how are there no tribes or clans of people on Gran Pulse??Storywise, because after the last war they killed each other off fighting for the necessary resources to survive.


HUNTS AND MARKS ARE NOT SIDEQUESTS!!!! we are doing the EXACT same thing that we've been doing the entire game.. killing monsters!!! lets see something, ANYTHING else to break up the action. chocobo racing, card games, blitzball, chocobo hot and cold were all good ideas but hunts and marks SUCK.In FFXII, the Marks were the only things that kept me going through the game. I progressed the storyline to level up so I could kill the next one. I didn't even do most of them in FFXIII though. I hated the FFIX card game but loved the FFVIII one. Blitzball was alright but I pretty much hate all the chocobo sidequests from each game they're in.

[Madame Adequate]

You're gonna get on well with seiferalmasy xD

[seiferalmasy2]

Unfortunately, the author will have to contact me in PM as I have been gagged by the mods from directly commenting or from criticising.

I look forward to sending this poster some links later which will cheer him up ;)

[Shin Gouken]

Unfortunately, the author will have to contact me in PM as I have been gagged by the mods from directly commenting or from criticising.

I look forward to sending this poster some links later which will cheer him up ;)

Well niether of you are alone, i'm along your line of thinking regarding FFXIII too. I agree with most if not all both your complaints.

The only thing i'm going to disagree with is FFXII Marks. I think i already gave my thoughts on them in another thread somewhere so wont go into any detail here.

But you're right about FFXIII's marks. You read a simple piece of text telling you someone failed to kill something so you decide to go kill it. Walk to wherever it tells you the mark is located and then fight the same enemies you've already fought with little to no difference, even to the point where some marks are the exact same battle. They aren't fun, too few of them are actually challenging (even to 5 star) and the rewards aren't nearly enough incentive to force yourself through them.

[Rocket Edge]

I fully agree.

(Something I posted in a different thread. It deserves another post for however missed it due to the great review I was quoting from)

This game was a massive disappointment. I got to chapter 7 and literally, no matter how hard I persevered with this game could NOT bring myself to play it any further. I was looking forward to this game for so long, and tracked its progress for equal measure. This person perfectly sums up my feelings about what ticked me off so much about this game:

'Lets start from the beginning. Months prior to this games release I would hear and read time and time again on review sites, forums, everywhere... the word "linear." "This game is too 'linear'. Linear this and linear that." I got so sick of the word. It has to be some memetic mutation, an exaggeration, I thought. It can't be that bad....

It really is that bad.

All these beautiful scenes CGIs, vistas, environments, all amount to... well, a facade. You get to look at these things but you don't get to explore them. It's like uh, a looking at a pretty picture. In fact you don't get to decide anything at all. This is where the word "linear" comes in. Pretty much every place they drop you in is a just a straight path from A to B. Now I understand that most JRPGs are linear. They all amount to going from point A to point B overall, but they tend to have something in between that makes you forget that. This game, though, it's like they didn't even bother... they might as well just strap you to a bullet train, because it feels like you're just along for the ride.

You see, the majority of the game basically consists of you traveling down a hallway towards the next cutscene. I'm not even exaggerating. Everywhere is a basically a curving hallway, then cutscene, then they drop you in another hallway. At one point there was a forest, and I thought "hmm maybe I'll get to explore this time since, you know, IT'S A FOREST." Nope, just another hallway in the trees. You know, I get the feeling that these developers, deep down, just wanted to make another movie. Well they should have just made another movie and gotten it out of their system.

What is the point of the Crystarium other than to give you something else pretty to look at? This thing tries to trick you into thinking it's going to give you choices; they have a bunch of branchy looking things to that effect. You have to unlock one node to get to the next one, whether you want it or not. You get more paths to fill up later on, but by then, when you have Hope as the most powerful mage for example, what point would there be in filling his Commando path? There are no choices. If they were just going to string us around with this thing, they might as well have just had some normal level up system from 1 to 100. At least it wouldn't have been an insult to my intelligence.

The weapon's system is yet another head-scratcher. You get a weapon and you level it up with some materials you find. Then you find another weapon, but by the time you find it you've already leveled up your weapon so much that it's already better than that new weapon. Well then what's the point? I don't know whether I have to wait for new weapons or level up this one so I can be strong enough for the next boss. Was it really so hard just to have a weapon that's better than the one you have in the next shop or treasure chest? This is just too confusing.

The thing it seems they screwed up on most with this game is the storytelling, believe it or not.

These characters are so plastic and stereotypical. Vanille has the most girly little noises and gestiticulations she does that are just so damn irritating. Even Sazh, the most realistic, sensible character in the game has the most ridiculous afro, with a chocobo nesting in it... major facepalm moments here.

Maybe I would care about these characters if they had actually made the story somewhat engaging. Here's why the storytelling fails:
They begin right in the middle of the action, and everyone seems to know everything... everyone except you, the player. Right off the bat, they start throwing all these foreign words at you like "L'Cie", "Fal'Cie", "Focus" as if you're supposed to know what the hell they're talking about. Eighty percent of the time I have no idea what is going on in this game. All of a sudden I have to go to Paloompaloompa or whatever it's called. Why? All of sudden this guy wearing a wedding dress is my enemy. Why?
Everyone has a Focus, and they don't know what their focus is. But it seems that they have to figure out what their focus is or these Gods called the Fal'Cie are gonna turn them into zombies. And if they do complete their focus they get turned to crystal. Okay, so let me get this straight. These all powerful Fal'Cie decided to brand these people on their asses, make them hated by society, all to give them this task that they wanted them to do so badly. And for some reason they decided not to tell them what this task was. Not even a clue or hint, because ooooh they're so mysterious... Nice job guys.
You know how I even know all this? It's not like the characters discussed it in a conversation. You see, in the menu they have this "Data Log" you're supposed to read that tells you everything. It's literally pages and pages of information that updates every so often just so you can know what's going on. So instead of having a little exposition and character interaction to let you know all the background details, they throw a book at you. I understand they wanted to get right into the action real fast, but this is the worst way they could have possibly done it. It's like you go to a movie, and they hand out these 200 page brochures you need to read just so you can understand what's going on in the movie. You know, if I wanted to read a novel, I would have gone to Barnes and Noble and bought one. This is how you alienate your audience. This is really basic stuff. When you tell a story, you have exposition to let the audience know what's going on. I don't get why this was so hard for Square this time around. It's like they didn't even bother, just like with the linearity. In fact I heard they had a bunch of novels on their website just to explain the characters' backgrounds. Come on Square. I have a life, you know.
.
I can't even sit down to play the game for more than an hour or two because it's just so boring, nonsensical, and thanks to Vanille, irritating. I have to sit down and read paragraphs, when I just wanted to play a videogame. Do you begin to see what happened here? The developers tried so hard to turn a game into a movie, that they failed at making either. Whatever this thing is, I can't bring myself to finish it.

I know people would say "Wait till you get 20-30 hours or so into the game". Get to chapter 11 or whatever, then it opens up and gets good. Now I can understand some games starting off slow. I'm willing to wait like an hour or two, maybe three, for a game to get good. BUT 30 HOURS? You mean to tell me that I have to wait till near the END of the game for it to get any good? Why can't it be good now? Why can't it be good from the start? I just don't get it. I'm no great philosopher or logician, but I'm pretty sure a 6 year-old could tell you that that if only 10% of a game is good, then the game is bad.' - My feelings perfectly.

Why on earth they had to change it so much from the previous FF's in this regard is beyond me. I just find it so unbelievably boring. I think they forgot this was a video game and not a movie. This game doesn't even deserve a 2/10. Well maybe I'd give it that for the beautiful graphics alone. Still, a major blip in the series, and I hope for the life of me it gets back into the swing of things for upcoming Final Fantasy games.

[champagne supernova]

And what we'll counter-argue (continuously if need be) is that every single Final Fantasy since VII (at least) has followed the exact same formula. Run down to a certain area, fight a boss, cue FMV.

Maybe XIII doesn't have as many areas off the main road, but neither does any FF. There may be a greater illusion of choice, but that is all it is at the end of the day: an illusion.

And I loved the previous FFs. One example I keep citing is VIII, because of the amount of stuff you can do in the villages and just the vast number of side-quests in it. This is just a different type of experience.

I'm playing IX at the moment and I would not tell you how much I would give to have the XIII battle system at the moment. Yes, I will agree that there should have been an option for greater control when you want it, but when I have to wait half a minute for a battle scene to load (because it has to pan around the environment) then push X repeatedly for a minute, before seeing people jump around, I realise that there was something fundamentally wrong with previous FFs.

So, I think XIII is a step in the right direction. It was very linear and the battle system did not give you enough control when you wanted it (boss & difficult battles). However, I think it is a step in the right direction (albeit too large a step) and future FFs will benefit from this experiment. I am placing great hopes on Versus judging from XIII and the noises coming out of the Versus camp.


They begin right in the middle of the action, and everyone seems to know everything... everyone except you, the player. Right off the bat, they start throwing all these foreign words at you like "L'Cie", "Fal'Cie", "Focus" as if you're supposed to know what the hell they're talking about.

Unlike VII where you start off on a train (hehe, I love the little hints to previous FFs in this game) and have people accusing you of being the enemy because you're SOLDIER. And you're blowing up a mako plant.

And the datalog was a wonderful addition for people who may take a few days off the game (perhaps because they have work etc) and then can come back and get a quick recap. It is not required to follow the story, if you're paying attention.

[Rad Bromance]

BAAAAWWWWWWWWW! THERE'S NO MEN THAT LOOK LIKE WOMEN AND NO AREAS I CAN RUN AROUND IN WITH NOTHING TO DO IN THEM! BAWWWWWWWWWWW!

[Clo]

Fans of 90s RPGs are going out kicking and screaming. It's sad to watch.

Everything changes. For better or for worse.

[Mirage]

Actually no. There's plenty of better RPGs than FF13 between 2000 and 2010. Try harder next time!

[asukaevaunit02]

Firstly, I'm surprised by how much and how strong the hate for XIII is.

That said I agree with what the opening post and Rocket Edge said. I didn't really enjoy the game. It started out alright, but after a while say 20-30hrs it just felt dragged out and confusing what exactly what was going on and what the aim was, it switched too often on who the group waas going to destroy to save themselves or Coccon.
By chapter 10 or 11 it was just grinding to push on to say I finished the game... which I paid $95 for :(

I have no intention of replaying either, because its so slow and time consuming to get anywhere.

I also like the term of referring to XIII as a movie, because thats what it felt like, most of the time you are watching what is going on, I didn't feel like I was appart of the game/world very much at all.

There I put my 2 cents worth in finally!

[Skyblade]

You know, if I wanted to read a novel, I would have gone to Barnes and Noble and bought one.

As a B&N bookseller:
Your patronage is very much appreciated.

But, yeah, I agree with most of the points made here. The game is one dimensional. I just hope Square learns from this experiment and doesn't repeat their mistakes.

[Rocket Edge]

And what we'll counter-argue (continuously if need be) is that every single Final Fantasy since VII (at least) has followed the exact same formula. Run down to a certain area, fight a boss, cue FMV.
I'll quote reinward here:

i have no problem with a game being linear if its done right. FFX was linear and i loved that game, but there is absolutely no sense of immmersion in this game.
There really isn't. The whole world seems so dead. Where are all the people who you could strike up a conversation with at will? None. All it is is you and the enemy. There is no time to stop and say, maybe I'll explore this place or town before I go on with the story. Maybe even grind a bit to get some more gil, etc. In this game there is nothing like that. Just a straight line from A to B. It's incredably boring.


Maybe XIII doesn't have as many areas off the main road, but neither does any FF. There may be a greater illusion of choice, but that is all it is at the end of the day: an illusion.
That is so wrong. Name me one FF that you can't wander around at will within the first hours of the game and do your own thing. I mean c'mon, it takes you til' chapter 4 or 5 to get to your first city and its still a straight line with no interaction whatsoever with the city-folk and no ways to even go down a different street to look at shops or whichever. That's another thing, they took out all those little things like shops to make it as linear as possible. Hell even a big open area would be nice now and again.


And I loved the previous FFs. One example I keep citing is VIII, because of the amount of stuff you can do in the villages and just the vast number of side-quests in it. This is just a different type of experience.
My favorite FF was VIII. But I'll agree this is a different kettle of fish altogether. Maybe I'm daft for not liking it but I find the game just so boring.


I'm playing IX at the moment and I would not tell you how much I would give to have the XIII battle system at the moment. Yes, I will agree that there should have been an option for greater control when you want it, but when I have to wait half a minute for a battle scene to load (because it has to pan around the environment) then push X repeatedly for a minute, before seeing people jump around, I realise that there was something fundamentally wrong with previous FFs.
Um, IX was on the PS1 and was released over 10 years ago. Of course the fighting system is going to come along over the years. Thats like saying the first Call of Duty was crap because it doesn't play like Modern Warfare 2. I personally didn't like XIII's battle system. The chief reason was because it lacked any customisation that previous FF's has in abundance (and what personally always drew me towards the games). Whatever happened to all the status ailments? Or the steal command for example? I could sit here all day and name off some others but I won't. For what it's worth, I thought FFXII had the perfect battle system.


So, I think XIII is a step in the right direction. It was very linear and the battle system did not give you enough control when you wanted it (boss & difficult battles). However, I think it is a step in the right direction (albeit too large a step) and future FFs will benefit from this experiment. I am placing great hopes on Versus judging from XIII and the noises coming out of the Versus camp.
I hope to god your right, because if the next FF is anyway as bad as this I won't be getting it, and I've purchased every FF game to date and loved them all.


They begin right in the middle of the action, and everyone seems to know everything... everyone except you, the player. Right off the bat, they start throwing all these foreign words at you like "L'Cie", "Fal'Cie", "Focus" as if you're supposed to know what the hell they're talking about.

Unlike VII where you start off on a train (hehe, I love the little hints to previous FFs in this game) and have people accusing you of being the enemy because you're SOLDIER. And you're blowing up a mako plant.
To be fair every FF I've played I have had no problem in picking up on the story, because at the start everything was well explained and kept basic. Why did I have such a problem with picking up on XIII? It was too confusing. I'm at chapter 6 or 7 and still don't know what a L'cie, Fal'cie or whatever fully is.


And the datalog was a wonderful addition for people who may take a few days off the game (perhaps because they have work etc) and then can come back and get a quick recap. It is not required to follow the story, if you're paying attention.
Not so more an addition but more like compulsory. I think it would be very safe to say everyone who has played the game for the first time has had to go back over the datalog to understand whats really going on. I sure did. And a wonderful addition is where Marquis Ondore recites the games ending chapters to you in XII. The datalog was more like reading homework.

[Elpizo]

XIII hate has already gotten old. Bring on the complaints about how XV is the worst ever, please.

[Shin Gouken]

XIII hate has already gotten old. Bring on the complaints about how XV is the worst ever, please.

You're complaining at FFXIII hate when your in a FFXIII hate thread lol. Perhaps you could go revive the love thread :p

I think most if not all of the complaints regarding FFXIII are justified though.

FF's are known to make changes from one game to the next, scrapping some bits and trying new things, which is perfectly fine. But FFXIII is as far opposite as is possible from the last numbered game. I still believe that this game could have been given any title as it certainly doesn't resemble anything FF

[Elpizo]

I'm not saying anything about XIII, or if it's hate is justified or not. I'm just saying it's already gotten old, since this topic gives no arguments of hate that haven't been given before. They could easily have been placed in the Flaw Thread instead of creating another topic dedicated to pissing on XIII as if it's the unholy antichrist itself. That's all.

And I thought the same thing back when hating XII was "in", too, so it's not as if XIII is special for me like that. And I already know it'll be the same when XIV and XV will be released. Yay.

[DarkOrigins]

XIII hate has already gotten old. Bring on the complaints about how XV is the worst ever, please.

You're complaining at FFXIII hate when your in a FFXIII hate thread lol. Perhaps you could go revive the love thread :p

I think most if not all of the complaints regarding FFXIII are justified though.

FF's are known to make changes from one game to the next, scrapping some bits and trying new things, which is perfectly fine. But FFXIII is as far opposite as is possible from the last numbered game. I still believe that this game could have been given any title as it certainly doesn't resemble anything FF

Agreed, FF's change things gently as each game goes on, FFIX jumping to FFX was a huge leap. But I disagree with you saying FFXII is completely opposite to FFXII. If anything, they are very very similar.

Battlegen system = Crappier Gambit system
Storyline = Same. Fal'Cie = Occurians, L'Cie = Crystal bearers
Hunt sidequest = Hunt sidequest

It's all very similar. The problem with the last two FF's, FFXII and FFXIII is that Squenix have been influenced by the growing multiplayer craze in the world, making FFXI and trying to make FFXII and XIII feel like a multi-player game while being a singular, even to having characters pretend they're "Scouting ahead".

[Del Murder]

Merged reinward's thread with the flaw thread. Let's keep this as the general 'why we hate FFXIII' thread.

[Cloudane]

Your patronage is very much appreciated.

I read that in the voice of Rin :D

This was almost going to be a spam comment (tut tut) but actually it illustrates a point I was making earlier. It's not so much structural linearity (although it undeniably exists) but again, ever since XII, a lack of things that added depth, immersion and plain old fun.

Whether it's meeting recurring characters like Rin, Maechen, Don Corneo, Bugenhagen, Growly stomach rebellion guy, good guys called Cid (annoys me that he's become throwaway or evil or both), the named moogles etc etc... there was always something memorable about those... or the various little activities you can do to feel more involved with the world like chocobo breeding, playing cards, helping the Moogles to send letters, learning Al Bhed...

What is there like that in XIII? Pretty much nothing and nobody. A few recurring characters pop up in cutscenes, the only things to do aside from battling are preparing for battle (customising weapons, growing the crystarium, exploring for things to customise your weapons with). Battle battle battle - that's what's wrong with it. The only real sidequests we get in XII or XIII is marks. Yay! More battling! :rolleyes:

[ChickenHeart]

Heres something that ticks me off atm, i've started the game again. And i'm up to the Sunleather waterscape whatsit. I grinded Light and hope on the previous chapter but... The crystaliruim (Major spelling fail there) system is one of the most annoying things i've found so far. In other FFs there was more freedom, with lots of grinding you could get better spells etc. But with this one...you're stopped. It justs shuts down. I hate the fact that at the end chapters the crystaliruim gains a new level.

[Lexy]

I'm so sick of hearing the argument that all the other FF's gave the player the "illusion" of choice, therefore FFXIII isn't any more (or significantly more) linear than the other FF's. Are people who claim this even being for real?

[champagne supernova]

I'm so sick of hearing the argument that all the other FF's gave the player the "illusion" of choice, therefore FFXIII isn't any more (or significantly more) linear than the other FF's. Are people who claim this even being for real?

Play Elder Scrolls. Play Fallout. Those games have true choice. I haven't played any Fallout, but I have played Elder Scrolls (and will soon play Fallout) and know that you don't have to follow the main quest if you don't want to. And you can join certain guilds. You can end quests in certain ways. Apparently Fallout is even more so (which I hope to start playing soon).

Same with Heavy Rain. Every single choice you make in the game influences events later on. That is why you have different endings. That is choice.

Illusion of choice is by making the world slightly bigger and letting you have side-quests etc. XIII had very little illusion. But no modern Final Fantasy (and apart from VI, I can't think of any FF) that has given you much in the way of any real choice in what you did.

And I'm not disagreeing that XIII is linear. I'm just illustrating that structurally every FF is linear with a greater illusion of choice. Whether this is now a flaw or a decision made by the designers to emphasise the story is where the debate should actually be headed (as this is a flaw thread).

[Rostum]

And I'm not disagreeing that XIII is linear. I'm just illustrating that structurally every FF is linear with a greater illusion of choice.

I haven't played FFXIII so I can't comment much. But honestly, give me the illusion of freedom than no freedom at all.

:D

[Lexy]

Yes, all of the FF's are technically linear, but XIII is completely linear in the strictest sense of the word. In the other FF's, I have a choice of what I want to be doing at any given time. There is none of this in XIII, that is why it is truly a linear game. You do not merely have the illusion of choice while playing, say, XII, you have total choice over what you want to be doing while you play. It is linear in the sense that you have to do certain things to advance the story, if you even care about finishing the game (where's the fun in that?), but you have tons of choice over what you want to do in between all the story bits. And yeah, there are games that don't even make you follow a specific story line, but obviously that's not FF. That doesn't mean that everything but Elder scrolls is totally linear, there are wildly varying degrees of linearity.
Other than while you're on Pulse, you can't even revisit any area in the game! That's gotta distinguish it as vastly more linear than any other FF.

[champagne supernova]

You can choose to chill in an area in XIII, view all the sights from every single angle, beat every optional battle and get every single chest. I'm still arguing that it's linear, but I don't see how you can argue that being able to backtrack through areas or go through past areas to kill monsters creates game choice.

To be honest, VIII made me revisit many areas. I enjoyed it because in the context of the story, it made sense to use areas you had connected with (those who've played it will understand what I mean). But someone could just as easily counter-argue that VIII showed a lack of inspiration and general laziness in not creating new areas.

And you cannot argue that the fact that XIII has no distractions (in the form of side-quests etc) is a flaw. A game that actually requires these side-quests (as in, the main gameplay has become dull) would be considered flawed. Side-quests are merely there to augment the game, not make the game worth playing.

So by becoming linear, it only removed many of the augmenting features that we associate with a Final Fantasy. But Final Fantasy VIII is not about the Shumi tribe or Triple Triad, and VII is not about chocobo breeding and snowboard racing, and IX is not about their inferior version of Triple Triad, and X is not about Blitzball and XII is not about mark hunting (or fishing - most pointless side-quest ever). So, XIII decided to purify the core experience by removing anything that could distract the player from the main storyline. That is a design choice, not a flaw.

It only becomes flawed when the main experience can no longer carry the game (which some people feel it hasn't).

But the main issue I have here is people mentioning this and that Final Fantasy and saying how non-linear it is relative to FFXIII when it is clearly not. Lack of linearity implies choice, and choice only has meaning when it influences something else. Whether I choose to go left or right has no influence on the world. Whether I choose to breed chocobos or not has no influence on the world. VII is the last FF which I think had any meaningful choice, and that had to do with the dating game. Since then, nothing you chose to do has influenced the world at all.

[Lexy]

When I think linear, I think a straight line making you go from one place to the next, with no backtracking, and no choice as to what you want to do- you have no place to go but forward in the game. I don't associate linearity with changing the game world or effecting the outcome of the game. For me, games are just about having fun every moment you are playing the game. If I am playing XIII, for the majority of the game, I have to do what the game is telling me to do at that moment. In XII, if I get sick of being in a particular dungeon, I can leave, go to an orange crystal and teleport somewhere else and do whatever I want, be it trying to see how many mobs I can chain, hunt some marks, try to gather materials for bazaar stuff, etc. I love going to some cool looking location like the stillshrine of miriam and just trying to chain as high as I can. That has absolutely no effect on the game world, but it's my idea of a fun Saturday night! I think honestly what you are describing as linear...isn't there another name for those sort of very open ended games? I don't play them, so I don't know. I just don't think of linear the same way you do. Maybe I need to look it up.

[champagne supernova]

In XII, if I get sick of being in a particular dungeon

And that would suggest bad game design right there. Surely being sick in a particular dungeon is the flaw.

[Lexy]

Not necessarily, maybe you just don't feel like being in a dungeon at that moment. The thing about XIII is that almost the entire game is one big linear dungeon, every moment is pure torture, the opposite of fun, AND there is absolutely no escape for the vast majority of the game. No escape, no choice of what you want to do. I just don't see how someone could reasonably say that XIII is not more linear than the other FF's. It just is!

[Shin Gouken]

In XII, if I get sick of being in a particular dungeon

And that would suggest bad game design right there. Surely being sick in a particular dungeon is the flaw.

The lack of choice i would definitley consider a flaw, whether it was intended or not.

FFXII CAN have a greater pace if the player chooses to push the plot forward or you have the choice to do something different. FFXII gives control over players AI but also the choice not to use it. FFXII offers multi-paths. You can choose to take a left or a right, whether that be simply an alternetive route through one area or by passing a different area entirely.

The problem with FFXIII is you're being told where to go, how you progress on the crystarium, what to do and even how to fight. There is nothing but to play the way you're being told. I wonder why the game even needs me at all, why not cut the crap and just move my character forward to the next cutscene for me. The formula of walk-fight-cutscene gets extremely tedious very quickly. If you're incredabley impressed with the plot and enjoy the battle system then you can make it through the entire game fine, but how many people have you heard giving up because they're bored of it?