Beatrix

[Mezlabor]

I wish she could have joined our party. She was awesome and we got teased with her awesomeness so very briefly.

[Imperfectionist]

She is pretty awesome. I'm glad she turned out to be a good guy :)

[Quindiana Jones]

Good hardly covers it. Freaking awesome would be better.

I love Beatrix. Badass warrior woman with magnificently volumous hair? Love it.

[Mo-Nercy]

The eye-patch really did it for me. And her theme song! *HEART*

[Rantz]

Top notch. Great theme song, too.

Edit: Great minds, Mo.

[PuPu]

A stupid and overrated character that stupidly followed Brahne's orders.

I still can't believe that the game makes her go 3-0 against your party and that there's nothing you can do about it or get revenge on her.

As an ally, she isn't that great either because she runs out of MP really quickly.

And her theme song sounds way too similar to a certain FFX song that I can't remember at the moment.

[Freya]

So wouldn't it be a X song sounds too much like hers since hers came first? :D

I liked her cause she was a badass female character and normally they make female characters magic users. Wasn't until more recent games that you got the sword wielding female.

[PuPu]

So wouldn't it be a X song sounds too much like hers since hers came first?

Yeah it's just that I like the FFX song more for some reason.

[Bad Wolf]

I really would have liked to have had her join the party instead of Amarant. She is just so much cooler. And "Rose of May" is one of my favorite FF songs ever. :love:

[Jiro]

Beatrix acts like an idiot for half of the game because she's a loyal soldier. She's blind to the fact her Queen is a ho, but then she realises her wrongs and fights the good fight. I'm glad she didn't join the party, not because I dislike her, but because I felt she played her part well how it was.

[PuPu]

I think that even her change of heart was a really sloppy transition.

Brahne: Durr Imma kill Garnet now that I have her Eidolons
Beatrix: What?
Brahne: You heard me! Shut up and go find the last jewel!
Beatrix: Yes, your majesty...

Five minutes later:

Beatrix: I'll kill all enemies of Alexandria! Never step on to this land again. Your powers are useless against me.
*sees Garnet*
Beatrix: Oh my god, she was really going to kill Garnet. Oh yeah and sorry for the genocide in Burmecia as well.

[charliepanayi]

I think that even her change of heart was a really sloppy transition.

Brahne: Durr Imma kill Garnet now that I have her Eidolons
Beatrix: What?
Brahne: You heard me! Shut up and go find the last jewel!
Beatrix: Yes, your majesty...

Five minutes later:

Beatrix: I'll kill all enemies of Alexandria! Never step on to this land again. Your powers are useless against me.
*sees Garnet*
Beatrix: Oh my god, she was really going to kill Garnet. Oh yeah and sorry for the genocide in Burmecia as well.

Way to over-simplify there. She's already having doubts before that last exchange, and seeing Garnet is simply what confirms them.

As someone said, Beatrix (like Steiner) is daft because she's a soldier who follows orders and thinks this is the best way to do things. Both of them break out of this during the game.

[PuPu]

She may have had doubts, but it's not uncommon for soldiers to have doubts about their actions. What she and every other soldier have in common though, is that they still stupidly follow orders.

The fact that she needed to see Garnet to have a change of heart after her boss specifically told her that she was going to kill Garnet 5 minutes ago proves my point as to how stupid she is.

The fact that seeing Garnet unconscious somehow made her suddenly think: "genocide is bad" is also...bleh.

[Vivisteiner]

She may have had doubts, but it's not uncommon for soldiers to have doubts about their actions. What she and every other soldier have in common though, is that they still stupidly follow orders.

The fact that she needed to see Garnet to have a change of heart after her boss specifically told her that she was going to kill Garnet 5 minutes ago proves my point as to how stupid she is.
.
I don't think her progression was unrealistic. For a start, she probably didn't really believe what Brahne said in anger as being genuine. Her loyalty blinded her from reason - until the evidence was undeniable, and that would be expected considering her position.


The fact that seeing Garnet unconscious somehow made her suddenly think: "genocide is bad" is also...bleh.

The reason Garnet's unconciousness caused that effect was because up until then there was always a way (albeit unconvincing) to justify Brahne's actions. But when these actions extended to Garnet - someone who she knew, it become patent that her reasons for genocide were pure fabrications. She knew first hand of the innocence of Garnet, and so the actions taken against her could only be condemned.

[MJN SEIFER]

I love how she's actually got two themes, one for when she's bad and one for when she's good.

I can't remeber the name of the theme when she's bad, but "loss of me" is her good theme.

[Vermachtnis]

I liked her. Her costume was leggy.

[blackmage_nuke]

She reminded me of Celes so i guess thats a good thing. Also love her theme

[arcanedude34]

She would play way to similar to Steiner. ...not that that stopped them with Garnet-2, but whatever. I wouldn't have minded having her tag along instead of Amarant though.

[MJN SEIFER]

She reminded me of Celes so i guess thats a good thing. Also love her theme

Maybe they semi-based her on Celes? FFIX was partly aimed at long term fans of the FF series after all.


She would play way to similar to Steiner. ...not that that stopped them with Garnet-2, but whatever. I wouldn't have minded having her tag along instead of Amarant though.

I assume Garnet-2 is Eiko? Well they had to make her similar due to storyline. However they give both characters different Eidolons(sp?) and I think Eiko can use a few more magics as well (have to check on that).

[Depression Moon]

Beatrix was so badass. I do really wish she could've been a permanent entry to the cast, but who would've taken care of Alexandria? Beatrix must've had a political science degree along with her Phd in ass-kicking.

[arcanedude34]

She reminded me of Celes so i guess thats a good thing. Also love her theme

Maybe they semi-based her on Celes? FFIX was partly aimed at long term fans of the FF series after all.


She would play way to similar to Steiner. ...not that that stopped them with Garnet-2, but whatever. I wouldn't have minded having her tag along instead of Amarant though.

I assume Garnet-2 is Eiko? Well they had to make her similar due to storyline. However they give both characters different Eidolons(sp?) and I think Eiko can use a few more magics as well (have to check on that).
Yeah, Holy, Full-Life, and Regen, iirc, all three of which are pretty useless by the time you get them, so I always just stick with Garnet-1

Funny thing is I would have a REALLY hard time deciding between Steiner and Beatrix. Both awesome characters.

[blackmage_nuke]

If they did include Beatrix as a permanent character they should give her some combine techs with Steiner like the Swd Magic that Steiner had with Vivi

[Elly]

if they made Beatrix a permanent playable character, Steiner would never be in my party, i hated him so much...

[ChickenHeart]

meh, hated her...every time she was in the party, killed her off, Freya is better :(

[Freya]

meh, hated her...every time she was in the party, killed her off, Freya is better :(

;) yeah that.

[charliepanayi]

meh, hated her...every time she was in the party, killed her off, Freya is better :(

Making it (marginally) harder to get through the game by killing off one of your party, that makes sense.

And hating Steiner? Madness!

[Vivisteiner]

Making it (marginally) harder to get through the game by killing off one of your party, that makes sense.

And hating Steiner? Madness!
QFT


Steiner is God.

[arcanedude34]

Making it (marginally) harder to get through the game by killing off one of your party, that makes sense.
I did that during the fights with her in Alexandria so Steiner would get all her wasted EXP, so it made the game easier in that respect... not that FFIX isn't easy enough already... but yeah, anyone who hates Steiner should be smacked. A lot.

[Hot Shot]

Beatrix rocks! But as awesome she is, I still prefer Steiner.

[ChickenHeart]

meh, hated her...every time she was in the party, killed her off, Freya is better :(

Making it (marginally) harder to get through the game by killing off one of your party, that makes sense.

And hating Steiner? Madness!

Oh i usually train on grand dragons before hand, so she was pretty useless (apart from that sweeeeeeeeet holy spell)

[Goldenboko]

She may have had doubts, but it's not uncommon for soldiers to have doubts about their actions. What she and every other soldier have in common though, is that they still stupidly follow orders.

The fact that she needed to see Garnet to have a change of heart after her boss specifically told her that she was going to kill Garnet 5 minutes ago proves my point as to how stupid she is.

The fact that seeing Garnet unconscious somehow made her suddenly think: "genocide is bad" is also...bleh.

This is how real life works. People commit atrocities all the time in the name of their country, it isn't unbelievable that a soldier would kill as told when the enemy is strangers. It isn't a huge disbelief that she would refuse to think Brahne would kill Garnet. Her life has been loyalty to the throne.

[PuPu]

I don't think her progression was unrealistic. For a start, she probably didn't really believe what Brahne said in anger as being genuine. Her loyalty blinded her from reason - until the evidence was undeniable, and that would be expected considering her position.

Which is...exactly why she's stupid with stupid blind loyalty like your typical stupid soldier. And her laughably bad transition to "I'll kill all enemies of Alexandria!" to "Citizens of Burmecia, please forgive me" happened in a matter of seconds over a completely unrelated subject (Garnet), which you can clearly tell is forced and poorly written.



The reason Garnet's unconciousness caused that effect was because up until then there was always a way (albeit unconvincing) to justify Brahne's actions....no there wasn't.


But when these actions extended to Garnet - someone who she knew, it become patent that her reasons for genocide were pure fabrications.The only reason for genocide was "HURR LET'S TEST OUT HOW POWERFUL THESE EIDOLONS ARE BY SEEING HOW MANY PEOPLE THEY CAN KILL" which is hardly justifiable in any way.


She knew first hand of the innocence of Garnet, and so the actions taken against her could only be condemned. Beatrix knew that Brahne was going to steal her Eidolons. There's no way she couldn't have known that this process alone was incredibly wrong and also an action against Garnet. In either case though, she's still incredibly stupid and ignorant.


This is how real life works. People commit atrocities all the time in the name of their country, it isn't unbelievable that a soldier would kill as told when the enemy is strangers.

The fact that she killed all those people isn't the problem. It's the way that she decided her actions were wrong, that's the problem.


It isn't a huge disbelief that she would refuse to think Brahne would kill Garnet. Her life has been loyalty to the throne. It is when Brahne specifically told her that she would kill Garnet. Even if she didn't think Brahne would kill Garnet, she still should have known that stealing her Eidolons would cause severe harm to her as well. In either case, whether Beatrix knew or not, she's still incredibly retarded with a poorly written transition to becoming an ally.

[Goldenboko]

...Why in the world would Beatrix know that taking her Eidolons would hurt her? :confused: The summoners where an extinct race on a Continent inhabitants of the Mist Continent never visited, knowledge of their race would be extremely limited.

[Quindiana Jones]

...Why in the world would Beatrix know that taking her Eidolons would hurt her? :confused: The summoners where an extinct race on a Continent inhabitants of the Mist Continent never visited, knowledge of their race would be extremely limited.

Was going to say the same. Beatrix has absolutely no reason to know anything about the Eidolons.

As well as this, the destruction of people to test weapons isn't justifiable? She's a soldier who kills people in wars to get more power for her state. It's entirely justifiable in her eyes.

[Goldenboko]

...Why in the world would Beatrix know that taking her Eidolons would hurt her? :confused: The summoners where an extinct race on a Continent inhabitants of the Mist Continent never visited, knowledge of their race would be extremely limited.

As well as this, the destruction of people to test weapons isn't justifiable? She's a soldier who kills people in wars to get more power for her state. It's entirely justifiable in her eyes.

Example Hiroshima, 1945.

[PuPu]

...Why in the world would Beatrix know that taking her Eidolons would hurt her? :confused:

...because it's forcibly removing something that's a part of her? Seriously, it isn't that hard to figure out.


Beatrix has absolutely no reason to know anything about the Eidolons.

But she did know about the Eidolons.


As well as this, the destruction of people to test weapons isn't justifiable?

Not when those people are minding their own business and not doing anything to harm you.


She's a soldier who kills people in wars to get more power for her state. It's entirely justifiable in her eyes.

...which is why she's nothing more than a retarded and blindly loyal soldier.


Example Hiroshima, 1945.

Not the same, at all. Japan was an enemy, Cleyra was not an enemy of Alexandria.

[Quindiana Jones]

No she didn't. Brahne only knew what Kuja told her, and all he bothered telling her were things that would appeal to her nature: AKA dem things blow :bou::bou::bou::bou: up. Coupled with the fact that Brahne was a bitch, it's safe to assume that she told Beatrix bugger all about anything. She wouldn't and didn't know that the process was forcibly removing something that was a part of Garnet, either.

You're thinking like you, which is why your argument is so fail. I'm not gonna bother arguing that killing innocent people minding their own business is a great way to test a weapon, because it's obviously wrong. But if you were Brahne, some power hungry psycho looking to forcibly take over the Mist Continent, then yeah I think it's an okay test method.

We also already know that Beatrix is a blindly loyal soldier. That's...well, that's exactly her character and the point of her inclusion in the game. The whole concept is that she's just a big, powerful robot. But she starts having doubts because Brahne's a massive dick, finally culminating in her betrayal when she rescues Garnet.

[Goldenboko]

...Why in the world would Beatrix know that taking her Eidolons would hurt her? :confused:

...because it's forcibly removing something that's a part of her? Seriously, it isn't that hard to figure out.

They removed her horn when she was a baby because the assumed it was the best for her, to someone who doesn't know about Summoners, that would seem a lot more painful then removing intangible creatures.



Beatrix has absolutely no reason to know anything about the Eidolons.

But she did know about the Eidolons.

Yes, I know what a plane is, I don't know how it flies.



As well as this, the destruction of people to test weapons isn't justifiable?

Not when those people are minding their own business and not doing anything to harm you.


She's a soldier who kills people in wars to get more power for her state. It's entirely justifiable in her eyes.

...which is why she's nothing more than a retarded and blindly loyal soldier.

First off, you should really watch how you word things. It's a soldier's job to obey orders, it doesn't make them retarded. Second, yes, that's the point, she's a soldier that kept to her duty until she decided she had to make a choice. Like a better developed Cecil from FFIV.



Example Hiroshima, 1945.

Not the same, at all. Japan was an enemy, Lindblum was not an enemy of Alexandria.

Lindblum was an enemy of Alexandria the moment Alexandria decided to declare war on, virtually the entire continent. I assumed that you where referring to the scenario in Cleyra where Beatrix used Odin, but insisted her soldiers could've done the job, which was much like using Atomic Bombs on Japan. It was a test to see if how powerful the Eidolons were and once successful, warning to Lindblum (much like how A-Bombing Japan was also a threat against the Soviets, although they countered by making A-Bombs themselves, something Lindblum couldn't do), who was obviously next in line.

[PuPu]

No she didn't. Brahne only knew what Kuja told her, and all he bothered telling her were things that would appeal to her nature: AKA dem things blow :bou::bou::bou::bou: up. Coupled with the fact that Brahne was a bitch, it's safe to assume that she told Beatrix bugger all about anything. Odin destroying Cleyra.


She wouldn't and didn't know that the process was forcibly removing something that was a part of Garnet, either....lol. She couldn't figure that out from "Extract the Eidolons from Garnet?"


You're thinking like you, which is why your argument is so fail.In this quote: The pot calls the kettle black.


But if you were Brahne, some power hungry psycho looking to forcibly take over the Mist Continent, then yeah I think it's an okay test method.But this isn't about Brahne.


We also already know that Beatrix is a blindly loyal soldier. That's...well, that's exactly her character and the point of her inclusion in the game. The whole concept is that she's just a big, powerful robot. But she starts having doubts because Brahne's a massive dick, finally culminating in her betrayal when she rescues Garnet.And she totally ignored all those doubts she had about Brahne and continued to spout blind loyal soldier nonsense such as "I'll kill all enemies of Alexandria!" until the very last minute where the plot forced her to become an ally.



They removed her horn when she was a baby because the assumed it was the best for her, to someone who doesn't know about Summoners, that would seem a lot more painful then removing intangible creatures....no it wouldn't. Considering that a horn isn't a vital organ or anything like that, and that her Eidolons were essentially part of her life force. Also, "intangible creatures"? Odin destroying Cleyra wasn't intangible.


Yes, I know what a plane is, I don't know how it flies.
Odin.


It's a soldier's job to obey orders, it doesn't make them retarded.
She's retarded due to the fact that she didn't know that Brahne was making up BS about sending her to kill people and wanting to kill Garnet, until the very last minute. Even though there were many signs that told her, though she just ignored them until the very last minute.


Second, yes, that's the point, she's a soldier that kept to her duty until she decided she had to make a choice.And she made her choice over Garnet, something completely unrelated to killing all of Burmecia, and when Brahne already told her a minutes ago that she was going to kill Garnet.


I assumed that you where referring to the scenario in Cleyra where Beatrix used Odin, but insisted her soldiers could've done the job, which was much like using Atomic Bombs on Japan.Yeah, didn't know why I said Lindblum. But that's still unjustified, due to the fact that Cleyra wasn't doing anything but minding their business in their desert city. They weren't enemies of Alexandria because they weren't doing anything toward Alexandria, which is why testing Odin on them was unjustified.

[Goldenboko]

Your not taking into account the perspective of Beatrix. We know that the Eidolons are part of her life force. We know that the horn isn't a vital organ (we saw Garnet alive afterall). But when Dr. Tot recalls the removal he says, "The girl cried out in pain...". The Alexandrians had no idea what they were doing at the time.


]And she totally ignored all those doubts she had about Brahne and continued to spout blind loyal soldier nonsense such as "I'll kill all enemies of Alexandria!" until the very last minute where the plot forced her to become an ally.

There's a difference between a plot being "forcing" something or the storyline "forcing" something. Beatrix wasn't just going to betray Alexandria because she had doubts, all soldiers have doubts. Beatrix made her choice when the need to make one was thrust upon her. Even when Brahne said, "the girl is useless to me" Beatrix was going to deny that meant she was going kill her. Its like when a president signs to go to war, it'd be much different if he was pointing an M1 Garand at an 18 year old kid's head.




They removed her horn when she was a baby because the assumed it was the best for her, to someone who doesn't know about Summoners, that would seem a lot more painful then removing intangible creatures....no it wouldn't. Considering that a horn isn't a vital organ or anything like that, and that her Eidolons were essentially part of her life force. Also, "intangible creatures"? Odin destroying Cleyra wasn't intangible.


Yes, I know what a plane is, I don't know how it flies.
Odin.

I said HOW IT FLIES. I know it smurfing flies, but I don't know which wire will plummet the plane to the ground if I clip it.

As for unjustification, soldiers do horrible things. I'm not going to debate that, it doesn't make her a bad character in game.




She wouldn't and didn't know that the process was forcibly removing something that was a part of Garnet, either....lol. She couldn't figure that out from "Extract the Eidolons from Garnet?"

I can have a gun stuck in me and Dr.'s nowadays could remove it without killing me. Same concept she doesn't know it will kill her. You're taking facts you know as the audience and assuming the characters know them.

[Depression Moon]

...no it wouldn't. Considering that a horn isn't a vital organ or anything like that, and that her Eidolons were essentially part of her life force.


to someone who doesn't know about Summoners


Also, "intangible creatures"? Odin destroying Cleyra wasn't intangible.

Not quite sure if you know what intangible means

[Vivisteiner]

Yeah, didn't know why I said Lindblum. But that's still unjustified, due to the fact that Cleyra wasn't doing anything but minding their business in their desert city. They weren't enemies of Alexandria because they weren't doing anything toward Alexandria, which is why testing Odin on them was unjustified.

You forget that many Burmecians retreated to Cleyra, including the King. Thus Brahne's argument would have been that Cleyra was harbouring those who would plot to destroy Alexandria, and so her only option would be to destroy it utterly.

See this quote from the game:


Brahne: "This is a great victory for us. Kuja, your black mages made
this conquest so simple. My only concern now is finding the
king of Burmecia. We must take care of him once and for all,
and prevent these rats from ever rising up again. Beatrix,
what's taking so long!?"

Beatrix: "I don't know, Your Majesty. I've ordered Zorn and Thorn
to search the preimeter, but there's been no word so far. I
will join them and lead the search right away."

Kuja: "You're wasting your time."

Beatrix: "What?"

Kuja: "Rats often look for new homes when they sense an earthquake.
They probably moved to the sandy tree house by now... So, you
see, it's too late. The king has already turned tail and fled."

Brahne: "Sandy tree house... Surely, you can't mean Cleyra!? It'll be
quite difficult if they escaped to Cleyra."



So assuming that Beatrix believed Brahne's claims that the Burmecians were plotting against Alexandrians, it would have been difficult to argue against not attacking Cleyra at all. The use of force was obviously of concern to Beatrix but at the end of the day she realised that she wasn't commander in chief. Turning her back on Brahne at that moment would've been very difficult.

It was only when undeniable proof that Brahne had gone corrupt was offered that Beatrix changed her mind. This proof was the maltreatment of Garnet, someone who she knew to be innocent.

[PuPu]

Your not taking into account the perspective of Beatrix. We know that the Eidolons are part of her life force. We know that the horn isn't a vital organ (we saw Garnet alive afterall). But when Dr. Tot recalls the removal he says, "The girl cried out in pain...". The Alexandrians had no idea what they were doing at the time.

You're forcing out extremely powerful creatures from a girl's body. This releases a large release of energy. And last I checked, large releases of energy were enough to kill people. There's no way she couldn't have figured out something like this, but she's still ignorant and dumb, either way.


Beatrix wasn't just going to betray Alexandria because she had doubts, all soldiers have doubts. Beatrix made her choice when the need to make one was thrust upon her.No, she already made the choice to ignore her doubts, which is quite clear from "I'll kill all enemies of Alexandria!" right before she changed her choice at the last minute.


Even when Brahne said, "the girl is useless to me" Beatrix was going to deny that meant she was going kill her....which is again, why she's dumb.



I said HOW IT FLIES. I know it smurfing flies, but I don't know which wire will plummet the plane to the ground if I clip it.I dunno man, I think Odin clearly showed her how Eidolons work when he destroyed Cleyra.


As for unjustification, soldiers do horrible things. I'm not going to debate that, it doesn't make her a bad character in game. The fact that Beatrix isn't that different from your typical blindly loyal soldier isn't what makes her a bad character.

What makes her a bad character is the fact that she ignored all signs of doubt that she had and continued to do what she always did until changing her mind at the very last minute over seeing Garnet at risk, even though she already knew that Garnet was at risk.

And the whole "Sorry about killing everybody in Burmecia because Garnet is about to die" as well.


Not quite sure if you know what intangible means

...can't be seen or touched. She did see Odin, you know. And Odin did touch Cleyra.

[PuPu]

So assuming that Beatrix believed Brahne's claims that the Burmecians were plotting against Alexandrians, it would have been difficult to argue against not attacking Cleyra at all.

...so? Countries don't vaporize neutral countries because a few soldiers happened to flee to a neutral country. Not to mention that there weren't many Burmecians at all. They killed almost everyone in Burmecia, remember?


The use of force was obviously of concern to Beatrix but at the end of the day she realised that she wasn't commander in chief. Turning her back on Brahne at that moment would've been very difficult.

...which is like I said, Beatrix knew that it was wrong, but ignored it.



It was only when undeniable proof that Brahne had gone corrupt was offered that Beatrix changed her mind. This proof was the maltreatment of Garnet, someone who she knew to be innocent.

Undeniable proof already occurred with "Garnet's useless, kill her." Not to mention how this still doesn't relate to killing Burmecia, at all.

[Goldenboko]

Wow. I'm like done here. "BEATRIX KNEW THAT ODIN BLEW :bou::bou::bou::bou: UP THEREFORE SHE SHOULD KNOW THE ANATOMY OF A SUMMONER!" Really? I can't even argue with that. You can't even believe that argument. All the info about Summoners came from Kuja and we know how good of a source he is. Your being ridiculous :lol:



So assuming that Beatrix believed Brahne's claims that the Burmecians were plotting against Alexandrians, it would have been difficult to argue against not attacking Cleyra at all.

...so? Countries don't invade neutral countries because a few soldiers happened to flee to a neutral country. Not to mention that there weren't many Burmecians at all. They killed almost everyone in Burmecia, remember?

That's right, countries invade neutral countries to gain more land and power. Don't tell me they don't because you've been in AP US History so you know that countries have done this all the time.

[PuPu]

BEATRIX KNEW THAT ODIN BLEW :bou::bou::bou::bou: UP THEREFORE SHE SHOULD KNOW THE ANATOMY OF A SUMMONER!

Inorite. Several Eidolons containing unbelievable amounts of energy are removed from a girl's body? Sure sounds completely harmless to me.


All the info about Summoners came from Kuja and we know how good of a source he is.

Who needs to know about Summoners? You're forcing out large amounts of energy from a girl's body.


Your being ridiculous :lol:

...says the guy who isn't reading what I said.


That's right, countries invade neutral countries to gain more land and power. Don't tell me they don't because you've been in AP US History so you know that countries have done this all the time.


They don't blow up those neutral countries with A-bombs, like what Alexandria did to Cleyra.

[Depression Moon]

...can't be seen or touched. She did see Odin, you know. And Odin did touch Cleyra.

...can't be seen or touched. She did see Odin, you know. And Odin did touch Cleyra.

also
not definite or clear to the mind as Beatrix or Brahne actually knew the capabilities of said Eidolons, or really much about them apart from what they might have read in ancient books.


incapable of being perceived by the sense of touch, as incorporeal or immaterial things; impalpable.

They couldn't touch Odin physically. Gem versus the incorporeal being

[Goldenboko]

THAT'S RIGHT THEY BLITZKRIEG THEM WITH TANKS! (If you haven't figured it out yet I'm relating the game to WWII and thus Alexandria to Germany). Countries don't make humane decisions, they make decision to get them more power, the soldiers are caught in the crossfire, trying to be loyal to their country.

As for your other arguments, Beatrix held the stone containing Odin in the palm of her hand, it was completely harmless. She has no idea what the extraction process is like until she's seen it that's when she sees how harmful it is. WAIT A SECOND? Isn't that when she changes sides? Yes. Point. Done. Your using facts she had no idea about to make her seem "bad" when in game she learns about the very points your making, she changes.

[PuPu]

as Beatrix or Brahne actually knew the capabilities of said Eidolons, or really much about them apart from what they might have read in ancient books.

But they both knew exactly how powerful and dangerous they were as soon as they saw Odin waste Cleyra. They saw how Eidolons work with their own eyes.


They couldn't touch Odin physically. Gem versus the incorporeal being

The Cleyrans and their city sure was touched by him. Odin isn't the same as other intangible things such as sadness, because the emotion of sadness can't destroy a city in front of one's own eyes.

[PuPu]

THAT'S RIGHT THEY BLITZKRIEG THEM WITH TANKS! (If you haven't figured it out yet I'm relating the game to WWII and thus Alexandria to Germany).

Tank Blitzkreig is an invasion of Germany's army like Alexandria's army invading Cleyra. The difference is, Tank Blitzkreig doesn't instantly vaporize everyone and everything in seconds.


She has no idea what the extraction process is like until she's seen it that's when she sees how harmful it is.

Because she thougt that drawing out several Odin-like beings from Garnet would be completely harmless? lol



WAIT A SECOND? Isn't that when she changes sides?
You mean when she finally decides to not ignore the fact that Brahne said she was going to kill Garnet, just a few minutes ago? Sure is!


Yes. Point. Done.

L.O.L.


Your using facts she had no idea about to make her seem "bad"

Yeah, I'm saying she's stupid for not figuring out these facts. Like her not knowing what the definition of "kill Garnet" means until she personally sees Garnet about to die.


when in game she learns about the very points your making, she changes.

When in game, she already knew that Garnet was going to die, and finally stopped ignoring the signs.

[Depression Moon]

Several Eidolons containing unbelievable amounts of energy are removed from a girl's body? Sure sounds completely harmless to me.

This is a fantasy world. Things can work however. It's described more as magic than energy, so the capabilities of that and how they can work with one's body is an infinite amount of possibilities.
I'm through right now. I got some work to do. It seems like you're arguing just to argue when you really know the deal.

[PuPu]

This is a fantasy world. Things can work however. It's described more as magic than energy, so the capabilities of that and how they can work with one's body is an infinite amount of possibilities.

Magic IS energy, dude. And as it turns out, the result was exactly as one could logically figure out. Removal of those Eidolons did cause severe harm to Garnet, and Beatrix is a fool for not being able to figure out something so obvious.


I'm through right now. I got some work to do. It seems like you're arguing just to argue when you really know the deal.

Yeah, I do know that it turned out exactly as I said and that Beatrix is dumb for not figuring out that "large amount of energy that make things go boom" is forcibly removed from the body of a girl, isn't as harmless as you and everybody else thought that Beatrix believed.

And I do know the deal, that Beatrix is an extremely overrated character that's probably even more overrated than Sephiroth.

[charliepanayi]

Wow, clearly Beatrix is serious business.

[PuPu]

Wow, clearly Beatrix is serious business.

You do realize that you're saying this over a forum that's meant to discuss video games, right?

[charliepanayi]

Wow, clearly Beatrix is serious business.

You do realize that you're saying this over a forum that's meant to discuss video games, right?

*rolls eyes* It's just a jokey comment on how many posts in the thread have suddenly exploded over the last 24 hours. Anyway I think you're determined to hate her character, which is fine, it's your opinion.

[PuPu]

*rolls eyes* It's just a jokey comment on how many posts in the thread have suddenly exploded over the last 24 hours.

Which is probably due to her being so overrated that she's probably even more overrated than Sephiroth.



Anyway I think you're determined to hate her character, which is fine, it's your opinion.

You make it sound like that I'm purposely hating her without any good reason.

[Goldenboko]

Wow, clearly Beatrix is serious business.

Not quite as much as Quina tbh.

[PuPu]

Quina is a joke character, which makes people like her regardless of how bad her character is.

It's like how people like Dethklok and The Lonely Island as well, because they're jokes, regardless of how bad their music is.

/master of the obvious

[Goldenboko]

Serious response to joke post...

*crickets*

[PuPu]

Serious response to joke post...

*crickets*

missing the point.jpg

[charliepanayi]

Not liking Beatrix AND Quina? *shakes head sadly*

[cloud21zidane16]

She was awesome when shes in the party but if she was in it permanently it would make Steiners battle and character role seem a bit pointless:roll2

[PuPu]

Not liking Beatrix AND Quina? *shakes head sadly*

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b81/alien_gundamneo/RI/1261929559132.jpg

[arcanedude34]

Don't bring Batman down to your level with your pointless and annoying copypasta images. Thanks.

If you don't like Beatrix and her story arc, then that's your loss. I found her to be one of the better characters in the game.

[PuPu]

Art thou mad at the fact that I have a differing opinion?


Don't bring Batman down to your level with your pointless and annoying copypasta images. Thanks.

So what is my level anyways? I sure would like to know the difference between me and you. I bet it's a lot!


If you don't like Beatrix and her story arc, then that's your loss. I found her to be one of the better characters in the game.

Yeah, the only time I ever hear people say "well fine man that's just your opinion" is when they can't stand the fact that I have a different opinion than them.

EDIT: ...

Disagreeing with and giving reasons why =/= trolling

VVVVV

[Depression Moon]

*rolls eyes* It's just a jokey comment on how many posts in the thread have suddenly exploded over the last 24 hours.Which is probably due to her being so overrated that she's probably even more overrated than Sephiroth.

I believe it's due more to you starting an argument over it. A couple of other people expressed that they didn't like her. When someone replied to that person he/she just left it at that.



Anyway I think you're determined to hate her character, which is fine, it's your opinion. You make it sound like that I'm purposely hating her without any good reason.[/QUOTE]

It seems like you're just trolling. Like your response to my previous post. You know I didn't mean that, but with that reply and among others, it just seems like an attempt to get people mad.

[Rantz]

I can't believe how many times this has had to be said lately, but enough already. Back on track with the topic.

[Vivisteiner]

You're forcing out extremely powerful creatures from a girl's body. This releases a large release of energy. And last I checked, large releases of energy were enough to kill people. There's no way she couldn't have figured out something like this, but she's still ignorant and dumb, either way.

Beatrix had trust in Brahne. She herself did not know how Eidolons were extracted - she merely trusted that Brahne would not undertake anything that would put her own daughter in danger. Trusting that a mother will treat her daughter with care is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, especially considering Brahne had probably been very nice to Garnet throughout her life.

Another point is this. If you're not a scientist, you don't argue with a scientist about matters of science. Beatrix knew little about Eidolons and she knew that Kuja and Brahne knew far more than her. Who was she to question their judgement on the issue when she had no expertise in that area?

You talk about it as if the fact it would cause harm was common sense. What you fail to realise is that there are a vast number of scenarios where the intuitive answer to a problem is the wrong one. Any intelligent person would know that you cannot make assumptions about what will happen in a given scenario - you need evidence to back up your point. Beatrix had no knowledge on the subject and so she stayed out of it, trusting that Brahne knew what she was doing.


No, she already made the choice to ignore her doubts, which is quite clear from "I'll kill all enemies of Alexandria!" right before she changed her choice at the last minute.

Yeah, that's correct. She had faith in Brahne - and faith like that cannot be changed easily. Her conversion may have seemed overly slow, but in context it was realistic. Having served a Queen for many years, who you believe to be just, you don't suddenly turn your back on them after one dubious comment. Beatrix may have just believed it was a comment borne of anger and frustration with Garnet, rather than it being a genuine threat.

Just because someone says "I'll kill you", it doesn't mean they actually will. In anger, people say a lot of extreme stuff you know they don't really mean.


...so? Countries don't vaporize neutral countries because a few soldiers happened to flee to a neutral country. Not to mention that there weren't many Burmecians at all. They killed almost everyone in Burmecia, remember?

This is the argument Brahne would have presented to Beatrix:


As far as Brahne was concerned, Cleyra was no longer a neutral country. It was harbouring the villain who had plotted against her - the King of Burmecia. And she could not allow the King to remain there, with the remaining Burmecians, in safety whilst he plotted his next uprising against her.

So instead she would crush all hints of a rebellion and utterly destroy any remnants of the Kingdom of Burmecia. The protection offered by Cleyra to these terrorists could only be considered as an act of war. The ally of my enemy can only be my enemy.

It's easy to see how Beatrix could have been convinced that attacking Cleyra was the only viable option.


...which is like I said, Beatrix knew that it was wrong, but ignored it.

But, since she was misled, she no doubt agreed with the cause - just not the means. If she had been perfect that would have been her moment to turn against Queen Brahne, but Beatrix's character is far from perfect and her loyalty allowed her to override any doubts over the extremity of force applied.

It's like the dropping of two nuclear bombs against Japan. As far as I'm concerned that was totally immoral - yet obviously the military did as it was told.

[PuPu]

Beatrix had trust in Brahne. She herself did not know how Eidolons were extracted - she merely trusted that Brahne would not undertake anything that would put her own daughter in danger. Trusting that a mother will treat her daughter with care is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, especially considering Brahne had probably been very nice to Garnet throughout her life.

Beatrix should've already known that Brahne had drastically changed when she met Kuja and started declaring war like crazy.


Another point is this. If you're not a scientist, you don't argue with a scientist about matters of science. Beatrix knew little about Eidolons and she knew that Kuja and Brahne knew far more than her. Who was she to question their judgement on the issue when she had no expertise in that area?

You talk about it as if the fact it would cause harm was common sense. What you fail to realise is that there are a vast number of scenarios where the intuitive answer to a problem is the wrong one. Any intelligent person would know that you cannot make assumptions about what will happen in a given scenario - you need evidence to back up your point. Beatrix had no knowledge on the subject and so she stayed out of it, trusting that Brahne knew what she was doing. Oh give me a smurfing break. How is it not common sense when just about all of the characters figured out that Brahne was going to harm Garnet as well? Even Steiner knew that Brahne was going to harm Garnet and became all "I gotta save the Princess!" after Zorn and Thorn told him that they were ordered to capture her. Hell, Steiner had the same stupidly blind loyalty as Beatrix, it's just that he broke out of it much earlier and even told Beatrix to stop following orders.



Yeah, that's correct. She had faith in Brahne - and faith like that cannot be changed easily. Even Garnet knew that Brahne had been changing, and Beatrix knew it as well, but chose to ignore it.


Her conversion may have seemed overly slow, but in context it was realistic.Actually, it's the opposite. Her conversion was sudden and unrealistic, due to her ignoring all the signs which told her that what she was doing was wrong and that Brahne was going to kill Garnet until having to get slapped in the face by the truth.



Having served a Queen for many years, who you believe to be just, you don't suddenly turn your back on them after one dubious comment.There's also the numerous dubious actions of declaring war and trying to seize control of the continent for years(?) after meeting with Kuja and getting a sudden change of attitude to conquer everything.


Beatrix may have just believed it was a comment borne of anger and frustration with Garnet, rather than it being a genuine threat.Brahne's words of killing Garnet weren't even anger. They were moreso "She's useless now, I don't care about her anymore."



Just because someone says "I'll kill you", it doesn't mean they actually will. In anger, people say a lot of extreme stuff you know they don't really mean. Steiner and all the other characters knew.



As far as Brahne was concerned, Cleyra was no longer a neutral country. It was harbouring the villain who had plotted against her - the King of Burmecia. And she could not allow the King to remain there in safety whilst he plotted his next uprising against her.But the Burmecian King didn't do anything at all, regardless of what Brahne said. There was no secret plot and never was any hints of a secret plot, ever.


So instead she would crush all hints of a rebellion and utterly destroy any remnants of the Kingdom of Burmecia. The protection offered by Cleyra to these terrorists could only be considered as an act of war. It's easy to see how Beatrix could have been convinced that attacking Cleyra was the only viable option.
Beatrix and her soldiers pretty much already killed nearly everybody in Cleyra as well. Brahne nuking them with Odin was overkill and completely unjustified. It's not Beatrix invading Cleyra that's the problem here, it's the fact that Brahne decided to nuke them even after they already got beat up by Beatrix and her soldiers which was wrong.


If she had been perfect that would have been her moment to turn against Queen BrahneThe moment should have been immediately when Brahne said that she was going to kill Garnet.


but Beatrix's character is far from perfect and her loyalty allowed her to override any doubts over the extremity of force applied.And it also allowed Beatrix to ignore the fact that Brahne had drastically changed since meeting with Kuja and started to kill everyone on the continent just for power, when she didn't do so in the past.


It's like the dropping of two nuclear bombs against Japan. As far as I'm concerned that was totally immoral - yet obviously the military did as it was told. The dropping of the a-bombs on Japan are not at all similar to this.

First of all, it was done to prevent American soldiers from losing their lives because they thought that Japan was a threat. Did Alexandria see Cleyra as a threat? Doubtful, considering that the Alexandrian army easily annihilated both Cleyra and Burmecia with little effort.

Secondly, this nuking of the a-bomb wasn't carried out by the Alexandrian army, it was done by Brahne herself.

Thirdly, they invaded Cleyra and killed people, and nuked the survivors. This wasn't a matter of ending a war like the A-bombs of 1945. This was a matter of finishing the job of killing people after already attempting to kill them with an invasion.

[arcanedude34]

Art thou mad at the fact that I have a differing opinion?

Err... nope. Again, your loss.


So what is my level anyways? I sure would like to know the difference between me and you. I bet it's a lot!

Yep. I form opinions and defend them instead of spamming unrelated images and accusing everyone opposing my opinion of being hateful, idiotic morons.




Yeah, the only time I ever hear people say "well fine man that's just your opinion" is when they can't stand the fact that I have a different opinion than them.

So by accepting your differing opinion, I'm really being intolerant and pigheaded? Huh, explains why you fancy yourself such a better person than the rest of us, you never accept anyone's opinion!



Disagreeing with and giving reasons why =/= trolling

Never accused you of trolling. Guilty conscience much?

Listen, is it really such a hard thing to buy that her loyalty would blind her? Hers are not the actions you would take, but you haven't served under Brahne for most of your life. In-game, it's pretty much confirmed that up until a year before the start of the game, Brahne was a benevolent, loved ruler. So to Beatrix, it's sort of assumed that Brahne has some ulterior motive for her actions that will benefit the people of Alexandria.

There's a certain difference between hearing about something and seeing it for yourself. Sure, people tell you all the time about how horrible life is in third world countries, but you don't really get the full impact until you see it yourself. Beatrix had become jaded by her training as a knight. She killed a hundred soldiers single handedly. Death is an every day occurrence to her. Until she sees it for herself, she doesn't really get the full impact of what's going on.

If nothing else, she excels as a good villain for the first half of the game. After your first encounter, you know to fear her. I can tell you that my heart jumped the first time through the game when she showed up in Cleyra, because I knew another ass-whoopin' would follow shortly thereafter.

[PuPu]

Err... nope. Again, your loss.

http://www.fun256.com/photos/927.jpg



Yep. I form opinions and defend them instead of spamming unrelated images and accusing everyone opposing my opinion of being hateful, idiotic morons.

Same here man. I never called anyone those names that you listed right there, so as far as I can tell, you're yelling at nothing.


So by accepting your differing opinion, I'm really being intolerant and pigheaded?

Actually, I've seen that phrase used more often by people who have trouble defending their opinions and using it as a last resort to have themselves save face.



Huh, explains why you fancy yourself such a better person than the rest of us, you never accept anyone's opinion!

At least I don't use ad hominem attacks against the people I debate with, like the way you are doing right now.


Never accused you of trolling. Guilty conscience much?

Was talking to the post below it.



Listen, is it really such a hard thing to buy that her loyalty would blind her?

That's not quite what I have the problem with. Sure, her blind loyalty makes her a typical mindless soldier, but its the fact that she ignored tons and tons of signs that told her to give up her loyalty that's one of the major problems I have.


Hers are not the actions you would take, but you haven't served under Brahne for most of your life.

Steiner did too, and even he wasn't as dumb as her.


In-game, it's pretty much confirmed that up until a year before the start of the game, Brahne was a benevolent, loved ruler. So to Beatrix, it's sort of assumed that Brahne has some ulterior motive for her actions that will benefit the people of Alexandria.

...meaning she was too dopey and loyally blind to think of something called "corruption."


Death is an every day occurrence to her. Until she sees it for herself, she doesn't really get the full impact of what's going on.

...which makes it even more dopey that she got the idea of "Oh my god I'm sorry for killing everybody in Burmecia" from a completely unrelated subject.



If nothing else, she excels as a good villain for the first half of the game. After your first encounter, you know to fear her. I can tell you that my heart jumped the first time through the game when she showed up in Cleyra, because I knew another ass-whoopin' would follow shortly thereafter.

If you say so. She starts out with a typical and boring cold-hearted killer personality who does a completely sudden and unrealistic flip to me.

[Rye]

Seriously? I had enough with the both of you. You are both on your final warning now. One more post like this from either of you and you're getting banned. And don't even try making a feedback thread about it.

This is a thread about a character in a video game. It doesn't warrant this level of anger and debate. If you guys disagree on a point, let it go, or take it to your PMs to debate it further, but stop it in this thread. Rantzien already told you guys to stop and you didn't listen.

I'm closing this thread. I'm sorry that your thread was ruined, Mel.