The Orphans (spoilers)

[Future Esthar]

The final boss is called Orphan.
Now to something interesting:
Who are the orphans on this game?

[Goldenboko]

Essentially every human and Fal'Cie in this game is considered an "Orphan" of the Maker. Or at least based off of what we know of the entire Fal'Cie point of view. The Maker is the creator of Humans and Fal'Cie and by leaving them, he's essentially "Orphaned" the races to survive on their own, which makes Orphan a perfect choice for the Final Boss. Especially since the Fal'Cie are so willing to be rejoined with their creator that they're willing to attempt to use their Brethren as sacrifices.

[Future Esthar]

There is a more deeper and secret storyline GoldenBoko.
The Orphans are Lightning,Serah,Snow,Fang and Vanille.

[Goldenboko]

Yes, they are, considering they are included in that whole "human" catagory ;)

[arcanedude34]

No, yeah, Goldenboko's right. No more crackpot theories, Funetik Esthar

[demondude]

Not content with FFVIII, FE must smurf the FFXIII forum up too. Didn't this guy even admit he was a troll?

[No.78]

I don't get it?

[Loony BoB]

There is nothing wrong with anything that Future Esthar has posted in this thread.

The orphans, of the playable characters, are correctly identified in Future Esthar's post. Obviously Serah is not playable. Other NPCs which are orphans (in the literal sense, none of the Maker business) include Gadot, Lebreaux and the other members of NORA which I forget the names of.

[Future Esthar]

Exactly.I was being simple and objective.Not every character is orphan in the strict sense(i.e. they have parents).
I was not talking on the broader sense.
Also:
Hope is motherless and his father is probably dead.
Nothing is said about Sazh´s parents.

[Loony BoB]

We have no proof stating that his father is probably dead. He was with the Cavalry, yes, but they would not have gained anything from bringing him into Edenhall, so I imagine they would have left him in a ship of theirs somewhere - meaning he's probably alive, since those in ships would have the highest chances of survival.

[arcanedude34]

I assumed Hope's dad survived (another thing the ending neglected to show us >_>) and when was it ever said that Snow's parents are dead? I think Lightning, Fang, Serah, Snow, and Vanille, being over 18, would be too old to be considered orphans anyway. So, no, none of them are orphans.

[Loony BoB]

NORA are described as a group of orphans, if I recall accurately.

EDIT: Snow's DataLog states "Without a family to take care of him, Snow was raised in a Sanctum facility."

[Goldenboko]

Where all this is true, I believe the choice of the name Orphan for the Final Boss is due to the Maker situation. This would also be a much deeper plot than being named after the main characters as it would tie the Final Boss's name into it's reason for creation.

[arcanedude34]

NORA are described as a group of orphans, if I recall accurately.

EDIT: Snow's DataLog states "Without a family to take care of him, Snow was raised in a Sanctum facility."
Ah, my bad. But still.

[Future Esthar]

The question is:
The fact that most of the characters are orphans IS NOT a coincidence.
Also it hints at the Seed reference.

[Loony BoB]

Most of them are orphans in most FF games these days (I think?), that's just standard issue. I'd even go as far as to say that most games (ie, not just FF) feature orphans.

I don't think it's that big of a SeeD reference.

I agree that the reason Orphan is called Orphan is probably because the Maker left.

[Goldenboko]

The question is:
The fact that most of the characters are orphans IS NOT a coincidence.
Also it hints at the Seed reference.


FF1 - Characters have no personality - ORPHAN
FFII - Main heroes have each other for a family - ORPHAN
FFIV - Cecil is adopted by the King - ORPHAN
FFV - Bartz's mother dies while he is young, copy and paste for father a few years later - ORPHAN
FFVI - Terra - OPRHAN
FFVII - Family is dead after Nibilhilm (too lazy to spell correctly) incident - ORPHAN
FFVIII - Y'all are ORPHANS
FFIX - Genome, adopted by Baku, no biological parents - ORPHAN
FFX - Mommy dies and daddy never loved you - ORPHAN
FFXII - Recks was your brother and your only family, killed in first 5 minutes of game. Guess. ORPHAN

[Loony BoB]

My character in FFXI was an orphan because I said so.

[Future Esthar]

But in FFXIII most of them are orphans.
Not every person on Cocoon is an orphan.
Coincidences don´t exist.

[Goldenboko]

But in FFXIII most of them are orphans.
Depends on your definition of Orphan or more specifically whether or not there is an age limit, in FFXII Vaan and Penelo where both Orphans, Balthiar became an Orphan after he killed his father, Ashe became an Orphan when her father was murdered, Basch could be considered an Orphan as he abandoned his family to serve Dalmasca, and Fran could be considered an Orphan abandoned by The Wood. Boom, every freaking main character.


Not every person on Cocoon is an orphan.
Coincidences don´t exist.

I agree, but Cliches do exist. Main heroes and heroines being orphans or orphaned is an overused plot device to free the heroes from responsibilities and is the reason Square uses it all the time.

[Future Esthar]

FFI-Not orphans
FFII-Not orphans????
FFIII-Orphans
FFIV-Not Orphans
FFVI-Not Orphans
FFVII-Not Orphans
FFVIII-Orphans
FFIX-Not Orphans
FFX-Not Orphans
FFXII-Orphans
FFXIII-Orphans

4 FF in which MOST OF the characters are orphans.

[Goldenboko]

Um wrong? FFII = Orphans. Every main character that fights in the final battle. That makes it at least 5 out of 13, which is a solid 38%. (More than a freaking third of these games).

Also, FFVII, Clouds and Tifa's parents where killed, RedXIII's entire sideplot was about his dead father. Marlene was orphaned because her father had too much "blood on his hands" or whatever that Dyne sideplot was about. Hell, Sephiroth was even Orphaned from his parents.

smurf, FFIX Vivi has no parents whatsoever (unless you count Kuja lulz) and I can't help but feel Quina reproduces asexually.

There is no way you could deny that a freaking LOT of Orphans have been used in this series.

[Future Esthar]

Right.FFII

FFVII doesn´t have enough orphans.

[Goldenboko]

So now Future Esthar is the authority on all things FF, so he gets to say that the four most important characters (Cloud, Aerith, Tifa, and Sephiroth) being orphans, "Isn't enough". Right. I'll keep that in mind next time I plan on bringing a logical debate into a thread created by him.

[Future Esthar]

about 50%.Fine.Still little.
This thread is useless now.
But I will be back to this subject when I aproach the bigger subject.

[Goldenboko]

50% is not little. 50% is half. 50% cannot be smaller than it's other half. Something happening 50% of the time means it is common.

[arcanedude34]

Coincidences don´t exist.
Yes. Yes they do. You, my good sir, fail. *smack smack smack*

[No.78]

It's called a 'theme' or a 'motif'.

It has no marvellous significance to FFXIII.

[Future Esthar]

Alright,let me state the purpose of this thread.
On another thread I stated Cocoon is Pulse on the future.
For back up look the other thread.

Orphan is therefore Light+Serah+Snow+Fang+Vanille+Hope+Sazh+Cid after they became Cie´th.
The theme of this game is free will.If they succumb to despair they will fuse and become Orphan.
Hence the name Orphan.They are orphans and could become Orphan.
Isn´t it strange that this "Fal´Cie " has a focus?
No.Barthandelus always wanted you to become Orphan and rule over the world.
But since Orphan was arrested on Cocoon´s shell (by means untold) and the characters didn´t fell into dispair he used them to release Orphan and wished that the latter defeated them.
Cocoon represents the dark future timeline.
This is exactly what happens on FFVIII.
Adel is an amalgamation of the main characters+Edea+Seifer.
Why are these characters chosen and not others?
I don´t know but Versus will probably explain that.

[Goldenboko]

Then what by God do you think the Final Boss is? You realize that you kill Orphan. The Ending Boss is specifically called Orphan IN. BATTLE.

[Future Esthar]

You kill in on an alternative timeline.

[Goldenboko]

You kill in on an alternative timeline.

I'm assuming this says, "him" in which case this is completely false because time travel isn't even slightly hinted in game.

In fact Cocoon being the future of Pulse makes no sense. From all hints in game, the human population of Pulse went extinct. If anything it'd make more sense for Cocoon to be the past of Pulse, which is also inaccurate, seeing as, again, time travel is never mentioned within the storyline.

[Future Esthar]

To tell you the thruth,I am unsure which is the thruth but I am certain is one of them.

[Loony BoB]

Orphan is Orphan. Orphan is part of what powers Eden, and Eden was around since long in the past as it powers Cocoon. It was written in the story that long in the past - not the future (and there is not a hint of time travel throughout the story, so we can safely disregard any suggestion on that end) - that Cocoon was made using materials from Pulse. There is no way that Cocoon was created in any time but the past, as to say otherwise would be to render all the stories about the collection of materials and the creation of Cocoon false and pointless, effectively disregarding the plot altogether.

Orphan could not have been created at any time but the distant past when Cocoon was created or even earlier. It is therefore impossible for Orphan to be made up of humans. It should also be noted that fal'Cie are created by Gods, not by fal'Cie. Cie'th are failed l'Cie. l'Cie were created after the Gods had left. Therefore it is not possible that fal'Cie were created from Cie'th or l'Cie, as they did not exist at the time that fal'Cie were created.

Sorry dude, this theory just doesn't have anything going for it. You'd have to come up with a theory that is more in line with the plot of the story. Perhaps you should study the DataLogs for a while longer.

[Future Esthar]

But that´s exactly the question.Orphan is not a Fal´Cie.
Considering Fal´Cie are corrupt and humans know about things through them I can only conclude that most of what people know is a lie.

[Loony BoB]

Orphan is a fal'Cie because it is listed as a fal'Cie under the DataLogs. This much is fact. The enemy DataLogs are accurate.

You don't need to mark spoilers in this conversation, btw, people. The title makes it clear that there are spoilers within regardless.

[Future Esthar]

They are based on information given by Fal´cie.Therefore it could be fake.

[Skyblade]

They are based on information given by Fal´cie.Therefore it could be fake.

What? Since when? What evidence is there supporting that statement.

[Loony BoB]

They are based on information given by Fal´cie.Therefore it could be fake.
That is inaccurate. The Enemy DataLogs are 100% generated by the characters.

[No.78]

I can't see the logic behind creating Cocoon and sending it back in time.

[Future Esthar]

I refer to the storyline based datalogs.Some of them keep changing based on Fal´cie information.Sometimes they even contradict previous information.We conclude therefore that either the recent information is false or the previous information is false but not both(since they are contradictory).
Conclusion:The Datalog lies at some point.

[VeloZer0]

The data log is a summary of the plot up until that point. Obviously they aren't going to give a plot twist away until the plot has actually twisted.

[Future Esthar]

But most of it is based on Fal´Cie(liers) information.

[Loony BoB]

But none of the information in the enemy DataLogs is based on fal'Cie information, it is all based on factual evidence. Orphan is listed under the fal'Cie listing. Orphan is most certainly a fal'Cie, this much is as true as saying the characters wear clothing.

[Future Esthar]

But this don´t apply to the characters and some others datalogs.

[Skyblade]

I refer to the storyline based datalogs.Some of them keep changing based on Fal´cie information.Sometimes they even contradict previous information.We conclude therefore that either the recent information is false or the previous information is false but not both(since they are contradictory).
Conclusion:The Datalog lies at some point.

I admit I haven't finished the game yet, but, while a large number of the datalogs are updated, I have not seen any which list incorrect information at all.

Datalogs talking about Vanille, for example, before you learn that she remembered her past life as a l'Cie, only say that she "seemed" to have forgotten everything. They do this often. They say that something appears a certain way, never that it actually does. So when it is updated, the original information is still true.

[Future Esthar]

The Datalog says for example that Disley is subordinated to Eden.
But near the end it says it gave orders to Eden.

[Draniei]

Why are these characters chosen and not others?
I don´t know but Versus will probably explain that.
[/spoiler]

FFXIII Versus won't explain anything in regards to FFXIII. Though they take place in the same world, neither has anything to do with eachother.

[Zora]

I highly doubt that Orphan is NOT a fal'cie, HOWEVER, I do feel it's nevertheless important to point out that Berthandulus does infuse itself with Orphan. This means that enemy logs are null and void, since if Orphan wasn't a fal'cie, Barthendulus infusing himself with Orphan would have made Orphan a fal'cie by the time you fought him. Furthermore, his actual datalog does not actually state Orphan is a fal'cie beyond organizing him under fal'cie, and instead refers to him as a mysterious being. Still, I strongly doubt that Orphan is not a fal'cie.

Likewise though, while it is true that other Final Fantasy's have had orphans, being an orphan was not a motif in any game except XIII and perhaps VIII (Although, for VIII, it may have been shoddy writing). The idea of being an orphan, or at least being abandoned, comes up and up again both in history and dialogue. In other Final Fantasy's, it can be inferred through history and is rarely brought up in dialogue. However, I highly doubt there is any hidden plotline hidden in that motif, but I do believe the motif is part of the game's theme if anything.

[champagne supernova]

Orphan is most definitely a Fal'Cie. His purpose is to power Eden (but I'm not sure about the other Fal'Cie). Eden is the nexus between all the other Fal'Cie, making them interact with each other in a way that Cocoon worked. By killing Orphan, the Fal'Cie stopped operating in this manner, and Cocoon came crashing down in spectacular fashion.

The whole Fal'Cie thing on Cocoon reminded me of the Death Gate Cycle series of books. But the clear thing is that Orphan is a Fal'Cie created with the sole purpose of acting like a battery.