On Orphan and Barthandelus (Major Spoilers)

[finaloblivion]

I KNOW THIS IS AN EXTREMELY RAMBLY AND LONG THREAD, BUT ANY INPUT OR RESPONSES WOULD BE VERY MUCH APPRECIATED. I'm writing a report on the Crystal Mythos so far and I'd love to see if you guys have any answers or ideas about what im askin here...

So, we all know that Barthandelus is Lord Sovereign or whatever of the fal'Cie, meaning that he can direct fal'Cie in their duties and rule over them essentially. So....digging into the datalog, it's said that the Fell Lindzei constructed Cocoon and lured men there with lies and promises of protection, so can it be assumed that Lindzei is Barthandelus? Or the owl is ACTUALLY Barthandelus, and the other form is merely a ruse. Or, is Orphan Lindzei?

NOW, the question is, is it ever specified that Orphan is a fal'Cie? At first we're made to believe that Eden is what controls Cocoon, then we find out behind Eden is Orphan, and behind it is Barthandelus. Is that an easy answer? Obviously Orphan keeps Cocoon afloat, but is it ever said directly that it is a fal'Cie? If it is, I just don't remember, and I'd thank anyone for slapping the memory back to me.

But if Orphan isn't a fal'Cie, that would slightly solidify the idea that Orphan is Lindzei, as Lindzei is who created Cocoon and would asummedly be the one who keeps it floating. It also says "This is the day that Barthandelus built Cocoon for..." so I don't know. I know the answers are there if you look hard enough but this was one thing that kind of stumped me and led me in circles

FINAL POINT then ill be moving on with my life, if Orphan is a fal'Cie and fal'Cie are created by the gods, not other fal'Cie, then what was Orphan's task before Cocoon was created? Or...OOPS, so Barthandelus made Cocoon, made Eden, made Orphan, so HE IS THE GOD LINDZEI....right?! Or is he just a fal'Cie and Lindzei's still running amok somewhere?!?! There's the Goddess Etro (Goddess of Death) which protected Cocoon the first time from Ragnarok; Lindzei; and the Maker is supreme but he's gone.

If anyone can follow this...i applaud and thank you

[Future Esthar]

According to the game Orphan is a Fal´Cie

[Loony BoB]

Lindzei being, in my view, one of the many Gods of this planet, would probably be fairly indestructable by comparison to Orphan, who was only about as strong as a strong animal on Pulse.

The DataLogs also identify Orphan as a fal'Cie.

There were theories that Barthandelus was Lindzei according to the guide, however I find that completely contradictory and the fact that they only mention it in the guide as a passing idea and also the context it was mentioned in suggests to me that they only said that as a Pulse citizen's theory - ie, "Barthandelus is Lindzei himself!" sort of like how some people in WWII may have said "Hitler is Satan himself!".

Orphan's task within Cocoon is to give power to Eden. It is entirely possible that, when on Pulse and created by the Gods, he was tasked with giving power to locales on Pulse.

[Ezme]

Do we ever find anything out about the life span of fal cie? Could be lindzie was a falcie but died. Lindzie was around when the maker was (Does everyone else infer the maker is called Pulse? Hence the planet Gran Pluse? saw that in an analetic) and wanted him back so built cocoon and placed other falcie to run it, maybe her power was to change falcie natures, but she got old and died.

What's the name of the flying falcie you kill at the tower? They don't know his purpose and I kinda assumed the tower was used to construct cocoon. It's old, broken, has no current purpose.

I do like FFXIII theorising I must admit. :)

Feel free to poke holes or say I'm onto something :P

[Loony BoB]

The Maker is indeed called Pulse, and the fal'Cie named the planet after him. There is no detailed lifespan for fal'Cie, although it can be assumed they are able to live forever in the right circumstances - this is their "advantage" to balance themselves with the human "advantage" of free will/choice.

The theory regarding the tower and it being used to construct Cocoon is an interesting one.
EDIT: The DataLog for the tower is as follows...

This towering spire was built by the fal'Cie in ages past. While the purpose of the structure is unclear, its original height suggests that the mightly beings sought to pierce even the heavens in their insatiable quest for expansion.

No matter the reason for its construction, the tower now lies in ruin, its great spine snapped, and its crumbling interior serving as a lair for the fal'Cie Dahaka.
With this in mind, it is definitely possible that it was used to construct Cocoon or alternatively that it was constructed in an attempt to reach the heavens and find the Maker.

[Ezme]

Finding the maker and building cocoon being one and the same it could be both. Make a big tower, no maker, so we'll build cocoon to farm humans but put it on top of big tower so it resembles one of those funkey trees. Then either tower breaks so they float it or float it so break the tower, a.k.a burning the bridge.

Ooooo m'brain's on fire this morning :P

[Rozaheku]

Was it ever explained why Lindzei created Cocoon? And why don't want the fal'Cie to summon him back instead of Pulse?

[Loony BoB]

Cocoon was created by evil fal'Cie (not Lindzei himself, to my knowledge) in an attempt to bring back the Maker, supposedly. I'm unsure if Lindzei definitely had something to do with it, or if it's just a case of Gran Pulse folklore of "Lindzie created Cocoon" which could be on par with people on Earth saying "the Devil created _____".

It's possible that they are actually not Lindzei's fal'Cie but rather fal'Cie that are branded to be "Lindzei's children" just because they are of a different viewpoint to those on Gran Pulse (sort of like one religion calling another religion "the devil's children" despite believing in the same God).

Alternatively, it's possible that they are trying to bring back Lindzei rather than the Maker, I guess. I don't actually have my guide or the game on hand at the moment, I'm just spouting theories. :D

[Rozaheku]

Heh, I'm pretty sure I read in the Datalog that he was "Cocoon's architect" or something along those lines. I know Barthendelus also is called something like that but I doubt the two are one and the same because this Lindzei left Cocoon for reasons unknown.

Was it ever stated that Pulse created all the fal'Cie or are other gods capable of that as well?

[Ezme]

How about Lindzi is a prophet of the maker, many different religions call their followers "children."

Lindzi was the prophet/god of the religion of man (assume then don't know about Pulse) so falcie create cocoon as their human farm but lure humans there with tale of lindzi, thus the origins of the analectics. Then as with all things, history gets muddled.

I do like these holes now I must admit, it's a bit like real world history without the need for scrabbling around in the dirt with people with beards.

[Loony BoB]

Lindzei is often described as a demon, I do wonder if he was ever actually described as a God on par with Pulse/Maker. It's of my opinion that Lindzei is not on par with God, and I also still am sceptical over whether or not he actually created any fal'Cie or if he merely got existing fal'Cie to switch allegiances one way or another.

[Rozaheku]

As our fal'Cie are the children of Hallowed Pulse, so are the fal'Cie who lurk within Cocoon the brood of Lindzei.
But all gods are not alike.
Lindzei is cunning and false; sovereign to snakes and fiends; an anathema to be abhorred.
Cocoon fal'Cie are of Fell Lindzei's line, yet that did not spare them. They were betrayed all the same; left orphans when their Succubus fled this earthly realm.



-- A Call to Arms
I looked up the Analects and this one seems to clear up some questions. Cocoon fal'Cie were created by Lindzei and Pulse fal'Cie by the maker.

[Loony BoB]

I was just looking at the Analects myself. :D

So for me, I imagine that the fal'Cie of Cocoon were not trying to bring back the Maker known as Pulse, but trying to bring back their Maker, which is Lindzei.

However, Analect X is the one that interests me most. It suggests that there is a lot more going on than might initially be let on in this story. I don't like to suggest insane theories, but I do think that there is definitely a "greater cause" theme running through that Analect, although I also don't think Square Enix would have put too much thought into it - rather, they would prefer to "put it in there" and let us wonder. :)

[Ezme]

Room for a prequel :p

[finaloblivion]

I love the theories guys! And some of these answers definitely cleared up some of my questions. Especially love the Tower being used to help create Cocoon, or one of the Pulse fal'Cie's attempts to ascend to "The Beyond" and reunite with Pulse. That could have been the Pulse fal'Cie's substitute for genocide on Cocoon to bring back their particular god.

Also the entry about Cocoon fal'Cie being Lindzei's creation and vice versa for Pulse, is definitely a help. HOWEVER, I'm not yet ready to completely abolish the idea that Barthandalus is Lindzei, but I see what you're saying Loony Bob with the Hitler analogy. It clearly says in the Datalog that Barthandalus created Cocoon for the reason of throwing the doors to the beyond open and summoning back the maker, and it also says that clearly Lindzei is the one who created Cocoon and it's fal'Cie. But, AHA...interesting theory:

Both Pulse and Lindzei dwelled on Pulse, then Lindzei left Pulse and created Cocoon, maybe then with the innocent intention of simply giving people a more sheltered and protected life than that of a life on Pulse (as it was clearly a savage existence). Lindzei creates Bart (ring leader of fal'Cie and their duties) and Orphan (created to keep Cocoon afloat and sustain it's energy), and, along with Hallowed Pulse, left their creations to thrive or whatever on their own. Bart's intentions are to destroy Orphan and sacrifice millions of lives - the sacrifice throwing open the doors to the beyond, and Orphan's death being a specific reason for Lindzei to return and see what the smurf happened to Cocoon...thus reuniting fal'Cie with (in Bart's and other Cocoon fal'Cie's case) their Maker.

I like that theory, but I'm still left wondering if Lindzei and Pulse were equals on a Godliness scale, or if Pulse was the supreme Maker and created other Gods like Lindzei and Etro. You could almost look at that in a Biblical sense (as much as I hesitate), like Pulse was supreme and created Lindzei and others in his image and from bits of his personality, and Lindzei (like Lucifer) wished to create his/her own kingdom away from the Maker's influence.

Or, you could even say that The Maker created both Pulse and Lindzei and Etro, and that's that. The fal'Cie are trying to bring back the Supreme God Commander lol
Sorry I know my entries are long as hell but I'm really interested in the Fabula Mythos! I think it's an awesome backdrop to the games if you choose to pay attention and figure it out. You know it's going to be explained much more in Versus and Agito, as Noctis and Stella are discussing the painting (which is of the Goddess Etro), and how they can see the light of the dead, or the light of the beyond. Which to me is ironic because beings like Bart are willing sacrifice millions of lives in order to glimpse the beyond and the Maker, and Noctis and Stella are like, "Yeah I've seen the light. Whatevs" Just kinda makes you wonder what kind of power in context of the Mythos those two have....KEEP THE THEORIES COMIN GUYS!

PS i am so down for a prequel taking place hundreds of years before the story, maybe following Vanille and Fang before they became chosen to be Ragnarok! and you can pretty much bet a sequel is happening, because Kitase and Toriyama said it depended on western sales...and its the fastest and one of the best selling entries over here in the west, despite the criticism. I love this game so I personally welcome it. give it about three years and for Versus an Agito to clear out and theyll announce for FNC titles. there's supposed to be 3-4 more judging by that graph in Famitsu...

[Shiny]

Please do not post so much in succession, finaloblivion. That's what we have the edit/delete button for.

[Loony BoB]

I'm not sure that the other games will actually exist in the same universe and have the same history as they were designed by entirely different teams and will likely have their own stories and backgrounds.

I'm still deeply interested in Analect X, which suggests that the arks were created long beforehand and potentially by the Gods themselves. With that in mind, it raises the question as to whether or not the Gods wished to move humanity to a different world (hence the word 'Ark') or alternatively if they were breeding an army for a war in a different world, hence the Gods disappearing (off to fight the war, or possibly already defeated?).

There was clearly some purpose to these things which is left almost completely unanswered.

[Ezme]

Yay my theory was liked! I normally spout tripe! lol

There's quite a bit of duality going on throughout the game so I'm quite happy with the concept of Pulse and Lindzi being on the same godliness (love the word) level.

I like the idea of lindzi creating superpope, *cough* I mean barthandalus, with the nature of creating cocoon. Natures are an important part of creation on Gran Pulse. The Gods could only create life and not protect it hence they create the pulse falcie who aren't really bothered by anything except terraforming then lindzi creates bathy to make cocoon then the other falcie with their respective specific purposes.


I'd like something about fang and vanilles first focus, not ness a full game but a short film, DLC short game that gives them more story. Or a film of the prequel novel thingie. Then again I always wanted something following braska, jecht and auron too!

I thought of more things to day.... but....neighbours is on and I got distracted :p


*thinks* . . . I shall return! :D

[finaloblivion]

sorry, had a lot to say and i made this thread so i could say it! i honestly didn't know if a super smurfin long response would be better than two shorter ones...but ill try to keep them a little shorter, apologies.

yes, analect X is definitely one of the more thought provoking entries. it's one of those things in the game that is completely left a mystery, and i like your theory loony bob in that the arks were created on cocoon and pulse so as to maybe move humans to another world should something cataclysmic happen? or even for war...but with whom? it's definitely hinted at that they're purpose was something far grander than just a l'cie training ground. they say they're created for the war against cocoon, but their existence far outlives that of cocoon itself so there's something else to ponder about.

i think it's been said that they're in the same universe that believes in the same mythos, not necessarily the same history of that mythos tho. that's one of the things the different directors were given to interpret as their own and implement into the stories and the different worlds in their own way. like i said, etro is mentioned in the analects in XIII, and Noctis and Stella are discussing the painting at the party, which is of Etro. i also believe that green transparent entity that you fly through on your way back to cocoon is etro herself, but i may be wrong. that same entity is shown in the analect that is describing her however.

[Future Esthar]

I read on the internet that Noctis and Hope look a lot alike.

[Loony BoB]

Only as much as all characters FFVII onwards with spikey, short hair look alike. So you can put that down for Cloud, Hope, Noctis, Squall, Tidus... the list goes on.

[Future Esthar]

I agree that they look alike.Everything look alike(not talking about personality here).

[finaloblivion]

uhh...

anyway, it says Bart created Cocoon in the Chapter 13: Orphan's Cradle datalog entry in the Events section, and it's also abundantly clear that Lindzei is the creator of Cocoon. bleh.

after all is said and done, this is the only thing left that really truly confuses me. the official guide does say that they could be one and the same, but your right bob it's only as a passing idea. i was hoping maybe we could come to a consensus on this so i could have some peace of mind lol, but i know that that just might be one of the things that we're left to wonder about this game. thanks so much for your contributions, and i'll throw it out there that if there are any other theories or loose ends that people may have (such as the arks and taijin's tower) then let's put em up here and discuss some more! me likey talkey

EDIT: I had some more ideas to add after i re-read some of the Analects, but I didn't want to post another long response in succession to my other one. I read Analect I, The Vanished Gods and I kind of realized that some of our answers are here. We know there was Lindzei, Pulse and Etro and according to this at least one more. From kind of connecting the dots and reading other datalog entries, my theory is this: Luminous = Lindzei; Stout = Pulse; Fool = Etro and then one other at least. It then talks of the Maker, which is obviously supreme over all of them. And in the Analect titled Fell Lindzei, it says that even her fal'Cie were orphaned when their Succubus (I'm assuming this means Lindzei) left the Earth. SOOOO....Pulse and Lindzei are below the Maker, Pulse is not one and the same as the Maker, and neither is Lindzei. So that sort of clears that up. And since Lindzei is written to have left, then Barthandelus is not Lindzei....but that's also according to Pulsian history, which could be very clouded and bias. After all....the greatest trick the Devil ever played was making people believe he didn't exist. Ooooo! That also leads me to another theory about Bart's OWL, but it's late and I've written A LOT. sorry for another long response guys :p

[Future Esthar]

Dahaka is a flying snake.
Lindzei is a snake.
Food for thought.

[Loony BoB]

Dahaka isn't a flying snake. He may have the same shape as a snake, but I would say he is more similar to the Chinese style dragon.

[Rozaheku]

Dahaka is a fal'Cie, Lindzei is a god so I don't think they are one and the same.

[Serapy]

I think Noctis is a reincarnation of Cid Raine.

[Loony BoB]

Why do you think that?

[Future Esthar]

You also think they look alike?
There must be a relation between them.

And a chinese flying dragon is a type of snake.

[Loony BoB]

You also think they look alike?
There must be a relation between them.
Just like Wakka and Gadot! Of course, that means that pretty much every FF character is related because they all look alike. Which is also impossible.

And a chinese flying dragon is a type of snake.
No, it's not. It's a dragon. In fact, they're more often referred to as worms (okay, wyrms) than they are snakes.

[Future Esthar]

Dahaka isn't a flying snake. He may have the same shape as a snake, but I would say he is more similar to the Chinese style dragon.

Subjective opinion.

[Rozaheku]

Lindzei being refered to as a snake is more a symbolic meaning then an actual description. Keep in mind that she is also refered to as a Succubus and I'm pretty sure Dahaka isn't a smexy demon seductress. Let alone a she.

[Future Esthar]

What is a Succubus?I read it on the anaclets but don´t know what it is.

[Rozaheku]

Haha, a Succubus is a female demon who secudes men in their sleep. The male variant is called an Incubus. They are often associated with vampires.

[Future Esthar]

Hun?
Chocobos?
Just joking:)

[DarkOrigins]

Don't trust the datalog too much, it contradicts the story and itself a few times throughout. I especially like getting into a new chapter, opening the datalog and reading exactly what I haven't done yet.

[Ezme]

Don't trust the datalog too much, it contradicts the story and itself a few times throughout. I especially like getting into a new chapter, opening the datalog and reading exactly what I haven't done yet.

I quite like some of the datalog contradicting, it's like real world folk law, doesn't always make sence.

[finaloblivion]

I agree with Welsh Wonder, as far the Analects go with the contradictions it's like real history...vague, and open for interpretation by different people who view it. But as far as contradictions in the Events and Characters sections, they are updated as you find out more details through out the story. So actually....by the time you're in Chapter 11 to 13, everything in those sections is clear and totally non-contradictory.

[Future Esthar]

Don't trust the datalog too much, it contradicts the story and itself a few times throughout.
As I already explained many times.

[Loony BoB]

Certain parts contradict only so they don't spoil the story, and even then you'll often find that don't actually contradict each other so much as they say "It looks like..." or "It seems as though..." but doesn't actually state things as fact.

The analects are certainly not hard evidence to anything, though, no more than such things are in the real world.

However, to say all of the DataLogs should be dismissed is to render them utterly pointless, and I think doing so only makes one look like a fool.