Grandmothers hypothesis(spoilers)

[Future Esthar]

We know that:

1-Fang and Vanille were on crystal form which means they are very old but they appearance didn´t change.
2-Many humans from Pulse went to Cocoon after it was created.

It is therefore possible that Fang and Vanille´s husbands decided to depart against their will and even get divorced.Alongside with their child.

Vanille was not much young when she turned to crystal either.
Her age probably was enough to marry on Gran Pulse and have children.

They may not remember that either.


Judging from the character interactions and personalities I would say
that Fang is Claire and Serah´s grandmother.And Vanille is Nora´s mother.

Whether they are grandmother or grandgrand mother depend on many factors.

[Flying Arrow]

I think you've hit the nail on the head with this one. :)

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

You realize that Ragnarök's last attack was centuries ago, right? Also, the creation Cocoon was before Vanille or Fang were born, at least that's the impression given. Also, there'd been no way for anyone to get from Pulse to Cocoon after it was created, more over after Ragnarok's attack.

[Ragebrain The Enraged]

That's too lost odyssey dude. :D

[G13]

You realize that Ragnarök's last attack was centuries ago, right? Also, the creation Cocoon was before Vanille or Fang were born, at least that's the impression given. Also, there'd been no way for anyone to get from Pulse to Cocoon after it was created, more over after Ragnarok's attack.

This. Vanille and Fang could not have been born when Cocoon was created so therefore their "husbands" could not have gone to live on/in it.

Also, when does it say that Fang was married? I'm only on Chapter 11 but I'm pretty sure it would have been mentioned by then. And if Vanille weren't married it's probably safe to say she didn't have a kid, so she couldn't be Nora's mother, not to mention that would to mean Nora was like 300 years old.

[Rozaheku]

Why exactly would you include Hope's mom is this theory?

[doeboyfresh14]

where did this theory come from period. Vanille is like 19 and fang is like early-mid 20's i doubt either of them were married or had kids. Plus nora is blond while vanille has red hair. my head is spinning from this one. :confused:

not too mention they are the same age as when they were turned to crystal. You don't age at that point because your body ceases to live. It's like in austin powers when they freeze him and bring him back. he's the same age as he was in the 60's. He didn't turn 30 years older after they unfroze him. (sorry best example i could think of...)

[Future Esthar]

The point of this thread is that they were descendents of Fang and Vanille.As I said:


Whether they are grandmother or grandgrand mother depend on many factors.



This. Vanille and Fang could not have been born when Cocoon was created so therefore their "husbands" could not have gone to live on/in it.

I think it´s possible to depart after it was made.
It´s not like everyone on Pulse suddenly hates Cocoon without exception.


Also, when does it say that Fang was married? I'm only on Chapter 11 but I'm pretty sure it would have been mentioned by then.

They didn´t remember everything.Even if they do I am certain they would not like to talk about it.


Also, there'd been no way for anyone to get from Pulse to Cocoon after it was created, more over after Ragnarok's attack.

Some eidolons and animals can fly.Cocoon is not a planet on outer space but an artificial world on the atmosphere of Pulse.
I am sure the sanctum Fal´Cie has a monitoring system that watches over the shell and decides if someone is a friend and foe letting them pass on the former´s condition.They are not dumb like the citizens.
It didn´t change after Ragnarok.


not too mention they are the same age as when they were turned to crystal.

You misunderstand.They had the kids BEFORE crystalizing.


Why exactly would you include Hope's mom is this theory?


Because all the characters belongs to either Fang or Vanille´s family.

Sara and Claire descends from Fang.

Hope and Snow descends from Vanille.

I will show you soon that Sazh is a Farron.

This is important to the storyline because there is a criterium which the Fal´Cie uses to select the ones to become l´Cie.

And what better than to pickup persons who belong to the same family as the ones fated to become Ragnarok and destroy Cocoon?

[G13]

I think it´s possible to depart after it was made.
It´s not like everyone on Pulse suddenly hates Cocoon without exception.

I see you still haven't offered any real proof as to how you came up with this. If it were possible to go to Cocoon after it was created it would have been explained. Even if they could get to Cocoon they most likely would have been killed before they could get in. In the opening scenes of the game we see an entire city of people being carted off to their deaths because they lived next to a fal'Cie, so I'm assuming that if someone from Pulse was like "Hey can I come in?" they're more likely get a bullet to the brain than a hug and a place to stay. Why on earth would they willingly let a potential enemy into their world? And please don't say "Their smart enough to realize friend from foe" again. To use a real life scenario, look at how most Americans didn't trust Muslims after 9/11 or, vice versa, at how many middle easterners don't like the U.S. even though they've probably never met an American.


They didn´t remember everything.Even if they do I am certain they would not like to talk about it.

Vanille remembered. If Fang had a husband it would have been mentioned when the whole truth came out. Assuming that's it's a sore subject is incredibly strange considering that a husband was never mentioned. As far as I've seen the only time Fang shows any inclination towards a sore subject is when she was talking about Vanille.


Some eidolons and animals can fly.Cocoon is not a planet on outer space but an artificial world on the atmosphere of Pulse.
I am sure the sanctum Fal´Cie has a monitoring system that watches over the shell and decides if someone is a friend and foe letting them pass on the former´s condition.They are not dumb like the citizens.
It didn´t change after Ragnarok.

I think you're forgetting that the Sanctum 'ok'ed the Purge, y'know the murdering of thousands of people just because they lived next to a fal'Cie because any one of them could have been a l'Cie. Letting in a Pulse citizen who could potentially be a l'Cie with a Focus to destroy Cocoon wouldn't make much sense.

[ANGRYWOLF]

rotfl..
Gee how may threads can someone start with one hypothesis..reads guess..after another...:roll2

Final Fantasy XIII - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_XIII)

[Future Esthar]

No,I am not trying to link these games.



I think you're forgetting that the Sanctum 'ok'ed the Purge, y'know the murdering of thousands of people just because they lived next to a fal'Cie because any one of them could have been a l'Cie. Letting in a Pulse citizen who could potentially be a l'Cie with a Focus to destroy Cocoon wouldn't make much sense.


I am talking about Fal´Cie, not humans.
Humans are afraid of Pulse beings and think they are corrupt.
But Fal´Cie know they aren´t corrupt but are only enemies.
But Cocoon´s citizens came from Pulse in the first place.
So what would prevent a Fal´Cie to enslave a human that try to enter from the outside?
Specially ones that want to live there.
I don´t get it.


Vanille remembered. If Fang had a husband it would have been mentioned when the whole truth came out. Assuming that's it's a sore subject is incredibly strange considering that a husband was never mentioned. As far as I've seen the only time Fang shows any inclination towards a sore subject is when she was talking about Vanille.


It is not everyday one likes to talk about a husband who did something you didn´t like.Specially one that abandoned you.

[theundeadhero]

You were told to keep all your theories to one thread. If I see any more I will close them.

[G13]

I think you're forgetting that the Sanctum 'ok'ed the Purge, y'know the murdering of thousands of people just because they lived next to a fal'Cie because any one of them could have been a l'Cie. Letting in a Pulse citizen who could potentially be a l'Cie with a Focus to destroy Cocoon wouldn't make much sense.


I am talking about Fal´Cie, not humans.
Humans are afraid of Pulse beings and think they are corrupt.
But Fal´Cie know they aren´t corrupt but are only enemies.
But Cocoon´s citizens came from Pulse in the first place.

I was mostly referring to fal'Cie as well. The fal'Cie had to have been the ones who started the fear of Pulse, and if they didn't they sure as :bou::bou::bou::bou: didn't do anything to put those fears to rest. Why would they let the hatred of Pulse go on only to admit a Pulse citizen should they come a knocking?


So what would prevent a Fal´Cie to enslave a human that try to enter from the outside?
Specially ones that want to live there.
I don´t get it.

Why would a Pulsian(?) want to live on Cocoon, the thing they were taught to hate since birth? I don't get it either.



Vanille remembered. If Fang had a husband it would have been mentioned when the whole truth came out. Assuming that's it's a sore subject is incredibly strange considering that a husband was never mentioned. As far as I've seen the only time Fang shows any inclination towards a sore subject is when she was talking about Vanille.


It is not everyday one likes to talk about a husband who did something you didn´t like.Specially one that abandoned you.


a husband was never mentioned.

[Loony BoB]

This theory has as much reasoning behind it as suggesting that Vanille is actually Snow's mother with a sex change. While some theories of yours might have some vague reasoning behind them, this one is right out there, I have to say.

FE, I suggest you read the short story translations which give you a much better insight to how the characters think and also a slight insight as to how they grew up together from a young age. They were children together so Fang can not be Vanille's mother.

[Cloudane]

Oh god make him stop :onoes:

It's one retarded theory after another, it's getting out of hand.


Hey guys I got a theory, this person is actually Kefka communicating to us via a parallel universe where he's real and it's part of his evil plan to drive us all to insanity. Hee hee hee!

[Loony BoB]

Future Esthar will have all of his threads merged together and/or closed if he makes another obscure theory thread, rest assured. He has been warned by theundeadhero earlier in this thread. Let's stay on topic, now.

[Future Esthar]

Who said Fang was Vanille´s mother?


I was mostly referring to fal'Cie as well. The fal'Cie had to have been the ones who started the fear of Pulse, and if they didn't they sure as didn't do anything to put those fears to rest. Why would they let the hatred of Pulse go on only to admit a Pulse citizen should they come a knocking?


I think the Purge is very recent.

Guardian XIII,I already explained why it´s never mentioned.
And Square do this kinds of subtleties.


Oh god make him stop

It's one retarded theory after another, it's getting out of hand.


Why don´t you try to discuss them and prove me wrong instead of making these comments?
It would not waste memory space and would reach somewhere.

Fang not only is the ancestor of Claire but also of Galenth.This guy still weared the blue clothes of the Yun clan which was most probably the dominating clan of Oerba.He weared it before Barth killed him.
Convinced now?


theundeadhero what is the problem of opening a couple of new theory threads when a couple of ancient ones get inactive?
I don´t open that much each time.They don´t get excessive because I keep the number steady.

[Loony BoB]

My apologies, I must have misread something. But this part still stands...

This theory has as much reasoning behind it as suggesting that Vanille is actually Snow's mother with a sex change. While some theories of yours might have some vague reasoning behind them, this one is right out there, I have to say.
This theory has no basis behind it whatsoever. It also is pretty much impossible. There is a gap of hundreds upon hundreds of years. Also, while S-E might have a history of subtleties (I for one always found things to be pretty obvious, and the only subtleties are things that you yourself have never been able to prove), they always fill you in on the details that are required to lead you to such conclusions. There is absolutely no evidence for this theory whatsoever.

Even if they did have husbands and children, it should be noted that they were crystalised for roughly 500 years or so. That would make them not grandparents, but great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandparents. :p

If you read the official short stories you will find no mention of any husbands or children. Given that it goes through what they think about, this would be one of their initial concerns as mothers and wives, but they do not even think about it once. There is no evidence whatsoever for what you are getting at, and unless you establish what it is that you want to say, I feel that this one is so far fetched that it may be worth considering closing. I can understand keeping some of your theory threads open but you have many and this is probably the first one I would get rid of. You have to concede that sometimes the story is as it is read.

[Future Esthar]

Even if they did have husbands and children, it should be noted that they were crystalised for roughly 500 years or so. That would make them not grandparents, but great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandparents.

That is what I am saying.
I started saying they were grandmothers but changed my mind.
I can´t change the title of this thread though.
The important is that they are ancestors.

Long time span just strenghten this theory.

Their husbands got to Cocoon before Ragnarok.
The purge was unecessary by then.


If you read the official short stories you will find no mention of any husbands or children. Given that it goes through what they think about, this would be one of their initial concerns as mothers and wives, but they do not even think about it once.


Maybe not since so much time have passed and surnames changed and they figured it.It would be like finding a needle on a cornfield.
They will never find their husbands and sons since they were dead by now.
They have a better issue to worry about.Their focus.

[Loony BoB]

If the husbands got there before Ragnarok then they must have left their wives before they were crystallised, which seems entirely unlikely given that Vanille was only 19 at the time. It should also be noted that at the time that Vanille and Fang were alive, they lived without cars, if I recall the short story correctly. One can very easily assume that without fal'Cie assistance, there would be no way of reaching Cocoon. It should also mean that, given the hatred that Fang and Vanille harbour for Cocoon, they would not marry to men that did not share that hatred. This would mean that no man would willingly go to Cocoon as they were all brought up in the same knowledge that it is a bad place. It would be insanely unlikely that they would be able to reach Cocoon at all - far less likely than, say, meeting someone who has the same name as a gang that you lead.

To say that they have more important issues to worry about than their own family is completely against what Vanille and Fang are all about. Fang constantly puts Vanille ahead of herself as she is family. She would die for Vanille, and certainly would not achieve her focus if it meant it would damage someone she considers family. It would be incredibly unlikely that anyone who puts so much emphasis on family as Fang and Vanille would ever dismiss their own husbands and children in favour of their focus. Particularly Vanille. If you ever want people to respect your ideas then you will need to be more accepting when you are wrong, and you're digging yourself a very deep hole with how wrong you are regarding this particular idea.

[Future Esthar]

So why weren´t their parents mentioned?Didn´t they respect their parents?


If the husbands got there before Ragnarok then they must have left their wives before they were crystallised, which seems entirely unlikely given that Vanille was only 19 at the time.

Some cultures enable young marriage.Women can get pregnant at 19.Do note that they were ancestors,not grandmothers.


It would be insanely unlikely that they would be able to reach Cocoon at all - far less likely than, say, meeting someone who has the same name as a gang that you lead.

Flying Eidolons?I already explained this before.
Before Ragnarok there was no purge.So a Fal´Cie would let them enter after researching whether they are a menace or not.


This would mean that no man would willingly go to Cocoon as they were all brought up in the same knowledge that it is a bad place.

Traitors exist everywhere.Persons who change their mind also.It also explains why the woman would like to forget them.

[Cloudane]

Why don´t you try to discuss them and prove me wrong instead of making these comments?
It would not waste memory space and would reach somewhere.

Fang not only is the ancestor of Claire but also of Galenth.This guy still weared the blue clothes of the Yun clan which was most probably the dominating clan of Oerba.He weared it before Barth killed him.
Convinced now?

Well it's already been subtly pointed out that it was off-topic and not constructive so on that specific point I apologise BUT you have to see from other posters point of view, when looking at the forum all we see is thread after thread of random theories from yourself. It gets tedious, and to be honest it's painful to watch. (You are also, if I may say so, quite arrogant in your belief that these ideas are absolute solid truths and that the other 99% of people are wrong! So it sort of rubs people the wrong way, me at least)

So to get back on topic: problem I have with this theory, as with most of these theories, is that there's no evidence within the game or its accompanying literature and it doesn't make a huge amount of sense. It's a fantasy within a fantasy. It's just something you made up from 2 things that happen to match. Dysley wears blue, so he must be from the Yun clan. Fang and Vanille are old, chronologically speaking, so they must be somehow - by huge coincidence - direct ancestors of the other main characters. Snow's rebellion group has the acronym NORA so somehow Nora Estheim must be his mother. These are HUGE leaps in logic that could give some religions a run for their money!

Sure, I can't disprove it. Nor can I disprove that the planet Mars has a soft caramel centre, but it doesn't stop it from being a pretty random theory whose only basis is a lack of disproof.

Let's make another one up.. Sazh is actually a chocobo, and once ate a fal'cie experimental green that turned him into a man, and the frocobo is his son. Dajh is adopted. He has a chocobo living in his hair, so it must be true. See, I can make random theories up too, prove that one wrong ;)

[Skyblade]

It would be insanely unlikely that they would be able to reach Cocoon at all - far less likely than, say, meeting someone who has the same name as a gang that you lead.

Flying Eidolons?I already explained this before.
Before Ragnarok there was no purge.So a Fal´Cie would let them enter after researching whether they are a menace or not.

Noooo, the Purge was instituted because they found something from Pulse. Not because they determined it was a threat. Cocoon and Pulse lived in eternal fear of each other. The Purge was just a recent expression of that. They have been afraid of things from Pulse for ages. That's why, before the Purge starts, Serah is so scared of being a Pulse l'Cie. Because they've been taught since they were babies that Pulse = Evil. They think of Pulse as Hell itself! Nothing from Pulse would be allowed in, even with a Green Card.

[Future Esthar]

Skyblade,the citizens of Cocoon came from Pulse actually.
Scorted by the Fal´Cie.
So at which point would they deny access from the outside?
After finishing the shell?
Would they(The Fal´Cie) not welcome new persons?


It's just something you made up from 2 things that happen to match. Dysley wears blue, so he must be from the Yun clan. Fang and Vanille are old, chronologically speaking, so they must be somehow - by huge coincidence - direct ancestors of the other main characters.

I completely agree with you on this one.

But the Nora subject was proved beyound doubt.The only thing that stand in the middle is your insistence concerning that being a possible coincidence that Square intends.
When it is obvious that Square was hinting something here concerning Snow and Nora´s relationship.

[Loony BoB]

So why weren´t their parents mentioned?Didn´t they respect their parents?
Because they're orphans. They lost their families to Cocoon fal'Cie (and/or l'Cie). They do, however, mention in the short stories something along the lines of "all our friends, the people we grew up with, are gone". Now that I think about it, I'm fairly certain that they originally chose to be l'Cie when they were on Pulse (Fang with intention of protecting Pulse, Vanille to tag along). If they were to choose to become l'Cie, I doubt they would have children - they would effectively be abandoning their children of mothers at an extremely young age.


Some cultures enable young marriage.Women can get pregnant at 19.Do note that they were ancestors,not grandmothers.
Ancestors requires them to have had children, though, and it is highly unlikely that they would have married, had children and divorced and watched their children leave and then attacked the place that their children were then in. It doesn't make sense at all. You're not an idiot, so you should understand that.


Traitors exist everywhere.Persons who change their mind also.It also explains why the woman would like to forget them.
Traitors, yes, but the very idea of someone from Pulse going to Cocoon was abhorred by the people within Cocoon even at the time that Vanille and Oerba were alive. It was 800 years earlier that Cocoon was made, not just a few decades. Fang and Vanille's short story covers this kind of thing, too. The intolerance between the two nations of each other is bred into their very being from the day they are born. This hatred was around hundreds upon hundreds of years before Vanille and Fang were born, and while traitors do exist, they would not have got into Cocoon for fear of disrupting the "agenda" that existed within Cocoon. They simply could not handle a Pulse being entering Cocoon at that time, nor hundreds of years beforehand. It wouldn't happen. It would be bad storytelling.

[Future Esthar]

You are right.
Thank you for help me refine my theories.
Two heads think better than one.
My idea of accessing Cocoon was idiotic


I thought of an alternative.
Give me your opinion please.

Maybe their family stayed on Pulse after they turned Ragnarok.
And was later kidnapped by Barth.Secretly.
I think this makes sense in the context of the war.
He basically did the same to Fang and Vanille.

They didn´t mention them but they didn´t talked too much about Oerba either.
More on this later.

[G13]

Who said Fang was Vanille´s mother?


I was mostly referring to fal'Cie as well. The fal'Cie had to have been the ones who started the fear of Pulse, and if they didn't they sure as didn't do anything to put those fears to rest. Why would they let the hatred of Pulse go on only to admit a Pulse citizen should they come a knocking?


I think the Purge is very recent.

I think you misunderstood me. The fear had to be there before the Purge, else the Purge wouldn't have happened. It wasn't like the Sanctum noticed the fal'Cie was there and shouted "OMG there's a Pulse fal'Cie! Hit the fear button!" The people have been told generation after generation that Pulse is the enemy. Don't trust anything from Pulse, everything there can kill you! They even refer to Pulse as Hell. So, again, why would they admit someone from Pulse into Cocoon when they promoted so much hatred towards it?


Guardian XIII,I already explained why it´s never mentioned.
And Square do this kinds of subtleties.

You didn't explain anything, you offered your reasons as to why you think that. Never did I see you post any in game references helping your theory.


Fang not only is the ancestor of Claire but also of Galenth.This guy still weared the blue clothes of the Yun clan which was most probably the dominating clan of Oerba.He weared it before Barth killed him.
Convinced now?

I wore a blue shirt and some blue jeans yesterday, does that mean I'm part of the Yun clan? Are you really saying that anyone who wears blue is a descendant of Fang and her clan?

Edit: Forget this bit, it seems you've ditched these ideas for a new one. Are you just looking for any kind of hidden connection?

[Future Esthar]

I will reveal who is Lightning´s older sister but I am waiting for an answer to post 26 first.
I can only say she married a Sanctum pilot and was divorced for being evil,specially using their children.
This will provide more evidence on Disley.

[Darkwolf090]

Im not gonna lie im not going to bother reading this whole thread and i dont know if this has been said yet but uh...
Vanille is 19 and Fang is 21

Bit young to have been married and birthed a child while fighting their whole lives as Gran Pulse l'cie and stuff I mean Pulse wasnt a happy place back then and it still isnt, so uh I highly doubt anything like that also i think the Lesbian Theory people keep throwing out has more credit to it to be honest i dont mean to be a jerk but hey it happens.

Also I dont think the lesbian is true they are more like sister.... just getting that out of ththe way ok bye.

[Rozaheku]

If it isn't downright confirmed in the game or any other offical material then it didn't happen. Besides, what's the point of this theory? How does it add anything to the story? If it is so obvious why wasn't it more clarified? Where are the sources?

[Future Esthar]

Besides, what's the point of this theory?
I already explained that.

Let me add some other theories important to the whole thing:

I always get the impression that Square intended for Jill to be married with Sazh before the flashbacks.
She started to behave like a bitch and he decided he can´t stand her anymore.He left her.
He hated her so much that he pretended to everybody who met him afterwards that his wife was dead.