"ONLY Macho Protagonists Sell... in America!" -- Square Enix

[Mikeneko Rocker -- Tim]

Source: Sankaku Complex (NSFW)


Interviews with the developers of Square Enix’s new Nier franchise reveal a bizarre development saga in which arguments over whether western audiences could stomach a typical girly JRPG lead eventually lead to the company making two versions of the game.

Square Enix’s new “Nier” franchise launched with two games, Gestalt (PS3/360) and Replicant (PS3), each with radically differnet character designs for the hero; however only Gestalt was released in the west, as “Nier” – comparisons of the two attracted some attention.

The interview concerning this odd decision included publisher Square Enix’s Executive Producer Yosuke Saito, and developer Cavia’s Nier director Taro Yoko:


Saito: We were initially planning an Xbox 360 target, which we expanded to PS3 multiplatform afterwards. However, the production process turned out to be quite storied.

Yoko: At first we were just doing the youthful protagonist version (which became “Replicant”), but Square Enix started taking talking about international markets during development.

Yoko: In fact, an argument erupted at Square Enix’s Los Angeles studio, over whether a thin looking male character [hereafter translated as “girly”] was possible for the game. For the North American consumers, it was decided to provide a macho main.

Yoko: A heated discussion ensued once the American and European staff were gathered to discuss it. It was said that “A slender and girly protagonist like this couldn’t possibly swing a huge sword like that, it’s ridiculous.” Certainly, if you look at American games it’s always muscle bound mains who look like they play American football.

Saito: We thought that as it’s a new IP, it really must sell, and we were persuaded [by the Japanese staff’s desire to make a girly lead] – we opted to leave the Japanese version with the girly character, and instead make two different versions.

Saito: We did realize that not all international audiences are the same though – it was thought that Replicant [the girly version] might be suitable for the French, as they have a greater appreciation of Japanese culture.

Yoko: That meeting was pretty amazing. A lot of people were arguing for making only the macho old guy version for cost reasons, and we [the Japanese developers] were saying “But if we don’t make a girly version we’ll lose heart and it’ll take even longer.”

Saito: As a result, the Japanese PS3 version only became the girly version, and both PS3 and Xbox 360 international version were the macho old guy versions.
Curiously, the obvious choice of eschewing the entire “Epic vs Enix” problem by just making universally sexy Kainé the protagonist seems not to have occurred to them, although considering the approach they took to depicting her in the US comics this is perhaps for the best.

The obsession Japanese RPG publishers have with supplying western audiences with its crude interpretation of the muscle bound heroes they see as key to the success of American games seems almost pathological – Square Enix actually made two games rather than have to risk releasing an insufficiently masculine lead to supposedly testosterone loving American audiences.

Unfortunately for both supporters and detractors of macho protagonists, the Nier games have received mediocre reviews and would likely have sunk without trace were it not for the cunning inclusion of ...Kainé – finally proving whether western audiences (apparently shorthand for “American audiences” amongst RPG publishers) really can’t stomach girly androgynous protagonists will have to wait.

If you ask me, this is:

--a sincere, yet misguided attempt to capture American audiences.
--a sign that it's rubbing it in our faces, due to local haters' whining about effeminate JRPG leads.

I'd like to get your opinion on this.

[Jessweeee♪]

They can't win. We'll complain no matter what :|

[VeloZer0]

I don't like 'girly' protagonists, and they certainly decrease my enjoyment of a game. However for me personality is usually more important than the character model. People always say Zero from Mega Man X look girly, but he typically emulates masculine protagonist characteristics. Unfortunately on the jump to the GBA they chose to go with an even less masculine looking sprite and art style.

[Slothy]

This is a joke right? I mean it has to be. If it's not then Square really have totally lost touch not only with North American audiences, but with their own core audience.

Their core audience wouldn't care if the main character were thin, and so-called girly. It's common in a lot of Japanese games and them trying to appeal to North American audiences is a bad idea because they aren't North American. Trying to ditch the distinct Japanese charm their games have which obviously appeals to people here (otherwise how would every FF sell millions) in favour of a character archetype they're not familiar with is a bad idea. The people who don't mind the Japanese styling aren't bothered by it, and those who don't like it probably don't like Japanese RPG's and don't care if they replace the main character with macho character #734. Especially when most Japanese developers can't seem to figure out why any of those characters made here are appealing western audiences anyway. The best I've seen them manage is one liner spewing American action hero stereotypes that were old in the 80's.

I guess I'm ranting a bit. Short version: Japanese need to stop trying to emulate western developers and stick to making their own style of games. They didn't dominate the market for the better part of 20+ years by compromising their own style to pander to western audiences.

[VeloZer0]

You could argue that they dominated the market because they were the only show in town. Back in the day the NA video game market was much much weaker. If they need to change or not is a complicated question, but insisting that one doesn't need to adapt to compete is usually a one way ticket to obscurity.

I think they need to realize there is a big area between effeminate and macho. I don't think that it is NA audiences need macho characters, it is that they abhor effeminate ones.

[Depression Moon]

I want an old lady for a main protagonist.

[Slothy]

You could argue that they dominated the market because they were the only show in town. Back in the day the NA video game market was much much weaker. If they need to change or not is a complicated question, but insisting that one doesn't need to adapt to compete is usually a one way ticket to obscurity.

I'm not saying they shouldn't adapt and change with the times. What I'm saying is that they shouldn't try to pander to what they see as the stereotypical western audience by trying to emulate western games. If history has shown anything it's that they don't really understand what actually appeals to western gamers that well (which has resulted in things like Dirge of Cerberus not being a very good third person shooter).

Mind you western gamers and developers don't really understand the Japanese market any better. Looking at lists of the top selling games over their will often cause multiple "huh?" moments for me.

Really though, my point is that there's almost a certain style to the characters and the worlds typical of Japanese games that is appealing because it isn't like everything coming out of western developers. To lose that so that they can poorly emulate the preferences of a culture they aren't really immersed in or have a lot of direct first hand knowledge of would be to do a disservice to their games. Hell, some games wouldn't even work if they tried to pander to American audiences, like the Persona series, Odin Sphere, Ico, or Shadow of the Colossus.

Right now they have a style that stands out on its own and they do things that western developers would never do, and they're still successful at it. FFXIII, for all of the inspiration it draws from certain types of distinctly western genres, would never have been made by a western developer. I may have hated the game, but it'd be a shame to lose games that do stand out like the FF series of old because Square wants to be like Activision or Epic.

I think I just said the same thing four different ways. It must be bed time. :D

[Shiny]

I like to play as female character and if she happens to girly then so what. As long as she can kick ass. That's what counts.

[Momiji]

I want an old lady for a main protagonist.

*imagines an old grandma kicking ass with swords and magic*

MAKE IT HAPPEN. @_@

Also, overly masculine male protagonists in games are so dime-a-dozen anymore. I don't really mind androgynous male protagonists or female protagonists-- in fact, I prefer them, these days. Game developers need to mix things up a bit more if you ask me.

[Depression Moon]

I want an old lady for a main protagonist.

*imagines an old grandma kicking ass with swords and magic*

MAKE IT HAPPEN. @_@



I was thinking of her using a kurisagama or scythe. I've wondered for a little bit why there hasn't been any old ladies for party members, we have a few old guys (they were never the main party member),but not a single old lady. I don't think any of the women past the age of 33. except for Fran, but in her case doesn't look like her race even gets old.

[Mirage]

because old men are still sexy, but women aren't

[ShinGundam]

I want an old lady for a main protagonist.

*imagines an old grandma kicking ass with swords and magic*

MAKE IT HAPPEN. @_@



I was thinking of her using a kurisagama or scythe. I've wondered for a little bit why there hasn't been any old ladies for party members, we have a few old guys (they were never the main party member),but not a single old lady. I don't think any of the women past the age of 33. except for Fran, but in her case doesn't look like her race even gets old.
http://pspmedia.ign.com/psp/image/article/898/898577/parasite-eve-the-3rd-birthday-20080813021828641_640w.jpg

Aya in "the 3rd birthday" is 35 years old.

[Depression Moon]

she's not in FF

[champagne supernova]

I want a donkey to be the main character.

[Bolivar]

I like playing Japanese games because they're Japanese. If I want to play as a macho man, I'll play Grand Theft Auto or God of War instead.

[Hot Shot]

I like playing Japanese games because they're Japanese. If I want to play as a macho man, I'll play Grand Theft Auto or God of War instead.
I totally agree. SE are just geting rid of their uniqueness and becoming a generic company trying to please the masses. Instead of shying away from their uniqueness they should embrace it. A lot JRPGs dont make it out of Japan, so SE should have just released the 'girly' version simply because it is a JRPG and not another bland RPG. And besides, most RPG fans won't mind because they like and want what is popular in Japan.

[Suikojowy]

The Nier thing doesn't bother me but it kinda annoys me what Square is trying to do with the whole "going western" thing. I like a lot of God of War and a lot of western games but it's not what I want from them, it's not what made them great and gave them the huge fanbase they have and I wish they'd recognize that.

[Garland]

Why such a dichotomy? Will the Japanese revolt if a male hero looks male? I know Americans would be just fine with a moderate hero. What about variety? It's sad that the only two options in SE's mind for a male character are Brock Lesnar or Boy George. Honestly, I don't think most of us want either. Just make a character we can relate to. That's what I want, personally. Cloud and Squall were good leads. Sephiroth was a good villain. They weren't ubermensche, or whatever the term is, nor were their genders in question. The whole Kuja "I thought he was a girl till disc 3" thing is good once in a while, but nobody wants to see the same thing over and over. No "burly superman", no "girl for all intents and purposes, but he specifically tells you in the story that he has a penis, so I guess not". Just make a regular guy, and give him a sword. It'll work.

[ShinGundam]

Why such a dichotomy? Will the Japanese revolt if a male hero looks male? I know Americans would be just fine with a moderate hero. What about variety? It's sad that the only two options in SE's mind for a male character are Brock Lesnar or Boy George. Honestly, I don't think most of us want either. Just make a character we can relate to. That's what I want, personally. Cloud and Squall were good leads. Sephiroth was a good villain. They weren't ubermensche, or whatever the term is, nor were their genders in question. The whole Kuja "I thought he was a girl till disc 3" thing is good once in a while, but nobody wants to see the same thing over and over. No "burly superman", no "girl for all intents and purposes, but he specifically tells you in the story that he has a penis, so I guess not". Just make a regular guy, and give him a sword. It'll work.
It isn't Square who said that , it is Cavia.

[Laddy]

I kinda...don't care.

[I Took the Red Pill]

I have nothing to add to this thread 'cept that I love how the thread title matches Tim's username

[Mirage]

I want an old lady for a main protagonist.

*imagines an old grandma kicking ass with swords and magic*

MAKE IT HAPPEN. @_@



I was thinking of her using a kurisagama or scythe. I've wondered for a little bit why there hasn't been any old ladies for party members, we have a few old guys (they were never the main party member),but not a single old lady. I don't think any of the women past the age of 33. except for Fran, but in her case doesn't look like her race even gets old.
http://pspmedia.ign.com/psp/image/article/898/898577/parasite-eve-the-3rd-birthday-20080813021828641_640w.jpg

Aya in "the 3rd birthday" is 35 years old.

And 35 isn't even very old, not that she looks a day past 20 anyway.

[black orb]

This is a joke right? I mean it has to be. If it's not then Square really have totally lost touch not only with North American audiences, but with their own core audience.
>>> Thats right, Cloud and Sephiroth are popular as hell and they are not exactly the epitome of manliness..:luca:

[Nice]

SE's heart is in the wrong place. I mean it's a part of anything J (Jpop, rock, rap, anime, games etc) to have overly emo characters, female looking male characters or whatever. If you play enough JRPG's and watch enough anime and read enough manga, sometimes you need an alternative. An Auron (FFX) or two to contrast a Tidus.

I can understand where SE is coming from, but If the lead already looks a certain way, keep it. Nobody wants to see a Sylvester Stallone lead character get raped by a penguin (these scenarios happen in Jap mediums all the time). That's just weird.

Perhaps with the emergence of games like BioShock and other western rpg's that have a darker edge, the japenese feel the need to compensate. It's weird though, I've seen friends of mine switch alliances from JRPG's to western ones thanks to Bioshock, jade empire and KOTOR. All of a sudden JRPG's are too emo, too light hearted, not dark enough etc. Come on, weren't you like 21 when you were playing Star Ocean Second Story?