Technology!

[Yar]

It's always amazed me in the FF world.

In the first title, it's clear that the game is set in a more medieval setting. Yet, there are flying ships!!

In later titles, for example: VII and VIII, the technology is much more advanced. The worlds are very high-tech and futuristic. Yet, in both instances, our main heroes rely on melee weapons. And not just any melee weapons, but swords!!

VI has a clash between high- and low-technology.

What is this madness

[Fynn]

Welcome to FF, successfully bleding all kinds of fantasy since 1987. :)

[Jiro]

Swords give a positive modifier to your badass stat, which is important!

I think that we just have to assume technology advances in different ways, and they don't have the foresight to adapt the technology elsewhere. I'm sure you'd know how to make a gun if you could make a flying ship, but they just didn't think of it!

[Mo-Nercy]

Suddenly, Laguna doesn't seem the the big idiot he came across as in FFVIII. He's the only one smart enough to use a machine gun.

I mean...wtf, gunblades? attached-to-arm-slingshot thing? harpoon?

[VeloZer0]

In terms of stopping power a sword way out classes a gun. One little hole compared to slicing you in half, not to mention the impulse you have to stop to block a sword is WAY higher than that of a gun.
The reason we use guns is because both will kill you, and a gun has a way longer range. If you could survive gun hits/block bullets then swords would be much higher up on the range of effective weapons.

[pyrefly maiden]

If everybody used guns it'd be boring :p And with other weapons you also get various kinds of limit breaks. Imagine in FFVIII world if everyone had to rely on special ammo for their limit breaks (like Irvine) doesn't that mean you'd have to spend hours just getting enough ammo for ALL of them? Environmentally wise it wouldn't be very friendly either :p

[Bastian]

I think for the most part we are expected to believe that these bits of technology came from either an ancient civilization (modern/future by our standards . . . then comes along a post-apocalyptic situation and most of the world is reverted back to medieval era) or it is alien technology.

[Fynn]

Or a newly-discovered incredebly powerful source of energy (which is the case of FFVII).

[Hollycat]

technology speaking, if they were to take place over time on one world, I believe it would go like this: {note: havent played 3 9 10-2 11 12 13}
1 2 4 5 7 6 10 8

[Yar]

I think for the most part we are expected to believe that these bits of technology came from either an ancient civilization (modern/future by our standards . . . then comes along a post-apocalyptic situation and most of the world is reverted back to medieval era) or it is alien technology.

Yeah, Final Fantasy IV explained that. Airships and shiz was from the moon. So the technological clash was explained. :D

[the AJman]

In terms of stopping power a sword way out classes a gun. One little hole compared to slicing you in half, not to mention the impulse you have to stop to block a sword is WAY higher than that of a gun.
The reason we use guns is because both will kill you, and a gun has a way longer range. If you could survive gun hits/block bullets then swords would be much higher up on the range of effective weapons.

Depends on the caliber of the fire arm your using. If your talking a .22 against a claymore or something than you might have a point. However, I can guarantee that almost anyone getting hit with something like a .45 is either going to get knock off their feet, stopped in their tracks, or killed out right. Fire arms have pretty darn good stopping power, otherwise they wouldn't be used.

As for the little hole compared to a body being cut in half, your giving two extremes for examples. Thats like comparing a stab wound from a rapier to a gunshot wound from a barret .50 sniper rifle.

And despite popular belief cutting through human bone is not that easy to do let alone cutting some one completely in half especially when they are wearing armor.

Despite how much I hate to say this (I'm a full blown sword fanatic) we use guns over swords because the fact of the matter is guns are much better weapons than swords.

Talking about gunshot wounds reminds me of the scene in The Last Samurai at the beginning when Tom Cruiz's character has a drunken lapse in sanity.

*Tom loading a rifle and looks down a confused child*
"Son, have you ever seen what this could do to a man"
*Confused kid shakes his head no*
"This would blow a hole in your daddy six inches wide"
*Lady in crowd turns her head in disgust*
"Thats right, missy"
*Then Cruiz winks at her after he made the comment*

I don't know why, but always liked that scene for some reason.

[VeloZer0]

I wasn't disputing that guns are much better weapons, I think that if fairly self evident. I am saying that if guns weren't lethal and just did damage instead swords would be more valuable in comparison. With RPG mechanics players can dodge, block and parry bullets with swords. Not to mention shrug off a few hits.

Think of it this way, the bullet will do the same damage regardless, and move at the same speed. If you are superhuman a sword will do much more damage and be swung much faster. A sword 'scales' much more if you were to increase the durability, strength and speed of the weapon users.


As for the little hole compared to a body being cut in half, your giving two extremes for examples. Thats like comparing a stab wound from a rapier to a gunshot wound from a barret .50 sniper rifle.
RPG characters always slash with their swords, silly. :D

[the AJman]

I wasn't disputing that guns are much better weapons, I think that if fairly self evident. I am saying that if guns weren't lethal and just did damage instead swords would be more valuable in comparison. With RPG mechanics players can dodge, block and parry bullets with swords. Not to mention shrug off a few hits.

The same thing could be said for any weapon even swords, if they weren't lethal they wouldn't be as effective in war.


Think of it this way, the bullet will do the same damage regardless, and move at the same speed. If you are superhuman a sword will do much more damage and be swung much faster. A sword 'scales' much more if you were to increase the durability, strength and speed of the weapon users.


Guns scale right along with the user just like swords do. With increased speed they can pull their weapon up quicker, take aim faster, reload faster, and shot faster. with increased durability they take greater amounts of punishment in a hostile situation.



RPG characters always slash with their swords, silly. :D

Your right they always slash,I forgot about that. Now that I think about it why is it that you hardly ever see RPG characters stab.

[VeloZer0]

The same thing could be said for any weapon even swords, if they weren't lethal they wouldn't be as effective in war.
My point was the level of effectiveness in relation to each other will change.

---

I was wrong about one thing, a bullet does have more kinetic energy than a sword. I knew momentum would be much less, but I would imagine kinetic energy is more important. Using these numbers I found:
M16 Bullet:
0.0039 kg, 853 m/s (muzzle velocity, I would assume if we are talking sword vs gun the range wouldn't be more than 50m)
kinetic energy = 1419 J
momentum = 3.33 kg*m/s

Two Handed Medieval Sword
1.6 kg, 27 m/s (source on speed is a bit sketchy, but from what I can tell it should be close)
kinetic energy = 583 J
momentum = 43.2 kg*m/s
a sword would have to be swung at 42 m/s to have the same kinetic energy

---


Guns scale right along with the user just like swords do. With increased speed they can pull their weapon up quicker, take aim faster, reload faster, and shot faster. with increased durability they take greater amounts of punishment in a hostile situation.
Not quite. I'm not saying that guns don't scale at all, just that they don't scale as much.
You would shoot faster and more accurately but the shots would still travel at the same velocity and impart the same damage on target. The time between sword slashes/blocks would be quicker, slashes/blocks would be more accurate but unlike the gun the sword would close distance to target quicker and impart more damage when it hits. It is improved in multiple aspects.

If you extrapolate to the logical extreme you would be able to dodge bullets with ease and they would do no damage when they hit, making them largely ineffective. A sword would be wielded at a greatly improved speed, making it far more likely to hit. And when it does the greatly improved speed would translate into a much higher stopping power than when wielded at a conventional speed, making it (possibly) be a feasibly weapon in a battle of super humans. (And of course ignoring the fact it probably wouldn't be strong enough to not break on impact at these speeds. Thats what magic is for)


Your right they always slash,I forgot about that. Now that I think about it why is it that you hardly ever see RPG characters stab.
Duh, because they have already been through all of this.
In all seriousness though, slashes usually look way cooler than stabs. Not to mention you can make slashing swords look way more elaborate than stabbing swords. Also helps differentiate them from spears.

[the AJman]

My point was the level of effectiveness in relation to each other will change.

---

I was wrong about one thing, a bullet does have more kinetic energy than a sword. I knew momentum would be much less, but I would imagine kinetic energy is more important. Using these numbers I found:
M16 Bullet:
0.0039 kg, 853 m/s (muzzle velocity, I would assume if we are talking sword vs gun the range wouldn't be more than 50m)
kinetic energy = 1419 J
momentum = 3.33 kg*m/s

Two Handed Medieval Sword
1.6 kg, 27 m/s (source on speed is a bit sketchy, but from what I can tell it should be close)
kinetic energy = 583 J
momentum = 43.2 kg*m/s
a sword would have to be swung at 42 m/s to have the same kinetic energy

---



Actually what a lot of people don't know is that kinetic energy plays a big role in gunshot wounds. Not only does the bullet create a hole in a human body, but also as the bullet passes through the kinetic energy it's carrying transfers over to the target, thus shredding the tissues around the bullet hole. Pretty ugly stuff, but than war is an ugly human activity.


Not quite. I'm not saying that guns don't scale at all, just that they don't scale as much.
You would shoot faster and more accurately but the shots would still travel at the same velocity and impart the same damage on target. The time between sword slashes/blocks would be quicker, slashes/blocks would be more accurate but unlike the gun the sword would close distance to target quicker and impart more damage when it hits. It is improved in multiple aspects.

The difference between the two is that with increased speed and strength a sword could do more damage were as a guns damage doesn't increase (though I have feeling you just pointed that out). Since bullets have no real trouble killing people having super bullets is redundant. Also since swords don't have much trouble cutting through flesh it also falls under the same concept. That and the fact that human beings don't have super strength or speed makes this whole argument a bit silly (despite the fact that I'm actually kind of enjoying anyway).

Still with a fire arm your still able to attack quicker, fire more accurately (thus being able to hit vital spots on the body better for quicker kills), and reload and be able to attack again.

I've actually got to see someone with military training shooting guns with some of my friends who have shot fire arms for years. The difference in performance was embarrassing. The soldier (who is by the way my brother) was able to pull up, aim, fire, and hit skeet well before my friends could even pull their guns to their shoulders. It doesn't matter much to me because I can count on one hand how many times I've shot a gun, so out gunning me isn't even worth bragging about.


If you extrapolate to the logical extreme you would be able to dodge bullets with ease and they would do no damage when they hit, making them largely ineffective. A sword would be wielded at a greatly improved speed, making it far more likely to hit. And when it does the greatly improved speed would translate into a much higher stopping power than when wielded at a conventional speed, making it (possibly) be a feasibly weapon in a battle of super humans. (And of course ignoring the fact it probably wouldn't be strong enough to not break on impact at these speeds. Thats what magic is for)

With super human speed it could be feasible to use a sword similar to what we see Cloud do in FFVII AC, however, that same super human speed could be applied to fire arms. The ability to move, aim, and shot faster would increase just as the ability to swing, block, and stab with a sword will. There's also the advantage still of having greater range. A lot of people don't understand or don't know but range is a big factor in fighting and war, it always has been. Even before fire arms people tried to make weapons that would allow them to kill people out side of their opponents reach if they could.

You also brought up another important factor, the durability of the weapons. Swords break when in the hands of normal people, the frequency for this depends and the quality of the weapon and how well the owner takes care of it (because just like anything swords require maintenance), but they can break. I imagine you would have to manufacture some pretty tough swords to hold up to some one with super human speed and strength.


Duh, because they have already been through all of this.
In all seriousness though, slashes usually look way cooler than stabs. Not to mention you can make slashing swords look way more elaborate than stabbing swords. Also helps differentiate them from spears.

That's a good point, never really thought about it before (never really thought about anything before). Don't get me wrong, I love swords. I've spent years studying them from an academic point of view and used to do medieval fencing as well. I like swords better than guns, it's just I know that in reality a gun is just a better weapon period.

[VeloZer0]

That and the fact that human beings don't have super strength or speed makes this whole argument a bit silly (despite the fact that I'm actually kind of enjoying anyway).
This originally started about guns in RPGs, and I think we can agree that all characters are on a super-human level. If we weren't talking about super-humans then I wouldn't even have brought up swords as a weapon of choice.


I've actually got to see someone with military training shooting guns with some of my friends who have shot fire arms for years. The difference in performance was embarrassing.
Oh, I know the difference training makes on just about any activity you can imagine. I was envisioning someone being superbly skilled in both.


With super human speed it could be feasible to use a sword similar to what we see Cloud do in FFVII AC, however, that same super human speed could be applied to fire arms. The ability to move, aim, and shot faster would increase just as the ability to swing, block, and stab with a sword will. There's also the advantage still of having greater range. A lot of people don't understand or don't know but range is a big factor in fighting and war, it always has been. Even before fire arms people tried to make weapons that would allow them to kill people out side of their opponents reach if they could.
Range is a definite advantage to the gun, even in an AC like scenario. However the sword would offer a definite stopping power advantage. Judging from Cloud's reaction to being shot in the head in the opening bike scene it would take several dozen shots to bring him down.

For the record I am imagining a scenario where the two were on par effectiveness wise, not one where the sword is superior.


You also brought up another important factor, the durability of the weapons. Swords break when in the hands of normal people, the frequency for this depends and the quality of the weapon and how well the owner takes care of it (because just like anything swords require maintenance), but they can break. I imagine you would have to manufacture some pretty tough swords to hold up to some one with super human speed and strength.
I'm assuming they would use some sort of magic forging method. In addition to technology we also have magic to consider :) Guns would also be more durable, but that would benefit them less than it would a sword.

[the AJman]

This originally started about guns in RPGs, and I think we can agree that all characters are on a super-human level. If we weren't talking about super-humans then I wouldn't even have brought up swords as a weapon of choice.

This is obviously another example of me misinterpreting what I'm debating. Apparently I've been the one taking this way too seriously; you'll have to forgive me.

One that note, I wouldn't say that all RPG characters are super-human, but I'd say pretty darn near close. I felt that despite the quickenings and their ability to learn magic spells the characters in XII were fairly normal physically. Normal at least compared to characters from the games in the series.



Range is a definite advantage to the gun, even in an AC like scenario. However the sword would offer a definite stopping power advantage. Judging from Cloud's reaction to being shot in the head in the opening bike scene it would take several dozen shots to bring him down.

Given the right circumstances (super-human abilities) the sword would certainly have a power advantage, at least on any practical level. you could increase the amount of powder in the cartridge and have a larger projectile to increase damage, but there is only so far you could probably go with that and still have it practical to use.

Judging how easy the bullet from Yazoo's gun went through Cloud's shoulder at the end of AC I just assumed that the sunglasses is what protected Cloud from having a bullet in his cranium. Of course that's just as unrealistic as his big noggin just deflecting the shot with his skull so I don't know. Than again Cloud does survive getting stabbed in one shoulder, shot in the other, survived an explosion point blank, and falling from the top of the ruins of the Shinra Building and in to the Church. So Cloud can certainly take a beating.


I'm assuming they would use some sort of magic forging method. In addition to technology we also have magic to consider :) Guns would also be more durable, but that would benefit them less than it would a sword.

Yea, magic would certainly change the game quite a bit. I also agree that guns would benefit less than swords from being more durable.

In RPGs and in games in general, heck just entertainment in general I've always like swords more and probably always will.

[VeloZer0]

This is obviously another example of me misinterpreting what I'm debating. Apparently I've been the one taking this way too seriously; you'll have to forgive me.
I prefer a more involved back and forth as opposed to a thread where everyone posts their thoughts and doesn't comment on others. I've quite enjoyed this exchange.


In RPGs and in games in general, heck just entertainment in general I've always like swords more and probably always will.
Oh yeah. Katana's are where it's at for me.

And of course if you were really smart you would just carry one of each :D

[the AJman]

This is obviously another example of me misinterpreting what I'm debating. Apparently I've been the one taking this way too seriously; you'll have to forgive me.I prefer a more involved back and forth as opposed to a thread where everyone posts their thoughts and doesn't comment on others. I've quite enjoyed this exchange.


In RPGs and in games in general, heck just entertainment in general I've always like swords more and probably always will.Oh yeah. Katana's are where it's at for me.

And of course if you were really smart you would just carry one of each :D



I've enjoyed the debate myself despite the fact that I may not have been on the right page.

I'm more a medieval sword guy, though medieval sword a pretty broad spectrum. Katanas are very good swords (though, there were different variations of the katana as well). My only gripe about is that popular belief and modern pop culture have blown the capabilities of the samurai sword way out of proportion.