So what's the deal?

[Proxy]

I've heard varrying things about this game...none very good.
I'm a big fan of Final Fantasy, but I'm so hesitant to even rent it and I would very much like reasons to rent/buy. Please if any community can help me do it, it's good old EoFF

[Slothy]

By all means rent it. If you don't like the game within the first few hours you aren't going to like it at all, so it's worth spending the money if you're a little cautious before buying it.

Opinions on the game are so varied that you'll likely never get a good sense of how you'd feel about the game. A lot of people loved it, just as many hated it (such as myself). If you want a little more background on the pros and cons then check out some posts in the strengths and flaws threads.

[Shin Gouken]

I've heard varrying things about this game...none very good.
I'm a big fan of Final Fantasy, but I'm so hesitant to even rent it and I would very much like reasons to rent/buy. Please if any community can help me do it, it's good old EoFF

It completley depends on what you enjoy most from your FF experience.

FFXIII is very heavily story and character driven. The Crystarium and weapon levelling is very straight forward, most dungeons consist of straight lines with pre-set battles and the battle system favours a faster pace with flashy graphics rather than more defined strategies.

I found these to be the opposite from what i enjoy about FF so my experience with FFXIII wasn't great. If you're looking for customization and exploration in the style of XII then you may not enjoy it. But if you preferred the linearity of FFX than you'll probabley find it very enjoyable. It's completley down to your personal taste.

There are a few genuine flaws in the game which don't come down to opinion, but they shouldn't define your experience of the game so i wont bother mentioning them here.

[VeloZer0]

Well, naturaly it is somewhat subjective. I'll try and be as objective in my 'review' as possible.

In my oppinion does it live up to the 'glory days' of PS1 and SNES FF titles.
No.

Is it worth playing
Yes.

The game is extremely linear, as you might have heard a few people say already. For just about the entirety of the game you will be exclusively doing one of three things: traveling down a set pathway, encountering monsters and watching cut scenes. The main focus of the story is the character development. Your customization options take hours to open up, for much of the game you will have no control over character development or party composition.
The character/equipment set up aspect is simple and not very involved.
Graphics are naturally stunning.
Combat is fast paced AI based, with the player choosing tactics instead of actions. Though I don't like it as much as more traditional systems it is the only RPG with AI characters I have enjoyed playing.

Hope that helps make an informed choice.

[Ragebrain The Enraged]

In my opinion FFXIII was amazing. End of. :D

[Proxy]

So far, these are very educated posts.
I was really hoping it would be like FFXII which I very much enjoyed, and even X wasn't too bad.
No wonder the orginal developers left squeenix.
I think I will take your advice Vivi22, and rent it. But, when I do rent it, I will take it in, unbiased and playing it as a Final Fantasy game.
But don't stop there guys! Please continue on with pros and cons, and your thoughts.

[Hythloday]

I think a lot of people grew up, and then forgot what it was like to play a JRPG.

[VeloZer0]

I will take it in, unbiased and playing it as a Final Fantasy game. I would advise you play it as a JRPG and not a Final Fantasy game. A significant part of my disappointment with the game was because I was measuring it against a very high standard. It's not really fair to the game, but as we all know the world isn't fair.

[Shin Gouken]

So far, these are very educated posts.
I was really hoping it would be like FFXII which I very much enjoyed, and even X wasn't too bad.
No wonder the orginal developers left squeenix.
I think I will take your advice Vivi22, and rent it. But, when I do rent it, I will take it in, unbiased and playing it as a Final Fantasy game.
But don't stop there guys! Please continue on with pros and cons, and your thoughts.

Oh dear, like i said before, this is the opposite to FFXII in every single way. However, you know this before playing it so at least your expectations are in the right place, i unfortunatley found out the hard way :(

Initially when you start, you'll be mashing one button alot in battles - It gets better but as someone mentioned earlier, you basically bring 6 pre-set strategies into battle and just switch between them.Two characters are AI so are completley uncontrollable, you simply pick what job class they use which essentially means you're picking one of 6 different ways for them to behave.

The fast paced battles make it really difficult to manually select your commands (since the time it takes to manually pick 6 actions is about twice as long as it takes for your ATB to fill, so to do it manually means wasting precious turns) So you'll be using the auto-battle command and just switching your Paradigms.

There are actions which your AI characters will never use and that can never be activated by auto battle. A few normal attacks such as death, couple of special skills, and few select abilities that require TP to use (like summon). You may make frequent use of these things, but personally i didn't. For the most part, the pace of battle and the need to maintain a constant flow of attacks if you want to stagger your oponent, will leave you mashing the auto-command.

The Crystarium is fairly straight forward. Similar to the sphere grid, though 3-dimensional, it's as simple as following the pre-set path. It's divided into 6 parts, one for each job class. You can choose which class to level, however each character has specialist roles which is recomended you stick to, as the other roles have incredabley massive CP requirements. So as far as levelling is concerned, it's pretty straight forward.

Basically what i'm getting at is, FFXIII does alot of the work for you. It guides you down a corridor, throws you into a pre-set battle, most if not all of which is fought for you, then you spend your CP on the crystarium in pretty much which way your told. My advice would be to forget FFXII exists and try to apreciate FFXIII for what it is, as comparing it to XII is going to lead to incredable disapointment

[champagne supernova]

So far, these are very educated posts.
I was really hoping it would be like FFXII which I very much enjoyed, and even X wasn't too bad.
No wonder the orginal developers left squeenix.
I think I will take your advice Vivi22, and rent it. But, when I do rent it, I will take it in, unbiased and playing it as a Final Fantasy game.
But don't stop there guys! Please continue on with pros and cons, and your thoughts.

I think being unbiased is a good approach. I also was a bit sceptical when I was considering buying it because of the apparent extreme linearity of it. And when I played the other FFs, I did every single side-quest and played every single mini-game there was. I enjoyed running around towns chatting to NPCs and doing random quests (VIII was my favourite in my regard - so many side-quests! And not kill the monster ones).

So XIII completely cut this aspect out of the game. An aspect that I enjoyed. But I bought it and played it with an open mind. So here are some of my thoughts.

Character Backstories/Motives/Development: I would say that this is the best FF in this regard. All the main characters have well-fleshed out backstories, a sincere motivation for taking part in the plot, and they all develop as characters, realistically altering based on the circumstances that they face. And that is a refreshing change to modern FFs, where a lot of characters just tag along for the ride, with very little reason for them to be there. And they never develop as characters (Penelo from FFXII -> you are the biggest culprit).

Plot: The story is basically character-driven. So I think Square got the important bit right by getting the characters done properly. The plot at times can be unrealistic and over-the-top. But it is basically a prop to drive the characters on. And the characters are really top-notch. I think Loony Bob and I were discussing characters and he said that they all had depth - none of this one-dimensional rubbish. Some of them are cooler than others (Fang & Sazh for me), but they all are really good.

Villains: I thought they were good. I don't want to get into the details of it as I will spoil the game for you, but for me, the villains all believed they were doing the right thing. Which is quite invigorating, instead of the usual: I'm an evil person and I want power. So I would say that is similar to Vayne in XII. And finding out that Cocoon was basically a chicken battery reminded me of the Matrix scene when Neo finds out that humans were being used as batteries. There are quite a few Matrix similarities I think

Linearity: Okay, this is not ideal. I like my FF games to be open. But I think that it worked out well. Maybe the developers at XIII were talking crap and the only reason it is linear is because of the work it would require to make it any other way, but they also mentioned that they did it to drive the story forward. If they did, it worked for me. But this is a preference and there definitely will be no consensus on this.

Battle System: Another thing where there will be no consensus. Put it this way. It's like an action movie. Very flashy, very stylish and very quick. But you end up being more of a general to your troops instead of the micro-manager you were in previous FFs. I quite enjoy this. I'm playing IX at the moment. The Festival of the Hunt where you have 12 minutes to hunt down monsters. Well, it took me 50 seconds to dispatch a lowly monster. And I seem to keep choosing the same actions. XIII automates this - fact. But I enjoy this automation rather than repeatedly pressing attack. That is an opinion.
But seriously, it looks really cool. Really, really cool.

I listed a whole lot of flaws in the flaw thread. There are some minor issues I found with it. But here is my final viewpoint on it.

Experience: Sometimes, XIII feels like a glorified movie. I will agree with that. You are kind of fighting to move the story along. I would say that every single FF has done this to some degree (and definitely since VII), but XIII is the most obviously blatant in this. But I enjoyed this story. And I loved the style that this game has. It oozes it.

So, I found the battles fun. In an over-the-top manner. People are going to argue that there is no strategy to them. I found that there was some strategy, especially in the timing. Another thing was that it is entirely possible for you to get defeated by most enemies if you are not paying attention. There are also movements forwards in that your HP automatically restores itself after each battle. I'm sure someone will argue that this is a step backwards, but I remember that in XII I just ran around in circles waiting for my MP to build up so I could cure my entire party before continuing. Sounds like a waste to me. Or continuously having to buy potions etc in every other FF game. Pointless stuff. Battles should be about battles, not how good you are at buying stock.

So I think this game has made progress in some significant areas, although like anything new, it is not perfect. I play FF for the story mainly. I enjoyed the story immensely. Therefore I liked this game. It is not perfect, it could be improved, but I liked it. And seeing this, I have great faith in Versus XIII (which has always been the one I've favoured over the 2).

[Proxy]

Villains: I thought they were good. I don't want to get into the details of it as I will spoil the game for you, but for me, the villains all believed they were doing the right thing. Which is quite invigorating, instead of the usual: I'm an evil person and I want power. So I would say that is similar to Vayne in XII. And finding out that Cocoon was basically a chicken battery reminded me of the Matrix scene when Neo finds out that humans were being used as batteries. There are quite a few Matrix similarities I think


Yeah that villain outlook is seen quite often in movies though. So nothing new for me.
But thank you for pointing out the pros and cons in the sections you did.

[champagne supernova]

Villains: I thought they were good. I don't want to get into the details of it as I will spoil the game for you, but for me, the villains all believed they were doing the right thing. Which is quite invigorating, instead of the usual: I'm an evil person and I want power. So I would say that is similar to Vayne in XII. And finding out that Cocoon was basically a chicken battery reminded me of the Matrix scene when Neo finds out that humans were being used as batteries. There are quite a few Matrix similarities I think


Yeah that villain outlook is seen quite often in movies though. So nothing new for me.
But thank you for pointing out the pros and cons in the sections you did.

Oh agreed. Just not normally in Final Fantasies. Kefka, Sephiroth, Ultimecia? They did not have that outlook!

[Slothy]

I will take it in, unbiased and playing it as a Final Fantasy game. I would advise you play it as a JRPG and not a Final Fantasy game. A significant part of my disappointment with the game was because I was measuring it against a very high standard. It's not really fair to the game, but as we all know the world isn't fair.

I don't know about that. I think there are plenty of JRPG's that don't fall within the FF series that are better than most of the games bearing the FF name. Persona 3 (or really just about any Shin Megami Tensei game I've played), Vagrant Story, Valkyria Chronicles, and hell, even Demon's Souls technically counts. I wouldn't put many FF's up there with them, despite many considering FF to be the pinnacle of JRPG gaming.

[Proxy]

Villains: I thought they were good. I don't want to get into the details of it as I will spoil the game for you, but for me, the villains all believed they were doing the right thing. Which is quite invigorating, instead of the usual: I'm an evil person and I want power. So I would say that is similar to Vayne in XII. And finding out that Cocoon was basically a chicken battery reminded me of the Matrix scene when Neo finds out that humans were being used as batteries. There are quite a few Matrix similarities I think


Yeah that villain outlook is seen quite often in movies though. So nothing new for me.
But thank you for pointing out the pros and cons in the sections you did.

Oh agreed. Just not normally in Final Fantasies. Kefka, Sephiroth, Ultimecia? They did not have that outlook!

Kefka, Ultimecia no. But I believe Seph was thinking along those lines. He thought he was doing the right thing, it was selfish, but he still thought he was. Not really going for more power

[champagne supernova]

Villains: I thought they were good. I don't want to get into the details of it as I will spoil the game for you, but for me, the villains all believed they were doing the right thing. Which is quite invigorating, instead of the usual: I'm an evil person and I want power. So I would say that is similar to Vayne in XII. And finding out that Cocoon was basically a chicken battery reminded me of the Matrix scene when Neo finds out that humans were being used as batteries. There are quite a few Matrix similarities I think


Yeah that villain outlook is seen quite often in movies though. So nothing new for me.
But thank you for pointing out the pros and cons in the sections you did.

Oh agreed. Just not normally in Final Fantasies. Kefka, Sephiroth, Ultimecia? They did not have that outlook!

Kefka, Ultimecia no. But I believe Seph was thinking along those lines. He thought he was doing the right thing, it was selfish, but he still thought he was. Not really going for more power

There's a debate going on about that in the VII thread. No, Sephiroth wanted to become a God. Not as a means to go to other planets and save. Being a god was the end, not the means. Definitely not for the greater good.

[Proxy]

There's a debate going on about that in the VII thread. No, Sephiroth wanted to become a God. Not as a means to go to other planets and save. Being a god was the end, not the means. Definitely not for the greater good.

Touche.
But this topic got off track.
Anyway I'm going to rent it next weekend and give it a shot. I'll let you all know how my FFXIII experience goes. I'll post in this thread.

[VeloZer0]

I will take it in, unbiased and playing it as a Final Fantasy game. I would advise you play it as a JRPG and not a Final Fantasy game. A significant part of my disappointment with the game was because I was measuring it against a very high standard. It's not really fair to the game, but as we all know the world isn't fair.

I don't know about that. I think there are plenty of JRPG's that don't fall within the FF series that are better than most of the games bearing the FF name. Persona 3 (or really just about any Shin Megami Tensei game I've played), Vagrant Story, Valkyria Chronicles, and hell, even Demon's Souls technically counts. I wouldn't put many FF's up there with them, despite many considering FF to be the pinnacle of JRPG gaming.
I meant JRPGs as a whole, there are a whole crap ton of mediocre games out there. I think that most people would consider the average level of quality of the FF series to be higher than that of the average level of JRPGs as a whole. Especially ones that enjoy it enough to sign up for a Final Fantasy forum.

[champagne supernova]

I meant JRPGs as a whole, there are a whole crap ton of mediocre games out there. I think that most people would consider the average level of quality of the FF series to be higher than that of the average level of JRPGs as a whole. Especially ones that enjoy it enough to sign up for a Final Fantasy forum.

I sometimes think that people join up for a Final Fantasy forum to complain about Final Fantasy.

[VeloZer0]

I sometimes think that people join up for a Final Fantasy forum to complain about Final Fantasy.
Well, even if that is the case at least it means they are passionate about the series :D

[Wolf Kanno]

I would rent it at least. Its got its problems but I feel everyone gets something different out of it so unless you go into the game with a mindset of love/hate you have a good chance of finding something enjoyable.

I personally didn't care for it cause it took away several elements I enjoy in RPGs and I felt it ruined my feelings about the world cause you never get to really know it very well so I often kept wondering why my party was trying to save the world so much. I didn't care for the characterization or the pacing of the story but it did actually lead up to a few noteworthy moments in the story so the cast does eventually get better with the exception of Vanille imho.

I felt the actual plot was pretty weak but only becomes really apparent after the party resolves their personal issues sometime around Chapter 7 and 8 and it suddenly becomes the main focus. Some found it compelling but I sort of felt they copped out and gave us a story that was far too simple.

I did like the combat. It has its own issues but nothing I felt was game breaking or anything. The main problem is that the game sacrifices a lot of the gaming elements in favor of telling a character driven story. So I feel a lot of XIII's appeal mostly comes down to whether you like the plot or not cause that's what's going to allow you to look past the other flaws. If the plot really captivates you then you probably wouldn't be bothered by the game's straight line dungeon design or lack of traditional towns. You would also appreciate the straightforward customization since it would not detract you as much.

Overall, I say give it a try at least. I don't feel negative commentary should ever be the final deciding factor on a game's enjoyment factor, you would be surprised what actually works for a person. :D

[Mirage]

The 20 first hours of the game are so stressing that I'm glad I'm past them. It's like being in a narrow corridor with a huge steamroller coming from behind and you have to run for 20 hours to get away from it. Sure, lots of stuff happens in that corridor, but there's always that 'roller behind you as you do them.

[Rad Bromance]

Yeah, if you wanted another FFXII style game you're going to be majorly disappointed. If you wanted another FFX you're going to be slightly less disappointed but still pretty disappointed. If you like adventure games with decent storylines, memorable characters and fun battles, you'll be quite happy. :D

FFXIII is a good game. The problem is, way too many people (ie, all the people who "hate it"), like every other FF title, have to compare and contrast it with the other FF titles and look at it from a "Final Fantasy fan" perspective. If you do this, then yeah, you're probably not going to like it as it doesn't resemble any of the past games much. But if you can look at it as a game in it's own right and not "another FF game", and you like story driven adventure games, you should be more than happy with it. I know I was.

[Shlup]

The main complaint in reviews seems to be that the game it "too linear," but... it's a Final Fantasy, for goodness sake. Yeah, it's super linear. It's an interactive movie, basically, but that's what I expect when I pick up an FF game.

It's pretty, it's fun, I like the characters, the battle system is cool... What the characters are doing or the last couple of chapters makes no sense to me but they look cool doing it so whatever.

[Loony BoB]

By all means rent it. If you don't like the game within the first few hours you aren't going to like it at all
I'd say closer to 10 hours. Basically, you want to get to the point that you unlock the crystarium and figure out how it works, at the very least.

My advice would be to play it as if it wasn't a Final Fantasy game but was just some RPG you heard about. You'll probably appreciate it more if you're not constantly comparing it to other FF games, which I don't know why anyone does anyway because FF games have been pretty radically different over the years.

[Slothy]

By all means rent it. If you don't like the game within the first few hours you aren't going to like it at all
I'd say closer to 10 hours. Basically, you want to get to the point that you unlock the crystarium and figure out how it works, at the very least.

You get the Crystarium five hours in and it honestly doesn't get much more complicated even 20 hours after that. Regardless, the sticking point if he runs into one will likely be the AI controlled characters and auto-battle, and it won't take 10 hours to decide if he likes or doesn't like them. I also hated the general lack of strategy with the whole Paradigm system on top of that, but I might have been able to deal with it if the battles were more involving.

I'd honestly say he'll know whether he likes or hates it in a little over five hours, because none of the early problems I had with the battle system ever got any better.

[Loony BoB]

*shrugs* I'm guessing you're someone who didn't like it from the start and I'm one of those that did. I imagine there are some people who fit inbetween out there, hence giving the game a little more time than one of either of ourselves being fair enough as far as I'm concerned. I found the more I got into the story behind certain characters, the more I enjoyed it, personally. You don't really know anything about some of the characters after five hours. Maybe you're looking at it purely from a gameplay point of view, in which case, yes, shortly after you get out of the stupid garbage dump chapter then I would say that you should have a better idea of whether you like the system or not. But for the characters, it's not until at least the following chapter is over (or preferrably the next chapter after that?) that you really get to feel that you know the characters. Maybe that's just me, though.

EDIT: And I found there was far, far, far, far more strategy involved with the battle system than there has ever been in a Final Fantasy game. I'm not sure what you were after, to be honest, but outside of the strict "black mage is only ever black mage, fighter can't use magic, etc." games, FF has never really had much strategy in the vast majority of battles.

[Rozaheku]

EDIT: And I found there was far, far, far, far more strategy involved with the battle system than there has ever been in a Final Fantasy game. I'm not sure what you were after, to be honest, but outside of the strict "black mage is only ever black mage, fighter can't use magic, etc." games, FF has never really had much strategy in the vast majority of battles.

Amen.

Anyway, the game isn't the best of the series but it certainly isn't the piece of garbage that people make it out to be either. The battle sytem is one of the best things about the game, and I think it's a lot more fun then in other FF games, I never got bored of it at least. It's a game that takes time (that's a nice way to put it), both the story and gameplay take a while to reach their full potential but when it does it really shines. :)

[Slothy]

EDIT: And I found there was far, far, far, far more strategy involved with the battle system than there has ever been in a Final Fantasy game. I'm not sure what you were after, to be honest, but outside of the strict "black mage is only ever black mage, fighter can't use magic, etc." games, FF has never really had much strategy in the vast majority of battles.

I agree to an extent about previous FF games, but regardless, I still found myself making more than three decisions in those games that would affect the outcome of the battle, and generally had to put more thought into character building in the ones that allowed for it, which resulted in more strategy before the battle even started.

I flew through FFXIII all the way to Chapter 11 using a grand total of three Paradigms and mashing auto-battle. That's far from what I would call having any strategic depth. And that's really the problem I have with the battle system; because there's no micromanagement, all you do is decide to attack, heal, or buff/debuff and let the computer do the rest. That's three choices that you'll be making for the entire game. And since most battles don't require any buffs or debuffs, you'll whittle that down to making two choices in most battles.

[Mirage]

The main complaint in reviews seems to be that the game it "too linear," but... it's a Final Fantasy, for goodness sake. Yeah, it's super linear. It's an interactive movie, basically, but that's what I expect when I pick up an FF game.

It's pretty, it's fun, I like the characters, the battle system is cool... What the characters are doing or the last couple of chapters makes no sense to me but they look cool doing it so whatever.

Its linearity isn't a problem to me. I mean, I liked FF10 and that's pretty damned linear for at least just as long as FF13.

But it doesn't have that steamroller behind you all the time. Maybe it's the pacing I don't like. There were almost no breathers, it was just STORYSTORYOMGFLASHYTHINGSHAPPENINGSTORYSTORYSTORYHUUUUUUGEMONSTERSTORYSTORYSTORY with almost no time to relax and find out anything else about the world. Almost every non-main-story information about the world you were in were fed to you by a stupid data log, rather than being things you found out about through talking to people, optional cut scenes.

[Loony BoB]

You know, I'm starting to think we should close this thread and just link to the last few that we said all of this stuff in beforehand. xD It would probably save ourselves a bit of time. Someone remind me to do this next time we have one of these threads.

[Mirage]

Nah, people who don't want to write up all their stuff again could just, you know, not post. :p.

[Shin Gouken]

EDIT: And I found there was far, far, far, far more strategy involved with the battle system than there has ever been in a Final Fantasy game. I'm not sure what you were after, to be honest, but outside of the strict "black mage is only ever black mage, fighter can't use magic, etc." games, FF has never really had much strategy in the vast majority of battles.

wow, i'm going to have to heavily disagree with that.

In FFXIII, you bring out a synergist to cast buffs, a sabetour to debuff your oponent, a sentinel to block an attack, a medic to heal and then Rav+Com for damage - For more or less every single battle. That's not strategy.

The arguement follows, how is that different from any other final fantasy. The answer is simple - you choose what buffs to cast depending on your situation, you decide what benefits you most and what you have time to cast. Instead of bringing out a synergist and hoping he casts the one you want.

Previous FF's had more options.

Something as simple as Reflect allowed you to build new strategies. You could reflect enemy spells but would have to create ways of bypassing it to heal or cast stat buffs. What about the old classic Blue magic spells like white wind and ????. Giving these to a class with high HP makes them a reliable healer but also provides them with a desperation attack when low on HP. What happened to two of my personal favorites: Beserk and Bubble? I make it that FFXII has about 25 more commands than FFXIII and also gives you the ability to strategize with the positioning of your team and allows you to carry reserves for different purposes.

I'd like to ask, how many people can really distuigish the attacks of a sentinal? Do you really need different types of defend and provoke? Half the commands in this game are lazy ways to justify certain job roles. The medic has just a few commands and yet its one of the most used classes.

FFXIII is not without some strategy, but to compare it to any other FF is insulting them, to claim that it's better is just nonsense

[Loony BoB]

No, it's not insulting and it's not nonsense. Keep reading, though, before I lose you on my first statement. ;)

I don't know about you, but in previous FF's all I did was attack, attack, attack once I was at a high enough level. Sure, when you're at a high enough level in FFXIII, you too can do this, but ideally you'll still cast things such as Haste etc. first, so it's got a bit of thinking to do. So either way, there's not much thinking to be done. However, if you're going to fight things earlier on, you don't have the simple options. You make do with the jobs you have available to you up until around chapter 10, and sometimes those options aren't favourable and you have to come up with alternative strategies. And even when superpowered, you still tend to need to know what you're doing if you want to get five stars against some of the harder monsters.

I'd say I thought far more during FFXIII battles than I did during VII, VIII or X. XII possibly required some more thought for particular battles, mind you. For FFV, which I've been playing recently enough, I just attack, attack, attack through most battles, too. With any job, too. If you want to level up four white mages you just put barehanded onto their second job thing and unequip whatever and go hunting, no problems will be had at all. It's a walk in the park. :p Strategy, as I said, mostly goes out the window when you can level your party as much as you like. With XIII, they restrict that so on occasion you will have to think things through. If the thinking is quick and easy for you based on your experience of FF enemies, then good for you, but that doesn't mean they're that much easier than previous FF's, just that you already know what to expect.

EDIT: I will concede absolutely that Reflect allows for a dramatic increase in potential strategy, however I will also point out that you will rarely need it. I only used Reflect on about one battle in each previous incarnation if I recall correctly. It may have been useful in other areas but when you can just attack for buttloads to begin with and walk through your enemies after you've been gil hunting for a while, it's not worth the waste of MP.

[Shin Gouken]

No, it's not insulting and it's not nonsense. Keep reading, though, before I lose you on my first statement. ;)

I don't know about you, but in previous FF's all I did was attack, attack, attack once I was at a high enough level. Sure, when you're at a high enough level in FFXIII, you too can do this, but ideally you'll still cast things such as Haste etc. first, so it's got a bit of thinking to do. So either way, there's not much thinking to be done. However, if you're going to fight things earlier on, you don't have the simple options. You make do with the jobs you have available to you up until around chapter 10, and sometimes those options aren't favourable and you have to come up with alternative strategies. And even when superpowered, you still tend to need to know what you're doing if you want to get five stars against some of the harder monsters.

I'd say I thought far more during FFXIII battles than I did during VII, VIII or X. XII possibly required some more thought for particular battles, mind you. For FFV, which I've been playing recently enough, I just attack, attack, attack through most battles, too. With any job, too. If you want to level up four white mages you just put barehanded onto their second job thing and unequip whatever and go hunting, no problems will be had at all. It's a walk in the park. :p Strategy, as I said, mostly goes out the window when you can level your party as much as you like. With XIII, they restrict that so on occasion you will have to think things through. If the thinking is quick and easy for you based on your experience of FF enemies, then good for you, but that doesn't mean they're that much easier than previous FF's, just that you already know what to expect.

EDIT: I will concede absolutely that Reflect allows for a dramatic increase in potential strategy, however I will also point out that you will rarely need it. I only used Reflect on about one battle in each previous incarnation if I recall correctly. It may have been useful in other areas but when you can just attack for buttloads to begin with and walk through your enemies after you've been gil hunting for a while, it's not worth the waste of MP.

So your arguement is basically that because FFXIII prevents you from over-levelling, it's more strategic than FFV because you can over-level and not need strategy? FFV offers hundreds more potential party set ups that allow for an incredable amount of strategy, over-leveling so you wont need to bother with strategy isn't a flaw in the game, it's a choice you make when you play.

(On a quick side note, i like that players have the option to power level. It's like an in-built difficulty setting. If the game is too easy then keep your levels lower, if it's too hard then level up.)

I also don't agree that barefist on a team of white mages will work. White mages lack both speed and defense, using barefist effectively would require bringing your mages into the front row which is essentially asking for them to be killed. If this is something you have done, then i can only presume that you were over-levelled or fighting enemies much weaker than yourself.

Again, i'm not arguing that there isn't any strategy to FFXIII, but even the most powerful marks can be destroyed with a 5star ranking with little difficulty. In fact i only remember 3 giving me trouble: Vercingetorix of course, the pair of Ratkavija's and gigantaur. Though gigantaur can only be beaten with 5stars with luck, Ratkavija's just needed a little magic defense, and V-torix though understandabley tougher wasn't on the same level as Yiazmat, Neo shinryu or any other uber boss from any FF.

There are very few occasions in FFXIII where you find that you have to manually pick a command, 95% of the time you just need to change to one of 6 paradigms. I personally miss the days when fighting a hard-ass boss when i had to decide if i would revive my KO'd party member or heal my existing ones. When you had to choose whether you wanted to get up protect or shell and whether you would use Ultima or conserve your MP to heal. These choices are just absent in FFXIII which not only reduces the tension of harder battles, but removes half the fun.

[Loony BoB]

Thing is, for the most part I don't even need to power level. I just like to have enough gil to get the things you can purchase in the game. Doing that makes me walk through most enemies. Also, the fact that you run out of HP and MP means the enemies in previous FFs were far easier to compensate for that. However, if you knew what you were doing then you never really ran low - you found tents lying around so often that you could always heal up again. Depending on your enemy in FFXIII, you need to approach them in different ways. You can't tell me that the Gui, the Munchkin, the Behemoth and the "what there are like ten enemies" battles all require the same strategy. You simply have to know what you're doing. Sure, that might be a pretty obvious thing, but then, you still have to do that or you're dead.

If you think the most powerful marks are easy to get a five star ranking in then maybe you're calling them the most powerful just because they're a high number or a high ranking. Don't mistake the grade of the mark for how powerful they are. I could walk over some A marks but some B marks required me to think a bit. Also, again, it depends on your own level and equipment. If you use +STR or +MAG stuff, it'll be harder to get the five stars. How easy is it to get five stars against the hardest mark of them all, anyway - Gigantuar? Pretty hard!

As I said, maybe our different strategies made things easier for you than for myself in XIII but there are definite strategies for most enemy groups/individuals and you need to approach them with that in mind, particularly when you aren't of a high level and don't have every job unlocked.

"But power leveling is a choice!" - so? I could say that using the crystarium at all is a choice, too. You could call that power leveling. Either way, it removes the need for strategy altogether in older FF's whilst in this one it doesn't, because you can't. At the end, you can generally get through most things easily, but only once you're maxed, and even then, you still need to use certain paradigms at certain times if you want to get things done efficiently.

Unlike FFVII and VIII, where as I said, attack, attack, attack. You simply can't get away with that in XIII.

[Shin Gouken]

Thing is, for the most part I don't even need to power level. I just like to have enough gil to get the things you can purchase in the game. Doing that makes me walk through most enemies. Also, the fact that you run out of HP and MP means the enemies in previous FFs were far easier to compensate for that. However, if you knew what you were doing then you never really ran low - you found tents lying around so often that you could always heal up again. Depending on your enemy in FFXIII, you need to approach them in different ways. You can't tell me that the Gui, the Munchkin, the Behemoth and the "what there are like ten enemies" battles all require the same strategy. You simply have to know what you're doing. Sure, that might be a pretty obvious thing, but then, you still have to do that or you're dead.

If you think the most powerful marks are easy to get a five star ranking in then maybe you're calling them the most powerful just because they're a high number or a high ranking. Don't mistake the grade of the mark for how powerful they are. I could walk over some A marks but some B marks required me to think a bit. Also, again, it depends on your own level and equipment. If you use +STR or +MAG stuff, it'll be harder to get the five stars. How easy is it to get five stars against the hardest mark of them all, anyway - Gigantuar? Pretty hard!

As I said, maybe our different strategies made things easier for you than for myself in XIII but there are definite strategies for most enemy groups/individuals and you need to approach them with that in mind, particularly when you aren't of a high level and don't have every job unlocked.

"But power leveling is a choice!" - so? I could say that using the crystarium at all is a choice, too. You could call that power leveling. Either way, it removes the need for strategy altogether in older FF's whilst in this one it doesn't, because you can't. At the end, you can generally get through most things easily, but only once you're maxed, and even then, you still need to use certain paradigms at certain times if you want to get things done efficiently.

Unlike FFVII and VIII, where as I said, attack, attack, attack. You simply can't get away with that in XIII.

I agree you still need to make use of certain strategies in FFXIII (whether mazed out or not) but i still can't agree that it is more strategic than previous FF's. VIII was pretty broken btw so i can't argue with mashing attack there. VII too was pretty easy so i can't really argue with that either.

But i still fail to see how needing to bring out a sentinel at specific times, or by switching from COM/RAV/RAV to COM/COM/RAV is really an in depth strategy. Having most battles require each class to participate isn't really highly strategic, it's just common sense. I don't feel a sense of accomplishment when i switch in a sentinel to take the blunt of an attack, i feel like ive more or less been told to do so.

Just on another quick note. FFXIII discourages the use of almost all weapons and accesories. Higher grade weapons and STR/MAG + accesories make it almost impossible to score 5 Stars on anything, not to mention that Auto-abilities or critical-abilities provided by accesories are one time use which again discourages you from using them. However in FFXII each weapon behaves differentley (targeting def or mag def, ignoring def, short range, long range, one handed, two handed, multiple hit rate, charge time, elemental properties or status effects, changing ammunition and adding shields etc) this plays a huge part in how you strategize.

FFXIII just doesn't allow for much imo. Switching between 6 roles is fine, it's strategic enough to keep you entertained for a reasonable amount of time. But like i said, a medic has just 4 abilities, a sentinel simply has a few variations of the same two attacks. For the most part, it's not particularly important what spells your ravager casts, and you don't really get a say in what buff/debuffs your Syn/Sab is casting.

At least you have the option to be more strategic in previous FF's. I understand there comes a point where you can simply attack repeatedly, but it's not really fair to over level your characters and then complain there was no need to use strategy

[champagne supernova]

I agree with Loony Bob. XIII might not be the most strategic game in the world, but no Final Fantasy has ever been. And yes, if you decide to over-level, then obviously the game will be simple.

But you know what is interesting about XIII. Google what is Lightning's best weapon. Or Sazh. Or any of the characters. Then Google a boss and see the strategies people use. And then note: everybody has a different opinion.

Surely that is a sign of a great battle system - that there is not one fixed way of beating a boss.

And again, I've been playing IX recently. I must have hit the Attack button 95% of the time. Lots of strategy there.

[Lamia]

No way. Final Fantasy XIII is easily more strategic than most other FFs. Heck, if you're not careful a regular mob can destroy you.

What paradigms to use, in what order, and their timing are very important to the flow of battle. For instance, I have found that I can be "too defensive" by spamming Combat Clinic and the enemies end up damaging through my healing. Another healing paradigm worked better. Also, the way the characters move around the battle area is affected by their role, and this strategy can be used to dodge some AoE attacks.

Meh. I could go on. It seems simple, but it's surprisingly nuanced.

One more thing though--sure, there are easy, and obvious paradigm strategies to use that are safe and situational however those don't yield a very high battle rating. I think the developers were smart for measuring the success of fights as this gives the player an incentive to develope more efficient strategies.

[Mirage]

Sazh blitz spam with 3000 str sure is tactical, guyz

[Mo-Nercy]

Yes, rent it. Then buy it, if you like it.

If you go into this expecting it to be just as good as whatever your favourite FF is, you'll likely be disappointed. If you go into it expecting it to be your new favourite FF, you probably haven't played very many. It's relatively weak compared to others in the series, but IMO, it's still a very good game. A worthy inclusion to anyone's 360 or PS3 library.

Where aspects of 'traditional' FF elements have been given less emphasis or omitted, you find a battle system that makes you think (as others have said, it's not just Attack, Attack, Attack. Even the average, non-boss monster can be demanding enough for you have to do a few paradigm shifts and work out a loose strategy). So there's no world map, towns, shops or end-game airship. It doesn't make it less of a game. A crappy battle system would - and FFXIII certainly doesn't have that.

[champagne supernova]

Sazh blitz spam with 3000 str sure is tactical, guyz

Sazh can even reach 3000 STR? Seriously? Okay, I finished the game and he was chilling on like 400/500. 600 tops.

But you can throw that analogy at any FF game. Squall - junction Ultima to Str - Renzokuken (bye bye any boss).

X - Get Ultimate Weapon. Break Tidus' HP limit and get it to 99 999. Kill Jecht in one hit (okay, I got it up to about 18 000 and killed Jecht in 2 hits).

[Mirage]

yes, it's not too hard to do

[champagne supernova]

yes, it's not too hard to do

How many hours are we talking here?

[Mirage]

yes, it's not too hard to do

How many hours are we talking here?

Time doesn't equal difficulty :p.

But anyway, just get a maxed out hyades magnums and 4x power gloves. It'll cost you perhaps a million gil, which you should already have (or have in unsold items) when you're at chapter 13 if you've done that robot sidequest in oerba. The actual upgrading doesn't take a lot of time. With this stuff, you can even take down those hard adamantoises in pulse without having more than like 12k HP, if you play your cards right.

[Proxy]

So i rented the game. Played it, and loved it. but for the most part it didnt share too much with other final fantasy games, but I did really enjoy it, and am now debating whether to buy it or not. thanks for the tips guys! much appreciated.

[Sephiroth]

I am glad to see how many people really like it.

[Proxy]

I am glad to see how many people really like it.

it really was enjoyable to play. I was so hesistant at first but it grew on me, and as much as it doesn't feel like a final fantasy game, it was still a great game all around. Even though I only got to disc 2 lol.
PS snow is such a bamf.