Final Fantasy X...

[Lamia]

It's weird. Final Fantasy X at the time made me about as upset as FFXIII did for a lot of people.

Final Fantasy X was linear. Very linear. The game forces you through the story and the formula is as follows: cutscene, trail, boss fight, town, trial/temple, cutscene, trail, boss fight...ect ect

You think having no towns is bad? Try having NO DUNGEONS. The trials with the sphere puzzles do not count for me. I was terribly upset that there isnt any dungeons in the storyline. The only dungeon in the game is optional.

The critics nor did anybody else didn't mention it's linearity or the lack of dungeons... :confused: So, why the heck is FFXIII getting so much flack? It really doesn't make any sense.

[BarelySeeAtAll]

I'm no expert, but maybe because XIII was so anticipated and had so many expectations, because the makers could really go to town, and everything that was bad before should have been sewn up and made better?

Like I say, no expert so..don't jump down my throat please. People have nasty habits of doing that, when all I be trying to do is answer a question in my own words.

[Shin Gouken]

Personally for me, i felt FFX told its story better. With Tidus being thrown into an unknown world, people are helpful and fill him in on the things he needs to know, but FFXIII dumps you in the middle and pushes the plot forward without explaining anything.

FFX didn't feel that linear to me. It may have been the puzzle solving, or the fact that there were still half a dozen towns to explore, and not only the calm lands but the thunder plains and bikanel island were very big open places.

Also, the cloister of trials, chocobo racing, blitzball, hidden aeons, the monster arena and other additional things broke up the formula of walk-battle-cutscene which you can argue reduces at least the feel of the linear paths.

My point is, X for the most part had very linear paths and focused on trying to progress the story smoothly. But it still offered the player a choice to take a break and do something else or at least tried to mix up the formula a little. FFXIII offers nothing beside walk-battle-cutscene.

And just a quick note - the missions don't count. Why? Because they are intended as additional content after the story has been finished and still follow the formula of walk-battle-walk battle.

[Flying Arrow]

^ X did tell its story better, so that's one thing.

However, I have to disagree that X is substantially better than XIII as most people say. It DOES have a strategic battle system and a (barely) explorable world (things XIII mostly lack, among other things), and there ARE ways in which X immerses he player better using the standard design of FFs up to that point (towns, NPCs, etc) but the game is still a straight-line to a fault and lacks any kind of difficulty. Like XIII, it just kind of guides the player through to the end without providing much in the way of obstacles, hitches, or challenges, as if the entire purpose to even playing the game is to get through it as fast as possible.

I actually don't understand the posters who love X and abhor XIII. XIII is cut from the same lame cloth as X - it just manages to be even more uninspired (design-wise) and boring. The difference between XIII and X is that on X's release, FFs were seeing a new entry per year but now with XIII, almost a whole console generation had passed since XII, and not only has XIII been hotly anticipated but it's been expected to fill the void of the all the years before (and after) of main series absence. Unreasonable expectations, really, but SE couldn't have done more to show that those running the series on the whole have run out of ideas long, long ago.

[Shlup]

I didn't like FFX at all. xP

I haven't noticed FFXIII getting all that much flak... mostly 'cause I ignore it. ^_^ I just played the game, enjoyed the game, and moved on. Is it really getting that much more crap than FFX did?

[Lamia]

Duly noted, Shin Gouken. The fact that the there were towns and more interactive things to do other than battle did help the game in it's linearity. I actually ended up loving Final Fantasy X but was miserable up until the acquisition of the airship, but then I started to seriously appreciate the sphere grid. I spent a lot of time getting all the extra stuff in the game. So I am not bashing FFX, but pointing out that it is similar to FFXIII and yet didn't get any of the same criticism. Thanks Flying Arrow for pointing out that FFXIII is "...cut from the same cloth as X".

However, I still think the lack of any dungeons in FFX is about as severe as the lack of towns in FFXIII. Redundant glyph/sphere puzzles replace dungeons about as much as getting the opportunity to walk around Nautilus replaces towns in FFXIII.

Shin Gouken, you cite the Calm Lands, and Thunderplains as big and "open" areas. FFXIII has them too actually, Pulse, the Fifth Ark, and the ship Palamecia had some pretty big rooms and some divergent trails (and this is only of what I have discovered so far, and I am half way through the game).

Flying Arrow, I think XIII has a strategic battle system... In fact, FFXIII has given me twice the trouble that X did. You may argue that it's the speed of battle and not actually tactics... But poor tactics in FFXIII can end in a swift defeat or if you do survive, a bad rating. Monster parties are also "crafted" in FFXIII, the combinations of certain types of monsters don't repeat and the toughest mixtures are usually in the way of treasure chests.


I will agree that FFXIII is a bit "empty" without a VARIETY of things to do. But I think that it has the best character development yet. The battle system is EXCELLENT, and I don't compare it to older FFs battle systems because imo that is like comparing apples and oranges. It makes more sense to compare it to XII; I personally think it is an improvement. It also seems to me the logical evolution of Final Fantasy.

As someone mentioned, the expectations of this game were high because it had been 3 years since an FF release. This game took a lot of risks, but the game would have also gotten flak if it stuck to the same ol formula too... FF cannot comfortably go back to that. In fact, it's better off this way--the controversial game that it is.

[*Devore*]

X was very linear, but I still like it a lot.

But for me, its less about X and more about XII. XII was soooooooo open and wide that there was at least two different ways to get to one place and sometimes there was about five ways to get somewhere. The maps were pretty big with extra missions aplenty. I personally love the game, even though most people hate it, going from that to a game that was extremely linear and gave you very little in extra content is why I don't like it.

[Mo-Nercy]

The linearity of X was broken up by the fact the you could go back to towns you've already visited after you get the airship and the sidequest game of Blitzball which could be accessed from any save sphere. That's the biggest difference for me.

Even if XIII did give you the option to go back to previous areas; why would you want to? No towns, no variety in sidequests, no NPCs to speak to, no unique shops.

I'm not saying XIII is horrible. I've always been in the camp that states XIII is a good game, but it's not better than X. The critics did mention the linearity of X, btw. Every Final Fantasy has gone through it's hazing period where the haters gotta haters, but the dust settles soon enough for all of them.

[Suikojowy]

I remember starting a similar thread a month or so ago and came to the conclusion that Final Fantasy XIII and X aren't as similar as people were trying to make me believe, they are two different games and just because you liked or disliked one doesn't mean you have to feel the same the way about the other.

They have some similarities but for the reasons many people gave I never quite noticed the linearity of Final Fantasy X as much as I did XIII, I suppose another part of that is the areas were linked together in order to link one world instead of being separate random areas. I know a lot of people think the complete opposite of this but I also enjoyed X's story more and got into it a lot more than I did XIII, the characters were more likable, the gameplay/battle system was better and even though it wasn't the strongest in the series the music was better than XIII too.


Each to their own I suppose.

[Lexy]

I think it's because we hadn't been spoiled with XII yet when X came out. I remember really liking X and thinking it felt very similar to all the other FF's, exploration wise. It doesn't seem to make sense, because the game had the new kind of world map and no real airship, but those things didn't bother me for whatever reason, probably because X is a good game in other ways.
I think if X came out after XII, I would criticize it for being very linear whereas I didn't mind it at the time. It just seems like a huge step back to release a game like XIII after giving us the enormous world of XII.
This is off topic, but Devore mentioned that most people hate XII...this is so weird to me because all of my friends who play video games loved it. I always thought it was a pretty well regarded game.

[Shiny]

The dungeons in Final Fantasy X were actually my least favorite thing about that game aside from the thunderbolt dodging. I am glad it is not featured in Final Fantasy XIII. It's not that I dislike puzzles, but after a while I found those particular ones to be tedious. One thing I like about FFXIII that FFX and some other FF's don't have is more of a focus on the entire party than just the p.o.v. of a sole character. Needless to say, I still prefer FFX over FFXIII.

[Shin Gouken]

I think it's because we hadn't been spoiled with XII yet when X came out. I remember really liking X and thinking it felt very similar to all the other FF's, exploration wise. It doesn't seem to make sense, because the game had the new kind of world map and no real airship, but those things didn't bother me for whatever reason, probably because X is a good game in other ways.
I think if X came out after XII, I would criticize it for being very linear whereas I didn't mind it at the time. It just seems like a huge step back to release a game like XIII after giving us the enormous world of XII.
This is off topic, but Devore mentioned that most people hate XII...this is so weird to me because all of my friends who play video games loved it. I always thought it was a pretty well regarded game.

Slowly, it seems more and more people are appearing to show FFXII its deserved recognition and apreciation. Maybe because FFXIII was so :bou::bou::bou::bou:.

[VeloZer0]

Naturally all the people who disliked FF12 will forget about it and move on, whereas the people who liked it will continue to talk about it.

Right now everyone is talking about FF13, but in 5 years the people who disliked it will be bored of talking about it and the people who enjoyed it will still be discussing it.

[Karifean]

I liked Final Fantasy XIII, but IMO the quality is :( compared to other Final Fantasies. For instance, FF IX just came on PlayStation Store ... ... ... need I say more?

One thing I really missed in FFXIII is not having choice what your characters say. I noticed that especially when playing IX. X also gave you this choice a lot, unlike XIII.

[Lamia]

Well, it all comes down to opinions! FFXIII has some flaws but I think it has enough qualities to make it a really good game. There are aspects of the game that havent been done better yet, IMO. The obvious and already thoroughly discussed in other threats (and debated) are the character development and battle system. It's a universal opinion that the lack of mini games and side quests other than hunts is unfortunate.

Although I would like to point out that I am surprised at how complicated the weapon upgrading system is. It's much easier to screw up than X's and especially IX's. It is also crucial for post-game content. That being said, there are some superbeasts in XIII! I have to give the edge XIII over XII. I know that Yiazmat has 51 mil hp and I have fought him myself, but the fact that you can leave the battle and return makes the whole experience underwhelming. The boss felt like a chore instead of an epic battle. Slaying Adamatoise's in FFXIII is stuff of legend, however.

[Shin Gouken]

The obvious and already thoroughly discussed in other threats (and debated) are the character development and battle system.

Character development means nothing if the characters themselves are generic copies of previous FF characters. Take Cloud, slap a new back story on him and give him a smile by end game and bang - you got a new character with more develpment.


Although I would like to point out that I am surprised at how complicated the weapon upgrading system is. It's much easier to screw up than X's and especially IX's.

It's as easy as take whatever crap you got and dump it all into one weapon. All you really need to know is to use organic components first to boost the multiplier but that's as complicated as it gets.

FFX and FFXII required SPECIFIC ingredients which forced you to visit different locations to shop, steal or find the items you want. In FFXIII you just bulk buy the same two components.


It is also crucial for post-game content.

Actually... no it isn't. FFXIII actively discourages the use of superior weapons because 5 star post battle rankings are nearly impossible when you use them. Also, your strength really isn't that important once you stagger something and reach a chain bonus that allows you to deal x 999% damage.


That being said, there are some superbeasts in XIII! I have to give the edge XIII over XII. I know that Yiazmat has 51 mil hp and I have fought him myself, but the fact that you can leave the battle and return makes the whole experience underwhelming. The boss felt like a chore instead of an epic battle. Slaying Adamatoise's in FFXIII is stuff of legend, however.

Everything in FFXIII has a cheap way to kill it. Ratkavija's giving you trouble - make yourself immune to magic. Need to kill adamantoises - spam death. Even the super boss vercingatorix is eaten away by poisen while you sit there and defend while he dies. No effort went into these bosses at all.

Yiazmat is a test of endurance and only becomes challenging after going below 5million HP where his physical attack gains no charge time and his multiple hit rating goes up stupidly high. But still, try and beat him without leaving to save. He has a number of tricks that can throw you off and if you're not paying attention you'll pay for it (Reflect on your party is nasty if you don't catch him do it) Still, not the toughest boss in XII in my opinion but effort wise, he's got alot more going on than any boss in XIII

[Jessweeee♪]

FFX and FFXIII are both very linear. Especially FFXIII. I'm pretty sure you can only go back to Gran Pulse. They are also both my favorite games in the series. It all comes down to whether or not you consider this a good thing. As for me, I actually prefer it so long as the story is to my liking. Though FFXII is also a favorite.

[Nod]

IMO FFXIII was indeed too linear. I didn't enjoy it as much as FFX, because in FFX I felt I had really gotten to know the characters and enjoyed their development. FFXIII didn't have this for me, I thought the dialogue was stilted and the character development contrived.
I suppose I thought that with the massive capacity at their disposal Square'd create something truly epic, but in hindsight they can make more money by releasing sequels or other additional tidbits, rather than having it all in one game. Although this is rather cynical I guess.

Finally, after working really hard and kicking the crap out of that game, I was thoroughly let down by the end sequence! :roll:

[Jessweeee♪]

Contrived? Did we play the same game? xD

[Nod]

I mean it seemed to me like they tried extra hard to portray Lightning as having a certain mindset, and then they switch it up pretty quickly! It was almost as though they thought, "well, the lead character has to be bad-ass and have a major epiphany midway so let's not be subtle about it". I didn't feel there was a sequence of events that led her to change. Mind you as a caveat, I've not played FFXIII for about 2 months so my memory's a bit hazy, flame away if I'm wrong about this... :)

Actually, thinking about it, I'd probably be less bitter if there'd been a better end-of-game sequence....

[champagne supernova]

Contrived? Did we play the same game? xD

I think I played the game you played. Maybe Squenix shipped out 2 versions of the game and we got the cool ones :p

[Yliette]

FFX may technically not have any objective dungeons but it did offer exploration and challenging boss fights which could still be as good as any dungeon. It's only linear until after the battle with Yunalesca in the Zanarkand Ruins. It's sky's the limit from there on. And even during the linear moments you have other things to do if you get bored with the main objectives most specifically Blitzball.

In FFXIII there's no other way but forward. Follow the yellow exclamation point on the map or be stuck in that area forever. The game doesn't offer you to take a break. In fact it feels more like a strategic adventure game rather than an RPG.

As for the characters, I'll have to disagree that they're lifeless. On the other hand they're one of the most diverse casts I've encountered (the most bland IMO is the cast of FFXII save for Balthier); A female ex-soldier, a hot-headed leader of some gang, an awkward and inexperienced teenager, a compassionate middle-aged man, a vibrant youth with a dark secret and an aggressive woman. I must say they're portrayed quite realistically. I liked how they interacted with each other and how they each have their own ordeals to overcome.

On a final note FFXIII's main saving grace is its innovative and fast-paced Paradigm Shift battle system. It served as the pillars to prevent the game from falling into a wreck. And I'm glad Square-Enix was gracious enough to give you the option to retry in the middle of battle rather than having to soft reset. If you get a Game Over you can instantly try again rather than be brought all the way back to the starting screen.

But at the bottom line I'm thoroughly enjoying FFXIII. It's still a keeper and I'm enjoying it as much as FFX. :)

[Omni-Odin]

I hate to go straight out and say it, but FFX whooped FFXIII in almost every aspect. The 'linear' paths in X at least had a wide-open enough expanse to miss a treasure chest or something. The battle system in X was slow, yes, but much better than XIII's. I like to control my characters, sorry Squenix. The Paradigm system was "unique", but bored me very quickly. Shin said it best "Everything in FFXIII has a cheap way to kill it. Ratkavija's giving you trouble - make yourself immune to magic. Need to kill adamantoises - spam death. Even the super boss vercingatorix is eaten away by poisen while you sit there and defend while he dies. No effort went into these bosses at all." FFXII's battle system was pretty enjoyable but had the same flaw as XIII.

For story, FFX was much much better. I actually had a feel like: "I'm about to set off on a quest with these people, but hey let me explore this beach and talk to the NPCs to hear what they say about the pilgrimage before I set off." In XIII, the best thing the NPCs say is "OH MY GOD, Eden's gonnnaaa dieeeee!!!!!" (Or something of that nature lol) And then I was on my way to another battle and non-character building cutscene. Followed of course by me looking at the Datalog to see what the F just actually happened.

[BG-57]

First of all, the linearity. I don't find that bad in of itself, but FFXIII calls attention to its linear nature far more than FFX. Both have wires that pull you in certain directions and actions but in FFXIII you can see them a lot more clearly. Beyond the map screens and character development grids there is the straightjacket on gameplay that is slowly and gradually removed until about the halfway mark. That bothers me the most.

As for cast, in FFX there was as good balance of goofy characters (Tidus, Rikku), serious characters (Auron, Lulu, Kimahri) and mixed (Yuna). So while some were more likeable than others they played off each other well in interesting ways. FFXIII ranged from the simply awesome (Sazh) to the simply annoying (Vanille), but again they played off each other well. Both plots had some absurd situations and awkward character moments but an overall an engaging experience for both.

Once I got to control paradigms I've generally enjoyed the autobattle aspects of gameplay where timing switching paradigms is the real strategy as opposed to entering individual commands. I liked FFX's swap in system a little better. The downside to autobattle is that characters don't always perform the action you would want them to at critical moments. It doesn't help that the leader can't be allowed to fall. Why not have the game over if everyone gets wiped out? As previously mentioned although you can get easily pummeled until you figure out a suitable strategy, the game is generous in allowing you to start over to try again. They way the battles are handled it's just as well.

Overall I prefer FFX to FFXIII, but I don't think the latter is a bad game, it just has deeper flaws that the gorgeous graphics can't conceal.

[Elskidor]

I have a theory on why FFXII and FFXIII probably got bashed so much worse than any of the other titles at release. From the original Final Fantasy release in 1987 we were given a new game yearly or every 2 years and if we didn't like it then it wasn't a big deal because we all knew another game would be out right around the corner. This was the way it was until we hit 2001's Final Fantasy X when that yearly wait turned into a 5 year wait. The longer the wait the higher the expectations are going to be, and if it's not PERFECT, then why the hell did we all have to wait so long?? Bash the game out of disgust of it's lack of perfection and ignore the good qualities, because they still aren't good enough to make up for that massive wait. That's just my theory anyway. I really wish they would quit fooling around with top notch graphics and go back to giving us great games every year or every 2 years. The makers ambition to make everything prettier than the last is gone too far, and I don't think it's needed.

[Jessweeee♪]

Perhaps you could use the time to branch out your game collection! I've got a nice flow of games coming in over the next few years to keep me occupied, and I've already got backup on that list due to unemployment xD

[Hollycat]

You think having no towns is bad? Try having NO DUNGEONS. The trials with the sphere puzzles do not count for me. I was terribly upset that there isnt any dungeons in the storyline. The only dungeon in the game is optional.

The critics nor did anybody else didn't mention it's linearity or the lack of dungeons... :confused: So, why the heck is FFXIII getting so much flack? It really doesn't make any sense.

All dungeons are optional, and there is more than one in ffx. if you wanna get technical, the mountain path is a dungeon, as is:

remiem temple (IT SO COUNTS) Omega area.... ok you winm rmeiem has more than one exit.... omega is optional....
DANG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU JUST RUINED FFX!

[Bolivar]

They have some similarities but for the reasons many people gave I never quite noticed the linearity of Final Fantasy X as much as I did XIII, I suppose another part of that is the areas were linked together in order to link one world instead of being separate random areas.

Couldn't have said it better myself. In FFX, I never noticed the linearity, I was too busy having a great quest.

I think one part of this is how far away the background is in the beginning of the game in FFXIII - you're like on this impossible tiny corridors about a mile away from the edges of some... thing, whereas in FFX, you play as Tidus running through that damn city. And it was TIGHT!

On top of the just better variety and pacing that everyone has mentioned, FFX was just so much more of an incredibly deeper game. It had the Jecht Spheres where you can optionally learn more about the backstory of the world... through video journals of a man talking to his son. It had the Al-Bhed alphabet where you can eventually decipher the hidden language of the esoteric race in the game, then port that over for subsequent playthroughs to figure out what they're saying in the beginning. It wasn't just battle, cutscene, battle, cutscene, it was battle, cutscene, town investigation, optional mini-games, puzzle solving in the temple, boss strategies for the Aeons, then cutscene, then battle, then cutscene, etc. In FFXIII there is literally nothing to do when playing except fighting.

Even with all that being said, I can't bring myself to say it's a bad game. It has great characters, a great battle system, wonderful graphics, enjoyable music, all the makings of a great game. But it pales in comparison to older entries, especially FFX and FFXII which I feel are maturing into modern masterpieces, at least for me. There's really nothing wrong with that, if anything we should let the comparisons go and just enjoy it for the good game that it is.

But Elskidor also made an incredible point, Square really needs to get off their asses and releasing these things more often, these waits are indefensible. I think what happened was they were so caught up in cashing in on the FFVII compilation, X sequel, Kingdom Hearts games, and countless smaller projects, that they forgot to have a team already working on the next-generation hardware ready to have a game on standby to release within the first year. It was a crucial mistake that I don't think they'll ever recover from, honestly.

[Hollycat]

x is a classic, but 12 takes the cake for gameplay

[Mercen-X]

VI vs VII rises again.
"VII is some a PWN game it sold thousands of millions of copies worldwide and kicked indiscriminate butt!"
"VI is awsomner despite teh fact it was released on the SNES! I can't believe how much VII was anticipated for a PS release and was such a let down considering the graphics of other games, rant, blah, etc."

Wow.

[Wolf Kanno]

Do not turn this into a VI vs. VII debate...^^

For the topic at hand, yes I noticed the similarity between the two, it wasn't hard to imagine since it was mostly the same core team that did both with two omissions (Sakaguchi and Nojima).

To me, X was a streamlined version of the PS1 generation, sucking away that bothersome "exploration" crap the kids didn't talk much about in those days (mostly cause we expect it) and while X offers many mini-games on the way to do to break up the monotony, I never found any of them engaging and most of them felt really out of place "catch... butterflies? While Sin is destroying the land?". Yet, if XIII taught me anything, its that something is better than nothing.

My main issues with X was that in comparison to the the rest of the series and the impact they did for their time, I always felt X was simply mediocre. It really didn't do anything novel or interesting. Its biggest impact was making other designers realize that it was okay to create linear world design as long as you had lots and lots of cutscenes to keep the player entertained and so part of me wants to kinda blame X for the fall of the JRPG in the last generation of gaming cause I always felt X's game format was backtracking when compared to the superior FFIX that expanded exploration and really took some creative steps with overworld map designs and gameplay.

X failed for me cause it didn't wow me, it felt like several of the more generic rpgs I was playing on the PS1 in anticipation for the PS2 era.

Despite this, X is the FF equivalent of Oblivion when compared to XIII which took X's suffocating design and format and streamlined it even further. Fans have joked (well some have others probably meant it) that FF was getting to a point where it was going to be less of a game and more of a movie and that's really what I felt XIII strived for and why I felt it failed as a game cause for me there was little game to speak of and what was there was not satisfactory. I feel XIII has made me appreciate X more but I still have ill feelings toward X cause I felt X could have been great if it wasn't so obsessed with its story, and actually gave the player more elbow room to create their own pace rather than let the narrative create the pace for you.

Both games had linear map design but at least X had a few diversions on the way. Though I give XIII props on making most of the locales more interesting to look at cause personally I never liked the design of several of the "maps" in X and it was places like the Mihen Highroad and Mushroom Rock that made me realize the linear design of the world.

Both games tout a system they feel is highly strategic for the player to interact with. Yet X is crippled cause its system is built around end game content and the main quest is nerfed to all hell so the player doesn't miss the story cause that's all they really care about... right? XIII's feels fun in the beginning but after awhile you just realize you are basically do the equivalent of grinding in XII for a friend where you battle enemies but are forced to stick to another person's Gambit set-up you are not allowed to touch lest he denies you the pizza he promised. So basically by the end you are just switching back and forth from different A.I. scripts and occasionally watching the health to know when to switch to another. The game also rewards you for fighting quickly so even the challenging optional fights feel more like normal encounters when done right. On the one hand, I commend XIII for at least trying to make amend for where X faltered by not making the complex and wonderful nuance elements of the combat system exist purely for the optional content that opens up at the 11th hour of the game and makes the rest of the games combat feel like a chore but I also wish to reprimand XIII for creating the scenario that mostly bitched and moaned about with XII which was that it was more like babysitting an A.I. At least when you took control of the characters in XII you actually had more options of what to do, at least you had the ability to actually control your whole party and if you used the A.I. it actually was based on what you felt was priority.

Its a real shame for both titles cause I had high hopes for both of their combat systems but at least with X, I got the better version of it from Persona 3 who you know, actually made it worth your while to use cause it actually had the balls to be hard and force the player to think strategically instead of making the majority of the games difficulty trying to figure out how to win a battle without losing MP or HP which frankly was never really hard in the first place. :roll2

XIII on the other hand borrowed from Xenosaga II's system and I'm just starting to think I really don't care for this gameplay format cause it just seems like no one knows how to use it properly.

Both games, for me at least, had sub-par and downright terrible casts in which both titles had at least one character with good character growth who sadly is also the most obnoxious cast member (Hope and Wakka) the rest feel like variations of people we've seen before and sadly the most interesting characters usually get less screen time than the more bland cast members. Both also featured sets of villains who were mostly forgettable.

Oddly enough, I wish both titles could have taken a lesson from the other in this regard as I felt XIII actually had a few villains that would have worked well for the story if they were used better. Whereas I felt X would have been a better game if they had dropped Seymour and the cliched tale of a corrupted church in favor of focusing more on Sin and would have allowed them to cut out down some of the slower parts of the story. Go figure.

Most of what bugged me about each story was just how predictable the plots were. I was rarely surprised by anything that happened in the stories and what few caught me off guard usually felt entirely out of place for the story imho. In X's defense, I felt its problem was simply not just that the story was predictable but it was poorly paced for me, I know the story, I know how this will most likely end so let's get on with it. Yet, at least its still and interesting story. I just hated how it was told cause it was long winded for my taste.

XIII is not only terribly long winded but constantly settled for the lowest common denominator. At several times, the story could have gone down a more meaningful path and actually force the player to look at the scenario beyond what was going on but instead it dropped such concepts like a stone and moved on. It wouldn't have been so frustrating if the game didn't keep teasing the player with such nonsense.

In reality, XIII has two plots, the first half is built up of the character driven story of watching the party go through the five stages of grief and then theirs the "fantastic and epic" tale of watching your party being taunted by a douche bag villain who wants them to fight and kill him even though that is what they were going to do anyway. The first half is not as well done as I would like and I felt the writers went overboard on the angst but it was smurfing brilliant compared to the second half of the game whose story just openly falters at every turn. This is the main problem with XIII for me, what parts of it are good are not actually good in themselves, they are just good in comparison to the obvious crap that is the rest of the content, its like being asked to study a pile of crap and asked to pick out the best part. Sure you definetly picked the best part but it doesn't really change the fact it is still crap.

X is bad cause it never truly achieved the greatness it could have been, the pieces are all there but it always stops short of it. Its just feels less impressive compared to the what the rest of the series did but more importantly, it feels less impressive compared to other titles in the genre itself. Suikoden III was released around the same time as FFX and it is an infinitely better game that features a more unconventional and interesting cast, a battle system based on utilizing the best party, and a narrative story that tells the tale of a conflict from three (technically five) perspectives and overall makes the player see that you cannot simply take things for face value. X is not a bad game, it just settled for mediocrity.

XIII doesn't have the same issue, its just a badly designed game that takes the most aggravating parts of X (not living up to its potential) and takes it further than the other would dare to go. The difference between both is that I feel we can debate the merits of X (and I'm sure many of you will) but I don't feel the same for XIII. You can state problems with XIII's writing and system and I feel apologists will be hard pressed to come up with any convincing answer as to why it was a good thing. The faults in the writing are far more glaring and obvious. The only way to appreciate XIII is to not look at it as a wonderful narrative with exciting gameplay but rather as just a nice diversion to keep you busy while you wait for something more substantial to come out and wrap your brain around.

For the ADD crowd: X is mediocre but not bad, XIII is just plain bad.

[Elskidor]

I never thought of X as all that great, and never realized it was held so high amongst fans until joining this board. Liked it alright at the time of release but, as stated above, I though it was just mediocre with a very annoying main character. Really enjoy the sphere grid! I played XII about a year after it's release and after hearing terrible things about it, yet I think it's an awesome game and it kept me so much more interested than X. Guess that's a good thing about Final Fantasy games....they have something for everyone. FF2 might be my least liked of the main series, but I still like it for what it is, and there is always something good about all of them.

[sir helix]

i miss having a million summons to choose from and only using four> oh woops lost my train for a second, XIII is great cause like VII, II, VI it doesnt really have a set beginning it throws you into the middle of a huge event, we cant exactly choose to begin life, it friggen happens ((el oh el)), XIII tosses the player onto the middle of a WAR, and plays it out very well, i hated the non linear deal but you cant have your cake and eat it to i suppose.

XIII has way more strategy than any other fantasy cause you cant run away, when an enemy attacks either you tuff it out or you die, thats all she friggen wrote.

Tidus= "live and let live"

[not any more]

[Crop]

XIII has way more strategy than any other fantasy


What are you talking about? I literally only had to tap 'X' through most of the game.

[Elly]

don't know what you're talking bout there Crop, i personaly agree with Helix... before XIII i hardly ever saw a "game over" screen, i could just steamroll over anything with enough grinding done, but XIII puts an end to power leveling... i found myself having to switch paradigms frequently in order to survive many fights, especialy bosses, and if my paradigms weren't set up right it was all over, i found myself having to redo several boss fights simply because my paradigm setups weren't cutting it...

[BG-57]

Fortunately most of the regular bosses are fairly easy to figure out what paradigms and abilities work best.

The optional missions are a whole other ball of wax, with several where I just gave up and looked up strategies online. Even them, several involve retrying over and over again.

[Hollycat]

I think we all agree, in linearness, X was most and 12 was least. Also 12 was best. but of all the Squenix games, BBS has the best gameplay, but a lame story arch and ending and is too restricted. the ultimate game would be one with the single player gameplay of BBS, the wideness of choice and customization of 12, the job classes of 5, and the different races of Tactics advance, like maybe a ff game where you could choose and design a race for your character, change its class, use the gameplay of bbs, and have the huge amount of enemies and equipment of 12. THAT WOULD BE BEAST

[Lamia]

Wow. This thread has been resurrected.

About the weapon upgrading system in FFXIII:

Yes, a scavenger hunt was required for X's weapon upgrading system. But Final Fantasy XIII is about money, that is, it isn't easy to attain a lot of it in the game, and screwing up the upgrading process can end up in a huge waste of gil.

You just have to be careful and guess correctly on how many mechanical parts you need to spend in order to get to the desired level or it is back to adding organic components to get back up to 3x again.

Also, to get the most of our your components it is important to sell them, and then use the money to buy more efficient components or risk wasting a lot of resources.

This is all made simple with a guide, but I still was impressed with the system. It was different and not the obvious scavenger hunt already employed in most games and required you to make some in-game economic decisions.

Of course, this is all a matter of opinion and everyone has different opinions on what they like.

As far as every boss having a "trick" to make them infinitey more easier... I would be lying to myself if I thought that this wasn't the case in other FF games as well.

In retrospect, I now understand why XIII got the reaction that it did. It is true that Final Fantasy X was more of a complete package. Final Fantasy XIII' is essentially good in what fundamentally makes an FF game... at least, what appears on the surface to make an FF game: which is story, characters, and battle system. But the world lacked the detail that mini-games, side quests, and NPCs brought to the games before it.

I understand that people would have a hard time feeling immersed into the world of FFXIII. That being said, I still appreciate FFXIII for what it is and what it does well.

[Bolivar]

This thread should've been XIII, X, and XII because all 3 of them seem to be really relevant to eachother's place in the series.

I would step in for XII and say it had a ton more strategy than XIII. It essentially had the paradigm system, there's archetypes to build, but there's a level beyond that where you script their entire protocol. It may have been more about building an awesome party than utilizing different strengths in different combinations, but I felt for a game where you can just sit back and watch your characters fight, it had arguably more strategy than any FF game before it.

[Mercen-X]

X is crippled 'cause its system is built around end game contentEnd game content... I'm not sure what you're talking about.

[Wolf Kanno]

Mostly the monster arena since its pretty much impossible to do all of it til you get to the games end. As well as the Omega Ruins but honestly all you really need are the celestial weapons if you want to get through there.

[Mercen-X]

X faltered by making the "complex and wonderful nuance" elements of the combat system exist purely for the optional content that opens up at the 11th hour of the game and makes the rest of the games combat feel like a chore.Okay, now about this statement. I had to sell my copy of X so I'm probably missing something really obvious here. But what "complex and wonderful nuances" exist? You said they exist pretty much just for the Arena and Omega Ruins (that part I remember... barely), but what part of the combat system was necessary for these things?

[Wolf Kanno]

Knowing who attacks when just makes battle nothing more than a game of choosing which enemies to kill first. Its rare to get nailed by monsters that are weak to a particular parties attack, usually its big enemies no one in your party can't one hit kill. The only time you really used the system to plan ahead. and use real skills beyond attack to pull a victory, were in a few boss battles or if you chose to not bother using the summons. The thing is, the system just allowed the player to waltz through combat and frankly I felt it made it more of a chore cause I had to be bothered to switch out party members where in earlier games if I was this powerful, I could probably just mash X while reading a book.

The only time the CTB system really shined was when your party couldn't waltz through it and for the most part, that's exclusive to the monster arena and a very few boss fights. I found this annoying, cause the arena doesn't even open up until 30 hours into the game, and in the end, it doesn't net you anything worthwhile. Its built to feed on itself. You fight strong monsters and get items to make you stronger, so you can fight tougher monsters in the arena. This sounds fine and dandy, but to even be able to stand a chance in the arena, you have to be at least strong enough to beat the game already, so its just getting itself off at this point. :roll2

[Hollycat]

currently heres how I see FF on a scale where 1 is the most:

Linear:
1. X 2. XIII 3. IX 4. VIII 5. IV 6. all the other ones I've played, possibly not including V are pretty much do what you want, especially X-2 and XII
Gameplay quality in battle
1. XII 1.5. XIII 2. X 3. all the other ones except 1+2 4. 2+1

Sidequests: 6,12,10,10-2,7, and 9 have a bunch of sidequests, 5 has like 2, 8 has a few really long ones, 4 has maybe 2, 1 and 2 have none.

Really all good games, but....

[Crop]

don't know what you're talking bout there Crop, i personaly agree with Helix... before XIII i hardly ever saw a "game over" screen, i could just steamroll over anything with enough grinding done, but XIII puts an end to power leveling... i found myself having to switch paradigms frequently in order to survive many fights, especialy bosses, and if my paradigms weren't set up right it was all over, i found myself having to redo several boss fights simply because my paradigm setups weren't cutting it...

Well of course I had to change my paradigms but that hardly counts. In every single FF game you've had to set up at least something.
In VII you had to organize materia, in VIII you had to junction your magic, X you switched characters and chose your path on the sphere grid (a sight better than the straight line of the Crysterium), XII had gambits.

The paradigm took about 2 minutes to set up every chapter, and a split second to swtich to in battle. Even then I very very rarely used something other than attack to get through the game, only ever really coming unstuck at a couple of bosses.

[Wolf Kanno]

I'm with Crop, I never found shifting Paradigms to be very strategic. Especially when you get your full party. You basically have two paradigms: Offense and healing/buffing. That's all you really need.

The only battles that are hard in this game were ones that require you to kill the enemy quickly cause they love exploiting that "kill the leader to get a game over" ploy. If Barthandelus didn't have Doom, I would have beaten him the very first time cause that was the only move I couldn't get around, until I finally upgraded my weapons, it didn't require a new strategy. :roll2