What defines 'real music'

[KentaRawr!]

I have a few friends who think that my taste in music isn't 'real' because it's mostly video game songs, covers to video game songs, or a television show soundtrack. Personally, I don't think that whether music is real or not depends on where it was used in the end. But I've seen a lot of people say that songs aren't 'real music', and it seems to me it's just because it doesn't fit their style. So, what do you think truly defines 'real music'?

[Moon Rabbits]

Google (http://www.google.ca)
"define: music"


# an artistic form of auditory communication incorporating instrumental or vocal tones in a structured and continuous manner
# any agreeable (pleasing and harmonious) sounds; "he fell asleep to the music of the wind chimes"
# musical activity (singing or whistling etc.); "his music was his central interest"
# (music) the sounds produced by singers or musical instruments (or reproductions of such sounds)
# punishment for one's actions; "you have to face the music"; "take your medicine"

[The Man]

It incorporates the use of musical instruments of some fashion. Or it could be simply recordings of the human voice used in tonal manners. It has to have melody; that's the only thing I care about. Notably, the human voice doesn't have to be the primary source of the melody when it appears - if it did, the hip-hop and black metal I listen to would not qualify as music.

[Madame Adequate]

What the fuck? It's 'real music' if it sounds like goddamn music. Next time someone says that, punch them in the kidney and tell them "don't cry, that wasn't a real punch".

[NeoCracker]

Anything that doesn't offend me due to it's shear stupidity is real music.

[BarelySeeAtAll]

Personally they may have been saying it because the music you're listening to belongs from something fictional?

..mind you most songs that are written are fictional...


...:confused: oh me oh my I know I had a point there somewhere but it's "late".

[Yeargdribble]

# any agreeable (pleasing and harmonious) sounds;
Doesn't have to be agreeable or pleasing or harmonious.


Or it could be simply recordings of the human voice used in tonal manners.

There's plenty of music that's perfectly good but not tonal at all.


It has to have melody;

Plenty of famous composers don't use melody... from Bach to Philip Glass.


I find almost any definition of music too constrained. You could say it has to be pleasing. Night of the Electric Insects (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLU3l-XNDlw) certainly isn't to most. But it's evocative. Does music have be evocative. Not really. There's plenty of music that is supposed to be incidental and purposely non-evocative.

Tonal? Schoenberg's Theme and Variations Op. 43a (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh9VC08ZxnM) is a fantastic, beautiful and even pleasing piece that's completely atonal.


By most trained musician's standard video game music rises far above that of any pop music. I think when people say that they basically mean "what everyone else listens to." This isn't to put down pop. Justin Bieber's stuff is catchy as as hell and generally only uses four chords (THE four chords).

There are musics that I find displeasing, but they are still music.


EDIT: The closest all inclusive definition I could come up with is "organized sound." That's bearing in mind aleatoric music which is inherently non-organized, but still organized to be so. Even 4'33" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4%E2%80%B233%E2%80%B3) fits that definition if you understand what Cage was on about.

[The Man]

By "melody" I mean that it has to consist of clearly deliberately arranged tones. By conventional definitions, it's true that a lot of what Bach and Glass do isn't melodic, and a lot of what I listen to is even less "melodic" than they are. I specifically referred to "the human voice in tonal manners" to differentiate a cappella music from spoken-word performances, but my diction probably wasn't terribly precise.

Basically, what you said about "organised sound" is about right.

[The Space Pope]

What defines 'real music'
Whatever is currently the most profitable.

[fire_of_avalon]

What the smurf? It's 'real music' if it sounds like goddamn music. Next time someone says that, punch them in the kidney and tell them "don't cry, that wasn't a real punch".
:<3:
Everyone has different tastes. I've known a lot of music elitists in my time. I don't know why people get sticks up their butts so easily about music. Tell you're friends they're lame.

[rubah]

I'd say that it has to be some sensation related to the aural sense. That way, even 4:33 is included (negative space)

if it's not aural, then you're getting into synesthesiac territory

[Yeargdribble]

<span style="font: 13px Candara, Skia, Corbel, 'Trebuchet MS', Georgia, Geneva, Helvetica, Lucida, 'Lucida Grande', Arial, sans-serif; color: #38bcee;">By "melody" I mean that it has to consist of clearly deliberately arranged tones. By conventional definitions, it's true that a lot of what Bach and Glass do isn't melodic, and a lot of what I listen to is even less "melodic" than they are.

You can have purely rhythmic music devoid of melody or aleatoric music which defeats melody. :D



<span style="font: 13px Candara, Skia, Corbel, 'Trebuchet MS', Georgia, Geneva, Helvetica, Lucida, 'Lucida Grande', Arial, sans-serif; color: #38bcee;">I specifically referred to "the human voice in tonal manners" to differentiate <i>a cappella</i> music from spoken-word performances, but my diction probably wasn't terribly precise.

Does Sprechstimme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprechgesang) still count as music. Can beat poetry be considered a musical form?

NOTE: At this point I'm just busting your balls for the fun of it.


I'd say that it has to be some sensation related to the aural sense. That way, even 4:33 is included (negative space)

Not sure I'm clear on what you're saying. Not all things aural are music unless you're taking Cage's thoughts to the utmost end.



if it's not aural, then you're getting into synesthesiac territory

Keep in mind that the profoundly deaf can enjoy music also, though not aurally. I do get what you're saying though. That's why I go with the "sound" thing because sound can be experienced more widely than just saying it has to be aural.

I'm just playing devil's advocate to everything.

[rubah]

I don't know what Cage has said, but I know the first summer after I joined band, I was listening to the insects outside my window and equating them to various instruments :p

[Shiny]

# punishment for one's actions; "you have to face the music"; "take your medicine"


That's a good definition of Miley Cyrus' music.

[Christmas]

As long as you like it and that's more than enough I think. :bigsmile:

[Yeargdribble]

The only time I judge someone for their choice in music is when I know that it has nothing to do with how much they actually like it, but rather that the music they listen to is part of the image they want to reflect.

Like what you like, but like it because you like it... not because it's cool to do so.

Whatever the OP listens to is more "real music" than the packaged and labeled brand crap that other people are calling "real music" for the sake of being cool.

It's "real" because it's popular. The more popular it gets the more manufactured it becomes.

[Hambone]

<s>I would say that REAL music belongs to Ms. Spears, amirite?</s>

I believe that there is no such thing as real music. If "real" music existed, wouldn't there need to exist a "fake" music? Regardless, it's subjective.

I've been a musician for almost six years now (and might I add, there is nothing I find more rewarding). When I first started out, I became heavily immersed in the world of Baroque, Classical, and Romantic music, and was quick to deride anything that I wasn't used to hearing or playing (even Early Modern music, quite ironically, because I just got a One [which is the highest score one can achieve] at a state Solo & Ensemble competition and I was playing an Early Modern piece), I was quick to insult the metal that my brother plays and listens to, and in effect I severely limited myself to the diversity that exists within all of music. Within this time I've grown and, while there is music that I certainly don't see what people find so alluring in it, I don't patronize it. Instead I've learned to let people like what they like, their "real" music.

[Fynn]

My twelve years of musical education, as well as that of my girlfriend (who is studying musicology at the moment) tell me that the definition of "music" differs greatly between various cultures. Heck, some peoples don't even have a word for it! But on topic, it's true that there's music and there's music. I have also been criticised for listening moslty to vgm soundtracks, but it came from my girlfriend. I understand where she's coming from - she's basically against popular music as a whole, since she finds value only in artistic music. While videogame music is miles better than the pop stuff most people consider "real" music, it still cannot be classified as "high" music. It's good if it's not the only thing you listen to. I took her advice and listened to some 20th century Polish artistic music. Some dodecaphonic and aleatoric pieces are still a bit hard to swallow (though some sound awesome), there are many beautiful pieces (I advise you guys to look for Henryk Górecki's symphony of sorrowful songs, or whatever it's called in English).

I see that the main difference between contemporary artistic and popular music (which is the only distinction that I consider close to the "real" and "fake" stuff) is that the latter is meant to sound nice and be catchy, the former usually aims at something more, something higher. Consequently, it often requires some background reading...

[Mirage]

Your friends are a bunch of hipster faggots. Ditch them.

[Markus. D]

Music is a huge multitude of things.

Music is anything and everything that has been composed and merged, Akira Yamaoka has proved that.

[sir helix]

REAL music is anything that is not modern rap ( oh im sorry hipity hopity) or modern country (of i appologise again, it called i have to sing like everybody else so the listoners cant tewll the difference).

And would someone please put those god forsakken micky mouse abortions out of our misery befor they can cause my children any more damage then what they already have. (refering to cyrus, johnas brothers,etc, etc) that go through disney and dont make a clean enough break.

hell, justin temberlake and britney spears did it, justin now is extremly popular, and britney is wel.....................lets just leave it at that.

GO t.A.T.u, Rammstein, nightwish, MCR, and all you acid rockers who think your fruit (that wasnt a gay joke, there was realy a guy who dropped acid, though he was an orange and wouldnt let anyone touch cus he ws afraid his juice would run out........)

[Iceglow]

Generally speaking game soundtracks are still music however the question comes down to not what is real music but what is good music. In your friends opinion you just have crap taste is what they mean by saying you don't listen to real music.

[Mo-Nercy]

Whatever the OP listens to is more "real music" than the packaged and labeled brand crap that other people are calling "real music" for the sake of being cool.
Agreed. I've had people criticise my taste of "car music". I don't know what it is about people having to make sure whatever comes out of their car speakers is 'cool', but it's ridiculous. I don't give a smurf if others can hear that I prefer to listen to slow songs and Asian songs.

[Rad Bromance]

If it produces an audible rhythm, it's music.

[KentaRawr!]

REAL music is anything that is not modern rap ( oh im sorry hipity hopity) or modern country (of i appologise again, it called i have to sing like everybody else so the listoners cant tewll the difference).

And would someone please put those god forsakken micky mouse abortions out of our misery befor they can cause my children any more damage then what they already have. (refering to cyrus, johnas brothers,etc, etc) that go through disney and dont make a clean enough break.

hell, justin temberlake and britney spears did it, justin now is extremly popular, and britney is wel.....................lets just leave it at that.

GO t.A.T.u, Rammstein, nightwish, MCR, and all you acid rockers who think your fruit (that wasnt a gay joke, there was realy a guy who dropped acid, though he was an orange and wouldnt let anyone touch cus he ws afraid his juice would run out........)

This is what I was describing when I said a lot of people say that music isn't real because it doesn't fit their style, by the way. :p

[Mirage]

REAL music is anything that is not modern rap ( oh im sorry hipity hopity) or modern country (of i appologise again, it called i have to sing like everybody else so the listoners cant tewll the difference).

You're no better than all the other musical "elititst". Get outta here.

[SephirothSylverstream]

real music has a story behind what s being sung about such as Buck Tick's song Romance

[Madame Adequate]

real music has a story behind what s being sung about such as Buck Tick's song Romance

So it's not music if there are no lyrics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMKTaLaYBB8)?

[Hythloday]

Honestly, I get a little frustrated when people play vgm or soundtracks when I'm in their car as well.

I wouldn't say it's not music but it's not music you've truly sought out. It's music you've kinda been weened on. Maybe I am an elitist, but when someone is playing music for me I want to hear something that makes me say "Oh, this is cool, who is it?".

I don't want to hear the House theme song (no offense, Massive Attack). Or FMA's opening track (no offense, j-rock fans). Why? Because idk, there's a whole WORLD of underexposed, talented, and figuratively starving (maybe literally?) artists you could be listening to. I mean like, you like what you like, that's great that you have things I know on your iPod from games I've played... but a lot of those songs don't even make sense out of context. One Winged Angel does not get me hyped to go to the grocery store, nor does it truly speak anything about who you are and what your interests are except maybe that you really like FFVII.

Don't get me wrong, I will never tell someone to turn something off or that it isn't music. But yeah, I mean, I will be disappointed. And I find it to be a tragedy because when you find a song that really connects with you, not just one that's grown on you because it's a theme song or part of something you already liked, it's true insight to who you are. I can hear a song I liked 3 years ago and say to myself "that song said where I was at during that point in my life".

Go on MySpace, Last.fm, Pandora, hypem.com, music blogs, your friend's last.fm, go somewhere and just listen to some stuff you've never heard. I mean, really search for hours until you find something that speaks to you, and when you do you'll know what they meant by "music". I really think they meant music in the sense that you know it by something other than movies, shows, or videogames.

[The Man]

Blue Lines, man. I haven't heard another trip-hop album that grabbed me the way that record did.

[Yeargdribble]

@Hythloday

I guess I need to stop listening to anything written more than a few months ago. Beethoven is crap. Stravinsky was a hack. I wasn't even alive when that stuff was written, so how could it ever "speak to me" and remind me "where I was in my life" when I was listening to it.

There's something hipsterish in your little diatribe. It sounds like nobody else really experiences music but you because you've "sought it out" and are on some great plane of existence being one with the music you've found that encompasses your personhood. I call BS.

I didn't have to seek out much of the music that touches me. First time I heard the Liebestod from Wagner's Tristan and Isolde... was in a music history class. I cried. I cry most times I listen to it. I'm also touched by plenty of more recent music. There's music that resonates with me because I feel the same things the lyrics are describing. There's music that reminds me of a particular time in my life as well.

For many people video game sounds tracks and TV theme songs do speak about where they were and what was going on at a particular time in their lives.


To make a sh**ty analogy. Is love more awesome when you seek it out or when it sneaks up on you? It seems that generally the best relationship happen when you're not particularly looking.

Here's something completely relevant. I discovered Tim Minchin by accident and love his music. I suppose to some it's not real music because it has humor in it... but I love. And this song is a good example of my analogy.

YouTube - You Grew On Me by Tim Minchin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frNpdG4F9mw)

[Hythloday]

@Hythloday

I guess I need to stop listening to anything written more than a few months ago. Beethoven is crap. Stravinsky was a hack. I wasn't even alive when that stuff was written, so how could it ever "speak to me" and remind me "where I was in my life" when I was listening to it. It doesn't matter when it was written.

There's something hipsterish in your little diatribe. It sounds like nobody else really experiences music but you because you've "sought it out" and are on some great plane of existence being one with the music you've found that encompasses your personhood. I call BS.

I didn't have to seek out much of the music that touches me. First time I heard the Liebestod from Wagner's Tristan and Isolde... was in a music history class. I cried. I cry most times I listen to it. I'm also touched by plenty of more recent music. There's music that resonates with me because I feel the same things the lyrics are describing. There's music that reminds me of a particular time in my life as well.

For many people video game sounds tracks and TV theme songs do speak about where they were and what was going on at a particular time in their lives.


To make a sh**ty analogy. Is love more awesome when you seek it out or when it sneaks up on you? It seems that generally the best relationship happen when you're not particularly looking.

Here's something completely relevant. I discovered Tim Minchin by accident and love his music. I suppose to some it's not real music because it has humor in it... but I love. And this song is a good example of my analogy.

YouTube - You Grew On Me by Tim Minchin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frNpdG4F9mw)


Why does it have to be written recently? Music is about emotion, idc who you are or what you say. If you can't sense an emotion Beethoven was trying to convey, you aren't picking up what he was putting down.

I'm not trying to act superior to anyone. I liked all the songs I mentioned. But at the same time, I've known people who have only had that on their iPods, and insisted the same songs everyones heard over and over again be played over and over again. It's simply because a lot of the time, it's all they've known because they don't seek out music. It kind of comes to them. Which is fine, you hear a song you like on a commercial, game, show, or movie and if you like play it all you want... but can you see where others would get frustrated with everyone playing the same song over and over.

If you don't know someone who bugs you because they play the same :bou::bou::bou::bou: from a movie, videogame, show, or commercial you probably are that person. And, as a common courtesy I'd just like to say, I enjoyed it the first 500 times I watched the movie, played the game, saw the opening sequence to the show, or was forced to sit through in the commercial.

I'm not on some higher smurfing level, I just know when people are just being too lazy to find something actually interesting.

[Shiny]

The people who say real music is anything they like and what isn't is what they don't like are ignorant.

[Mo-Nercy]

I'm not on some higher smurfing level, I just know when people are just being too lazy to find something actually interesting.
It mightn't always be the case that people are too lazy to find the 'interesting' music that you preach is better than music from video games, movies or TV. You speak as if everyone loves music, but just isn't as good as you at finding it. I honestly am not that into music. I just like to have something to listen to when I'm walking or driving. I don't even like half the songs on my player and I usually listen to radio show podcasts anyway, so if you were ever a passenger in my car and asked me to pop in some tunes, I wouldn't have a whole lot to show you. I certainly don't have any songs that I feel "connect with me".. at least not for any longer than a couple of days.

[The Man]

<span style="font: 13px Candara, Skia, Corbel, 'Trebuchet MS', Georgia, Geneva, Helvetica, Lucida, 'Lucida Grande', Arial, sans-serif; color: #38bcee;"
The people who say real music is anything they like and what isn't is what they don't like are ignorant.

This. This. This. Also, this.</span>

[KentaRawr!]

Go on MySpace, Last.fm, Pandora, hypem.com, music blogs, your friend's last.fm, go somewhere and just listen to some stuff you've never heard. I mean, really search for hours until you find something that speaks to you, and when you do you'll know what they meant by "music". I really think they meant music in the sense that you know it by something other than movies, shows, or videogames.

I've done this quite a bit, actually, but in the form of youtube browsing. I found out about Richard Galliano this way. :p Also, I even listen to music from video games I've never played, so it's not that I really like the video games, I just find myself enjoying their soundtracks.

[Rad Bromance]

The people who say real music is anything they like and what isn't is what they don't like are ignorant.
Anyone who actually uses the term "REAL music" is silly. :)

[jenovajunkie]

@Hythloday
Beethoven is crap.

My god...... YOU ARE CRAP!
Music is defined by the listener not by anyone else. There is no term "real music". I hate to intrude but anyone and everyone has their own definition for music. Islamic people have what we (western cultures) would call music, but they do not. It's called " the call of prayer" and to them it's not a form of music. Before you go make judgements like "Beethoven is crap" and something isn't real music, think about think bout this: If it's not real music, why do people listen to it? Why do people make it? How are they enjoying it?

Just because you think one way, doesn't mean that's the only way.
Music is whatever you receive as music. Real music is what you perceive it as.

................ psychology is a science!

[The Man]

psst, Yeargdribble was being sarcastic about the bit you quoted to make a point.

[Mr. Graves]

As The Man (Aaron) said in a previous post, anything with a melody can be 'music'. Other than that, it comes down to a matter of opinion, really.

I've really come to love anything metal (death, industrial, etc.) in the last few years. In my opinion, anything that doesn't come close to rocking hard is mellow, and nothing I would listen to regularly. Of course, people are as varied in tastes of music as they are varied in personalities. Each person should like what they like.

Anyone who thinks someone else is inferior due to something like musical tastes is just shallow, and not worth hanging out with. Musical taste should be last thing that matters when it comes to who you hang out with, who you become friends with, etc. Seriously, what does it matter, anyway.

[nik0tine]

Plenty of famous composers don't use melody... from Bach to Philip Glass.Name one Bach piece that doesn't make use of melody. Hell, name one Bach piece whose primary focus isn't melody.

[jenovajunkie]

Oh my apologies for calling you crap then.