Final Fantasy VIII vs. Final Fantasy X-2

[Forsaken Lover]

Some would say it's like arguing which is better, being punched in the nuts or being kicked in the nuts.

With that eloquent analogy behind us, I'm just curious for opinions here. These are probably my least favorite FF games for various reasons. So I'm wondering which you all like more and why.

I'll make a quick comparison.

Battle System

X-2 by miles. The Junction system is well known for its crappiness. There is absolutely no identity to your characters beyond their limit breaks. What does it matter if you switch out Zell for Irvine? Just equip what junction you had on Zell to irvine and presto.

X-2's Job System was a lot of fun however. There were a variety of classes that you could apply to any situation or you could be a bit more tactical and switch it up for different fights. Regardless, fights were fast-paced and awesome. I liked how magic casting finally took time as in you could physically attack someone while they prepared a spell. That's how it's supposed to work....

Story

Ooh boy. Not exactly comparing giants of storytelling here are we. Still, I'll give X-2 the nod for its non-linearity. If you want the story, you have to go out and find it out. FFVIII just kind of shovels plot in your face and down your throat.
"We all grew up together!"

Characters

Well I liked Yuna, hated (X-2) Rikku and Paine was okay.

I hated Rinoa, loved Selphie and was indifferent to the rest.

For antagonists...oh yeah Ultimecia is so kewl. What with her absolute lack of motivation beyond what fans speculate about.
Seifer was pretty awesome though.

Shuyin was clearly the best antagonist of the three though. Has some actual backstory and sympathetic motivation.


Music

Unquestionably goes to VIII. I like X-2's soundtrack well enough but it's really not on par with the music of the other FFs.

And that's my two cents. Your turn.

[charliepanayi]

One is the best game in the series, the other is definitely not and is like an even poorer version of Charlie's Angels.

[Shiny]

Although FFVIII is certaintly not one of my favorite FF's I will say that story, music, and character wise, it was far better than FFX-2. However, I enjoyed FFX-2's battle system over the annoying monsters-level-up-as-you-level-up system of FFVIII. I like to level grind. :shiny:

[Mo-Nercy]

I like 'em both. FFVIII is actually my favourite in the series. I'm aware of the weaknesses in the story and the lacklustre development of some of the characters, but the battle system is right up my alley. The Junction System is great in my books. I like that you have so many different options available to you when it comes to sourcing magic (drawing from monsters, using draw points, refining items from cards - which you can get from carding monsters or playing Triple Triad - or mugging monsters). It's better than, say, buying a piece of materia, equipping it and that's it. I suppose that depends on how tolerating you are towards drawing magic and playing Triple Triad, but I didn't mind that aspect of the game at all. In fact, I quite enjoy Triple Triad.

I like FFX-2 for similar reasons. The battle system is fantastic. I didn't mind the girly aspects of the game either. It's lighthearted and fun which makes for a nice change up from the typical FF.

To summarise my thoughts, FFVIII - probably deserves the bad rap it gets, but it happens to be my cup of tea. FFX-2 - underrated and is actually a pretty good game.

[VeloZer0]

Sounds interesting but I would actually have to get through X-2 to qualify for this discussion :yuck:

[BarelySeeAtAll]

Bought X-2 ages ago, still not gotten round to playing it much. However, I have played as much as the intro's (past all the "this means this and that means that, you're too stupid to already know" crap) to both, have to admit that (creepily) X-2 was more appealing. I hate this fact, because the game makes me feel like too much of a girl >_<

[PeneloRatsbane]

VIII is superior, not my favourite but still very good

[Saber]

One is the best game in the series, the other is definitely not and is like an even poorer version of Charlie's Angels.

Best first post ever!

____

Anyways I like them both but I can sit through VIII a lot longer then I can with X-2. I'm making a list,

Characters - Okay well we got 6 to 3 here. That's just main characters at end game. VIII had Kiros, Ward, Laguna, Seifer, and Edea playable too. So its 11 to 3. Now about the design of the characters. FFVIII had a lot of different looks, to me it seemed a lot of the characters were VERY different. As in VIII not everyone fought with the same weapons. They had different color clothes and ranged from being in the cold to casural. Sure the jacket Squalls wearing could be hot in the sun for a while but it dosen't compare to Rikku's barely dressed outfit in Mt. Gagazat.

X-2 had a triad of very upbeat funny and powerfuly different characters. You got yuna, which is ex-summoner turned pop star. Rikku which is not to be confused with Kingdom Hearts Riku, that is a follower of Yuna turned into a sphere hunter. Then Paine, who is a new character, who is a EX-something-or-whatever turned sphere hunter. I have to say the characters were awesome in battle.

Story - Well when I think of X-2 I first remind myself of X. So VIII is a little on edge as it stands alone. With X-2 many people found that skipping the scenes was the only torable way to play the game. The talking YEAH I GET IT, was good. VIII is still classic and it didn't need voice actors, although some would find it hard to know if Squall is thinking or speaking, or something is speaking to him? From my opinion and a lot of my friends VIII had a very amazing storyline. I'm sure a lot of people would say VIII's > X-2's.

Games - I won't ever forget triple triad and how to play it. I first played FF8 with 10 of my friends. When we wern't all together, me and my other final fantasy die hard fan would play Triple Triad. Its fun, and it allows you to think about moves before it happens. I even joined a site online to play triple triad with other gamers around the world. Now on to X-2, Sphere break was very thought out, but for someone who sucked at math, there was just not enough time to master it. I have my lady luck dress sphere only because someone on this site made a clever caculator. Sadly, sphere break wasn't the only game inside a game to play. Should I even mention what they did to blitz ball? No.

Ability system - No contest here. X-2 beats VIII's all to hell. I love the job system cause it makes you feel like you got the best set up, Warrior, White mage, something else... when everybody else has the same set up. Still its nice to know that you have limits but a lot of options. Also who wants to draw 300-600 magic for all characters?

World - Well this might upset some, although I think I may have already upseted some. I HATE X, XI, XII, XIII :@ I need a world map, I need to feel like I'm traveling the world instead of just seeing a bit of it. Sure the areas are nicer but I noticed a lot more fans back when 9 came out then I do since 10 came out. 10 was a mid way point. It had a badass battle system and a cheap experience in a world. "This is my story... Damn it gameover! You messed my story up" Anyways yeah I like to explore things other then dungeons towns and what ever. I like to have a airship and cruise around thinking of what to do. So in my opinion, VIII is better. Trains and cars are just that cool.

[Christmas]

For music, I kinda like X-2 more than VIII mainly because of "memories of light and wave" and the vocal version of it by the voice actor of Yuna. :bigsmile:

[Forsaken Lover]

That is a beautiful song.
YouTube - 02-Morning Glow-FFX-2 Vocal Collection: Yuna (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBejRS6jwWg)

Also 1000 Words is better than Eyes On Me.
YouTube - 60-1000 Words (English Orchestral Version)-FFX-2 OST (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhhDaQ8QUlk)

[black orb]

>>> FF8 is a real Final Fanasy game, FF X-2 is a joke (a very sexy joke though)..:luca:

[Mirage]

Both are cool games. I like FF8 better, but have played FF10-2 for longer

So forsaken lover, you're hatin on FF8 for not having distinct characters, then praising FFX-2 for not having distinct characters? There only individuality in FFX-2 is the mascot, and the special dresspheres which no one really use.

The junction system is misunderstood, and people hate on it because their own knowledge isn't very great (lol y i got 2 draw 4 hours). Yes, it can be broken easily, but when you know how the other games work, those games are really smurfing easy too. It doesn't matter that you can get 5000 HP on disc 1 in FF8, because you wouldn't have died with just 2000 anyway. It's also no different from all the twinky crap you can do in for example FF5. You can get insane attack power really easily there too, and breeze through the majority of the game. I can't think of any FF game that is difficult in any way past the first playthrough.



Also who wants to draw 300-600 magic for all characters?


Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about.

[VeloZer0]

Yes, it can be broken easily, but when you know how the other games work, those games are really smurfing easy too. It doesn't matter that you can get 5000 HP on disc 1 in FF8, because you wouldn't have died with just 2000 anyway. It's also no different from all the twinky crap you can do in for example FF5. You can get insane attack power really easily there too, and breeze through the majority of the game. I can't think of any FF game that is difficult in any way past the first playthrough.
Though FF8 is probably my least favorite of the series this is something I think should be re-iterated. Just because a system can be broken when you know in depth how it works doesn't make it a bad system. The fact that a single player game can be exploited by players who know what they are doing shouldn't be a major strike against it. (Of course games that players routinely break on their first uninformed playthrough are a different story)

That said, if you have no outside knowledge of the system you are way more likely to spend hours drawing because you don't know the effective ways/places/monsters to do it :D

[silentenigma]

I can appreciate FFVIII when it's viewed as a character study. I cannot appreciate FFX-2 in any way other than the fluid ATB system.

[Wolf Kanno]

I would have to say VIII and by a wide margin actually. Then again, I happened to like VIII.

Story:
VIII
Okay, VIII's plot is bat-:bou::bou::bou::bou:-crazy. It starts off really intriguing with child soldiers qwelling international disputes and a supernatural evil taking over a militant country to start the games equivalent of WWI, not to mention the eerie dream sequences where your party live the lives of enemy soldiers from 20 years ago. Then Disc 2 starts and we're faced with the most BS version of a wall banger (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DarthWiki/WallBanger?from=Main.WallBanger) plot twists and time travel crap that the player loses any sense of being able to take anything storywise serious. At the same time though, the story has this kinda odd train wreck appeal. You know its ridiculous but you just can't turn away and well... its entertaining in a sick way. The only exception to this is Laguna's story which for all intents and purposes is very good if a bit jumbled since you are literally dropping into event in a 20 year period with little context of what's actually going on. Laguna is a fun character and the story of his life and its comical ending are quite enjoyable.

X-2
What plot? Okay seriously now, X-2 is a story mission game and well... SE can't do them well. The main plot is lost in the riff-raff of mini-games and silly concerts. Most of Paine's plot is told in a very loose way and you hardly ever get to know any of the new characters except Shuyin and Lenne without collecting asinine McGuffins from every corner. What main story their is here, basically is built around retconning the only decent thing about FFX which was its tragic (though pretty sappy) ending. Basically the nuances of the plot are wasted on first time players or people who didn't like FFX. The overall "girly feel" of the game (which is over-exaggerated) turns off many of the FFX fans as well, but then again its hard to be justifying this game to a girlfriend if she walks into you playing as a bunch of scantily clad chicks whose every action leads to some cheesecake fan service. You know what its like to have your parents walk in to the room when Paine is transforming into the Lady Luck dressphere? At least my dad bought me some decent porn videos afterwards...

Overall: Porn is good but train-wrecks tend to stay with you longer. Seriously, VIII has a bad plot but its better than a game whose plot only makes up 10% of the content (Assuming you picked up all the Crimson Spheres) with the rest being bubbly filler that will make you throw up. On a more serious note though, VIII has a ton of memorable moments in it like the opening the Assassination attempt on Edea, the battle between the Gardens, and Rinoa and Squall drifting in space. VIII has a lot of memorable moments, whereas I can't really think of anything from X-2 except the cringe worth song scenes and the BS retcon Super Happy ending. VIII wins.

Characters:
FFVIII
Like the story, VIII starts pretty strong and then decides to drop the entire cast except three people after you get halfway through disc 2. Which is a shame cause Zell, Seifer, Quistis, Kiros, Ward, and most of the "villains" could have been really interesting and instead feel like cardboard cutouts. The same can't be said for Squall and Laguna; Squall especially has great character growth and you really get to see the game through his eyes. Yes, he goes all sappy once he decides he loves Rinoa but I have yet to meet a guy who says he's met the love of his life and not do a 180 in personality for it. Even then he still sticks to his calm and snarky self throughout the rest of the game. Even if the cast never does get the growth they deserve, its not like they are bad characters, shirt tempered jock Zell, Bossy but unsure Quistis, Womanizing Irvine, and obnoxious Selphie are still entertaining to watch and their relationship with Squall is what brings out the humor of the game as you watch the party constantly trying to cheer him up while he's only thinking about drowning them in the nearest body of water.

X-2
Let's take Yuna, who already has the personality of cardboard and make her the main character. She constantly talks about finally "growing up" and "living for herself" and no longer letting "other people dictate her life" and then proceeds to spend the rest of the game helping ever human, Ronso, Guado, and rock in Spira that happens to have a sad sob story, so basically her character growth is mostly hypocrisy :roll2. Let's throw in Rikku who is horribly obnoxious and let's fill her up with even more sugar, make her legal, and by being legal, make her dress like a smurfing whore... Then there is Lulu... I mean Paine, who is basically Lulu in all ways except technically being younger and being a warrior instead of a mage. Paine, really doesn't do anything that helps her character not come off as a Lulu rip-off and never really justifies her presence in the story beyond just happening to be connected to the three new guys. Speaking of which, Nooj, is a jerk, the Yevon guy is nice but associated with a bunch of jerks and gets little screen-time, and Bikkal is pretty awesome but gets less screen time than O'aka, the Yevon guy, and Maechen two of which are npcs and have nothing to do with the main plot. Lebalnc and her gang, are just plain pathetic and only help to drive the terrible fan service of the game even more. Shuyin's back-story only allows him to be sympathetic to people who wear their hearts on their sleeves, the rest find him pretty pathetic and mostly at fault for his own problems. Lenne is basically another Yuna which means she might as well be drywall with a wig and skimpy dress cause that's how much personality she has. So seeing as how I hate pretty much everyone in the cast... yeah...

Overall: VIII's cast fails to live up to its potential, but at least they are interesting and entertaining as opposed to X-2's cast which is void of any major character that is likable. When the NPC's of your game are more interesting and likable than the main cast, I feel that's a major problem. VIII wins.

Gameplay:
VIII
So many posts and rants about the Junction system exist that books could probably be written about it if someone was bored enough to collect all of it. If you found the system tedious, then you weren't using it right, if you found it too easy to exploit then you understood it too well and you truly understand the systems real weakness and if you found it both ways,m well this wasn't your game now is it?
I like elements of the system, I like the concept of using magic to buffer abilities and I feel it actually works really well until the game starts introducing the support skills that jack up all your stats into god-mode territory. If you find VIII too easy but don't want to do one of the silly challenges, I simply suggest you ignore any of the stat boosting support abilites, the difference is between doing 2500-3000 damage to doing 9999 when your party looks at a monster funny.

I actually enjoy drawing from enemies cause it actually makes random encounters a bit more important and makes the player actually stop and think for a moment instead of just mashing X while reading a book or surfing the net for CloudXSephiroth slash fics (you know who you are) which is pretty fun for me at least and I actually just like the overall concept of siphoning strength from your enemies. I really wish it was explored more in the story... Oh well. The downs side of all of this is that magic is only useful as a stat booster. Even with a high MAG stat and support boosting skills, Magic is pathetic in terms of damage which in a way helps deter players from using it to lower stats (even if the lowering is negligible) but I feel it takes away too many options from the player.

GFs were a disaster, its almost impossible to get them killed and they can get so powerful very quickly that they end up being a crutch for players who try avoiding the Junction System with its weird menus and fear of doing tedious magic drawing cause you don't bother to use the refining skill to get rid of all those seemingly useless items in your inventory that's taking up space... :roll2. Boosting gives them an interactive feel but after awhile it just gets really obnoxious and tedious, especially when you realize a simple use of Mad Rush will annihilate everything in mere moments as opposed to trying to mash X to get an extra damage for your GFs. They are too easy to exploit in the beginning and in terms of damage output, they are useless by the end of the first disc cause you can jack up your power that quickly.

Refining... is broken. I don;t think I need to say anything else here. Weapon customization seems like a cool concept til you realize its useless except for two characters, Squall who uses it to get Limit Breaks and Selphie whose final weapon gives her a max Hit rate, which seems really spectacular if it wasn't for the fact that Squall's weapons all have max Hit from the get go and an ability to score artificial critical hits...

Overall, the main problem I feel VIII's system has is that it is too easy to exploit and lets face it, god-mode is only fun for the first few hours before it becomes boring. Sure monsters level up with the player but all that really means is that they get more HP and it just makes normal encounters take forever cause even a level 100 monster can't hurt a well junctioned party but thanks to the damage caps, it still takes forever to kill the damn thing. Really, you need to play the game in moderation to enjoy it.

X-2
X-2 brings together FFIII's Job class system, a form of FFV's sub-class system, and VI's Relic system. All three are systems I really like, so what in gods name went wrong? Well first off, you need to switch off the cutscene for dress changes cause they are tedious and ultimately stupid fan service but the other problem comes from the fact that the Dress sphere system is nowhere near as balanced as any of the Job class systems. Who in gods name bothers using most of the dress spheres beyond the simple idea of the novelty of them when you have Alchemist, Gun Mage, and Dark Knight who are all so horribly unbalanced that it makes beating everything but the hardest challenges of the game (and still chances are you will be using them)? Don't even get me started on the game breaking qualities of the Mascot class...

Warrior - Does not hit as hard as it should and even when exploiting elemental weaknesses with the elemental sword attacks, it still feels like I'm only getting a slight damage increase as opposed to something useful, so I might as well just save the MP and the time by just mashing X.

Thief - Can't do damage to save its life even when adding both its attacks since it attacks twice. Its steal abilites are interesting but ultimately useless except for future plans for your Alchemist.

Bard (smurf its actual name) - Mostly a novelty class that doesn't grant really spectacular bonuses, you are better off using a White Mage or having another offensive class.

Berserker - Has mostly useless skills and its high offensive power is painfully impotent due to the classes abysmal hit rate. Even then, it still can't out damage the Dark Knight.

White Mage/Black Mage - Useful in the beginning of the game except for the fact X-2 kept X's BS idea of nerfing mages by making most of their skills single target making the White Mage a terrible emergency aid character and the Black Mage is almost all but useless. Throw in the fact that the Alchemist can do both of their jobs at the same time with little to no MP cost and time use... Yeah....

Samurai - X-2 has to have the worst version of this class in the series which is a shame cause its actually my favorite class in the series. Can barely do more damage than the warrior, heavily skill reliantl, and terribly HP for a melee class, considering you get the Dark Knight class before this....

This is just to name a few... The thing about all the other FF games with job classes, is that everything is balanced enough that you can go into the final battle with using starting classes (okay... maybe not FFIIIj) but overall, the newer classes simply offered alternate play-styles as opposed to just overall superiority. The single spell target mechanics alone nerf the mage classes, and X-2 might have the most broken version of the Dark Knight in the series, seeing as how they have pretty high HP, good defense (for a DK) high attack power and several skills that make random encounters feel more like a chore, not to mention immunity to almost all the games status ailments. Sure they are slow but they are smurfing tanks with nukes strapped to them. Alchemist can do high magic based damage and ridiculous buffing and Gun Mages not only get abilites that give them damage bonuses (which is actually significant for them) but also get several broken Blue Mage skills that allow you to waltz through battles.

I was really trying these classes and I just kept getting annoyed that I always found myself resorting back to the same party cause the other classes are not nearly as fun or useful to use. Gunner gets a bit of longevity for exploiting the bonus damage system with the ATB but even then I hardly found the damage to be terribly noticeable.

The sub-class system presents itself through the garment grid and the Relic system, the problem is that it only really opens up later in the game, its dependent on you actually mastering the classes, and realizing early on that half the classes are useless so why in gods name would I want their abilites, not to mention for the case of the Garment grid you have to tediously switch through different classes to get the abilties cause someone over at Square thought this stupid idea might be fun.

In fact, the Garment Grid system pretty much destroys the entire point of the new ATB system which was trying to put the Action back into the Battle system by making them go faster, which is a pretty moot point when you are constantly going into menus so you can waste three or four turns transforming into different classes so you can get the two abilites you need to end this fight quickly when you could have spent those turns just mashing X or using the Dark Knight, Gun Mage, and Alchemist abilities to wipe them all out. Considering fan favorite spells like Holy, Flare and Ultima can only be obtained by using this ridiculous system is just more salt in the wounds.

The relics are obnoxious cause most of them grant one ability like the wonderfully useful Fire Ring that gives a character the Fire spell and only the Fire Spell. This is the kinda crap you will be getting for half the game, the sad thing is, due to the game's funky stat system (I swear the creators were listening to all the complaints about X's poor stat system and algorithms) you will mostly be using ther Relic system as a makeshift armor system to compensate for your parties poor stats, attaching items that raise Vigor and Defense by 50 points or occasionally using one to gain more XP, why bother using the system beyond a glorified armory?

The ATB system is fast but only because your party attacks simultaneously instead of waiting for someone to go first, it still suffers from the majority of skills having long loading times and while you can time it to have a character constantly on the offense, you are basically still making your party take turns so how is this any different from the old system again? At least XII got it right...

Overall: FFV wins, cause lets face it, this is as good as its going to get... well except for FFTactics, it also wins.

Mini-games:
VIII
You only get a two, an obnoxious Chocobo game that was o unremarkable that most people forget it even exists, and Triple Triad which is so addicting and good that I know people who hate VIII but still play it for this mini-game.

X-2
This game has a ton of them but most notable is Sphere Break which surprisingly became my favorite game in the game. The Lightning towers are kinda fun but frustrating, blitzball still sucks, the chocobo game isn't really any fun and if there are any others, they obviously didn't leave much of an impression on me...

Overall:
I'm going to have to give this to FFVIII cause I was really hoping the game Triple Triad would be made into a game to be brought over here outside of Japan. I even enjoy the rules even if Random kinda throws a wrench into everything but still... its a real sense of accomplishment when you actually win those battles by exploiting all the rules. This is not to say X-2 is bad at this, Sphere Break is just as enjoyable, the rest not so much...

Overall Winner:
FFVIII, yes its far from perfect and it probably does take an odd masochist to enjoy it but the same can easily be said of the other entry. Still, I think there is just more substance to VIII, X-2 does have better gameplay mechanics but its filled with such annoying qualities that it ultimately sucked any joy I may have had in it whereas I can still have fun playing through VIII even if I have to handicap myself to do it. VIII also has the better story and cast, yes its poorly written and god knows the most die hard fans have misinterpreted it and taken it to some extreme places but there are still parts of it that are very enjoyable and the character study of Squall is probably one of the best in the series. Not to mention this is the only game that Nojima did exclusive writing for that I actually like.

[Forsaken Lover]

I would have to say VIII and by a wide margin actually. Then again, I happened to like VIII.

Story:
VIII
Okay, VIII's plot is bat-:bou::bou::bou::bou:-crazy. It starts off really intriguing with child soldiers qwelling international disputes and a supernatural evil taking over a militant country to start the games equivalent of WWI, not to mention the eerie dream sequences where your party live the lives of enemy soldiers from 20 years ago. Then Disc 2 starts and we're faced with the most BS version of a wall banger (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DarthWiki/WallBanger?from=Main.WallBanger) plot twists and time travel crap that the player loses any sense of being able to take anything storywise serious. At the same time though, the story has this kinda odd train wreck appeal. You know its ridiculous but you just can't turn away and well... its entertaining in a sick way. The only exception to this is Laguna's story which for all intents and purposes is very good if a bit jumbled since you are literally dropping into event in a 20 year period with little context of what's actually going on. Laguna is a fun character and the story of his life and its comical ending are quite enjoyable.

So your only defense of FFVIII's story is...it's bad except for Laguna.
Well...I can't argue with that.


X-2
What plot? Okay seriously now, X-2 is a story mission game and well... SE can't do them well. The main plot is lost in the riff-raff of mini-games and silly concerts. Most of Paine's plot is told in a very loose way and you hardly ever get to know any of the new characters except Shuyin and Lenne without collecting asinine McGuffins from every corner.

As by far the most non-linear game in the series, of course you had to do extra work to unlock the storyline. You might almost say X-2 gave you more of a role in playing the game compared to all the other FFs with their fixed endings after a very fixed journey.


What main story their is here, basically is built around retconning the only decent thing about FFX which was its tragic (though pretty sappy) ending.

This seems to be a popular mistake.
X-2 didn't retcon anything.

YouTube - Final Fantasy X - 087 - Final Cut Scene & Credits (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCgdkpJNatc)

Skip to 10:10 after the credits.

See that? That's Tidus being alive. X-2 was already planned.
Logic states Tidus was always supposed to come back.

This, of course, is discounting the fact you can choose to keep Tidus dead and gone. Which I do.


Basically the nuances of the plot are wasted on first time players or people who didn't like FFX. The overall "girly feel" of the game (which is over-exaggerated) turns off many of the FFX fans as well, but then again its hard to be justifying this game to a girlfriend if she walks into you playing as a bunch of scantily clad chicks whose every action leads to some cheesecake fan service. You know what its like to have your parents walk in to the room when Paine is transforming into the Lady Luck dressphere? At least my dad bought me some decent porn videos afterwards...

lol
What else can I say.....
I guess you're just lucky they didn't walk in on you doing the Massage Minigame.


Overall: Porn is good but train-wrecks tend to stay with you longer. Seriously, VIII has a bad plot but its better than a game whose plot only makes up 10% of the content (Assuming you picked up all the Crimson Spheres) with the rest being bubbly filler that will make you throw up. On a more serious note though, VIII has a ton of memorable moments in it like the opening the Assassination attempt on Edea, the battle between the Gardens, and Rinoa and Squall drifting in space. VIII has a lot of memorable moments, whereas I can't really think of anything from X-2 except the cringe worth song scenes and the BS retcon Super Happy ending. VIII wins.

Those are all great moments from FF8 to be sure. Though of course many would say Squall and Rinoa are cringeworthy too. Eyes on Me is about bad as real Emotion to a lot of FF fans.

Anyway, the plot of X-2 is standard FF formula. Mundane every day life or small conflict turned world crisis. The game gives you a good look into how Spira has changed after a thousand years of theocracy. You have to go around and deal with the repercussions of things that took place in X and so-on.
The main plot is decidedly small I'll grant you but there is a whole world of plot which was obviously the intent.



Characters:
FFVIII
Like the story, VIII starts pretty strong and then decides to drop the entire cast except three people after you get halfway through disc 2. Which is a shame cause Zell, Seifer, Quistis, Kiros, Ward, and most of the "villains" could have been really interesting and instead feel like cardboard cutouts. The same can't be said for Squall and Laguna; Squall especially has great character growth and you really get to see the game through his eyes. Yes, he goes all sappy once he decides he loves Rinoa but I have yet to meet a guy who says he's met the love of his life and not do a 180 in personality for it. Even then he still sticks to his calm and snarky self throughout the rest of the game. Even if the cast never does get the growth they deserve, its not like they are bad characters, shirt tempered jock Zell, Bossy but unsure Quistis, Womanizing Irvine, and obnoxious Selphie are still entertaining to watch and their relationship with Squall is what brings out the humor of the game as you watch the party constantly trying to cheer him up while he's only thinking about drowning them in the nearest body of water.

Your defense of FFVIII is quite...strange. Again you freemly admit all the characters suck except Squall and Laguna but that's okay?
I have yet to meet a more unlikable cast than FFVIII's. They're simply static characters with stock personalities. Given their total irrelevance to the plot and lack of development, you might as well cut them out of the story and glue in a character with the same archetype from another RPG.


X-2
Let's take Yuna, who already has the personality of cardboard and make her the main character.

Arguably she was always the main character. The entire game of FFX revolves around her quest after all much like all of FFXII revolves around Ashe's quest.
\

She constantly talks about finally "growing up" and "living for herself" and no longer letting "other people dictate her life" and then proceeds to spend the rest of the game helping ever human, Ronso, Guado, and rock in Spira that happens to have a sad sob story, so basically her character growth is mostly hypocrisy :roll2.

Chronic Hero Syndrome (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChronicHeroSyndrome)

Yuna saves people because she chooses to. In FFX she was the tool of the Yevon church, of Seymour and in the end, of Tidus even. Her decisions were inconsequential as she was led by the nose everywhere.

In X-2 she helps people because it's the right thing to do.
Living your own life doesn't mean apathy to the horrible things going on around you.

In short "You don't need a reason to help people."

Let's throw in Rikku who is horribly obnoxious and let's fill her up with even more sugar, make her legal, and by being legal, make her dress like a smurfing whore..

Yeah I definitely preferred X Rikku.


Then there is Lulu... I mean Paine, who is basically Lulu in all ways except technically being younger and being a warrior instead of a mage.

She's also snarkier and less bitchy. Lulu was a typical defrosting ice queen.


and never really justifies her presence in the story beyond just happening to be connected to the three new guys.

Except that "has little reason to be there except he's connected to a character" is usually the reason a character is part of the hero group in the first place.



Bikkal Gippal is pretty awesome but gets less screen time than O'aka, the Yevon guy, and Maechen two of which are npcs and have nothing to do with the main plot.

Fixed.
And you see Maecehn more than a lot of people. It's kind of his thing.


Lebalnc and her gang, are just plain pathetic and only help to drive the terrible fan service of the game even more.

True.


Shuyin's back-story only allows him to be sympathetic to people who have a heart the rest find him pretty pathetic and mostly at fault for his own problems.

Fixed again.
War-torn lovers is a very old and endearing plot line. Two people who want only to be together are forced apart by unfeeling murderers.
Lenne was going to die. That was beyond doubt.
So, naturally, the man who loved her did everything within his power to try and prevent it.
Some people are weak-willed and would let the loves of their lives die I guess but not everyone.



Overall: VIII's cast fails to live up to its potential, but at least they are interesting and entertaining as opposed to X-2's cast which is void of any major character that is likable. When the NPC's of your game are more interesting and likable than the main cast, I feel that's a major problem. VIII wins.

Irvine is a moron who wants to piss on anything with a vagina. And then lick it off.
If you find that "likable"... Ugh.


Berserker

It's Counter abilities are very useful and can be exploited to make it possibly the best Dressphere.

For what it's worth, I never used Gun Mages because Blue Magic has always been stupid and a chore to get.
"Derr. I want this ability. Better just hope I get hit with it".
Everyone knows how overpowered the Dark Knights are though. I've seen people finish off the superbosses with Three DKs just spamming Darkness.


In fact, the Garment Grid system pretty much destroys the entire point of the new ATB system which was trying to put the Action back into the Battle system by making them go faster, which is a pretty moot point when you are constantly going into menus so you can waste three or four turns transforming into different classes so you can get the two abilites you need to end this fight quickly when you could have spent those turns just mashing X or using the Dark Knight, Gun Mage, and Alchemist abilities to wipe them all out. Considering fan favorite spells like Holy, Flare and Ultima can only be obtained by using this ridiculous system is just more salt in the wounds.

It doesn't take that long if you know what you're doing. A slong as you remember which sphere is where, you can press R1 and switch to it within a second or so. I've seen it done a lot.



The relics are obnoxious cause most of them grant one ability like the wonderfully useful Fire Ring that gives a character the Fire spell and only the Fire Spell. This is the kinda crap you will be getting for half the game, the sad thing is, due to the game's funky stat system (I swear the creators were listening to all the complaints about X's poor stat system and algorithms) you will mostly be using ther Relic system as a makeshift armor system to compensate for your parties poor stats, attaching items that raise Vigor and Defense by 50 points or occasionally using one to gain more XP, why bother using the system beyond a glorified armory?

Because almost every RPG in history has an Equip function where you compensate for stats by equipping things...? This is hardly something new to X-2.

Overall:

You think FFVIII sucks but has a charm to its suckiness.
I don't get it.

[charliepanayi]

You think 1000 Words is better than Eyes on Me, now that's illogical.

[Christmas]

I think Kanno is saying that VIII is the better apple out of the basket of rotten apples. :bigsmile:

Anyway, overall I prefer FF X-2 over FF VIII maybe because I like to do a lot of sidequests and prefer a more light-hearted game rather than a game led by a seriously very serious black leathered guy. :bigsmile:

[Forsaken Lover]

You think 1000 Words is better than Eyes on Me, now that's illogical.

I don't think I ever said that. I said a lot of fans consider Eyes on Me a pretty awful song.

Both songs really aren't anything special and are only worth something when paired up with an emotional scene.

Eyes on Me - For when Laguna visits Raine's grave
1000 Words - the flashback of Shuyin and Lenne.

As backdrops to those scenes, both songs have the proper emotional power.

[Rocket Edge]

VIII is arguably the best in the series (& my personal favorite), and although I thought X-2 was decent it isn't even in the same league as VIII.

[charliepanayi]

Also 1000 Words is better than Eyes On Me.
YouTube - 60-1000 Words (English Orchestral Version)-FFX-2 OST (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhhDaQ8QUlk)

So you did say you thought 1000 Words was better. And I don't need to have Eyes on Me (or indeed any piece of FF music) attached to the scene to enjoy it, I love listening to the soundtrack albums.

[Chris]

What a strange thread. My philosophy is: "All Comparisons Are Odious", so I won't even go there. That being said, I can list my likes and dislikes about each game. I won't. :D

I'll just say that both games are far from being my favorites. Curiously, for many of the same reasons.

[Forsaken Lover]

Also 1000 Words is better than Eyes On Me.
YouTube - 60-1000 Words (English Orchestral Version)-FFX-2 OST (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhhDaQ8QUlk)

So you did say you thought 1000 Words was better.

Whoa. I guess I did. Sorry about that.
Just having trouble focusing today I guess.

[Wolf Kanno]

So your only defense of FFVIII's story is...it's bad except for Laguna.
Well...I can't argue with that.

I would also throw in Squall's growth as a character as well. I don't like time travel stories personally with just a few exceptions so VIII's overall story doesn't do it for me.



As by far the most non-linear game in the series, of course you had to do extra work to unlock the storyline. You might almost say X-2 gave you more of a role in playing the game compared to all the other FFs with their fixed endings after a very fixed journey. I said before that Square (and Square-Enix) are not very good about writing stories around mission based titles. The main story almost always tends to be overshadowed by other elements at least for me. The other issue is that the rest of the "story elements" is basically you seeing what happened to Spira afterwards and considering I wanted Spira to be wiped out of existence during FFX, I can't say seeing the aftermath was at all interesting for me. So this is why I don't like the games story but to be fair, this game is more for X fans than people like me.



What main story their is here, basically is built around retconning the only decent thing about FFX which was its tragic (though pretty sappy) ending.This seems to be a popular mistake.
X-2 didn't retcon anything.

YouTube - Final Fantasy X - 087 - Final Cut Scene & Credits (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCgdkpJNatc)

Skip to 10:10 after the credits.

See that? That's Tidus being alive. X-2 was already planned.
Logic states Tidus was always supposed to come back.I think you are just interpreting that scene as such, I never saw that scene as "OMG Tidud lived!" but rather as a symbolic effort to take a bit of the bite out of the ending by showing Tidus happy after his noble sacrifice. Considering talks of making a sequel didn't even start til work on FFX International was in the production and even then, it was going to be based off fan reaction to the mini-prologue of the Eternal Calm shipped with the International version, I feel its pretty safe to say Square intended for Tidus to stay a martyr for the world. Most sources say that a sequel was not in mind until after the major success of FFX. The scene in question, I also feel, is far too ambiguous to say that Tidus lived as well as there is nothing within the story to suggest how it was possible or even why. Course Spira basically falls in the bad realm of fantasy known as "Anything Goes cause the Writer says so" so I guess you don't need to try and make sense of anything cause there is never enough explanation to ever give a satisfying conclusion to anything Nojima writes.



What else can I say.....
I guess you're just lucky they didn't walk in on you doing the Massage Minigame.You know, I never liked that game anyway... but the results would probably have been the same. :D


Those are all great moments from FF8 to be sure. Though of course many would say Squall and Rinoa are cringeworthy too. Eyes on Me is about bad as real Emotion to a lot of FF fans.

Anyway, the plot of X-2 is standard FF formula. Mundane every day life or small conflict turned world crisis. The game gives you a good look into how Spira has changed after a thousand years of theocracy. You have to go around and deal with the repercussions of things that took place in X and so-on.
The main plot is decidedly small I'll grant you but there is a whole world of plot which was obviously the intent.
I'll agree that parts of Squall and Rinoa's relationship are definetly poorly developed and executed but oddly enough, I don't hate Rinoa (even more odd, despite my strong dislike of FFX, I actually like Tidus) so I never found her as grating as people build her up to be, of anything, I feel she's like many of the FF heroines and feels like a non-entity whose only purpose is to do something stupid to advance the plot. Even then, I feel she's not as bad as Dagger and Yuna in this regard.

As stated above, the rest of X-2's story is only interesting if you actually give a damn about the world but for me, I hated Spira, visually its gorgeous but its populated by people who are too stupid and "sheep like" to deserve to live.


Your defense of FFVIII is quite...strange. Again you freely admit all the characters suck except Squall and Laguna but that's okay?
I have yet to meet a more unlikable cast than FFVIII's. They're simply static characters with stock personalities. Given their total irrelevance to the plot and lack of development, you might as well cut them out of the story and glue in a character with the same archetype from another RPG.I actually like VIII's cast, my main criticism of the cast is that they never grow beyond their initial personalities and most of them feel like they have one or two emotions only. Still, I actually don't mind this, cause despite they lack of depth, they are still fun to watch and they get the job done. I also like womanizers, so I never had a problem with Irvine, though I hate hyper active girls so I'll admit Selphie is quite unlikable. To be fair, its easier for a title to make a cast I'm okay with as opposed to loving them. I love very few of the FF casts as a whole so having a few duds is not a deal breaker for me. Squall alone carried a lot of the character growth for me but then again, I have a lot in common with him.

Personally, FFVII has my least favorite cast in the series but once again, I'm an oddity in the fandom apparently.



X-2
Let's take Yuna, who already has the personality of cardboard and make her the main character.Arguably she was always the main character. The entire game of FFX revolves around her quest after all much like all of FFXII revolves around Ashe's quest.
\I still consider Tidus more of the main character since the story is completely told from his perspective, which is more than I can say about Vaan. X is told from Tidus' perspective whereas XII took turns with each character and mostly told the story from a third person perspective.. Yuna is certainly a driving force in X's plot but so was Rinoa in VIII and most wouldn't say Rinoa was the main character of VIII.


Chronic Hero Syndrome (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChronicHeroSyndrome)

Yuna saves people because she chooses to. In FFX she was the tool of the Yevon church, of Seymour and in the end, of Tidus even. Her decisions were inconsequential as she was led by the nose everywhere.

In X-2 she helps people because it's the right thing to do.
Living your own life doesn't mean apathy to the horrible things going on around you.

In short "You don't need a reason to help people."What are you talking about? Yuna did not make her decision to be a summoner in X because she was manipulated, she was just in love with the story of her father's heroic deeds and saw all the suffering around her and decided if daddy could do it, she could. The Yevon faith hardly manipulated her and Seymour's extension of manipulation was to have her marry him which he convinces her to do by appealing to her soft heart that wants to make people happy. Tidus hardly manipulated her as he himself had little control over what was going on himself, of anything they both were screwed by the games BS cosmology. She's the goody goody hero played to an extreme that makes her come across as a caricature of being a human being.

The whole nonsense with your party battling the Yevon faith was caused by Yuna being an idiot and deciding to try and deal with Seymour on her own after she discovered his secret. This could have been all avoided if she just either let it go (cause frankly this is politics) or at least told the rest of the party and her reckless need to set all wrongs right combined with her Miyaka sydrome that tells her to always do crap herself despite everything in the story saying she's a sitting duck without her competent bodyguards.

The problem is, she's still doing all this crap in X-2, she has always jumped at the chance of helping anyone in need and this never changed between either games, the extent of her transformation from either games was dressing sluttier and smiling more often but she's still the same goody good airhead as she was in the first game.


Yeah I definitely preferred X Rikku.If by "prefer" you mean having your junk kicked instead of having your hand nailed into a wall, then I would agree, her original incarnation is not any better but as stated before, I despise the "Hyper-active Girl" cliche.


She's also snarkier and less bitchy. Lulu was a typical defrosting ice queen. I never found Paine any more funny than Lulu, I really do feel they are interchangeable.


Except that "has little reason to be there except he's connected to a character" is usually the reason a character is part of the hero group in the first place.Except, its mostly a tedious sidequest that is not needed to understand the plot meaning she could have been friends with Yu-Yevon and Yunalesca for all the good it does for her character. She's the loner character though, so they usually work better as a "Less is More", mentality of writing.



And you see Maecehn more than a lot of people. It's kind of his thing.
It doesn't change the fact he's annoying, even if X-2 was lampshading it, it doesn't mean I like having to deal with him even for comical purposes. His big secret was also pretty predictable as I pretty much knew he was an unsent in the original.



Shuyin's back-story only allows him to be sympathetic to people who will cry on any sob story the rest find him pretty pathetic and mostly at fault for his own problems.Fixed again.
War-torn lovers is a very old and endearing plot line. Two people who want only to be together are forced apart by unfeeling murderers.
Lenne was going to die. That was beyond doubt.
So, naturally, the man who loved her did everything within his power to try and prevent it.
Some people are weak-willed and would let the loves of their lives die I guess but not everyone.Fixed :D

No, Lenne was pretty much am upstanding soldier willing to help the cause and they lived in a time of war. She was pretty much willing to sacrifice her life for Shuyin and her home but being the clingy selfish prick that Shuyin was, he gets them both killed in a vain attempt to make himself happy cause he has convinced himself she is his everything. Not to mention its hard to think of him as sane to begin with seeing as how he built a damn doomsday device. To quote a bad movie,


"Sane People don't make weapons"
~Under Siege 2 Not to mention he spends the last 1000 years making Lenne worry and suffer over him cause he goes crazy wanting to be with her in his creepy stalker way and decides to end the world cause he can't be with her despite his revenge being against people who not only died 1000 years ago, but most likely in a gruesome way from Sin. How one goes from "Revenge against my killers" to "Wipe out all life on the planet" is just a major leap in logic and no amount of exposition and sob story is going to redeem a pathetic stalker and jerk like Shuyin after going that crazy. I'm surprised he didn't eat Lenne when they were reunited "so they would always be together". His whole story feels like a bad high school romance drama.




BerserkerIt's Counter abilities are very useful and can be exploited to make it possibly the best Dressphere.

For what it's worth, I never used Gun Mages because Blue Magic has always been stupid and a chore to get.
"Derr. I want this ability. Better just hope I get hit with it".
Everyone knows how overpowered the Dark Knights are though. I've seen people finish off the superbosses with Three DKs just spamming Darkness.Berserkers still suffer from just being outclassed by the overall usefulness of the Dark Knight. The DK dress sphere is just a game breaker through and through.

As for Gun Mages, I'm a huge fan of the Blue Mages and their ability to acquire skills I find fun and unique and sets them apart from the other mage classes, but I love them cause they are broken. You would be surprised how often Stone Breath works on everything. Hell, the Blue Magic of FFX is not so bad now that its not utilized exclusively as a Limit Break which was lame and didn't work in VIII either. They take time to build up but Blue Magic tends to be over powered in most of the FF games. Their species bullets for the Gun Mage make them competent fighters as well which is a first for the class.


It doesn't take that long if you know what you're doing. A slong as you remember which sphere is where, you can press R1 and switch to it within a second or so. I've seen it done a lot.It still takes time, especially when you factor in some of the unnecessary spell effects and the fact the system was designed to have the CGI transformations all the time being the norm which gives them a bit of loading time for transformations even when shut off, it still only takes a few seconds but its a few seconds of all the action being completely stopped to load in the dress change.

The system is not nearly as fluid and I ended up playing the game like a straight version of FFIII with my party members ignoring class changes mid-battle and mostly not using the Garment Grid abilities. Still, the fact that I have to switch around to get sub class skills or even some decent magic is annoying, especially since half the time you'll start the battle in a class that doesn't use the ability well, meaning you have to waste time between rounds switching the classes around just so you can get the skill and fall into the class you need when a new battle starts which is a bit tedious in my book. Its almost like using some broken spell that blows all your MP and requires you to spend each time between fight restoring the characters MP in the menu screen, not exactly my idea of "fast" and "fun".



Because almost every RPG in history has an Equip function where you compensate for stats by equipping things...? This is hardly something new to X-2.You missed my point, the Relic system allows you to augment skills and give the player special support skills and later on, nearly full job sub class abilites but most of the time you'll ignore them for the items that are nothing more than armor. How about we actually just implement a real armor system and let the Relics work like they should. I had a ton of relics and not only did I not bother using 90% of them, I sometimes felt like I couldn't cause what was the point in giving Paine the relic that gives a few Swordplay skills when I would need to sacrifice my relics needed to keep her from getting K.O. by most of the creatures from the halfway point of the game. Crisis Core had the same problem since Zack had an abysmal defense and it takes forever to build the stat raising materia...

On topic, I just feel the game misses the point of what the relic system is by not only making a lot of the times useless but then making other items mandatory to compensate for some awkward game design. The system is just poorly utilized, simple as that.



Overall:

You think FFVIII sucks but has a charm to its suckiness.I don't get it.Basically, VIII has its problems but depending on what you can put up with, its not all that bad. I actually like the game. X-2 on the other hand has some similar problems and I can't stand it for them cause the overall experience is not my cup of tea. Its not even the girl power crap though that is pretty cringe worthy at some points when the game tries to push it a little too hard and goes from B-movie bad to just plain unwatchable. I like VIII for its cast even if only a few of them really stand out and I like the Junction system cause I thought it was a nice idea.

For X-2, I like the idea behind the gameplay but felt the subject matter and the overall quality of the elements don't live up to the potential it could have been. Square is pretty damn awesome when it comes to the Job Class system but they seriously dropped the ball with X-2 due to balancing issues and annoying gimmicky gameplay mechanics. The system really only shines when you ignore most of its features and just except the fact that half the classes suck.

I pretty much hate Spira and Yuna so the story really never had a chance with me but despite all my criticism, I still think X-2 was actually a better game than FFX despite my feelings that the game should never had been made in the first place.

[Forsaken Lover]

Well I really have no motivation to reply to all that. The only reason I replied in the first place was because I was on an impassioned "defend something I like from its critics" fit. But it's gone now.

Honestly WK I do very much respect your opinion because you're obviously intelligent. Which is why when an obviously smart person like you critiques something I like, it makes me think there must be something very much wrong with the game and I'm just dumb for liking it.

But eh. That insecuirty comes and goes and I'm feeling pretty okay and calm right now.

I'll say this though about Shuyin's revenge thing. I notice it happens a lot in fiction. A person starts with seeking revenge against people who did them wrong but then they take it out on people who really did nothing to them. They seem to get lost in the anger of it all.
Acually, that happens a lot in real life too...probably why it happens so much in fiction. Art imitates life or whatever.

[Wolf Kanno]

Don't let me be the voice of quality, believe me. On the one hand, I can spend hours discussing the subtlety and complexity of Ico and how its minimalistic approach to story and character is so well crafted that the player finds themselves enraptured into the conflicts and lives of Yorda and the boy without realizing it and then on the other hand, I also like going out to arcades and playing DDR and lets face it, no matter how good you are, you always look dorky playing DDR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQs83V-uAsE).

So yeah... I'm an oddity amongst fans and despite my harsh words for X-2, the game is the smurfing RPG Holy Grail compared to trash like Crisis Core and epic quality failure like Hydlyde. I actually like the game more than FFX at least, I'm only being harsh cause I'm comparing it to another title I happen to like. Even then, I will agree that VIII is far far from being perfect and has probably one of the worst written stories in the series.

[Forsaken Lover]

Well that's cool then. :)

I made the topic to get everyone's views on the matter and everyone gave their honest opinion. So..that's all ya can really ask for.

To each their own as they say.

[Jessweeee♪]

I can't decide :(

What Mo-Nercy said for the most part!

[The Crystal]

Story:
VIII
Okay, VIII's plot is bat-:bou::bou::bou::bou:-crazy. It starts off really intriguing with child soldiers qwelling international disputes and a supernatural evil taking over a militant country to start the games equivalent of WWI, not to mention the eerie dream sequences where your party live the lives of enemy soldiers from 20 years ago. Then Disc 2 starts and we're faced with the most BS version of a wall banger (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DarthWiki/WallBanger?from=Main.WallBanger) plot twists and time travel crap that the player loses any sense of being able to take anything storywise serious.

Welcome to the Final Fantasy series. A series of games were you start as a relatively normal dude in an army/mercenary-group/terrorist-group/whataver fighting an evil empire/corporation/kingdom, but ends having to stop a demon/god/alien/demi-god/cosmic-horror/interdimensional-creature from destroying the world/planet/dimension/universe.

If those plot-twists cause you to "lose any sense of being able to take anything storywise seriously", then I suggest you stop playing FF games.

[Forsaken Lover]

Completely Missing The Point - Television Tropes & Idioms (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CompletelyMissingThePoint)

Add yourself to that page somewhere Crystal.

He's complaining about the ridiculous "we all grew up together!" stuff. It has absolutely nothing to do with an escelation in conflict.

[The Crystal]

Hmmm... Someone didn't read carefully what he said.
Wolf used the words "time travel crap" in his complain, indicating that he wasn't just talking about the "we all grew up together" scene.

Please, pay more attention next time, Forsaken.

[Wolf Kanno]

You did miss my point, I have no issues of the escalation (I'm a Xenogears fan after all) it does have to do with the poorly utilized time travel story (and after making CT and working on CC, to shame Square :eep: ) and the whole orphanage scene was poorly utilized just for the sake of having a twist that barely added anything to the plot. They could have said they were aliens and it wouldn't have made any difference to the characters cause the whole plot point is dropped as soon as it was mentioned. Not to mention most of the cast becomes a non-entity and Ultimecia is one of the poorest written villains in the franchise with the possible exception of Dysley. VIII is notorious for creating weird plot elements whose only purpose is for one scene and then its quickly forgotten. GF's steal your memories, Oh no, thank god it never comes again ever, not even referenced. :roll2

VIII is just poorly written and even then I still think its one of better Nojima plots compared to such nonsense as "plot hole" Tifa and "Dream Tidus". Then again, I've always said Nojima was a hack writer.

[Saber]

You did miss my point, I have no issues of the escalation (I'm a Xenogears fan after all) it does have to do with the poorly utilized time travel story (and after making CT and working on CC, to shame Square :eep: ) and the whole orphanage scene was poorly utilized just for the sake of having a twist that barely added anything to the plot. They could have said they were aliens and it wouldn't have made any difference to the characters cause the whole plot point is dropped as soon as it was mentioned. Not to mention most of the cast becomes a non-entity and Ultimecia is one of the poorest written villains in the franchise with the possible exception of Dysley. VIII is notorious for creating weird plot elements whose only purpose is for one scene and then its quickly forgotten. GF's steal your memories, Oh no, thank god it never comes again ever, not even referenced. :roll2

VIII is just poorly written and even then I still think its one of better Nojima plots compared to such nonsense as "plot hole" Tifa and "Dream Tidus". Then again, I've always said Nojima was a hack writer.

I don't see this. Although I agree that it was stupid to have them all grow up together and not remember, there was plot a good twist.

It tells how they were raised and accepted into SeeDs. It explains further about the use of GF's and we get very little information about them except they are good for winning battles. It explains the transformed Matron to Edea and not leave us with how the heck did she know Cid. Also it added that Matron wasn't bad it was Ultimecia. People misunderstood that part as it was such a rush into a background. It also gives a good incentive as to the past, Squall and Raine, Seifer and Zell and so much more. If you are looking at how does this tie into the earlier parts of the game, you got it. It unravels all about the past. If you are wondering how it effects the game afterwards, it does that too. It shows Ultimecia controling Edea from a different time (the future). It leads to the time lapse and where you go far into the future.

[Forsaken Lover]

The worst part about that whole sequence is how Rinoa suddenly says "I don't like fighting!" The response? "Well you have to" and that's the end of that. Not even mentioned again.

One of the many reasons I think Rinoa is the worst heroine in the series right there.

[Wolf Kanno]

I don't see this. Although I agree that it was stupid to have them all grow up together and not remember, there was plot a good twist.

It tells how they were raised and accepted into SeeDs. It explains further about the use of GF's and we get very little information about them except they are good for winning battles. It explains the transformed Matron to Edea and not leave us with how the heck did she know Cid. Also it added that Matron wasn't bad it was Ultimecia. People misunderstood that part as it was such a rush into a background. It also gives a good incentive as to the past, Squall and Raine, Seifer and Zell and so much more. If you are looking at how does this tie into the earlier parts of the game, you got it. It unravels all about the past. If you are wondering how it effects the game afterwards, it does that too. It shows Ultimecia controling Edea from a different time (the future). It leads to the time lapse and where you go far into the future.

Except you really don't learn anything new about the party except they knew each other back then. All the supporting cast is pretty much exactly the same as they are as adults. Seifer picks on Zell, Irvine has a crush on Selphie, Quistis is a rule nazi, and Squall dresses like Charlie Brown and whines about Ellone. Of anything only Squall gets any real fair treatment from the flashbacks of their childhoods, the rest of the cast are non-entities. Hell the only thing important about Edea's revelation is you find out the supposed villain is connected to the party to cause some badly written drama that is quickly thrown out the window since your party decides to take her out anyway. The Edea=Matron twist is just to make some silly angsty drama for the party that actually doesn't change anything in the story and barely registers for the characters growth. Especially since Squall seemed to be the least bothered by the whole deal.

The thing is, the whole revelation could be cut out and it would not actually affect the story as a whole. The party dynamics mostly stayed the same after the revelation and the whole GF things is completely dropped. Edea could have easily been just a poor hapless victim with no connection to the party and it really wouldn't have made a difference cause the scene in question does nothing to foreshadow Ultimecia as much as it simply foreshadows that we don't have the whole story on Edea and that frankly was an obvious element from the get go of her introduction. The whole scene is created to give a BS connection between the party and an excuse to try to get the player to feel conflicted. It comes and then disappears and no one talks about it again. No explanation as to what people have been doing since the orphanage closed and many of them moved to Garden, it didn't change party dynamics cause everyone is basically a carbon copy of their past selves except Squall, nor does the story ever try to play with the idea of the GFs stealing your memories.

They are all plot elements loosely hinted to and dropped after their revelation cause the whole thing was basically a terribly ploy to get some cheap emotion out of the player and lace the plot with silly soap opera drama that didn't need to be there. The whole scene feels like an episode of "All My Circuits"

[Saber]

You can't say its needed or not. Some would find it pretty nice to learn about these things, or not. Anyways after several times of playing the game and reading theories here on Eyeonff.com., I learned that most of them can be solved and figured out by the orphanage scene. It's something to think about and it fits perfect in the story. Its not like FF7's Nibelheim where there are so many loops and added/cut stuff here and there.

[The Crystal]

You did miss my point, I have no issues of the escalation (I'm a Xenogears fan after all) it does have to do with the poorly utilized time travel story

And why exactly do you think the time-travel plot was poorly utilized?

[Depression Moon]

You think 1000 Words is better than Eyes on Me, now that's illogical.

QFT

FFVIII better than X-2, also QFT

[Jessweeee♪]

I think 1000 Words is better than Eyes on Me, but I also think they're both better than say, Taylor Swift, and people would disagree with me there.

[Saber]

I like the idea of 1000 words, lyrics, scene, and how it fit in the story line. It's like saying Shuyin had a 1000 words to say. Final Fantasy VIII wasn't anything big, and a lot of people won't remember it as something that stood out. I know I didn't.

In my opinion though all Final Fantasy games are good. Sure they got their pro's and con's but a lot of stuff is like that.

[Clo]

Aw, this thread is painful to me. I thought FFX-2 was a terrible, poorly written spin-off, and it's being compared to FFVIII, which I love! Come on! FFVIII is a real game, whereas FFX-2 is a stupid little thing that got pooped out to make money. And though it's vague, VIII's storyline is much more complicated (two narratives in one), more organized and better written.

EDIT: Though I do recognize VIII has a lot of flaws. Yes, the characters are lousy, the Draw system is iffy, and the storyline is vague as hell, but it still has more substance than X-2.

[Forsaken Lover]

FFVIII was about how love > space and time.

I don't see the substance there. Especially with such poorly executed and horribly contrived love.

[Karifean]

FFVIII was about how love > space and time.


Wasn't X-2 in a way as well? (Maybe excluding "space")

[McLovin']

FF8 was really fun and entertaining. It's characters were like something pulled out of a cheesy anime but it didn't really take away from the cool atmosphere of the world of FF8. If you look at the game under a magnifying glass then of course you will find a crapload of weird stuff but like through the first few playthroughs of the game I didn't even notice it. And X-2 was fun too. Just not memorable. (except for the hot springs scene. I remember it well :bigsmile:)

[charliepanayi]

I think 1000 Words is better than Eyes on Me, but I also think they're both better than say, Taylor Swift, and people would disagree with me there.

The screech of a thousand cats whose tails have just been trodden on is a better sound than any Taylor Swift song.

Why I love FFVIII:

- Brilliant opening
- Even more brilliant ending
- Great soundtrack (especially the Ending Theme)
- Cool locations
- Characters I like (yes I like Squall and Rinoa, and people complaining the other characters don't get a look in miss the point, the game is about Squall and Rinoa. If you want a more ensemble affair, play FFVI, FFVII, FFIX or FFX. They're all great too.)
- I like the orphanage twist (it makes no sense if you look too hard? Obviously it's a FF plot)
- Ultimecia's Castle

To be honest the first two reasons alone had me loving the game completely.

[Jessweeee♪]

My point is, it's like saying green is a better color overall than purple and if you think otherwise it is illogical, when in fact logic plays no part in determining whether or not green is indeed a better color than purple.

[Wolf Kanno]

You did miss my point, I have no issues of the escalation (I'm a Xenogears fan after all) it does have to do with the poorly utilized time travel story

And why exactly do you think the time-travel plot was poorly utilized?

Beyond turning out to be an over-glorified flashback, Time travel comes into the main focus of the story until late in the game and its all held up by the giant Doomsday McGuffin which is Time Compression. Which is a plot element that comes out of nowhere with no real explanation as to why its even important to the villain or where she came up with the concept of it, or even why she felt the need to do it in the first place. When the Time Travel plot device is revealed, Ellone pretty much lays down the rules on how Time Travel works in VIII but suddenly Time Compression pops in and because of it, most of the rules can be thrown out the window travel to the future, and having your body travel through time instead of your consciousness).

Mostly TC is poorly explained and just used as a plot device to give the Big Bad another reason why she needs to be stopped and let the heroes travel to the future to kick her ass. Because of its rather vague descriptions in the game, its allowed some fans to come up with any crackpot theory they can imagine and have a semi-legitimate excuse to say its okay no matter how much of a paradox it may be.

Let's also not forget that the game never explains how Ellone got her power and why she's apparently the only person who has it. Once again, its basically a plot device with little explanation and painfully ignored by the rest of the games cast. Its this type of bad writing that makes me feel like VIII is basically four of Nojima's stories (Time Travel, Witches, Teen Mercenaries, story of breaking out of your emotional shell) that weren't going anywhere on their own and he just decided to haphazardly combine them all into a huge mess.

[The Crystal]

You did miss my point, I have no issues of the escalation (I'm a Xenogears fan after all) it does have to do with the poorly utilized time travel story

And why exactly do you think the time-travel plot was poorly utilized?

Beyond turning out to be an over-glorified flashback, Time travel comes into the main focus of the story until late in the game and its all held up by the giant Doomsday McGuffin which is Time Compression. Which is a plot element that comes out of nowhere with no real explanation as to why its even important to the villain or where she came up with the concept of it, or even why she felt the need to do it in the first place. When the Time Travel plot device is revealed, Ellone pretty much lays down the rules on how Time Travel works in VIII but suddenly Time Compression pops in and because of it, most of the rules can be thrown out the window travel to the future, and having your body travel through time instead of your consciousness).

Mostly TC is poorly explained and just used as a plot device to give the Big Bad another reason why she needs to be stopped and let the heroes travel to the future to kick her ass. Because of its rather vague descriptions in the game, its allowed some fans to come up with any crackpot theory they can imagine and have a semi-legitimate excuse to say its okay no matter how much of a paradox it may be.

Let's also not forget that the game never explains how Ellone got her power and why she's apparently the only person who has it. Once again, its basically a plot device with little explanation and painfully ignored by the rest of the games cast. Its this type of bad writing that makes me feel like VIII is basically four of Nojima's stories (Time Travel, Witches, Teen Mercenaries, story of breaking out of your emotional shell) that weren't going anywhere on their own and he just decided to haphazardly combine them all into a huge mess.

That's what I meant, but it seems you missed my point. I wasn't talking about the escalation in conflict, but the plot-twist that comes out of nowhere at the end of the story, and the confusing time-travel/loop aspect.
Many FFs have those things, so it's not fair to blame only FFVIII for it.

And the game does explain why TC is important to Ultimecia and why she felt the need to do it. It's all there, in Ultimecia/Edea's speech in Galbadia, Odine and Laguna's explanation about TC, and the Scan you can use on her during the final battle.

[Wolf Kanno]

That's what I meant, but it seems you missed my point. I wasn't talking about the escalation in conflict, but the plot-twist that comes out of nowhere at the end of the story, and the confusing time-travel/loop aspect.
Many FFs have those things, so it's not fair to blame only FFVIII for it.

I don't consider the other FFs to be nearly as bad (well IV is really guilty of this so VIII isn't really alone and XIII is just plain... bad) but I really felt VIII did it in a way where it just felt half asses. Other games have bad plot points but often or not its just poorly executed or its a scene that should be taken more for comical reason. VIII is pretty much poor execution and just head scratching "wtf?!" moments. Its all still very entertaining, I was never bored but I never was able to take the game serious anymore after the second disc because the plot just spiraled down towards absurdity imo.

Other games pull some really stupid plot twist here and there but VIII was the one that tended to do it early and often compared to a majority of the FF games.


And the game does explain why TC is important to Ultimecia and why she felt the need to do it. It's all there, in Ultimecia/Edea's speech in Galbadia, Odine and Laguna's explanation about TC, and the Scan you can use on her during the final battle.

I should have made that more clear. I know its important cause she basically wants to conquer everything and become a god, but the game gives no real inclination as to why. Ex-Death is a malevolent incarnation of man's evil and wants to use the Void to rule the cosmos, Ghestahl wanted world domination, Sephiroth felt it was his birthright to become a god, Kuja wanted to defeat Garland, and so on and so forth.

Ultimecia basically shows up and says she's going to compress time to become a god but there is no reason as to why. Even Ex-Death has a logical reason to do the crap he does, even if his Freudian excuse is simply that he is irredeemably evil. Ultimecia lacks any real backstory, and while I feel that Dark Bahamut has come up with a decent idea for why she is the way she is and in fact makes her quite sympathetic, I must point out that the evidence is circumstantial at best and heavily needs for the interpretor to look at her dialogue from a sympathetic "victim" standpoint.

On the other hand, I feel you can also look at it simply as the "I R EVIL" speech it does come across. Her speaking of persecution always gave me the opinion she was simply speaking of it in a casual manner, not in the "You persecuted me specifically" and more of a "you persecuted sorceresses, my people". Because of this, I am skeptical of any theory of her motive being revenge or self-preservation as I feel she is far too narcissistic and arrogant to be doing her actions to save herself from some threat, especially when her dialogue shows over and over again, that she pretty much considers everything around her to be dirt.

Though I am not one to count a spin-off title as canon, Ultimecia in Dissidia does give her personal reason for TC, and it was simply because she wanted to be a god, worshiped forever by her frozen domain. I feel this better reflects what we see in VIII. That she was simply an atypical megalomaniac with a god-complex, who just happened to have a time theme. There is very little justification for TC as she really doesn't have much of a defined motive. She wants to become a god? Fine but why? and why would TC be the option and how the hell did she discover or create the notion to even do TC, how does she even start? Every question just leads to another question and just shows that none of this was really thought out or the writer just assumed the player wouldn't care.

[The Crystal]

Other games pull some really stupid plot twist here and there but VIII was the one that tended to do it early and often compared to a majority of the FF games.

Well, in my opinion many FF games presented a huge, and "really stupid", plot-twist at the middle or end of the game. For example:

FFI was about defeating the elemental fiends and saving the light of the crystals. But this all changes at the end, when a nonsensical time-loop caused by the first boss of the game is revealed to you at the last minute.

FFII was about fighting against a magical evil empire wanting world domination. But this all changes by the middle/end of the game, when the enemy you killed randomly returns from death, and you need to fight against the forces of Hell and Heaven.

FFIII was about stopping an evil wizard of stopping-time/conquering the world. But this all changes at the end, when you have to fight an evil cloud that wants to send everything to some Void, and there is something about a "balance between light and darkness" that wasn't mentioned before.

FFVI was about fighting an evil empire trying to take over the world. But at the middle of it, you need to save a post-apocalyptic world from a mad god.

FFIX was about stopping Terra's souls from replacing Gaia's souls, but at the end of it, there is some Crystal(never mentioned before), and you need to save it from the bad guy who is going to destroy it, ending all existence.

I could cite more examples, but I think my point is clear. Random and unexplained plot-twists that come out from nowhere at the end or middle of the game, are common in FF.
FFVIII isn't the only one.


Obs: If it isn't clear yet, In this post I'm not refering to what you said about the orphanage scene, but to what you said about the sudden change of direction in FFVIII's plot after the end of Disc 2.
That "sudden change of direction" is pretty common in FF games, and blaming ONLY FFVIII for it, is not fair IMO.

[Wolf Kanno]

Obs: If it isn't clear yet, In this post I'm not referring to what you said about the orphanage scene, but to what you said about the sudden change of direction in FFVIII's plot after the end of Disc 2.
That "sudden change of direction" is pretty common in FF games, and blaming ONLY FFVIII for it, is not fair IMO.

You are really caught up with my comment on "change in direction" aren't you?

You miss the other elements of my comments on the story though, the problem here is not just the change in the direction but the fact that the new plot elements are utterly ridiculous (Orphanage Scene) or poorly explained (Ellone's power) or more often than not both (Time Compression and Ultimecia's reasoning). I also said that VIII wasn't alone in this, I commented that IV is pretty bad about this as well, and how it is pure nostalgia that saves it from me hating on the title though I would also count the cast in there as being a redeemable feature of the title.

The other games you mentioned I either don't agree cause the plot twist still fits in line with the story overall, such as the Time Loop, CoD's intro, and the WoR or the scene in question is basically a silly bad ass moment (Mateus conquering Hell and coming back to conquer the world which basically is best summed up with a quote from Kill Bill:



"You didn't think it was going to be this easy did you?"

"You know, for a minute there, I did"I'll give you the one from IX but I find it amusing you left out VII since it has quite a few as well. ;)

I'm talking every new plot element added being stupid and changing the premise from something respectable to something that feels like a really bad sci-fi/fantasy piece. Its hard trying to recount the plot of VIII without noticing how utterly silly it sounds on paper. The other titles have a generally ascent of escalation which despite being a bit silly at times, still fits into the narrative as a whole instead of completely redefining everything, thus it rarely destroys the suspension of belief for the player.

Despite all this, I still like the game but I can't argue with people who feel the plot is stupid or poorly implemented cause I wholly agree. VIII works best as a character piece, as a story its like a bad M. Night. Shyamalan picture. Despite all this, I feel VIII has one of the most ridiculous plots but its not the worst in terms of bad writing. I just feel that VIII had a lot of great elements going for it and it basically went into a bizarre direction, like a half finished Beatles song that Yoko Ono got a hold of and decided to add some "improvements" to. VIII's story frustrates me cause it tries to deal with these bad story twists when there are so many more interesting elements going for it.

[Forsaken Lover]

FFIX was about stopping a war on Gaia. Terra being involved at all and trying to assimilate Gaia is the escalating conflict of the game.

The Crystal is just the climax.

[Breine]

FFX-2 had a fun battle system, and was lighthearted. But c'mon! FFVIII is by far the best one out of those two!

Get real :smash:

[Christmas]

Kinda like apple and orange as the approach plus direction for both are completely unique. But VIII got devour so it takes the cake. :bigsmile:

I like devouring things.