Kefka

[Tonberry_King]

I know people say Sephiroth is the most overrated FF villain, but Kefka comes up pretty close. Sephiroth had a much more detailed backstory and killed off a main character. He also blew up Saturn and Jupiter, as well as the sun during the final battle. Kefka was a lot more evil and villainous, but he gets too much credit. Ghestahl was the one who did most of the work. Kefka just waited for the right opportunity to overthrow him all Star Wars-ish. He also didn't even really destroy the world; the Warring Triad did. Anyone coulda moved a bunch statues. Heck, Shadow did it at the end of the Floating Continent.

Not to mention he freaks out at the sight of his own blood. And he is surprised that there is sand on his boots when they're WALKING THROUGH THE FREAKING DESERT.

[blackmage_nuke]

He also didn't even really destroy the world; the Warring Triad did.

People dont kill people, guns kill people?

Anyway what kefka lacked in Physical strength he made up for in cunning which he used to gain strength.

[The Man]

Sephiroth had a much more detailed backstoryToo bad it's entirely clichéd.


and killed off a main character.So does Kefka indirectly if you don't save Shadow on the Floating Continent.


Ghestahl was the one who did most of the work. KefkaGhastla didn't poison Doma, resulting in the deaths of Cayenne's family. Ghastla didn't explicitly say that the deaths of hundreds of people at once gave him pleasure. Ghastla didn't kill off General Leo. Ghastla didn't mass-murder the espers at Thamasa. Ghastla didn't destroy towns at a whim with the Light of Judgement. Ghastla may have been the one who built up the empire, but he certainly wasn't the one responsible for the most villainous actions in the game.


He also didn't even really destroy the world; the Warring Triad did.Er no, Kefka moving the statues is what destroyed the world. If Kefka hadn't moved them, they wouldn't have done a damn thing. So basically what blackmage said.


Anyone coulda moved a bunch statues.But not anyone would've. Ghastla, who you just implied was the real villain in the game, explicitly told Kefka not to.


Heck, Shadow did it at the end of the Floating Continent.Yes, to prevent the devastation from getting even worse than it would've been if they were more out of balance.


Not to mention he freaks out at the sight of his own blood. And he is surprised that there is sand on his boots when they're WALKING THROUGH THE FREAKING DESERT.So? Those things are just comical. Not everything about a villain has to make him a badass.

[VeloZer0]

So? Those things are just comical. Not everything about a villain has to make him a badass.
The comical side to his character is one of the things that makes him so endearing to players. It wasn't just that he destroyed the world, it was that destroying the world was just a big joke to him.


Sephiroth had a much more detailed backstory
Though true, the way Kefka is developed he doesn't need a back story. We are not meant to identify or emphasize with him in the least. I don't see how fleshing out his past would have added to the game in the least.


He also blew up Saturn and Jupiter, as well as the sun during the final battle.
You can't think that has any relevance other than being a cool battle effect.

[Vyk]

Because there are SIX Jupiters, and Saturns, and Suns. That dude was freaking addicted to that spell. And I totally agree with everyone else. Kefka is a(n evil clown) pimp

[ljkkjlcm9]

Both Cid's death and General Leo's death especially, had way more of an impact on me than Aeris. General Leo it was like... SWEET, this guy's move is AWESOME... WTF he just killed him... not possible!

And unlike majority of FF games where the villian you think is in charge is being controlled, which essentially Sephiroth is by Jenova... Kefka in fact KILLED the person that was suppose to be controlling him.

THE JACKEL

[The Crystal]

Ghastla didn't poison Doma, resulting in the deaths of Cayenne's family. Ghastla didn't explicitly say that the deaths of hundreds of people at once gave him pleasure. Ghastla didn't kill off General Leo. Ghastla didn't mass-murder the espers at Thamasa. Ghastla didn't destroy towns at a whim with the Light of Judgement. Ghastla may have been the one who built up the empire, but he certainly wasn't the one responsible for the most villainous actions in the game.

I think that what Tonberry_King is saying, is that Ghestal was the one ordering Kefka to do many of the things he did.


And unlike majority of FF games where the villian you think is in charge is being controlled, which essentially Sephiroth is by Jenova...

No.
Play the game again, and read the official materials released by Square.

[The Man]

There's no evidence whatsoever that Ghastla ordered Kefka to do any of the things I mentioned, except for mass-murdering the Espers.

And the Ultimania may say Sephiroth controlled Jenova, but Sephiroth's actions wound up serving exactly the agenda Jenova wanted to push forward anyway so it doesn't really matter.

[The Crystal]

There's no evidence whatsoever that Ghastla ordered Kefka to do any of the things I mentioned, except for mass-murdering the Espers.

Yes, but Kefka was able to reach the Espers and kill them in Thamasa, and reach the Warring Triad in the Floating Continent to push them out of alignment, only because he was following Ghestal's plan. Not his own.

Ghestal basically lead him to the Espers and the Triad.


And the Ultimania may say Sephiroth controlled Jenova, but Sephiroth's actions wound up serving exactly the agenda Jenova wanted to push forward anyway so it doesn't really matter.

Jenova's 'agenda' was "DESTROY, KILL, DESTROY MORE, INFECT AND KILL EVEN MORE!"

Sephiroth's agenda however, was "Merge with the Lifestream of the planet and become a god to rule over every soul."

Pretty different agendas if you ask me.

[VeloZer0]

Or his plan involved using Gestahl from the beginning.

[Wolf Kanno]

I know people say Sephiroth is the most overrated FF villain,

He's only overrated so far as saying he's the best villain. I would argue that Kuja is a much better villain, as Sephy is basically a Golbez/Zemus knockoff who uses mind control and an overly complicated plan that comes off a bit far fetched in the long run to have actually worked. It still makes for a good story but I don't feel Sephy really treaded any new territory here.



but Kefka comes up pretty close. I'll agree on the idea of saying Kefka is the "best" villain. Once again, I would say Kuja is pretty damn underrated by some fans.



Sephiroth had a much more detailed backstory Yes, but all it really served to do was give him an unnecessary sympathy (considering Nomura says Sephy is pure evil and should not be considered a sympathetic villain) its more of a over-bloated backstory that gives a Freudian excuse for his insanity. Despite its detail, it doesn't change the fact that Sephy's personality is still pretty much an "I R EVIL" character with no redeemable qualities, he's just evil.



and killed off a main character.Just like Ex-Death... Golbez should get some minor points, as his actions indirectly led Tellah to his own demise and he did die in battle with Golbez... half a point at least.



He also blew up Saturn and Jupiter, as well as the sun during the final battle. Which he can do over and over again. Its superflous special effects, Ultimecia has an attack that has her slam four planets into the party at once, doesn't change the fact Aura/Limit Breaks= WIN.


Kefka was a lot more evil and villainous, but he gets too much credit. Well, we agree on one thing.


Gestahl was the one who did most of the work. Like what? Yeah he caught the original espers that led to Kefka's power and he created the plan to snatch the Warring Triad while Kefka was keeping the party and espers busy in Thamasa but overall, I think you are giving Gestahl more credit than he deserves.


Kefka just waited for the right opportunity to overthrow him all Star Wars-ish. It was partly dumb luck that Kefka succeeded too. ;) Technically, by this logic Kefka is great villain cause he made Ghestahl do all the work and he got all the benefits, which is hardly new in the FF series starting in 16-bit era and continuing on to the PS1 generation.

Yet, I would say Kefka did no such thing, as he killed the Emperor mostly for denying him his urge to kill Celes and then trying to kill him for messing with the statues. Of anything, Gestahl used Kefka to reach his goals cause there was no way he could have succeeded without a cut throat sociopath like Kefka being his right arm man. Gestahl just suffered the fate of irony as he used his little psychopath to obtain a means of god-like power and then when he goes to dispose of him, his "flunky" ends up unlocking the secrets of godhood and kills him instead. Its pretty funny actually.



He also didn't even really destroy the world; the Warring Triad did. Anyone coulda moved a bunch statues. Heck, Shadow did it at the end of the Floating Continent.Just like Sephiroth really didn't destroy Midgard or release the WEAPONS cause that was all the work of the Black Materia and Meteor. Considering Sephy is technically dead (and his soul purged by the Lifestream til the retcon in AC) you can't really say he did all that just cause he put it all into motion. Also, anyone could have used the Black Materia had they also been in the right circumstances. Obviously, no one would agree to this.

As The Man said, the weapon is the Warring Triad but its Kefka's will and actions that caused this, Kefka purposely moved the Warring Triad to cause the devastation so we can still safely say Kefka destroyed the world with his actions.

Also, Shadow failed to stop Kefka and all though anyone could have used it, no one was willing to do it except Kefka. Gestahl said earlier that tampering with their balance could result in the destruction of the planet. So Kefka knew what he was doing and no one was able to stop him from doing so. Also, by staying within the Warring Triads, Kefka was virtually unstoppable. I would assume he probably tried to make Shadow "well done" to get him to back off from interfering.


Not to mention he freaks out at the sight of his own blood.Just like Sephy is so surprised Cloud can lift him after being impaled that he let's him toss him into the Mako Reactor. :roll2

If you pay attention to Kefka's dialogue, you notice quickly he already has a god-complex and thinks he's superior to everything. Having a lower being spill your blood would be something that would catch you by surprise and make you decide to go super psycho on everything. Let's face it, Kefka is on his last straw.


And he is surprised that there is sand on his boots when they're WALKING THROUGH THE FREAKING DESERT.This scene is actually commented on by Kitase (http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=9002538&publicUserId=6049935) ( director and scenario
writer) in which he added that scene to give Kefka an entrance with more personality and to show the player that Kefka has a few screws loose.




There's no evidence whatsoever that Ghastla ordered Kefka to do any of the things I mentioned, except for mass-murdering the Espers.

Yes, but Kefka was able to reach the Espers and kill them in Thamasa, and reach the Warring Triad in the Floating Continent to push them out of alignment, only because he was following Ghestal's plan. Not his own.

Ghestal basically lead him to the Espers and the Triad.

So not having an elaborate Xanatos Gambit (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit) automatically makes you less of a bad guy? By whose authority?

Once again, I feel you guys are giving Gestahl far too much credit, considering he orders his forces to track down Terra in the first half of the game tells me that Gestahl didn't have some far reaching plan, rather he just made lemonade out of the lemons he was given.

You also forget that Kefka mentions restoring the Warring Triad in the Magitech Research Facility, after gloating about becoming more powerful no less, and for a lackey to just jump in front of his "boss" try to take his power to kill a few shmups who just got a lucky hit off of him kinda says he doesn't really respect the Emperor and that's the thing here. Kefka's not really a lackey cause he doesn't respect his boss, in fact much of his dialogue suggests he thinks of himself as an equal to the Emperor; and why wouldn't he? Seeing as how Gestahl needs Kefka to accomplish his goals. This argument acts like Kefka could have been anybody but really it required a powerful and somewhat competent individual with no morality to get any of his plans done.

The other problem here is that this argument assumes VI fans think Kefka masterminded everything, he didn't. I don't think anyone is arguing that Kefka had some elaborate plan to become a god, rather he took advantage of a good thing. What does make Kefka a great viallin is the mass destruction and death he causes as well as the fact he revels in it. None of the other FF villains do this.

Kefka enjoys murdering and destroying, he may have been given the orders to kill the espers and conquer Doma but its seems pretty clear that wiping out the population of Doma was not part of the plan and I doubt Gestahl told Kefka to torch Thamasa and get all those troops killed in the process, since he wiped out his own men in the battle against the Espers. I also doubt killing Leo was part of the whole deal seeing as how Gestahl was willing to forgive Celes and let her rejoin his ranks. I also doubt that Kefka going to Figaro Castle was suppose to involve him trying to burn down the castle and show the world the Empire will even destroy their allies. Politically speaking, Kefka was a huge liability and one that Gestahl felt outlived its usefulness once he openly overstepped his authority in front of him.

Kefka is a great villain because he's likable. He has great dialogue and he's not beneath stooping to humor unlike all the other FF villains who have to be super serious all the time. Yet, despite this likability, Kefka is pretty much an irredeemable bastard who kills for his personal pleasure and his very methods of murder are far crueler and more graphic than other villains of his time. Kefka specifically preys on the weak and spends his time as a god torturing the inhabitants of a nearly dead world all for his own amusement. Then he does something else that makes him different from other FF villains, he gets a very philosophical personality change at the very end. When the party meets Kefka again, he's not sitting here just reveling in the destruction, rather he's grown bored of his daily routine and in his own god-like mind decides that life is meaningless because its just a cycle of destruction in his world. I wonder if villains like Mateus, Ex-Death, Sephiroth, and Ultimecia would have come to a similar conclusion had their plans panned out.

Also, just to kinda show that a lot of the villains need dumb luck to accomplish there goals, the entire plot of VII and Sephiroth's goals and plans only come into fruition because Cloud threw him into the Mako Reactor. All because of some silly dumb luck. Sephy never would have learned about Meteor, the truth about Jenova, nor would he have grown strong enough to mind control people unless the Compilation retcon all that as well in their ever continuing goal to make sure that VII fans are right by making Sephy the strongest villain ever!!! Basically, all of Sephiroth's accomplishments in VII are the thanks to Cloud throwing him into the reactor after he was too stupid to let go of his own sword. :roll2

[The Crystal]

VeloZer0 and Wolf Kanno...

The difference here, is that the other FF villains who used other people to achieve their goals, influenced or manipulated them. For example, Zemus used mind-control on Golbez, Kuja did something that changed the nice Brahne to the crazy evil Brahne(as stated by Garnet herself), Ultimecia took over Galbadia and started giving the orders, etc.
Kefka however, did nothing to influence/control/convince/manipulate Ghestal. The emperor was already after the Espers and the Triad anyway, Kefka just needed to wait.

It's true that Kefka killed lots of people, but in the end, what lead him to the Espers and the Triad(and his supposed 'victory' that so many people praise him for) was Ghestal's cunning. After all, it was Ghestal who thought about imprisioning Kefka to trick the Returners in helping him, it was Ghestal's idea to let the Returners lead the empire to the Gate and open it for him(Kefka was the one following the Returners and waiting them to open the Gate, but Kefka himself said this was the emperor's plan), etc.

But then we have people who think like this:


Anyway what kefka lacked in Physical strength he made up for in cunning which he used to gain strength.

...When in truth, he only needed patience, fake loyalty, and cruelty + bloodlust to do the things Ghestal ordered him to do.
There was no real cunning from Kefka.

And that lead me to...


So not having an elaborate Xanatos Gambit (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit) automatically makes you less of a bad guy? By whose authority?

It's not about being a good bad guy(lol) or not, but to who we have to give the credit for Kefka's 'success'.
The credit goes to Ghestal's cunning, or maybe to the emperor's cunning and Kefka's twisted personality that permited him doing the horrible things he did(and some dumb luck), but the credit doesn't go to Kefka alone. And that's exactly what FFVI's fanbase ignores.

[Wolf Kanno]

My problem here The Crystal is that you are arguing that Gestahl could have accomplished all this on his own despite being a 72 year old man with an empire that is actually filled with people who are against the war. I just don't see that happening. Gestahl needed a sociopathic right hand man to succeed, as far as I am concerned, Gestahl needs Kefka's bloodthirsty nature as much as Kefka needs Gestahl plans.

Hell, Gestahl's only plan that worked in the game was tricking Terra and Locke into indirectly opening the Sealed Gate by having them lead Kefka to the rogue Espers and letting him slaughter the whole bunch of them; which caused the gate to open when their comrades poured out to avenge them. Funny, that the only plan that works is because the Emperor relies on a powerful brute like Kefka to get the job done, as usual. We're ignoring the fact that Kefka killed his own allies and torched Thamasa for good measure; which I highly doubt was also a part of the plan.

My point is that Gestahl is not some mastermind with a Xanatos Gambit that any one of his flunkies could have done. He's smart but most of his plans actually fail in the story and the few that succeed only work because of Kefka, so trying to discredit Kefka by making Gestahl into a more competent villain really doesn't work cause most of Gestahl's plans fail except the one. Even the plan that worked only allowed Gestahl to feel godlike for 15 minutes before he got scorched and tossed off the proverbial mountain by his "flunky" he refused to keep on a short leash.

Considering he kept Kefka around even after he accomplished his plan to obtain the Statues, shows even he wasn't using Kefka and actually did see him as a loyal follower who has a bad habit of overstepping his authority and a penchant for mass murder and collateral damage. So I feel you are giving Gestahl more credit than he deserves in an attempt to discredit Kefka as a whole.

Which is made more amusing by the fact I mentioned three times thatKefka had no plans to overthrow the Emperor nor was he using him; cause frankly, the story never even implies this. Rather I feel he works as a villain cause his evil resume is far longer and crueler than most of the FF villains. Kefka was a true force of chaos and destruction and despite Gestahl being the brains of the outfit, Kefka left his mark more than the emperor did in the first half of the title. Taking Gestahl's plan and going out of his way to add a higher body count and more property damage than any sane person would have allowed, I feel Kefka pretty much tops most of the villains in terms of being just an evil bastard.

I agree that Kefka was not some genius mastermind who masterminded becoming a god, but I don't agree that this means he's any less of a villain as most of his evil actions in the game are purely his own (destruction, murder, and mayhem) and its these qualities that make him a great villain. That and his usual awesomness (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOgritUgo0Y&playnext_from=TL&videos=3W63sgqzZG8) :cool:

[The Man]

There's no evidence whatsoever that Ghastla ordered Kefka to do any of the things I mentioned, except for mass-murdering the Espers.Yes, but Kefka was able to reach the Espers and kill them in Thamasa, and reach the Warring Triad in the Floating Continent to push them out of alignment, only because he was following Ghestal's plan. Not his own.

Ghestal basically lead him to the Espers and the Triad.So? Just because Ghastla's lust for power furthered Kefka's goals doesn't mean Ghastla's lust for power caused Kefka's goals. In the very same post you argue that Sephiroth and Jenova had different goals while completely ignoring the fact that Kefka and Ghastla also had different goals which, unlike Sephiroth and Jenova's, were mutually exclusive.



And the Ultimania may say Sephiroth controlled Jenova, but Sephiroth's actions wound up serving exactly the agenda Jenova wanted to push forward anyway so it doesn't really matter.Jenova's 'agenda' was "DESTROY, KILL, DESTROY MORE, INFECT AND KILL EVEN MORE!"

Sephiroth's agenda however, was "Merge with the Lifestream of the planet and become a god to rule over every soul."You forgot to add "...after killing everyone on the planet with Meteor." Derp.

Sephiroth may have had more of an agenda than Jenova, but his actions still furthered Jenova's agenda. Jenova doesn't give a damn what happens after everyone's dead, she just cares that everyone dies. Kefka's actions, by contrast, were directly destructive to Ghastla's agenda. Ghastla wanted to rule over the existing world. Can't do that if everyone's dead.

In addition, everything Wolf Kanno said, except that I would argue that Kuja is more or less Kefka's equal as a villain rather than his better. I still prefer Kefka because of his sense of humour though.

[Eagle299]

I'm in the camp of fans who say that VII is the best of the series. VI is my close second favorite, though. However, Sephiroth, as badass as he was, and he was extremely badass, you spend the first half of the game following his path of destruction across the planet, he is only my second favorite FF villain. Kefka takes the number 1 spot in my book. Why is this? Because of the way he delights in every little bit of pain, suffering and death he can inflict on the people he encounters. All the while dressed as the court jester. He's an evil clown. He's what you'd get if you gave magic powers to the Joker. Yeah, he runs the first few times you fight him. But how often does the Clown Prince of Crime stand and fight Batman?

I play alot of video games. But to this day, Kefka remains my favorite video game villain.

[dunit697]

I was an ff7 fanboy, but looking closer it faded. I looked back, the greatest thing about kefka is that I hated him. YOU CHEAP MUTHER ******************** BACKSTABBING GHASTAL AND DESTROYING THE WORLD, WHY IS THIS A CUTSCENE, LET ME AT HIM LET ME AT HIM!!!!!!!!! ...minutes later, HOLY SH** I AM GETTING OUTTA HERE, SHADOW THANKS FOR SACRIFICING URSELF BUT GOD IS GONNA F***ING KILL ME IF I STAY...This scene was able to make me hate the main enemy as every game should, much more than sephiroth, (I hardly consider stabbing a flower girl in the back as an epic kill btw...also he didn't even do it, it was his will/clones w/e He was still in the iceburg) Kefka is the only ff character I legitamatley played because i would lose sleep at night knowing he took air...ff13, I care so little i am at the boss and don't care enough to even see the ending, i will get to it. Back to the main point, all the stuff kanno is spot on again so i am not gonna repeat all that, just adding the emotional component that by the end everyone hates kefka.

[Goldenboko]

I loved Kefka as a villain because he had no masterplan, he was just a man wanted to quote Batman, "to watch the world burn." Nothing else.

[Zora]

The purpose of a backstory is to give a villain a motive. But, in Kefka's case, his own personality sufficed. He wanted power, so he obtained power. He wanted to see cities burn, so he burned cities. He was a power-hungry sadist. Sure, there could have developed on it, but even without giving him a backstory, people could empathize with Kefka.

In Sephiroth's case, that backstory was needed to understand where he was coming from. And that's really the main difference right there: Kefka's motive emerged from his personality, ergo did not need a backstory; Sephiroth's motive emerged from his past, ergo his motive needed a backstory.

Edit: Also, I don't think Kefka had any ulterior goals in mind, which is something other villains have (such as Kuja, whose Carnage on Gaia proves his worth to Garland.).

[The Crystal]

Guys, the fact Ghestal needed Kefka's help to reach his goals, doesn't change the fact Kefka needed Ghestal's help to reach his goal too. They were both working together.
The problem with Kefka... No, sorry. The problem with Kefka's fanbase, is that they often ignore this fact, and give all the credit to Kefka.

People say Kefka is one of the most competent FF villains, but he really isn't.
While the other main villains of the series were capable enough by themselves(having power and/or intelligence enough to work alone or to outsmart/manipulate/mind-control other people) Kefka wasn't, and that's why he needed to form a type of 'partnership' with another villain(Ghestal) to accomplish anything.
Kefka betrayed his partner later, true, but that doesn't change the fact he needed a partner to do the things he did until that point, while the other FF villains didn't need any kind of partnership to reach their goals(they had servants/slaves or 'puppets'[people being manipulated by them], but not partners on an equal level with them, both helping each other mutually).

Not to mention that everything was so much easier for him than other FF villains...(automatically destroying the world's surface and gaining godhood by merely pushing three staues, anyone?)

Say whatever you want about Kefka, but he is far from being a competent villain. He was just lucky that the circumstances were in his favor.

[The Man]

I haven't ever heard anyone claim Kefka accomplished all his actions entirely on his own. You're arguing against a straw man. Furthermore, no other villain in any of the games I've played works on his own either: Golbeza uses the help of Cain and the Four Fiends through his mind control and is ultimately working for Zemus in yet another act of mind control; Exdeath employs Gilgamesh and several other lackeys; Sephiroth would've been nothing without Jenova and, if memory serves, uses the pre-existing structure of Shinra to further a number of his plans, not to mention his frequent use of mind control over the other characters; Kuja wouldn't have gotten where he was without Garland, and relies on Brahne's idiocy for a lot of his power; and so on. Furthermore, Kefka isn't the only one to have fortunate circumstances working in his favour; Sephiroth's plans would have been impossible without the existence of the Black Materia. In other words, the other villains are pretty "lucky" too.

[Wolf Kanno]

Actually... After re-reading the VI Advance script (the closest in accuracy to the original), I do feel its possible Kefka was actually using Gesthal to gain power and did plan to betray him. Kefka is the first to mention the Warring Triad and he mentions twice (One in the Magitech Research Facility and the other time in Thamasa) that he was purely collecting power for himself and he planned to "revive" the Warring Triad as well as build his own empire.

The dialogue for the scene on the Floating Continent is different from the SNES version. One, it points out that Gesthal had no plans of "reviving" the Warring Triad which Kefka was trying to do, but a few lines change. In the SNES, Kefka says this after Gesthal fails to beat him.



Kefka: And now, Statues! You've shown me a sign!
It is time you show this old man your true
power!In the more accurate script he simply says...


Kefka: Triad! Your first victim has stepped forward!
Show this useless old man your true power!The first indicates Kefka doesn't know what he's doing and believes the Warring Triad is showing him a sign cause he figures it out, the second gives no inclination in fact Kefka's lines before it shows he may have known about the Warring Triad's neutralization field which is shown by another line change...

When Kefka goes to use the Warring Triad to punish Celes. In the original he simply says:


Kefka: I command you! Give me your power! Arrrgh!
Curses! Listen to me, or you'll regret it!
Give me... POWER! In the more accurate version...


Kefka: Let me in here! Grrr
Now listen to me. No more playing games. I
command you... Show me your power What's important here is that Kefka makes it obvious he wants to stand within the Warring Triad and later makes the famous linewhen Gesthal inquires about how Kefka is unharmed.


Kefka: "How" you ask? By standing in the center of
the Warring Triad, of course.... Or hadn't
you noticed? Kefka seems to have positioned himself on purpose within the Warring Triad, and it also seems Kefka may know more about them than Gesthal seeing as the line that makes it look like Kefka figured it out on the spot is conveniently absent in the more accurate script. Let's not also forget the fact that Kefka begins the duel with a cocky laugh implying he knows something the Emperor doesn't:


Gesthal: What's so funny? Very well then... I guess its only
fitting you go out laughing.I think the dialogue and Kefka's actions early in the scene shows that he may have been planning to take over at some point. A wonky translation makes the scene look like Kefka stumbled upon the truth of the Warring Triad, but the more accurate script shows that Kefka's silly action were intentional for victory, seeing as he makes a bigger fuss about standing in the middle of the Warring Triad. Kefka may have been buying time to get strong enough to take over. Cid's dialogue in the Magitech Research Facility also hints that Kefka may have been powering himself up on the side.

I do feel Kefka may have been using the Emperor (and the Empire) to gain power for himself. With these changes to the script, I don't think its unlikely Kefka wasn't manipulating everyone to gain power and the Warring Triad.


Of course beyond all this speculation I still feel Kefka was a great villain either way if he did or did not purposely wait to get the Warring Triad. I still stand with my initial post about Kefka not having a plan but I found it amusing the dialogue was changed in the GBA script and it lends itself better to the idea Kefka may have been planning it all along. Regardless, Kefka is still one of the better villains purely for personality, his endearing one-liners, and the fact he went out of his way to be cruel and malicious which are all three qualities not seen in the other villains who are simply crazy schemers, who gain infamy for simply killing off a pubescent childhood crush. ;)

[NeoCracker]

I see where you are coming from, but I still don't think Kefka was planning to take over. If you recall in your little Ultimania thread for FF VI, Kefka was the head of the Magitech Research Facility. Basically, he is likely the most knowledgeable person on the subject of Magic.

He seemed to realize, between the legends and his own research, that after seeing them in person, they had power he could manipulate.

I think this, more then showing that Kefka had pre-planned a coup on Ghestal, didn't 'accidentally' discover the power of the Triad, he simply realized that it was a controllable power, and intently placed himself within their barrier.

I say this, cause at no point prior to that scene does he seem to be planning to take over. It makes more sense that the re-translation simply paints Kefka as smarter, though the basis of his character remains unchanged.

[Wolf Kanno]

That's why I still hold to the idea that Kefka had no plan, I was just pointing out how the script could make it seem that Kefka may have had a plan. He's hardly incompetent in the original script. This is mostly playing devil's advocate cause this topic lost its focus 4 posts ago. ;)

Still, I think it works for Kefka's character for him not to have a plan. A majority of the villains spend most of their games trying to make their grand scheme of world domination and godhood a reality only to be stopped before it comes to fruition. Yet, Kefka accomplishes both though neither goal was what he was really after. His only true goal was basically to make people suffer and cause destruction and that we can say he accomplished morbidly well in his game.

[NeoCracker]

So we don't actually disagree at all? Goddamit, all the time wasted typing that I could have been using to masterba......

I mean nap.

[The Crystal]

The Man and Wolf Kanno

The other FF villains weren't being helped, they were using their own abilities(power and/or intelligence) to directly or indirectly force/influence other people in doing exactly what they wanted.
Ghestal however, was doing whatever he wanted. Kefka didn't have any control over him, and he was just lucky the emperor's objectives(reach the Espers and the Triad) were the same as his own. And Kefka was lucky that FFVI's world is the only FF world with a "apocalypse and godhood in an instant" 'button' waiting to be 'pressed' by anyone.

Kefka was waiting for the right moment to strike, because he knew that, sooner or later, Ghestal, by his own free will, would guide Kefka to his goal, because that was Ghestal's goal too. That's not manipulation.


If you guys still don't understand what I'm saying, lets compare Kefka with two other FF villains, okay?
Before the start of FFIX's plot, Brahne was stated to be a calm and peaceful queen. But then Kuja appeared, and convinced her to expand the kingdom through war. He influenced her with his words and intelligence.
Before the start of the original FFVII's plot, Sephiroth fell in the Lifestream with Jenova's head, that tried to take control of his mind. Sephiroth however, overpowered her/it and assimilated Jenova, becoming the one in control of her cells.
Kefka on the other hand, did nothing to influence Ghestal in going after the Espers or the Triad. That were the emperor's plans from the start.

Now, could you imagine if Ghestal lost all his interest for the Espers and the Triad, and suddenly became a pacifist? What would Kefka do to reach his goal, then? He isn't powerful enough to force the emperor to obey him, like Sephiroth did to Jenova, and he isn't intelligent enough to convince the emperor to to do what he want, like Kuja did with Brahne. So, what would he do?
Answer: Absolutely nothing. Because he never showed(during the WoB at least) intelligence or power comparable to those other FF villains.



Kefka was a man who took any opportunity he had, to grow in power and cause mayhem. But the only reason he was successful in that, was because the opportunity allways appeared(Leo conveniently living him un-supervised in Doma giving him the chance to poison the river, the conveniently easy way of attaining godhood and destroying the world in FFVI, etc).
Things weren't so easy for the other FF villains however. The opportunity didn't constantly fell on their lap, they had to work for their power.



Regardless, Kefka is still one of the better villains purely for personality, his endearing one-liners, and the fact he went out of his way to be cruel and malicious
Yeah... But not for his competence.

[VeloZer0]

Waiting for a good opportunity to strike instead of making some convoluted plan is a lack of competence? Sounds like he was the smartest of all the villains to me. Don't stress about it, just wait for a good opportunity to pop up instead of putting energy into a foil-able plan.

messed up badly with his plan. All he was doing was borrowing Garland's power (learning how to create Black Mages, Invincible, etc...) and in the end Garland found out he was going to stab him in the back and kicked him out on his ass. The only reason he got back on his feat again is because 1)he learned how powerful trance was by fluke 2) Garland had a whole host of angry souls sitting around. Sounds a lot like me to be just as flukey as Kefka's plan, if not more so. He may have started with a master plan, but Trance Kuja was a desperately cobbled together 'Plan C'.


Because he never showed(during the WoB at least) intelligence or power comparable to those other FF villains.
So Kefka is a poorer villain because he started from more modest origins instead of beginning the game as the most powerful warrior on the planet? (as both Sephiroth and Kuja were) The way I see it he grew in parallel to the party, a counterpart if you will. As you were getting stronger and more organized so was he.

[The Man]

Kefka was probably in a position of enough power to arrange for the Emperor's "disappearance" and to have himself anointed emperor. There certainly isn't any evidence that the Emperor was a more powerful mage than Kefka was. The fact that the game explicitly depicts Kefka neutralising about twenty espers and absorbing their magicite without the slightest bit of effort indicates that he's easily one of the strongest mages in the world, and as the game never makes any reference to the Emperor being more powerful it is safe to assume that it's entirely possible Kefka was already stronger and just waiting for the optimum moment to dispose of the Emperor in the method requiring the least amount of effort and providing him the greatest amount of benefit.

You apply questions to Kefka that you fail to apply to other villains. Sephiroth and Kuja built off other characters' actions as well; your drawing attention to the fact that they eventually became more powerful than those they built off is a double standard since Kefka eventually became more powerful than the Emperor as well. However, there is no indication that Sephiroth or Kuja were always more powerful than Jenova or Garland; indeed, the text of each game seems to imply otherwise. What would Sephiroth have done if Jenova had wrested control of his mind before he was powerful enough to control her? (Indeed there is strong textual evidence to suggest that Jenova is responsible for his mind snapping in the first place, and driving him to want to wipe out everyone on the planet so he could rule over their souls in the Lifestream - a brilliant gambit by Jenova if true since, had Sephiroth succeeded, it would've resulted in the fullest expression of Jenova's KILLKILLKILL instinct yet witnessed). What would Kuja have done if Garland had turned on him before Kuja was powerful enough to fight back? These are questions you ask of FFVI that you fail to ask of FFVII and FFIX.

A character's raw physical/magical strength is an arbitrary characteristic to admire over the ability to improvise, an ability Kefka unquestionably demonstrates amply. If anything, I'd say Kefka is smarter than the other villains because the other villains spend tons of effort coming up with plans that generally fail miserably while Kefka expends a small amount of effort to cause the greatest destruction possible. Even if the Emperor was physically stronger than Kefka (a position for which there is no supporting evidence, although admittedly there's no strong evidence against it either; the text doesn't address it), and even if Kefka hadn't been planning to off him at the moment of greatest benefit to him from the start, the Emperor was smurfing stupid. It didn't occur to him that letting his dangerously unbalanced minion stand in the centre of the statues' mystical energy might not be a good idea? Even if he was ignorant of the statues' mystical power, that shows a lack of research on his part that's pretty retarded when messing with primal forces that have already reshaped the world.


Kefka['s] goal...was Ghestal's goal too....Did you even play Final Fantasy VI? As I've already stated, Kefka's goals and Ghastla's goals are nothing alike. Ghastla's goal is a living planet to rule over. Kefka wants to destroy all of existence because "nothing can beat the music of hundreds of voices screaming in unison". The two's goals could not be more contradictory. Kefka couldn't give a damn about any of Ghastla's empire; in fact I'm pretty sure if Ghastla had led him to the statues several years earlier, Kefka would've offed Ghastla several years earlier, assuming he had the power.

[Wolf Kanno]

Smurf the English translation, I'm referring to the emperor as Ghastra. Onto work...


The Man and Wolf Kanno
The other FF villains weren't being helped, they were using their own abilities(power and/or intelligence) to directly or indirectly force/influence other people in doing exactly what they wanted.
Ghestal however, was doing whatever he wanted. Kefka didn't have any control over him, and he was just lucky the emperor's objectives(reach the Espers and the Triad) were the same as his own. And Kefka was lucky that FFVI's world is the only FF world with a "apocalypse and godhood in an instant" 'button' waiting to be 'pressed' by anyone.

Sorta like Sephiroth was lucky that one of Jenova's powers was immortality and the ability to put itself back together again in case it got hacked up which luckily allowed him to survive being knocked into the Lifestream by Cloud, which luckily led him to the knowledge of the Black Materia, which luckily was a powerful Doomsday device that just happened to let him have his overly elaborate plan work in the first place, whose existence on the Planet seems far fetch considering it was inhabited by people who protect planets. Which all came down to the fact that Sephiroth was lucky... I mean stupid enough to let a low rank officer not only hurt him badly but toss him into the Lifestream because Sephiroth was too stupid to let go of his own damn sword... Oh yeah, that was all a masterful plan right there folks that was carefully calculated and had nothing to do with the fact that Sephiroth was born with all the plot devices... I mean powers he needed to learn about the games doomsday spell. ;)

Let's not forget the likelihood of Shin-Ra being stupid enough to send Sephiroth to the place they happen to be doing experiments with his biological mother seems a bit far fetched considering they went to great lengths not to tell him the truth when he was growing up. Yeah, sure send him into the Reactor we have Jenova holed up in he won't notice the big smurfing sign on the door saying Jenova's name. Let's not forget all the research papers concerning his origins are in the mansion in town. That wasn't just a little too convenient for story purposes...

Kuja's manipulation of Brahne was mostly him doing his damn job for Garland, the most he used her for was as a guinea pig to test the effectiveness of the Eidolons and then he quickly offed her when that was over only to have Garland lay the smack down on him at Alexandria. So that really did him a lot of good as he basically did nothing more than waste his own time, make a lot of enemies, and
fulfill Garland's goals. Glad his skills came in handy for someone...



Kefka was waiting for the right moment to strike, because he knew that, sooner or later, Ghestal, by his own free will, would guide Kefka to his goal, because that was Ghestal's goal too. That's not manipulation. Its not manipulation, its called being cunning (http://mw4.m-w.com/dictionary/cunning). :p



Before the start of FFIX's plot, Brahne was stated to be a calm and peaceful queen. But then Kuja appeared, and convinced her to expand the kingdom through war. He influenced her with his words and intelligence. Which resulted in failure seeing as how Garland completely neutralized the power of the Eidilons at the start of Disc 3 and Kuja then had to stumble upon the power of Trance on accident to find a way to beat Garland so yeah... its pretty much the same deal as Kefka in terms of acquiring godhood, even more amusing cause Kuja always had god-mode hidden inside of him. Whereas Kefka had to drain the power of the Warring Triad to gain his strength.


Before the start of the original FFVII's plot, Sephiroth fell in the Lifestream with Jenova's head, that tried to take control of his mind. Sephiroth however, overpowered her/it and assimilated Jenova, becoming the one in control of her cells. Except this all required for him to have Jenova within him to begin with so he could survive. Jenova was overcome by her own power in a way seeing as how Sephy would not have survived any of the events prior to falling into the Lifestream. His power is not his own originally, and he owes his success to Jenova. Its only after Sephiroth spent five years in the Lifestream absorbing and gaining power (from a series of flukes and convenient coincidences concerning his heritage) is he able to even gain his powers so he really owes all his success to Jenova being an overpowered plot device like the Warring Triad and being stupid enough to let Cloud knock him into the Lifestream. Only then was he even strong enough to actually control Jenova's body and Cloud's mind.



Kefka on the other hand, did nothing to influence Ghestal in going after the Espers or the Triad. That were the emperor's plans from the start. True, but it doesn't change the fact that Kefka still benefited the most from Ghastra's ambitions and cunningly took him down when the old man served no use. :p


Now, could you imagine if Ghestal lost all his interest for the Espers and the Triad, and suddenly became a pacifist? What would Kefka do to reach his goal, then? He isn't powerful enough to force the emperor to obey him, like Sephiroth did to Jenova, and he isn't intelligent enough to convince the emperor to to do what he want, like Kuja did with Brahne. So, what would he do?
Answer: Absolutely nothing. I would say it would be about the same as if Jenova didn't exist in VII. Sephy would have died in the Lifestream and most of his plot would have disappeared in VII and left us with the infinitely better and more interesting Shin-Ra to deal with. ;)

Let's mot forget that Kuja's ability to manipulate Brahne is pretty far fetched as its poorly explained in the game on how a guy like Kuja convinced a supposedly peace loving person like Brahne to wage war across the globe, even against her own blood relatives. Even using the idea she was emotionally distraught doesn't explain the 180 she pulls. In the end, Kuja is never really shown manipulating Brahne its already begun before the story began and it only worked for the convenience of the plot which is why its poorly explained in the story. That's more of bad writing to get things going than showing off a level of skill.

So Kefka is a lousy villain cause he can't manipulate people? I think you are just desperately trying to grab onto something to take Kefka down at this point, if you have to resort to what if scenarios to prove a point.

Kefka grows stronger as the game moves along cause he's absorbing more power, he succeeds cause he proves invaluable to a man with a certain goal they both desire and due to his cunning and and insight, he's able to discern the truth of Magicite and the Warring Triad before his boss and use the power to kill him and take over.

Yet simply because he wasn't creating some convulated master plan involving illusions, mind control, dolls, squirrels, and a conspiracy theory about JFK, this makes him a poor villain? Despite the fact that he torches towns, is personally responsible for most of the games body count (and happens to have the highest in the series). The fact that after even becoming a god and doing the world domination gig, he realizes that it is boring and decides existence is illogical and deserves to be annihilated?Not to mention most of his personality is portrayed as getting off on murdering people as oppose to giving off long winded speeches about how they will rule the world/become a god, and then utterly fail at the last moment? Is this pretty much what you are saying. Going to ignore everything else he does and focus purely on the fact he doesn't do what every other villain in the series does? So Kefka is a lousy villain cause he broke the norm of all the villains, is that it?


Because he never showed(during the WoB at least) intelligence or power comparable to those other FF villains. Kefka is actually pretty insightful, he figures out that Edgar is a traitor to the empire, discerns the truth of Magicite after witnessing it once with no explanation, tricks the party by convincing them Celes is a traitor, played his part as the jailbird in Ghastra's plan to trick the Returners, wipes out a horde of Espers strong enough to flatten the strongest army on the planet and then takes out another horde of them, all single handily at that... is able to trick Leo by manipulating his loyalty and thus killed the strongest non-magic user in the Empire and then discerns the true nature of the Warring Triad's power before his boss and takes the opportunity to get rid of the "middle man" cause obviously he so dimwitted that serving Ghastra at that point was his better option.

Kefka is actually one of the first villains in the series who is not shown as some omnipotent god being, mostly cause everyone seems to forget the fact that him becoming the main villain is actually one of the games plot twists. Instead, Kefka grows in strength and shows his intelligence in subtle ways. Terra is left under his guidance and learn how to fight and use her powers because of him, which I feel shows he's far from incompetent. Kefka is not suppose to be presented as some all-might manipulator, this isn't like III and IV where the badass villain is being controlled by some even more badass villain. You were suppose to think of Kefka as an edgier and meaner version of Gilgamesh which is why Kefka is the only villain that actually uses comic relief as opposed to being the straight evil villain like everyone else in the series. His growth in strength and his subtle intelligence is just suppose to make the twist seem more believable. Kefka becoming the bad guy was sort of the game's worst case scenario coming to fruition cause the story would have been rather stale had Ghastra succeeded.



Kefka was a man who took any opportunity he had, to grow in power and cause mayhem. But the only reason he was successful in that, was because the opportunity always appeared(Leo conveniently leaving him un-supervised in Doma giving him the chance to poison the river, the conveniently easy way of attaining godhood and destroying the world in FFVI, etc). Things weren't so easy for the other FF villains however. The opportunity didn't constantly fell on their lap, they had to work for their power. Which ones worked for it?



Garland was given power by the Fiends after he died.
Mateus sold his soul and became the most powerful being on his planet before he had to take over Hell.
Xande is the strongest being on FFIII's planet, and Cloud of Darkness is so powerful it takes the power of the omnipotent MacGuffin that is the Crystals to beat it.
Zemus is so strong he's able to still manipulate and control people despite being asleep and has an army of loyal monsters at his beck and call. Not to mention he was smart enough to control the most capable FF villain in the series. Killing him made him stronger so I don't see that as much effort.
Ex-Death is the accumulation of sealed demons and forbidden world destroying magics so he comes out swinging and by the time he shows up, half the crystals are already destroyed making unsealing the Void simply a matter of waiting for the heroes to lead him to them which took little effort or manipulation. He's basically a god by the games third act and that saying something since he doesn't even show up until the second act.
Sephiroth is the biological hellspawn of an alien being whose powers are so ridiculously powerful that she's practically a plot device used to explain all the supernatural crap characters can do in game. He gets knocked into the Lifestream by being an arrogant idiot and by chance his godlike natural powers allow him to grow even stronger while he's in there. He tries to become a god but instead fails gets retcon back into existence even stronger than before and gets killed again by once again underestimating his opponents for the third time... Like many of the previous villains he's the most powerful being to start with and he didn't earn his powers, he just got knocked in and his genetics allowed him to turn a lemon into lemonade.
Ultimecia is once again the most powerful being in her games universe and is probably one of the only villains who actually has to work for her power. Except she doesn't realize her whole plan works because she's trapped in a determinist world's time loop that allows her to set up her plan but is fated to always fail no matter what.
Kuja works to get the Eidolons, loses them to Garland, stumbles upon the power of Trance and still has to use the Invincible to enter it and then lo and behold his Trance just miraculously happens to be more powerful than anyone else and makes him a veritable god... That was just a bit too convenient don't you think?
Seymour gets stronger cause of he gets killed, Yu-Yevon just happens to have the power to possess Aeons and make them into Sin... wow, that required work...
Vayne gains power because Venat just happens to trust him and Cid and teaches them how to make Nethicite, his political maneuvers were also pretty simple and cut and dry. After that it was simply a matter of using this massive empire and his powerful nethicite to back Lady Ashe into a corner and lead her to destroy the Sun-Cryst which was pretty easy since the Marquis Ondore is the one who got her into her predicament in the first place by making her fake her death.
XIII didn't have a villain trying for godhood and his whole scenario is only a pain in the ass cause his own damn nature prevents him from putting things into his own hands so it relies exclusively on other people doing the job for him.


I'd say most of the villains did have an easy time since they were mostly in control. Only Kuja and Ultimecia really had to work for godhood and little good it did for them. Most of them simply manipulated the most powerful force on the planet and made them do all the work for them and they control these forces effortlessly, so I would say that's less work on their part.



Chaos uses the fiends
Mateus has his army
Xande has his demons who happen to benefit from his goals and thus serve him
Zemus brainwashes Golbez into trying to reach him and Golbez pretty much effortlessly accomplishes his goals by using Zemus' minions and controlling the worlds most powerful military
Ex-Death has the humans do most of his work before he even shows up and then just sits around til the heroes show him where the rest of the crystals are, then proceeds spending the rest of the game mastering the spell by destroying towns.
Sephiroth just has to keep Jenova's body in his shape and have it wander around and Jenova's Reunion nature allows him to resurrect and manipulate Cloud into doing his bidding thanks to Shin-Ra, not to mention give him easy minions to exploit.
Ultimecia lucks out by being in the bodies of people the party cares about and they hold back on her
Kuja fails but just happens to stumble upon Trance and luckily the Invincible just happens to trap souls in it and Garland used to joyride on Gaia with it
Yu-Yevon's powers are a plot device
Vayne is pretty much being manipulated by Venat.


I don't see how any of this really required much effort on their parts beyond setting everything in motion. Most of them just took advantage of the heroes being stupid or weak willed. Others just happened to have convenient powers or story elements around to make it easier. I don't see how this is any different from Kefka helping Ghastra achieve his goals and turning on him to obtain a powerful McGuffin like the Warring Triad.



Yeah... But not for his competence.I'd say its more about not being bitter with his fanbase.

[NeoCracker]

The only thing I'll disagree with you on Kanno is Kuja 'stumbling' on the power of trance. I recall him achieving trance through his own means. Kuja use the Iifa Tree created by Garland to forcefully activate the Trance Mode, more so then it just being a freak accident.

I might be off on that though, it's been a while.

[Wolf Kanno]

He stumbles upon it cause he first encounters it when Mog transforms into Madeen. Its only after he realizes how strong Trance is and decided to leave for Terra with a plan.

When the battle with Garland and Kuja commences in Pandemonium, Kuja reveals he's used the strong emotions from all the souls captured by the Invincible to allow him to enter Trance cause he's actually incapable of doing it on his own. He makes a comment to Dagger about Brahne's wicked feelings being a part of what gave him power. The Iifa Tree really had nothing to do with it. :vivi:

Despite my break down of the villains, I don't consider any of them to be inferiror to Kefka, I still feel Kuja is the best villain in the series and I actually love most of the FF villains except Seymour and Ultimecia (okay, so some of them are inferior but it has to do with certain...details...). So my above post is in no way a means of saying the rest are inferior as much as saying that they hardly struggled to get where they were; they are villains, they are suppose to spend most of the games being in control of everything. They are suppose to become absurdly overpowered with godlike powers from a silly magical McGuffin so we can have the kick-ass final dungeon and the epic final battle. Nothing wrong with that. :cool:

[NeoCracker]

He stumbles upon it cause he first encounters it when Mog transforms into Madeen. Its only after he realizes how strong Trance is and decided to leave for Terra with a plan.

When the battle with Garland and Kuja commences in Pandemonium, Kuja reveals he's used the strong emotions from all the souls captured by the Invincible to allow him to enter Trance cause he's actually incapable of doing it on his own. He makes a comment to Dagger about Brahne's wicked feelings being a part of what gave him power. The Iifa Tree really had nothing to do with it. :vivi:



I recal the Iifa tree being a big part of the soul gathering, as well as the Invincible, though it's really not to relevent to the discussion. :P

And I thought he had seen trance before, I figured that whole scene was him getting the Idea of just how to release a trance himself, rather then him stumbling across it, much like Kefka with the Triad.

Though yeah, I guess one could call that stumbling if one desires, it's all semantics anyway. :P

[Wolf Kanno]

The Iifa tree is not really involved with Kuja's plans, it deals with soul manipulation but that has more to do with Garland and Terra than Kuja.

You are right about Kuja knowing about Trance before the scene with Mog though. He does mention Trance with some familiarity though I can't seem to find out where he learned about it from the script. In the scene in question, Kuja finally figures out how Trance works.



Kuja: "So...an eruption of anger against one's surroundings induces a
complete Trance! It's not the will to live, nor is it the desire
to protect another!"

Kuja: "That means...I simply need a powerful soul, even if that soul
is not my own! No, wait... And it can be found there! Hahahaha!!"


The script and other sources pretty much states he finds these strong souls in the Invincible.