Copyright and Movie links shut down

[Rianoa]

The other day i was bored and thought what shall i do walk the dog...no....get some food... no, then thought hey I'll watch a film on movie-links only to see that it had been turned into a forum talking about movies D: .

Then i thought why would they turn a site that had basically every film known to man into a forum i looked into it and bastards in the UK had shut it down for copyright and arrested the creator of the site...im quite embarrassed to be from the UK. Movie links didn't actually have the films on their site just linked you to a place you could view them.

Do you agree that all sites like movie links should be shut down for copyright and they are going over the top at sorting out the problem. Or do you think that copyright is wrong and is destroying the industry and film stars should be paid at least £20 million for each film they are in ?

TVLinks Shut Down, Owner Arrested! (http://www.zeropaid.com/news/9066/tvlinks_shut_down_owner_arrested/)

[Mo-Nercy]

You were still watching films and television series without paying for them and the website provided you with a means to do so. I guess the decision to shut them down is justified by that reasoning.

But then again, if they make this a precedent - torrent clients would be in the wrong too.

Then there'd be no point in using the internet.

[Jessweeee♪]

That's kind of like arresting a gunsmith because the person who purchased the gun committed crimes with it.

[Bunny]

When the film and television industry start making films and television shows that justify the outrageous prices that they charge for dvds, movie tickets, etc. then I will maybe look into purchasing said services.

Until then, I see absolutely no problem with viewing movies for free.

[Rase]

That's kind of like arresting a gunsmith because the person who purchased the gun committed crimes with it.
Seems more like arresting someone who never sold stolen goods, but set up a way for a deal to go down. An accessory to a crime, as it were, which I believe is still illegal.


When the film and television industry start making films and television shows that justify the outrageous prices that they charge for dvds, movie tickets, etc. then I will maybe look into purchasing said services.

Until then, I see absolutely no problem with viewing movies for free.
Because the best way to convince a producer to lower the price of their goods is buy lowering the ROI for said producer. That totally works.

I see no problem with this ruling. If you want to see something enough see it in theaters. Don't wanna pay that much? Rent it when it comes to DVD. Still not low enough? Wait for Redbox or Netflix to get it. If that's not low enough for you I doubt you wanna see the film that much.

[Rad Bromance]

That's kind of like arresting a gunsmith because the person who purchased the gun committed crimes with it.
It's more like arresting someone who's selling prescription drugs under the table to junkies who don't have a prescription for them.

[Mirage]

That's kind of like arresting a gunsmith because the person who purchased the gun committed crimes with it.
It's more like arresting someone who's selling prescription drugs under the table to junkies who don't have a prescription for them.

No, cause no sale is going on.

the "setting up a deal" example further up is the best so far.

[McLovin']

It's still up. They've turned into a movie "review" site now instead of providing links. But who cares there's a bunch of other good movie sites. They'll never run out.

[Bunny]

Because the best way to convince a producer to lower the price of their goods is buy lowering the ROI for said producer. That totally works.

I realize it is counterproductive, but Hollywood has been making terrible moves since long before piracy was a big deal so it obviously isn't effected that much by it. Perhaps more so than in the 90s. Regardless, I have a hard time justifying spending 10$ on a movie ticket, 20$ on a DVD, or 50$+ on a boxed set for a television show when I cannot be sure of the quality (I rarely read what critics have to say) and whether or not the DVD will be "obsolete" in a relatively short amount of time. Ontop of that, CDs/DVDs are perhaps the worst possible way to store media due to how fragile they are.

[Slothy]

Because the best way to convince a producer to lower the price of their goods is buy lowering the ROI for said producer. That totally works.

You'd rather people support the making of good movies by paying to see bad ones? That makes even less sense.

Frankly, I don't think piracy is nearly as big a deal as the movie companies would like us to think. I've rarely known anyone who pirated something that they were willing to pay to see (unless they actually paid to see it first). Film companies complaining about piracy doesn't really amount to much more than an excuse to raise prices, which is the first thing they should look at if they want to know why fewer people are going to the movies. Movies for two people plus any food at said movies can cost upwards of $50 a pop these days.

There's a good reason that I generally wait until Tuesday's when tickets are half price at my theater and bring any snacks I may want with me.


Regardless, I have a hard time justifying spending 10$ on a movie ticket, 20$ on a DVD, or 50$+ on a boxed set for a television show when I cannot be sure of the quality (I rarely read what critics have to say)

Hollywood and game companies have always made crap along with all of the greats. I can understand not being able to justify paying that much for a movie if it isn't absolutely awesome, but if you don't at least keep up with what's out there and what's supposed to be good then you kind of forfeit the right to complain about Hollywood making nothing but crap if you ask me. There are still great movies coming out all the time.

[blackmage_nuke]

Ontop of that, CDs/DVDs are perhaps the worst possible way to store media due to how fragile they are.

I have never had a CD or DVD of mine break in my life and theyre the only electronic data storage item I can think of that doesnt get screwed up by getting too close to magnets.

[Bunny]

They don't have to break, they just have to get scratched in the wrong spot and then they skip an unbearable amount.

[Madame Adequate]

We are moving into a new era of media production and distribution, and companies need to deal with that. Whether this is morally defensible or not doesn't matter - the world has changed, and we all know stuff like this is pissing in the wind.

Companies need to adapt to this. They can't fight it. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

[blackmage_nuke]

By break I meant incur any type of damage that makes it unusable including scratches. Ive had visible scratches on cds that had no effect on the data. Then again I keep all my discs in a case/holder and always hold it by the hole/edges and never by the surface

[Shiny]

I don't see the point in downloading movies on the internet. It takes too much time. I rather just spend a dollar or two to rent it and then watch it within seconds. With that said, even if they close down these pirating sites, there will still be bootleggers who go in to the theaters with their cameras and then sell the movie they just captured to people for cheaper than theater prices. Piracy is inevitable.

[rubah]

I seriously can't understand people who want to watch cam'd bootlegs. Unless something has changed significantly in the quality that I'm unaware of, the most you'd get out of it is the plot, minus all any subtle body language. just wait for it to come out on dvd and get ripped, at least! I mean, that's basically the same thing as waiting for it to come to cheap theaters except instead of $2 it's free.

[Rase]

Because the best way to convince a producer to lower the price of their goods is buy lowering the ROI for said producer. That totally works.

You'd rather people support the making of good movies by paying to see bad ones? That makes even less sense.

I'd rather see people support the making of movies they watch and therefore want to see on some level. Piracy to me means that you think it's good enough to enjoy, but not enough to reimburse the creators. I don't see how this can be helpful on any level to an economy, let alone the quality of future products by the company.


Frankly, I don't think piracy is nearly as big a deal as the movie companies would like us to think. I've rarely known anyone who pirated something that they were willing to pay to see (unless they actually paid to see it first).
Again, the idea of pirating something you aren't willing to pay for on some level doesn't make any sense to me. If there is some desire in you to use a product, there will be a level you are willing to pay/work/whatever to use it, from my view at least. If you don't want to reimburse the creator of something at all for their product while using it that's a problem on your end. I may not want to pay $50k for a car despite wanting said car, but I think we can agree my solution should not just be to take it. My experiences with piracy are the opposite. People I know pirate what they want to see/play, but just don't wanna pay anything for because they have a way to get it for free. This doesn't really fly in an other area of commerce, not sure why you think it should here.


Movies for two people plus any food at said movies can cost upwards of $50 a pop these days.

There's a good reason that I generally wait until Tuesday's when tickets are half price at my theater and bring any snacks I may want with me.
Man, sorry the tickets at your place cost so much. Highest around here is $9.75, and there are a vast number of ways to get it down to $7. I don't know many people who buy the food at the theater, but unless I'm mistaken the profit a theater makes on concessions does not affect the film companies, so that's a different matter.

[Levian]

Pretty much what MILF said. They need to distribute movies in a different way in this day and age. DVD releases needs to be quicker, releases should be as close to eachother across the globe.

ugly example:
A Nightmare on Elm Street
American Release: April 30th
American DVD Release: Still TBA
Norwegian Release: December 2010
Norwegian DVD Release: Oh god, I don't even want to think about it.

how on earth am I supposed to not pirate this movie?

Older movies needs to be more available as well. There's a dozen of old classics I haven't watched that DVD rental places around here doesn't have.

[Loony BoB]

I seriously can't understand people who want to watch cam'd bootlegs. Unless something has changed significantly in the quality that I'm unaware of, the most you'd get out of it is the plot, minus all any subtle body language. just wait for it to come out on dvd and get ripped, at least! I mean, that's basically the same thing as waiting for it to come to cheap theaters except instead of $2 it's free.
Seriously, I can't stand it when I try to download a movie and find out it's a shoddy camcorded piece of crap. >=[

I agree with Lev that they need to start doing global releases for everything if they really want to play the game right.

The future will, of course, be made up of subliminal advertising similar to what we saw in I, Robot.

[Shiny]

Some people have consumer HD cameras now that makes the quality a bit better, but apart from that cammed bootlegs are usually pretty crap because Ray Ray and dem always has to get up in the middle of a good scene to go get some popcorn or take a tinkle.


They need to distribute movies in a different way in this day and age. DVD releases needs to be quicker, releases should be as close to eachother across the globe.

If only distributing were that simple. ;)

[ShunNakamura]

I may not want to pay $50k for a car despite wanting said car, but I think we can agree my solution should not just be to take it.
Indeed since you have literally taken money out of their hands. However, if every person had a matter duplicator that could duplicate anything they had a picture of with practically no overhead cost that would be more akin to the internet/digital example. Obviously in such an environment something would give out. And it is far more morally grey, than the example of which you steal the car from the lot. This is what is happening with the digital media at the moment.

And since people seem to state their own deals I will too. I pirate stuff regularly. Mostly to see if it is worth the cost. Most of the time I find that it isn't. However, I do prefer to rent/borrow over pirating(though it can often be difficult to find things like that). Saves space/time/effort/etc, this is why things like Netflix do so well. People are lazy, they will take the path of least resistance in most cases. However, even lazy people will balk at a path that appears to be ridiculously costly to take. Particularly if there is a path nearby that is far cheaper and far more user friendly(which torrenting movies has become, they can get the movie instantly with nearly no hassle or they can pay for the privileged of being inconvenienced; even computer illiterates can download stuff these days. . . usually. . . my mother is exempted from that group. If I have to teach her how to update her profile pic on facebook or to right click and save an image one more time. . . :mad2:).


Back on topic'ish. The web and the interweb pirates have created new expectations in people. The internet has greatly reduced the cost of distribution and has made it possible to release world-wide at once with almost no hassle to the consumer. However, very few companies have embraced the technology; rather they cling to the past(probably because making full use of the new technology isn't easy nor, for many, intuitive).

As for distribution. It should be released(imo) to both theatre and home theatre(online streaming of somekind) at the same time. This would allow a world wide release(though native language releases may come later) since the net, thus online streaming, isn't limited by location(well location can play a part, but it isn't anywhere near as large as when stocking dvd's in a store). Anyways if that was met it would be ideal. Then the choice of going to the theatre or watching it at home would be entirely up to individual preferences. And the competition could even be good for the theatres when it comes to improving service.

[Miriel]

A little part of me died when NinjaVideo got taken down. :crying2: Not that I used it much for streaming movies, but damn, Ninja Video basically was my television set. So much easier to watch Vampire Diaries or True Blood on Ninja whenever I wanted, rather than waiting to watch it at a specific time on a specific date.

I always wondered why the people at Ninja did what they did. What was in it for them? After the feds shut them down (along with a bunch of other streaming sites), the Ninja Video Manifesto got passed around: YouTube - NinjaVideo Manifesto Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGV-zwseBHY)

Definitely a bit pretentious and they don't really address the issue of legality, but still really interesting to hear the admin's take on pirating and why sites like Ninja Video exist.

[Ouch!]

While I agree that a change in media distribution needs to happen, I also think people need to stop kidding themselves and acknowledge that pirating is illegal, whatever justification one might be able to provide. Piracy is not even an effective means of civil disobedience.

Just accept that it's illegal and move on. People need to stop trying to justify the position; whether the alternative is reasonable or not, theft is still theft. Don't hide behind other things to try to pass the activity as anything else. Just deal with it and move on. That means accepting the consequences.

[McLovin']

"YOU WOULDN'T STEAL A CAR"

that commercial makes me laugh.

[Rad Bromance]

That's kind of like arresting a gunsmith because the person who purchased the gun committed crimes with it.
It's more like arresting someone who's selling prescription drugs under the table to junkies who don't have a prescription for them.

No, cause no sale is going on.

the "setting up a deal" example further up is the best so far.
OH PUH-LEEEEEZE, you know what I meant, you aren't stupid. Okay, fine then, it's like giving prescription drugs to junkies who don't have a prescription for them. It's still illegal, and, in the case of copyrighted media, it's still distributing something that's not yours against the wishes of it's creators.

I always find these threads of people trying to make a moral argument in defense of what equates to stealing (notice, I didn't say is stealing) hilarious. Carry on.

[Del Murder]

While I agree that a change in media distribution needs to happen, I also think people need to stop kidding themselves and acknowledge that pirating is illegal, whatever justification one might be able to provide. Piracy is not even an effective means of civil disobedience.

Just accept that it's illegal and move on. People need to stop trying to justify the position; whether the alternative is reasonable or not, theft is still theft. Don't hide behind other things to try to pass the activity as anything else. Just deal with it and move on. That means accepting the consequences.
Yeah, exactly. We're kidding ourselves trying to think downloading bootlegged movies and TV shows is somehow legal. I get sad when these sites get taken down because then I can't get free stuff, but I'm not going to get up in arms about it.

I just hope the people behind these sites don't get in too much trouble, because I don't think the entertainment industry is suffering as much from this as they might think. At least in my own experience I only download things that I would never pay for anyway. If there is a movie I really want to see I'll go see it in the theater. Taking these sites down just means I'm not going to see their products at all, which could hurt them in the sense that if I liked what I saw I may be more inclined to buy it in the future.

But yeah, definitely illegal, and until they come up with a new cheap way to distribute this stuff it will always go on. Piracy will always exist when there are things to pirate. :)

[Bunny]

"YOU WOULDN'T TEALDOWNLOAD A CAR"

that commercial makes me laugh.

I would totally download a car.

[Levian]

Don't say "yeah, exactly" to a post if you don't agree with it, Del. :D



People need to stop trying to justify the position; whether the alternative is reasonable or not, theft is still theft.
At least in my own experience I only download things that I would never pay for anyway.

[Marshall Banana]

Well...I don't think that downloading a movie is akin to stealing something tangible, like money or goods, which is what I think of when I hear "theft." Really, I don't see much difference in watching a movie on the internet that someone has shared and watching a movie at a friend's house that I don't own either.

[Del Murder]

Don't say "yeah, exactly" to a post if you don't agree with it, Del. :D

People need to stop trying to justify the position; whether the alternative is reasonable or not, theft is still theft.
At least in my own experience I only download things that I would never pay for anyway.
I never said it wasn't still theft. :p I was just saying I'm a good boy most of the time.

[Freya]

I like some of these sites. I can watch a show that's on a channel I don't have. Otherwise I can't watch them at all! When ninja video went down I had to find other ways to watch trueblood :/

[Miriel]

OH PUH-LEEEEEZE, you know what I meant, you aren't stupid. Okay, fine then, it's like giving prescription drugs to junkies who don't have a prescription for them. It's still illegal, and, in the case of copyrighted media, it's still distributing something that's not yours against the wishes of it's creators.

I always find these threads of people trying to make a moral argument in defense of what equates to stealing (notice, I didn't say is stealing) hilarious. Carry on.
My work deals with copyrights, and it's against copyright for anyone to take my images and use or distribute them without my consent. That includes using my images as avatars on a Final Fantasy forum. I'm sure Disney has similar copyrights. But sometimes people take my images and put 'em up on blogs or whatever and I just shrug it off. Is it hurting me? No? Ok then, carry on.

Is anyone arguing that pirating isn't illegal? Cause that's silly, it IS illegal. But legality aside, people are just giving reasons as to why they're pirating, not why pirating should be legal. Why should people stop giving their reasons? Isn't it important to understand the reason why people do what they do? And it's probably in the best interest of studios and movie makers to know the reasons why people are pirating since that's the only way they're ever going to properly address the issue. Shutting down sites will never work, because there will never be an end to these sites. Or to torrents. Or whatever comes after torrents. Someone can say, "I stole this because I don't have money to pay for it" and you can say, "Well that's a stupid reason" but it doesn't change the fact that it's THEIR reason. Just cause you don't approve of it doesn't make those reasonings disappear.

We're living in a new kind of world, where instantaneous access if becoming increasingly important. Everything about how we access and share information is changing, but the entertainment industry is lagging behind.

Look how long the music industry railed against mp3 downloads and the smart folks at Apple thought, "hey we could make money selling individual mp3s!" and now they've got a monopoly on the market and they're making bank while the music industry is still scratching their heads.

[Ouch!]

What I find disgusting about pirating isn't the act itself; it's the attitude of entitlement that so often accompanies the act. While reasons aren't important, most reasons are provided as excuses and justifications meant to mitigate the reality of piracy.

In the manifesto Miriel posted, the speaker asked when leisure became a luxury. When did the cost of a family going to the movie become $50? I understand the plight, I do, but why shouldn't it cost that? It's ridiculous to suggest that we are entitled to go see a movie when we feel like it. This isn't something we are making for ourselves; it is not something of our creation. Movies are the product of the collective efforts and work of a number of other people; you have no more right to their work than they to yours, and people need to learn to stop pretending otherwise.

I don't mean to stand up for the movie and music industries. They're most certainly digging their own graves and price gouging has undoubtedly only contributed to making their own problems with piracy worse. However, I believe that if someone is going to pirate something (personally, I have and most likely will again in the future), they should acknowledge what they are doing for what is it and not try to hide behind justifications. Miriel suggested that providing reasons are important to understanding the motivations and thus solving the problem; I agree. Let's be honest though. Most of the time when someone says, "I downloaded the movie because I can't afford to go to the theater," they're trying to justify their decision as acceptable; they're not trying to create a useful dialogue to solve a problem which is a plague upon the entertainment industry.

[Del Murder]

But if we solve the problem then stuff won't be free anymore!

[Freya]

When I worked at a movie theater the theater only saw a small percentage of the profit. They made all their money on the concessions, not the movie its self. It's sad that even the place that shows the movie for consumers doesn't even see money from it. Sadface.

[Miriel]

What I find disgusting about pirating isn't the act itself; it's the attitude of entitlement that so often accompanies the act. While reasons aren't important, most reasons are provided as excuses and justifications meant to mitigate the reality of piracy.


Yeah, the entitlement thing is pretty prevalent and silly. When my fav sites got shut down, I wasn't like, "HOW DARE THEY?!" I was like, "damn... now I need to find a new site."

If people didn't have a reason to steal, they wouldn't steal though. :p For a lot of people, the reason for piracy is: it's easy, so why not? And not so much: I deserve this, so I'll take it.

[Jessweeee♪]

Okay fine it was a poor analogy. :(

[Rye]

I pirate pretty much everything, except for books. I very rarely will buy a movie if it is literally SO good that it deserves my support, but I do it on principle.

I honestly just don't care. Nothing is so good to me to justify me spending my money. It doesn't shake me or make me, so why should it break me, or my wallet, rather?

I'll admit I have that "ENTITLED!!!" attitude somewhat. I also feel much more of an emotional connection, and therefore a "I will support you" connection, with literature. More so than I think I will ever feel regarding movies or TV, and especially music.

With that said, none of what I've put forth has any real rationality to it. As I said, I just feel a great amount of apathy towards the industry at the moment. It's been a long time since a movie has come out that I loved, and the few TV shows on nowadays that I like are supported by my bill to Showtime/HBO. Don't care.

Also, I was pretty much raised on cam'd bootlegs - all of my Disney movies growing up were bootlegs bought on Jamaica Avenue in Queens - so the quality doesn't bother me unless it's absolutely awful. I died laughing when I downloaded a cam'd version of Toy Story 3 where everyone was freaking out about the quality, when it was seriously not that far off from perfect. People are spoiled by BlueRay.

[Peegee]

Apple is a good example (as much as I don't like their branding) - they sell a la carte mp3s so I don't have to shell out 20$ or whatever ridiculous price for a cd that's full of songs I don't like, just to get my own copy of a single.

That said, as internet speed improves, legitimately stopping transmissions of digital data will be impossible. It's a fight that is pointless to contest just like fighting cds when cassettes were around - digitization of information is inevitable.

The best way is to embrace it and find a new market niche. I will never, ever buy a cd (music) ever again. Haven't done it for 10 years (and the cd I bought was bad) and don't see why I ever will.

[Depression Moon]

I know I wouldn't really do it unless I wasn't going to pay for the said thing anyway or if I was still going to pay for it in the future. There's also the reason of trying to find something old that you can't buy a new copy of. The company wouldn't make money from it anyway if it was something that old that they don't produce anymore like say somebody wanted a copy of Pokemon Blue or Yellow rather they buy it used from someone or download it Nintendo wouldn't make any money from it anyway because they don't even sell copies of that game anymore.


As an artist myself I do like to support my fellow artists when they do a good job. I would only like for the same to be done for me. I would not support them if they were not good, but I would still be curious about it.

I remember back when I was in high school I got some shirts made of some copyright material, one being a mystique comic and the other being an FFVIII T-shirt. my third time that I tried getting a shirt made I was rejected I guess the teacher was getting scared saying something about copyrights. I would doubt Square would be upset with me getting a shirt made with one of their images on it. I am simply just expressing my love of their game and it would be free advertisement for them as well. I remember seeing Janet Jackson fans on TV wearing obvious scanned pics of her photo album on their Tees. Janet didn't seem to be upset about it. I wouldn't be either if I was a musician or when I'm a game developer.

[Madame Adequate]

They need to distribute movies in a different way in this day and age. DVD releases needs to be quicker, releases should be as close to eachother across the globe.

If only distributing were that simple. ;)

Bull:bou::bou::bou::bou:. Unless you're some indie outfit, distributing is that simple. For New Line, it's that simple. Or for a company like Disney, distributing is that simple. But look at the release dates of anything by Pixar between the US and UK. I saw Finding Nemo on a plane ride back from the US before it was even out in England in theaters. No need to translate in any way. They can treat the UK and Ireland as other 'states' for most purposes in the entertainment industry, no further away or more awkward than Hawaii or Alaska, probably less so in fact. But no, they fanny around for who-knows-what reason and then I pirate instead of putting up with their bull:bou::bou::bou::bou: :monster: Heck, even videogame companies have learned this one. You don't see a PC game released more than a few days apart worldwide anymore, unless it's real obscure, and it's pretty rare for console games to have a big gap now too.

[Shiny]

Sure, it's easier when you have larger companies like Disney backing you, but if you're a independent filmmaker working on your own company or a smaller company, distributing is a difficult process. Convincing theaters to play your movie even inside the country it was created, can be a pain.

Also, there is the thing of reformatting DVDs for other countries. European countries do not play NTSC which is one of the reasons why it takes longer for Europe to get American films on DVD. There is also the thing of dubbing and/or subtitling the movie; which can also be time consuming. And of course, there's shipping. I know video game companies that still take a while to release and ship out their games to other countries. It doesn't look like this is going to change very soon.