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Mister Adequate
08-25-2010, 08:39 PM
Because if it is (http://www.ffxivcore.com/topic/11964-surplus-and-you-komoto-speaks/) then I don't know what to make of it.

I think SE may have in fact herped so hard that they derped. Silly limits on things like this (i.e. limits which are not demanded to make the game work right) are not the way to get people playing.

Del Murder
08-25-2010, 08:45 PM
Wow, that's really dumb.

Goldenboko
08-25-2010, 08:58 PM
If they do that, I probably won't buy this game. That will actually hurt how I play games because it's typically *not play* *not play* *not play* *SUPER HARDCORE GRIND* *not play* *not play*

Del Murder
08-25-2010, 09:58 PM
You are basically 75% of the FFXI players, Gobo. Not really sure why they are doing this. It is the exact opposite of how FFXI works. Your exp actually goes UP the longer you play (especially in the new Abyssea zones, it's quite a dramatic increase).

Ouch!
08-25-2010, 10:46 PM
I'm only worried by the cool down on fatigue. Hitting a fatigue point after eight hours (dwindling to zero exp. gain after 15 hours) isn't so bad. That's an awful long time to be grinding. My concern is more that it takes a week to reset the fatigue. Something like a 48-hour reset would be far more reasonable.

Similarly, if they find a use for surplus exp., it may not be so much of a bother. If they create a way to redeem your surplus exp. for something other than physical and skill ranks (I'm not quite sure what yet since anything I can think of would give an advantage to hardcore gamers), it might still be alright.

My biggest problem is that Square Enix is looking to punish the hardcore to accommodate the casual, and that's not cool.

Miriel
08-26-2010, 01:46 AM
I'm a pretty casual player and I'm not sure if this would affect me, but I still think that this is just about the dumbest thing ever.

WHY would they do this? Makes no freakin' sense at all. I swear to god, I sometimes think that the people over at Square care extraordinarily little for their customers.

Ouch!
08-26-2010, 02:20 AM
Potentially it may not actually be all that awful, depending on how it's implemented. The main downside is that it puts an artificial cap on the speed at which someone can raise his physical rank, which gives them more time to develop additional content. It also encourages (read: forces) players to embrace other jobs.

Assume I'm leveling my gladiator. For the first eight hours I will receive maximum exp. For the next seven hours, my exp. will gradually deteriorate until I receive zero exp. towards my class rank and my physical rank. At this point, I can switch my class to pugilist. Since jobs have independent fatigues, I would then be gaining exp. towards my pugilist's class rank. I would, however, still have 0 exp. gain towards my physical level. Instead, my class rank would level normally while I'd gain "surplus" exp. towards my physical rank.

In practical terms, the distinction between hardcore and casual players will be evident in the number of classes one has leveled. While it may take both a hardcore and casual player a month to reach a physical rank of 30, the difference might be that while the casual player only has two classes leveled at this point, the hardcore player may have six.

Looking at it from this perspective, it certainly doesn't seem like the end of the world--at least certainly not the gamebreaker it could otherwise be. I still think that a rested exp. reward system would be better (I'd much rather see Square Enix give exp. gain bonuses to players who log out in cities for periods of time than punish those who want to keep playing).

I think the success or failure of such a fatigue system largely depends on the manner in which they choose to utilize surplus experience points. If they're redeemed for something valuable, it may be beneficial then to embrace the suggestion to level additional jobs instead of specializing in only one.

Renmiri
08-26-2010, 02:44 AM
Ever since a teenager died after like 36 hours of Everquest, people who do MMOs are putting this timers on, afraid of lawsuits.

Wow has them but it resets in 2-3 days I think

Bunny
08-26-2010, 05:42 AM
Wow has them but it resets in 2-3 days I think

Where are these timers in WoW? There are none. They have timers for PvP (WG, honor gain, arena point gain) to prevent people from completing it all in one sitting (which is not a limiting factor so much as a preventative one). They have Raid resets every week to prevent people from getting geared up too fast (for the same reasons). There is nothing to prevent a person from spending 36, 48, or 72 hours straight playing WoW.

I can see an implementation of this system being incredibly good, if well done, or incredibly bad, if done incorrectly. The system that Ouch! outlined seems pretty solid to me, despite disliking the idea of limiting a physical ranking/level and instead putting more focus on the job level. It is still a good idea in theory, but it needs some work.

Del Murder
08-26-2010, 06:03 AM
My concern is that if you spend your time doing something other than exping, if it affects the timer. In FFXI you can spend hours lfp or just idling while chatting on LS. I don't want to spend a few days questing and then want to exp and find that my timer expired. :(

Miriel
08-26-2010, 06:12 AM
I just think it's dumb that Square is trying to regulate how hardcore you can be.

They specifically mention how hardcore players have an "unfair" advantage.

What? Seriously, what?

If someone can devote 20 hours of gameplay, they *should* be further along than someone who can only devote 5 hours a week. I thought that they were going to try and make FFXIV more appealing to the casual crowd, but instead of focusing on helping those with limited time to play, they just penalizing the people who DO have more time to play. That's the most bizarre and backward way to go about things. I somehow doubt that this limit is going last, at least not with such a negative reaction from potential players. But then again, Square has always been super slow about admitting their mistakes and going about fixing it.

This kind of mentality from Square has always annoyed me in FFXI:


Think of it as real-life “fatigue” from working at improving your skills via battle *(aka. No one could train ad nauseam in the real world with no ill effects).

A MMORPG isn't the god damn real world. It's meant to be fun! I hate how Square tries to make everything a little bit harder, a little more tedious, just for the sake of making it more real. Does having fatigue in the game add a level of enjoyment for anyone playing the game? I would think not. Just like slow ass "realistic" running eventually made me loathe going from place to place in FFXI.

Jessweeee♪
08-26-2010, 06:55 AM
My concern is that if you spend your time doing something other than exping, if it affects the timer. In FFXI you can spend hours lfp or just idling while chatting on LS. I don't want to spend a few days questing and then want to exp and find that my timer expired. :(


*Addendum: the version I translated apparently had a couple lines added to it at some later time. This addition may be important for some of you. "Even if you reach the XP limit mid-week, your fatigue will recover in the time not spent skilling up. The one week period is simply a guarantee that it WILL recover then no matter what."

This kinda sounds like it'll be okay when you're not doing anything P:

Mirage
08-26-2010, 10:32 AM
Wow has got rested exp bonus, which works sort of the same way, except in WoW you start at 100%, then go up to 200% when rested, then back to 100 until you get rested again. FF14 starts at 200, but goes down to 100, where it stays until you rest again.

The real problem here is that your exp penalty is based on how much exp you've acquired, not how many hours you've been playing for. If you get a penalty when reaching for example 160000 exp, you'll get that same penalty regardless of how many days you needed to gain those 160k.

Oh, and also the fact that the exp penalty, (or lack of bonus if you want) is much bigger than in WoW.

That's how I understand it based on the last stuff I've heard.

There are tons of rumours around anyway, so I'm just gonna not care until i see how it is in the open beta.

DMKA
08-26-2010, 04:07 PM
I hope that's not true. That's incredibly stupid.

It's not been confirmed as being true or not yet.

escobert
08-26-2010, 08:18 PM
I'm a casual gamer and don't plan on buying or playing this game but that just sounds ridiculous.

Ouch!
08-26-2010, 08:19 PM
I hope that's not true. That's incredibly stupid.

It's not been confirmed as being true or not yet.

Yes it has. It's directly from the website for the beta. Right from the developer's mouth.

Ouch!
08-27-2010, 04:03 AM
Sorry for the double post, but I thought it best to get people's attention about this bit of news. Fatigue has been confirmed to regenerate when you're not actively leveling a job. Fatigue just resets regardless every week (apparently in a similar manner to campaign tallying from FFXI on Sunday mornings).

This seems to me to make fatigue a relative non-issue. Sure, you have zero exp. gain after fifteen hours, but just do something else (idle on another freaking job?) and then go back to it. If people are *really* upset about having to do something else in game after fifteen hours of grinding to let fatigue cool down, they really need to be doing something else with their lives.

Mister Adequate
08-27-2010, 04:58 AM
If I want to play 20 hours of FFXIV a week, and happen to only like one particular job - or simply have some reason to want to level that one to the exclusion of others - I don't think it's unreasonable that I get to do so without arbitrary and ill-conceived barriers like this on it, and I'm not sure it warrants being told that I need to get a life :p WoW has a far better system if you want to encourage different jobs or to help people who play less to keep up.

In short, it's stupid in a great many ways to penalize the people who most like what you're selling.

Ouch!
08-27-2010, 05:21 AM
A fair point, except I'd sincerely doubt you'd spend all twenty of those hours just leveling.

ljkkjlcm9
08-27-2010, 04:23 PM
If I want to play 20 hours of FFXIV a week, and happen to only like one particular job - or simply have some reason to want to level that one to the exclusion of others - I don't think it's unreasonable that I get to do so without arbitrary and ill-conceived barriers like this on it, and I'm not sure it warrants being told that I need to get a life :p WoW has a far better system if you want to encourage different jobs or to help people who play less to keep up.

In short, it's stupid in a great many ways to penalize the people who most like what you're selling.

It's only penalizing people that grind nonstop for hours on end. Just because someone can't play all the time, doesn't mean they like the product less. I know already I won't get to play as much as I would like, but it won't mean I like it any less than any of you. Also, as just posted, if you do other things, it regenerates. (And I doubt you'll only level grind when playing anyways)

Fatigue has been confirmed to regenerate when you're not actively leveling a job. Fatigue just resets regardless every week (apparently in a similar manner to campaign tallying from FFXI on Sunday mornings).

So if you play 20 hours a week it really shouldn't be an issue. Play for 4 hours, 5 days a week, and you probably won't really experience any issues even if you never change jobs. That's how I've come to understand it.

Essentially, it "punishes" those with no lives who will play any free moment. I don't see it as that big a deal, but I guess I'm one of the few. I mean even if you play 15 hours a week, 60 hours a month... with a 15$ subscription, that's 25 cents an hour. If anything I think it will be beneficial to me because it will keep me from grinding and overplaying and getting sick of the game because I don't want to fall too far behind other players.

People just don't like to be "told" how much they should play, and essentially that's what they're doing.

THE JACKAL

Mister Adequate
08-27-2010, 10:18 PM
Well duh people don't like being told how to play :p I also don't think that the guns available to me in Halo should be reduced if I play it a lot, or that the amount of money I get for selling animal hides and meat in RDR should decrease because it's a great game that I caned like a crack addict. xD

Final Fantasy XIV director explains 8-hour fatigue system. In great detail, Final Fantasy XIV PS3 News | GamesRadar (http://www.gamesradar.com/ps3/final-fantasy-xiv/news/final-fantasy-xiv-director-explains-8-hour-fatigue-system-in-great-detail/a-2010082711542408009/g-2009060212274149050)

It seems that it's not actually on a timer, it's divided into a series of discrete units based on SE's estimates of how long it takes to earn XP. This is better in that it would seem not to mess you over if you're idling/travelling/whatever (It occurs to me that I hadn't pointed this out before, but as we originally understood the situation you would get 1 hour 9 minutes of play per day before you started getting penalized at the end of the week. That is not a generous allowance.), but conversely worse in that it's not just down to an investment of time; it is directly affected by your ability. If you're good at the game, and have a good party, you're going to reach those caps much sooner. I'm not going to spew a bunch of elitist claptrap about casuals (not here anyway) but I think you can go a bit too far in trying to level a playing field.

I'm glad this explanation was put forward and I can sympathize with the ideal behind it. Progression is a balancing act and I certainly think XIV will be better than XI was for me when I played if it's friendlier to soloers and casuals. You definitely should be able to get stuff done in shorter spans of time, etc. However, I maintain that it's just poor game design to implement limits like this. If SE want people to play other classes or whatever, they should find ways to encourage that, not penalize you for not doing it.

Old Manus
08-29-2010, 05:37 PM
Casual Fantasy XIV: Online

YOU WANT PRAY YOUR GAME? NOT ANYMORE UNTIL THE WEEK OF NEXT!

Mirage
08-29-2010, 07:41 PM
They should let us play more if we sent them proof of having socialized with friends outdoors. Then I'd be fine with it.

Hythloday
08-30-2010, 08:17 AM
IS THIS REAL LIFE?