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Wolfen
08-28-2010, 04:56 PM
Why is this game so divided amongst FF fans? You either really love it or you really, really hate it. The people who love it played it in 1997 and also like FFX and Kingdom Hearts. The people who hate VII played the NES and SNES games first and think that VII's anime style ruined the series, aside from IX, which they coincidentally love because it reminds them of the NES and SNES games.

I, however, played through the first six games as well as FF9 before playing FF7. I still enjoyed it as much as IV and VI. I also did this within the last year, so I had to deal with 3D graphics that were dated. The story-telling was very well done though and the ending felt like it tied up things very nicely. The sound track was also outstanding.

I still feel like this game is overrated, but I also recognize its standing in the series.

oddler
08-28-2010, 05:25 PM
The people who love it played it in 1997 and also like FFX and Kingdom Hearts. The people who hate VII played the NES and SNES games first and think that VII's anime style ruined the series, aside from IX, which they coincidentally love because it reminds them of the NES and SNES games.

Untrue. I've never even played X or Kingdom Hearts and this is my favorite game. Not to mention I played the NES and SNES games first. Of the games I've played, II and VIII were the worst in my opinion. :choc2:

Raistlin
08-28-2010, 05:33 PM
I don't "love" FF7, but I do enjoy it. Maybe I'm one of the few moderates on this game. Also I hate both FFX and Kingdom Hearts with a fiery passion.

Flying Arrow
08-28-2010, 05:48 PM
There are people who have always legitimately disliked the game, even on release. As far as gameplay goes, it's quite a bit easier than the previous games (although VI isn't necessarily a shining beacon of challenge either) and kind of simplifies the combat and strategy aspect of the series. Some people also disliked the Materia system and how most of the characters were very similar in terms of stats... but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, and I really enjoy experimenting with different weapon/armor/accessory/Materia set-ups. The translation and dialogue is also pretty dog:bou::bou::bou::bou:, and makes most of the characters come across as having Tourette's or something. Other than that, I think Square were at the top of their act with the FF series at VII. As far as plot goes, they haven't told a story as well in any game since.

But also, and more obviously, there are people who backlash against it because of internet hype - a stupid reason to dislike something, but the overbearing relentlessness of the game's fans can't be overstated. The FF7 fan community is a hideous collection of Lennie Smalls who have probably turned away a lot of people who would have otherwise enjoyed the game.

I don't think FF7 is overrated, actually. Playing it at release was wonderful, but I don't necessarily think other games haven't taken elements from FF7 and done them better - they just haven't been able to match the whole package or replicate the effect with today's technology that FF7 had in its own day. What I'm trying to say is FF7 was a really incredible step in a new direction for JRPG fans at the time, and very few games in the genre have been able to take it all that much farther. For a while after release, it felt like a ton of games were deriving elements from FF7 to varying degrees of success. But lately, I feel like a great deal of the genre has become pretty apathetic when it comes to making a fresh, intriguing and engaging product.

Bottom line: I think FF7 has endured because of the impact it had on gamers for the 4 or 5 years after its release. It's still a very good game, but while I don't think it's totally dated, I'm unsure why a young gamer in 2010 (even one with experience in the genre) would pick up FF7 for the first time and proclaim it the greatest game ever the way most VII fans think they should. These days I kind of see FF7 the way I've grown to look at the original Legend of Zelda: to really appreciate it, one had to be there when it was first new and fresh and before what it tried to do had been done already, basically.

Wolf Kanno
08-28-2010, 11:42 PM
Yeah, I am quoting you since I can counter you and give my opinion all at once. :D



Other than that, I think Square were at the top of their act with the FF series at VII. As far as plot goes, they haven't told a story as well in any game since.

I strongly disagree with this as I felt IX was rather well written and at worst suffered only the same way VII had in terms of its iffy writing. To me, VII was written well. Its still a good story but I often felt it required far too often for the player to outright ignore some logic (the whole scenario involving Cid's recruitment, Vincent's back-story, and Cloud's true encounter with Sephiroth in Nibelheim), to suffer through some poor pacing in terms of the hints on Cloud's past (to get the good pacing, you have to have keep Tifa or Aerith in your party for most story sequences), the fact that the biggest contributing factor to Cloud's plot twist was the games poor translation where Sephy Clones creates one idea of Cloud's identity whereas the truth of what a Sephy Clone in shows that Clone is a poor word to describe what they really are (Shades would have been more accurate or even the actual translation of Copy is more ambiguous than Clone which is far more definitive), nor the fact the the whole scenario in the second disc about Shin-Ra is completely bonkers (wait, we're trying to stop the bad guys from saving the world and my party has no real justification for why they are in the right? Not to mention that no matter whether I succeed or not, this whole scenario doesn't change the story at all, WTF?). The game has plenty of problematic writing, plot holes, and accidentally takes advantage of its poor translation to be better than it is. This is not to say other entries are golden beacons of writing on par with great literature, the rest of the series suffers from the same problems.

My point here is that for me, I feel VII's greatest flaw as a game is its writing, its more complex than previous games but it also has more problems because of it not to mention it still continues on with FF's unwillingness to just "go there". Most VII fans are willing to either accept or just ignore these issues but frankly I couldn't get past them and it diminished my experience. Cloud's plot twist, while original and clever, never set well with me, neither its execution or it realization. I never cared for the idea that Cloud was a nobody who just happened to have a series of bad misfortunes make him into a total badass that is actually his alternate personality. It never set well with and I never cared for his story of identity. This also diminishes the game for me, while I can recognize its originality and the guts it took to tell that story, it doesn't change the fact I don't think it was good.



But also, and more obviously, there are people who backlash against it because of internet hype - a stupid reason to dislike something, but the overbearing relentlessness of the game's fans can't be overstated. The FF7 fan community is a hideous collection of Lennie Smalls who have probably turned away a lot of people who would have otherwise enjoyed the game.This I agree is the main problem and lately its no longer just VII's problem, years of squabbling have made VI fans just as despicable and self righteous and I feel IX and X fans are not too far away from sharing the same fate. I think the problem comes from all the sides trying to defend their titles. VII is a very popular game and while I feel it deserves its popularity, I felt even back when it first came out that some of its fans had been a bit too fanatical about it. I do consider it overrated cause that fanaticism is still alive among some of its fans but consequently I feel this fanaticism also made other fanbases do the same to their own titles to make them compete with other groups.

I love VI, is it perfect? No, does it have poor writing and shallow characters? Yes, but not as much as some would say and as a fanboy I would defend the game and try my best to point out that its not as bad as some people make it out to be. To convince others of the depth I've always see in it. Of anything, I have simply just taken solace in the fact that the game still survives in memory and is loved by fans and gaming enthusiast despite the title existing before VII. The fact its memory has survived in the shadow of VII is a testament to its quality and its impact on gaming. I've come to terms with that which is why I'm not as quick to jump into the usual VI vs. VII e-penis debates that go on in FF forums.

On the flip side, I've come to appreciate VII more as I get older and while I still feel the game is overrated thanks to the praises lavished on it by fanboys and the media including stuff it never actually did, I still like the game and I still throw the disc in and play it from time to time cause I actually do like the game, its just not in my top five for the series. I'm looking forward to getting a new memory stick so I can play the game on my PSP (with VIII and IX as well).


I don't think FF7 is overrated, actually. Playing it at release was wonderful, but I don't necessarily think other games haven't taken elements from FF7 and done them better - they just haven't been able to match the whole package or replicate the effect with today's technology that FF7 had in its own day. What I'm trying to say is FF7 was a really incredible step in a new direction for JRPG fans at the time, and very few games in the genre have been able to take it all that much farther. For a while after release, it felt like a ton of games were deriving elements from FF7 to varying degrees of success. But lately, I feel like a great deal of the genre has become pretty apathetic when it comes to making a fresh, intriguing and engaging product.I disagree, to me, VII was a game that still relies heavily on the old RPG conventions of the time and in many ways, borrows and expands the elements that were featured in earlier Square titles of the time. It updated the formula of rebels vs. empire to terrorist vs. corporation, which is basically the modern parallel to the classic formula but where I feel VII falters is that it doesn't really try to break from the old formula.

AVALANCHE is indeed a terrorist organization and its obvious that the reactors they destroyed killed many innocent lives but the game downplays it and does its best to make them out to be the righteous freedom fighters, partly cause Shin-Ra is presented as an irredeemable evil organization that is basically the world government. Barret's story touches upon his group's sins but only does it once or twice and never goes into depth about it. Barret is always quick to say he was in the wrong which also diminishes the possibilities of exploring this mature theme by the fact that Tifa and Cloud never once in the game address the issue despite both their hands being just as dirty.

Shin-Ra is basically the world government and the story you constantly hear when you travel outside Midgard is the companies military policy of expanding its control of the world, there are no rival government bodies in VII's world that bother to show the issue of Shin-Ra being a business taking over political duties beyond the brief moment with the mayor of Midgard. Shin-Ra is for all intents and purposes is an evil empire whose only goal is power and wealth which is not a far stretch from any previous traditional empires from the genres before it. This is the problem I have when people say that VII broke boundaries, its shallow, the names are different but its till the same scenario we've seen before once you look past the terminology. I feel that VII pushed the genre into more mature territory by doing this but I can't say VII succeeded in actually addressing real mature topics, it simply did what its predecessors did and touched upon it and quickly never spoke of it. VII has a definite preachy element of environmentalism and mankind should be having unity with the world instead of dominating it, but its other elements about terrorism, corporate interest, Economical social commentary, and ethics on genetic engineering are simply mentioned in the first ten hours and quickly dropped and downplayed for the rest of the game in favor of a more traditional sword and sorcery adventure after a megalomaniac villain, the mature themes only very briefly returning at the end of the game when the party gives a clever "moral of the story" friendship speech before the big final battles.

Why I feel this is detrimental is the fact that there is a game that does touch upon many of these elements and actually goes somewhere with it and actually does a better job on commentary. Xenogears and Final Fantasy Tactics are the games that prevented me from being impressed by whatever "depth" fanboys spoke about that VII brought to the genre. Tactics was a game that was all about social classes and the way they screw over everyone involved, it had a deep political story and touched upon the dangers of religion as a political tool and letting it have influence upon people. The game dealt heavily on the ideology or morality, social class, family bonds, and politics and religion. VII is like a comic book compared to Tactics which is more like Shakespeare when compared to the former.

Xenogears is to me, the greatest game to come out of Square and has never been topped by anyone in the 12 years since it came out. Despite being released a year after VII, the game was developed at the same time and despite being rushed and unfinished, the game has more depth than most of the medium of gaming. It deals with religion as a political tool, social classes, genetic engineering, war, morality, ethics, justice, faith and spirituality. It touches upon exploitation of minorities for political gain, drugs, and religious conflict. The plot is convulated as hell but oddly enough makes complete sense once all the cards are on the table and makes heavy use of Christian, Buddhist, and Gnostic philosophy in its characters and stories. It "goes there", its T rating is only proof about how ineffective and flawed the ESRB was back in the day (and still is but I actually feel this is a good thing) cause the game deals with so many mature elements. They are not simply just garnishes to make the villains seem more evil, or the heroes to be more human, these are elements that are part of the story that get large parts of the story addressed to them. The revelation of the Ethos organization and exploring the inner workings of Solaris will change your mind on how to view religion and social engineering. Hell, Solaris makes Shin-Ra look like a nice alternative for a world government.

Bottom line: I feel that Xenogears and Final Fantasy Tactics both greatly surpass VII and both were able to go farther than VII did. Toss in the fact they were released not long after VII itself and I feel they are not titles that simply tried to build on VII's merits but instead established their own. VII to me is not some beacon of greatness that ushered in a new era of game design and story telling. These two titles were and the fact that neither really gets the credit they deserve is still one of the great injustices of gaming. VII took baby steps into breaking new ground and imo, a quick run through of the plots of pre-VII RPGs around 94-97 era shows the genre was going there anyway, it just didn't have the technology to convey it as well as VII and quite frankly, even VII falls short of this.

The game is often praised for re-inventing the genre but I feel VII simply makes a few name changes and takes advantage of its new technology to tell a bigger story but in the end, sticks to normal conventions that dominated its predecessors. The genre grew because of the new medium of technology to create the games but VII itself didn't magically pull the genre out of the dark ages, there was depth before it and there was depth after it. Fanboys and the media sometimes act like RPGs were all like DQI, FFI, and the original Legend of Zelda and that VII was the first game to introduce plot and characters and make the genre story focused when looking back at the games of the time, it was already moving that way and most of these elements already existed before it.

Levian
08-28-2010, 11:47 PM
When something is loved by a lot of people, another group of people tend to exaggerate their opinion to polarize the first group. See other pop culture phenomenons.

Winter Nights
08-29-2010, 01:26 AM
I don't dislike FF7, per se. I do think it is highly overrated, but I don't dislike it. It's a fun game and I still replay it, on occasion. That said, it's far too easy, for an FF. The first time I beat it, I clocked in at something like 60 hours. I was about 16, at the time. Since, then it's gradually taking less and less time, every time I played it. Last time I played, which was something like a year and a half ago, I clocked in somewhere just under 20 hours. While that speaks toward it's replay value, it also speaks volumes on how easy it is to get through it. Plus, as noted above, the characters are interchangeable. Limit breaks and weapons are the only thing that separate the characters in battle, limit breaks being the only difference that actually matters.

As pointed out, the writing can be atrocious at times and the reveal about Cloud was beyond sloppy. This is the mark that hurts it most for me. While the writing tends to be flawed in many FFs, it seems to occur more often in FF7. That said, most of those issues come from a rushed translation. If they had taken more time to translate it better, it might hold up more for me. As it stands, the story doesn't come off as complex at all, to me, just complicated.

Like I said, I like the game and replay in every few years. But, while it's definitely not one of the worst, it's hardly one of the best.

Clo
08-29-2010, 03:18 PM
For me, I recognize that my love for FF7 (considering how much I play it, it has to be love) is largely based on nostalgia.

Flying Arrow
08-29-2010, 09:52 PM
Sheeeit, Wolf. You caught me in a few blanket statements, so I'll try to respond as best I can.


I strongly disagree with this as I felt IX was rather well written and at worst suffered only the same way VII had in terms of its iffy writing...

Ehh. Line-by-line, IX is by far the better written script, technically. I'm playing through VII now, and its dialog on the whole is so criminally bad that I wonder how I was able to get through the story so many times in my life. As someone who corrects student writing for a living, I have nothing but absolute contempt for whoever wrote the "english" script. But then again, I was 13-years-old when I played VII for the first time and just coming off the SNES generation (which had a slew of my favourite games - many RPGs). VII's progression just felt right to me, and maybe that's because it's basically an M-themed graphicked-up SNES game. It goes bonkers at points, but so do all JRPGs. This isn't an excuse for weak storytelling, of course. What I like about VII is that it seems to hit all the story points properly, even if a little stilted. I've never felt entirely comfortable with Square's games post-FFVIII. There are plenty that I love, but I also think that the scripts to a lot of them keep them anchored down by too much wordiness and location-fatigue. I love FFVII because, despite its plot-holes and vomit dialog, it's brisk and playable, just like my other favourite Square games that came out around the same time (FFVI, CT, MarioRPG).

I can't really get behind IX's storytelling because it's just filled with so much stuff big and bombastic that it's bursting out of itself. For me, its twists just don't jive, and while it's filled with wonderful set-pieces and a boatload of charm, nothing really has much impact. Despite that I do enjoy the game, my interest plot-wise just plummets once each play-through takes me past the Mist Continent. Once Terra and Oeilvert come around, I'm done. The thing I enjoy in hindsight about FFVII is that it introduces all its themes and players well, and everything progresses from there despite a few JRPG-ish plot-holes and contrivances. There's very little left-field for me to feel like the game has ever gone off the deep end. It get ridiculous and questionable at times, but it all more or less fits (for me, at least) within its own fiction. Things like Time Kompression or Necron or Terra... they almost feel like they're there because huge twists are expected for every game, despite how well those twists actually work with the story being told.

Even as far as party dynamics, none of the later games hold up to 7's, either. The relationships involving Tifa, Aeris and Cloud (or whatever it is they think they see in Cloud) really is well done, I think, despite a few hiccups. Squall and Rinoa don't come close, and neither do Zidane and Dagger or Tidus and Yuna. Those characters' relationships are kind of just there, adding a bit of romantic-comedic flavour to events, but never being genuinely interesting past the will-they-or-won't-they stage. Me, I always thought it was very sad that Aeris liked Cloud because she was subconsciously being reminded of Zack - a character point that does, in the end, become the central point regarding Cloud's neurosis, which, in itself, is nurtured by the otherwise warm-hearted Tifa. I won't say there aren't holes and contrivances in all this at certain points, but this is one of those points where I think Square haven't managed to top FFVII. For all the holes, VII is still more interesting to me than all the newer, more refined FF games that have come out since. To tie this into my first post, I think it's a shame that for all the technological and gameplay advances, Square never tightened up the writing, and never really produced anything as flat-out imaginative as VII with improved technique and pacing.

My first playthrough of every subsequent FF game never captured me as well as my first playthrough of VII, despite the fact that in hindsight we can poke dozens of holes through it.

But this is all subjective, I guess. FF7's silliness and occasional ill-conceived vagueness aside, I still think it hits all the most important notes to be a good, involving story (maybe even the best in the series), especially for when it came out. The setting still grips me, too, and the music is fantastic. For me there's nothing like Midgar, the Great Glacier, or Mt. Nibel in any other game in the series. It's a lot of nostalgia, of course, but the reason I'm getting these nostalgics is because I was so moved by it all in the first place.

Buuuut, I'm going to go out on another limb here and say that there are really only two solid stories in the entire series: VI's and VII's. VI and VII were great SNES and early-PS1 narratives that created fantastic worlds with plots that followed through without any left-field shenanigans. A game like IX, I think, doesn't have a story that matches up with the advancement of its technology. Shinra were pretty moustache-twirling on the villain scale, but Kuja, in a game so much more refined and comfortable with itself as IX, is no better, and kind of a little worse considering at this point the FF series had become much more than derivative anime Crystal-finding quest part 5. For me, the destruction sequences of IX don't even come close to the World of Ruin in VI or the death of Aeris and impending doom of Meteor in VII. It's beautifully rendered, but feels kind of pedestrian if you had been playing and mastering all the FFs on release, waiting with excitement to see how Square would turn everything on its head with the next entry.


AVALANCHE is indeed a terrorist organization and its obvious that the reactors they destroyed killed many innocent lives but the game downplays it and does its best to make them out to be the righteous freedom fighters, partly cause Shin-Ra is presented as an irredeemable evil organization that is basically the world government. Barret's story touches upon his group's sins but only does it once or twice and never goes into depth about it. Barret is always quick to say he was in the wrong which also diminishes the possibilities of exploring this mature theme by the fact that Tifa and Cloud never once in the game address the issue despite both their hands being just as dirty.

Yep. Totally with you on this one. The game (bizarrely) glosses over a lot of stuff like this. FFVII is not a gushing well of social-commentary the way some people think it is - not even smurfing close. In fact, as you say, it's probably detrimental to the whole plot that the game introduces scenarios like this and doesn't really follow through with them. Lots of interpretations have been made that I've read (including the depravity that has been induced on Barret, Tifa, and Cloud that all are too despondent to recognize), but most of them only exist because the game never bothered to put its foot down on certain things. Me, I don't love fiction because of its political or social commentary, whether its games (ha), literature, film, whatever. I like things because they are well-made as narratives or (in the case of games) as playable universes. FF7 certainly would have been enriched had there been some attempt to tie up some of the heavy :bou::bou::bou::bou: that went down at the beginning of the story (smurfing terrorism committed by the PC, for Christ's sake.) JRPGs are nothing if they aren't expert hand-wringers at the mass murder of innocents. It doesn't happen and that's stupid, but I don't necessarily hold it against the game. To be frank, I kind of hold it against Square that they never really tried to mature the series in this way. FF7 was an interesting step but smurf if any of the other games after it took FF7's potential seriousness and tried to make something, you know, actually serious with it. X actually had an intriguing setting for me at first... but we all know how that turned out.


Xenogears

I spoke too soon here. You caught me. I even had written down exceptions in my original post, but took them out before posting. FF7 was not the be-all and end-all of RPGs, for sure. Xenogears, as an example, is another very well made game. I'm mostly just jealous because my favourite and most nostalgic era of gaming is the 2D and very early 3D JRPGs (SNES and early disc-based consoles like PSOne, Saturn, Sega CD for the Lunars) and the 3D-ifying of the PS2-and-on eras have never really sat that well with me.

To provide my definitive answer to the original poster. FF7 was my favourite game back then, but I was always eagerly anticipating the next Square game to blow my mind and make me forget about it. Nothing like that ever really came for me. XII actually came close, but enthralled me in a different way (pure gameplay) than VII did, so, by default, FFVII is still my favourite not because it's the Greatest. Game. Ever. (it ain't), but because it's just so damned memorable.

LowCaloriePie
08-30-2010, 04:37 AM
You either really love it or you really, really hate it.

I really, really think it's okay. Don't hate it, don't love it. It's just kind of there. :)

Jiro
08-30-2010, 02:20 PM
I love it but I'm not a rabid fanboy. I think it was quality and the nostalgia value is great.

The Man
08-30-2010, 05:46 PM
I couldn't be arsed reading all the walls of text right now. Maybe later.

FFVII is a decent game. Not as good as the fanboys claim, but not as bad as some of its detractors claim either. The relentlessness of the fanboys has undoubtedly contributed to many people's dislike of the game, and I have to confess that they've slightly reduced my enjoyment of it as well. Though the compilation has been more responsible for reducing my enjoyment of it, I think.

escobert
08-31-2010, 04:04 AM
I love 7, it's the only FF I really enjoy. also I hate X and I hate kingdom hearts. so noty all of us 7 fanboys like those crappy games :p

black orb
08-31-2010, 04:17 AM
The people who love it played it in 1997 and also like FFX and Kingdom Hearts.
>>> I love FF7 and FF10 but I hate Kingdom Hearts..:luca:

The people who hate VII played the NES and SNES games first and think that VII's anime style ruined the series, aside from IX, which they coincidentally love because it reminds them of the NES and SNES games.
>>> I dont hate FF7, I played the NES SNES games first and I loved Nomura`s FF7 anime style. You are right about FF9 I love that game because it reminds them of the NES and SNES games...:luca:



I still feel like this game is overrated, but I also recognize its standing in the series.
>>> By today standards is probably overrated, but back in 1997 FF7 was the most awesome thing ever. Square has never been able to re-create such an amazing FF game that has shocked the gaming world like FF7 did in 1997..:luca:

Wolf Kanno
09-02-2010, 05:59 AM
Took me awhile to get some time to work on this.


Sheeeit, Wolf. You caught me in a few blanket statements, so I'll try to respond as best I can.

It wouldn't be a fun discussion if we only allowed blanket statements. This isn't meant to be an attack on your views but rather a method to determine value we can agree upon. ;)


VII's progression just felt right to me, and maybe that's because it's basically an M-themed graphical-up SNES game. It goes bonkers at points, but so do all JRPGs. This isn't an excuse for weak storytelling, of course. What I like about VII is that it seems to hit all the story points properly, even if a little stilted. I've never felt entirely comfortable with Square's games post-FFVIII. There are plenty that I love, but I also think that the scripts to a lot of them keep them anchored down by too much wordiness and location-fatigue. I love FFVII because, despite its plot-holes and vomit dialog, it's brisk and playable, just like my other favourite Square games that came out around the same time (FFVI, CT, MarioRPG). I actually feel VII is a game too trapped in throwing out terminology and very wordy dialogue scenes (at least in the second disc beyond) that are so badily hampered by the games poor translation it feels overly complicated despite many of the plot elements being fairly straight forward. IX on the other hand I enjoyed cause I never found its dialogue terribly convulated and peppered with heavy terms until about the time you get to Terra but that is pretty far into the game seeing how its at the very tale end of Disc 3. VII to me, in terms of dialogue was really trying to use all that extra memory to tell a story but I feel every time I play the game its hampered because of it. As though the skill of the writers was not on par with the technology and often I find when reading the dialogue naturally the plot can be confusing. The game borrowed a writing principle made very popular around the time of VII's development which was Neon Genesis Evangelion and that principle was using symbolic terminology as short hand for plot elements. At its best its very avant-garde, at worst its overly pretentious and I feel VII goes back and forth with it depending where you are in the story. I felt it was a great tool for making the player move forward but the answers themselves were not as rich and complex as the symbolic terms used would suggest.

IX just dropped this whole nonsense and I appreciate the game for having a more straight forward plot that doesn't try to garnish itself with too many fancy phrases. If anything it gets extra points by instead using terminology from FF's own mythos.


I can't really get behind IX's storytelling because it's just filled with so much stuff big and bombastic that it's bursting out of itself. For me, its twists just don't jive, and while it's filled with wonderful set-pieces and a boatload of charm, nothing really has much impact. Despite that I do enjoy the game, my interest plot-wise just plummets once each play-through takes me past the Mist Continent.Once Terra and Oeilvert come around, I'm done.I'm sorry to hear that, personally there is only two plot elements that don't work for me in IX but they don't ruin the experience completely for me. Of anything, I feel one of IX's problems is that it doesn't tie up its loose ends very well and this was something I felt was a problem in VII as well because beyond Cloud, Cid, and Tifa, there was no real character growth for the rest of the cast beyond the first Disc.


The thing I enjoy in hindsight about FFVII is that it introduces all its themes and players well, and everything progresses from there despite a few JRPG-ish plot-holes and contrivances. There's very little left-field for me to feel like the game has ever gone off the deep end. It get ridiculous and questionable at times, but it all more or less fits (for me, at least) within its own fiction. Things like Time Kompression or Necron or Terra... they almost feel like they're there because huge twists are expected for every game, despite how well those twists actually work with the story being told. I would say Cloud's double plot twist identity issues were not only a bit left field but poorly stretched out in the plot out for the sake of having another big plot twist. Hell, VII is one of the few games in the series that has a plot twist for another plot twist. First revealing Cloud not to be who he is and then another that says he is who he says he is just with a few important oversights. To me, this felt a bit tacky and definetly left field. I would have actually been happier had Cloud actually been an attempt to make a real clone of Sephiroth.

For me, VII's plot goes completely downhill after Cloud's mental breakdown at the Northern Crater and the game never redeems itself for me after that. I spend the rest of the game hoping it will pick up and it never does. Cloud's past is just badly executed for my taste and once again I would like to point out the logical issue of your party trying to stop Shin-Ra from saving the world, which is one of the main conflicts in Disc 2. It makes no sense and is never offered a satisfactory answer, instead its used as filler so they can stretch out the time before the game throws you the plot twist of a plot twist. The believability of Cloud's past working also depends on so many factors concerning Tifa that it begins to feel far fetched it would have worked out so neatly for the big reveals. Her very presence in the first Disc only being sustained on the writer's hope that the player will keep Tifa in your party so you can see all the extra scenes concerning his fishy past, is a poor way of going about telling a story. It doesn't help that the game requires several MacGuffins to explain most of its plot, which is a bit too many for any story.


Even as far as party dynamics, none of the later games hold up to 7's, either. The relationships involving Tifa, Aeris and Cloud (or whatever it is they think they see in Cloud) really is well done, I think, despite a few hiccups. Squall and Rinoa don't come close, and neither do Zidane and Dagger or Tidus and Yuna. Those characters' relationships are kind of just there, adding a bit of romantic-comedic flavour to events, but never being genuinely interesting past the will-they-or-won't-they stage. Me, I always thought it was very sad that Aeris liked Cloud because she was subconsciously being reminded of Zack - a character point that does, in the end, become the central point regarding Cloud's neurosis, which, in itself, is nurtured by the otherwise warm-hearted Tifa. I won't say there aren't holes and contrivances in all this at certain points, but this is one of those points where I think Square haven't managed to top FFVII.I will agree with you on the love triangle, its very complicated and I liked the fact its a bit more low key than other romances in the series that feel like they need a huge romance subplot. VII's is actually not in your face about the romance like the other games. Aerith teases Cloud about dating him and having feelings and Tifa has her fawning moments but really the game doesn't make it go past a few conversational pieces here and there. Even the date scenes are more of a personal conversation as opposed to a romantic getaway.

As for the rest of the cast, I can't agree about party dynamics. I never liked VII's cast except for Vincent. I don't hate them but I never found any of them interesting. Still, they are better done than some modern games.



For all the holes, VII is still more interesting to me than all the newer, more refined FF games that have come out since. To tie this into my first post, I think it's a shame that for all the technological and gameplay advances, Square never tightened up the writing, and never really produced anything as flat-out imaginative as VII with improved technique and pacing.I agree to a point, as I said, I feel IX did a great job and as I was playing through it recently I kept finding myself blown away by all these great game mechanics and ideas that the game used that should have become mainstays in the RPG genre and yet no one, not even SE has bothered to pick up where IX left off. Whereas I also feel IX took the best concepts from VII and utilized them well as opposed to the middle child in the PS1 set.

Yet I agree that modern RPGs are too busy trying to cast off all the elements that make them who they are so they can still remain relevant in an age of ADHD gaming. The problem here, is that I don't see why the genre feels it needs to completely reinvent itself, what it really needs to do is reinvent how they make them. Instead of trying to push the system to new limits, they should be learning how to make high grade graphics and massive worlds quickly and more cost efficiently. If SE could cut down costs and development time, we could probably go back to having old school (8-bit threw 32-bit) RPGs, that or they need to stop wasting money on making games visually impressive and let them take a slight notch down in favor of more development and money going towards content. I strongly feel this is part of the reason SE doesn't make games like they use to.

That and they are still trying to make another VII. Not a remake, but a game that did what VII did for the company back in the day and sadly lightning doesn't strike twice I'm afraid. I usually feel they learn their lesson but then something like XIII comes along and shows me they are still trying.


My first playthrough of every subsequent FF game never captured me as well as my first playthrough of VII, despite the fact that in hindsight we can poke dozens of holes through it.

But this is all subjective, I guess. FF7's silliness and occasional ill-conceived vagueness aside, I still think it hits all the most important notes to be a good, involving story (maybe even the best in the series), especially for when it came out. The setting still grips me, too, and the music is fantastic. For me there's nothing like Midgar, the Great Glacier, or Mt. Nibel in any other game in the series. It's a lot of nostalgia, of course, but the reason I'm getting these nostalgics is because I was so moved by it all in the first place. I feel this way about a few other games in the series but I do recognize that part of this is also just nostalgia, still it had to blow your mind the first time to leave that kind of impression. :D

To me, VII didn't do all that, it did press some buttons but I felt that VII promised more than it could provide and this is not simply just the hype surrounding the game, I mean this within the story itself. The resolution was not as neat or rewarding for me as the game was trying to lead me to believe. Its why VII will always be one of the more disappointing entries for me. There was a time during the first disc I was on the wagon with the rest of the crowd about how good the game was but as I've stated, the second disc and beyond was rather disappointing for me and I felt the games quality fell apart.


Buuuut, I'm going to go out on another limb here and say that there are really only two solid stories in the entire series: VI's and VII's. VI and VII were great SNES and early-PS1 narratives that created fantastic worlds with plots that followed through without any left-field shenanigans. A game like IX, I think, doesn't have a story that matches up with the advancement of its technology. Shinra were pretty moustache-twirling on the villain scale, but Kuja, in a game so much more refined and comfortable with itself as IX, is no better, and kind of a little worse considering at this point the FF series had become much more than derivative anime Crystal-finding quest part 5. For me, the destruction sequences of IX don't even come close to the World of Ruin in VI or the death of Aeris and impending doom of Meteor in VII. It's beautifully rendered, but feels kind of pedestrian if you had been playing and mastering all the FFs on release, waiting with excitement to see how Square would turn everything on its head with the next entry.I feel Kuja is a better villain for many reasons, simply because he combines the best elements of all the best villains in the series and I felt he did it well. Sure he's still a selfish evil jerk but he's a well thought out evil jerk, and this is where I stand on the idea of "I R EVIL" villains, I don't mind them at all, sometimes the story needs an inconceivable evil, other times the story requires a more complex villain that falls into moral ambiguity. IX with its throwbacks needed a traditional evil villain but he was well written and not just some generic evil monster like say... Necron was. That is what I want, a villain to fit the role. Don't pull a XIII and present a philosophical drama and then introduce Mr. "I R EVIL" halfway through and if you do, he should be more than just a two dimensional being like XIII's villains were. I love complex villains but they need to fit the heroes and for me, Kuja was fitting for the cast, an over the top narcissus, struggling to be free from his master and eventually coming to grips with his own mortality and what life is. He's not as sympathetic as Xande but his story was interesting and his character was fun to watch.

Still, I feel IX has its wonderful moments, Vivi's battle with Black Waltz 3, his encounter with the Black Mages and the scene about "stopping", the parties battle with Beatrix in Burmecia, Kuja attacking Alexander (which leads into my favorite FMV in the series of Bahamut vs. Alexander) and Kuja releasing Trance and leveling Terra. The game is filled with memorable moments and I sorta feel like IX pretty much did what VII was suppose to.


Yep. Totally with you on this one. The game (bizarrely) glosses over a lot of stuff like this. FFVII is not a gushing well of social-commentary the way some people think it is - not even smurfing close. In fact, as you say, it's probably detrimental to the whole plot that the game introduces scenarios like this and doesn't really follow through with them. Lots of interpretations have been made that I've read (including the depravity that has been induced on Barret, Tifa, and Cloud that all are too despondent to recognize), but most of them only exist because the game never bothered to put its foot down on certain things. Me, I don't love fiction because of its political or social commentary, whether its games (ha), literature, film, whatever. I like things because they are well-made as narratives or (in the case of games) as playable universes. FF7 certainly would have been enriched had there been some attempt to tie up some of the heavy :bou::bou::bou::bou: that went down at the beginning of the story (smurfing terrorism committed by the PC, for Christ's sake.) JRPGs are nothing if they aren't expert hand-wringers at the mass murder of innocents. It doesn't happen and that's stupid, but I don't necessarily hold it against the game. To be frank, I kind of hold it against Square that they never really tried to mature the series in this way. FF7 was an interesting step but smurf if any of the other games after it took FF7's potential seriousness and tried to make something, you know, actually serious with it. X actually had an intriguing setting for me at first... but we all know how that turned out.This is a problem I have with the series as a whole. VIII pulls a similar thing by introducing some very morally questionable elements in the beginning and never goes with them besides using them as set pieces. Yet, once again, I feel IX goes a little bit farther in terms of Vivi who is literally an artificial being trying to find meaning in a world that he is not suppose to exist in. As usual, I feel Square drops it the story and it doesn't ever get the satisfying end it deserved but I'm just beginning to think SE will never do a truly sophisticated game aimed at adults. I read in an interview once, Kitase said that FF is usually made for a younger audience in mind and that has worked for the series, so it is very unlikely the series will ever grow past the maturity level of Teens and actually explore more sophisticated and philosophical themes I'm afraid. That's why I love Xenogears and FFTactics.



XenogearsI spoke too soon here. You caught me. I even had written down exceptions in my original post, but took them out before posting. FF7 was not the be-all and end-all of RPGs, for sure. Xenogears, as an example, is another very well made game. I'm mostly just jealous because my favourite and most nostalgic era of gaming is the 2D and very early 3D JRPGs (SNES and early disc-based consoles like PSOne, Saturn, Sega CD for the Lunars) and the 3D-ifying of the PS2-and-on eras have never really sat that well with me. I actually agree, though there have been some great RPGs released in the last decade, I've been finding that I buy fewer and fewer original RPGs with each passing year. I feel the genre has sorta stagnated in the PS2 era. There have been notable exceptions but nothing has had the real impact on me like some of those games in the 16-bit and 32 bit era did. Maybe its because I'm old now and more difficult to impress. :eep:

LowCaloriePie
09-02-2010, 12:19 PM
That and they are still trying to make another VII. Not a remake, but a game that did what VII did for the company back in the day and sadly lightning doesn't strike twice I'm afraid. I usually feel they learn their lesson but then something like XIII comes along and shows me they are still trying.



Was that pun intended, sir? ;)

Flying Arrow
09-02-2010, 05:26 PM
using symbolic terminology as short hand for plot elements. At its best its very avant-garde, at worst its overly pretentious and I feel VII goes back and forth with it depending where you are in the story. I felt it was a great tool for making the player move forward but the answers themselves were not as rich and complex as the symbolic terms used would suggest.

Gonna have to ask you to explain yourself on this one. Examples?


If anything it gets extra points by instead using terminology from FF's own mythos.

I love the in-references. One of the things I loved about XII was the naming scheme for the imperial fleet ships. Not sure why, but I get a kick out of it, especially when the names are used fittingly (Dreadnought Leviathan or Air Fortress Bahamut). It makes it feel very tied into the tradition of FF while still doing things differently. For the same reason, I loved XIII at first for its use of the Esper naming scheme for all the major "functions" of Cocoon.


I would say Cloud's double plot twist identity issues were not only a bit left field but poorly stretched out in the plot out for the sake of having another big plot twist. Hell, VII is one of the few games in the series that has a plot twist for another plot twist. First revealing Cloud not to be who he is and then another that says he is who he says he is just with a few important oversights. To me, this felt a bit tacky and definetly left field. I would have actually been happier had Cloud actually been an attempt to make a real clone of Sephiroth.

My good man, here will we just have to agree to disagree.


I will agree with you on the love triangle, its very complicated and I liked the fact its a bit more low key than other romances in the series that feel like they need a huge romance subplot. VII's is actually not in your face about the romance like the other games. Aerith teases Cloud about dating him and having feelings and Tifa has her fawning moments but really the game doesn't make it go past a few conversational pieces here and there. Even the date scenes are more of a personal conversation as opposed to a romantic getaway.

I really like how Aeris is characterized as just a young girl who likes a guy. It's refreshing. Sure, the plot involves her in a Big Purpose, but up until the end (of her, that is) she seems more interested in stealing Cloud away from Tifa. Another touch I liked was how well Tifa and Aeris got along, despite being rivals. If this detail wasn't handled properly, it might have drastically changed the tone of the game.


I usually feel they learn their lesson but then something like XIII comes along and shows me they are still trying.

XIII couldn't have gotten everything more wrong if it tried. Not that I see any kind of merit in SE trying to copy VII, but XIII really got everything... wrong. It's like they took the most superficial elements of the other games and thought that alone they would make a good Final Fantasy.


the second disc and beyond was rather disappointing for me and I felt the games quality fell apart.

I actually really enjoy the second disc. But who knows. That might be because I've played through the first disc way more times than the second (corrupted memory cards and general busyness).


Kitase said that FF is usually made for a younger audience in mind

At first, yeah, because games were generally only for kids. With VI and VII (hell, even with IV), the series showed attempts as being more than 'just for kids.' VIII looked like it was taking a huge leap in the mature-themed direction, but ultimately they chickened out. I'm even of the belief that VIII was originally intended to be vastly different than it turned out. I bet at some point someone stopped everything and said, 'This is too radical. We need to take it back to basics a bit' - hence monsters on the moon and time compression and all the actual character intrigue being thrown to the side. I'm not sure why Square stopped trying with the mature thing. It's probably just easier for them, in the end.


Maybe its because I'm old now and more difficult to impress.

Maybe this is true for me, too. But I also get blown away by things that are good, still. If a company came around and really put their effort and care into making an intriguing, engaging RPG again, I'm certain I'd fawn over it. There were a few great RPGs in the PS2 era. My personal favourites are DQVIII and FFXII. Both very good games, but thinking back, I enjoy them for completely different reasons than why I enjoyed the PSOne era of role-playing. XII was great in the way that V is great - solid and fun gameplay. DQVIII I loved because, despite being an excellent game, I saw it as basically what I'd been hoping for for years as a young kid who loved NES/SNES/Genesis adventure games. It's just a perfect 3D rendition of the atmosphere and feel of those old top-down RPGs. Thing is, though, neither game captured my attention because of their stories, which is the reason I was so into RPGs during the SNES/PSOne days. Maybe I'm getting too old to appreciate them, but I think it's more the fact that RPG story-telling was fresher and more enjoyable before everything (action games, FPSs, etc) got all fancy-shmancy with their own stories. Aside from a few exceptions, most RPG stories these days are pretty damned bland and been-there-done-that. Also, voice acting be damned!


Vivi

might be the best character in the whole series. As much as I love Cloud and Aeris, Vivi is just awesome and easily the best thing to come out of IX. If it weren't a pre-requisite for FFs by that point to have a male and female lead get together, I'd say Vivi should have been the main character. What better way to pay homage to the whole series than with a main character who is basically the series' most iconic image. Well, maybe a chocobo side-kick... How awesome would it have been for FFIX to be a simple four-and-only-four-party-member game starring Vivi, a chocobo, a runaway princess (Garnet) and Steiner (if only to keep referring to Vivi as 'Master'). Vivi would obviously be the black mage, Garnet would be the healer/supporter in a white robe and hood, Steiner a knight, and the chocobo would be a mix of unarmed and Blue Mage and would provide the player with tips and advice along the adventure using only a series of Warks and Kweehhs that only Vivi can understand for some reason (the Chewbacca to Vivi's Han Solo, if you will). "What's that, Boko? I should use my fire spell on this ice wall?"

But seriously, Vivi rules. I'm just about wrapping up my playthrough of VII. Usually when I play one FF game, I feel compelled to continue the series from that point. I'm kind of interested in playing through VIII... but I'm not sure how long that will last once I get into the thick of it. I might just skip to IX because it's looking pretty damned tempting at the moment.

MJN SEIFER
09-03-2010, 05:45 PM
Why is this game so divided amongst FF fans? You either really love it or you really, really hate it. The people who love it played it in 1997 and also like FFX and Kingdom Hearts. The people who hate VII played the NES and SNES games first and think that VII's anime style ruined the series, aside from IX, which they coincidentally love because it reminds them of the NES and SNES games.

You can't really judge from what "the people you have heard say" - I admittidly started with VII, but I feel it would still be my favorite even if I had played from the begining because it has what I look for in a game, and a story. All FFs up to IX (sans III, which I never really got to play in any shape or form) are on the top tier positions of my list of great games, and I always get a great feeling playing them, but VII and VIII go that extra mile for me. X is hit and miss for me.

Further more, not all FF fan stereotypes are true, those who are fans of old FFs do not necersarily hate VII, even if that is the general opinon. I saw another website state that all fans of VII hate VIII and vice verca - I of course am proof that, that is not true.


VII's anime style

Funny, I'm a fan of both anime, and FFVII - yet I can't find any similarity between the two...




Some people also disliked the Materia system and how most of the characters were very similar in terms of stats... but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing,

Neither do I, although this is kind of an exageration, as the VII characters aren't really as "blank states" as people believe - certain characters tend to gain skills in certain areas for different stats better than others (e.g. Vincent seams to gain magic stats before others) so, there you go.



The translation and dialogue is also pretty dog:bou::bou::bou::bou:,

Again an exgeration in my book, the translation clearly had its flaws, and a lot of stuff got its name changed (hence seiferalmasy2's project), also it is clear to all observers that they had one guy doing the battles, one guy doing the items, and one guy doing the dialogue, and they never spoke to each other once because there are a few inconsisticies (Chocobo Greens suffering the most) despite it's flaws, it does pretty well - you can still understand what's happening and you don't miss out on too much. It's not like IV where it's all over the place, or VI where the scene is drastically changed at times (Returners convincing Narshe/Celes "jumping for fun") I love these games, but I am aware of their flaws, as I am aware of VII's


Other than that, I think Square were at the top of their act with the FF series at VII. As far as plot goes, they haven't told a story as well in any game since.

Have to dissagree here, as I found the storylines in VIII and IX to be phenomenal. X's storyline was pretty good aswell, but mared by unnecersary voice acting, which to me made the characters "flatter" than their text speach couter parts to me, which was clearly the oposite of what they intended, but ignoring that the story was ok, but not as good as the others for me.


But also, and more obviously, there are people who backlash against it because of internet hype - a stupid reason to dislike something.

allowing any hype to change your opinion is stupid - you either blindly follow the crowed, or force yourself to hate something, because you don't want to appear like the former. There are still people like me, who just stay true to their opinion, and like something no matter how hyped it is, or how hated it is.

Bottom line is, I love VII, always have, always will. But each to their own.

Wolf Kanno
09-06-2010, 06:24 AM
That and they are still trying to make another VII. Not a remake, but a game that did what VII did for the company back in the day and sadly lightning doesn't strike twice I'm afraid. I usually feel they learn their lesson but then something like XIII comes along and shows me they are still trying.



Was that pun intended, sir? ;)

No, I actually didn't mean too. :D


Gonna have to ask you to explain yourself on this one. Examples?

I'm speaking about the use of symbolic terms like: Promised Land, SOLDIER, Sephiroth Clones, Reunion, and The Ancients though the last one is an RPG cliche older than dirt and practically an FF tradition in its own right. The terms are used to give the game an air of its own mythology but I feel the actual explanation to how they really work in the game are not nearly as fitting as their romantic terminology but this is simply my own opinion. Some of it works really well like Reunion which will spark a myriad of thoughts and feelings to anyone whose played the game but Promised Land which borrows from real religious terminology and is sadly just as boring in relation, instead its just another way of pointing out the hippie environmental/ Gaia theory nonsense. We get it, its the Planet and the Lifestream, you didn't need to give is a fancy nickname. :roll2


I love the in-references. One of the things I loved about XII was the naming scheme for the imperial fleet ships. Not sure why, but I get a kick out of it, especially when the names are used fittingly (Dreadnought Leviathan or Air Fortress Bahamut). It makes it feel very tied into the tradition of FF while still doing things differently. For the same reason, I loved XIII at first for its use of the Esper naming scheme for all the major "functions" of Cocoon.

I enjoy this too, especially in IX and XII. The mark hunts were incredible clever in their referencing most of FFs famous bosses and monsters in the series history, just like reading the propositions in FFTactics awarded the player with references to Falgabird, Setzer's Blackjack, and the "Man in the Black Cape".


My good man, here will we just have to agree to disagree.
That we will, I never said it wasn't clever and original. I just feel its overly convulated for the sake of being convulated and in hindsight I felt they were trying too hard to drag it out.


I really like how Aeris is characterized as just a young girl who likes a guy. It's refreshing. Sure, the plot involves her in a Big Purpose, but up until the end (of her, that is) she seems more interested in stealing Cloud away from Tifa. Another touch I liked was how well Tifa and Aeris got along, despite being rivals. If this detail wasn't handled properly, it might have drastically changed the tone of the game.

It would feel like the later entries that feel it is necessary to throw a love story in the plot and keep it as a major focus of the story even though it really adds nothing except another element to keep track of for the sake of itself. I usually like love stories but I really don't care for many of them in the FF series.



XIII couldn't have gotten everything more wrong if it tried. Not that I see any kind of merit in SE trying to copy VII, but XIII really got everything... wrong. It's like they took the most superficial elements of the other games and thought that alone they would make a good Final Fantasy.

I sometimes feel they either surveyed a 100 people and asked them what their favorite elements were and just went with that and ignored and ouright didn't even ask them what they felt about the elements they didn't list; or this was a case where the team got bad feedback about the towns and mini-games from their previous entry the team worked on (FFX) and just decided to remove them cause they took the criticism as meaning players didn't want them as oppose to what they meant which was they want them done right...


I actually really enjoy the second disc. But who knows. That might be because I've played through the first disc way more times than the second (corrupted memory cards and general busyness).

I have that issue with DDR files... though my third disc of VIII had a scratch that prevented me from every going to the space station for the better part of a decade, thank god I keep my previous playthroughs intact.


At first, yeah, because games were generally only for kids. With VI and VII (hell, even with IV), the series showed attempts as being more than 'just for kids.' VIII looked like it was taking a huge leap in the mature-themed direction, but ultimately they chickened out. I'm even of the belief that VIII was originally intended to be vastly different than it turned out. I bet at some point someone stopped everything and said, 'This is too radical. We need to take it back to basics a bit' - hence monsters on the moon and time compression and all the actual character intrigue being thrown to the side. I'm not sure why Square stopped trying with the mature thing. It's probably just easier for them, in the end.

Actually, Kitase said they have no real intention of putting mature themes in the games just because the fanbase is old, the series is still be targeted towards teens to 20 somethings. To quote him...


“I actually think that it’s a very natural thing for players to grow out of the Final Fantasy series,” he answers. “In terms of the age group we target with each new game, it remains the teens to 20-somethings. That said, you’re right in saying that some of our staff have been working on the series for many years. They are having new experiences and growing and they inevitably do bring those new ideas and perspectives to their work. In Final Fantasy XIII, for example, we have a greater spread of older characters in the story than we have had in the past. Satzu is older, has a family and is not really the kind of character one would normally encounter or play as in the series. But, that said, I think it’s better that we keep the focus on the young generation rather than ageing the series’ appeal. If players choose to stick around and continue playing the games as they grow older then that’s great, but hopefully new generations will find the appeal, grow up with the series and then pass that down to the next generation as they themselves grow older”.

Source: Final Fantasy XIII: The Final Countdown | Edge Magazine (http://www.next-gen.biz/features/final-fantasy-xiii-the-final-countdown?page=0%2C4)

I would also argue the early entries had their fare share of dark themes and maturity to them. As the technology has advanced, its just become easier to express in the games. Still, I wish the series itself would finally just put down the kiddie gloves. X, XII, and XIII could have been so much deeper had they actually just tried to steer away from the PG-13 rating the creators gave them. XIII alone had an excellent premise for a psychological drama centered around morality and the individual versus the majority. Instead it has two deus ex machinas and a rather happy ending with no real point to the story. :mad2:


Maybe this is true for me, too. But I also get blown away by things that are good, still. If a company came around and really put their effort and care into making an intriguing, engaging RPG again, I'm certain I'd fawn over it. There were a few great RPGs in the PS2 era. My personal favourites are DQVIII and FFXII. Both very good games, but thinking back, I enjoy them for completely different reasons than why I enjoyed the PSOne era of role-playing. XII was great in the way that V is great - solid and fun gameplay. DQVIII I loved because, despite being an excellent game, I saw it as basically what I'd been hoping for for years as a young kid who loved NES/SNES/Genesis adventure games. It's just a perfect 3D rendition of the atmosphere and feel of those old top-down RPGs. Thing is, though, neither game captured my attention because of their stories, which is the reason I was so into RPGs during the SNES/PSOne days. Maybe I'm getting too old to appreciate them, but I think it's more the fact that RPG story-telling was fresher and more enjoyable before everything (action games, FPSs, etc) got all fancy-shmancy with their own stories. Aside from a few exceptions, most RPG stories these days are pretty damned bland and been-there-done-that. Also, voice acting be damned!

There have been some notable great RPGs in the last 10 years but I really feel they are very few and far between, I haven't been too impressed with many of the RPGs of this generation, there are some notable entries but I haven't played a game that felt like a "complete package" since P3/P4, mostly titles with some cool ideas with blah stories and mediocre battle systems. I think its why I took to Mega Ten, cause the series of series, usually do go there. I feel it has engaged me with moral and philosophical thought while also placating my need for a good well structured story and to top it off, most of the series has a good battle system. While playing it, I find myself asking the same questions I asked 10 or 15 years ago with Square RPGs which was simply "Why don't other people make games like these?". I feel other gaming genres have caught up to the RPG and lately the genre itself is having an identity crisis where its trying out new things or going back to basics, but bottom line, its trying to find itself an identity. Its no longer the gaming genre that tells a story like it was in the past. This doesn't mean I'm completely against the genre. I've been finding myself really intrigued with what Xenoblade and The Last Story are doing cause I feel both games actually took some of the better elements from XII. I'm really intrigued and hoping for a worldwide release for both titles.




Vivimight be the best character in the whole series. As much as I love Cloud and Aeris, Vivi is just awesome and easily the best thing to come out of IX. If it weren't a pre-requisite for FFs by that point to have a male and female lead get together, I'd say Vivi should have been the main character. What better way to pay homage to the whole series than with a main character who is basically the series' most iconic image. Well, maybe a chocobo side-kick... How awesome would it have been for FFIX to be a simple four-and-only-four-party-member game starring Vivi, a chocobo, a runaway princess (Garnet) and Steiner (if only to keep referring to Vivi as 'Master'). Vivi would obviously be the black mage, Garnet would be the healer/supporter in a white robe and hood, Steiner a knight, and the chocobo would be a mix of unarmed and Blue Mage and would provide the player with tips and advice along the adventure using only a series of Warks and Kweehhs that only Vivi can understand for some reason (the Chewbacca to Vivi's Han Solo, if you will). "What's that, Boko? I should use my fire spell on this ice wall?"

Word


But seriously, Vivi rules. I'm just about wrapping up my playthrough of VII. Usually when I play one FF game, I feel compelled to continue the series from that point. I'm kind of interested in playing through VIII... but I'm not sure how long that will last once I get into the thick of it. I might just skip to IX because it's looking pretty damned tempting at the moment.

I just got an 8GB memory stick for my PSP an acquired VII-IX which are now all neatly on one memory stick for multiple portable fun. I still want to finish Xenogears and I'm probably going to lose time playing through Metroid: The other M and Birth By Sleep. Still, it will be nice to play the later entries on the go.

Mirage
09-06-2010, 07:59 AM
The people who hate VII played the NES and SNES games first and think that VII's anime style ruined the series

Huh what? How exactly did FF7's "anime style" ruin the series when almost none of the games after FF7 are in "anime style"? Are you trolling?

Wolfen
09-30-2010, 04:33 PM
When I say anime-style, I mean the fact that FF started to become more of a JRPG after the seventh installment.

Flying Arrow
09-30-2010, 04:53 PM
When I say anime-style, I mean the fact that FF started to become more of a JRPG after the seventh installment.

Calling you out here. You realize that the term 'JRPG' isn't the synonym for 'cooties' that the Mass Effect/Fallout crowd has deemed it, right? And that it just refers to a specific type of combat and gameplay?

Jessweeee♪
09-30-2010, 07:12 PM
Tomatoes are enjoyable. Potatoes are enjoyable. Some people only like one of the two, some like both, some like neither. If someone decides to stop selling tomatoes and start selling potatoes, a few of their customers will stop buying, and some new ones will be like "Yeah. Yeah I like potatoes. Gimme those."

Wolfen
09-30-2010, 08:42 PM
Calling you out here. You realize that the term 'JRPG' isn't the synonym for 'cooties' that the Mass Effect/Fallout crowd has deemed it, right? And that it just refers to a specific type of combat and gameplay? I'm not dissing JRPG's. Sorry if my posts made it seem that way.

Mirage
10-02-2010, 01:47 PM
So what exactly is it you're trying to say?

The anime style (which to you means JRPG(?)) ruined the series, but then you say you're not dissing JRPG?

Sounds to me like you either don't have a well thought through opinion, or that you're trying to save face because people didn't agree with your opinion.

Rase
10-03-2010, 03:08 AM
Though he has since admitted that it was a bunch of bile to rile up fanboys, I actually find this article (http://www.toastyfrog.com/toastywiki/index.php/Games/FinalFantasyVII) by Jeremy Parish to be humorous and accurate in some ways.

Also, how the hell did you guys find time to write your dissertations on FFVII?

Jibril
10-03-2010, 05:04 AM
ITT: Final Fantasies before VII were not anime-inspired

SaveOurSeeker
10-03-2010, 06:05 AM
Are FF after 7 inspired by anime, I don't know as I don't watch anime so I guess no. I don't mind FF7 I just find it to be dull and boring. Whenever I tried playing the whole getting out of Midgar thing felt like an eternity. The 1 time I completed it I still couldn't shake the feeling of meh:|. I think it's Cloud and Sephiroth I don't know there no colour or vibrancy imo. I did like the Turks, Barret, red 13 Cid they were the good charecters.

Rase
10-03-2010, 08:09 AM
More FF's need to be based on this kind (http://sb5k.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/gurren_lagann.jpg) of anime.

MJN SEIFER
10-03-2010, 03:46 PM
Once again, I am a fan of Anime, and I don't think FFVII looks like Anime at all.

Wolf Kanno
10-03-2010, 07:13 PM
It does look like anime mostly due to the original character designs and weird physics of its world (Cloud holding a sword nearly his own size is a good indicator as that is a visual cue taken from anime) not to mention its the most Japanese entry in the series with the exception of FFX (technically its more Okinawa but we'll skip the history lesson) with all of the cultural and visual clues. There are stores in Junon that are similar to how Japanese stores are run with ladies the greet you. Tons of English and foreign words thrown around cause they look cool and have no real meaning, the HoneyBee Inn is a Love Hotel, even the Turks take visual cues and characteristics of the Yakuza. Midgard and Junon are both very modern Japanese in appearance and and how they work. The anime designs don't help and the whole situation of the Lifestream is taken from Shinto/Buddhist beliefs as opposed to the New Age versions seen in the West.

Now to be fair to VII, its not the only "anime" FF. In truth I feel many of the early entries had anime elements as well they are just not as pronounced due to technology limitations. VI especially with many of its emotional portrayls by the sprites is taken from anime.

In terms of JRPG, the first traditional JRPG in the FF series would probably be FFII but IV to me is more of the first successful entry that made the idea stick. JRPGs are not simply anime inspired games, if its made in Japan its going to have an anime element somewhere cause that's just the culture. Sorta like how Western fantasy and Sci-Fi can't escape using classic conventions from LotR, Star Trek, and Star Wars in some form. What really makes a game a JRPG is that the game has a pre-set cast of characters and is very story driven with a linear road to completion. It can have open ended elements but for the most part, a JRPG tells a story whereas a WRPG is more about empowering the player and letting them write their character a story by partaking in a myriad of mini-stories set in the world. That, to my knowledge is what a JRPG is. It has nothing to do with visual design or inspiration though it can be argued that the genre has fully embraced anime and is now trying to recreate themselves almost as a playable anime series.

As for the dissertation on VII, I've been having this discussion for 13 years now, the only thing that has changed is my ability to explain it. ;)

Wolfen
10-03-2010, 07:59 PM
The anime style (which to you means JRPG(?)) ruined the series, but then you say you're not dissing JRPG?I said that the people who hate VII think that the anime style ruined the series.

I don't hate VII. I just said it became more and more anime inspired is all.

Tarquin
10-04-2010, 12:31 AM
Wow, lots of text walls

I've done all this before - but I am also going to buck your pigeon holes

I love FFVII, and the first I played was VI and I too love that - yet I have no time for FFX, and have subsequently played the first five (except 3 - which I'm working on getting round to) and I particularly enjoy IV, may even be my favourite

If I'm honest I think the fanboys wind a lot of people up - it's possible VII is the most liked game in terms of numbers, and may not have that many detractors proportionally, but the sheer fact that so many people drone on about it even now probably really annoys those who don't enjoy it - so we have a hell of a lot less whingeing about VIII, despite, I would guess, a lot more people disliking it

Personally I think it's success was down to pitch perfect timing at the beginning of the PS era introducing the mainstream to story-telling within games

that, and cross-dressing

BG-57
10-09-2010, 03:08 PM
I actually bought a PSX two years in advance just to play FFVII when it first came out. I had to make due with Beyond the Beyond. :p I was certainly wowed by its graphics and materia system, having played FFIV and FFVI on SNES. Even at the time I was puzzled at times by the translation (clones, why don't they look alike then?), but I found it enjoyable.

While there have always been those that dislike FFVII, it seems to me that FFVIII and FFX-2 are much more polarizing games.

Check out Spoony's rant on FFVII, although its NFSW. He focuses mainly on the fandom though.

Kenshin IV
10-11-2010, 02:15 AM
The game's "fandom" has always been an idiotic reason to hate the game itself. Though, I am well aware that many, many people do for just that reason.

Vyk
10-11-2010, 09:14 PM
Hating something due to hype and fandom isn't always a conscious choice. Sometimes the way people behave in regards to a game or the things they say, and probably over-say, can ruin your perspective and experience on a subconscious level. Happens to me all the time. And I tend to avoid games, movies, anime series, and whatnot for extended periods of time, years sometimes, due to hype. I -still- haven't watched Evangelion because of how people praised it to be the work of god or some crap. Fortunately I got to FF7 and Xenogears before the fans started salivating and got to enjoy those games for what they were

And for the record, I played all the american released Final Fantasies in order. And I hate X and Kingdom Hearts. And 6 and 7 are my favorites. And I'm not a rabid fanboy. So I guess I break that generalization. But I'm a hard person to stereotype anyway. I also didn't really care for 9, at all. It was boring slow and a chore to slog through for me. The characters barely caught my interest in the slightest. Its hard to enjoy a story involving characters and plot points you don't care about

Now that I realize that FF purposely aims at younger audiences and refuses to embrace the wonder of telling a mature and gripping storyline, its no longer a mystery why I can't and haven't enjoyed a FF since 7. And why I loved Xenogears so much. Unfortunately I couldn't make it through FFT. Mature and gripping as the story may have been. Its the most complex and convoluted tactical RPG I've ever played. And I got tired of trying to memorize things. And the difficulty sky-rockets way to rapidly in some places for my taste. I loathe grinding in any RPG. But I'm used to TRPGs having a standard pace where you should only have to go from battle to battle. Not go back and fight one battle ten times to be able to survive the next battle. So its purely a gameplay mechanic disagreement. No real hatred for the ideas they tried to attempt for the game itself

Elskidor
10-18-2010, 09:30 PM
FF7 was the third title in the series I played, and I enjoyed it at the time but I have never understood the fanatics. I replayed it a couple more times, and each time it's mediocre story and easy game play made me wonder "Why does this game have such a hype?" I got it on Christmas day of 1997 and had beaten it before 1998. Waaay too easy for me to enjoy enough to hold it as high as some do on the scale of best Final Fantasy titles. I only like a few of the characters and the main two are smacked with the emo stick. The Turks are awesome though!

I did begin with SNES, but I'm not really fanatic crazy about FF9, or hate Kingdom Hearts/FFX. My top favorites of the series would probably be 4, 6, (FFTactics if it counts) and 12. But it's been about 10 years, so I may replay though a lot of the games to see if my opinion has changed any.

Alive-Cat
10-19-2010, 05:08 PM
The reason why I love it and why it's my favourite is just pure nostalgia. In '97 I was five years old - so I didn't play it then, although my older brothers did. I think I began playing their old copy of it in '99 or 2000 at the age of roughly eight. I just loved the story straight away, even with its little problems. I discovered VIII a little while later. I was so bad at them it took me years to complete them because I kept having to start again. By the end I was pretty good though. I never went out when I was young so I spent so much time of my life basically just playing Final Fantasy VII and VIII.
Yeah, I think if I had played other games in the series and spent that much time on them, they would be my favourites instead. I just get a good feeling of good times when I was young from FFVII and VIII. Good stories as well, I think.

MJN SEIFER
10-19-2010, 09:19 PM
It does look like anime mostly due to the original character designs and weird physics of its world (Cloud holding a sword nearly his own size is a good indicator as that is a visual cue taken from anime) not to mention its the most Japanese entry in the series with the exception of FFX (technically its more Okinawa but we'll skip the history lesson) with all of the cultural and visual clues. There are stores in Junon that are similar to how Japanese stores are run with ladies the greet you. Tons of English and foreign words thrown around cause they look cool and have no real meaning, the HoneyBee Inn is a Love Hotel, even the Turks take visual cues and characteristics of the Yakuza. Midgard and Junon are both very modern Japanese in appearance and and how they work. The anime designs don't help and the whole situation of the Lifestream is taken from Shinto/Buddhist beliefs as opposed to the New Age versions seen in the West.


I can only think of one anime that has a massive sword - and that came out after FFVII. Furthermore the massive sword trope (I'd assume it's a trope anyway) has gone on for ages, mostly in Japan at times, but it doesn't begin and end in anime. I'm sorry to argue, but I don't feel the characters look too anime, some do but most don't at least not to me, but then I'm very particular about the anime I watch, and most of the ones I watch don't have the usual "stereotypes" of anime. FFVIII had a slight Japanese feel aswell, due to the battle system, and the SeeDs, as well as the use of cards in battle. Basically FFs are in their own world, but they take insperation from real things, and I thought the Japanese based stuff in VII and VIII did really well, as I am interested in that sort of thing anyway, I still don't think they had the right texture to be concidered anime.


Fortunately I got to FF7 before the fans started salivating and got to enjoy those games for what they were

Same here, moron less. I dunno if FFVII was hyped much when I wanted it (I had never read any reviews of it), I just read a walkthrough and I just thought this game sounds really interesting, and I kept trying to visulize it, but I just had to buy it, and I love it. Always will.


Now that I realize that FF purposely aims at younger audiences and refuses to embrace the wonder of telling a mature and gripping storyline, its no longer a mystery why I can't and haven't enjoyed a FF since 7.

I dunno if that's actually the case with Square, but if it is; simply being aimed at younger audiences does not automatically mean that it is imposible to have "gripping" storylines - many of the most compelling storylines I've found were in children's films, hence why I look for more compelling storylines in what I watch/play now. Furthermore, I always found most of the FF games I've played to have great storylines (even X, for all the times I find faults with the actual game), but my favorites are FFVII and FFVIII, and I don't think it's because I played them first, because I still like them - I always look at things in detail, and I remember how I view things, and FFVII and FFVIII have most of what I look for in video games.

When the time comes, they will be judged fairly - I will not pay any attention to hype, It's just my view on the matter, I hope it can be looked at. But it will be a while.

Wolf Kanno
10-22-2010, 07:54 PM
Let me try to explain this better cause. The point of the big sword trope is actually about a visual representation of strength. By that, I mean a character who looks small and frail wielding objects that far too great for their physical appearance would say they should be able to carry.

As for the big sword trope or just the monstrous strength trope, Dragon Ball/Dragon Ball Z, Yu Yu Hakusho, Fist of the North Star, and Ranma 1/2 to name a few are series that employ this trope or something similar and existed before VII since most of them are from the 80's and early 90s.


[QUOTE]I'm sorry to argue, but I don't feel the characters look too anime, some do but most don't at least not to me, but then I'm very particular about the anime I watch, and most of the ones I watch don't have the usual "stereotypes" of anime.

Well there is the obvious anime influence...

33785 compared to 33786

I feel there are obvious similarities between these two.

33787 vs. 33788

There is more shadowing in Nomura's designs but he holds true to the iconic anime styles of lean muscle builds and feminine features for guys as well proportioned cureves and round anime eyes for girls.

He's obviously been drawing doujinshi before working for Square and I feel from his visual cues, he definetly was a big fan of Akira Toriyama's work but then again, everyone in Japan loves the guy.

His art style feels like a cross of Toriyama's style and Nubuhiro Watsuki even though Watsuki was making his signature series (Rurouni Kenshin) around the same time Nomura was working on VII and VIII.



FFVIII had a slight Japanese feel aswell, due to the battle system, and the SeeDs, as well as the use of cards in battle. Basically FFs are in their own world, but they take insperation from real things, and I thought the Japanese based stuff in VII and VIII did really well, as I am interested in that sort of thing anyway, I still don't think they had the right texture to be concidered anime.

Different thoughts and different taste I guess, nothing wrong with that though. :D



I dunno if that's actually the case with Square, but if it is; simply being aimed at younger audiences does not automatically mean that it is impossible to have "gripping" storylines - many of the most compelling storylines I've found were in children's films, hence why I look for more compelling storylines in what I watch/play now.

He's referring to an article I posted (http://www.next-gen.biz/features/final-fantasy-xiii-the-final-countdown?page=0%2C4) where Kitase said he and SE feels the FF series targeted demographic should be tweens to mid 20s and said he felt it was natural for older fans to grow out of the series.

While i certainly agree that children's stories can be compelling and meaningful on many levels and some of the most poignant stories I've read or seen were children's stories; I can also see Vyk's position about needing a little more. If I have one aggravating issue with the series, its that it briefly touches on mature and complex elements in life and philosophy but often never goes anywhere with it. There are no satisfactions in the more complex elements of the FF stories and often it will drop or ignore such elements to keep to a simpler tale cause the stories are often tailored for the lowest common denominator of the demograph.

Its especially annoying when someone gets to play a game that actually goes there and gets a serious taste for these type of elements. You want to see it everywhere but you'll never get it often. There really are no RPG series that are tailored for a crowd in their mid 20s and upward. Despite the fact this is the age group that grew up and supported all these games for years as kids. Sure this age group can enjoy these games but sometimes we want more cause life shows us that these titles often think too simply about major themes and sometimes we feel it would be interesting to see someone actually try to show it how it really is in the real world.

MJN SEIFER
10-24-2010, 06:01 PM
[QUOTE=MJN SEIFER;2921163

Let me try to explain this better cause. The point of the big sword trope is actually about a visual representation of strength. By that, I mean a character who looks small and frail wielding objects that far too great for their physical appearance would say they should be able to carry.
As for the big sword trope or just the monstrous strength trope, Dragon Ball/Dragon Ball Z, Yu Yu Hakusho, Fist of the North Star, and Ranma 1/2 to name a few are series that employ this trope or something similar and existed before VII since most of them are from the 80's and early 90s.

That makes a little more sense, and I admit that I obviusly missed a few - I still maintain that it doesn't begin and end with anime though, but at least I see what you and others meen now.


Well there is the obvious anime influence...


I feel there are obvious similarities between these two.



There is more shadowing in Nomura's designs but he holds true to the iconic anime styles of lean muscle builds and feminine features for guys as well proportioned cureves and round anime eyes for girls.

He's obviously been drawing doujinshi before working for Square and I feel from his visual cues, he definetly was a big fan of Akira Toriyama's work but then again, everyone in Japan loves the guy.

His art style feels like a cross of Toriyama's style and Nubuhiro Watsuki even though Watsuki was making his signature series (Rurouni Kenshin) around the same time Nomura was working on VII and VIII.

I'll admit I overlooked the fact that Cloud has the "Spiked" look, which was initially pretty frequent in anime (although I am suprised that you chose Chrono Trigger - another videogame, as your example, when you could have easily chosen an actual anime, it works though as I think the game's artist was the DBZ guy) I have been away for a few days, and to be honest, I thought "Oh wait, I forgot that animes initially always had a guy with the spiked look back in the day". The reason I forgot, is that most of the animes I concider good don't really employ that trope much now, and when they do it's rarley an important character, and is usually the purpose of a joke. But yeah, I will give you the spiked look.

For your Tifa comparison? Sorry, I'm at a loss here... are you saying they both have black hair? I was a fan of the Sailor Moon series back in the day (and still rate it pretty high in nostaligia) but I can't really see what your driving to wards here.

I never really noticed the other stuff you mentioned, but then I never notice them in anime itself either, so maybe that's why I couldn't see it. When you and other said anime style, I thought more along the lines of a Chrono Trigger type game, which to me, appears to have been completly drawn with anime in mind, to me FFVII looks like a video game, with graphics that have been suppased, but still look awesome, save for their "hands". However I agree with the fact I may have overlooked what you actually meant, but I understand what you are saying.

I also had a think last night, and I realized that all of the FFs I've played, have some level of anime influance (take FFVI for instance - Sabin is a martial artist, who can create beams of energy - a trope if ever there was one) but does it ruin the game? No, at least not for me. Also the anime influances are hardly suprising because the games are Japanese, but I see a balance in all games.




Different thoughts and different taste I guess, nothing wrong with that though. :D
I agree with you here. This makes a lot of sense to me.




He's referring to an article I posted (http://www.next-gen.biz/features/final-fantasy-xiii-the-final-countdown?page=0%2C4) where Kitase said he and SE feels the FF series targeted demographic should be tweens to mid 20s and said he felt it was natural for older fans to grow out of the series.

God, I hate the term "tween", but that aside I haven't really read that thread, but I will say I'll never "grow out" the series even if I stop liking it. 'Cause I never grow out of anything. For example, I still like most of the childrens shows I liked as a child, because they were programes I liked, and it seams stupid to suddenly hate something just cause your too old for it. The same goes when I watch programmes aimed at todays kids - if it looks like I would have enjoyed it as a kid, I enjoy it now.


While i certainly agree that children's stories can be compelling and meaningful on many levels and some of the most poignant stories I've read or seen were children's stories; I can also see Vyk's position about needing a little more. If I have one aggravating issue with the series, its that it briefly touches on mature and complex elements in life and philosophy but often never goes anywhere with it. There are no satisfactions in the more complex elements of the FF stories and often it will drop or ignore such elements to keep to a simpler tale cause the stories are often tailored for the lowest common denominator of the demograph.

I can sort of see your point. For me, the FF games, do contain some of what you are probably asking for, I personally believe that some of the FFs did manage to touch some of the more complex elements of life as you put it. For me FFVIII did the best in this respect, epecially how much it made me take a look at my own life. FFVII did a fairly good amount as well, but I noticed more of it, after a few playthroughs. Maybe there is a way to put more to it, but sometimes you have to be careful in a video game. I thought it did alright, but I'll check if my opinions matter. Also, sometimes there's a chance you may have to read between the lines - I'm not talking about OTT stuff like "R=U/S=G" or whatever, but sometimes things are given a more indirect aproach which is one of the better ways to do things, it's like how most of the later children's shows fail because the education aspect is right in your face, where as in better ones there's also a storyline, and the education is picked up automatically by the child. The same goes with the FF games, there are messages for day to day life at times, but it doesn't flaunt them.


Its especially annoying when someone gets to play a game that actually goes there and gets a serious taste for these type of elements. You want to see it everywhere but you'll never get it often. There really are no RPG series that are tailored for a crowd in their mid 20s and upward. Despite the fact this is the age group that grew up and supported all these games for years as kids. Sure this age group can enjoy these games but sometimes we want more cause life shows us that these titles often think too simply about major themes and sometimes we feel it would be interesting to see someone actually try to show it how it really is in the real world.

Well one things for sure, I'll never grow out of FF games. If was going to I would have done it by now. Eitherway, I think "outgrowing" something is a stupid reason not to like something.

Each to their own though.

Wolf Kanno
10-25-2010, 06:34 AM
I wouldn't say the issue is that people have outgrown FF, rather, they want something more and the people at FF like to tease us with the idea that they might give it to us and then snatch it away before we can get a grasp on it.

For me, its more about how I found what I'm looking for in other game series and how I wish that FFs talents would do something on par but they frankly refuse. I don't think an FF title has made me actually "think" since 2000. Whereas Xenosaga, BoFV, Suikoden, and SMT3 have... I want more and yes, I'm being selfish when I say, I can't deny a part of me feels like Squenix owes me, despite the fact that such a notion is frankly absurd; but I also feel its poor business to ignore the needs of a loyal if aging fanbase, especially since such a fanbase does have a more expendable income as opposed to a predominant age group that still has to ask for their titles for major holidays.

I want more depth... The series has it but its still quite shallow compared to other mediums and the series never talks directly about more serious and less black and white subject matters. The world is not so simple and so I guess I want to see that more in games cause it just seems silly (and downright predictable) for everything to work itself out in the end. Its heart wrenching and bleak endings that stay with you and make you stop and think about the world. ;)

Bolivar
10-25-2010, 06:01 PM
Can't wait to sink my teeth into this thread but for now I'll say a lot of people hated this game because they wanted to.

They hated it because they wanted to.

People like Wolf Kanno declared Jihad against 3D graphics before they ever picked up a Playstation controller. Others may have been happy-go-lucky Nintendo kids whose innocence was first truly shattered by real world reality when FFVII would not be appearing on the Nintendo 64. Others were just blown away by the memories of the moments of FFVI and IV back in the day, and would refuse to allow another game to ever be considered, so the internet fanboy love OFFENDS them. For still others it may be a combination of all 3.

FFVII left the mark it did because it was a huge turning point in gaming and essentially gave birth to the Hollywood set piece that current gamers today are so enthralled with. That's probably why on the Game Over screen, there's a film reel containing scenes from the game. It's an achievement, no a testament in this medium, and it's up to the gaming fans to debate its undeniable relevance.

Wolf Kanno
10-26-2010, 04:08 AM
I wouldn't say I declared war on 3D as I don't actually mind it, just this mentality that its superior which bothers me and that was rampant back in the early days of Playstation and Sega Saturn (which I did play before making my judgment call thank you very much) and we've discussed this before in the past , how 3D is sort of a wasted element on an RPG cause very few back in the day actually used it well if at all. :p

As for people disliking VII cause they wanted because they either were Nintendo fanboys or hated 3D, or because of nostalgia; I find it frankly sad that VII fans can't grasp the concept that people could dislike the game for legitimate reasons like they just weren't impressed as opposed to it having to stem from simple jealousy (and I'll agree there are many haters who do hate simply for this) but I find it amusing that as time goes by, VII has been losing its luster in the eyes of gaming journalism and the gaming community.

Having to live through the "VII IS TEH BESTEST GMAE EVAH!!!" for the better part of my gaming life, its nice to see people actually stop and say to themselves, "I love this game, but yeah... it was kinda silly and crappy in a lot of places" or "I only like VII because of nostalgia, its far from perfect". So let me bask in my moment :meditate:

Flying Arrow
10-28-2010, 02:48 AM
People like Wolf Kanno declared Jihad against 3D graphics before they ever picked up a Playstation controller.

Eh. The thing about FFVII (and VIII and IX) is that, while "3D" it doesn't necessarily play like a 3D game. On the field map, it still feels 2D with just unconventional camera angles and player movement. Battle-wise, it was basically the same except for flashier graphics (although sometimes I'd be confused sometimes about who the cursor would be pointing to). I'd say the series really became "3D" with X when it adopted the conventional over-the-shoulder adventure game style of field running. Consequently this is when the settings started feeling a bit bland for me. While aesthetically pleasing, I'd still trade in a fully-rendered "environment" for Squaresoft's PSX-era explorable artwork any day.

Omni-Odin
12-04-2010, 01:52 AM
I know I'm late on this, but here goes:

I don't have time to quote on all these, but I will say most of the people that complain people "drone on" about VII and have an idiotic fanbase that won't stop "salivating" over it are the same people on these boards and everywhere else that do the same for FFVI. And their reasoning? "It's such a better game. Better story, better bad guy. Kefka Kefka Kefka, best baaad guuuyyyy everr!!!!! OMG, if only they made a movie and Heath Ledger was still alive..."

I mean, come on. It comes to a point where people who prefer VI have now become the ultimate hypocrites about the topic. Take it for what it is, FFVII was amazing to me and many others. Thought it was brilliant. Played VI a little after and didn't get the same feel. It doesn't mean it sucks. It means I prefer something that VI wasn't. The fact that you love VI means that Square successfully made a transition to reach out to other gamers. I've played every FF and I prefer a wide array of them in different ways. You all should to.

One more thing, I like every FF game to some level, except IIIj. I pretty much can't enjoy that thing. VI is one of my favorite games of all time. Just not one of my top five FFs. Now.....ATTACK!!!

Vyk
12-04-2010, 02:55 AM
I missed some of these posts, and though late, I feel I should clarify some things that MJN SEIFER makes good points regarding. Mostly that growing out of something you previously enjoyed is rather absurd. And I mostly agree. I'm not saying I grew out of the games I enjoyed. I still love the first half of the FF franchise. And I still love most of the retro shows I grew up with. But I liked them originally so that feeling remained with those specific titles. But as I grew, the franchise did not. And my growing needs failed to be met by the series. And now I just can't play it anymore. I didn't suddenly stop liking the games I originally enjoyed though. But for the record, that is definitely possible. I can think of a few shows that I enjoyed as kid, because I had a pallet for mindless entertainment that I just can't get into anymore. Ninja Turtles and Gummi Bears for example were awesome shows that can still be enjoyed. Ren & Stimpy and He-Man were extremely one-dimensional and gimmicky and their gimmicks drew the crowds. But they were both extremely shallow, and those gimmicks didn't retain my love. Fortunately old FF games had enough substance to avoid that fate to me. But yeah. I grew out of the where the franchise is currently aiming. But I'll never stop enjoying the games I grew up with :]

Elskidor
12-04-2010, 03:06 PM
Ren & Stimpy and He-Man were extremely one-dimensional and gimmicky and their gimmicks drew the crowds. But they were both extremely shallow, and those gimmicks didn't retain my love.

Having an older sister, I grew up on She-Ra and He-Man from before I have memory and my third birthday party was Skeletor themed. twenty something years later and I can't hardly sit through the old cartoons anymore but I still support and love the franchise itself. In fact, if I run across figures, an interesting MOTU fan fiction/art or if the new movie ever gets released I'll be all over it out of pure nostalgia. I may have grown out of the old cartoons, but I still keep up with the MOTU world and remain interested in future possible projects. I'd even buy the old 80's cartoon shows even if I never end up watching them again.

Vyk
12-04-2010, 03:27 PM
Oh I'm definitely still fond of the memories and also support the love people have for them. But like you, I just can't sit through them anymore. But its only specific examples like that. He-Man turned out to be one-dimensional, Lionel from Thundercats turned out to be an immature prick (though that's explained since he's just a hyper-aged 10 year old, but I still don't like him these days). But I have quite an extensive collection of retro shows in my collection. Most video game cartoons (Super Mario shows blow, in hindsight, but Sonic SatAM is still freakin' awesome). So I guess it varies. Some things just don't age well for me. But the idea of continuing to love something is sound