4.0 the new 8.8? [Archive] - Eyes on Final Fantasy Forums

Madame Adequate

10-07-2010, 06:45 PM

Not to rain on FFXIV, as I say I've not played it so I can't judge it properly, but I can certainly say that the cons do not apply to all or even most MMOs. The very reason they're such a big deal is because they are so elementary.

Absolutely miserable interface - Not true in ANY paid MMO I can bring to mind outside of the FFs and EVE Online. And EVE mostly takes getting used to, it does what it does because it has to, not because they decided that dragging a skill onto a hotbar was a bad idea. Maybe The Saga of Ryzom too, but even that wasn't close to how bad this sounds.
Does a poor job of communicating important information - Can't really think of any MMOs which fall down here, except perhaps EVE.
Limited questing means you're always looking for something fun to do - Though quite a few MMOs have a lack of stuff to do around launch, this is the first game I've ever heard of which seriously lacks quests. What is usually missing is stuff like crafting, or some NPC quest-giving faction isn't yet active, or a zone isn't complete. I've yet to see anyone outside the hardcore complain that in ordinary play an MMO lacks ordinary quests, except a few small-time ones that folded after a few months.
Everything about the economy stinks - The only remote parallel I can think of is City of Heroes, which didn't have an economy at launch, because you just earned everything yourself and trading didn't exist. There isn't an MMO on earth that has avoided problems with its economy, but they do tend to avoid problems like omitting Auction Houses and so forth.
Every aspect of the game is filled with dumb obstacles - This one is pretty subjective depending on what you consider 'dumb obstacles', but from the content of the review this does seem to step outside the bounds of ordinary MMO barriers to progress.

Depression Moon

10-07-2010, 08:39 PM

I finished reading it too and looked at the score. DAMN! I thought it was suspicious that this was the first FF numbered game to be released in the same year as another numbered entry.

escobert

10-07-2010, 08:50 PM

all I know is that GW2 is going to change everything in the MMO world ;)

Goldenboko

10-07-2010, 09:32 PM

"Everything about the economy stinks"

The game's been up for just like, what? a few weeks? How can you possibly judge the economy yet?

"Every aspect of the game is filled with dumb obstacles."

I really don't know what they mean by this. xD

Rase

10-07-2010, 09:50 PM

"Everything about the economy stinks"

The game's been up for just like, what? a few weeks? How can you possibly judge the economy yet?
Well he seemed to single out the lack of an auction house making Player-to-Player transactions needlessly tedious, and says there is no indication of what NPC shops have what types of items. So I'm guessing that's how he judged it.

Mirage

10-07-2010, 10:02 PM

all I know is that GW2 is going to change everything in the MMO world ;)

Yeah, by not being an MMO :>.

escobert

10-07-2010, 10:08 PM

how is it not going to be a mmo? it's going to have a persistent world.

Goldenboko

10-07-2010, 10:45 PM

Rostum

10-07-2010, 10:51 PM

While I'll agree that FFXIV has many a problem, the reviewer blows everything out of proportion.

It's a case of "My-10-year-old-established MMO can do this, this and this. Why can't this one?!" For instance, an auction house won't fix anything since the game doesn't have an established economy in the first place and as Square-Enix said, they were introducing better systems in to the market wards and will eventually throw in an auction house once it's all better established; at this point you don't need to play the economy with the way the game has initially been set up.

The main issue on everyone's mind is the UI, while a lot of people will complain about it it's only real issue is the lag with bringing up menus (1-2 second lag, caused by server side UI). But other than that, I see no difference to a game like WoW or Aion in terms of ease of use. I also suppose the lack of content is an issue for those who want to play 10+ hours a day, but otherwise I haven't really been bored while I've been in-game (and how do people even spend that kind of time in a game?).

The game itself is not as bad as the reviewer makes it out to be, but it is evident that they were pushed by higher management to release this game as early as possible. It's got bugs, it's needs some more content (seems like a complaint of any new MMO that I see come around), and needs a rethink of some design elements. I don't even think the developers are happy with it, as they wanted reviewers to give it a month before reviewing it (I believe there is a major content patch on it's way, but I can't remember if I read that somewhere or that I'm just being hopeful).

An issue that will never get fixed is Square-Enix's lack of communication with their fanbase. As much as they say they are trying to fix it, they won't. And that's what will bring this game down, just like FFXI.

Anyways, the best thing about this game is the soundtrack. Uematsu is incredible. <3

I thought it was suspicious that this was the first FF numbered game to be released in the same year as another numbered entry.

That has nothing to do with it. It's a completely different team developing this game (from a range of talent from previous development teams in the series).

Loony BoB

10-07-2010, 11:06 PM

The UI is bad. Definitely. Everyone knows this, even SE have apologised openly for the UI lag in particular. In time, it'll improve. They've stated it's a priority on many an occasion. Their money is invested in this thing, the last thing they want is for everyone to consider their UI broken beyond belief. We'll have to see how things go. I'd just be happy if it was faster response-wise, that's all I need.

The learning curve is bad. It was in FFXI too. I remember struggling to figure out what to do in that game. Hell, I initially struggled to figure out how to move. xD

Lack of content? Hmm, I agree and disagree. I agree because there is a lack of quests given by random NPCs. But the story quests are great, and the levequests are no less involving than say "I need an onion" from FFXI. It's still "beat up some things and bring them back" without the "bring them back" thing. You still get rewards, too. When you get to L15, you get Parley, a minigame. Crafting and gathering in themselves are minigames, and so addictive, in my case. :( I believe the game may open up a bit more at L20 when you can obtain guild marks, and again when you get to the point that you can do faction quests. It seems to be a game which benefits those who persevere rather than gifting everything to L1/R1's from the start. Newcomers may not be given an easy ride in this game... but luckily, if you do ask for help, people do help, and I appreciate the many people who have done so for me and I will do the same for them. I've even been helped by people who didn't speak English before. Which is crazy. They did it all through auto-translate, how nice is that? Even gave me something for free via trade. Lovely people.

From what I understand, few MMO's start with an auction house. I admit I look forward to the day they add one in, but at the same time I've actually not found it that limiting gameplay-wise. I gather my own items, craft my own parts, craft my own gear. If there were certain items made more readily available, great, but for now it's okay. If there were an AH right now, the economy would be terrible. Whoever has leveled highest would have all the cash, basically. That sounds normal, but with the recipe system FFXIV has (harder to make the parts than the actual end product), the people at higher levels could royally screw the people at lower levels if there was an AH. The lower level people would simply not profit. I like it the way it is (being in the mid-tier of crafters, personally).

The AH should only come in when there is a decent number of people who have capped, as that way the economy would have stabilised somewhat when it comes to supply and demand.

Dumb obstacles? Sounds like the guy was just trying to come up with reasons to lower the score. Is this the same company which was allegedly paid off at some point?

Still, at it's current state, the game certainly doesn't warrant an 8.8, either. It's lacking a massive amount of content, but things will be changing over the next few months and I'm told that quests will be coming in the masses soon enough, supposedly. Same with market ward changes and whatnot. It's a work in progress, definitely, but it's still a work in progress that I'm willing to pay in order to get ahead on. I'm also having loads of fun playing it. Can't complain about much, personally, aside from the lack of communication between players at the moment.

I'd give it a 6.5 in it's current state, but in my head I say it's more 7.5 because I'm enjoying it so much that I almost feel biased towards it. It definitely comes across in most forums as a love-it-or-hate-it thing. I'm genuinely interested in how WoW players rate it compared to how FFXI players rate it. Just to see how expectations differ amongst the playerbases. They certainly seem to have different reputations, just wondering if that has any relevance to the whole love/hate thing.

PS. Odd, I loved Eve's UI. I thought it was amazing. >_>; Go figure.

Rostum

10-07-2010, 11:24 PM

Is this the same company which was allegedly paid off at some point?

I just wanted to add that they all do. Learning first hand, if you don't offer something to a reviewer they will intentionally rate your game down.

Depression Moon

10-08-2010, 12:50 AM

That has nothing to do with it. It's a completely different team developing this game (from a range of talent from previous development teams in the series).

I know that, but are you saying there is no issue of money or time?

Also there is a written review of the game that goes more in depth. It was stated in the video.

Jessweeee♪

10-08-2010, 04:46 AM

The learning curve is bad. It was in FFXI too. I remember struggling to figure out what to do in that game. Hell, I initially struggled to figure out how to move. xD

There's no way I could have picked it up on my own. The very first time my character spawned into FFXI, ♪TJ Gaga♪ pretended to be a little tutorial NPC and gave me a tour of the town, showing me all of the shops and auction houses and stuff like that, and even out in the field to fight. It was so much fun xD

Ouch!

10-08-2010, 05:09 AM

Final Fantasy XIII and Final Fantasy XIV being released in the same year have no bearing on one another. There is absolutely no significant bleed over between their staffs, so efforts made towards the game are entirely independent. I sincerely doubt money is an issue for Square Enix; they can, after all, afford to purchase a struggling developer like Eidos. They're a business, and they wouldn't put down that kind of money unless they were confident they could afford to turn a profit on such a large investment.

Issues of time for the game, as Rostum mentioned, are apparent. It's become pretty clear that the development team was pressed to release the game ahead of its schedule. That's most likely an issue of the upper management putting pressure on the team, though, and has very little to do with FFXIII's release unless possibly FFXIII's disappointing sales numbers made Square Enix's management push harder to get FFXIV out. That would make sense, I guess, since MMORPGs tend to be massive cash cows.

Rostum

10-08-2010, 05:24 AM

What were the sales figures on FFXIII? I thought they were pretty damn high, but maybe it was wrong information.

Ouch!

10-08-2010, 06:47 AM

I looked it up. Apparently I was wrong and it sold very well. For some reason I was thinking that initial sales were very strong but they tapered off very quickly.

Del Murder

10-08-2010, 07:26 AM

Depression Moon

10-08-2010, 02:37 PM

Issues of time for the game, as Rostum mentioned, are apparent. It's become pretty clear that the development team was pressed to release the game ahead of its schedule. That's most likely an issue of the upper management putting pressure on the team, though, and has very little to do with FFXIII's release unless possibly FFXIII's disappointing sales numbers made Square Enix's management push harder to get FFXIV out. That would make sense, I guess, since MMORPGs tend to be massive cash cows.

That's what I was saying about that minus the XIII redeem part. They had to regulate time and quality for both. If they had waited for it to come out next year, probably a good bit of that stuff would've been resolved and primarily focused on those flaws. I don't see how testers couldn't have told them about these problems. By the sound of it they seemed to rush and put this out. My game instincts have never failed.

This game should never have been released when it was and SE is going to take a big hit for that.

I can agree on that. A lot of people take reviews into consideration to help them from making the wrong choice of spending their money. If the majority of these reviews are like this, people are going to take that into consideration.

Mirage

10-08-2010, 02:43 PM

Finally read the review. I feel some of the stuff is blown out of proportion. I've never played the game, but some of the things he complains about (like having to navigate menus) was in FFXI and I had no problem dealing with it. Some of it, though, is completely justified. Like going to equip an item and it pulls up your whole inventory instead of just the items you can equip in that slot. Wtf SE? Simple things like this (and hotkeys) that were already in FFXI should not be a problem. This game should never have been released when it was and SE is going to take a big hit for that.

From what I've heard and read, it seems like the retail build is more or less the same as the open beta. I was in the open beta, and it was pretty bad. I didn't find a lot of improvements in OB from the third closed beta phase either. I would never pay for anything that was as half done as what I played in the beta phase.

Loony BoB

10-08-2010, 03:35 PM

Old Manus

10-08-2010, 04:33 PM

But I love Final Fantasy XIV!

Mirage

10-08-2010, 06:02 PM

I thought you'd already got the game, Mirage?

I can agree on that. A lot of people take reviews into consideration to help them from making the wrong choice of spending their money. If the majority of these reviews are like this, people are going to take that into consideration.
To be fair, of the "critic reviews" metacritic has logged, two of them also point out the faults detailed in the Gamespot review but give it twice as high a score, pointing out the immense potential and solid core gameplay - I think they were ratings of 83 and 84 compared to Gamespot's 40 (there were only three critic reviews when I last checked metacritic). Which isn't terrible, when you consider that Gamespot is a "pay for ratings" site and Square-Enix is possibly the last company that will do such a thing for an English speaking site. xD

I was turned off when I saw the distinct lack of any sort of progress in core elements of the game, going from beta 3 to open beta. Considering the current retail is barely better than open beta, I'm gonna wait. I'm not interested in paying for beta testing their prematurely released game.

I've cut them way too much slack over the years I've played FF11. If they want to hook me again with another subscribtion based time sink of a game, they will have to do better than they have done so far.

Loony BoB

10-08-2010, 06:52 PM

Having actually played both beta and retail, I find that there are notable differences - particularly with mouse lag and a bit of UI lag too (although the latter still needs work, but hey, it's good regardless). As for the game itself, I never had any real problems with beta, so I guess we differ in what we enjoy. Fair enough.

Mirage

10-08-2010, 09:37 PM

It is impossible that the developers did not understand that the release date was set way too early. Someone in the company smurfed up real bad by deciding to release it several months before it was done, and I intend to tell them that they were morons by not buying the game until it is closer to what I would call a finished product.

Any game that was not primarly an online game would never have gotten away with this, and I think it is a terrible practice to purposely release a game that is heavily flawed just because they can fix it "sometime later". I'm not going to support that kind of crap.

Loony BoB

10-08-2010, 11:00 PM

As I said, I guess we differ in what we enjoy, because while I don't think it's a finished product (and no MMO is at release, otherwise there wouldn't be room for additional content), I feel that it's a great raw product with a couple of inconveniences when it comes to the UI. *shrugs* Even the lack of AH is becoming less of an issue lately. Danielle and I are making a significant amount of gear now. I'm making needles, pickaxes, hammers, daggers, earrings, rings, chokers, wristlets and probably could make a lot more with a couple of extra materials. She's making gloves, hats, scarves, tights, pants, boots, belts, etc. Between us, we could outfit a full linkshell for a very low cost indeed! All this and we've barely spent a penny. If there was an AH, we probably wouldn't have got as into crafting as we have.

Rostum

10-09-2010, 12:08 AM

Loony BoB

10-09-2010, 12:11 AM

On a sidenote, if someone is really interested in the game but don't want to buy without knowing finer details, I think the IGN in-depth review (http://uk.pc.ign.com/articles/112/1123824p1.html) is fantastic and pretty accurate in it's addressing to flaws and strengths - and, importantly, the way it doesn't focus on either but simply tells you what you might want to know, and doesn't linger too long on it.

Mirage

10-09-2010, 01:25 AM

Any game that was not primarly an online game would never have gotten away with this...

Oh come on, get off your high horse. This is always the major complaint for any new MMO that's been released. Always. As an MMO, if they kept holding off the release date to fix and add things, then it'll never get released! Not to mention they would practically have little to no user feedback to help them in the process (which is absolutely needed for video game development, and MMO's have the advantage of it).

I quite like it up on this horse. Just because it's the status quo i shouldn't be allowed to dislike it? What do you know about when I started playing other MMOs? Did I start playing WoW and FF11 at the day of their releases? Even if I did, neither of those two games were released as prematurely as FF14.

It's not about delaying the release over and over again to iron out every small, new bug that is found, it's about not moving it forward and release it before you've fixed even a fraction of the bugs and issues reported by alpha and beta testers. I used to be rather optimistic about many of the bugs that people were complaining about, saying "nah i'm sure at least those bugs won't be a problem in retail". For a lot of those, I was wrong.

Lionx

10-09-2010, 01:41 AM

I am going to have to agree with the score and criticism given in the article along with Mirage. Despite the horrible customer support that i have been given, all those things that article said have been true playing it thus far. It looks great at first but then there are pitfalls everywhere. Things certainly have improved since beta but not enough. I will still play it for a lil while give it a more than deserved chance, but if it fails to entertain i might just go to WoW.

This is an FF board, and of course theres going to be more supporters than otherwise. But as an MMO by itself it is not impressing me or most others in this day and age outside of graphics. I expected more (and by that i meant the standard that MMOs have evolved to presently).

It's not about delaying the release over and over again to iron out every small, new bug that is found, it's about not moving it forward and release it before you've fixed even a fraction of the bugs and issues reported by alpha and beta testers. I used to be rather optimistic about many of the bugs that people were complaining about, saying "nah i'm sure at least those bugs won't be a problem in retail". For a lot of those, I was wrong.

Agreed. A lot.

I really tried to defend this game, and by the end of it, i have to think back and go "They are right". That article along with the majority of people, is correct.

Rostum

10-09-2010, 04:24 AM

but if it fails to entertain i might just go to WoW.
No, dude. We can find better solutions! Maybe play more SC2!

I expected more (and by that i meant the standard that MMOs have evolved to presently).
I honestly don't know what I expected. There is something not quite grabbing me, but I don't know what it is to be honest - I just know it's none of the issues that people keep bringing up.

Loony BoB

10-09-2010, 08:17 AM

What exactly are these bugs people keep talking about? Bug-wise, I experienced more problems in FFXI 6 years after it's release than I have in FFXIV one week after it's release. I've hardly had a problem at all. The only bug I can think of off the top of my head is the UI lag. I can understand saying that there aren't enough features, but it barely crashes at all and runs smoothly on my PC. I never get "stuck" physically in the game, and my inputs have a result that matches what I wanted - unless you mean the speed at which it does what you want, in which case again, that's UI lag.

Inventory sorting, map marking, etc. - all features, not bugs.

Goldenboko

10-09-2010, 04:30 PM

Square releasing half-finished MMO's is not a new topic guys. (http://zeusls.llima.net/download/ffxiupdatehistory.html)

DMKA

10-09-2010, 06:15 PM

Eh, everyone complained about FFXI on intial release too, didn't stop it from becoming a (still growing) cash cow. Although the reviews it's recieved so far are incredibly bad.

Of course, this game has Final Fantasy (number) for a title. Lets not kid ourselves; all the bad reviews in the world aren't going to greatly hurt it's sales, but man is it providing some great trollbait right now.

I never had any plans to play it anyway, as I never played FFXI as MMORPGs do absolutely nothing for me. But I'm sure it'll become a decent game in the eyes of the MMO world at some point down the line.

Rostum

10-10-2010, 12:02 AM

I'm going to use this as an example because of how freakin' huge the game is. WoW had just as, if not a more horrible launch. A lot of people forget about that because the launch of it wasn't the success of it, it was how Blizzard dealt with it from there on in (and damn they did a good job). So now that FFXIV is released, it's really up to what Square-Enix do now as to whether it's a success or not - in the case of Aion, NCSoft just didn't act fast enough to get that 1.9 patch out and lost of lot of subscriptions.

Over the decade I've really turned from hardcore MMO player to extremely casual. In fact the only reason I play MMO's now is mainly for the community aspect and teaming up to do stuff - which I have not found in FFXIV since no one is on Fat Chocobos and everyone else in the game is so quiet. Maybe that's what's killing it for me.

Madame Adequate

10-10-2010, 01:51 AM

There's a difference between a game having room to grow and a game being released in an unfinished state. There is also a difference between gameplay problems and technical problems (Though the latter aren't really justifiable when you have an open beta specifically to stress-test things).

Mirage

10-10-2010, 02:05 AM

Hey, at least gametrailers gave it a better review (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/review-hd-final-fantasy/705893)!

Loony BoB

10-10-2010, 12:40 PM

The fact that they gave presentation a 6.9 says to me that they're incredibly biased against the game. In fact, every time they brought up something I consider to be awesome they didn't talk about it for longer than a couple of seconds, instead going "but..." about it in some way, shape or form. A pretty unfair review. I'm honestly baffled at that one. Genuinely. I mean, I can understand some people who are getting upset at certain aspects of the game but this guy, someone who has apparently got through to level 15 going by what I can see in the review, didn't mention the UI lag or in fact the UI in general once? This is the flaw almost everyone agrees on, probably the biggest flaw in the game. I question how much the individual involved in writing that review played it.

And the visuals are utterly amazing. I only have it on 'medium' settings, too. Still astonishingly good. And he points out that the battle is crap by having a solo against a dodo while using a single attack, repeatedly, despite having about 10 commands listed in his actions? Nice. I don't use standard attack longer than a few hits in a row at the start to build up a bit of TP before launching into an almost constantly changing set of attacks, and I'm level 16.

It seems this is a love it or hate it game. Maybe it's because I haven't played much of WoW, maybe it's because I haven't played GW/Aion/Warhammer, but I adore this game. I can see the flaws but I can also see them being resolved as time goes by. Also, I've got to rank 15 on three classes and rank 10+ on seven more. Is this guy impatient or something? 'cause that's four main story quests so far for me completed. He says they're few and far between... what was he expecting? A new story quest every rank? And if you do solo a single rank for a week, you'll probably get all four story quests done in that week. Does he want a new main story quest every day? 365 main story quests per year? Blimey.

It made the Gamespot review look credible.

But I suppose this will always happen, and it's amusing how people who dislike the game will only link to bad reviews and people who like the game won't. I'll stick to a balancing act and, for other critic reviews, please see below.

Final Fantasy XIV Online Review for PC (http://cheatcc.com/pc/rev/finalfantasyxivreview.html) - 4.2/5 "Great"
HonestGamers - Final Fantasy XIV review (PC) (http://www.honestgamers.com/reviews/9064/Final-Fantasy-XIV.html) - 7/10
Final Fantasy XIV Review: In Progress - PC Feature at IGN (http://uk.pc.ign.com/articles/112/1123824p1.html) - In-depth progressive review, no rating as yet.
Final Fantasy XIV MMO Log One: What’s My Motivation? | Kotaku Australia (http://www.kotaku.com.au/2010/09/final-fantasy-xiv-mmo-log-one-whats-my-motivation) - Weekly progressive review, no rating as yet.
Final Fantasy XIV Field Report, Feature Story from GamePro (http://www.gamepro.com/article/features/216842/final-fantasy-xiv-field-report/) - Pros & Cons review, no rating, but didn't seem to like it :p

Rostum

10-11-2010, 12:10 AM

And the visuals are utterly amazing. I only have it on 'medium' settings, too. Still astonishingly good.

I agree that the visuals are technically amazing, but the one thing that gets me is the lack of landmarks throughout the landscapes which would make things much more interesting when running through them. Other than that the character models, armor models, textures and mo-cap animation are really, really nice.

And he points out that the battle is crap by having a solo against a dodo while using a single attack, repeatedly, despite having about 10 commands listed in his actions? Nice. I don't use standard attack longer than a few hits in a row at the start to build up a bit of TP before launching into an almost constantly changing set of attacks, and I'm level 16.

That's one thing I picked up on. He had so many commands to use but he was just pressing the one over and over again.

I haven't played much of WoW

I must admit, WoW is much better in terms of introducing you to the game and just the ease of use. It'd be nice if SE could learn a few things from Blizzard.

Thanks for those reviews, I'll check 'em out!

Kenshin IV

10-11-2010, 02:21 AM

From everything I've read (not played, as I will never touch a game that charges me a monthly fee) the franchise has finally hit rock bottom with this entry. Honestly, with the path this series was on, it was bound to happen sooner or later.

Carl the Llama

10-11-2010, 03:30 AM

Mirage

10-11-2010, 03:46 AM

Carl the Llama

10-11-2010, 06:36 AM

You shouldn't pass judgment on a game you haven't played, I personally love the game and it just seems to me people were expecting it to be this be all end all of MMO's upon its release... these things take time, time I myself am more then willing to take part in this game, for all its flaws and bugs.

At the end of the day every person in the world has their own tastes and if they don't like the game then that is their own choice, people looking for an easy ride should trundle over to WoW, I myself am most likely never going back to that game as I personally prefer XIV, I also feel more and more people are jumping on the "lets hate XIV cause its not like wow bandwagon" not that I am saying all people who dislike the game has that opinion but it seems to me there are some who are threatened by what this game can represent, again not fact but this is what I feel about the game.

Just for your information, the complaints of europeans and americans are largely the same as the the complaints the japanese have, and WoW is not very big over there (I don't think it's even officially released in japan). So no, it's not because it's "not wow".

You seriously are deluded if you believe that... no offense, but imagine the following:

WoW Fanboi: I don't like that there is another MMO out there that can potentially knock my game off of the throne given time, why don't I bash the game using the complaints others who have actually played the game said so this game will hopefully die and people can come back to my way of thinking that my game is supreme ect ect.

All you have to do to see what I'm talking about is watch the review on Game Trailers, or indeed listen to what BoB has written:

The fact that they gave presentation a 6.9 says to me that they're incredibly biased against the game. In fact, every time they brought up something I consider to be awesome they didn't talk about it for longer than a couple of seconds, instead going "but..." about it in some way, shape or form. A pretty unfair review. I'm honestly baffled at that one. Genuinely. I mean, I can understand some people who are getting upset at certain aspects of the game but this guy, someone who has apparently got through to level 15 going by what I can see in the review, didn't mention the UI lag or in fact the UI in general once? This is the flaw almost everyone agrees on, probably the biggest flaw in the game. I question how much the individual involved in writing that review played it.

And the visuals are utterly amazing. I only have it on 'medium' settings, too. Still astonishingly good. And he points out that the battle is crap by having a solo against a dodo while using a single attack, repeatedly, despite having about 10 commands listed in his actions? Nice. I don't use standard attack longer than a few hits in a row at the start to build up a bit of TP before launching into an almost constantly changing set of attacks, and I'm level 16.

Incredibly Biased... like some rabid WoW fanboi has come along and felt threatened about the potential of XIV.

At the end of the day I no longer care whether or not people like this game or not, I do and so I will continue to pay Squeenix to play this wonderful game and any who think otherwise can play their WoW's and GW2's and that is just fine by me.

Rostum

10-11-2010, 10:38 AM

Completely unreliable source, but someone who was at the latest ComicCon got to talk to a SE representative that stated November is the month of all the major patches (to fix all the current issues and add in new content). Maybe I'm just being hopeful, because I want to see this game succeed, but that'll be an awesome month if it's true.

Loony BoB

10-11-2010, 11:32 AM

Sounds good. I know the market ward refresh is happening hopefully this week - yet to be seen if these Friday updates are going to be a regular thing or not, but we'll see. Despite this, I'm making very nice money now that I'm able to make the likes of Bronze Pickaxes, Bronze Raising Hammers, Bronze Daggers etc. and have even had people contacting me via FFXIVPro because my raising hammer had sold and they wanted one. Went to my retainer, pulled out some materials, made the whole thing from scratch via four or more recipes while he watched. It's pretty nervy when someone is watching you make something that you may possibly botch, but I got it done and made 17k on the spot. :) Double that, I suppose, since the other one had sold. The system, while not amazingly easy due to the lack of AH, is still very workable and everyone can get what they want if they know where to go. :)

Mirage

10-11-2010, 04:22 PM

You shouldn't pass judgment on a game you haven't played, I personally love the game and it just seems to me people were expecting it to be this be all end all of MMO's upon its release... these things take time, time I myself am more then willing to take part in this game, for all its flaws and bugs.

At the end of the day every person in the world has their own tastes and if they don't like the game then that is their own choice, people looking for an easy ride should trundle over to WoW, I myself am most likely never going back to that game as I personally prefer XIV, I also feel more and more people are jumping on the "lets hate XIV cause its not like wow bandwagon" not that I am saying all people who dislike the game has that opinion but it seems to me there are some who are threatened by what this game can represent, again not fact but this is what I feel about the game.

Just for your information, the complaints of europeans and americans are largely the same as the the complaints the japanese have, and WoW is not very big over there (I don't think it's even officially released in japan). So no, it's not because it's "not wow".

You seriously are deluded if you believe that... no offense, but imagine the following:

WoW Fanboi: I don't like that there is another MMO out there that can potentially knock my game off of the throne given time, why don't I bash the game using the complaints others who have actually played the game said so this game will hopefully die and people can come back to my way of thinking that my game is supreme ect ect.

All you have to do to see what I'm talking about is watch the review on Game Trailers, or indeed listen to what BoB has written:

I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't care what gametrailers is saying in their review, lots of the complaints are still shared between western and japanese gamers. Seeing as there is no real install base for WoW in Japan, why would they complain about things because they're different in WoW? Perhaps, just perhaps, the many of the issues are simply poor game design, regardless of which game you're comparing it to?

For the record, I don't even like WoW. I played it to like level 36 and quit because it was a bit uninspiring. I do want to play FF14 , but not in its current state.

I don't know why you're calling me deluded, and believe it or not, saying "lol no offense" doesn't actually make something offending suddenly become non-offending, so just drop that crap.

If anything sounds like delusions in here, it's you thinking FF14 is going to make a significant drop in subscribers for WoW.

Jibril

10-11-2010, 04:38 PM

Incredibly Biased... like some rabid WoW fanboi has come along and felt threatened about the potential of XIV.
It's funny because this bias exists, but you're not representing it in the way it actually skews reviews. For Square-Enix in particular, critics are rationally harsh. For Blizzard (and uh, AAA western games in general) critics are irrationally forgiving. There's lots of reasons for that, but the fact is that the critics are pretty much correct about FFXIV; it's broken, unfinished, frustrating, confusing and slow. It is unacceptable to release a game in the state it's in now. To deny that, in actuality, is borderline delusional.

Of course, it has potential. It's just going to take a while for it to get there, if it gets there at all.

Loony BoB

10-11-2010, 04:46 PM

It's not broken so far as I can tell, but it is the other things to some extent.

Carl the Llama

10-11-2010, 08:59 PM

At the end of the day every person in the world has their own tastes and if they don't like the game then that is their own choice, people looking for an easy ride should trundle over to WoW, I myself am most likely never going back to that game as I personally prefer XIV

As you can see here I have played wow, in fact I have played wow for nearly 5 years, have a warlock at level 80, I have done almost everything the game has to offer and now I have had my fill of it, this is where I get the opinion (note opinion, not fact) that there are indeed other people out there who will be leaving WoW to play XIV, hence why the inevitable angst of WoW fanboi's out there, right on que the hate for XIV comes about.

Please not that I am not thinking or saying that all or even most of the people out there are WoW fanboi's just that anyone who does not want people to leave said game will inevitably start bashing XIV.

I also feel more and more people are jumping on the "lets hate XIV cause its not like wow bandwagon" not that I am saying all people who dislike the game has that opinion but it seems to me there are some who are threatened by what this game can represent, again not fact but this is what I feel about the game.
Ok I hold my hands up, I completely worded that wrong, the point I intent to put across was not the similarity's (or there lack of) between XIV and WoW it was more of a "lets hate XIV cause people are leaving -insert game here- for it" being a WoW player myself I like the game but it is unlikely that I will return to play it.

I don't know why you're calling me deluded, and believe it or not, saying "lol no offense" doesn't actually make something offending suddenly become non-offending, so just drop that crap.

Calling someone deluded isn't an offense, I submit the following:

de·lude (d-ld)
tr.v. de·lud·ed, de·lud·ing, de·ludes
1. To deceive the mind or judgment of: fraudulent ads that delude consumers into sending in money. See Synonyms at deceive.

So me calling you deluded is not an offense, you have been deluded (As you have not actually played the game) and are taking others opinions on what the faults etc. of the game are, in my opinion you are being deluded, yes, you may have played the beta but some people who I have spoken to who have also played the beta have said that in their opinion the first 20 minutes of live play blows away the experience they had playing the entire beta period.

Why, you may ask, did I say no offense? Because some people take offense when pointed out that they have been deluded, I simply stated that your being delusional if you truly believe WoW fanboi's are not out to bash this game, regardless of its faults/bugs, even if this game were the best game ever with everything that is faulty in the game were perfect, it would still get fug heads saying this game blows.

If anything sounds like delusions in here, it's you thinking FF14 is going to make a significant drop in subscribers for WoW.

First off the bat you tell be calling someone deluded is offensive, then you call me delusional, does that mean you intended to be offensive? Good job I know what the word deluded means huh?

Aside from that I said it has the potential to do so, not that it will be so, and any gamer can readily agree that any online game has potential to become the best out there, they just have to listen to what people say and do what they think best for the community, and my opinion stems from the fact that I have played WoW for almost 5 years and I have left that game to play XIV, so no, I am not delusional I merely am stating what, given time and improvements could very well become the best MMO out there.

Rostum

10-11-2010, 10:00 PM

Mirage

10-12-2010, 06:15 AM

I don't know why you're calling me deluded, and believe it or not, saying "lol no offense" doesn't actually make something offending suddenly become non-offending, so just drop that crap.

Calling someone deluded isn't an offense, I submit the following:

de·lude (d-ld)
tr.v. de·lud·ed, de·lud·ing, de·ludes
1. To deceive the mind or judgment of: fraudulent ads that delude consumers into sending in money. See Synonyms at deceive.

So me calling you deluded is not an offense, you have been deluded (As you have not actually played the game) and are taking others opinions on what the faults etc. of the game are, in my opinion you are being deluded, yes, you may have played the beta but some people who I have spoken to who have also played the beta have said that in their opinion the first 20 minutes of live play blows away the experience they had playing the entire beta period.

Why, you may ask, did I say no offense? Because some people take offense when pointed out that they have been deluded, I simply stated that your being delusional if you truly believe WoW fanboi's are not out to bash this game, regardless of its faults/bugs, even if this game were the best game ever with everything that is faulty in the game were perfect, it would still get fug heads saying this game blows.
If you think delusional isn't offensive, don't say "no offense". Either call people whatever you think isn't offensive, or don't. That's what pisses me off, not someone (who is in the minority) saying I'm deluded. And drop the condescending tone, if anything about your post is offensive, that's it. (no offense btw)

If anything sounds like delusions in here, it's you thinking FF14 is going to make a significant drop in subscribers for WoW.

First off the bat you tell be calling someone deluded is offensive, then you call me delusional, does that mean you intended to be offensive? Good job I know what the word deluded means huh?

Aside from that I said it has the potential to do so, not that it will be so, and any gamer can readily agree that any online game has potential to become the best out there, they just have to listen to what people say and do what they think best for the community, and my opinion stems from the fact that I have played WoW for almost 5 years and I have left that game to play XIV, so no, I am not delusional I merely am stating what, given time and improvements could very well become the best MMO out there.

Yeah, you might come from a game where the developers actually know how to do this in a decent way. That's your problem, really. You're used to good management of a game from Blizzard. I, having played FF11 for way too long, have seen first hand how S-E again and again screw things up. So far, S-E hasn't really shown that they have learned much from their previous MMO. The people I talk with that play FF14 have all played FF11, and I'd rather listen to them than to a hopeful person coming from WoW, cause these know how to spot S-E's bullcrap.

Loony BoB

10-12-2010, 09:37 AM

Admittedly, I've not played FFXI for nearly as long as most have, but SE do listen to some extent, they just can't perform miracles for some problems (ie, they need time to test things before implementing changes) and for other problems they obviously feel they either aren't that high a priority compared to other things they're working on or, in the case of features, feel that while the features would make life easy for some people, it's not the strategy they want to use to progress the game at this point in it's 'life'.

Good examples of SE listening since Beta...
1. I'd say lag problems have improved by about ten times over since I played open beta. Especially when dealing with the inventory.
2. Hardware mouse implemented at launch.
3. Chatbox problems resolved - no more detail of what others are getting by default, no more 'jumping'.
4. More chatting issues - chat has priority over battle/synthesis now so the synthesis won't stop your chatline that you're typing out.
5. Buttloads of balancing issues have been looked at from battle to synthesis to experience and skill points... and continue to be monitored closely, it seems.
6. The new market wards are hopefully to be implemented this week going by their update last week.
7. Damn, these servers are amazingly stable for a launch. Beta was horrible for this, but since launch I've maybe crashed 3-4 times. Not bad when you consider I leave my character logged in and the game window open 24/7.
8. Arranged downtimes have been staged over more varied hours and also have been further apart, allowing more people in different timezones to play more regularly. This was pretty key for Europeans in the GMT+2 timezone (France, Germany, etc).
9. Obviously, many technical issues and apparent server-crashing issues (which again, I've never noticed myself) have been fixed, mostly during beta.

Just off the top of my head, all that. They're listening, it just happens that they actually consider things before going ahead with them instead of just going "Oh, the masses demand, we shall change our strategy to suit them."

There are a lot of things I'd like to see come in but I do feel that, in time, they will come in. Allegedly there are big updates along the way, but even if there aren't I'm still having fun. Only barely starting to get into the social side of things too... so things can only get better there. Luckily Bleys and Kaiser have started coming online more often when I'm around and that's some good chat there, and also Ashi is joining soon - just waiting on her game arriving. Ouch to follow... btw, Rostum, where is Aya? Gone absent lately after storming up the levels early on.

To answer your other question (Rostum), I've found all crafts are essentially the same, just some are harder to get end results out of early in the game. The ones our linkshell is lacking on at the moment are probably Goldsmith and Alchemist, as I'm the only one doing them at the moment (I know Danielle has Alchemist tools, mind you, but don't think she uses them). The odd thing about that is those are probably two of the better things to level... Goldsmith gives fairly instant reward as once you get to rank 5 or so you should be able to start selling things such as bone rings for 500 gil a pop, which isn't much but bone chips are so easy to get that you should easily rank up that way and also can make a little gil, unlike most other classes that require you to get to around rank 10 before that happens. Alchemist is great purely for the ability to turn crystals into shards once you get to around rank 13 or so. This is really important for me.

It takes a massive amount of gametime to level in crafting, though. If you are aiming to be fairly casual in your gameplay, it's probably worth focusing on a fighter class at the moment, but then again if you just do 8 local leves every 36 hours then that will take up a few hours and give you a lot of free experience (free as in the local leves give you the materials and shards required, so you don't use your own stock).

I play this game for hours on end, am level 29 at the moment, and have got a good set of crafting classes up the levels, five of them at rank 12-14 and one of them at 16. Danielle spends about half the time I do and has got one crafter to rank 15 and one to 11. So it shows that if you have a huge amount of time, you'll probably be able to get a few crafts up, but if you don't, you can still focus on a couple.

Finally, worth noting that if you intend on doing something like carpentry, blacksmithing or armorer then you'll find yourself needing every other craft under the sun anyway. Alchemist and Goldsmith are much more straight-forward, as is Culinarian.

Lionx

10-12-2010, 10:16 AM

The things you listed Bob, to me is more of necessary changes. Not like game-related changes to the content or anything where fans demand X or Y. Its more of whats to be expected in any MMO, if you can see where i am coming from.

On that note, theres not enough to do...hopefully theres more content that will encourage me to log on..because right now i am more avoidant to pressing that FFXIV button with every login i do.

Loony BoB

10-12-2010, 10:22 AM

In that case, everything in the game could really be classed as "neccessity" rather than listening to users. That's a bit of a lose-lose situation being drawn up for Square-Enix, which is a bit unfair. The things they change that were demanded are classed as not listening but instead just doing what they should have, and if they don't make a change, it's classed as Square-Enix not listening then, either. So what do they have to do that is classed as 'listening'?

On another note, how much content do MMO's usually launch with? I don't have enough time to do all the stuff I want to do in the game! xD Maybe that's because I want to do too much ;) I've only touched one actual fighter class, too. Haven't even started with mixing and matching the abilities of another fighter for that reason alone.

People need to talk to each other if they want things to do, in all honesty. This game shouldn't be a solo game, regardless of how much SE want to make it solo-friendly. You should party up with people and play the game together. Level up together, get aetherytes together, try to find good enemies for your level together, etc. etc. Perhaps I enjoy it more because I party with Danielle and will, I'm sure, party with others soon too.

Having said all of that, I do agree that more content would be good. But to say that there's nothing to log in for is like saying that you don't want to grind up the levels at all. It doesn't take long to get to rank 15 if you really want to, and the story at that point is getting pretty good for me. But yeah, it would be nice to be able to get quests from NPCs instead of just levequests. I'm a little tired of doing them, personally. I can understand that SE might think "well, it's just the same as a quest except you go to the same person! You do it in FFXI but go to different people, sure, but in this game we save you that hassle!" but really it comes across differently.

Still, with the number of NPCs they have in this game, I'm fairly confident that content will be coming. There are just absolute masses of NPCs that, at present, do absolutely sod all beside say a couple of things. There are six villages I've seen so far in the game that have about ten or so NPCs in them that have no purpose to my knowledge, but I look forward to finding out what will happen in them.

Lionx

10-12-2010, 10:41 AM

Well the way i saw it was, they are listening of course but those changes were really make it or break it deals and they aren't that hard to implement compared to new content. Its mostly mechanical stuff. It wasn't like players that want Assault or something but then SE decides not to do it.

Theres a bunch of issues like no auto-sort (they better not pull a FFXI with that and fix it 5 years later). Its like little things here and there that just makes it hard to play. I guess i just expected these things to not be an issue with their experience with FFXI.

I don't want to just grind...

I also wanted more to explore. There are like hidden caves that lead to nowhere and 'towns' that don't do anything. Yeah you can say they will add them in later but all it does is make me feel depressed that i hiked all the way there with a friend hoping to find something cool only to find nothing. The initial impression is really bad you know? One hidden cave off the map was long, had no mobs and only lead to a pond...=/

Me: Lets go to here! It looks interesting, we can fight mobs along the way!
Friend: Cool lets do it! *Excitement builds*
*Goes there eventually and finds the place basically useless. Disappointed immensely.*
Us: This place sucks...

I might just quit the game and keep tabs on it. I really want to like this game but i do not feel like paying for what they have now.

Loony BoB

10-12-2010, 10:57 AM

FFXI had an auto-sort? o_o I had to use Windower when I joined something like 6-7 years after it launched. =x Heh.

Exploring can pay off on occasion. There are so many caves that go to nothing but a pond, but that's with reason - for a fisherman, that's a valuable fishing spot on occasion and for me, as a miner, you can get valuable items from the quarries and mobs located in those caves. I've been exploring a lot lately, actually, and eventually came across some kind of shrine in a cave North-East of Drybone. =o It was very cool looking, didn't do anything at present but I understand that they are planning on it being a place where you can change your guardian by giving some kind of tribute to it. Interesting, but we'll see how that goes. Exploring can be done, though, yeah - it's just that it's only that: exploring. The results don't often end up with quests or rewards other than the thrill of exploring and finding something. Personally, though, that's all I need... if there were quests or rewards it wouldn't feel like exploring as everyone would be talking about it and it would be more expected that you went to that place, sort of like aetherytes... it would end up just being a place you're obligated to go to rather than feeling like a discovery. I've also found large machinery, sort of like factories in the sides of mountains. Of course there are the blatantly obvious airship docks, there's Mor Dhona (if you can get there - Danielle made it, I died next to her :( d'oh) and there are these weird tunnels that look like a giant ant-farm with a guy saying he'll kill you if you go past him. I've discovered a lot of beastmen while traveling, too... makes you wonder if they drop gear or not. =o

But yeah, I was disappointed with the towns, I'll give you that. The rest of the exploring is fun enough for me. Traveling to the more difficult aetherytes in particular was a great 'quest' for Danielle and I when we were in open beta, we've yet to get them all now, too. Finally got to Bluefog, though! Danielle has a few aetherytes in Coerthas and one in Mor Dhona, too.

Everyone has their own thoughts on the game, though, and if it's not got enough for you then it's understandable. I hope you come back later on when there is more content. :)

Carl the Llama

10-12-2010, 02:05 PM

EDIT BY BoB: Just regarding the whole "deluded/delusional/no offence" etc. crap, please keep that to PM's and, if you feel it's over the line completely, use the reported post thing. Please avoid calling people deluded or delusional where possible to avoid such clashes in the future. End of discussion (again, unless you wish to further it via PMs, although knowing you both I'm sure you're both capable of moving on easily enough).

With your regarding me being in the minority, do you truly believe that WoW fanboi's are not out to bash this game? your post seems to suggest it is so, and so in my mind your are saying that my thoughts of people bashing this game are wrong? Can you honestly say that you don't think WoW fanboi's are not out to bash this game regardless of how good it is?

Or maybe you though that I am in the minority of people who love this game, admittedly so I am, though the way you have responded makes me think its the former.

Aside from that I said it has the potential to do so, not that it will be so, and any gamer can readily agree that any online game has potential to become the best out there, they just have to listen to what people say and do what they think best for the community, and my opinion stems from the fact that I have played WoW for almost 5 years and I have left that game to play XIV, so no, I am not delusional I merely am stating what, given time and improvements could very well become the best MMO out there.

Yeah, you might come from a game where the developers actually know how to do this in a decent way. That's your problem, really. You're used to good management of a game from Blizzard. I, having played FF11 for way too long, have seen first hand how S-E again and again screw things up. So far, S-E hasn't really shown that they have learned much from their previous MMO. The people I talk with that play FF14 have all played FF11, and I'd rather listen to them than to a hopeful person coming from WoW, cause these know how to spot S-E's bullcrap.

You also might want to note that I have also played XI, and I also love that game, maybe I'm easy to satisfy when it comes to my games, but I'm not complaining, I like the game despite its flaws and in that I have no issue with what people say about how they do not like this game, I find many many people out there want games to be the be all end all and are disappointed when the game isn't and that is their problem, I myself love all the final fantasy series including X-2 and VIII, people build these games up and up and like BoB said in a previous post 1 person will tell 20 people that they don't like a game and 1 person in 20 will tell people that they like the game.

Mirage

10-12-2010, 03:30 PM

I love FF11 like a heroin addict loves heroin.

Yeargdribble

10-12-2010, 07:01 PM

It's a case of "My-10-year-old-established MMO can do this, this and this. Why can't this one?!"

SE doesn't get a pass on this. This is not their first MMO. They do have nearly 10 years of experience and have no excuses to have made the blunders they seem to have made. SE was horrible about listening to feedback in FFXI and only in the last years have they actually started listening to the playerbase and making some improvements.

Perhaps my opinion will be discounted because I haven't played FFXIV yet, but I am familiar with SE. I know their MO. They have terrible customer support and don't listen to their players. I love the flavor of FFXI and I'm sure at some point I'll enjoy FFXIV for the flavor.

There's going to be an issue of bias coming not only from people who are on a FF based forum, but also from people who bought. People are always apologists for things they pay a lot of money for so they don't have buyer's remorse.

I think expectations were generally too high for the game and it's causing a backlash. People were unrealistic in thinking it would be the perfect, most beautiful, most awesome be-all-end-all MMO. No MMO can live up to that. However, I think it's fair to say it's an unfinished project as that seems to be a point of unanimous criticism. Once again, while I think expectations shouldn't be ridiculous, they should be higher for a company that has created and run another MMO for nearly a decade. Just making it pretty isn't going to be enough.

Madame Adequate

10-12-2010, 07:20 PM

I just want to say that I really really really want to like FFXIV - I liked a lot of things about XI, and I was only put off by A) needing to party to do anything at all and B) the atrociously bad UI. In the first case that declined later, and it seems XIV is a lot better in this regard, but if anything the second point is even worse. I know there are people who don't have a problem with it, and there are games where I have soldiered gamely on through bad design because I found other aspects of the game the effort, but judging from this I simply don't see how I could, at this stage, get much enjoyment out of FFXIV.

No MMO is perfect at launch, but when you've made a successful MMO before, and you have plenty of other examples - both successful and not - to draw on, there is no excuse to make fundamental and elementary mistakes which, unless people are outright lying, FFXIV makes.

I do sincerely hope that with time it becomes something I want to play, despite this. I'm just not confident that it will.

Ouch!

10-12-2010, 07:41 PM

This may be a great deal of speculation, but I think it may be worth noting that FFXIV has been in development a good five years now. I think this may be an important factor in the types of mistakes that are being made with FFXIV. More specifically, the mistakes being made, such as a poor user interface, are the same types of mistakes that were made at FFXI's retail launch.

This is not a coincidence, nor is it a coincidence that many of these errors were rectified relatively late in FFXI's lifespan. I can't say for certain since I've hardly followed the distribution of the development teams for FFXI and FFXIV, but I would suppose the following: much of what was fixed in FFXI was fixed after the original development team shifted its efforts largely towards FFXIV. The same mistakes are being made because, quite frankly, they didn't learn from FFXI. They were never part of the clean up which was largely responsible for correcting many of the errors which made FFXI more difficult to play; as a result, their development of FFXIV does not reflect a great deal of the learning from FFXI.

If I'm correct, we will see many of the same mistakes. Hopefully it also means that FFXIV's development team can look back on FFXI and see what their replacements did to improve on the game so that the fixes come quicker this time around.

Del Murder

10-12-2010, 08:08 PM

I'm pretty sure that eventually FFXIV will be awesome like FFXI was. Reading some of the stuff on that list Gobo posted was great comedy. I guess people expected more at launch but that doesn't mean the game will always be like that, in fact it's almost 100% that it won't be.

I'm excited for the PS3 release because it appears the game was designed for a controller and it will look super awesome on my TV. The only problem is finding a way for Miriel and I to play together. :(

Yeargdribble

10-12-2010, 08:26 PM

No MMO is perfect at launch, but when you've made a successful MMO before, and you have plenty of other examples - both successful and not - to draw on, there is no excuse to make fundamental and elementary mistakes which, unless people are outright lying, FFXIV makes.

This is the point I can't hammer enough. However, I keep hearing the argument "FFXI wasn't great at launch but it improved and FFXIV will improve with time."

Think about this statement for a moment. Why should SE, who made an MMO that was horribly flawed initially be given a free pass to put out a game that is largely broken when they should've learned from experience? Sure, FFXIV is doing things that aren't directly analogous. They are new and will need tweaking, but in areas like the UI, why go from broken (FFXI) to brokener (FFXIV). They. Should. Know. Better.

Sure they want to distinguish themselves from the WoW clones, but that's like making s**t burgers to differentiate yourself from cheeseburgers. The UI should not be so wayward and if you think they will fix that you're likely mistaken. That would be a very difficult thing for them to fix now that the game is launched, so the players are stuck with less than stellar UI for the foreseeable future and most likely for the life of the game.

If you're giving SE slack, don't. Would you give Blizzard slack on their next MMO by saying "Well, WoW wasn't perfect at launch either."? No. Most likely you'd scratch your head at how a company that had years to learn from mistakes and perfect their craft managed to make something crappy. You would call it lazy and sloppy.

Ouch!

10-12-2010, 08:29 PM

Loony BoB

10-12-2010, 08:48 PM

The UI should not be so wayward and if you think they will fix that you're likely mistaken. That would be a very difficult thing for them to fix now that the game is launched, so the players are stuck with less than stellar UI for the foreseeable future and most likely for the life of the game.

And the complaints about the game are not falling upon deaf ears. The number one complaint that the team has heard is about the user interface, and that is the current top priority for the team. Performance-smoothing is next on the list, followed by content and new features. Each team is working on the game to improve it, and every piece of feedback is being compiled worldwide and taken into account for development.

In all honesty though, aside from the lag and the lack of sorting of items, I'm fine with the UI. Maybe it's because I don't know what I'm missing out on because I don't play WoW, but I'm happy.

Yeargdribble

10-12-2010, 09:16 PM

I provided an explanation. I didn't say it was a good one or that they shouldn't have known better regardless. Obviously mistakes have been made that should not have been made. Am I going to forget the game forever because of it? No. I'll wait for the inevitable improvements and deal with it in the meantime. If it's a deal-breaker for you, that's fine. I'm willing to wait because I think the game has enormous potential otherwise.

Yeah. I know it's hard to tell with how harsh I tend to be, but I'm not saying that it should be a deal-breaker. As someone jaded by SE, I'm just saying that I'm disappointed, but I full expect that I'll be playing FFXIV within a year and that it will be a solid game.

In all honesty though, aside from the lag and the lack of sorting of items, I'm fine with the UI. Maybe it's because I don't know what I'm missing out on because I don't play WoW, but I'm happy.

This is also fine. Ignorance truly is bliss. I didn't understand why so many people hated the FFXI interface before I played WoW and similar UI'd MMOs. Now I find it a little more frustrating. That said, I think the bile ejected toward the UI is greatly exaggerated. There's certainly the case of people being so used to WoW type interfaces that they won't give the FFXI UI a chance.

To call it unplayable is certainly hyperbolic. I've adjusted well to the FFXI UI, but I also know that it's far from optimal. I wish they hadn't taken such a similar direction with FFXIV, but in the long run it's not going to stop me from playing the game once some things are ironed out. That doesn't mean I'm happy with it. I really hope that SE learns even more before FFXIX (or whichever is their next MMO) and doesn't just pigheadedly keep trying to blaze trails with crap.

Loony BoB

10-12-2010, 09:56 PM

Rostum

10-12-2010, 10:43 PM

This is also fine. Ignorance truly is bliss. I didn't understand why so many people hated the FFXI interface before I played WoW and similar UI'd MMOs. Now I find it a little more frustrating. That said, I think the bile ejected toward the UI is greatly exaggerated. There's certainly the case of people being so used to WoW type interfaces that they won't give the FFXI UI a chance.

FFXIV's interface isn't that bad. It really isn't. You can't compare it or think of it to be worse than FFXI's.

The only issues the interface has is menu lag (which is not a design flaw but something that really needs to be fixed) and lacking in hotkeys (which I'm sure would be easy enough for SE to add and perhaps they will).

You can't really say "Well WoW's interface does this, this and this" when the games as a whole function differently to each other.

Most of the complaints people have are because they have to click one extra button when talking to an aetheryte - which is not a huge deal and it doesn't affect anything at all (in fact it doesn't even take 1 second to do). Or there's the battle interface, which is fairly identicle to most MMO's but you get the "lag" of the character pulling out his weapon - again this isn't a really fast paced MMO where you need instant action. Of course if you don't like the slower paced then fair enough, but you can't really say it's a broken interface because of it.

I don't know. As someone who's played FFXI, WoW and Aion all from release, I don't really see where all this negativity about FFXIV's interface is coming from except for the lag and lack of some hotkeys/auto-sorting. Which are features that I would hope SE never think twice about putting in.

On another note, a recent interview with Sage Sundi said that SE are listening and they are reading the premium fan based forums. But really they need to improve on communication, not just listening.

Yeargdribble

10-12-2010, 11:14 PM

Ignorance isn't the best word, more just not having used other systems - although I get the point of what you're saying and it runs very true in my case, I suppose. But then, people have said EVE's system was bad, too, and I thought it was amazing. Go figure. :p FFXI's, though, I never really enjoyed at all. I liked the game regardless because of the great community.

SEMANTICS: I actually think ignorance is the perfect word. It's just that we've learned to connote the word ignorant with stupid, but it really means no such thing. Most people take exception to being called ignorant, but it's really not an insult and I didn't mean it as such. Outside of the connotations it just means being unaware which is precisely your stiuations.

I liked (and do like) FFXI for many reasons. The story, though sometimes haphazardly constructed, really made you feel connected more. Problem was, you didn't get to be involved unless you leveled quite high. I also just love the FF flavor with White Mages and other very FF thing. I liked the community and I appreciated them far more after playing a game like WoW (though LOTRO still had a far better community when I played it).

On another note, a recent interview with Sage Sundi said that SE are listening and they are reading the premium fan based forums. But really they need to improve on communication, not just listening.

He has said this before. SE in general has claimed this before. For years when they said that nobody needed windower. When they claimed RMT wasn't a problem. When they said that Ullikummi being a bottleneck in sky was a non-issue. AV being unbeatable wasn't an issue. Sure, they've cleaned up, but they blatantly ignored the userbase of FFXI for nearly 5 years before they started making adjustments. All the while they claimed they were listening.

Most of the complaints people have are because they have to click one extra button when talking to an aetheryte - which is not a huge deal and it doesn't affect anything at all (in fact it doesn't even take 1 second to do).

This type of annoyance does add up. In FFXI there are around 3 confirmation boxes to list an item on the AH. When you're trying to quickly list lots of items this takes forever. There's no need to have so much confirmation. Extra confirmation stuff is very annoying. WoW did a great job any time the community complained about the redundancy of these things. Blizz didn't just write off the players and say it's not a real issue and the whiners need to shut it. They changed it because it's annoying in a game that is at its heart repetitive to have mundane repetitions shoved down your throat.

Or there's the battle interface, which is fairly identicle to most MMO's but you get the "lag" of the character pulling out his weapon - again this isn't a really fast paced MMO where you need instant action. Of course if you don't like the slower paced then fair enough, but you can't really say it's a broken interface because of it.

I don't care if it's not a fast, action based MMO. This is probably my biggest gripe with FFXI. I hate how long it takes to enter combat. What I hate more is trying to enter combat right after finishing a mob.

You must wait longer to perform that action.
You must wait longer to perform that action.
You must wait longer to perform that action.
You must wait longer to perform that action.
You must wait longer to perform that action.

You say it's identical, but I don't remember such an issue in LOTRO, Aion or WoW. You can stream quickly from one foe to the next without hesitation. There is no noticeable lag in drawing a weapon. If I hit a macro in WoW it goes off immediately. Leaving combat with one foe doesn't stop me from entering new combat for 5+ seconds.

Even worse is trying to do certain actions on the AH or check your delivery box. There is NO REASON that it should make you wait 30 seconds to check again. There's no reason it should be so impossible to look up the going rate of an item on the AH in FFXI and there's no reason they shoud've foregone AHs in FFXIV.

The concept of a player-drive economy with only player-sold/traded items is cool... as a concept. In reality it's smurfing annoying.

Rostum

10-12-2010, 11:41 PM

You say it's identical, but I don't remember such an issue in LOTRO, Aion or WoW. You can stream quickly from one foe to the next without hesitation. There is no noticeable lag in drawing a weapon. If I hit a macro in WoW it goes off immediately. Leaving combat with one foe doesn't stop me from entering new combat for 5+ seconds.

You can in FFXIV. Once you've drawn your weapon you don't put it away after each battle, you can just continue on to the next mob without any delay what-so-ever. The reason they have a two different modes is the way the game is set up, you can mix and match abilities to pretty much create any kind of job you want which would be unfair if you could do that during battle, so they had to impliment a passive mode and a slight delay (2 seconds at most to pull out the weapon).

And I don't know why you're arguing FFXI's ways when this game is not FFXI and I had no intention of talking about FFXI. Considering none of what you've mentioned has really been an issue at all (other than UI lag, which SE acknowledge and are fixing).

Also, who's to say SE aren't going to be fixing stuff via player feedback? They have the Lodestone website (central hub for FFXIV) where you can specifically send feedback to the developers, as well as SE saying they plan to have a patch each week (correct me if I'm wrong). The game has only really just been released, and a lot of issues have been fixed since, so you can't expect them to fix everything instantly as soon as a player complains about it.

Give them a chance, even knowing how bad they were during the first 5-6 years of FFXI. It has always been an issue in Japan with developers , which is something that is being remedied and it looks like SE are really trying to do that. And that's not an easy task by any means.

I'm not going to completely defend SE like a rabid fanboi, but I'm trying to give this game a fair go whereas most people are just completeing dismissing it because of their own bias. In saying that, there's heaps of issues that need to be fixed or else I'm out.

The concept of a player-drive economy with only player-sold/traded items is cool... as a concept. In reality it's smurfing annoying.

I agree, it hasn't exactly sold me. All it really needs is a good way to search for items, which they are putting in. You'd get the same issues with an auction house at release since no economy has been established. The word is they'll end up putting one in soon enough.

Madame Adequate

10-13-2010, 03:13 AM

SE may well fix things, but I think that expecting them to do so is incredible, in the sense of beyond credibility. They have a deserved reputation as the most obsequious, unfriendly, unhelpful MMO dev in the business, so I'm not going to say improvement is impossible, but I'm certainly going to say it's unlikely. Hell, there's breaking news right now that SE are overzealously handing out bans and suspensions for naming violations

FFXIV ToS: 3.5 Naming Right. You may not use any name or other intellectual property belonging to SQUARE ENIX or any other third party in your use of the Game (for example, naming a character after a celebrity, company, product, or superhero)

- the convention in the industry is that you get forced to change your name if someone is annoyed enough to report you, nothing else. To suspend or ban people for it boggles the mind. They may be within their rights to do it, but it's really like they're trying some sort of Springtime for Hitler thing at this point.

Rostum

10-13-2010, 03:50 AM

Yeah, that is fairly insane. I'd have to say there must be more to it, as the way they dealt with it in FFXI was just forcing the person to change their name and not ban them - especially when I see people like "Chrono Trigger" running around in FFXIV. But if it's true, it's very bad...

Loony BoB

10-13-2010, 09:17 AM

If that's true and there is no resolution then it is most certainly a shame. However, I wouldn't complain if the likes of Fortywaystosuckballs (retainer) was forced into a rename - amusing as it is for us. :D Probably still there, though, oddly.

The sad thing I find is that when they do fix things, people just complain anyway, they find a way to rant at SE regardless. It's this kind of person that I find to be ungrateful and entirely likely to be a person who is only posting in forums in order to make the game less appealling, like they have some kind of vendetta against the company and/or game.

If they fix something, people should commend them, not slate them. If they add a feature that was requested, people should commend them, not slate them. If they do anything we ask them to do, they should be thanked. But no, most people will say "About time. God, this should have been there from the start. I hate this game." and while maybe they should have had it there from the start, that doesn't change the fact that they did something you asked of them and now they are starting on the next thing that is requested. If people were a little more reasonable towards the company then I'd have a bit more respect for their opinion.

I think EoFF is actually really lucky that we don't have many, if any, of these kind of people registered here and actively posting in this forum. They're everywhere on other forums and that's why I don't actually post there. Someone out there should make a dedicated FFXIV forum which is restricted to people who actually like the game. If you don't like something about the game, sure, complain. But if you don't like the game at all, don't spend days upon days complaining about everything and slating SE at every turn. I mean, I don't like most racing games and probably wouldn't like American Football games as they just aren't my thing. Likewise I was never a big Tomb Raider fan despite being a massive Uncharted fan. Does that mean I should register at the Tomb Raider forums and complain about everything I can because it's not Uncharted? Urgh.

This is more a rant at the people who are out there at various sites providing user-feedback and user-reviews and discouraging people from playing. I think some guy got it right when he made some article about "Is FFXIV the right game for you?" and the most important thing he said is a prerequisite for the game was that you want to like it. I'm sure there are people out there who would slate FFXIV even if it was a perfect clone of their favourite game, be that WoW or Gran Turismo.

There are still people out there who say they want to like the game that are just unable to, and again, if you don't like the game at all then that's that, man. Just because it's a Final Fantasy doesn't mean you have to like it and complain until you do. If it's simply not your thing, don't worry about it, there will be other MMO's. Basically, people should really complain about games only if they like the whole ideas behind the game but don't like certain aspects of it, such as bugs, economy, etc. In which case complain about those things, but don't complain that the game is crap... just don't buy it, don't subscribe. It is that simple!

Yeargdribble

10-13-2010, 12:26 PM

I agree, it hasn't exactly sold me. All it really needs is a good way to search for items, which they are putting in. You'd get the same issues with an auction house at release since no economy has been established. The word is they'll end up putting one in soon enough.

I completely agree here. If there were an AH system people would still complain because they don't understand how in-game economies work. The AH would still need to be stocked and it would be wild-west in pricing since nobody had a good idea of relative values. I'm still not sold on the idea of no AH though. Even with a search function the bazaar system would require you to travel across the world to get the item, would it not? Perhaps even chasing someone who was on the move.

Now if they allowed a (unrealistic) system where you could search and buy instantly from any bazaar across the world, that would be kinda handy and very convenient to both buyers and sellers, but that's not SE's way.

And I don't know why you're arguing FFXI's ways when this game is not FFXI and I had no intention of talking about FFXI. Considering none of what you've mentioned has really been an issue at all (other than UI lag, which SE acknowledge and are fixing).

It's less specifically about the game of FFXI, but my acquaintance with SE during my long tenure in FFXI. It makes me doubt them greatly. They were horrible to the players and most specifically to the non-JP players. The Lodestone thing seems like a step in the right direction, but after their 8 year record in FFXI, you might understand why I would be skeptical. Their pacing in fixing issues has been historically miserable.

While they are currently fixing things quickly, that makes sense for a game right out of the gate. They are trying to retain subs and fix the most obviously broken issues. Buggy stuff goes fist. But when it comes to issues that make the game frustrating but not necessarily broken, they usually just say "Deal with it!" or claim it's a non-problem

Seriously... you still have to meet in person to trade link pearls? Who thought this was a good idea? I get that it makes the world feel large and adds awe in scope when you have to travel and meet people from far away places, but let's get real for a second. Sometimes people just want to play with their friends. Sometimes their friends don't all want to start in the same place. This makes it ridiculous difficult to play together the way World Passes did back in FFXI (and how many years did it take them to fix that.... too little, too late).

@Rostum
I don't really think you're being a rabid fanboy. I think your criticism of my criticism is very fair. I completely understand your point because I despite it when people heap hate on something due to unfair expectations or other silly reasons. I really dislike it when it becomes popular to hate something and everyone start's joining in. Just know that this isn't where I'm coming from. I've just been burnt by SE. I played FFXI most hardcore during a time when SE couldn't give two s**ts about their players.

What's most frustrating is that they've made so many improvements lately to FFXI that it makes no sense for them to seem like they've taken a step backward with FFXIV. There are certain issues that simply don't make sense right out of the gate.

The naming issue MILF is talking about is one of those things where SE is just downright retarded in customer relations. This kind of thing makes no one happy and there's no really good reason for it. You would think that those running a game that's getting unanimously bad press would try hard not to add fuel to the fire by pissing off more people.

SE just shows me over and over how out of touch they are.

Loony BoB

10-13-2010, 12:51 PM

I agree, it hasn't exactly sold me. All it really needs is a good way to search for items, which they are putting in. You'd get the same issues with an auction house at release since no economy has been established. The word is they'll end up putting one in soon enough.

I completely agree here. If there were an AH system people would still complain because they don't understand how in-game economies work. The AH would still need to be stocked and it would be wild-west in pricing since nobody had a good idea of relative values. I'm still not sold on the idea of no AH though. Even with a search function the bazaar system would require you to travel across the world to get the item, would it not? Perhaps even chasing someone who was on the move.
Nope - well, I suppose the bazaar system would work that way, but the market wards use a retainer-system. Basically an NPC who stands around selling your crap for you at a 10% tax (will become 5% if you sell things in the right wards once the system is updated on Friday). So you'd still have to find the retainer in a room, basically. It's not that hard, but would be much easier if more of them would load than just the ones standing next to you (this little process is obviously done to decrease lag, but it's a pain anyway and I hope it's someday fixed so you can see more people at a distance when in crowded areas).

Seriously... you still have to meet in person to trade link pearls? Who thought this was a good idea? I get that it makes the world feel large and adds awe in scope when you have to travel and meet people from far away places, but let's get real for a second. Sometimes people just want to play with their friends. Sometimes their friends don't all want to start in the same place. This makes it ridiculous difficult to play together the way World Passes did back in FFXI (and how many years did it take them to fix that.... too little, too late).
You still have to meet them, but I personally don't mind that at all. Let's put it this way: The other day, Bleys got a new character. The new character (and his existing one) were in Gridania. I wanted to give him some cash, so I teleported there and met him. It took about, what, a minute or two? That's fine by me. It gives me a little "quest" to meet him and it encourages members to travel around. But all the same, it still takes seconds. The only time it can be a hassle is if you're never online at the same point... but then, if that's the case, it can be resolved by setting up pearlsacks who are on at that time (something which I intend on doing for Fat Chocobos once I get a better idea of who is going to be here for the long haul - I know Ouch!, Del Murder and Miriel can expect them, and Rostum might get one since he's in a different timezone to most of us).

I suppose people can complain that it uses up their anima to teleport, but I play the game a lot and rarely teleport unless someone is waiting on me, and haven't dropped below 79 anima yet. If you were to travel in large groups, it's easy to teleport to dozens of places in a day and only use up 6 of your 100 anima (generating 4 in that day).

I guess I'm just very good at finding good things even where others would not. xD But yeah, SE are certainly out of touch when it comes to PR. Did you know they are advertising for two PR positions in North America? Go figure. :p

Rostum

10-13-2010, 10:50 PM

Even with a search function the bazaar system would require you to travel across the world to get the item, would it not? Perhaps even chasing someone who was on the move.

That might be a slight concern. You are able to teleport (uses up Anima though) to other cities and visit their market wards, however.

But when it comes to issues that make the game frustrating but not necessarily broken, they usually just say "Deal with it!" or claim it's a non-problem.

Or that it's "Working as intended". XD

Just know that this isn't where I'm coming from. I've just been burnt by SE. I played FFXI most hardcore during a time when SE couldn't give two s**ts about their players.

What's most frustrating is that they've made so many improvements lately to FFXI that it makes no sense for them to seem like they've taken a step backward with FFXIV. There are certain issues that simply don't make sense right out of the gate.

SE just shows me over and over how out of touch they are.

Oh trust me, I agree. I hate how SE dealt with FFXI up until recently. I guess I just had been waiting for FFXIV for a few years and shelled out for the CE that I'm really trying to look past all that (but they aren't making it easy, lol). Again I still haven't been able to play much, so I guess I'm not as jaded as those who are reaching physical ranks in their mid 40's already (lol for fatigue system).

Yeargdribble

10-14-2010, 03:03 AM

Carl the Llama

10-14-2010, 06:48 AM

I guess I'm just very good at finding good things even where others would not. xD

This tends to be me most of the time. SE just frustrates me with their lack of serious care for their players. But for most other games I try to find things I like. I like pretty much every main series FF game even though I like some more than others. There's always something good to find about a game. It's just easier for me to be negative as an outside observer who is familiar with how SE runs MMOs.

It's also easy understand why people would want to defend their purchase of FFXI, especially if they got the CE.

I would never defend a game -even the CE I got of this game- if I did not think it was worth it, as I said before, I like the game alot, more then that, I can honestly see myself playing this game for a very long time, I am not trying to defend my purchase as sure as I am that I was glad that I got the purchase its more that I genuinely like the game for the game, only today did I get my first party and I had a great time just me and some random guy I got together with to level together killing dodo's and I see great potential for the battle system, bringing together the multiple jobs is to me a truly awesome feature that I have only seen in a smaller dimension with XI's sub-job system, in this I feel they have perfectly balanced the jobs to be ideal with your leveling any job.

Which in turn makes me think of the leveling cap, I really think people who level 1 job above others are really handicapping themselves, to be able to heal myself while using a melee job is a truly fantastic system and I applaud SE on the way they have executed the class system, you truly do not need a set class, you could have a group of any class and still perform really well as most players level other jobs that have healing abilities so your always golden, clearly one of -if not the- best class systems I have seen in a game and one of the very main reasons I think this game is going to be truly great.

People who judge this game without actually playing this game I feel sorry for your loss, you truly do not know whether or not if you will be taken in by this game as both me and BoB seem to be, you really should give it a try if you are able to, after all, you can't judge a book by its cover.

Lionx

10-14-2010, 08:44 AM

Lol...so my friend leveled up a Conjurer for some spells for his Gladiator today. He was finished so he tried to reallocate his points. Apparently it only takes 5 points off of EVERY stat to reallocate..then you gotta wait 45 minutes to do that again. He is now basically stuck since his stats are all mage oriented and not Tank oriented...and only getting weaker overall since it won't let him choose what stats to remove or exchange.

Great way to promote diversity SE...no idea wtf they were thinking.

Loony BoB

10-14-2010, 09:32 AM

Given that you can change immediately at any point in the game, I think it's fair that they balance that out. However, it should also be noted that these aren't the only stats that determine everything - individual classes also have stats. That's why your HP changes every time you change your job. If I were to change to mage but keep the point allotment as it is, the mage would still have significantly higher MP and significantly lower HP. The point allotments can be adjusted but to think that they make up the bulk of things is to be easily misled. My marauder can take a load of hits off some enemies while using my low-rank fisherman left me extremely vulnerable against those same mobs.

As for the reasoning behind limited point-changes, I am sure it's there - possibly to discourage people from getting the idea that you can just change from battle to battle constantly adjusting to suit the enemy, which for me would take away any challenge from the game. The fact you can change class so easily in this game - my time in FFXI involved a long travel back and forth just to change job - shows that the system is still effective.

Yearg: Like Kaiser, can't say I'm one to defend a game just because I bought it, or because I got CE. I just don't get stressed out easily. I've got a bunch of games I've purchased, disliked (or just not really got into) and not resorted to continuing to playing it and defending it on forums - that's a little too masochistic for my tastes! I tend to just put them away and forget about them, maybe eventually trading them in. But most likely just collecting dust. :D I am sure that there are some people who defend the game in this way, probably. I feel a little sorry for those people. But if people say they're having fun and it comes across that way, then that's what really matters.

The social side has really started moving along quickly in the last couple of days. While meeting up with enano's character, I met a newbie who didn't even know how to get out of town recently, I think he'd literally just got out of the initial story instances. I helped him out by showing him the way out of Gridania and how to access the map and go to Bentbranch. Gave him loads of /tells and perhaps in time he'll join our linkshell. So far he seems cool, though. I think the social side is what was missing for me - my enthusiasm for the game has increased after I spent a couple of days barely touching the game due to being physically tired in recent times. :)

Lionx

10-14-2010, 10:11 AM

I get the 45 min thing, but the limited stat allocation given back is just a waste of your time. What happens when you level higher? Its just a waste of your time entirely stupid.

EDIT: Think of it this way, WoW's dual speccing only costs money, which is similar in a way to the job changes in FFXIV. But they only cost a bit of money, cannot be used in battle, and no cooldown. Theres a cost but it doesn't eat up your time stupidly. They even save your Action Bars and stuff so it just automatically switches.

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/worldofwarcraft/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-49068234&pid=534914

Loony BoB

10-14-2010, 10:56 AM

It won't just be 5 points for each stat when you get to a higher level. As I mentioned, I got 8 points per stat last time I did that, and that was some time ago (I'm now level 29 - I'm guessing it was closer to level 20 when I did it). I understand you get more if you haven't done it for a while, too, so the longer you wait, the better off you'll be.

As mentioned, though, it won't change things dramatically. This game, in my experience, is not a number crunching game, at least not at the moment. There have been occasions where I forgot to enter my point allocations over the course of a few gained levels, then did it all in one go. At which point I noticed... no major difference. I'm sure there is a difference, but I simply didn't notice it. If they do, good for them, I dunno.

I'd complain if this had a noticeable impact on my gaming but it doesn't, and therefore I do wonder if there is any reason for anyone to complain about this at all besides "That sounds bad, I'm sure it's bad! It must be bad!" Sort of like the fatigue system - people complain about that like crazy but I do wonder how many of them have even hit fatigue at all. I know I haven't.

EDIT: I don't want to have to spend money to be able to do 10 classes. "It's only a bit of money" - so? It's still paying for something that games such as FFXIV have by default. ;) There will always be features one game has that another doesn't, and there will always be people questioning why. I'm sure there's a reason. *shrug* They wouldn't have done it this way for :bou::bou::bou::bou:s and giggles as it would have been easier to allow complete reallocation than not.

Lionx

10-14-2010, 11:00 AM

Its still a stupid limitation. I don't know about long term effects of this but so far, everything (even if it doesn't affect me yet or currently) is just so stupid and disappointing...

I do have a feeling that VIT/MND would be very important (since they affect your HP and MP values respectively) moreso than we think. But as of now, i am done. I am going to ride out the remainder of my free month, quit, play WoW then take a look back at FFXIV a year from now to see if its worth my money. I want to like this game, and maybe it really can be awesome in the future. But as it is currently i feel burden-ed when clicking to launch the game, and i don't want to pay for that.

Loony BoB

10-14-2010, 11:04 AM

I upped my VIT by a couple of points the othe day and I swear my HP bar didn't go up. That was somewhat annoying, but probably not directly related to point reallocation. Maybe there is a restriction linked between rank and physical level so that rank 1 people don't have 5000 health because they have a massive physical level. I know my physical level is roughly double any of my ranks. For people like me, I'm getting the feeling that stats won't count much in the immediate future, at least not until I rank up significantly.

But yeah, anyone who reads my recent blog entry will attest to me thinking that if you don't like the game, then it's pretty straight-forward that it's simply not for you. Obviously. xD I probably ranted more about people "wanting" to like a game than anything!

Lionx

10-14-2010, 11:13 AM

I think a friend of mine said its related to the job you are on and the rank. So it does factor it in.

Rostum

10-14-2010, 10:57 PM

I've been hearing a lot of stories about people getting hacked and then SE just outright banning them. For instance a couple just bought the game, installed it and played for 2 hours, then the next day they were banned.

Awesome job SE.

Lionx

10-15-2010, 02:54 AM

FFXIVBlog.com - FFXIV Review from Gamespot (http://www.ffxivblog.com/content.php/408-FFXIV-Review-from-Gamespot)

Found it interesting, esp the comments that include jpn reviews...

http://www.ffxivblog.com/showthread.php/617-JP-s-Amazon-Thoughts

Also UI Lag explained: http://www.ffxivpro.com/forum/topic/15039/ui-lag/
----

I also found out the other day that you need to wear your Onion Helm BEFORE you die for it to take effect. I died, put on my helm and began to run back to my party. Only to die again 2 minutes or so later to an Ant Lion just as weakness wears off. I die and respawn, and begin my trek again. Just a couple steps after i run out of my Camp area the Weakness effects starts blinking then promptly wears off quickly not even reaching half a minute.

Wtf man. What were they thinking?

EDIT: Ok maybe i am complaining too much...but little things like this happen too often and it just stacks up...=/

Loony BoB

10-15-2010, 07:32 AM

I also found out the other day that you need to wear your Onion Helm BEFORE you die for it to take effect. I died, put on my helm and began to run back to my party. Only to die again 2 minutes or so later to an Ant Lion just as weakness wears off. I die and respawn, and begin my trek again. Just a couple steps after i run out of my Camp area the Weakness effects starts blinking then promptly wears off quickly not even reaching half a minute.
If it didn't even reach half a minute then that's possibly a bug. Weakness lasts for three minutes, and if you wear the helm, it lasts 1 minute and 30 seconds. Also, when Danielle died after me (not wearing the helm), she put on the helm and weakness wore off before me. So you don't need to wear it at the time you die - unless they've changed things in last week's patch (it was before then that this happened).

New patch today! Market wards are being organised. As a seller, I'm really happy with this. It's not going to have a search feature that I know of, but just not having to race post-server-reboot just to get a retainer into the first ward will be great.

Now I just need to decide where to put my retainer... I sell three things at the moment, and each of them belong to a different ward. x_x

Lionx

10-15-2010, 10:50 PM

http://www.eorzeapedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/ourbadtrialextension.jpg

FINAL FANTASY XIV, The Lodestone (http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl/topics/detail?id=c07a85c2f170a53057f5a39f56e6fc02b03b1184)

LOL...if its a free month then alright...cuz if it wasn't free i think i would have quit regardless if these were coming later before its over.

Eorzeapedia: Final Fantasy XIV (FFXIV, FF14) News, Wiki, Forums, Community and more » Square Enix: “Our Bad” (http://www.eorzeapedia.com/2010/10/15/square-enix-our-bad/)

Although NOW it seems more like a beta...like i expected this during beta. I am still skeptical but i will take this as a positive note. I just hope the amount of people being fanboys won't take it too far.

Loony BoB

10-15-2010, 10:57 PM

You can spot the trolls pretty easily right now, they're the ones who are saying that SE are crap despite all the recent updates. I, for one, am loving that I don't have to pay for an extra month - and I would have. Still, the free trial is one thing, the details of their planned updates for the UI show how well they're listening. Almost every one of my complaints has been dealt with. Just need more content (maybe the December version update?) and an AH (although the search ward function will need to be tested first once it's live) and I'd have to actually put thought into what I want next.

On a sidenote, man, the wards are better to move around in, now. Sadly, a lot of the retainers aren't selling the right things in the right wards. It's a shame that a good idea isn't quite being put to use at the moment. I did however manage to sell a few pickaxes real damned quick by putting my retainer in the correct ward, and have also purchased some undyed canvas at a cheap rate in the tailor's ward which meant I could make my Birdsbeak Hamer <3 I'm so happy. :D

Lionx

10-15-2010, 11:00 PM

Honestly the trolls are both ways...there are some that are SO riding on SE's #@$%'s that its amazing. There are others that are haters straight out though that i wondered why they even picked up the game to begin with. But no side is innocent.

Miriel

10-15-2010, 11:46 PM

The person on FFXiV blog said:

Perhaps a little bad press is good for Square Enix, so they could really get together and fix those game-breaking problems such as UI lag.

And I think that's EXACTLY what's happening and exactly what needed to happen. Yes, there were lots of harsh reviews, lots of super upset fans, lots of disgruntled threads, but imho this is a GOOD thing. They're rolling out positive changes at lightening speed. Throwing in an extra free month because they're aware of how unsatisfied people were, and I don't think that would have happened if everything just kinda went, "Oh, I'm sure Square will fix things if we just stay patient. There's tons of positive aspects of the game, don't focus on the negatives!"

I truly think that the overwhelmingly backlash has spurred Square to get things back on track in a way that nothing else would have prompted them to do so. Money talks, you know?

I feel confident now that the game will be in pretty great shape by the time the PS3 launch comes around.

It was also super interesting reading the reviews from Japanese players. Thanks for the link Lionx!

Del Murder

10-16-2010, 12:19 AM

I agree. I'm sure a lot of this stuff would have been addressed eventually, but I think the speed at which it is being worked on along with the additional free month is a direct result of the backlash from customers. No way this would have came if people didn't complain.

So the lesson is: always complain.

Renmiri

11-02-2010, 06:25 AM

It is impossible that the developers did not understand that the release date was set way too early. Someone in the company smurfed up real bad by deciding to release it several months before it was done
4 words:
World of Warcraft Cataclysm

They had to launch it before the next wow or they would have a very tough competitor eating their lunch.

I'm on Wow's beta and the Dec 7th release date seems awful soon. A lot of bugs are still around. I think Blizzard pushed it up because of FFXIV :p

With that said, my mate who was on WoW beta loves FF and can't stand WoW anymore. He got FFXIV eager to love it. He stopped playing it after 3 days, cursing up a storm. FFXIV retail is worse than WoW's Alpha according to him. Reading the reviews and watching the videos I would have to agree. The WoW beta bugs are annoying but most of the game is there. FFXIV seems to be missing a lot of content and to be full of "placeholder" NPC, placeholder quests, unfinished story lines...

It might not be a fair comparison. WoW has had 10 years of lore and is just expanding on it. FFXIV is just starting a new world. But guess what ? They will be on the game store shelf side by side at Christmas. They will be side by side at your friends' house and yours. Guess which game will be returned to the store and which game won't ?

I think SE was wrong to have released such an unfinished game, merely a month from the largest MMO around launching an expansion. And might have compromised the game's future. In a few months no one will remember FFXIV came earlier to the market. But all will remember the bad reviews for ages.

Loony BoB

11-02-2010, 01:16 PM

I'm curious. I've never been at a launch of an MMO before, but I expected the lack of content. This is not a concern to me as I know that content will, inevitably, be introduced in version updates and expansions. You're right in that it is unfair to compare them in that regard.

But my curiousity extends to things beyond content for that reason. Was he cursing up a storm for any other reason than content? Nobody who is after masses of content should really be playing an MMO at launch. For me, it's about being part of the launch, the experience of it all. It's something I've never done before, as mentioned, and perhaps that's part of why I enjoy it. There is a lack of things to do and I'll hold my hands up in that regard, but as said, it's okay because it's a "new" MMO. I'm sure at many other launches they didn't have even 10% of the content they have 8-10 years later. Not even close. I've been told FFXI had similar content at launch and now it's said that FFXI has so much content that new players don't know where to begin. Hell, even after a few months of playing FFXI a lot, I still didn't know what to do - it was great, don't get me wrong, I think that's a good thing. But it goes to show how much content gets introduced over time. This is something that should always be expected.

Perhaps he's not happy with the core mechanics behind the game, though? Experienced some kind of bug? I'm not sure. I've rarely experienced any kind of bugs since retail launch, personally. And it's pretty clear for me that SE are doing things already, improving the system. Content is, supposedly, coming soon. I hope it is, for the game's sake. At the beginning the UI was what most people complained about. A lot of that griping has gone now, it seems - it's been a while since I heard it. But they're working on that now anyway. The biggest gripe I see nowadays seems to be that people are getting bored due to the lack of content, and this is a concern for me too, but as said, I expected as much regardless and am holding out for a few months before I really offer judgement. I want to see how the game develops rather than giving it a month and then ragequitting, let alone a mere 3 days. I guess the game just wasn't for him, because in 3 days I didn't get much done, personally.

I find the people who dislike this game the most are the people who want a finished game. Not just a "really good launch" but a finished, ten year old game. That's what these people are comparing it to and that's why they're being disappointed. Square Enix seem to be focusing more on ensuring that the game isn't broken first and then adding things, ensuring they don't break the game, and then adding more after that. Little bits, but regularly enough for me. Which I see as a good thing. If they sort out the "make sure the core game isn't broken" bits first, then they can get it out of the way and start working on bigger and better things to add to the game. Like Ishgard. That's one part of the game I think should have been in the launch that was not.

Renmiri

11-03-2010, 10:48 PM

Content and UI mostly.

He is a big fan of FFVII where you could explore the entire world and talk to every NPC. And if there is one thing we can expect from SE is the depth of the story. Heck, even FFXII had tons of little stories for npcs and quests! I had reservations about the main plot in XII but the depth and detail they went into each little NPC and hunt was amazing.

So I guess he went in expecting FFVII or at least Crisis Core and got... a blank world ...

On early WoW beta the goblins and worgen walked around with little magic cubes on their heads, named "placeholder" since the helmet models weren't done. Infamously a druid skill was temporarily named "NOM NOM NOM" (http://twitpic.com/2itqsm) till they found a proper name, and some bosses dialog to start a battle still had "placeholder" till very recently. But we are now a month from launch and all content is there.

My friend was shocked at the lack of content of FFXIV and how hard and weird the UI was. And trust me, he really wanted to love FFXIV. He is tired of WoW and really wants a FF like MMO, deep in story, gorgeous graphics, awesome music, relaxed "explore world" non linear gameplay.... But what he found was worse than alpha, let alone retail quality.

Ouch!

11-04-2010, 12:54 AM

You're comparing the "beta" for an expansion and the beta for an entire game. You're comparing adjustments and additions to a game that has been out for seven years and the initial release of a game. Of course one's going to be significantly more developed than the other. If you want to make a fair comparison between World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy XIV, go look at the status of WoW's retail release. It was nothing short of a disaster--pretty much par for course for every MMORPG out there. I don't mean to say that to excuse the status of FFXIV's launch, but it's something that people should keep in mind when buying. What matters is what the company does the game after the retail launch and how they build on the product. That is where Blizzard has been extremely successful.

Del Murder

11-04-2010, 01:11 AM

Yeah, comparing an expansion to a brand new game is kind of silly. I really have little doubt that FFXIV will end up being a great game. It just sucks that the launch wasn't as epic as many had hoped.

Lionx

11-04-2010, 02:42 AM

Old School WoW: Patch 0.7 (http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/06/08/old-school-wow-patch-0-7/#continued)
& patch after
WoW -> Patch Notes (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/patch-8-17-04.shtml)

Theres other patch notes you can read up about original WoW beta, but the quick 'fatigue' change they had within those beta months were great. I personally feel THATS how the fatigue system should have worked...instead of punishing people it gives a boost to those that don't play as often. And SE looooves to punish people.

Theres also Quests that are severely lacking in FFXIV. I feel aimlessly lost outside of grinding or crafting when i played. Unless you count guildleves which i count it towards grinding due to the lack of variety.

Theres also a mailing system that i believe FFXIV does not have at this point...still. Similarly Mounts (ie: Chocobos) were also available along with early Dungeons (something to aim for) and an Auction House..during beta. Like FFXI's beta when i played...

All Patch notes: WoW -> Info -> Under Development -> Previous Patch Content (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/underdev/implemented/) (Dates are inside the actual patch notes, for reference the release date of game was November 23, 2004)

Loony BoB

11-04-2010, 01:57 PM

Content and UI mostly.
In that case, while content is lacking, it will definitely be coming and by the time the game is eight years old I'm sure there will be a similar content level to FFXI at the moment - ie, more than you know what to do with. But in the early days, I'm just glad at the lack of bugs as it means that they have a stable environment to work with and build upon. A lot of content that doesn't work isn't much better than little content that does work. Still, as mentioned, I'd have liked to see more at launch but I can understand why there isn't so much just yet. We'll see if Ishgard will arrive come November. I hope it does, because it feels silly not having it there at the moment.

There are a lot of NPCs. Not much have a story to tell, although the ones that talk about the various enemies of each city are interesting. I oddly can't wait for goblins to make their inevitable appearance in Thanalan, as it was mentioned they had left but suggested they'll be back. The other NPCs generally just talk to you as if you were a random passer by rather than someone looking for a novel to read, but I guess that's just how things will be until expansions kick in and whatnot.

As for the UI, it's in the process of being improved and I think they mentioned late November as the date to see the new one on. I'm interested, although lately the UI speed (which was my only real gripe with the UI outside of inventory sorting and the highlighting of damaged items, or rather the lack of both of those things) has improved a lot so I'm not bothered even if it were to stay the same.

But yeah, as someone who may have come from an 8-10 year old world through to a 0 year old world, your friend my have had higher expectations than he should have.

Madame Adequate

11-04-2010, 05:22 PM

But WoW had plenty of content at launch. It has a lot more now obviously, but I recall no criticisms on that front. And WoW came out after EverQuest had been around for five years, but it wasn't lambasted for lacking content in comparison. City of Heroes had a good deal of content at launch, though nothing compared to what it would gain later. Heck, FFXI had plenty of content, which would grow and grow. FFXIV's will as well, but that doesn't mean that what is there now is sufficient, or that comparisons are unfair.

World of Warcraft (At release): World of Warcraft for PC Reviews, Ratings, Credits, and More at Metacritic (http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/world-of-warcraft)
FFXIV: Final Fantasy XIV Online for PC Reviews, Ratings, Credits, and More at Metacritic (http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/final-fantasy-xiv-online)

If folks like FFXIV then good for them, and as I've said I hope with time it does grow into a game I'm interested in. But this massive difference is clearly based on a lot more than just people derping and expecting a new MMO to have as much content and polish as one which is six years old, and "lack of content" or "limited questing" or just "repetetive levequests" or some such seems to be a theme across almost all the reviews.

Rostum

11-04-2010, 10:40 PM

I still think it's a little unfair to compare this game to older games, especially FFXI. People's expectations of the genre have changed dramatically, they are wanting heaps of content and a bug free game on release. They also don't want a World of Warcraft clone, yet they do. The genre is very confused at the moment, imo.

However, I don't believe this to be unreasonable. Everyone is always looking for the next MMO to really push the genre forward, and that's just not what FFXIV is doing in its current state. If it were released back in 2002 then I bet it would have been better recieved as the genre was more niche and people actually liked grinding 'hardcore' MMO's. But now people want a theme park MMO that has a nice story - which is perfectly fine, that's what I want at least.

I just don't find the idea of grinding slowly with no short term or long term goals other than the hope that the company might put enough content in, in the future. And the track record of that company doing said things is extremely bad.

Edit: I just wanted to add, because it's been bugging me. The character models and animations are so damn good, but the environments are so boring... What's up with that? Throw in some interesting landmarks at least.

Lionx

11-05-2010, 04:07 AM

I think the reason i compare it so much to FFXI is because i played in the beta of FFXI, and throughout most of my MMO years. Despite its flaws and other bs, it was enjoyable with the friends i made there, and it gripped me in some weird way at the start.

I didn't expect a miracle but i expected at least the game to interest me in beta like FFXI did. It just didn't, theres nothing to aim for. In FFXI I saw that friend of mine on a chocobo and i was excited, the NPCs having weapons/armors that i can aim for, and i saw people talking about doing this and that.

None of that is in FFXIV. Theres just nothing to do outside of grinding for...i dunno what they have in store later in FFXIV. No point to explore either. It doesn't motivate you to log back in. =/

Also...as long as the UI has been 'consolized', theres no way in hope that the UI will ever be good or looked on in that way despite any improvements to it. This shows out out of touch they are with the PC userbase. It was forgivable back in the day, but now you gotta keep up.

EDIT: Did you guys remember when they said FFXIV is going to be more casual to every gamer and easier to get the hang of? A game for just about anyone? That is a total lie LOL, this game is so hard to learn to do anything.

Lionx

11-05-2010, 10:54 AM

Square Enix: “FF14 is a Disaster, We’ve Lost Player Trust” | Sankaku Complex

Lol....=/

According to Square Enix, the game has sold a healthy 630,000 copies since launch (190,000 in Japan, 210,000 in the US and 230,000 in the EU). The PS3 version is still scheduled for March.

Server populations have been in freefall since launch however, now standing in the region of 30,000 at peak, despite Square Enix extending the free trial by a month, and the reaction of players to the game has generally been negative.

and also:

EDIT: Might be NSFW

EDIT BY BoB: Should be noted that NSFW = Not safe for posting, at least at EoFF.

Rostum

11-05-2010, 11:52 AM

I would like to add that Sankaku Complex has proven to have a personal vendetta against Square-Enix, as they love to sensationalise everything about them. If it is true or not, they have been known to make up crap just to put a bad light on Square-Enix. Also a warning that the website is NSWF.

Loony BoB

11-05-2010, 06:08 PM

Had to edit out the links as NSFW isn't allowed at EoFF. I'm sure people can search it up on Google if they want to though. But yeah - the population has declined on average but at peak it's still pretty bustling. 2,800 or so at peak during launch, 2,500 or so at peak in the past week at least. This is going by Lindblum stats. It might be that some servers are experiencing a hit more than others.

MILF - Yeah, I know, I see where you're coming from and agree. But while there is a lack of content, there are very few bugs for me - it's a wonderfully stable game in my experience. The lack of content is my biggest gripe. I guess MMO launches try to balance out stability and content, and in this case it was stability that won over SE's minds.

Madame Adequate

11-06-2010, 01:52 AM

If they have put out a fairly stable, bug-free MMO, then I will say one thing about that and one thing only: Excellent. They deserve more than a pat on the back, because the industry standard is too often to put things out and fix the bugs in patches. That's sometimes unavoidable due to the nature of the genre but all too often it's used as an excuse by the head honchos to rush things out of the door with the attitude that it can be fixed later. So, (Taking you at your word and assuming your experience is representative) I wholeheartedly applaud SE for publishing a stable MMO and I hope that whatever else they do, that part of the game survives and thrives.

Micheal Clark

11-08-2010, 10:02 AM

Hello,
I'm not very experienced with MmO's but I always thought those "cons" were true of all of them.

Loony BoB

11-08-2010, 02:04 PM

Taking you at your word and assuming your experience is representative
I know there are people out there who still get the odd crash, but it hasn't happened to me for a significant length of time. Then again, the lack of content means I've not been on as often as I was beforehand. Still, I have next week off... :D

Looking forward to the big patch coming up at the end of this month. Probably just after I finish my week off. >_<

Lionx

11-11-2010, 03:56 PM

This is the recent rumor thats going around. Its nothing official and probably off conjecture. But alot of people are talking about it.

http://news.mmosite.com/content/2010-11-09/square_enix_ffxiv_may_be_f2p,1.shtml

Some say they will quit the second it goes f2p, others say its the only way they would be interested at all in the game. But who knows, its all rumors atm. Probably not true though but its somewhat interesting.

Loony BoB

11-11-2010, 04:53 PM

A complete misunderstanding according to people who have read the full dialogue (or at least those that say they can read Japanese and have seen a more extensive dialogue, anyway) - apparently what was said is to do with Facebook games. It wasn't said in relation to FFXIV. The rumour mill started from that Sankaku place who, according to a lot of people, have some kind of agenda to get people to dislike anything to do with Square-Enix.

Not convinced yet with regards to the latest update on future content for FFXIV. It's mostly, from what I can see, one-off quests for storyline/class-quests, and the rest is all "additional guildleves". I want different kinds of content similar to the most simple of things such as "So-and-so will give you fame and gil for getting a wild onion" or whatever. Oh well. I'll probably still give it a go once the patch is out because I want to see how all the other updates work out. I wish EoFFers played this game at the same times I did, but oh well. If I could get more into the social side I'd probably be playing this game more often... but Football Manager 2011 has got a hold on me over the last week or so and probably will continue that hold until the first patch is out. =x