Encounters, Encounters, What to do?

[VeloZer0]

Back in the olden days enemy encounters were simple, random encounters were just about the only thing practical by the technology of the time. But as we know progress marches staidly onwards and new methods were devised. Some people heralded random encounters as 'obsolete', with no place in modern gaming.

In the other thread about if FF has declined I stated that I felt that it was also more indicative of a decline in JRPGs in general. I'm going to be starting a series of threads about how technological change has affected the FF series (and JRPGs in general), and this is the first one.

In this thread we will be discussing the mechanics of encountering enemies, and the good and the bad that go with each design idea. And when we have it all figured out we can sell it to SE and turn their slump around ;)

I'll get the ball rolling with my thoughts about some pros and cons:

Encounter Type:
Random
Pro: Area is different every time
Pro: Simple
Con: Fights unavoidable

Scripted
Pro: Exact control over difficulty/format of encounter
Con: Extra resources planning encounter map
Con: Every play-though is the same

Battle Area:
On Map
Pro: Sense of 'realism'
Pro: Seamless dungeon exploration
Con: All Dungeons must be designed to accommodate encounters

Separate Screen
Pro: Allows complete freedom of dungeon design
Con: Transition Screens required
Con: Breaks up flow of dungeon

(I can't really think of any Random on Map Battles atm)

Lets get started!

[Vyk]

I know I'm going to be the odd man out, but if I can see an encounter, I usually want to avoid it. Because encounters in general are annoying. But if its forced on you like a random encounter than you get the experience you need to progress

MY problem with encounters in general in RPGs is they're very tedious. Encounters should have a fun as hell battle mechanic, or give me more experience with less encounters. If I enjoy fighting, I won't run from an on-screen encounter. Combo-driven battle mechanics seem to go over the best. Xenogears and Legend of Legaia being my personal favorites. I know a lot of people enjoy Chrono Trigger's team-up attacks, or MarioRPG style interactive attacks. But all this stuff is rather the exception than the rule

Resonance of Fate sure changed the formula, and I loved it. But every other JRPG I've played that was recently released has been a lesson in combat tedium. One of the Tales games (though action oriented is definitely a plus over the standard model), that musical game I can't think of the name of, and Infinite Undiscovery I've played within the last year or so. And their battle systems are all cookie cutter. Like nobody even wants to be the "fun" RPG. Everyone knows all those games were heralded for their battle systems for one reason or another over every other JRPG. And in the case of Legaia its usually considered its only saving grace. Whereas in Mario, Nintendo learned the lesson and from what I understand they STILL use interactive battles

I've gotten tired of JRPGS in recent years and haven't tried a whole lot out. So I may be missing something. But its very telling that the few I try are still doing the same things

So I think you'd probably be best looking at attack types, rather than what screen the battle takes place in. If you can come up with a fun and addictive battle system, it won't matter if its random or on-screen, or if it adjusts off-screen to accommodate. If it loads quick and is fun to participate in. People will enjoy the game as a whole a heck of a lot more, and probably even go looking for fights instead of avoiding them

[Del Murder]

I really like the DQIX encounter system. It's a nice combination of random battles and avoidable on screen enemies.

In general I prefer random encounters because I don't like when each area is the same each time I go through it. Like in FFXIII. Chrono Trigger is the exception because that game is so awesome and you don't really notice the battles are the same each time through.

[Loony BoB]

I prefer random with (at least at some point) options/abilities that allow you to have less or zero encounters (eg. Enemy Away materia, I think it was called that anyway). I've never been a fan of on-screen stuff. It has it's ups and downs, I'm sure, but I just can't think of anything besides "I like random battles better" at the moment. xD My mind draws a blank as to the why. Possibly dungeon styles, possibly how easy it is to grind or farm with random battles, dunno... but so long as the battle system is enjoyable then I can handle other types.

[VeloZer0]

So I think you'd probably be best looking at attack types, rather than what screen the battle takes place in.
In time, I've got a whole bunch of thread topics to get through :D


Chrono Trigger is the exception because that game is so awesome and you don't really notice the battles are the same each time through.
When I think about everything I don't like in games in general I always realize CT broke the rule and it was still awesome. I think part of why this works is the areas weren't 100% legit for fighting in, but because it was all 2D you could just have your characters treat the battlefield like it was a flat plain no mater what it was actually supposed to be.


I know I'm going to be the odd man out, but if I can see an encounter, I usually want to avoid it. Because encounters in general are annoying.
Usually depends how fun the combat is. I know some people recoil from having no control or warning over when they fight an enemy, but I find plodding up to an enemy you can see from a mile away and know you can't get around is even worse.

[Depression Moon]

Which games belong to your categories?


Encounter Type:
Random
Pro: Area is different every time
Pro: Simple
Con: Fights unavoidable


Is this FFs I-X-2?


Scripted
Pro: Exact control over difficulty/format of encounter
Con: Extra resources planning encounter map
Con: Every play-though is the same
Is this Chrono Trigger?


Battle Area:
On Map
Pro: Sense of 'realism'
Pro: Seamless dungeon exploration
Con: All Dungeons must be designed to accommodate encounters
And this?


Separate Screen
Pro: Allows complete freedom of dungeon design
Con: Transition Screens required
Con: Breaks up flow of dungeon
FFs again?

[Slothy]

Each has pros and cons, but they largely depend on how much fun the battle system is to be honest. That said, from a simple immersion stand point I am against random encounters. I always found the transition jarring, and felt that it pulls one out of the experience. When the transition can be fairly seamless like in CT (even though it's battles weren't really random) then it's not so bad, but it also adds that extra step of trying to run away if I really just feel like getting something done, or have to get to a save point (which is another issue entirely in some ways). Even worse is when the battle system isn't that amazing and you begin to dread that transition screen popping up.

On the other hand, I can see where people may not like being able to see enemies, especially when combat isn't that fun and you have a sea of enemies between you and your goal. I disagree with the idea that random encounters provide more freedom in dungeon design though. RPG battle systems tend not to rely on features like terrain and cover as a combat element as much as something like an FPS would. And even then, developers always have the freedom to alter the frequency and type of encounters to serve whatever sort of exploration and level design goals they choose.

Really though, any points regarding either system are fairly moot without considering the battle system. For example, I don't mind not being able to avoid random encounters as much if the battle system is awesome, and I go out of my way to attack visible enemies given an awesome battle system as well. Where either system really starts to break down is when it's paired with a battle system that makes combat feel like an endless grind to get to the end, and doesn't engage the player in a meaningful and interesting way.

[VeloZer0]

Which games belong to your categories?
I hadn't really thought of this, it was more of a discussion piece.
Random Scripted Transition FF1-FF10 FF13 In Place ??? FF12,CT


I disagree with the idea that random encounters provide more freedom in dungeon design though.
Designing dungeons like the pre-rendered worlds of FF7-9 would be utterly impossible if you had to have fights actually take place on the world map. Once again the intricate dungeon designs of FF4-6 would have had to give way to more open spaces to accommodate the battles.

The feeling I get from all games that have on map combat is that every room has to be the same wide open space to allow character movement in battle. This fact and the transition between fixed and third person camera has had a devastating effect on dungeon design, imo.

[Vyk]

Its been a while since I've played Chrono Trigger. But I don't recall there being a huge issue with space. I know they fought on the dungeon screen, so that lends to your argument that maybe the dungeons were designed for that. But I seem to recall the dungeon layout not mattering during an encounter. I remember characters jumping to all corners of the screen. Which was not a screen-wide hallway. Its just that the fight took place on your TV screen, basically laid over the dungeon in the background. The empty space in the corner where a wall cuts off the route wasn't an issue, unless I'm remembering wrong

[VeloZer0]

CT managed to get around a lot of it because in battle the area was basically treated like a big 2D carpet. Also since you could see absolutely everything from the camera angle they could make the area the exact size you would need.

In a modern game with a free roam able camera you have to make the battle area a lot larger as the camera needs room to rotate around the party instead of just spy down from on top. (Modern day cameras are another big issue of mine)

[Vyk]

CT managed to get around a lot of it because in battle the area was basically treated like a big 2D carpet. Also since you could see absolutely everything from the camera angle they could make the area the exact size you would need.

In a modern game with a free roam able camera you have to make the battle area a lot larger as the camera needs room to rotate around the party instead of just spy down from on top. (Modern day cameras are another big issue of mine)

Oh, now I get it, you were talking about how it'd have to be adapted, not how it was

[Slothy]

Designing dungeons like the pre-rendered worlds of FF7-9 would be utterly impossible if you had to have fights actually take place on the world map. Once again the intricate dungeon designs of FF4-6 would have had to give way to more open spaces to accommodate the battles.

I have to disagree with the idea that on map battles have to give way to open spaces. Taking FFXII as an example, it certainly had it's fair share of wide open spaces, especially in what could be considered the world map, but it really had just as many narrow passages and enclosed spaces. And with a game like that there's no reason they can't have both really since you really only need to give the player enough room to run from battle and be able to see most of what's happening. Spacing and distance weren't really that important in FFXII.

And again, there's no reason that enemy encounters and the battle system can't be tailored to a certain dungeon design style. There's no reason to just assume that on map battles can only take place in wide open spaces other than that's something that's been done and stick's out in people's minds.

[VeloZer0]

When I was playing FF12 all I could think about how it sucked that all the paths were huge wide open areas. It was especially noticeable when doing anything inside. I don't think there was a single combat enabled area in the game with a 'width' of less than 20 feet. The whole time I was in the Draklore laboratory I was just thinking how weird it was that they apparently designed the whole thing to be so wide open as to accommodate huge battles going on in their halls.

Previous entries had always featured very tight and intricate dungeon design, by contrast everything in FF12 was forced to be laid wide open. It almost felt like FF13 to me, just with a different constraining design paradigm.

[ShinGundam]

I prefer quick and painless random encounters :p. By the way you forget to add one thing, battles that take place on the world map.
http://www.abload.de/img/agito54rzq.png
http://www.abload.de/img/agitoyrla.png

[Jessweeee♪]

AARRRGH ridiculously high encounter rates is what makes it so maddening for me to play anything pre-FFVI. Maybe I was behind, but they tended to be rather difficult too. The others were nice, you ran into plenty of monsters, but not enough to make you pull your hair out trying to get from point A to point B. I liked how there was no transition to another map in FFXII. If you got swarmed by a lot of enemies it was like "o:bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou:" because if you had to run away you could potentially take the whole map with you xD

[Vyk]

AARRRGH ridiculously high encounter rates is what makes it so maddening for me to play anything pre-FFVI. Maybe I was behind, but they tended to be rather difficult too. The others were nice, you ran into plenty of monsters, but not enough to make you pull your hair out trying to get from point A to point B. I liked how there was no transition to another map in FFXII. If you got swarmed by a lot of enemies it was like "o:bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou:" because if you had to run away you could potentially take the whole map with you xD

Both versions of Skies of Arcadia are especially notorious for this. Even after they were -both- edited to -reduce- the encounter rate. The Japanese have an insane amount of patience and stamina for encounters. Its crazy. I remember on the Saturn there was a game called Albert Odyssey (originally an SNES game so partially excusable) Working Designs brought it over and edited the encounter rate down and it still had you get into fights ever 2 or 3 steps sometimes. So I can't imagine what the Japanese deal with sometimes

[Slothy]

When I was playing FF12 all I could think about how it sucked that all the paths were huge wide open areas. It was especially noticeable when doing anything inside. I don't think there was a single combat enabled area in the game with a 'width' of less than 20 feet. The whole time I was in the Draklore laboratory I was just thinking how weird it was that they apparently designed the whole thing to be so wide open as to accommodate huge battles going on in their halls.

Previous entries had always featured very tight and intricate dungeon design, by contrast everything in FF12 was forced to be laid wide open. It almost felt like FF13 to me, just with a different constraining design paradigm.

I disagree with every area feeling wide open as I remember some felt quite tight and closed in, particularly some caves, mines, forests, etc. But for the sake of argument, let's assume that each area in the game was wide open. I still don't think that somehow proves that an RPG with on screen battles needs to be wide open. Particularly when positioning isn't that important to the combat system. The trouble is that there are so few JRPG's that use an on map battle system that it's hard to think of any that aren't fairly open a lot of the time, but I think this shows more a lack of imagination on our part (and a strange love of random encounters from the Japanese) than some inherent flaw in the concept of on map battles.

I also think that part of the problem could be that with 3D itself things tend to have to be done big to feel like they're the right size. Taking FPS games as an example, doors and ceilings usually have to be about 9-10 feet high in game to not feel too small and cramped to the player. So where I didn't feel that every area in FFXII was big and sprawling, I could certainly concede that they may have felt that way to someone else, though to be honest, I don't see physical scale as a detriment to dungeon design. I actually felt FFXII had the best dungeon design since probably FFIX or earlier in terms of variety of locales and the character of the areas.

[Wolf Kanno]

I've been meaning to touch on this topic.

I really don't have a preference for one over the other. I've seen both systems done well and both done terribly.

I feel random encounters are trickier to work with cause everything needed to get rid of their annoying aspects also wipes out their positives. If I would suggest one series that comes close to perfecting random encounters, its Wild Arms, specifically Wild Arms 2nd Ignition as it allows you to choose whether you want to fight or not as long as your levels are high which makes the most annoying aspect of random encounters a thing of the past, by which I mean, backtracking through a low level area to be constantly stopped by pathetically weak creatures whose spoils are utterly worthless to you later.

As for on map enemies, CT probably did it best in terms of seamless ness though I do appreciate XII's attempt. Yet, I don't feel any RPG series has really done on map encounters as well as BoFV. For the majority of you who probably gave this game a pass or gave up in frustration of the games eccentricities, BoFV had enemies on the map you engaged in similar to Chrono Trigger. You made contact and the battle menu popped up and battles commenced. What set BoFV apart was that you could affect battles before even engaging them or there were clever means of avoiding combat (which was necessary cause BoFV wasn't afraid of tossing in high level monsters in areas that were way above your parties level at the time) through the use of items that affected monsters. You could toss bombs or leave land mines that would reduce the enemies health before battle commenced, you could afflict them with status effects by feeding them corrupted food, or you could simply avoid them by drawing their attention with food and items in one direction wile running towards the other. The system was brilliant and I will never understand why no one copied it except if you want to count Xenosaga but its system was much more situational since you couldn't carry around the items needed to affect enemies. BoFV also gave you bonuses for fighting larger groups of enemies so food had multiple practical uses.

I still feel its the best on map battle encounter system in the RPG genre just because it added a new level of gameplay and interaction to the world. Really, if FF wants to be rid of random encounters entirely, then they need to start investing in letting the player interact with the environment so encounters feel more organic as opposed to "I need to go this way and hulking behemoth is in my way and I can't avoid him, which makes this a staged encounter..."

[Roto13]

Random encounters are terrible and they need to go away forever and ever and ever. It's amazing that there are two schools of thought on this, really. They're the biggest reason why old RPGs are so hard to get into.

[VeloZer0]

If I would suggest one series that comes close to perfecting random encounters, its Wild Arms, specifically Wild Arms 2nd Ignition as it allows you to choose whether you want to fight or not as long as your levels are high which makes the most annoying aspect of random encounters a thing of the past, by which I mean,
This makes me think of Earthbound. In that game the enemies appear on the over world map, and touching them causes you to enter a battle screen. If you are strong enough all touching them does is cause you to gain experience and items from killing them, just a dialog box that pops up on the bottom. You don't even have to close the dialog box, just keep running through the area.

[Del Murder]

Yeah, that was a pretty cool system. Ahead of its time.