Explain the Whole Sonic Issue to Me

[Evastio]

Before I go any further in this thread, I guess I should mention that I've barely played any Sonic games. I've only played Sonic 1 and 2 Advance and Sonic the Hedgehog Genesis for GBA.

So, the general consensus among Sonic fans is that Sonic was awesome when it first came out. Then, practically every game after Sonic the Hedgehog 3 sucked. The only games that are mainly considered good are all the games between and including the first and third Sonic games.

Why that is, I still don't know to this day. I keep hearing a lot of different responses, like they added way too many characters, the controls aren't good anymore, the games aren't fast enough, or that Sonic fanboys are just impossible to please.

So for those of you that have more experience with Sonic, do you think you could explain why most fans think Sonic sucks now?

On a side note, I'm well aware that Sonic Colours and Sonic 4 are an exception to the "all Sonic games past the 3rd one suck" mindset that a lot of people have. I'm even thinking of renting Sonic Colours, since even watching the gameplay amazes me.

[Jessweeee♪]

The series has radically changed since it's days on the Genesis. Many fans of the original Sonic games don't like the recent ones in the same sense that a FFIII fan may not be too fond of FFX. Except the complaints about Sonic's decline are much, much less exaggerated. The addition of dialogue is what killed it if you ask me.

YouTube - Sonic Adventure 2: Battle: Hero Cutscenes (Part 3) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4V5pKF7gyM&feature=related)

That video could be spoilery, I wouldn't know.


Anyway, I think the less well received games have a place, but personally I'm not too fond of them. My personal favorite is Sonic 2, but I don't habitually play that sort of game. It's purely nostalgia; it was my first video game.

[Vyk]

While complaining about Sonic games of recent times myself, I put forward a similar question. The original team that created Sonic is no more. The Sonic games being made now are made a whole different group of people. People who have no idea what to do with Sonic to make a worthwhile game. The idea that Sonic 4 is an exception is relative to how lenient a fan you're talking to. I don't consider myself a huge Sonic fan in the slightest. But I guess I'm still a little harder to please. Sonic Dash was also considered an exception. And I tried one of them. And it was terrible. The animation, physics, and controls were really awkward and weird. From what I've gathered Sonic 4 is only as good as that game. Which still isn't that great. A lot of people lowered their standards for a good Sonic game. So Sonic 4 is considered "good" in that it is probably merely just the least "bad" Sonic game since Sonic & Knuckles

I hated the Sonic Adventure games. I get what they were trying to do. Compete with Mario 64. Which was totally possible. But the people who tried it had no idea how to do it. And every 3D Sonic game since has gotten terrible reviews, and rightfully so

I really can't consider myself nitpicky when I bitch about how a game that tries to emulate Sonic of old doesn't do a good enough job. When the physics and controls are awful floaty, and the animation is stiff and awkward. Consider I have a handful of independently made Sonic games by fans for things like Genesis emulators and for the Zune and stuff that are better than anything since the glory days of the Genesis. And the Genesis Sonic games weren't really even anything amazing. They were GOOD, but they weren't some epic conglomeration of awesome. They were just done well

As an aside, it should be noted that many people, myself included, consider Sonic CD to be the best Sonic game ever. And it actually took some pretty radical liberties with the franchise. It changed the animations and introduced a time travel gimmick. And it worked great. The music was really awesome. And the game play was easily on par with anything on the Genesis. I'm not sure if it was made by a different group of people, or if the same people decided to experiment a bit for once and it paid off or what, but I'd highly recommend looking into that game

/rant

[VeloZer0]

or that Sonic fanboys are just impossible to please.
100% true.

It seems everyone has a different beef, but I'll sum up my position as briefly as possible.

- I think the series has gone very much down hill since Sonic 3, other than Rush and 4 I don't think they produced a decent game with his name on it.
- I don't think 3D works very well with traditional Sonic type gameplay.
-I also don't like the inclusion of a whole host of other characters in the game. A) they are annoying, and B) they add gameplay mechanics other than Sonic's own.
- It seems that the Sonic team doesn't really understand what makes the speed aspect of Sonic fun. Titles have either been too slow or gone to a just press forward and fly through the stage model. The super fast sections should be like a treat, and if you are skilled you can chain them together to fly through a stage.

[Roto13]

I like that Sega totally knew what they were doing wrong with Sonic Unleashed but they did it anyway and were really misleading about it.

They didn't reveal the werehog stuff until after the regular Sonic gameplay was revealed. Then they lied and said that most of the game was about regular Sonic and the werehog was less than 10% of the game or something. (The werehog was more like 80% of the game because his stages were so damn long.) Then they released the demo of the first Sonic stage and didn't show the werehog at all.

I think that's proof enough that Sega hates Sonic fans.

Sonic 4 is good, though (despite even more lies about returning to the classic Sonic style), and apparently Sonic Colours is really good. I also like the Rush games. But some people really are unpleasable. It doesn't help that there are two kinds of Sonic fans. The kinds that actually play Sonic games for the stories and don't care about how broken some of the games are (and yes, I'm saying broken, because Sonic '06 is literally broken, as in most people won't be able to actually play it because it just doesn't work unless you adapt to how terrible everything is because it's simply not a finished product), and the kind that scream and cry every time they see a picture of Sonic with green eyes.

[Madame Adequate]

Sonic 4 is crap, doesn't play like Sonic at all.

Sonic Colours though, holy crap it looks amazing.

It says something about the quality of the first ones that after 15 years of being burned people still look forward to a Sonic game with hope, however forlorn.

[Roto13]

Sonic 4 is crap, doesn't play like Sonic at all.

Sonic 4 is pretty good, but it doesn't play like Sonic 1 - 3.

[Bolivar]

For the record, it's not just Sonic 1-3; Sonic & Knuckles was great as well and stands up with the original 3. The original isn't as great in light of how good its successors were. Also Sonic Spinball was a really fun game with a cool aesthetic. And Sonic 3D was an interesting take on 3D. It felt more like a demo of things to come, but I like how it was built up of all these different areas to solve, it gets a good grade in my book.

But the fact that all of the above are Genesis games may give you the answer - it's all just rose tinted glasses.

To me, what ruined the series is how the developers looked at the speed aspect that set it apart from the Marios and Mega Man's, and then made it the ONLY thing. Even when Sonic Unleashed was being marketed, even when they were only showing the "classic" parts, I was exceptionally turned off by the game. You just fly through the levels with no real concentration at all. Yes, there are parts where you race through the loop-de-loops, but in the original Sonic games there are ALOT of vertical parts and ALOT of parts where you're not moving fast at all, maybe just the opposite b/c you're trying to balance your way across the platforming segments.

I do believe the originals were masterpieces and not just "very well done" games, which is something I would reserve for, say, Shining Force (agreeing with Vyk). The sense of inertia (something Sonic 4 lacks) differentiated it a bit. The music is near untouchable as far as I'm concerned. It embodied the Sega Genesis experience - a lot of original-looking, highly detailed crap that moves really really fast. With unbelievable music.

Sonic 4 is good, but it's not that good.

[KentaRawr!]

The older games were platformers, but it seems like most of the newer ones are trying to nail being a Sonic platformer. But, admittedly, I didn't get into Sonic until I played Sonic Adventure, which I really like. :3 I think the Sonic games basically started being bad after Sonic Heroes.

Also, even though I really like Sonic Adventure, I think it would be nice if all the characters suddenly became mutes. :p

[Roto13]

I was on a snooze cruise I guess

[Madame Adequate]

Sonic 4 is crap, doesn't play like Sonic at all.

Sonic 4 is pretty good, but it doesn't play like Sonic 1 - 3.

Fair enough, the first half of what I said was subjective. I don't personally like Sonic 4 at all.

[Vyk]

I finally downloaded a trial run of Sonic 4 which just lets you play the first stage. And I hated it. As stated, the inertia is just off. The animation doesn't help. He floats over the ground rather than walking. He pulls out of a loop-de-loop in the middle of a run. He won't stay in spin mode through one even if you're holding the down button. I just don't get it. The game is pretty. But its terribly done. At best its like Sonic Rush. Which is just okay, I guess, for people who don't really expect much. Which sounds weird to say. Because Sonic 2 and 3 were not that much. They were simple and fun. I truly don't get how this can be so difficult for Sega

And expanding on some other people's arguments, I don't get Sega's thought process for any decision they've made with Sonic for ages. Sonic Adventure won its crowd. I gave them that experiment, though I think it could have been done a LOT better. But they were obviously ashamed of what they were doing with Sonic Unleashed. What were they thinking? And its the same crap they're thinking all the time. Look at the flak they got for Shadow's gun-toting game. A Sonic character with Glocks akimbo? Yeah, great idea. I'm sure it probably could have been pulled off, but certainly not by them. And now we have Sonic and team being retarded in King Arthur's court, saving the day in an Aladdin story. They've yet to perfect the core formula. What made them think they'd be able to make a good gimmick game?

Funny thing is all of Sega's main franchises have suffered a similar fate in my eyes. The last few Phantasy Star games have made me cringe when I tried them out. And I can't even stomach trying out Shining Force games anymore

I can't see this as just Sega lost some good people. The ideas behind some of these games are just ... terrible. Its like they're purposely trying to stifle quality creativity. They can't all be that brainless. Its like they don't even want to make a good game anymore

[DMKA]

The only Sonic games I ever liked were Sonic 2, Sonic 3, and Sonic & Knuckles.

All the others I've played have been pretty lame. Although people seem to say Colors is pretty good. I haven't tried it.

I'm one of those people who play games for stories and characters though and Sonic just isn't a series you play for that. :p

[Dreddz]

People just expect too much from Sonic. He was great back in the day but the formula wore thin and now most of his stuff just comes across as so familiar that few people care. Ill admit there have been issues with the 3D Sonic games but it was only the one released in 06 that had major issues. The others are still ok in my opinion, apart from Sonic Adenture which I still like alot.

Sonic 4 is crap, doesn't play like Sonic at all.
Sonic 4 is pretty damn good. At least it was to me.

[Roto13]

I dunno, Shadow the Hedgehog was pretty damn terrible.

[Vyk]

Alright, I gotta say, I just tried out Sonic Advance 1 and 2 on GBA emulated on my PSP, and I'm really surprised. It still has the goofy art style and animation a little reminiscent of Rush and Sonic 4. But the physics weren't extremely wonky, and the walking/running animation flowed better with the movement, so it didn't look like he's floating/gliding on the ground like in Sonic 4. The physics worked with the speed. No sudden stops in loop-de-loops, or pulling out of spins and randomly going into a run on a downhill like in Sonic 4. So really a new Sonic team has actually done it fairly right at least once since Sonic & Knuckles. I'm both impressed and saddened that I only just now realized. But Sonic Rush and Sonic 4 both still blow in these regards. And I watched the GameTrailers review of Sonic Colors for DS that says its just like Sonic Rush but with weird alien powers and abilities. Nice idea. But that whole physics issue and floatiness drive me crazy. Not to mention the version of Rush I have has all these crazy death traps so you don't even want to go fast. Egh..

But thankfully there's some decent Homebrew projects out there

[G13]

Sonic became too complicated. I was fine with side-scrolling through levels, looking for rings and trying to get those special checkpoints for some Chaos levels. Sonic in 3D (not to be confused with Sonic 3D) serves only to infuriate and confuse the hell out of me. I don't need the camera smurfing my eyeballs with crazy angles after going around loop-de-loops.

It also doesn't help that the stories they decided to give an already great game (even as minor as they were) sucked major ass. All I need is some Eggman holding Chao's captive in a very simple canister and I'm set. They should have kept the stories to the comics and tv shows. Sonic SatAM smurfing rules btw. :heart:

Plus, the music has been pretty freaking bad. "Rolling around at the speed of sound", are you kidding me!? I wanted to take a bat to my PS2! That song is the very reason I refuse to touch any Sonic title that stretches beyond the Genesis (not really the only reason but it's fun to blame it as the sole reason).

I actually consider myself to be a pretty big Sonic fan despite all the bitching I just did. When I found the Sonic Mega Collection I almost did a backflip, a lot of the titles on it I'd never heard of but then I quickly realized why. They're fun in their own right but not as good as the first three, and then Sega just seemed to quit trying altogether.

[VeloZer0]

See, I don't mind the death traps you hit at speed. Then it makes running around super fast somewhat of a risk. It makes going at high speed more of a risky behavior, but when you manage to avoid an obstacle and chain right into the next high speed segment without loosing any speed you feel great. But that said, I don't mind dying a whole bunch in games.

Also, floaty? Sonic jumping physics have always been on the 'floaty' side.


I guess the reason I wasn't turned off by the physics of Sonic 4 is because I like a little tighter control in my plat formers. So for me it is a welcome change.

---

What I can't stand is people who say, "The physics suck because they aren't the same as Sonic 1-3". It has been almost 20 years, stuff changes. Deal with it. If you don't find the physics intrinsically fun it is a legitimate concern, but hating the physics because they didn't just plug the original Genesis ones in is ridiculous.

I was reading an article where they slammed S4 for having no inertia and being able to stop on a dime, and a few paragraphs down they were complaining how slow he accelerates and in the sequel they should make him get up to speed much faster. :rolleyes:

[Vyk]

I'm not talking about his jumping. The way he animates while walking over the ground is unnatural. And the physics shouldn't get -worse- after 20 years, the changes should be improvements, not handicaps. It just makes it all feel wrong. But like I said, the Advance games are actually pretty good exceptions. So it -can- be done right. Though I don't particularly like the whole "Chao collecting" thing in the 3rd one. But the little bit I played of all three games are above and beyond everything I experienced in my brief time with Sonic 4, aside maybe from the pretty visuals

I'd have to agree with that article. But I wouldn't consider it a slam. Its a fact. Sonic accelerated faster in the older games. And he had inertia, just like Mario, where he'd take a bit to slow down unless you hit the other direction on the D-Pad in which case he'd skid to a stop, which still takes a second. And I'm still confused and frustrated with the idea that Sonic pulls out of a roll on his own in Sonic 4 and sometimes pulls out of a loop-de-loop for no reason. Which means its more than just the physics, its the whole mechanics

I don't consider this unreasonable nit-picking, since Nintendo managed to keep all the mechanics and physics available in the original Mario games when upgrading. They added to it, they didn't nerf it. Sega should be doing that and they're not, and its confusing and irritating

Just my two cents though. I really dunno how people can like new Sonic games, because Sonic has always been a gimick series. You have speed. Fast paced fun. If it can't reach that then I dunno what people are seeing in these games. But if you do enjoy them for whatever reason, more power to ya. I just wish I could. I also wish Sega could get a clue. But like I've said, its not just Sonic they're ruining. I would imagine Bolivar would agree, with the new Shining games in mind. A lot of us fans are almost afraid to admit we liked the Shining franchise, and have to point out how fun the original games were to justify ourselves. Pretty much the same for me and Phantasy Star as well. I hate all the new ones. I'm ashamed to be a Sega fan. I'd say I'm a retro Sega fan. But I would have loved to have these games updated, expanded upon, and kept going properly

/rant (sorry lol)

[NorthernChaosGod]

Plus, the music has been pretty freaking bad. "Rolling around at the speed of sound", are you kidding me!? I wanted to take a bat to my PS2! That song is the very reason I refuse to touch any Sonic title that stretches beyond the Genesis (not really the only reason but it's fun to blame it as the sole reason).

Are you fucking kidding me?!

That song is fucking awesome.
YouTube - /v/ Singan Gaems : Escape from the City (2.0, 7-24) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIQG2OEiUQQ)

[VeloZer0]

I may not agree with you on just about everything else Vyk, but that song really blows.

[NorthernChaosGod]

You guys have :bou::bou::bou::bou:ty taste.

[Dreddz]

If theres one thing the Sonic series never faulted on its the music.

[Roto13]

It's so stupid to complain about Sonic's walking animation. It's such an insignificant detail. It doesn't affect the gameplay at all. Get over it. It's just as bad as complaining about the fact that he has green eyes.

And this right here:

When the physics and controls are awful floaty,

This is just factually wrong. Sonic stops the second you let go of the directional pad. That's the exact opposite of floaty.

[Vyk]

My bad, I mis-spoke. I'm talking about a different kind of floating than what critics complain about, which you address in your first paragraph. Walk him left and right slowly and watch his feet animate on the ground. Its freakishly wrong. It doesn't ruin the game by any means. But there's no excuse for that. Aside from the fact that its a really dated polygonal model instead of the sprite animations akin to the original games. I guess the timing in an animation work better than a 3D model. But that's more of a nit-pick. It doesn't change the fact that he dropped out of loop-de-loops after a downhill spin. Standard Sonic fare, in every other game he gains enough momentum on a downhill spin to go through 2 or 3 loop-de-loops. Plus the fact that he's pulled out of downhill spins on his own, for whatever reason. Obviously this game emphasizes running over spinning. Which is great. I'd really like to run straight into an enemy I'd have no time to react to. Its much more prudent and safer to stay in spin mode as often as possible. But this game cripples that concept for some reason. So its just plain and simply not a Sonic game for me. Sonic's just supposed to be about going fast. Not specifically running fast. Which to me, indicates they're still taking way too many cues from the 3D Sonic games and no the 2D Sonic games they're trying to emulate. And if they can't emulate the games they're aiming for, why shouldn't they be called out for it? I'm not telling anyone to not play the games or not to enjoy the games if they do. I'm merely speaking (way too much) about personal opinion. The question was to explain the hatred towards newer Sonic games. And that's one of the newest, and garners the most hatred. So that's what I explained :]

[G13]

Plus, the music has been pretty freaking bad. "Rolling around at the speed of sound", are you kidding me!? I wanted to take a bat to my PS2! That song is the very reason I refuse to touch any Sonic title that stretches beyond the Genesis (not really the only reason but it's fun to blame it as the sole reason).

Are you smurfing kidding me?!

That song is smurfing awesome.
YouTube - /v/ Singan Gaems : Escape from the City (2.0, 7-24) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIQG2OEiUQQ)

Get. The. Fuck. Out! How are we even friends?

[Jessweeee♪]

If theres one thing the Sonic series never faulted on its the music.

I liked the Sonic Adventure 2 music when I could ignore the lyrics.

[Roto13]

Even the bad Sonic games have good music. That's about the only thing Sonic '06 did right.

[NorthernChaosGod]

Plus, the music has been pretty freaking bad. "Rolling around at the speed of sound", are you kidding me!? I wanted to take a bat to my PS2! That song is the very reason I refuse to touch any Sonic title that stretches beyond the Genesis (not really the only reason but it's fun to blame it as the sole reason).

Are you smurfing kidding me?!

That song is smurfing awesome.
YouTube - /v/ Singan Gaems : Escape from the City (2.0, 7-24) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIQG2OEiUQQ)

Get. The. smurf. Out! How are we even friends?

I was thinking the same damn thing. :nonono:

That bass line is awesome and the singing is tight. :doublecolbert:

[KentaRawr!]

I like Eggman's theme a lot more. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWiSEyU76M4)

[Bolivar]

But like I've said, its not just Sonic they're ruining. I would imagine Bolivar would agree, with the new Shining games in mind. A lot of us fans are almost afraid to admit we liked the Shining franchise, and have to point out how fun the original games were to justify ourselves. Pretty much the same for me and Phantasy Star as well. I hate all the new ones. I'm ashamed to be a Sega fan. I'd say I'm a retro Sega fan. But I would have loved to have these games updated, expanded upon, and kept going properly

/rant (sorry lol)

You're correct that I'd agree, but only that Sega is the manifestation of a company who extends their franchises a few entries too long.

But that's only their early IP's, I'm not afraid to say I'm a SEGA fan, today. The Yakuza games are still going strong, apparently, and Valkyria Chronicles is one of my favorite new IP's. And those are developed internally, I believe. As sad as it may sound, I think they should just cut their losses and think about making games for today, because that seems to be what they're best at developing, as well as publishing (like signing Platinum Games for Madworld, Bayonetta, Vanquish).

Their licensed games ain't all that great from what I hear, though...

[JKTrix]

I don't like Sonic at all, never really got the (had better platformers and better 'go fast' games before Sonic 1 ever came out), and I wasn't gonna post in any Sonic thread.

But someone just mentioned Yakuza, Valkyria Chronicles and the Platinum games and I just come running like Pavlov's dog. I don't feel too bad about my apathy to Sega's flagship franchise when they just have so much other awesome stuff out there. Though they made some really, really disappointing steps with Sakura Taisen and Shenmue very recently, two other Sega franchises I like.

But this ain't a Sega thread. Carry on!

[Vyk]

I think looking at Sega as a whole is a worthwhile discussion as it kinda fleshes out the general ideas Sega has with more than just Sonic. Definitely some good points. I guess I'm missing out on enjoying Sega right now because their current best stuff are mostly PS3 games and I don't have that system. I have heard good things about Yakuza, and I desperately want to play Valkyria Chronicles. So I guess I probably still would be a fan. And they are pretty good at picking up worthwhile games to publish from other developers. Its just odd that they stumble so hard with things they should be so familiar with. I'd love to have old school Shining, Sonic, and Phantasy Star treated the way Square has done with their NES and SNES titles. And when you consider what Sega is still capable of; its just odd that they can't do it

I've never been able to enjoy a Sakura Taisen, as most of them are Japan-only and I'd never be able to slog through a foreign RPG. But I'd heard the Sakura Wars for the Wii was really well done. I know they've pretty much given up on Shenmue though. I should probably play the second one some day

[Levian]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v17/levia/sonic.jpg

something like this started happening after Sonic & Knuckles.

[Roto13]

That's not what happened at all. :P

[G13]

I like Eggman's theme a lot more. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWiSEyU76M4)

wtf were these musicians thinking?

[KentaRawr!]

Sonic Advance is pretty awesome, guys. :3

[DarkBahamut]

Well to be honest, I'd rather play Sonic 2 than Mario at times. More action in it. Except Mario is really fun too, but Sonic 2 had a original difference in each level. While Mario is just going through each world defeating Bowser, except of course each world is obviously more difficult. But in Sonic there are many more different aspects per stage.

[Roto13]

That's... not true. At all.

[Heath]

I was discussing this this morning with a friend of mine. I think the problem with Sonic is that the Mega Drive games were of a very high quality, combined with a suitable nostalgia value and less than brilliant 3D games have meant that they served to disappoint many people over the age of about 20. I quite enjoyed all the Sonic games up, and including, Sonic Adventure 2, though I'd probably saw it was one of my least favourite games in the series. I played the Sonic Advance games but found that something didn't seem quite right about them. The four Mega Drive games (1, 2, 3 & Knuckles) are still among my favourite computer games to this day.

In the discussion this morning, we essentially reached the conclusion that Sonic hadn't made the transition to 3D as well as the Mario series had. The nature of the 'go fast' mould of platformers - although not impossible in 3D - is better suited to 2D, I think and Sonic failed to innovate or evolve successfully in this respect.

Though in truth, I think it's nostalgia and high expectations which cause a lot of discontent with the more modern Sonic games.

[Evastio]

Hmm... so from what I'm understanding, the Sonic franchise suffered from a fate similar to the Crash Bandicoot series, where the original creators are no longer producing the games, the new developers didn't capture the "feel" that the old games had, and the fans are disappointed because of that. From everyone's posts here, that's the conclusion I'm coming to.

I guess it makes sense, since I've experienced myself the transition from the old Crash Bandicoot to the new.

[Roto13]

It's not even just the feel, it's the fact that even if they weren't Sonic games are were a new series entirely, they'd still suck because they're just poorly designed.