Theories about Cloud, Tifa, Sephiroth, Hercules, and Hades

[SuperMillionaire]

We all know that Cloud was helping Hades in the first game out of a deal to help him locate Sephiroth after he would defeat Hercules, and in the next game, Tifa looks for Cloud. She doesn't get much interaction time with Sora, and I personally think that in comparison to the other Final Fantasy VII characters, she's the least promoted. But anyway, back to the main point.

Perhaps the reason why Cloud left Hades was because Tifa intervened. She may have told Hercules that she was looking for Cloud because she believed that he might be participating in a tournament there, and Hercules may have told her that Cloud was working for Hades. Later, after Hades orders Cloud to defeat Sora, due to his progress in the tournaments, Cloud refuses, and Hades sets Cerberus on them, after which Hercules saves them. After this, Cloud would confront Hades about what he did to him and Sora, and then Tifa would arrive and tell Cloud about Hades' true intentions: to use him to kill Hercules. Cloud and Tifa would then battle Hades and end up captured, but Hercules would find them and set them free. Cloud would then apologize for helping Hades, and decides to find Sephiroth on his own. After their battle in the first Final Mix, they disappear, leaving Tifa alone; she then has to start her journey all over again.

In the second game, Tifa encounters Sora and asks him for help in looking for Cloud, though she only describes his characteristics vaguely and does not specifically state his name. She later briefly sees Cloud during the 1,000 heartless battle, but he chases after Sephiroth, leaving her to battle a group of heartless on her own. Much later, after Sephiroth challenges Sora, he tells Cloud about it, and they withness Cloud and Sephiroth battle. Tifa then shows up and gives Cloud the light to defeat Sephiroth, and after more fighting, they disappear. Tifa then talks briefly to Sora before departing.

Now, I'm sure you've all heard that "if Sephiroth = darkness, then Tifa = light." Perhaps the connection between the three is that Sephiroth is actually the extracted darkness from Tifa's heart. Perhaps the light in her heart may have been so strong that it expelled all the darkness out of her heart, but unfortunately, it had the side effect of forming into Sephiroth, who feeds on the darkness in Cloud's heart.

Had Tifa appeared in the first game, and if she will appear in Kingdom Hearts III, I think her new outfit would be a derivative of her classic Final Fantasy VII attire, but with the addition of Rinoa Heartilly's white angel wings, to contrast with Sephiroth's single black angel wing and Cloud's single demon wing. And since her last name happens to be Lockhart, maybe that will tie in to her actually having a "locked heart," meaning that the Heartless cannot get her heart.

[Ouch!]

The Birth by Sleep Ultimania actually deals with the question of Sephiroth's origin in particular. Zack makes an ambiguous comment about wanting to be like another hero, and Nomura has confirmed that this other hero is Sephiroth. Further, in regards to the black feather which falls next to Zack during the credits of Birth by Sleep, Nomura says that in Kingdom Hearts and Kingdom Hearts II, Sephiroth appears as a being of darkness, but during Birth by Sleep, it is unclear whether or not Sephiroth is already a being of darkness.

This would imply that, at some point, Sephiroth was just a person who later, by embracing darkness, becomes an a being of darkness who, as Sephiroth tells Cloud in Kingdom Hearts II, is bound somehow to Cloud's own darkness.

Nomura has also stated that the ambiguities regarding Tifa are intentional. We're supposed to wonder if she's an embodiment of his light or just someone who is trying to help him find his light. Also according to Nomura, Tifa was meant to originally be in Kingdom Hearts and was cut from the title due to time constraints.

Generally, I'm hesitant to retcon characters into canon before they make their official debut. Especially because each Kingdom Hearts game tends to get its own official retcon, if it was decided that Tifa was to play any significant role in Kingdom Hearts, it would have been included in Kingdom Hearts: Final Mix. After all, Final Mix did include a battle between Sephiroth and Cloud. However, this entire battle appears to be separate from the canon presented in Kingdom Hearts II as Sephiroth and Sora have never encountered one another before when they first meet in Hollow Bastion.

For continuity's sake, it's probably best to assume that Sephiroth's role in Kingdom Hearts is a non-canon cameo appearance. He's an optional boss that was added for the North American release and was not intended to be a major part of the plot. The subplot between Cloud and Sephiroth is developed in much greater depth in Kingdom Hearts II, so I think it's safe to say that's where canon for that particular narrative strand begins.

As for Kingdom Hearts III, I think it's far more likely, especially considering the way the battle between Cloud and Sephiroth ends, that we will explore the nature of the relationship between Cloud and Sephiroth. I also would not be surprised to see an appearance by adult Zack.

At the same time, the credits at the end of Kingdom Hearts referenced Rinoa heavily and she never made an appearance in Kingdom Hearts II, so it's equally likely that they'll leave it all up in the air.

[SuperMillionaire]

If Sephiroth's appearance in the first Kingdom Hearts wasn't canonical, then if they remake it, they can add Tifa in a similar fashion. In my opinion, she's the least promoted out of all of her fellow VII cameo characters. She doesn't even have an official artwork yet, because her KHII appearance was pulled straight out of Advent Children, which I think is disappointing. But enough about that, let's gets back to theories.

What about Cloud's relationship with Hercules and Hades?

[Ouch!]

I wouldn't expect a remake of Kingdom Hearts. They already released Final Mix which added a deal of content. They had the opportunity to add Tifa in and chose to wait until Kingdom Hearts II.

Given that Cloud did not return to Olympus Coliseum and instead was replaced by Auron in that story arch, I'd go so far as to say that he has no significant relationship with either Hercules or Hades. Hades attempted to manipulate his darkness to take Hercules down the way he tries to use Auron to do the same.

More productive speculation (if such speculation can be productive), might be looking at what we should expect between Cloud, Sephiroth, Tifa, and potentially Zack in Kingdom Hearts III. Looking forward is more likely to have more possibility than looking backward.

Given the scene with Zack at the end of Birth by Sleep, I would not be surprised to see him return and become involved somehow in this particular subplot in Kingdom Hearts III.

[SuperMillionaire]

I wonder who Hades will use next to attempt to eliminate Hercules...

After seeing Tifa's gameplay in Dissidia 012, I've been getting the feeling again that even though I think they should have put her in the first game straightforward, that maybe they didn't put her in the first game because she might have been "too sexy," not just because of what she wore for her classic Final Fantasy VII attire (a belly-baring tank top and a short leather mini-skirt), but also because she has big boobs that jiggle, as I clearly noticed in Dissidia 012 when she's wearing her classic attire. At the time of the first Kingdom Hearts, Advent Children had not entered production yet, and in the film, she's more covered up, and her boobs don't jiggle. In Kingdom Hearts II (which is her only appearance in the series so far), they changed Cloud's clothes to his Advent Children attire, and then added Tifa, also in her Advent Children attire, which I think is disappointing. They should have kept Cloud's new original Kingdom Hearts outfit and given Tifa a brand new outfit that is faithful to her classic attire. And on top of that, she was given very little screen time in comparison to the rest of her fellow Final Fantasy VII cameo characters, and Sora didn't get much of a chance to get to know her like the others. Perhaps Square Soft/Square Enix thought that younger children were too insecure to handle seeing a girl with big boobs that jiggle; of course, they were considering putting her in Final Mix, but left her out in favor of Sephiroth, but I think that they should have put her in the original to begin with.

Of course, although perhaps Rinoa may appear in the next game, I think that if Sephiroth has a single black angel wing, and Cloud has a single black demon wing, then to contrast with them, as an embodiment of light, Tifa should have a pair of white angel wings on her back. Other than this, her new outfit should stay faithful to her classic Final Fantasy VII attire, along with her classic "dolphin-tail" hairstyle. Of course, what I'd really like, even better, is if they remade the first game for the PS3 with the addition of Tifa, having the role as I mentioned above (intervening to tell Cloud about Hades' true plans to use him to eliminate Hercules). And in Kingdom Hearts III, she should get a chance to get to know Sora, and let him get to know her, and have her reveal that Sephiroth is actually the extracted darkness from her heart that feeds on the darkness in Cloud's heart. In this aspect, Tifa and Sephiroth's natures would be similar to those of Ventus and Vanitas.

Also, since her last name happens to be Lockhart (although it is never mentioned), I think that there should be a new plot element derived from her last name: a "locked heart." The heartless creatures are after people's hearts, but alas, if her heart is "locked," then the heartless can't get her heart. Of course, how a heart can get locked, I don't really know, but if she has a locked heart, then the heartless can't get her heart. And perhaps that may also explain why she can fight heartless with only her fists and feet, since everybody else had to use a weapon that is an extension of their bodies (such as Keyblades and other swords, and various other weapons, etc.).

[Del Murder]

You have obviously thought a lot about this. :o

It would be funny if the creators made all these game decisions based on her tits, but I don't think it's likely.

[SuperMillionaire]

Well, she is a "sexual fan service" character, after all. Her big, jiggly boobs might have been too sexy and suggestive to put in a game with Disney characters. At that time, the game series was marketed towards young children. But then they later got more adult, but in spite of that, they still refused to put Tifa in her classic outfit.

[NeoCracker]

I actually find Kingdom Hearts Tifa way hotter.

[SuperMillionaire]

Kingdom Hearts II Tifa = Advent Children Tifa, and I find that disappointing!

[Ouch!]

It's because leather shows sweat stains much less than a white tank top, right?

[Rostum]

It's because leather shows sweat stains much less than a white tank top, right?

/thread

[Mercen-X]

They should have kept Cloud's new original Kingdom Hearts outfit and given Tifa a brand new outfit that is faithful to her classic attire.
Tifa should have a pair of white angel wings on her back. Other than this, her new outfit should stay faithful to her classic Final Fantasy VII attire, along with her classic "dolphin-tail" hairstyle.
I agree about Cloud. I think they should give him another brand new outfit, in fact.
As for Tifa, similarly to KH Cloud, an imaginative take on her VII attire or cowgirl outfit. I don't know about the wings though.


And in Kingdom Hearts III, she should get a chance to get to know Sora, and let him get to know her, and have her reveal that Sephiroth is actually the extracted darkness from her heart that feeds on the darkness in Cloud's heart. In this aspect, Tifa and Sephiroth's natures would be similar to those of Ventus and Vanitas.This similarity to Ventus and Vanitas is the precise reason your suggestion will be the first tossed into a flaming dungheap.


Also, since her last name happens to be Lockhart (although it is never mentioned), I think that there should be a new plot element derived from her last name: a "locked heart." The heartless creatures are after people's hearts, but alas, if her heart is "locked," then the heartless can't get her heart.
Nah. A name is just a name. Otherwise, Cloud and Squall should be able to control the weather, Squall should be able to turn into a lion... you know what though, no one's surnames are used in Kingdom Hearts, it's like they're different people.

[SuperMillionaire]

Her wings should contrast with Cloud's and Sephiroth's wings. Cloud has a single black demon wing, and Sephiroth has a single black angel wing, so Tifa should have a pair of white angel wings on her back.

And I'm also disappointed that Kingdom Hearts II is her ONLY appearance in the series so far.

[Mercen-X]

Her wings should contrast with Cloud's and Sephiroth's wings. Cloud has a single black demon wing, and Sephiroth has a single black angel wing, so Tifa should have a pair of white angel wings on her back.
I see you've said this multiple times, but I just can't picture Tifa with wings.

Wings, whether demonic or angelic in appearance, on any other creature besides birds, are a supernatural appendage... more accurately, they are an unnatural addition that lends to the twisted and misshapen form of a creature already bearing inner impurities.
Cloud and Sephiroth having wings doesn't just make their own sense in Kingdom Hearts, they are relatable back to the original game. Sure, we never actually saw Cloud sprout a wing, but we've seen Sephiroth and plenty of other characters with Jenova-cells do so and Cloud has those same cells. Tifa doesn't.
The only way I might be willing to accept seeing them in-game is if they were merely a non-functional clothing accessory.

[SuperMillionaire]

Kingdom Hearts isn't canon to Final Fantasy VII, so since Tifa is an embodiment of light to contrast with Sephiroth being an embodiment of darkness, and Sephiroth has a black angel wing, then Tifa should have a pair of white angel wings. That's why I can picture Tifa with wings, but only in the Kingdom Hearts series, not in the Final Fantasy VII-related compilation or in Dissidia.

Of course, I had also mentioned earlier that it may be possible that the reason why Cloud stopped working for Hades was because Tifa might have intervened and told him about Hades' plans to use him to eliminate Hercules.

I am also very disappointed with the fact that Kingdom Hearts II is her ONLY APPEARANCE in the series so far, and that her outfit was pulled straight out of Advent Children. If I could, I would remake the original Kingdom Hearts for PS3 just to add Tifa in the Olympus Coliseum. Of course, I think her role should have been being a member of Leon's (Squall Leonhart) team in Traverse Town, where she would fight alongside her fellow Final Fantasy VII characters Aerith and Yuffie, but in order to put her in the first game without distorting the storyline too much, I would instead opt for having Tifa look for Cloud in the Coliseum, and then intervening to tell Cloud about Hades' plans.

I'd say that when they make Kingdom Hearts III, they should put Tifa in the game while wearing an outfit that is closer to her classic Final Fantasy VII outfit, but also having a few traits from Rinoa Heartilly's outfit in Final Fantasy VIII.

[Ouch!]

Except combining Rinoa with Tifa wouldn't make much sense as Rinoa's existence has already been teased during the ending credits of Kingdom Hearts.

[Sephiroth]

Cloud would confront Hades about what he did to him and Sora, and then Tifa would arrive and tell Cloud about HadesTifa did not find Cloud. It was Yuffie and the others. That's the final scene of them in the first Kingdom Hearts. There he meets Aerith again. The story of Sephiroth, Cloud and Tifa is based on On the Way to a Smile. Cloud always leaves and avoids Tifa because of his job and his sorrow since he was not able to save Aerith, while the weakened Sephiroth who has always resisted the lifestream fuses with Cloud's memories and makes them and his own memories about Cloud the source of his soul. And in Kingdom Hearts II the just call it "darkness" instead of "memories"."Stay were you belong - in my memories.""I will never be a memory.""No matter how many times I fall, your darkness will always bring me back."

[Christmas]

You have obviously thought a lot about this. :o

It would be funny if the creators made all these game decisions based on her tits,

That is alway the principal consideration, isn't it? :chocobo: