The Direction of Modern Metal

[Shoden]

I hate to stereotype, generalise and assume because yeah, yeah bigotry, pretentious nonsense, don't like, don't listen to it, you do better. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatever. Sod it, let's all go nuts. Keep it friendly!

Ok, so MODERN Heavy Metal bands, there's 2 sides of it, 2 sides of the coin if you want to be really, really basic.

You got your bands which fit under labels like Metalcore, Deathcore (I wanna be brootalz hardcore death metal emo), and there's also the many areas of Death Metal which I'll just not go too deep into but you get the point.

On the other side of the spectrum you got your neo classical, keyboard heavy, dragon fairytale, dungeon siege Power Metal stuff. Right, If I go too deep into this I'll just end up being bias straight away so I'll leave it all at this.

Compare this to the olds, the NWOBHM, The Big 4, Classic Rock, Prog and just think and ask yourself this;

Do you like the direction of which metal music is going in this age?

EDIT: There's also a 3rd movement, the most vulgar, unoriginal and boring of them all. The core genres. Metalcore/Deathcore which is like the designer kid, scene kid, pop metal stuff like Bring Me The Horizon, Bullet For My Valentine, Trivium, Machine Head and Killswitch Engage.

[NorthernChaosGod]

Yes, listening to the same thing over and over is boring.

[Shoden]

Fair point but so many of these bands, the cream of the crop of the new age have nowhere near the originality or the creative spark that their predecessors did at the exact same age, with LESS. Less diverse influences, less advanced technology to work with.

To me, its mostly the modern stuff that sounds the same, soul-less, generic, unoriginal and uninspired. The original punk movement did more with 3 chords and lack of skill than say Bring Me The Horizon and Dying Fetus.

[NorthernChaosGod]

Punk is bollocks. :p

You might want to take off the nostalgia goggles there, buddy. There's plenty of great music out there, you just have to be willing to listen.

[NeoCracker]

I'll agree with NCG here.

Though I'll also add in, there was a lot of freakin' music from days old we completely missed out on. All that's really remembered and talked about are the greats.

It's not like it was an age of nothing but originality. They had their fair share of soulless hacks who just did what every one else is doing.

It's just that now we have the internet, it's easier to not only find the good stuff, but to be overwhelmed by the flow of :bou::bou::bou::bou:.

[Laddy]

I can't like a genre that's sole goal is to make itself as unpleasant-sounding as possible.

EDIT: I know that's a generalization, but even "good" metal isn't my cup of tea. I'm an Indie/Progressive guy, so maybe I'm just being an ass.

[Pheesh]

http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/7400000/Abe-Simpson-walking-in-and-out-the-simpsons-7414427-320-240.gif

[sharkythesharkdogg]

Modern metal is pushing the envelope in ways that are just incredible. There are plenty of carbon-copy bands that don't try to create a new sound. Even that's okay to me. Having a band in an established genre with an established sound is perfectly fine to me. As long as they have that passion, and play what they believe in, so what?

But to say new, talented bands aren't out there trying different sound combinations and succeeding is just bogus.

The easy example is BTBAM, but like I said that's easy. I've always had respect for the amount of research Nile puts into their lyrics and music structure to give it an authentic Egyptian sound.

Some other bands that have come on the scene more recently that really push things forward are: Animals As Leaders, Scale the Summit, Born of Osiris (especially the second album), Periphery, Textures. The new Tessaract E.P. is amazing. There's so many more. Don't even get me started about awesome folkmetal groups.

There's a lot of crap, same as there always was, but talent is still out there. It's nice to know there are some fellow metal fans.

[NorthernChaosGod]

I'll agree with NCG here.

Though I'll also add in, there was a lot of freakin' music from days old we completely missed out on. All that's really remembered and talked about are the greats.

It's not like it was an age of nothing but originality. They had their fair share of soulless hacks who just did what every one else is doing.

It's just that now we have the internet, it's easier to not only find the good stuff, but to be overwhelmed by the flow of :bou::bou::bou::bou:.
This.

It's easy to look back on a decades past and only remember what was good about it and then turn on the radio and listen to the drivel that passes for music and wish for things to be the way they were.

I'll second the vote on BTBAM and Nile, both highly talented bands with great music. Opeth is an awesome prog metal band that does some great things musically as well.

[Shattered Dreamer]

Sorry guys but in the past few years I've found Metal to be an extremely boring genre of music! There is only so much guitar masturbation that a guy can listen too ya know.

If I had to pick between the 2 types named though I'd lean towards the neo classical because at least your musicianship has to be very very high for that kind of music to sound anyway decent. As for that Death Metal crap I would rather drive a railroad spike through my skull with a meat tenderizing hammer then listen to it for 5 seconds! I mean come on, listening to a guy growl like he has pretty bad stomach cramps while a guitarist plays scales and the lyrics are apparently about murder & burning churches & other things you do when you dress like a goth & hate the world(fyi I'm not ragging on the subject matter, not touching that topic with a barge pole), that is of course if you can understand the growling that is!

But notwithstanding what I've just said I'm into grunge, punk & hardcore so these days anything heavier just seems to much like white noise & hate on me for it or not but heavy metal is angry adolescent music as far as I'm concerned.

But be thankful Metal fans at least your music does require a decent standard of musicianship unlike Indie music :p

[Flying Arrow]

I used to be the absolute biggest metal fan. I still listen to a good deal of it, but I don't keep up to date with new releases. I generally don't feel like I'm hearing anything new so I'm way less patient (I'm also not 18). But there are still some class releases that come out every year that grab me. Although lately it's been from reliable sources (Mastodon, Enslaved, Ihsahn, Devin Townsend) - I haven't listened to/been exposed to anything that's new to me.

[Shoden]

There are some great modern bands out there but the norm, the spotlight, the cream of the crop shines the most repulsive and generic stuff. Yes, fusing and mixing genres to get a new sound is great but too much mixing and matching and it becomes a wall of noise. Especially since the digital revolution of music, the Line 6 era...

I just don't buy into this "designer" and "fashionable" pretty boy screamo metal sensation though. They're obviously shunned by the hardcore Death Metal scene of which these "core" bands like to associate themselves and their music with.

I like music that's creative, balanced between technical and melodic but also music that stands out, that can be told apart from other bands around. Which is what I'm aiming to do with my own band.

though for prog metal, I would define as Ayreon, Symphony X, Dream Theater and Stratovarius rather than Nile or Opeth. =\

Bands that combine the cliches of new with something else, like folk music, bands like Blind Guardian and Rhapsody of Fire standout too, but they actually have incredible singers who aren't trying to imitate a dying pig.

[Shattered Dreamer]

Bands that combine the cliches of new with something else, like folk music, bands like Blind Guardian and Rhapsody of Fire standout too, but they actually have incredible singers who aren't trying to imitate a dying pig.

A dying pig describes the noise most metal singers make perfectly :p

[sharkythesharkdogg]

Death growls and screams are a very polarizing vocal style. You love it or hate it. I think it's a great sound to have that conveys certain emotions in a way more traditional vocals can't. Just my opinion, many will heatedly disagree. Usually the best bands use some of each style. It's nice to have range, and to be flexible with your sound.

So are any other folks appreciating the "djent", "ambi-djent" scene recently? A lot of people write off the bands as Meshuggah 2.0, but many of them are much more.

And I also appreciate a lot of bands from the "core" scene. Many of them are totally shoving the tight pants and white belts in your face, but others are just regular folks who enjoy that music. Good for them.

EDIT: I keep going back and editing this because metal is one of my favorite genres. ha ha. Anyway, Another good example of scene kids pushing the envelope and actually poking fun at "the scene" is iwrestledabearonce. Talented, down to earth, good people.

Shoden, seriously give a listen to Animals As Leaders, Scale the Summit, and early Periphery before the vocalist came on board. They're all instrumental bands, so just give a listen to the music and see what you think. I think they're taking metal in great new, different directions.

[Shattered Dreamer]

That it from somebody who sings, death growls are just plain stupid! First because if you're an anyway decent singer you can use tone of voice, volume & projection in order to create a variant or convey emotion. People who growl or roar down a microphone do so because their singing ability is quite frankly horrific! Second, you are almost guaranteeing yourself surgery to have growths removed from your vocal chords because you're damaging them growling like a dying pig. Metallers beloved M Shadows from AX7 already had it done hence why he sings now more then makes animal noises! side note: I hate AX7

As for scream, if it is done well ie in key it can really add to song for example Jared Leto in the 30STM song Attack or Dave Grohl in Best Of You by the Foo Fighters. Then there is an entire genre of doing it wrong, I think it's called screamo or emo core lol

[Shoden]

I'll give them a listen, doubt I'll like them but they're worth a shot. Some growler bands are canny. Wintersun, Amon Amarth, Ensiferum. But I prefer clean vocals but also vocalists with range, a band without a good singer isn't necessarily a bad one but it can be a huge letdown, like Megadeth and Dream Theater for example.

Screaming, well the core metallers just take a page from the book of hardcore punk but REAL screaming, Rob Halford, Warrel Dane, Bruce Dickinson, Eric Adams and Tim Ripper Owens. Hitting some insane notes is a lot better than KSE/Bullet style.

Mind Falsetto's nothing new.

Also for style? er, "Wearing Jeans and Leather, not crackerjack clothes" a page from Manowar's Kings of Metal. Mind, Judas Priest and Saxon were doing the whole leather thing before them. (even if Rob Halford is openly gay, it all makes it kinda ironic. It was seen as the optimal peak of manliness and metal, he comes out the closet and it all gets put under the carpet like everything else out the 80's XD XD XD XD)

[sharkythesharkdogg]

That it from somebody who sings, death growls are just plain stupid! First because if you're an anyway decent singer you can use tone of voice, volume & projection in order to create a variant or convey emotion. People who growl or roar down a microphone do so because their singing ability is quite frankly horrific! Second, you are almost guaranteeing yourself surgery to have growths removed from your vocal chords because you're damaging them growling like a dying pig. Metallers beloved M Shadows from AX7 already had it done hence why he sings now more then makes animal noises! side note: I hate AX7

As for scream, if it is done well ie in key it can really add to song for example Jared Leto in the 30STM song Attack or Dave Grohl in Best Of You by the Foo Fighters. Then there is an entire genre of doing it wrong, I think it's called screamo or emo core lol

I hate AX7, too. They're douches. I love early Foo Fighters. So high five.:D

Doing it improperly does result in vocal chord damage. There are plenty of people who haven't done that to themselves.

Like I said, it's opinion. Just like any other form of expression. Some will love it, some will hate it.

You think people can convey those emotions through singing, I don't. It's at least not nearly as compelling. I love singing, and I think it's a great form of expression. I don't think it's the end all be all. Growls/screams etc. provide the right music with a primal energy. I'll state again I think the best, most versatile bands aren't afraid to delve into both styles.

Music is all about taste. You don't appreciate or even see how others appreciate aggressive vocals. No one says you have to, and even if they did, you don't. You're your own person. I don't think it's fair to claim they have no talent, though. They pour their hearts into those lyrics every night on the road. I can think of many passionless singers who just phone it in for the paycheck.

[sharkythesharkdogg]

I'll give them a listen, doubt I'll like them but they're worth a shot. Some growler bands are canny. Wintersun, Amon Amarth, Ensiferum. But I prefer clean vocals but also vocalists with range, a band without a good singer isn't necessarily a bad one but it can be a huge letdown, like Megadeth and Dream Theater for example.



That's cool, all I ask it that you give 'em a listen.

Anyone here like 3 inches of blood? So much fun.

[Pheesh]

You think people can convey those emotions through singing, I don't. It's at least not nearly as compelling. I love singing, and I think it's a great form of expression. I don't think it's the end all be all. Growls/screams etc. provide the right music with a primal energy. I'll state again I think the best, most versatile bands aren't afraid to delve into both styles.

What kind of emotions are you talking about? If it's anger/hate etc. then I would have to strongly disagree. You can scream your lungs out and sound incredibly angry without resorting to death metal growls and such. If you want examples listen to Jerk Off by Tool or So I Quit by Filter. Those songs the singers scream, sure, but there's tone in their voices when they do so, and it's not just guttural noises like most metal bands I've heard.

[Shoden]

Music is all about taste. You don't appreciate or even see how others appreciate aggressive vocals. No one says you have to, and even if they did, you don't. You're your own person. I don't think it's fair to claim they have no talent, though. They pour their hearts into those lyrics every night on the road. I can think of many passionless singers who just phone it in for the paycheck.

You can sing aggressively and angrily to convey the same emotions without resorting to growling though, its been done in Thrash Metal bands for the last 30 years. Shouting! If you can't sing decently at all, just shout, much easier than growling and better on the years. That's how I go about it. YouTube - Culloden: The Void (Take 9000!!!) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOZoqdil3BI) <- putting my money where my mouth is here and linking to some old rehearsal footage of my band, this is a song written by me, sang by me and I honestly do think this is a step in a better direction than being a core metaller. =\ it is all down to opinions but I do think there are steps in the wrong as well as right directions I suppose. Metal wont return to the glory days but if it all goes headstrong forward to a sort of core direction then all hope of the genre, for me, fades.

[sharkythesharkdogg]

[QUOTE=sharkythesharkdogg;2942516]

What kind of emotions are you talking about? If it's anger/hate etc. then I would have to strongly disagree. You can scream your lungs out and sound incredibly angry without resorting to death metal growls and such. If you want examples listen to Jerk Off by Tool or So I Quit by Filter. Those songs the singers scream, sure, but there's tone in their voices when they do so, and it's not just guttural noises like most metal bands I've heard.

It's totally fine that you disagree. That's your opinion. To my ear though, the screaming in those songs (I honestly listened to both all the way through) simply isn't as compelling. It's controlled, and it sounds like they're sacrificing emotion for tone. They're good songs, I listen to both bands. Not in regular rotation, but I have some of their stuff. As far as screaming is concerned I submit for example the band From Ashes Rise try the song The Final Goodbye or The Noise(I know, ha ha!). To me if you're going to sing on something that makes you angry or passionate, and you're going to be aggressive with your vocals, go balls out. The beauty of the sound is in the conviction of his voice. It's primal, raw, and makes the song. You'll probably hate it, but we shared out opinions and views, and that's cool to me.:)

[sharkythesharkdogg]

Music is all about taste. You don't appreciate or even see how others appreciate aggressive vocals. No one says you have to, and even if they did, you don't. You're your own person. I don't think it's fair to claim they have no talent, though. They pour their hearts into those lyrics every night on the road. I can think of many passionless singers who just phone it in for the paycheck.

You can sing aggressively and angrily to convey the same emotions without resorting to growling though, its been done in Thrash Metal bands for the last 30 years. Shouting! If you can't sing decently at all, just shout, much easier than growling and better on the years. That's how I go about it. YouTube - Culloden: The Void (Take 9000!!!) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOZoqdil3BI) <- putting my money where my mouth is here and linking to some old rehearsal footage of my band, this is a song written by me, sang by me and I honestly do think this is a step in a better direction than being a core metaller. =\ it is all down to opinions but I do think there are steps in the wrong as well as right directions I suppose. Metal wont return to the glory days but if it all goes headstrong forward to a sort of core direction then all hope of the genre, for me, fades.

Shoden, you're vocal delivery is just fine with me, but I imagine many on here would not agree and lump you in with all the other screamers, growlers, shouters, etc. I also think the drummer should explore those vocals he tried out in the first minute.:p

You seem to be viewing a genre or genres of metal you don't enjoy as the downfall of metal in general. Sorry, but wrong. If you don't like a certain style of metal do your own, and that's what you're doing. It may seem to you that the "core" scene is getting the most publicity, and maybe that's true, but the other areas of metal are alive and well. They won't die, mainly because people like you keep them alive.

I also can't see a band like Arsis, or Nile using your style vocals. It just wouldn't work to me. Their style is dark and sinister. You're vocals are nasty, and coarse. Good for metal, but not that style of metal. Someone else might totally disagree. I also couldn't see you singing for Melo-death like Skyfire, or power metal like Iron Savior. I absolutely think deathgrowls and the like are valid forms of vocals. Apparently not many others do. Shrug.

[Shoden]

Now that is fair enough, I do see the anti thesis to my likes as the downfall of metal but I build opinions around those likes and also dislikes. People agree and disagree with everything but that's why I made this thread. To see what others think, to see opinions collide and compromise.

Some people view something as dead as soon as it becomes underground and vice versa but what I view, is that once something becomes a fashion, a trend rather than the soul and sake of music and art, it's totally and utterly a bad thing.

Its all Metal, at heart but there are goods, bads, ups and downs that vary from person to person.

[NorthernChaosGod]

That it from somebody who sings, death growls are just plain stupid! First because if you're an anyway decent singer you can use tone of voice, volume & projection in order to create a variant or convey emotion. People who growl or roar down a microphone do so because their singing ability is quite frankly horrific! Second, you are almost guaranteeing yourself surgery to have growths removed from your vocal chords because you're damaging them growling like a dying pig. Metallers beloved M Shadows from AX7 already had it done hence why he sings now more then makes animal noises! side note: I hate AX7

As for scream, if it is done well ie in key it can really add to song for example Jared Leto in the 30STM song Attack or Dave Grohl in Best Of You by the Foo Fighters. Then there is an entire genre of doing it wrong, I think it's called screamo or emo core lol
M Shadows is not beloved. :p He was doing it wrong for years anyway.

And there are plenty of bands that to do both clean vocals and growls, they're good enough at both to make it sound quite nice. Saying otherwise just shows a bias that you're completely unwilling to overlook.

[sharkythesharkdogg]

Some people view something as dead as soon as it becomes underground and vice versa but what I view, is that once something becomes a fashion, a trend rather than the soul and sake of music and art, it's totally and utterly a bad thing.

Its all Metal, at heart but there are goods, bads, ups and downs that vary from person to person.

Okay. I can see many bands from many different metal genres that fit that mold, but if anything it's the bands that are pushing the fusion of sounds that don't follow trends of fashion or sound by default.

Also, just because a band's sound fits into a popular genre doesn't automatically mean they're doing it because it's the latest trend. Many of the groups play a certain sound because they love that sound. They've been at it for years, and even if no one like what they were doing they'd still do it.

In fact what many refer to as the glory days of metal, the '80s, had some of the biggest douche-rocket, in it for the money and the babes, no sound of our own, clone bands I've ever scene. That's something that has always been there, and will never go away.

[Shoden]

Oh yeah totally, a lot of the American Glam Metal bands were as generic as can be with their sound but they still had some riffs that far exceeded some modern metal riffs. Not just that, some of the glam bands like W.A.S.P. eventually evolved a sound that was as fantastic as can be for an American cheese metal act.

But the original acts of the NWOBHM movement, the early bands that labelled themselves as heavy metal were all doing the same thing up and down the country, countless bands, some made it big, some didn't and still some of those bands delivered some very original and wellthought riffs and material.

Even up here in the wastelands of North East England there's fantastic original bands, hell even now if you look past the indie tossers, Vendetta, Chaos Asylum for example for new and for old? There's bands like Blitzkrieg, Hollow Ground and Fist that delivered some fantastic material.

It seems to me that even in the past the commercial value of a band and their material overshadowed originality and the process of the music getting out to the people in the days before internet relied on getting signed and such.

=\ sucks but hey, we're lucky now. Every kind of band can get their music out there across the world at the click of a few buttons!! D: wow.
But yeah, the reason I kinda have a grudge against commercial modern metal bands, a canny load of them lack the kind of depth and soul something a bit more avant-garde would.

[nik0tine]

The biggest obstacle to originality in genres of 'alternative pop' like metal is the emphasis on the 'scene'. Despite all of the talk, most metalheads, skinheads, punks, etc. that I know aren't really 'in it' for the music so much as they are 'in it' for a place to belong. Metal is more than just music; it's a culture and culture is poisonous to original ideas.

You don't really see many (if any) metal musicians who don't look like metal heads. It's almost like theater on the bands part (I don't know about England, but in America we even call them 'shows'). These guys dress the part and the second they break that mold they are branded 'sellouts' by a bunch of whiny teenagers who, nevertheless, are the main source of income for the musician.
Imagine if a band came on stage dressed in a plain button up shirt and slacks? Or a tshirt and sweatpants? The whole community would lose it. Many people wouldn't even listen to the music at all because they would be too busy hollering about how the band wasn't as XxHardxCorexX as they are. When a community doesn't even allow a band to dress how they want there is no way in hell they will allow them to write original music.

In short, most alternative pop cultures are full of conformists and showmen. The only solution I have for something like metal is for the musicians to completely abandon the community and disregard their fans. It might also be helpful to move away from the 'fretboard masturbation' mentality that is so prevalent among rock communities.

But in my opinion, metal is for the most part obsolete and was rendered so long before it was born. Music like this, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdnanslmsJk&feature=related) this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ClDFmFmr0k&feature=related), or even this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHcBqfjqUJ8) expresses to me everything metal strives so hard to express - It's sinister and has the energy of anger and rage. It's violent and full of turmoil and it despairs. It expresses all of these things, but it does so with one instrument instead of 4+ and without any special effects. It has extremely daring and original chord progressions (and lots of them, too). All of this is contained within a very logical form that allows for the principal ideas to reaffirm themselves and make large scale musical 'arguments' that are greater than the individual melodies themselves.

Where do we find this kind of quality in 'alternative' music?

[Shoden]

Ideas are there to create an atmosphere, a feel, a story. The way that metal expresses it, especially in the more progressive forms requires a lot more than just one instrument. To me there's a limit to how distorted, how, downtuned, how fast something gets before it becomes lacking, before it comes devoid of all feeling, all emotion, all that there is to relate and peer into the song.

These days, its the same tricks, showboating and cliches, just with new masks. Guitar wanking, only letting the bass guitar play roots and have it mixed down, have the drums play the same 4-4 blast beat and some angsty boy, man, woman or donkey taking the helm of the vocals. That's what's seen as the most popular thing to do. (7-8 and 5-8 ftw.)

Its the sub genres that dare to be different than this direction the genre as a whole seems to be taking and whether or not it can be considered evolution, devolution or being stuck in a time, that stand out and have bands that I can go "oh wow, I like these, maybe there's hope for new metal bands yet" and then I see another emo screamo alternative post hardcore technical alternative nu metal band that's just the same as hundreds of others out there doing the exact same thing.

Conforming to labels, new labels, new names, new sub genres when there's barely a change in the style at all. Its great to be different and create different atmospheres, experiment with different chord progressions, its great when there are bands, movements, clusters of Heavy Metal acts that bring something inspired, full of its cliches, full of its culture, its fandom just anything else, bands that stand out.

I'm not talking about Lamb of God, Slipknot, Bullet for My Valentine, Dying Fetus
I'm not taling about Opeth, Dragonforce

I'm talking about some really different acts that stand out, Mael Mordha, a Doom/Folk Metal band from ireland, they write some lyrics in Gaelic.

Ayreon, a progressive metal rock opera project featuring some of power metal's biggest singers.

Blind Guardian, while not exactly new they keep evolving and changing.

Iron Maiden too, since they reformed they have been fantastic and I don't care if all the 80's fanboys who want the C D E galloping 3 minute wonders back, their new progressive, deeper, inspired and experimental sound is fantastic and an inspiration for all even today.


You know, ironically Progressive rock was banged, it was blasted and criticised for its technicality, song lengths and structures but as its elements make a return to some metal bands, it kinda brings new life but the thing is, you gotta be one hell of a musician or group of musicians to pull off this kinda stuff.

Neoclassical got old when Malmsteen, Jason Becker and Marty Friedman bummed it in the 80's and 90's, it was new and revolutionary at the time but it became a monster that spiralled out of control. Bands like Helloween managed it fine but after their guitarist and singer left after the 3rd album they stagnated. Kai Hansen went on to form Gamma Ray who are another fantastic band.

Metal wont die, but it will change again and again and again for good and for worse. The cliches are there, the props are there, even though they've changed. I'd rather see a pub cover band or a tribute act than some emocore act though. North east England has some of the best when it comes to tributes and cover bands that apparently capture the passion and the image of a band but wait that reminds me of something else.


Passion, passion for the music. Yeah getting somewhere's all about image and marketability of their music but passion, knowledge, inspiration and just enjoying yourself is why metal hasn't died yet.

What's more entertaining when seeing a load of leather and spandex clad long haired men with guitar peen? XD (even if now its rather a load of floppy haired, make up wearing, tight jeans and fashionable shoes and shirts kids)

Well yeah, its good to look back at what it was.

PS: This is sloppy as hell, I'm kinda really tired and its a very half arsed rant mean no disrespect to your points above lol, I read them I see them loud and clear. I kinda went into rant mode and kinda gave up before replying to your points.

[sharkythesharkdogg]

The biggest obstacle to originality in genres of 'alternative pop' like metal is the emphasis on the 'scene'. Despite all of the talk, most metalheads, skinheads, punks, etc. that I know aren't really 'in it' for the music so much as they are 'in it' for a place to belong. Metal is more than just music; it's a culture and culture is poisonous to original ideas.

You don't really see many (if any) metal musicians who don't look like metal heads. It's almost like theater on the bands part (I don't know about England, but in America we even call them 'shows'). These guys dress the part and the second they break that mold they are branded 'sellouts' by a bunch of whiny teenagers who, nevertheless, are the main source of income for the musician.
Imagine if a band came on stage dressed in a plain button up shirt and slacks? Or a tshirt and sweatpants? The whole community would lose it. Many people wouldn't even listen to the music at all because they would be too busy hollering about how the band wasn't as XxHardxCorexX as they are. When a community doesn't even allow a band to dress how they want there is no way in hell they will allow them to write original music.

In short, most alternative pop cultures are full of conformists and showmen. The only solution I have for something like metal is for the musicians to completely abandon the community and disregard their fans. It might also be helpful to move away from the 'fretboard masturbation' mentality that is so prevalent among rock communities.



Certainly if you are to watch many more dramatic bands (Behemoth, Dimmu Borgir, all the way back to Alice Cooper or KISS) there is a LARGE amount of showmanship and theater involved. That created a group following that certainly mimed their fashion and shunned others who didn't follow suit. Their style is "dinner and a show". They all have some good songs, other than KISS, and the theatrics are just part of their art.

I disagree that this mentality pervasive all genres. Especially when it comes progressive metal and experimental genres. The bands and the fans are much more concerned about the music than what anyone is wearing. It attracts so many different types of people that a common fashion or mentality just really isn't even considered.

I don't know why the rest of the band isn't there, but for example here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt-RoSzsEKA&feature=related) is the lead guitarist for a group i enjoy, Animals as Leaders. That's his style of dress at every show I've seen him at. The other members dress however they feel, and all the fans dress how they feel. Mostly jeans and t-shirts honestly, but it doesn't really matter. Last time I had on khakis and a polo shirt, I think. Who cares?

Here's another (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQps1QFVZME&feature=related) example. It's Between the Buried and Me. These guys get very heavy, but no one has any "deathface" make-up on or anything. Once again, the fans are just regular people too. They do it for the love of creating the music.

A third sampling is Periphery (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEDTVVnKOYM). They all dress like average folks, and when I saw them so did I.

Honestly, if I showed up in a tux at one of these shows I'd get a lot of stares, but I don't think I'd be messed with. It would just be viewed as unusual. If I were to go one of the shows you linked in your post wearing what would be considered common dress for the time, I don't know if I would have been let in. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find there was a dress code, and my clothes were too casual. You don't think the shows you used as an example had a fan base with it's own group mentality or fashion laws? I do.

I dress in what's comfortable for any show I go to. Others do dress for fashion or to fit in, but I've never been made to feel unwelcome. So even then, I don't think it matters.

ALL forms of music create bands and fan bases that make their own weird rules. They want to belong to the music. It's human nature. There will always be the more rational group that simply comes to play or listen to the music. The music belongs to them.

[Shoden]

KISS are fantastic live, their musicianship is nothing like it was, Paul Stanley can barely hit any notes and Gene Simmons is a terrible bass player BUT, they have a HUGE franchise, a HUGE fanbase and following and global acclaim. Why? Because they put on a damn good show. And have their name branded on everything possible. XD

Thrash Metal and its corresponding relative sub genres were sparked as a complete separation from all the showy, Glam Rock, Glam Metal stuff. They wanted to play music for the sake of just playing, enjoying and living the life of a rockstar. No getups. Just everyday casual clothing.

I agree and disagree with that though, having a difference betwen the offstage you and onstage you can make a stronger connection to the fans to the band but, isn't that a connection to the image? I suppose image does rule everything foremost.

I do think as well, that there should be no pressure or rule to say you gotta dress, or follow a certain fashion to play a certain style. That's what all the "Posers" "sell outs" labels are, there are people who think music is a fashionable image, a scene kid's paradise where they just follow whoever's "in" and "out" as popular music comes and goes. There are people like that who exist and I don't like them. Saays its all XD XD haha

Metal, Music is music first, everything else 2nd. More fun that way! IMO :3

[sharkythesharkdogg]

If you don't like "scene kids" and "sell outs", then frankly I'm surprised that you can even respect KISS's older stuff. I mean they have the KISS Army for christsake's. How much better of an example of "sheeple" do you need? :p I admit they were revolutionary for the time, but now? I mean the disco album? That was all for money.

I can't take their show seriously because I just have in the back of my mind that they don't do it because they love the music and putting on a show. They love making money. They've become the biggest bunch of sell out, corporate, money making, whores I've seen.

There's a difference between success and compromising who you are. I feel like they shunned everything else to not compromise making money a long time ago.

end rant. personal opinion.

[Shoden]

Gene Simmons is a filthy money hungry... er actually he fits the Jewish stereotype and he actually is Jewish. XD (I find that insanely funny, its not a pisstake or a stab incase some PC git comes here and hounds me, Simmons is Jewish by blood. The stereotype is they love money!)

I agree they have taken it a bit far with commercialisation of everything but is it not respectable? how big they've become? I think it is, I'm not the biggest or most dedicated fan, I just went to a show, wanted to be entertained and well yeah they did alright, what they lacked for musically they made up for in absolute showmanship.

There's a difference between KISS and scene bands, in the fact that scene bands don't even care for their show, they care for their image and commercial value of their music. KISS are money hungry, ripoff, ingenious businessman as well as a band that cashes in on their image which in turn goes into endorsing and merchandising more and making more elaborate shows.

Apart from that, they're just a run of the mill rock band with multiple singers and some catchy songs. Love Gun, God Of Thunder, War Machine.

Actually I liked them best in the no makeup era, typical 80's cheese. urgh XD the horrors, still canny stuff and yeah they are money loving whores but they've earned it, its despicable as much as it is respectable, they were once clowns busking on the streets of new york. now they're rich.

Jammy bastards!

Best show I've seen has to either be Judas Priest or Saxon though, they combined the 2 together, showmanship and musicianship. Metallica were pretty cool but their sound was crap. Newcastle's Metroradio arena sucks.

There are bands that can be considered metal that are still going, haven't changed a bit. Motorhead. I mean who would dare go up to Lemmy and say "do something different!" XD he'd get kicked in, poor sod. Plus they're stubborn, they play what they want as they like it, fair enough.

Lemmy is a god he can do what he wants. Better than KISS anyday :p

[sharkythesharkdogg]

Gene Simmons is a filthy money hungry... er actually he fits the Jewish stereotype and he actually is Jewish. XD (I find that insanely funny, its not a pisstake or a stab incase some PC git comes here and hounds me, Simmons is Jewish by blood. The stereotype is they love money!)

I agree they have taken it a bit far with commercialization of everything but is it not respectable? how big they've become? I think it is, I'm not the biggest or most dedicated fan, I just went to a show, wanted to be entertained and well yeah they did alright, what they lacked for musically they made up for in absolute showmanship.

There's a difference between KISS and scene bands, in the fact that scene bands don't even care for their show, they care for their image and commercial value of their music. KISS are money hungry, ripoff, ingenious businessman as well as a band that cashes in on their image which in turn goes into endorsing and merchandising more and making more elaborate shows.

Apart from that, they're just a run of the mill rock band with multiple singers and some catchy songs. Love Gun, God Of Thunder, War Machine.

Actually I liked them best in the no makeup era, typical 80's cheese. urgh XD the horrors, still canny stuff and yeah they are money loving whores but they've earned it, its despicable as much as it is respectable, they were once clowns busking on the streets of new york. now they're rich.

Jammy bastards!

Best show I've seen has to either be Judas Priest or Saxon though, they combined the 2 together, showmanship and musicianship. Metallica were pretty cool but their sound was crap. Newcastle's Metroradio arena sucks.

There are bands that can be considered metal that are still going, haven't changed a bit. Motorhead. I mean who would dare go up to Lemmy and say "do something different!" XD he'd get kicked in, poor sod. Plus they're stubborn, they play what they want as they like it, fair enough.

Lemmy is a god he can do what he wants. Better than KISS anyday :p

Actually, no. I don't think it's respectable at all. The other bands you've mentioned yourself have made a pretty solid living for themselves without going that route. KISS wanted more money, and compromised everything musically real about themselves to get it. It's their choice, but I really don't see how you can hate on what you refer to as "scene bands" for image and commercial value of music when that's exactly what KISS has done.

The difference is KISS has made millions, and most of these little bands still eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches 3 squares a day riding around the country in a van. Every band is trying to make a living playing music. Maybe some of the newer bands like Killswitch Engage or Behemoth have been more successful. Maybe that is because they have a certain sound that is popular right now, but I don't see Killswitch Engage brand condoms, or Behemoth cologne. KISS has those. Take a look. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiss_merchandising) Some might call it clever marketing, I call it shameless.

Maybe many bands are selling or creating an image for their fans to believe in and follow. I don't buy into it, but I don't blame others who do. I just don't think it's fair to write them off entirely just because they push that image.

I respectfully submit to you, Shoden, that you don't buy their image because you don't buy their sound. If doesn't grab you, and to your ear sounds hollow. Therefore, the image they portray and their fans also ring hollow. So they come across is trying to hard and selling out. Their fans are all fake idiots.

Music and showmanship have gone hand in hand since the beginning of music. Maybe when ancient man first stared leaping and rolling around the campfire to the sound of a simple drumbeat, there was one caveman who didn't buy into the dancing and thought it was idiotic. He just listened to the music. :p

That's all opinion, though. How badass is Maiden's stage presence and image? I think we can it agree it's legendary. I know there are other people who think it's corny and don't buy it. So to them perhaps Maiden is a corny bunch of sell outs pimping their image and tired sound to their mindless fans.

It all comes back to opinion. The asshole of conversations everywhere.

But yes, Lemmy is a BAMF. Well put.

[Shoden]

It is true, KISS did and still do put their brand ahead of their music. But their latest album has music that's barely commercial at all and will still sell and makes millions because it has the KISS brand on it.
They have everything and more, they charge a lot of merchandise. I had to pay £30 for a tour shirt at their gig and usually I pay £20 for a shirt, the Gene Simmons signature bass is £6000 and its horrible. I'd rather have my Rickenbackers over them anyday!

They're just a good show band, they put a lot of money and effort into the show but. Then again. Isn't that to make a maximum profit from the show? And get more people to come to their shows?
KISS are just the absolute cliche of glam rock times a thousand and still to this day they are.

Their music was and still is nothing unique or special, some cool riffs and such here and there but really they are nothing special, they did change their sound to fit the changing scene in the 80's when they took off their makeup and changed back again to a grungier sound that didn't work too well before reverting back to their original lineup, toured a bit, changed members.

It all about money! I do agree about that. Its the same formula, change your image and music to gain popularity.
A fashion show with a bunch of mediocre musicians posing on stage going through songs that angsty teengirls would orgasm over. XD

What exactly the scene band thing is, is that there are hundreds upon hundreds of bands doing the exact same thing with the exact same formulas for being a band. I can't tell the difference between You Me At Six, My Chemical Romance, Bring Me The Horizon, Black Dahlia Murder, Cryptosy or Whitechapel XD there's probably MORE Trivium, Killswitch Engage, Machine Head, Bullet for My Valentine, Funeral For a Friend. They're all clones of one and other I swear.

That's what I don't like, they're all trying to be one and other, nothing unique, nothing new, special and this is what's killing metal. There's less bands wanting to be original and revolutionary and more bands that want to stick to this trap. =\ They call themselves metal so I'll humour them and evn if I don't classify these bands as metal, well that doesn't matter in the comparison, unless you're Dragonforce and call yourself EXTREME METAL!

[NorthernChaosGod]

Dragonforce is awesome. What are you talking about? :|

[Shoden]

They WERE. First 2 albums were amazing, absolutely amazing, the last 2 have been very mediocre. They're not a band but their tendency to try and be different by forcing a different label or sub genre on themselves is a bit lol

[NorthernChaosGod]

Who cares what they call themselves? If I ever make it big in a band I'm making up a damn label and you all have to use it. :colbert:

Through the Fire and Flames is still cool, I don't care what you say.

[Shoden]

Who cares what they call themselves? If I ever make it big in a band I'm making up a damn label and you all have to use it. :colbert:

Through the Fire and Flames is still cool, I don't care what you say.

XD, awesome. Its a bit of a silly publicity stunt I reckon, making up a sub genre just to be different, there's more than just words and labels required to be different.

Its an awesome song but now its so overplayed and it overshadows the true classics like Soldiers of The Wasteland, Fury of the Storm, Valley of the Damned and Blackfire!!

Wait did I just call Dragonforce songs classics? OH GODS XD (nah nah jk, its just ironic that I use the term when I'm such an oldie)

[NorthernChaosGod]

Everything is less awesome than Prepare for War - just sayin'.

[sharkythesharkdogg]

They're just a good show band, they put a lot of money and effort into the show but. Then again. Isn't that to make a maximum profit from the show? And get more people to come to their shows?
KISS are just the absolute cliche of glam rock times a thousand and still to this day they are.

It all about money! I do agree about that. Its the same formula, change your image and music to gain popularity.
A fashion show with a bunch of mediocre musicians posing on stage going through songs that angsty teengirls would orgasm over. XD

What exactly the scene band thing is, is that there are hundreds upon hundreds of bands doing the exact same thing with the exact same formulas for being a band. I can't tell the difference between You Me At Six, My Chemical Romance, Bring Me The Horizon, Black Dahlia Murder, Cryptosy or Whitechapel XD there's probably MORE Trivium, Killswitch Engage, Machine Head, Bullet for My Valentine, Funeral For a Friend. They're all clones of one and other I swear.

That's what I don't like, they're all trying to be one and other, nothing unique, nothing new, special and this is what's killing metal. There's less bands wanting to be original and revolutionary and more bands that want to stick to this trap. =\ They call themselves metal so I'll humour them and evn if I don't classify these bands as metal, well that doesn't matter in the comparison, unless you're Dragonforce and call yourself EXTREME METAL!

Nothing compares to Disciples of Babylon, Revelations, and Fields of Despair. Ohhhh, I get goose bumps. Anyway.

I don't think KISS is a good show band. That's the point I'm trying to make you consider, Shoden. It's my opinion, but it's also only your opinion that the "scene" bands are unoriginal sell outs. I listen to bands that have a similar sound to KISS, but don't have the same doucher aura around them. I dislike KISS, but not specifically for the music. I just think that if there's any band here that doesn't care about the music or the show any more, it's KISS. They just do it for the paycheck. Once again, my opinion.

How many bands sell the same sound and image as Dragon Force? Ass loads. Why? Because it's all power/fantasy metal. (Extreme metal:p whatever). Dragon Force is not original either. You have Iron Savior (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTAgbL80YHQ&feature=related), Gamma Ray (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvk1BfH2_mc&feature=related), Galneryus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hL-iO86vdI), Sonata Artica (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-4DnwPjuPM), Stratovarius (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ubKaNrfwVI&feature=related). The list goes on, and on. They all have the same tight pants, long hair, leather jackets, the same song structure, and the same 5 minute guitar solos. I still think they are all awesome. They just aren't original. They do nothing to push the metal scene forward. They have their genre, and I'm fine with that.

You just enjoy the music, so you can appreciate their show, their merch, their fans, and their "scene" more.

If you can't tell the difference between My Chemical Romance and Whitechapel, well just wow.....You might not like certain genres of metal, but there is obviously a difference. MCR isn't even metal.

If anything the "scene" bands are pushing forward a newer genre of metal than any of the bands you've mentioned. You might not like their sound/sounds (many of the bands you mentioned have different sounds), but it's shaking things up. Yes, there are many bands that sound alike in the "scene" band area, but that's the point I'm trying to make. There are a TON of unoriginal bands in every metal genre. That doesn't mean they aren't talented, or that they're stagnating metal. It just means they aren't the band for you.:) There's nothing wrong with that. Everyone has their own personal tastes in music.

The freshest sounds coming from metal are the bands I mentioned several posts ago that you said you'd listen to. On a side note, I really am curious to see what you thought of them.

[Shoden]

I've been a huge fan of Gamma Ray and Stratovarius for a while, kai Hansen is a talented individual who even in the days of Helloween was a force to be reckoned with as a songwriter and a musician. Every band he's been in and played a part in such Iron Saviour and Helloween as well as Gamma Ray have really been original.

Songwriting skills is something that not everyone has in a band and yeah anyone can snap up a guitar learn a few chords and learn the metal rhythms and tbh, I think that's what the forefront of the scene band brigade is, nothing too serious, revolutionary, nothing fantastic and some of the bands get so much praise, they get labelled as the next generation, the new wave of metal and there are bands out there who don't get the recognition they deserve for being different, original and passionate.

Power Metal is FULL of cliches hell yeah, C D E 4-4 200bpm dungeons and dragons, wizards and odin with a twin lead guitar showdown.

Gamma Ray though, are power metal but Rebellion in Dreamland compared to Armageddon, Beyond The Black Hole, Heart of the Unicorn, Into The Storm, each one is very different to the other. Some fit the cliche like a nice clean pair of socks and others are like wow, a religious experience almost.

Stratovarius, some albums are fantastic but a lot of their songs are uninspired and lacking, which happens when you have the whole Yngwie Malmsteen's illegitimate child thing going on with the guitarist. Neo classical, kinda gets old after a while.

Speed isn't everything either.

There are other power metal titans out there. Avantasia, Ayreon, Blind Guardian, Rhapsody of Fire, Symphony X, Hammerfall and even Helloween and Manowar I'd call power Metal.

I did look into them bands you mentioned, I didn't hear anything that really clicked with me though, sadly. =(


But aye, Power Metal's a shadow of its former self, the big boys are pushing forward and exploring other styles whilst keeping their fantasy, mythology and literature inspired theme close to heart. Blind Guardian's last album was absolutely amazing.

I believe that for any band of any genre to really make an impact and show that metal's not dead, needs some form of progression in their music, something that makes it all worth it.

Dragonforce were a good band, VERY good but the bands mentioned there and in your last post show that they're just lucky, another power metal band but they got their fame and they went downhill.

Oh and MCR there was an accident didn't mean to put them in.

Just to say, one of my favourite extreme genres has to be Doom Metal. Think Early Black Sabbath but with the dark, heavy and operatic vocals of modern metal. slow it right down, crank up the distortion and you have some VERY atmospheric stuff. There's a band called Mael Mordha who do it and combine piano and folk instruments into their sound. Isole is good too as is Electric Wizard.

If there's another bone I must pick, I think its the difference in sound. The 70's and early 80's had the best tones from the amps, you had to play like you meant it to get a good overdrive (I've played with amps from that era) and a bass player could use as much treble and volume as they liked without the guitarist moaning about their lack of a spotlight. =p

If all the bands reverted to valve amps, the tone from that era THEN we'd see who the real players are. The age of Line 6 everything is a horrible thing!

Oh, and songs over 5 minutes are godly. Just saying. Old or new. Anything over 10 minutes is beyond godly, if it can be pulled off because you have to be a hell of a songwriter and a skilled musician to pull that off and not loop the same 3 chords over and over. To make a progressive song, fuck me, must take a lot.

Keyboards, Keyboards are not gay in any way and should be used more. Bass, should be louder and singers should sing like they mean it. More baritones and bass singers like mr Johnny Cash please, less super high singers! D:

Ok Now I'm getting carried away!!

[NorthernChaosGod]

Tubes are whack, man. They're heavier, more expensive, and have a lot less power for the wattage.

[Shoden]

I shoulda just said Analogue lol
I'm a bass player so I know little about guitar amps. Oops

[sharkythesharkdogg]

Songwriting skills is something that not everyone has in a band and yeah anyone can snap up a guitar learn a few chords and learn the metal rhythms and tbh, I think that's what the forefront of the scene band brigade is, nothing too serious, revolutionary, nothing fantastic and some of the bands get so much praise, they get labelled as the next generation, the new wave of metal and there are bands out there who don't get the recognition they deserve for being different, original and passionate.

I did look into them bands you mentioned, I didn't hear anything that really clicked with me though, sadly. =(

I believe that for any band of any genre to really make an impact and show that metal's not dead, needs some form of progression in their music, something that makes it all worth it.

If there's another bone I must pick, I think its the difference in sound. The 70's and early 80's had the best tones from the amps, you had to play like you meant it

Oh, and songs over 5 minutes are godly. Just saying. Old or new. Anything over 10 minutes is beyond godly, if it can be pulled off because you have to be a hell of a songwriter and a skilled musician to pull that off and not loop the same 3 chords over and over. To make a progressive song, smurf me, must take a lot.

Keyboards, Keyboards are not gay in any way and should be used more. Bass, should be louder and singers should sing like they mean it. More baritones and bass singers like mr Johnny Cash please, less super high singers! D:

Ok Now I'm getting carried away!!

First, don't look at this as judgment, but observation. I think you're conflicted. Your views are torn. It angers you that the genres you like don't get the recognition of the "scene" bands. I think that's because the "scene" bands have a newer sound. Even doom metal can trace it's origins back to the 70's. Death metal, black metal, and their "core" derivatives can trace their roots back basically to the early 90's. Maybe their sound is starting to become tired as well, but it's still much newer.

You're a self proclaimed "oldie". It seems you want bands that sound good to your ear to be held high again, and to keep pushing the sound forward. That's not the job of the "scene" bands, that's the job of those bands. If the sound isn't getting recognized by people, maybe the need to push harder.

Do me a favor. It'll take a minute, but I'd appreciate it. Listen to this song. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt-RoSzsEKA)
Now try this one. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmfzWpp0hMc)
Try to listen to both ENTIRELY. Even if you don't like the sound, can you really say it's not trying new things? Is it not pushing things forward? They're talented, intelligent song writers.

It has many other aspects you asked for. They play fast, they play slow, one song uses a keyboard, the songs are over 5 minutes, they have a classic powermetal solo near the end of one song, and no one is screaming or wearing eyeliner. They use odd time signatures, and many other jazz/blues stylings in their music. There's no scene kids, they play the music because they love it.

[NorthernChaosGod]

Do me a favor. It'll take a minute, but I'd appreciate it. Listen to this song. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt-RoSzsEKA)
Now try this one. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmfzWpp0hMc)
Try to listen to both ENTIRELY. Even if you don't like the sound, can you really say it's not trying new things? Is it not pushing things forward? They're talented, intelligent song writers.

It has many other aspects you asked for. They play fast, they play slow, one song uses a keyboard, the songs are over 5 minutes, they have a classic powermetal solo near the end of one song, and no one is screaming or wearing eyeliner. They use odd time signatures, and many other jazz/blues stylings in their music. There's no scene kids, they play the music because they love it.
Okay, both of those songs are awesome. I'm definitely checking out more of that guy's work.

[Shoden]

8 String guitar? son of a bitch man, that's some insane stuff.
That style is pushing things forward and I don't mean to come off with the attitude of "only play 3 chord 3 minute wonders 80's style" even back in these days I prefer the more different stuff from the norm, the standouts you wouldn't see on top of the pops lol.

as much as I like difference I really don't see the point of multiple string basses though, 5 and 6 stringers... (More strings makes you more skilled, that's what some of my friends say. Nah)

First 3 Metallica albums, first 3 Helloween albums, Dio era Black Sabbath, Rush's Moving Pictures, Judas Priest's British Steel, Screaming for Vengeance, Defenders of the Faith albums, Iron Maiden's Somewhere In Time, Powerslave and Seventh Son of a Seventh Son album. That was the 80's for me as well as the NWOBHM standouts like Saxon

Then came the 90's with Gamma Ray, Blind Guardian, Iced Earth, Symphony X and Grave Digger who all last to this day evolving.

I am bitter yeah, and good reason, bands who conform their image and music to what the scene demands are taken higher in the scale of recognition than the bands who put their heart and soul into playing music for the sake of music, art.

As soon as you start playing for the sake of the needs of someone else, you've done what most people would call "selling out" and what that means, to me, is selling your soul musically.

I like how some of the bands from the New Wave of British Heavy Metal era such as Iron Maiden, Judas Priest and Saxon have evolved the sound that they helped create, they've changed their sound to experiment and Maiden and Priest more so, have changed to compensate for the increasing age of their frontmen too resulting in a thicker, heavier and more modern sound while probably not intentional it serves as a fitting example that in this modern world the ideals, the heart and soul of the prime time of metal can be transposed into today.

A darker, progressive, more atmospheric style that maybe a bit more technical and advanced than their old stuff but its still fantastic.

Some power metal bands such as Blind Guardian and Symphony X have picked up on this and evolved their own sounds while others like Gamma Ray just keep changing anyways as they keep experimenting and playing around, enjoying.

The best bands have a mix. A mix between progression, variation, dedication, Intelligence, Skill, Speed and respect of all instruments in their band allowing even the drums, bass and keys to take a more avant garde approach.

[sharkythesharkdogg]

I'm serious guys. If you DO like that, check out Periphery (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0zTTgl4Gk4), and Tesseract (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asNMm8Y99Dk) that I mentioned in my above posts. I don't think you'll be disappointed, and they deserve the new fans.

I mean Tesseract is another term for a "hypercube" that can only be seen in the 4th dimension or above. It's a polytope. While I'm not an expert I think it might be a nod at their frequent use of polyrhythms in their song structures. With a name like that you know they're trying new things. :p

[sharkythesharkdogg]

Do me a favor. It'll take a minute, but I'd appreciate it. Listen to this song. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt-RoSzsEKA)
Now try this one. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmfzWpp0hMc)
Try to listen to both ENTIRELY. Even if you don't like the sound, can you really say it's not trying new things? Is it not pushing things forward? They're talented, intelligent song writers.

It has many other aspects you asked for. They play fast, they play slow, one song uses a keyboard, the songs are over 5 minutes, they have a classic powermetal solo near the end of one song, and no one is screaming or wearing eyeliner. They use odd time signatures, and many other jazz/blues stylings in their music. There's no scene kids, they play the music because they love it.
Okay, both of those songs are awesome. I'm definitely checking out more of that guy's work.

His name is Tosin Abasi, if that helps.

Shoden, thanks for giving it a listen. Even if you don't like the sound, I think you can agree they're real musicians. I agree that a lot of those band you mention ARE changing. But they're changing within their genre. You hear them and you know what it is. Perhaps that's just not enough to bring them back to the heyday of when the sound was completely fresh and new. Eventually most of the uncreative bands of this new wave of metal will fade away, and the bigger more original that started the newer genres will keep their loyal fan base. The other fans will move on to the next big sound. That's just the way things are. I have bands from each genre that I listen to. Almost all metal has something valid it brings to the table.

On a lighter note, and for those who haven't seen it, I give you death metal rooster (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A43JOxLa5MM&feature=related).

[NorthernChaosGod]

I actually saw his name already, but thanks. I'm listening to Animals as Leader's album right now and I have to say, it's really fucking good.

[Jiro]

I shouldn't be in here :shifty: but I can't help but be reminded of the opening scenes from Brutal Legend.

[Shoden]

I shouldn't be in here :shifty: but I can't help but be reminded of the opening scenes from Brutal Legend.

Yeah I would love for a huge gaping metal monster to rise and destroy all these poser bands :D

[spirit]

I started listening to metal music this year, actually last year, I searched out several several bands. To be honest, a lot of it seems very generic and flat to me, once you take in the whole picture...it seems to lack depth, feeling, soul, because it all sounds like another band before or after it.

My favorite band is still Within Temptation, and shoot me but I still enjoy some of Evanescence as it was the first band of that type of sound I heard and since then it still some how stands out for me.

The fan base of metal, at first I was looking for something with force and power and that music exhilarated me and fueled me then I began to realize how positively charged metal heads had become so closed minded and judgmental of others. Now, I still enjoy a few bands, but I'm not so big and full on the music itself...it is what it is and I happen to enjoy some of it...

:)

Poser this, poser that...I love this, I hate that...good for you, good for all of you. Music is what it is. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, no one is in control of how others must express their selves in their music and what I can and can not enjoy...

This all happened in just one year. Wow, this is one of the most organic posts I've had here in a while.

[Shoden]

There's stuff like that all around though, if you're passionate about certain styles, where people have a natural talent for creating various forms of atmospheres and see generic screamo getting hailed as the new frontier its all bollocks really, standing up and saying. "why do they get recognition for being uncreative and generic and the passionate skilled band get nothing?" Its a game of conformity. If you don't conform to the scene you're not doing enough to push the genre forward.

If you conform to the scene you're a sellout, a poser, scum.

Here are bands who know what an atmosphere is and how to make atmospheric and deep music. With examples.

Avantasia: YouTube - Avantasia-The Scarecrow full song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3QyxdWeOiw)

Symphony X: YouTube - Symphony X - Communion and the Oracle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbvgt-QugWk)

Blind Guardian: YouTube - Blind Guardian - Sacred Worlds [lyrics] - HQ Audio (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix_mG-ETPFo)

Manowar: YouTube - MANOWAR: Gods of War (Live Germany 2007) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxLNz2u9ELk)


This is what people would call cheesy, unoriginal, unpopular, Yet what there is in these songs are elements any good songwriter needs. Passion, Atmosphere, variation, knowledge of wtf you're doing.

[spirit]

I may also percieve that a lof of metal is generic and bland. Though, not every one is what you may consider a purist. Though they may be considered what they considere a purist. Some people may not care at all about "the historical context of a musical genre".

You may be in danger of being considered a poser yourself if you go around beliving that you have to make a effort to be a true "metalhead". After all if you have the same standards for music, what may set you apart from all those "posers" who are trying to be what they percieve true "metalheads"?

What may set you apart could be percieved as simple or complex. Simply, taste, complex, it could be philosphy if you would, or simply waves of time.

I admit the more I listen to metal bands the more I percieve that I percieve they are similar.

There happens to be many many forms of metal music...it's really suprising.

[Shoden]

That's just it, its a vicious cycle and conflict of fanbases. Some kids want to give the 2 finger salute to history and be modern and fashionable, conformists.

Some people want to glorify the past to create a future where care and passion, respect and knowledge for the music you're trying to create are the lowdowns.

Its a game of who's right and who's wrong, sub genres have sprouted in conflict against the other. Thrash Metal came to be as a direct rejection of the glam rock and glam metal image.

Power Metal came to be in the desire to play fast without having be a bunch of angsty teenagers pissed off at the world.

You've always had people who try to turn music into a fashion show and push that ideal forward. The mod movement was like that but you also had the punk movement which was a direct result of the rise of progressive rock.

People wanted to be able to play music without having to be technically advanced theorists.

But that's just it, why should people who don't give a toss about the music be considered and rated more highly than the people who live and breathe for it?

I reject the reality that you have to be a marketable, commercial, fashionable and dumbed down, thick as pig:bou::bou::bou::bou: band to get success. Simple as, if that makes me a conformist to anti conformity, well so be it. I have respect for people who don't play music to "pick up chicks" to "look good" because "its cools" without all the poser bollocks.

People who live, breathe and die for the sake of their art. Music is an art and the more seriously and passionate you take it the more respect you deserve.

And that is what metal is in some forms, a desire to take what rock music was and kick it up a notch, to dedicate, study and melt some faces. Simples.

[spirit]

Do you listen to Dragonland?

[Shoden]

I don't no but reading up on them I MIGHT just like them. Never heard of them til you mentioned them there. :)

[sharkythesharkdogg]

On the subject of metal being alive and well with different genres pushing the sound in a thousand different directions..........some you'll love, some you'll hate. I think all this stuff is freaking awesome. Shrug.

LunarSea-Beside the Driver (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86L494hVLqM) Power Metal with melo-death overtones

Nightwish-Planet Hell (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR-16SX4Vv4) Operatic/Symphonic Metal The woman's vocals are pretty awesome.

Paeredoks-La Cerveza Mas Fina (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFUTv0-p-bQ) ambient trance/djent All songs instrumental.

Cynic-Evolutionary Sleeper (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fhVLykF3nU) Very jazz inspired jam metal.

Arsis-Face of My Innocence (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHC9w7pCIMQ) Melodic Death Metal

Textures-Awake (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSYNhfkNGco) 90's rock grunge with djent. Great combo!

Scale the Summit-Age of Tides (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCzcgq4AJDQ) Trance/Math Metal Progressive. All songs instrumental.

Born of Osiris-Now Arise (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CGwnwKaF10) Math Metal/Djent core. Tosin Abasi of Animals As Leaders was their guitarist on tour

Eluveitie-Calling the Rain (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbXkn634rzI) Melodic Folk Death. Just plain awesome!

iwrestledabearonce-Tastes Like Kevin Bacon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrFTR9fucr8) Grindcore combined with everything from jazz, to pop, to bluegrass, to lounge music. This song, for example, has an interlude that sounds like something The Cranberries would have written. Seriuosly. How do you classify a band like this? :p This girl's voice is also amazing.

So there ya go. All metal, all good, all different.

[escobert]

you would probably hate the one metal band I listen to :p

[sharkythesharkdogg]

Slipknot? ICP? I hesitate to call them metal, but the suspense is killing me. lol

[escobert]

no, YouTube - Attila - Rage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9MYSzfjRtI&ob=av2el)

[sharkythesharkdogg]

It's definitely not my favorite form of metal, but that's just 'cause the lyrics are a little shallow. Nothing wrong with a song with a simple meaning though. Not everything has to be revolutionary. I like metal core so problem. I used to see Atilla on a semi regular basis. I lived in Newnan, GA. Go local boys.

You're turn Bert! Prepare to have your mind blown. I see your "Party Metalcore" and give you the same idea trance techno and autotune. Seriously.

Abandon All Ships-Megawhacko v2.0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZubj303pWA)

I swear, metal has something for everybody. As much as everyone talks about it being close minded, it combines more sounds and ideas than any other genre I've come across.

[escobert]

that was pretty decent. I don't really listen to metal but my best friend is a wicked metal head. But that's something I could listen to on my own free will :p

And yes Attilas lyrics are ridiculously shallow and simple but, I don't really care because it's mostly music I listen to while partying :p