Sequels, Prequels, and Franchises

[Wolf Kanno]

Well, we now have FFXIII-2 on the horizon and now a new FF Type series coming. Not to mention IV is getting a new remake with another minor sequel element added on. SE is in business when it comes to making franchises out of the series and even creating a few new ones while we're at it.

So my question is this, what are your thoughts on SE's new business model with FF and technically even KH? The idea we can take a title and build it into its own franchise. VII is no longer the numbered entry in the FF series as much as it is a franchise title that incorporates a myriad of titles and media outlets. Dissidia is an unofficial prequel to the original FF1 and Ivalice Alliance is a series of titles that spans thousands of years of history of one little place that might be created from the imagination of a little boy. XIII has become a marker for a new mythology spanning several unrelated titles and despite barely a year old from it's western release, FFXIII already has a sequel ready for the winter holdiay season.

Do you feel this has been great marketing, revisiting old titles, and creating new content that can expand into more future titles with your favorite characters or do you simply see it as milking the franchise?

If it is milking, is there ever a proper circumstance where a prequel/sequel/spin-off is justified?

If it's perfectly fine to expand an IP, do you feel it's necessary to retcon some of the original in order to create more elbow room to spread the creative wings?

How about the fact that some titles like Versus XIII and the future FFXV are being held back why teams spend more time expanding the rest of the series?

Just some stuff I've been pondering lately.

[Flying Arrow]

The only thing that bothers me more than sequelling is prequelling, which outright disgusts me. This of course isn't exclusive to Final Fantasy either.

[Rostum]

I love a company to expand an IP, and explore it in different ways. Just like the Ivalice games in the Final Fantasy series.

When an IP has been left for a decade or so, I have no problem with them retconning it a bit. I mean the original vision changes over time, and I see it first hand with my own work in short periods of time. But I think there really needs to be a long time difference in order to do that commercially.

I am guessing you are refering to the Final Fantasy VII Compilation? My view on that is they've tried to cram way too much in to the timeline of that world that it's just so messy. I wouldn't so much mind a retcon or an expansion on the universe otherwise, especially since it feels like the original game was incomplete or could have been told better.

Direct sequels and prequels can be done well, but generally are not. However, I'm generally of the opinion that I won't ignore the sequels or feel they don't exist like so many people love to do. I would prefer less sequels and spin-offs and more main titles in a series, especially when talking about Kingdom Hearts.

[Remon]

I luv sequels,prequels and franchises :love:
I just hate the FFX-2 kind of sequels :(. I want sequels when the characters don't change that much.

[Depression Moon]

The FF series as I feel was an attempt to cash in. The number and quality of some of those games speak for themselves on that department. Really Dissidia is a prequel to FFI? That doesn't make much sense to me. Also for the subject of sequels and spin offs for KH, I am bothered by them. They've been so numerous and over the amount of time I just want III already. If they had made some of those for consoles or produced interesting titles for PS3, I wouldn't mind as much.

I do feel that it is too early for a sequel to XIII when games that were announced alongside it back in 06 aren't close to being out, not to mention all the negativity the original was given.

[VeloZer0]

I am totally against Retcons. When a game developer goes to such lengths to build a world it is a travesty to come in and stomp all over it for whatever you want to come next.

A common justification for sequels/prequels is for the fleshing out of the already established world. Yet the writer of this new entry (whether it be the original or not) just changes things whenever they get in the way of the new story he is trying to tell? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of doing a homage to the original game? A sequel/prequel should only exist to help develop the original, if a compelling story for a game can't be written with the existing cannon, then don't make it! If your artistic vision is so grand that it eclipses that of the original title then maybe you should stop being a hack and make your own new great IP.

The only possible exception I give is to MMO developers. I appreciate their need to keep expanding on lore, and though it should be avoided at times they may be forced to make a small retcon to allow for more future content development. A console developer does not have the same obligation to expand the lore no matter what.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
(does HTML not work anymore? I can't put my my typical 'hr' in :( )

On the topic of sequels and prequells, I guess the question they should all pose is that after the game is there an appropriate story to be told. I say appropriate because not all stories are suitable to be told in a video game, let alone an RPG environment. Often times it feels like they have taken something that could be worth telling, started working on it, then realized the narrative wasn't something appropriate to a video game. After which they have to start cramming in a bunch of retcons to justify inclusion of typical JRPG elements of the game.

Crisis Core is an excellent example of this. The story of Zack is something that is completely worth telling. However, it doesn't translate well into game form. So they needed to create a villain, and they needed to create a whole bunch of extra 'dungeons'. Zacks end in FF7 was extremely anticlimactic and uninspiring. Not suitable for a game ending. So they had to add a whole bunch of extra adventures. In the end the story that was produced was (IMO) and insult to FF7s story.

In the end I don't think prequells or sequels suit the FF series in the least. The way the stories are written the events of the game are the biggest ordeals that their respective worlds have ever faced. Having a sequel after can either not hope to live up to the original, or poorly attempt to one up it cheapening them both.

Not to say I am against it as a rule, but it is extremely rare for an RPG to be worth making as a sequel or prequel.

[Depression Moon]

I forgot to touch upon sequels and prequels for the series. To me I welcome it if the game felt unfinished or good enough that I wanted one. Even though I don't care for seven much I didn't mind it as the ending was open ended and there was undeveloped background for some characters.

I didn't like Dirge of Cerberus or Advent Children though sooo....
I haven't played XIII so I have no opinion for that one. X umm, well...When I knew about X-2 I was still realitvely young and didn't have the same mindset as I do now. Looking back at it, I saw it as unnecessary, but not ??? or insulting. Story wise I was disappointed by X-2.

IV is one that confuses me. It didn't feel like it needed a sequel to me. I haven't played its sequel so I don't know about the quality of it to justify it, so no opinion on that.

[Roogle]

There was a time when the Final Fantasy series was known for its distinct lack of sequels or prequels. I remember when a short anime series based on Final Fantasy V was notable because it was one of the only instances that a Final Fantasy game was elaborated upon outside of the actual game itself. I think that people prefer those times than what we currently have right now. My personal opinion regarding sequels and prequels is that the game should be extremely similar in gameplay to its predecessor. For example, compare and contrast the similarities between Lunar: The Silver Star and Lunar: Eternal Blue or Final Fantasy IV and Final Fantasy IV: The After Years to Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy VII Dirge of Cerberus.

[Vermachtnis]

In this case it all depends on the cast. If I like the cast I'll want to see more of them. And like Roogle said, it's going to be a sequel they should have the similar battle/class/whatever system or at least stay in the same genre. Going from a turn based RPG to a third person shooter is a big leap.

And since they do something different with each new proper numbered entry, and at this point they could become there own series.

[Crop]

No, it's totally stupid.

My interest in Kingdom Hearts (which I really really enjoyed with 1 and 2) has been totally ruined with all of these spin offs and prequels that I just can't keep track of.

I don't own any handhelds damn it, let alone two of them!

[Depression Moon]

Now it's 3.

[Jessweeee♪]

Nothing wrong with milking a cow. That's what cows are for. Milking. You have wasted money if you don't milk the cow you have invested in. :confused:

[!]

Moo!

[/!]

[McLovin']

It's because Square sold out. They aren't the same people that we liked back from FF1 to FF10. They changed their whole approach to Final Fantasy after X. They should just stick to their old ways and make a great, amazing game utilizing all the graphics and artistic potential of the era (FFXIII Verus looks like it might do this actually! We'll see). Also as said earlier the prequel or sequel should be justified, damnit! Which is why I don't have that same awe for Kingdom Hearts as I did when it first came out. Too many crazy additions to the story that was originally just a cool Disney/FF story.

[Hot Shot]

It's because Square sold out. They aren't the same people that we liked back from FF1 to FF10. They changed their whole approach to Final Fantasy after X. They should just stick to their old ways and make a great, amazing game utilizing all the graphics and artistic potential of the era (FFXIII Verus looks like it might do this actually! We'll see). Also as said earlier the prequel or sequel should be justified, damnit! Which is why I don't have that same awe for Kingdom Hearts as I did when it first came out. Too many crazy additions to the story that was originally just a cool Disney/FF story.
How can a business sell out? That's their main goal, to make money. If they didn't 'sell out' then we'd think they are stupid. They want to maximise their profit by appealing to the mass market. I remember when FFVII came out (well a year or two after it came out, I was too young too appreciate it) only me and one other guy played FF in my class. Everybody thought it was boring and such. But since X (or maybe XII) I've noticed a lot of people actually saying they are fans of FF (despite the fact that they only play the latest titles and never really got a true FF experience.

But with regards to sequels/prequels, I don't have a problem with them as long as they are good. I disagree with some people who have said that the characters shouldn't change (isn't an RPG about character growth/development) or the battle system should be the same (change can be good, we can get a different experience from the game). But I do think SE make too many prequels/sequels imo and a lot of them are sub-par (I don't know why so many people like Crisis Core), but regardless of what I think the fans are still buying the games and liking them. And that's the important thing at the end of the day. As long as the gamer enjoys it and SE makes some money everybody wins. And guess what, if we don't like any of these sequels/prequels, we don't have to buy or play them. It's that simple.

[Jessweeee♪]

If there's one big moment where you could say they "sold out" it'd be FFII. Final Fantasy was to be their last game after all! They only made a second because the first got them monies. And boy am I glad they did. Those first few in the series weren't really my thing.

(Also, Crisis Core is pretty awesome if you both like FFVII and can ignore the existence of Genesis. He is by far my least favorite villain in the series, maybe even ever.)

[Roogle]

And like Roogle said, it's going to be a sequel they should have the similar battle/class/whatever system or at least stay in the same genre. Going from a turn based RPG to a third person shooter is a big leap.

And since they do something different with each new proper numbered entry, and at this point they could become there own series.

Yes, I feel like Square Enix tries to make its sequels stand out from their predecessors with only a few exceptions. My personal tastes for a sequel revolve around the close correlation between a sequel and its predecessor. Like I said before, one of my favorite pairs of games is Lunar: The Silver Star and Lunar: Eternal Blue because both games keep a consistent feel and gameplay mechanics.

If we look at some of the more recent Square Enix sequels like Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy VII Dirge of Cerberus, then we see a striking difference that turns fans of the original game away. If we look at specific instances like Final Fantasy IV and Final Fantasy IV: The After Years, then we see most people pleased with the gameplay at the very least as it is essentially the same game at its core.

My recommendation to game developers is that they try not to stray too far with the original material and appeal to the fans of the original game. For example, I wonder if a sequel in the Compilation of Final Fantasy VII would have been better received if it took was very similar to Final Fantasy VII in gameplay? What if the story was about a new cast of characters, with some returning characters like Marlene and Denzel, in a world Twenty Minutes Into The Future (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TwentyMinutesIntoTheFuture)? No, you might not be happy with the story, but you would at least be happy with the returning gameplay and updated graphics of a game that you loved at the very least.

Final Fantasy XIII has its share of fans, too. I hope it sticks closely to the original with some minor changes to address player complaints rather than try to reinvent the wheel while only recycling existing graphics and story elements.

[Wolf Kanno]

A little devil's advocate or trolling (you choose)

What about the prospect that XIII-2 is coming out less than two years after the first one and the fact the game had several unanswered questions and constantly teased about extra content within the actual game through the analects. Does this not give the impression SE had the sequel planned from the beginning and purposely held back content to make this game rather than actually tell a complete story. What about other series that do so?

[VeloZer0]

I would way rather them make a sequel to a game they intended to add on to then have sequels to self contained games.

Though I don't appreciate leaving a game inadequately developed to leave room for the sequel (for the record I attribute FF13's lack of extrapolation to ineptitude, not holding out), if it is written properly I don't see why we can't have planned sequels.

In the last decade FF titles (an admittedly small sample) seem to have gone away from the 'big world' concept they used to have. In the old titles before you go and fight the last boss you have basically mastered every area of the world, and are the most bad ass thing on the planet sans the last boss. Having the cast of FF4-9 face off against a new foe is a stupid concept, as you have been everywhere and know there isn't a hidden evil empire over the horizon, and even if there was you are strong enough to handle it. (I absolutely DESPISE having a sequel where your lv99 own everything party starts again at lv1.)

In a game like FF12 or 13 there is still a ton of unexplored world. It actualy makes sense that there could be threats out there greater than the party has experienced before. Especially in the case of FF13 where they aren't l'Cie any more. So long as they give past party members the dignity and relative strength they deserve it could work quite well.

[Bolivar]

If I'm not mistaken none of this was really going on before Square "merged" with Enix. I feel like ever since they dug themselves into a hole with "The Spirits Within," they've been trying to climb out of that by exploiting all of the existing IP at that time. Which is probably why they didn't have a Final Fantasy ready by the end of the first year of the PS3's cycle. I was defending them for a long time up until recently because I actually enjoyed the hell out of the remakes and spinoffs I was playing, but FFXIII changed all that. You can make quaint games all you like, but when that affects the main franchise, I got a problem. I know it's childish to complain that a pretty good game wasn't an amazing game, but something needs to change. Their best minds shouldn't be mining the games that already came out for everything they can.

[Loony BoB]

If it's a good game and they don't ruin the original game, then I don't mind at all. This of course comes down almost entirely to opinion, so I can't really criticise any company for doing such a thing.

EDIT:
If I'm not mistaken none of this was really going on before Square "merged" with Enix. I feel like ever since they dug themselves into a hole with "The Spirits Within," they've been trying to climb out of that by exploiting all of the existing IP at that time. Which is probably why they didn't have a Final Fantasy ready by the end of the first year of the PS3's cycle. I was defending them for a long time up until recently because I actually enjoyed the hell out of the remakes and spinoffs I was playing, but FFXIII changed all that. You can make quaint games all you like, but when that affects the main franchise, I got a problem. I know it's childish to complain that a pretty good game wasn't an amazing game, but something needs to change. Their best minds shouldn't be mining the games that already came out for everything they can.
Why FFXIII? VII and X already did it. Just curious as to what you find so different about this particular number.

[Slothy]

Why FFXIII? VII and X already did it. Just curious as to what you find so different about this particular number.

I think you misunderstand what Bolivar meant. He's saying that while they were dumping resources into multiple sequels and spinoffs they were spending five years making what many would describe as a lackluster main series entry at best. I think as he sees it the sequels and spinoffs may have taken resources away from XIII. He's not saying he has a problem with XIII getting sequels, unless I'm completely misunderstanding him, which is possible since I've been awake for 10 minutes.

I'm not convinced myself. I'll still chalk up that train wreck to a largely directionless and poorly run development team to be honest. Maybe things would have been better if they trimmed the fat on many of their dev teams and maybe consolidated some of them so they have fewer teams made up of their best talent.

As to the topic itself, I don't have a problem with sequels really, though I feel most don't warrant it for all of the same reasons Velo mentioned. I also think that Square needs to take a step back and find out where their real problems lie right now. They're not struggling at the moment because they aren't milking their big franchises enough. They're struggling because somewhere along the way they either forgot how to make great games, or beat the drive to do it out of their really talented people. I find it sad that EA has had a better track record in supporting developers with a new idea or vision for a new IP over the last five years than other big companies like Square. My how things change.

[Depression Moon]

Here's something for you all to read.

Final Fantasy: Officially Burnt Out- Destructoid (http://www.destructoid.com/final-fantasy-officially-burnt-out-192700.phtml)

[Loony BoB]

I agree that the naming doesn't make sense, but as for how they used to be released once every few years, on the contrary, they used to be released more frequently.

[ShinGundam]

If I'm not mistaken none of this was really going on before Square "merged" with Enix. I feel like ever since they dug themselves into a hole with "The Spirits Within," they've been trying to climb out of that by exploiting all of the existing IP at that time. Which is probably why they didn't have a Final Fantasy ready by the end of the first year of the PS3's cycle. I was defending them for a long time up until recently because I actually enjoyed the hell out of the remakes and spinoffs I was playing, but FFXIII changed all that. You can make quaint games all you like, but when that affects the main franchise, I got a problem. I know it's childish to complain that a pretty good game wasn't an amazing game, but something needs to change. Their best minds shouldn't be mining the games that already came out for everything they can.
No, there was FF Adventure, Mystic Quest, Tactics, Chocobo dungeon , Crystal Chronicles, FFX-2 (In development) before merger. Now you have more platforms than before, bigger market so it is not unreasonable for FF to expand their properties.


Here's something for you all to read.

Apparently, you can't differentiate between obvious troll and substantial opinionated articles that is far from often deal with childhood memories.
The fanbase for FF is huge and varied, it is extremely shortsighted and narrowminded to take what he feel about FF personally and project it on
everyone else. That would be silly.

[cloud_doll]

Here's something for you all to read.

Final Fantasy: Officially Burnt Out- Destructoid (http://www.destructoid.com/final-fantasy-officially-burnt-out-192700.phtml)

Well. I actually agree with this article. It's all opinion of course, but he has a point...Sure, the fanbase is huge, and that's exactly why Squenix keeps making sequels and prequels and spin-offs. Honestly I'm sick of it all and I stopped playing FF at X, well in the middle of X. Before that the games were all great. But I guess, like mentioned, when you have a cow you gotta milk it for all it's worth.

[ShinGundam]

Here's something for you all to read.

Final Fantasy: Officially Burnt Out- Destructoid (http://www.destructoid.com/final-fantasy-officially-burnt-out-192700.phtml)

Well. I actually agree with this article. It's all opinion of course, but he has a point...Sure, the fanbase is huge, and that's exactly why Squenix keeps making sequels and prequels and spin-offs. Honestly I'm sick of it all and I stopped playing FF at X, well in the middle of X. Before that the games were all great. But I guess, like mentioned, when you have a cow you gotta milk it for all it's worth.
I respect your opinion of FF, but it is obvious that people who have same opinion like you aren't actually interested in these games anymore because they want games that they found them to be pioneering games of this era. SQEX pioneered on high expectation. They no longer to release product that meets that expectation.

For instance take a look at Vivi22 comment on the subject, he seemed to think there was a mystique quality in Squaresoft games that is magically disappeared from FF series and he seemed to ask this question "Why can't Japanese studios do this and that like western studios?".

In other words : Japanese gaming is dead: chapter 334.

You will find the similar articles for JRPGs, Japanese survival horror, Square, Zelda, MGS, RE, Ridge Racer, Gran truismo, etc. all of these articles have common bottom line which is "why these games aren't that magical and gifts from heaven like they used to".

[Skyblade]

If there's one big moment where you could say they "sold out" it'd be FFII. Final Fantasy was to be their last game after all! They only made a second because the first got them monies. And boy am I glad they did. Those first few in the series weren't really my thing.

(Also, Crisis Core is pretty awesome if you both like FFVII and can ignore the existence of Genesis. He is by far my least favorite villain in the series, maybe even ever.)

Crisis Core is fine as long as you can ignore every character it retconned in. Every character who was actually part of the original story was brilliant and excellent. Every single character it tried to add just wound up painful. And Genesis was the worst.

Oh, and JRPGs are only going away because their developers are idiots who aren't paying attention. There are still plenty of awesome JRPGs being churned out and getting incredibly positive reviews. The games are doing brilliantly, and the demand is there, the developers just don't seem to notice how well they are doing. Probably because they are all for handheld systems. Now, if you'll excuse me, my DS calls.

[Wolf Kanno]

Here's something for you all to read.
Apparently, you can't differentiate between obvious troll and substantial opinionated articles that is far from often deal with childhood memories.
The fanbase for FF is huge and varied, it is extremely shortsighted and narrowminded to take what he feel about FF personally and project it on
everyone else. That would be silly.

While I would agree he does not speak for everyone, the negativity around the franchise is not as minor either. Examples:
Can SquareEnix Final Fantasy Rise Again? | The Bitbag (http://www.thebitbag.com/2011/02/04/can-squareenix-final-fantasy-rise-again/)

Has the Fantasy finally run out of gas? - PS2, PS3, Xbox 360, PC, PSone, SNES, NES opinion at Thunderbolt Games (http://thunderboltgames.com/opinion/article/has-the-fantasy-finally-run-out-of-gas-opinion-for-ps2-ps3-xbox-pc-psone-snes-nes.html)

Can Final Fantasy Still Save Square Enix? (http://kotaku.com/5750860/can-final-fantasy-still-save-square-enix)

All released within days of each other I might add. Maybe it's just SE's week to be the punching bag. Still, even on other gaming forums, I'm not seeing the old devotions to the series. So while it is very unlikely that people feel FF is scratching the bottom of the barrel, I do feel their is a general consensus that FF has been in decline for awhile (how long varies of course).

As for the short development time between games, it was about three years for most of the titles. Only VIII-X were released consecutively and personally I don't feel this strategy really worked for all the games benefits. VIII and X always felt incomplete and IX was completely overshadowed by the "sequel to VII" and "the first FF on the next generation platform" so I wouldn't mind going back to the 3 year waiting period. If SE could finally shelve out a game that deserved 5+ year development cycle (fingers cross on Versus XIII), I'm sure most people wouldn't mind the wait.

[Tokimadoushi]

They're making ANOTHER remake of IV??! :eep:
Seriously, I've had enough of that lot. Why don't they remake VI? It was just as epic as IV, if not more, and is easily as popular as the big names in the series like VII and X. Maybe it's just because I hated the DS remake of 4 (the horrific voice acting did nothing for me). Maybe it's because I've never enjoyed a single sequel or spin-off to any of the main games in the series. And maybe that's because...I'm a puppet? :confused:
I personally wish Squeenix would stop with the sequels, prequels, spin-offs, etc etc etc. When I heard XIII-2 was coming out, I just hung my head.
If they really want to continue on this path, why don't they stop re-re-re-hashing games they've already remade/ported more than twice (I, II, IV being the main culprits) and focus on re-making beloved yet ignored games like VI or IX?
At this rate I'm ready to pack it away.

[Loony BoB]

There are still plenty of awesome JRPGs being churned out and getting incredibly positive reviews. The games are doing brilliantly, and the demand is there, the developers just don't seem to notice how well they are doing. Probably because they are all for handheld systems. Now, if you'll excuse me, my DS calls.
Personally I find it a bit unfair to compare a DS JRPG to a 360/PS3 JRPG.


I wouldn't mind going back to the 3 year waiting period.
Do you mean three years between the start of work and end of work, or three years between releases of numbered Final Fantasy games? Because the earlier FF's actually more often than not had less time spent on them. Only VII, XII and XIII were released three years after an earlier FF. And XIII had four years of development, yet it's the one that has brought about such articles as are being linked to in this thread.

[Hot Shot]

That writer of that article is too sceptic and negative of SE and he writes as if everybody shares his views. I mean, yes, the quality has dropped in their games in recent years and they do milk FF VII for all it's worth, but I think we should be hopeful of XIII's sequels. Personally I think Versus XIII is gonna be one oft their best games in a long time.

[Tokimadoushi]

That's if Versus even sees the light of day - at this rate they'll probably integrate it in FFXIII-3.
It's hard not to be skeptical of Square when they've gone from releasing one awesome title every few years to releasing 3-4 sub-standard titles every year.

[Fynn]

This article reminds me of all the "Fifth generation Pokemon are UGLY!" stuff. Seriously, I think most of that is just the Nostalgia Filter having its way. I haven't played XIII yet, but XII blew me away with its sheer mastery, so my personal experience gives me no evidence that SE is in decline :) Also, the KH "spin-offs" (as in, handheld titles) are, IMO, great, maybe even better than the "main" games. And the story makes perfect sense to me :|

On topic, franchises are OK as long as they're implemented right. Heck, I can even forgive X-2's horrible storyline thanks to the awesome gameplay and the game not taking itself too seriously.

[Remon]

This article reminds me of all the "Fifth generation Pokemon are UGLY!" stuff.

But they really are ugly :(

[Fynn]

This article reminds me of all the "Fifth generation Pokemon are UGLY!" stuff.

But they really are ugly :(

Your mileage may vary on that one, really. I find most of them endearing ;) I was never really fond of the G1 Pokemon, actually.

[Depression Moon]

Here's something for you all to read.

Apparently, you can't differentiate between obvious troll and substantial opinionated articles that is far from often deal with childhood memories.
The fanbase for FF is huge and varied, it is extremely shortsighted and narrowminded to take what he feel about FF personally and project it on
everyone else. That would be silly.

Eh, what?

[Jessweeee♪]

This article reminds me of all the "Fifth generation Pokemon are UGLY!" stuff.

But they really are ugly :(

KONKELDOOOORRRRR