Sorceress Selphie? (possible spoilers)

[Tokimadoushi]

Okay, the game makes it pretty clear that the difference between a sorceress and a regular woman is that a sorceress need not junction a GF nor draw magic to use magic. This point is emphasized when Rinoa develops the Angel Wing limit break after becoming a sorceress. So why the hell can Selphie use random, undrawn magic even without a GF equipped with her limit break, Slots? Is there something she's been hiding from the party? Perhaps, Selphie=Ultimecia?:p

[Rostum]

Just what this forum needs, another one...

As for your 'theory' I wouldn't think too much about it. The developers didn't.

[MJN SEIFER]

Okay, the game makes it pretty clear that the difference between a sorceress and a regular woman is that a sorceress need not junction a GF nor draw magic to use magic. This point is emphasized when Rinoa develops the Angel Wing limit break after becoming a sorceress. So why the hell can Selphie use random, undrawn magic even without a GF equipped with her limit break, Slots? Is there something she's been hiding from the party? Perhaps, Selphie=Ultimecia?:p

Limit Breaks are just natural abbilities used by the characters. There is no link between them and sorcery. Also, battle based skills very rarley relate to storyline aside from a few exceptions, such as Terra's Morph in FFVI, Garnet suddenly getting a lot weaker for a short time in FFIX, and as you mentioned Angel Wing.

Also no one is Ultimecia, the only person I can think of her being is now dissproved (not an FFVIII charcter) bottom line - Ultimecia is Ultimecia.

[Mirage]

holy crap, quistis can use magic too, i bet she's actually edea

[Roogle]

In the world of Final Fantasy VIII, ordinary humans can possess special powers and abilities akin to those of the sorceress. Ellone, for example, has her unique ability, Connect, that allows Squall and his party to link to Laguna and his party.

[Jessweeee♪]

It's non-canon of course, but my personal theory is that sorceresses can have babies and those babies can have sorceress powers and that's why sorceresses usually don't have babies. Selphie is a descendant!

[Wolf Kanno]

Not to mention that if you look at it, magic is not exclusive to Sorceress' as much as it's the scale of the power. Galbadian soldiers can use limited magic, the whole process of drawing spells comes from removing magic potential from the world around you.

I would argue that magic is not exclusive to the Sorceress though it's obvious that the Sorceress power is on a much greater scale, and she has access to abilities that are not possible through Junction, such as physical manifestations of immaterial substance and making inanimate objects into living beings.

I'm more curious about Ellone's plot device powers.

[Clo]

Yeah, seriously, what was Ellone's deal?

[MJN SEIFER]

I always figured that Ellone was either a sorceress, or was in someway decended from them. On a side note, the R=E makes more sense than the R=U - at least the "evidence" for R=E isn't flimsy like R=U, even if it turns out to be false.

[Depression Moon]

Ellone's a mutant.

[Roogle]

The Final Fantasy Wiki has a great article about Ellone and her powers (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Ellone#Powers).

[Laddy]

Oh my god! You're so right! The annoying-as-hell woman-child kawaii nightmare with little significance to the plot that is Selphie is CLEARLY able to wield powers that can part oceans and level continents! This is truly a great discovery! What's nest? Vivi being a genome? Rosa being Cecil's third form? Gogo is actually Kefka in disguise?

[MJN SEIFER]

Selphie does have a baring on the plot, she's not one of the main two, but she is insturmental in the Missile Section, and is the reason the team go to Trabia.

[Roogle]

Nearly all characters in Final Fantasy VIII act as secondary characters in the narrative due to the commanding presence of Squall, Rinoa, and Ultimecia in the story.

Ellone, too, acts as more of a plot device than a character, unfortunately.

[MJN SEIFER]

Nearly all characters in Final Fantasy VIII act as secondary characters in the narrative due to the commanding presence of Squall, Rinoa, and Ultimecia in the story.

Ellone, too, acts as more of a plot device than a character, unfortunately.

Not really. I get that Squall (Main Character) and Rinoa (Interest) are featured the most because it is a love story so obviously those two types of characters are the most important. Ultimecia is a Villain, so obviously she's important to the plot too, seeing as the Villain is "the main obstacle for the Main Character to overcome" - Seifer (who you haven't mentioned) is probably a step or two below Ultimecia in terms of important character types, because, although he's not a villain hearsay, he is an enemy of the Main Character.

This game is basically FFVII done in a different angle. In VII every character, including the two extras had their own storyline, and background, and all of which can be resolved (and in many cases, the game actually tells you to resolve it - take Barret for example; even though he remains your character his storyline ends when Coral is saved, because that's his personal storyline closed.) In FFVIII the other characters have their pasts, and their history, but unlike VII the game doesn't force you to do it, so you won't always notice it (you can learn things about characters by finding out what places know them, and talking to people - for instance, most people in Balamb have met Zell, and most people in Trabia know Seplphie, so you get pieces of their background from them.) It's not a bad way to develop characters, it's just an alternative.

I suppose Ellone could be seen as a plot device, but she is an important one, she helps us understand Squall better, even though I pretty much got him anyway, because I was going through a Squall-ish phase at the time (even though what was happening to me wasn't as bad as what was happening to Squall, I had lost many friends but Squall had of course lost his family as well. However, I understood Squall's "If everyone just leaves you, why should I even care" type attitude because I felt the same way, but at the same time the game helped me realize how much I actually had, like I said my problems paled into comparison with his.) I do think Ellone makes it as an actual character though, because I get her as an actual person. Most of the characters backgrounds are just optional, you look for them if you want to.
But, hey! If that's the price I have to pay to see my two favorite FF characters (Squall and Rinoa) get center spotlight, then I have to live with it :cool:.

[Roogle]

Yes, the characters have intriguing back stories and plots that are not addressed in the game because they are not considered central to the narrative. Zell, for example, has a type of side story with a girl in the library that you can completely miss out on because it has no bearing on the plot. I would prefer it if all characters' stories were given the same treatment as Squall and Rinoa. If you read the motivations and background of Ellone, then you should consider her a character, but the game itself does not lend her enough time to be fleshed out nearly as well as any of the other important characters.

[Wolf Kanno]

Ellone pretty much is a non-entity as an adult. She's got spunk as a kid but as a teenager she really has no real screen time to show off her personality, she's mostly just explaining the game's plot.

Funny enough, when VIII was first being introduced, they made a bigger deal about why Zell joined Garden to become SeeD and treated it like it was going to be a major part of his story. It became one of those tidbits in the promo years that most people forgot. The game briefly glosses over it. Which is a shame cause it would have made him more interesting beyond being Squall's foil in the party.

[Roogle]

Yes, the characters of Final Fantasy VIII really have good character histories from what we are able to read in supplemental materials. The problem is that there is little evidence of that during the course of the game.

I am a fan of games that explore multiple points of view. I would have loved to view scenarios from the point of view of Ellone and see how she tried to change and defy fate with the use of her power and how she slowly learns to accept what has happened rather than hear it from her after the fact in a brief scene.

[Depression Moon]

Zell's father was a boxer and how did Selphie end up in Trabia garden? Did Zell confront his mother about not telling him that he was adopted. How did Quistis end up at Balamb Garden and Irvine at Galbadia?

[Crop]

Yes, the characters have intriguing back stories and plots that are not addressed in the game because they are not considered central to the narrative. Zell, for example, has a type of side story with a girl in the library that you can completely miss out on because it has no bearing on the plot.

I agree. I think FFVII did it quite well, they explained the back stories and actions of characters as you progressed through the game, especially on Disk one where you get Barret in Corel, Nanaki in Cosmo Canyon and Cid in Rocket Town to name a few. This was done at the same time as they progressed the main story.

It would have been nice if they did that for VIII.

[Serapy]

We have talked about this before ^^;

Yes, Selphie had a higher potential/chance to be a sorceress than any other woman (except Matron, Rinoa, Ultimecia and Adel) if we entirely focus on the hints.

However, this has never been properly explained/disproved/proved in the game, so we may never know for sure. This assumption is based on the basis that Selphie and Rinoa were originally the same person or Selphie being non-existent during the inital development stage of VIII. So, basically, the team added Selphie AFTER Rinoa and made Rinoa as a sorceress instead.

There are other hints that Rinoa and Selphie were the same person, and I'll show you:

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7128/trial.gifhttp://img4.imageshack.us/img4/2444/finalmsw.gif
Look at her shadows. ^^

~ The very first demo version of VIII. In it, Rinoa was displayed instead of Selphie. This could suggest that either Selphie weren't added to the game before Rinoa or they changed the writing story.

~ Look at Selphie's final limit break very carefully. I strongly believe that that limit break was meant to be Rinoa's. So, what happened? The devs probably were lazy, so they let Selphie have the 'The End' limit break. Reason? Maybe they were hurrying? This could also suggest that the whole concept of Selphie was added after Rinoa during the development.

~ At Balamb Garden when Squall was bumped by Selphie, could that have been Rinoa? Isn`t it ironic that Selphie asked Squall for a tour of the Garden in the beginning and then later in the game, Rinoa asked him the same question?

~ Selphie grew up with the others at the orphanage, could that have been Rinoa? Because there were too many events involving that orphanage, so the development team didn't have any time, so they replaced Rinoa with Selphie in these events and changed her dialogues abit.

~ There`s also this computer incident at Trabia Garden, where Selphie became involved and stopped Squall from accessing her files. Basically, there`s something Selphie doesn`t want him know about.
For some reason, this sounds quite irrelevant because the incident grants you the ability to read about Laguna`s adventures on the Balamb School Network at your study panel. Irrelevant how? Selphie (who caused drama in the incident = prerequisite) and disclosures of Laguna`s adventures as a reward don`t seem to be connected with each other. It`s either that or a diary about her unusual feelings in relevance to a being of a sorceress. If it`s the latter, then Rinoa obviously didn`t want Squall to be worried when he read her files, so she simply stopped him from accessing her files. Squall fully acknowledged this after this incident.

Ok, so ... that was Rinoa, not Selphie. Although, Rinoa and Laguna are obviously not connected with each other, but there`s a chance that Squall marries Rinoa in the future. So in this case, Rinoa will be in the same family as Laguna. Makes even more sense.

If you replace Rinoa with Selphie in that incident, it makes more sense.

And some other hints.

This S=R theory also leads to another theory of Rinoa being a SeeD. Another hint: Ultimecia saying SeeD six times (there were only six characters in the room, including Rinoa!).

[Roogle]

The storyline and scripting for Final Fantasy VIII was finished by the time the demo was released to consumers and stores. In the development process, the storyline and scenario development are typically finished before the actual development of the programming and engine. This is why there is usually content that you can find on the disc that was never used during the game. I have no doubt that Selphie was already a character with a storyline by the release of the demo and that Rinoa was used in her place for marketing purposes and for the sake of difference between the demo and the final product.

[Rostum]

Look at her shadows. ^^


When you render out, whether it be for a still image or a full motion picture, you do it in what we call render passes and then composite all those layers together in something like Final Cut or After Effects. Without going in to too much detail, one of the passes you do is a shadow pass.

Chances are they re-used the exact same shadow pass from when they rendered it with Rinoa's model, instead of rendering out a completely new shadow pass for Selphie. Most likely to save time, since it's such a short second scene that only the obsessive would even notice it.

And as Roogle said, Rinoa would have been in the demo for marketing purposes. Also, chances are they had not finished either modelling/texturing/rigging/animating Selphie at that stage.

[MJN SEIFER]

At least YOU people can see that Serapy didn't just pull this out of thin air (not that he does with his other theories - even the ones I dissagree with).

[Serapy]

...

No, they just forgot to change the shadow. It cannot be there just to save time. Proof: they have actually adjusted the brightness/contrast of some areas in the final version. These changes made Squall look alot brighter, subtly hinting that he was visioned as Zell in the spider's eyes.

My argument is that the shadow of Selphie is more important, worth taking action against, or less errorful than changing the brightness/contrast of some areas. Square would change her shadow and not change the brightness/contrast... and here we go, our effort is justified. But that's not the point anyways because changing the shadow of a character is actually almost effortless.

Oh yeah, the actual character image of Rinoa does exist in the final demo too. You can see her standing inside the ship when Squall is running away from the spider. Oh, don't tell me Square did that just to save time. That's plain silly.



obsessive would even notice it.

And as Roogle said, Rinoa would have been in the demo for marketing purposes. Also, chances are they had not finished either modelling/texturing/rigging/animating Selphie at that stage.[/QUOTE]


And as Roogle said, Rinoa would have been in the demo for marketing purposes. Also, chances are they had not finished either modelling/texturing/rigging/animating Selphie at that stage.

Nah, I doubt it. With Rinoa being in the very inital demo, it makes no difference to the audience. At the time of the inital demo, not many people know about Rinoa or Selphie. So how would that catch the audience some interest if they don't know much about Rinoa? Plus she and Selphie look hot. And PLUS square actually changed her to Selphie in the newer demo versions.


So if they changed her to Selphie in the newer demo versions, that would destroy the "marketing" purpose for putting Rinoa in the first place. Simply put, they had changed her to Selphie because there was a change in the plot. I had even pointed out the hints about this in my previous post (her limit break, saying identical lines, the garden gestures, etc.)