Relate to this guy here.

[Skyblade]

Maybe this should go in the Lounge, since it does apply to more than just games, but it was gaming this thought started, so into the Gaming forum it goes.

Anyway, I've been playing Persona 3 recently, when I got to thinking about the thread on whiny vs edgy characters. It was argued that western gamers didn't really get that Japanese character type that led us to characters like Vaan, preferring the more masculine and heroic characters like Basch.

Persona 3 is a game which has clear examples of both character types, yet I love every one of the characters, even the tiny little kids and the characters who never stop whining the whole game. And I know I'm not alone in this, as most of my friends who have played it agree.

So why do we all hate Vaan so much?


The answer, at least for me, is that Vaan shouldn't have been in the game. He wasn't written into the game, and didn't belong. He was an example of a character who existed for one reason: To be a character we are supposed to relate to. And this is something I hate.

It's not limited to Vaan, nor to games. We've all seen these characters, and most of us loathe them intensely. Usually they take the form of token kids, like Vaan, or Jubilee from the X-Men cartoons (for fans of either of these characters, I apologize. I found them annoying and unnecessary, but you are certainly welcome to your own opinions). They are put in haphazardly, are poorly developed, and are completely unnecessary.

People cannot empathize with a character who has no connection to the story or other characters. And furthermore, it is perfectly possible to connect to characters that you have little relation to at all. Heck, most of life is about empathizing with people who we are very different from. What makes a character relatable is how well they're written. How well their psyche and problems translate to the gamer and make them feel for that character's situation. Sticking a character with a superficial similarity, telling the gamer to relate to them, and then offering no development whatsoever is not the way to get a gamer to like a character. You have to show us why we should care. Flesh them out, make them real people. Then we will care about their issues, whether they are supermen or hopeless wimps. And, when you do that, we'll care about them, and their friends, and their world. It draws the gamer in, and makes the game so much better.

This is what Persona 3 did brilliantly. It didn't give you one nonentity and ask you to relate to him. It gave you dozens of excellently written characters and asked you to relate to them all.


So, discuss, and feel free to list other characters of this type who have really gotten on your nerves.

[Vyk]

I think this is why I started shying away from JRPGs, as they were the slowest to evolve away from mute characters meant to be the avatar of the player, and since all players are different, they rarely got a voice to speak their (or our) minds. I think that's what drew me to western RPGs around the turn of the millennium, with the Baldur's Gate games, where I actually got to tell my character to say certain things. And other characters had fully fleshed out personalities that would react differently to my statements and actions. And it even introduced me to the concept of having consequences for actions

And you're right, I've always found it hard to relate to token characters (though now that you mention it, I did kinda like Jubilee). It really depends on the quality of the writing though. Sometimes a token character can work, but only when they're close to being as fleshed out as everyone else. Its really not a good idea to shoe-horn anyone into a work of fiction. It detracts from the over-all story you're trying to tell. Hoping to cash in on a few undecided gamers or movie-goers is a pretty decent gamble when that one cash-in character could ruin the whole flow and feel of the narrative. Not worth making the bet, usually

Edit: Also, I really wish I could get into Persona the way other people do.. :( I just tried P3 Portable a couple months ago, but once the story stopped moving and I was just set free into the world (only a couple hours in), it lost all momentum, and thus my interest. Getting tasked with going to school and getting a job (which I had to keep track of which jobs I could do on what days) and other after-school activities. The micromanaging thing kinda just killed it for me. Plus they just threw all that at you at once. I might read-up someday on how I'm supposed to approach the game rather than floundering around wasting time, I might give it another try in the future

[Roogle]

My first thought is that I disagree with comparing Jubilee and Vaan:

Jubilee had an important role in the story of the X-Men Animated Series, and she had established relationships with a majority of the cast and interacted with them on a regular basis.

Vaan was simply tacked on and had very little interaction with the rest of the cast and had very little relevance in the storyline, too.

As for Persona 3, I never finished the game, either, because of the reasons that you mentioned. I dislike the social aspect of the game, and I wish there was a way to play through it in a more linear fashion. The scenarios that occurred every couple of months which involved confronting a boss had my attention much more than the tedium of daily life in that game. I found it depressing to watch the calendar go from day to day.

[Vyk]

I think that's why I actually like Jubilee. She was just used to give us perspective to introduce the whole thing. Once that was done and she was an established character they didn't run with that idea anymore. Everyone got a little time in the spotlight, and she was worked into the plots and stories. She wasn't just tacked on. She was just used as a vessel for us to see through early on. But after the first couple of episodes, she was just like everyone else

[Jessweeee♪]

But Vaan doesn't even whine. There was one scene where he was like, OMG BASCH YOU KILLED MY BRO I HATE YOOOU, but then he was like, "it's cool, you're a good dude" and that was that as far as whining goes.

But anyway, I don't really mind it, as long as I don't feel like the character is condescending towards me in any other way. Like in a Planeteer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNp6-Q1NH9M) kind of way.

[Wolf Kanno]

The point of the day to day lives was to establish a connection with the world, which builds into the ending when you begin to see the world decay in the last few months. The social links allow the player to experience the characters world and make you understand where they are coming from when bad things happen to it. Instead of just wanting to save the world, by the end of P3/4 you have names attached to things you wish to protect. They are titles with an ascended supporting cast whose job is to make you feel like you are part of the world and actually care about them. It pays off in the last sections of the games. Especially with the nameless NPCs cause each of them also have their own story and you get a chance to watch those tales come to their own end. In truth, no one is really insignificant in their worlds, no one is simply there just to tell you the info you need to get to the next story segment. They are, for better or for worse like, real people.

The social links themselves are usually fun and interesting and many end on more surprising notes than one would expect.

It also gets utilized in ways that create more emotional depth like the fact that social link through party members are sometime inaccessible due to emotional trauma from the story. It also creates a different type of hero. Instead of playing an international group of soldiers, misfits, super natural princesses, and young village children whose parent let's them leave their comfy quiet village to go save the world, P3/4 creates a scenario of ordinary people doing extraordinary things. You can't just go off and forsake your old life to save the world, you have things like home, friends, and school to also worry about, and since you can't really convince people you're secretly saving the world, you really don't have an excuse to skip school and chores. The point is, you're not just the "legendary hero", you're also a student at a high school, a guy/girl hanging out at the mall, another human working a dead end job, but at least you also get to have insight into knowing you're monotonous daily lives are threatened by an eldritch abomination from beyond. It's anime Lovecraft. :love:

The main them of P3/P4 is choice. You're actions do in fact have significance. For every opportunity you chose not to study, you lose out on not only items but the ability interact with certain social links who don't want to socialize with a stupid person. For every night you level up in Tarturus and forsake hanging out with friends, you are limited in the the power of the Personas you get and it makes advancing through the dungeons and surviving the story missions that much harder. Spend too much time socializing and never got to Tarturus? Similar situation as before and you will be poorly equipped and leveled. The main thing to realize is that you are not meant to do everything that is possible in the first playthrough, it's why the game has a New Game+ feature so you can have an easier time in later playthroughs.

******************************************************
On topic, Yeah I'm calling you out on Jubilee from X-Men: The Animated series, and no this has nothing to do with the fact I had a crush on her despite knowing she's a fictional character... :shifty:

I'll agree with Vaan, though I do like him, and don't find him as annoying as some people do, I will agree his main flaw is that he is not written for the story. I still feel Vaan has some good writing attached to him but it really doesn't fit the theme and overall narrative of XII.

Main characters are tricky to create, personally I can't stand total blank slates, especially in games that offer me dialogue choices. which is why I do appreciate J-RPG mute characters cause most of the good ones actually do have a personality that is usually established by the rest of the cast and story, if not by funny things you can do in the game.

It's harder in some actual story games cause once the character gets too strong of an ego, you're now just watching a character on the screen. This is not a bad thing but now you have to follow normal writing conventions. I usually like when games are a bit daring like with Lady Ashe, Fei Fong Wong (Xenogears), and Marche (FFTA1) who are all characters that are not entirely sympathetic and likable. The player grows to understand and like them most of the time, but the writers are not afraid to show them as weak, selfish, morally ambiguous, or often questions the players own character by making them do something they normally wouldn't do if they had the chance. This is the beauty of the video game medium, the interaction with the game is enough to create a connection, and so even though a character in the game might do something you don't agree with, you sill feel like you are responsible on some level. Most people who disagree with Marche in FFTA1, usually don't finish the game. Yet, he is a likable and precocious character that makes it difficult to say you couldn't finish the story due to poor writing or whatnot.

Fei in Xenogears, many times just wants to get away from everything. He doesn't want to get involved and despite having great power, he is often times in the early parts of the game, shamed into helping other characters. His relationship with Elly is rather rocky for the first few times they meet up, and often times he comes off as a jerk to her and other character. Eventually, he grows into a devoted and caring messiah archetype that the other character rely on for his strength of character. Which makes it more brutal when he gets screwed over by the people he calls allies. Xenogears is a bit messed up...

These are the type of characters I wish I could see more of. Yet, like Skyblade mentioned, even simple characters can work. I actually really love IV's cast despite being one of the more simple entries in the series, and despite most of the cast basically being nothing but personality quirks, yet I would still take them over some modern gaming characters cause they are far more likable, and they don't spend hours of the game trying to convince me they're worth giving a damn about. They're just instant gratification and its the small bonds with their quirky attitudes that make them endearing and make me miss them when they leave my party.