A Dance with Dragons

[Ouch!]

Countdown. (http://georgerrmartin.com/if-update.html)

July 12, 2011. I am so absolutely thrilled.

I want to know who Cold Hands is!

[Shlup]

You are the second person today I've seen squee over this. What's the deal?

[NorthernChaosGod]

Holy smurf. HOLY smurf. HOLY. smurf.

:squee: I've been waiting forever for this. :D

[Ouch!]

You are the second person today I've seen squee over this. What's the deal?
A Song of Ice and Fire is easily one of the best fantasy series ever written, and we've been waiting six years for this announcement.

[Unbreakable Will]

I suppose this means I'll have to catch up on my reading for this series :D

[DK]

Oh my god, this better not be bull:bou::bou::bou::bou:.

Going to dig out the rest of the books and give the series a re-read, it's been years. Best series.

[NorthernChaosGod]

I love you guys, just sayin'.

[Freya]

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[Shlup]

You are the second person today I've seen squee over this. What's the deal?
A Song of Ice and Fire is easily one of the best fantasy series ever written, and we've been waiting six years for this announcement.

Well alright, I guess I have my next read then. *goes to find*

[NorthernChaosGod]

Yay! And it's dirty, you should love it. :bigsmile:

[sharkythesharkdogg]

Oooohh, this is like the one that always breaks your heart. I started reading this crap over 10 years ago! I'll believe it's out when I see the book on the shelf. :(:mad2:

If it is the real drop date........SSQQQUUUEEEEE!!!!!!!:jess::jess:


EDIT: Make that 15 years ago!! :( Dammit Martin! If you're sorry old ass dies on me before you finish this I will flip my :bou::bou::bou::bou:!!!

[Iceglow]

I cannot fucking wait, next time I'm over my mom's I'm bringing the rest of the series home to re-read :D

This is some of the best news all year.

Also side note, April 26th is it or April 16th that the first episode of a Game of Thrones is shown on HBO? I'm hoping they done it well HBO have been known for good stuff recently with their remake of Battlestar Galactica and The Wire and The Corner. From the vids I've seen on youtube it looks great and Martin is heavily involved in the project. Though I doubt they'll do everything in the books such as Jaime's and Cersei's incestrous sex scenes.

[Ouch!]

99% certain that the date is legit. This is the first time that his publisher has announced an official date for ADWD; all the others have been dealers speculating and putting in hopeful dates just to have something in their databases.

It's April 17, Steve-o.

[G13]

Though I doubt they'll do everything in the books such as Jaime's and Cersei's incestrous sex scenes.

It's HBO. I doubt they won't do it.

[Iceglow]

Though I doubt they'll do everything in the books such as Jaime's and Cersei's incestrous sex scenes.

It's HBO. I doubt they won't do it.

If they do it then thats awesome because it was such an important part of their relationship and Bran Stark's life story.

[sharkythesharkdogg]

^^^ Because of this I'd almost say they'd HAVE to. If they tried to get Bran to the same point by other means it wouldn't tie in as well. Plus it'll help people who haven't read the books hate Joffery like they should.

FUCK I hate Joffery!

[NorthernChaosGod]

Wtf were you nerds when we were talking about fantasy novels? :confused:

[G13]

Reading them.

[sharkythesharkdogg]

Wtf were you nerds when we were talking about fantasy novels? :confused:

Duh, In my parents basement playing RIFTS with my loser friends, or at a Babylon 5 convention.

Dopey.

[NorthernChaosGod]

Makes sense.

[Iceglow]

I was busy in your momma's bedroom to be honest. I couldn't help it she just kept putting those big ol' saggy fun bags in my face with that low cut top hows a man to resist?

[The Man]

I cannot smurfing wait, next time I'm over my mom's I'm bringing the rest of the series home to re-read :D

This is some of the best news all year.

Also side note, April 26th is it or April 16th that the first episode of a Game of Thrones is shown on HBO? I'm hoping they done it well HBO have been known for good stuff recently with their remake of Battlestar Galactica and The Wire and The Corner. From the vids I've seen on youtube it looks great and Martin is heavily involved in the project. Though I doubt they'll do everything in the books such as Jaime's and Cersei's incestrous sex scenes.

HBO didn't do the BSG remake; that was SciFi. They did do Rome and Deadwood though.

Anyway this is obviously great news, as is the GoT premiere. Let's hope he gets the last two out on a much tighter schedule. It would suck if they had to stop making the TV series because the last two books weren't out.

Also it would be nice if people in this thread would mark their spoilers. It was kind of a shock when Bran found out that Jaime and Cersei had an incestuous relationship and I would've been kind of pissed off to have the surprise spoiled for me. It was kind of the first hint anyone had that this wouldn't be an ordinary fantasy series.

[Iceglow]

The book has been out 10 years Man, dude...

However I understand your point.

Also my bad on BSG lol I knew in my gut I was wrong but meh too lazy to get up and check the signed dvd collection.

[The Man]

<div style="font: 16px Candara, Skia, Corbel, 'Trebuchet MS', Georgia, Geneva, Helvetica, Lucida, 'Lucida Grande', Arial, sans-serif; color: #38bcee; text-align: justify;">It's quite likely that a lot of people watching the TV series will be encountering the story for the first time. Far more people watch television than read books, unfortunately.</font>

[Jiro]

I haven't read these books and I plan on doing so. If you fuckers spoil it for me, I will rain down on you with the fury of a thousand demon cockcrushers from hell.

[Iceglow]

Don't read this thread then!

[Roogle]

Anyway this is obviously great news, as is the GoT premiere. Let's hope he gets the last two out on a much tighter schedule. It would suck if they had to stop making the TV series because the last two books weren't out.

I suspect that there is a possibility that if George R.R. Martin doesn't finish the series for whatever reason that its popular television series could take its own direction. This happened early on in development with the television series based on the Dexter book series.

[Ouch!]

I've heard rumblings that he's got some kind of deal with HBO that if they renew the show for another season, he's got a stricter timetable to complete the last two books of the series. From following his blog, I get the sense that a large part of the delay with A Dance with Dragons wasn't merely that he had trouble with certain plot arcs (he most certainly complained about the Myrenese Knot enough) but largely because he works on so many different projects at once. He's constantly editing and contributing to anthologies and also working on entries in the Wild Cards series he's been part of for a long time. If he focused his efforts more exclusively towards A Song of Ice and Fire we'd probably see an accelerated turnaround on the series.

[Raistlin]

I remember reading the last book not that long after it came out. And the sequel still isn't out yet? Jesus.

Maybe I should pick up the books again before it comes out. I'm sure I've forgotten many things.

[Ouch!]

"TO ZACK, MAY YOUR WINTERS BE SHORT."

He may have spelled my name wrong, but I've got copies of the first four books in the series signed by George R. R. Martin. Mind blown. Best present ever.

[Iceglow]

Ok maybe I've gone crazy, maybe I've become Serapy but I have a small theory of something which we may never know the answer to.

Jon's parentage, throughout the series so far we're led to believe he is Ned's bastard but thinking bout it, Ned went to war with Robert and came back with Jon but will not speak much about his birth or his mother as far as we're aware she was a wet nurse named Wylla.

However there was another possibility what I thought of: Robert Baratheon was meant to marry Ned's sister, Ned's sister never survived the war that made Robert King of the Seven Kingdoms. Considering he was never married to Ned's sister is it possible that Jon was really Robert and Ned's Sisters (sorry can't remember her name now) first born son and in effect the true heir to the Iron Throne (if you count Dany/Viserys out ofcourse) or have I gone crazy thoughts?

[NorthernChaosGod]

Jon Snow - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jon_Snow#Theories)

You wouldn't be the only one who thinks Ned isn't the father or that Lyanna is the mother.

[The Man]

Ok maybe I've gone crazy, maybe I've become Serapy but I have a small theory of something which we may never know the answer to.

Jon's parentage, throughout the series so far we're led to believe he is Ned's bastard but thinking bout it, Ned went to war with Robert and came back with Jon but will not speak much about his birth or his mother as far as we're aware she was a wet nurse named Wylla.

However there was another possibility what I thought of: Robert Baratheon was meant to marry Ned's sister, Ned's sister never survived the war that made Robert King of the Seven Kingdoms. Considering he was never married to Ned's sister is it possible that Jon was really Robert and Ned's Sisters (sorry can't remember her name now) first born son and in effect the true heir to the Iron Throne (if you count Dany/Viserys out ofcourse) or have I gone crazy thoughts?I'm honestly amazed you hadn't encountered the theory about Lyanna being Jon's mother before. It's actually more commonly held among fans than the cover story that Jon really is Ned's bastard. However, Rhaegar is usually theorised as his father, with the reasoning that if he were Rhaegar's son then Robert would probably want him dead; thus, hiding him as Ned's bastard would protect him from harm. It would also explain Ned's otherwise unexplained promise to Lyanna which he keeps dwelling upon. Lyanna and Rhaegar are generally accepted to have genuinely been in love, although this is not universally agreed upon either.

There's more explanation here (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/33416-the-lyanna-rhaegar-jon-thread-part-vi/page__view__findpost__p__1642390)

[G13]

That is incredibly interesting. I need to hurry and catch up on this series.

Speaking of which, I'm very interested to know why Tyrion is connected to Sansa in that family tree you linked, Julian. Why in fuck's name did I click that?

[Bunny]

Speaking of which, I'm very interested to know why Tyrion is connected to Sansa in that family tree you linked, Julian. Why in smurf's name did I click that?

Don't spoil it for yourself like I did. Just read the books faster!

[sharkythesharkdogg]

Listen to Bunny. That and other things start to get really interesting. That's why this 6 year wait has me so angry.

[NorthernChaosGod]

That is incredibly interesting. I need to hurry and catch up on this series.

Speaking of which, I'm very interested to know why Tyrion is connected to Sansa in that family tree you linked, Julian. Why in fuck's name did I click that?
Haha, oh noes. Just go read.

[G13]

The words don't move fast enough argh!

Sadly, I think I already know. I can figure it out easily enough. Damn you Julian. :(

[NorthernChaosGod]

Haha. It's a possible explanation for the lineage of Jon, why would you click? It should have been fairly clear there would be some chance of spoilers. :p

[G13]

Because I don't care about spoiling the lineage of Jon. That's not much of a spoiler tbh, even I had thought of a few scenarios. How was I to know that the imp getting to pork little Sansa later on in the series was somehow related to Jon's parentage?

[The Man]

They never actually consummate their marriage. At least, they haven't yet, and various plot developments make it extremely unlikely that it will ever happen. No, one of them hasn't died yet.

[NorthernChaosGod]

Because I don't care about spoiling the lineage of Jon. That's not much of a spoiler tbh, even I had thought of a few scenarios. How was I to know that the imp getting to pork little Sansa later on in the series was somehow related to Jon's parentage?

Lulz. Sorry then, mate.

[The Man]

It's finished (http://grrm.livejournal.com/212603.html).

[NorthernChaosGod]

He blogs on LiveJournal? :|

[Bunny]

Yes.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

<div style="font: 16px Candara, Skia, Corbel, 'Trebuchet MS', Georgia, Geneva, Helvetica, Lucida, 'Lucida Grande', Arial, sans-serif; color: #38bcee; text-align: justify;">
Ok maybe I've gone crazy, maybe I've become Serapy but I have a small theory of something which we may never know the answer to.

Jon's parentage, throughout the series so far we're led to believe he is Ned's bastard but thinking bout it, Ned went to war with Robert and came back with Jon but will not speak much about his birth or his mother as far as we're aware she was a wet nurse named Wylla.

However there was another possibility what I thought of: Robert Baratheon was meant to marry Ned's sister, Ned's sister never survived the war that made Robert King of the Seven Kingdoms. Considering he was never married to Ned's sister is it possible that Jon was really Robert and Ned's Sisters (sorry can't remember her name now) first born son and in effect the true heir to the Iron Throne (if you count Dany/Viserys out ofcourse) or have I gone crazy thoughts?I'm honestly amazed you hadn't encountered the theory about Lyanna being Jon's mother before. It's actually more commonly held among fans than the cover story that Jon really is Ned's bastard. However, Rhaegar is usually theorised as his father, with the reasoning that if he were Rhaegar's son then Robert would probably want him dead; thus, hiding him as Ned's bastard would protect him from harm. It would also explain Ned's otherwise unexplained promise to Lyanna which he keeps dwelling upon. Lyanna and Rhaegar are generally accepted to have genuinely been in love, although this is not universally agreed upon either.

There's more explanation <a rel="nofollow" href="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/33416-the-lyanna-rhaegar-jon-thread-part-vi/page__view__findpost__p__1642390" style="color: #38E897;" target="_blank">here</a></div>
I find the first theory presented actually the most interesting to consider, though I have yet to read anything beyond AGoTs.

I find the conversation about recessive alleles in the thread linked sorta funny because a) it is a fantasy world, reality is not necessarily a hundred percent reflected, 2) realistically speaking the disadvantages of interbreeding are minute, though increase over the generations of interbreeding, c) genetics outcome is not averages but probability, meaning the 30% average given is ridiculous, the chances are, working with the percentages given, 8% that the recessive alleles from both parents would appear in a child.

[Raistlin]

An unfavorable review of Martin's series. (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/04/why_i_am_not_interested_in_wat.php)

I have to agree with him to a point. IIRC, A Feast for Crows especially was a snoozefest, but I thought the other books were ok.

[The Man]

Feast is only boring if you don't care what happens to the common people of Westeros. If you do, that book gives a better depiction of how thoroughly the war has ravaged the continent than any previous entry in the series.

[The Man]

So who's read this? I have a lot of speculation but I don't want to taunt everyone with end of book spoilers if no one else can discuss them yet.

[Carl the Llama]

I am in the middle of reading it right now, going to go to the hotel signing in April next year so I can have the latest book signed, can't wait to see what happens to Daenerys ^^

[The Man]

what the hell, I'll go ahead and post now

General thoughts, may be considered kind of spoilerish but light on details. Having finished A Dance with Dragons it's quite obvious that this is indeed A Feast for Crows Part II. In some ways it shares many of the same attributes as the previous volume, and many people will look at them as flaws.

There is something to be said for this; I think the decision to split some of the material off to the next book will end up being disappointing to many readers. The entire book felt like it was building to a large number of confrontations that never really came, and large number of important characters' plotlines in the books end up with their fates completely uncertain.

That said, arguing that this weakens the book is kind of missing the point. Certainly, Feast and Dance felt less self-contained than the first three volumes; each of them built up to more of a sense of resolution than these two books offer.

However, I think this was almost inevitable. After it became apparent that it couldn't be wrapped up in three books, ASoIaF was intended as a set of two trilogies, and it's clear that Feast and Dance occupy roughly the same rôles in the second "trilogy" as A Game of Thrones occupied in the first trilogy: setting up the motivations for a giant war. It's pretty clear that this and Feast were mostly intended to move pieces around in a giant game of cyvasse (or the game of thrones, if that's how you prefer to look at it), and the next two books will be describing the actual battles. I'm okay with that, as long as they come out more rapidly than Feast and Dance did.

It's also fine that we had a pair of less rapidly paced books than Storm; it would have been impossible for the series to maintain the pace of that book because just about everyone was dead. The last two volumes have essentially introduced all the players that remained to be introduced, if Martin's commentary from interviews is any indication, so the last two volumes should be light on exposition and heavy on action.

Additionally, I don't think there was anything wrong with the level of exposition in the two most recent volumes; the worldbuilding and writing in the last two books has been some of Martin's best ever. We've gotten a more thorough feel for Westeros and Essos than we'd ever had before.

In any case, there is some resolution to some of the plot lines; Dany's story in Essos, for example, does wrap to a resolution, though it's not the resolution most readers will be expecting. The problem many readers will have is that Martin delights in confounding readers' expectations in this volume, and so readers will not in many cases get the resolutions they are expecting.

Overall I think my initial ranking of this as my second favourite book in the series will probably end up holding (although I might leave it tied with the first volume), though I still need to finish Clash and Feast in my re-read before I can say for certain. Storm is definitely still the highpoint of the series thus far.

Now, more specific thoughts and theories. Spoilers up to the end of the book. Do not read if you haven't finished. I'm smurfing serious. This book contains some of the biggest surprises in the series to date.

I liked Kevan, even if he was serving a bunch of people who were complete and utter dicks :( King's Landing is well and truly smurfed without him. Which, of course, was exactly the purpose of killing him off. The Targaryen loyalists could not have pulled off a better masterstroke and the King's Landing chapters in the next book are going to be hugely interesting to read through. Mostly for the feeling of schadenfreude. I did not expect Pycelle to bite it though. It's pretty apparent that he was nowhere near as incompetent as he attempted to portray himself as being, but then again the Targs have Varys on their side so if anyone could have seen through the feeble old man disguise it's him.

It's frustrating to have absolutely no idea whether Jon, Stannis, Mance, Jaime, Asha, or Theon survive, nor really even any clue what happened to a lot of them (although Jaime's fate has been pretty heavily hinted at, but I'm pretty sure the hints given us are deliberately misleading). I'm sure at least some of them survive but we'll probably have no idea which. I'm pretty sure Jon will die and be resurrected by Melisandre; several people have pointed out that Azor Ahai was prophesied to be born "beneath a bleeding star". Ser Patrek's sigil is a five-pointed star, and he certainly was bleeding. From NeoGaf, one of the forums where I lurk for ASOIAF content:
It's quite obvious Jon's not really going to be dead. GRRM left too many clues. Plus his stabbing scene fulfills the prophecy of Azor Ahai.

“It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.”
--Melisandre, SoS, pg. 289

The star is the sigil of the knight being killed by the giant, his blood running on his clothes. The darkness is the coming winter. The smoke is coming from Jon's wound when he pulls out the dagger, and the salt is represented in the tears of Bowen as he stabs Jon. I found all this on the Westeros forums, not on my own, but it still seems pretty clear. Plus with all the emphasis on wargs living on in their animals, I think there's no way Jon is actually dead. How he comes back is another question though. Also it's completely within the realm of possibility that he survives his wounds, people have survived worse in this series.Comment from Tower of the Hand:
Here are my arguments as to why Jon is inside Ghost, in no particular order. Boldfacing is mine.

1) Killing Jon now is bad storytelling, and major characters don't die off without serving a point. Ned's death started the entire War of the Five Kings. Robb and Catelyn's death ended the threat of the Northmen and turned her into Lady Stoneheart. Tywin's death propelled Tyrion overseas. There hasn't yet been a POV character off by "himself" (meaning no other POVs present) who just dies.

If Jon dies, not only is his story (parentage? Dany's vision of the flower in the wall of ice? the Others?) left incomplete, but there's no one to pick it up after him. The events of Ned's death carried into Arya and Sansa chapters, but who could continue Jon?

2) The prologue featured Varamyr Six-skins and warging into other bodies near the time of death. It stands to reason that Jon, as he becomes more capable of his abilities, is able to transfer his consciousness into Ghost.

3) Jon's first chapter begins with a wolf dream. This warrants a large quote:

"The wolf dreams had been growing stronger, and he found himself remembering them even when awake. Ghost knows that Grey Wind is dead. Robb had died at the Twins, betrayed by men he’d believed his friends, and his wolf had perished with him. Bran and Rickon had been murdered too, beheaded at the behest of Theon Greyjoy, who had once been their lord father’s ward … but if dreams did not lie, their direwolves had escaped. At Queenscrown, one had come out of the darkness to save Jon’s life. Summer, it had to be. His fur was grey, and Shaggydog is black. He wondered if some part of his dead brothers lived on inside their wolves."

4) Jon's third chapter ends with an ominous quote: "Jon rose and climbed the steps to the narrow bed that had once been Donal Noye’s. This is my lot, he realized as he undressed, from now until the end of my days." Ironically true. His death frees him from his oath to the Watch, but he's not truly gone.

5) In yet another Jon chapter, when Melisandre is talking to Jon about Ghost, she exhibits a strange control over Ghost, and hints at power and joining:
“You think so?” She knelt and scratched Ghost behind his ear. “Your Wall is a queer place, but there is power here, if you will use it. Power in you, and in this beast. You resist it, and that is your mistake. Embrace it. Use it.”

I am not a wolf, he thought. “And how would I do that?”

“I can show you.” Melisandre draped one slender arm over Ghost, and the direwolf licked her face. “The Lord of Light in his wisdom made us male and female, two parts of a greater whole. In our joining there is power. Power to make life. Power to make light. Power to cast shadows.”We shouldn't interpret this simply, where male plus female equals a force greater than the sum of its parts. She tells Jon of a power in him and a power in Ghost, and makes a hint of joining together to get power to make life. In other words, Jon + Ghost = new life.

This is supported by Melisandre asking about Ghost in Jon's final chapter, because she wants to be sure he's close enough for warging, because...

6) Melisandre saw this happen. Not only did she see the assassination coming ("You would do well to keep your wolf close beside you. Ice, I see, and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard, and naked steel. It was very cold.”) but she also saw how he escapes it:

"The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen."

I'm rushing this a little to get the reply in, but intend to flesh this out in more detail with additional supporting evidence. Zed's dead, baby, but Jon ain't.
Additionally, there isn't a good reason for anyone to reveal who Jon's parents are to anyone other than him. I wonder how George is going to contrive to bring Howland Reed and Jon together though, since Howland Reed is almost certainly the only living person who still knows about Jon's parentage (Ashara Dayne, Wylla, and Barristan Selmy are possible as well).

It's also frustrating that there are so few Davos and Bran chapters, because both of them had two of the best sets of chapters of the book but we saw so little of them. I'm glad we met the three-eyed crow and the children of the forest, but that was a third of the way through the book. I was hoping we'd get a glimpse of Skagos and Rickon this book as well, but alas. I was also somewhat annoyed that the plot in Meereen left off at a giant cliffhanger. The battle the entire book had been foreshadowing is forestalled off to the next book. I'm sure it'll be epic, but come on.

I want someone to do to Ramsay Bolton every inch of what he did to Theon and countless others. Ramsay is an even more loathsome character than Joffrey was. It would give me no greater pleasure than to have Theon be the one who engineers his undoing. I did not think I would ever find myself feeling that empathetic for Theon, but that was by far one of the most harrowing sequences I have ever read any character going through. If you can't find it in yourself to feel for him after that you're as cold as Stannis. I'm not terribly fond of Roose Bolton either, and nothing he does will ever make him anything less than a complete monster, but he's more a character I love to hate the way Tywin was. He's an interesting character who's clever and full of possibilities and even, strangely, regrets, while Ramsay Bolton is just a flat-out villain with no redeeming qualities.

That said I'm pretty sure Ramsay's letter was a fake. I can't imagine GRRM having Theon, "Arya", the banker, Asha, and Stannis all meet up only to be killed. But I want to know what actually happened. If anything he's probably woken the direwolf by writing that letter, since there's no way Jon would've been provoked to lead a host of free folk down to Winterfell without it. Jon's fate may be up in the air but I expect that won't stop people from going down there even without him.

Several people have pointed out that Mance may be hiding in the crypts, as his alias "Abel" is an anagram of "Bael". Most likely Ramsay captured one of the wildling women who was with him.

I find myself feeling kind of ambivalent about Victarion, but compared to, say, slavers who would nail 163 children to posts just for the purpose of saying "smurf you" to an invading army, he is by far the least of many evils.

Aegon is a baller. I foresee great things for him in the future.

It seems apparent that the word Brienne shouted at the hanging was "Sword," and we're supposed to think she took Jaime to Stoneheart. Which was no doubt her intention. I'm not sure this is really what will end up happening, however. There seems to be at least a slight amount of foreshadowing indicating that her character arc will need to lead her towards being an oathbreaker as well. We shall see what happens in a few years.

I also have a possibly crackpot theory theory that Ashara Dayne did not actually give birth to a stillborn child. More likely she gave birth to the child that was switched with baby Aegon. She has already been described as having "Targaryen-like features" if I am not mistaken (she had their fair hair and violet eyes, for example), and she was quite loyal to the Targaryen cause, so it would make sense for her offspring to be able to pass as Targaryens. This would also provide a more believable justification for her throwing herself off a tower in grief, if indeed that's what she did. There's also a fan theory that she never actually killed herself and is instead travelling with Aegon as "Septa Mordane." Tyrion's unerring instinct certainly indicated that she wasn't a septa, at any rate, so I'm pretty sure she's someone important from the backstory.

From the Penny Arcade forums, another board where I lurk for the ASOIAF content:
So, Dany bleeding and specifically mentioning it wasn't her time of the month was kind of odd.

What was that prophecy again?

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

(page 931) "The grass was paler than she remembered, a wan and sickly green on the verge of going yellow. After that would come brown. The grass was dying."You know, the grass of the dothraki sea.

Quentyn is from house Martell. Their sigil is the sun. He rose in the west(eros) and died, or set in the east

If someone can find a reference to mountains blowing in the wind, I think this is solid.I would leave it almost fifty-fifty as to what Daenerys does in the next book. She has certainly remembered she is a Targaryen; she will either decide to abandon Essos and conquer Westeros or she will decide to utterly annihilate her enemies on Essos. I am personally leaning towards the latter; while I do expect her to play some role in the inevitable invasion of Westeros by the Others, I do not expect this to come into play until later. Right now I expect her to use her dragons to purge slavery from Essos. Which, it should be noted, appears to be at least twice the size of Westeros, so that may be a pretty colossal undertaking. Certainly she will have many more allies in the next volume; Victarion, Tyrion, and the Dothraki she has encountered all seem likely to unite their forces with hers in the next volume.

I'm even more certain Coldhands is Benjen than I've ever been. Additionally, those Night's Watchmen he killed were the deserters who murdered Jeor Mormont. I'm calling it now.

Melisandre was one of the most fascinating viewpoints to read, I think. I did not call her switching of Rattleshirt and Mance at all. I hope we see more chapters from her viewpoint at all. I find myself liking her a lot more now that I've read her viewpoint, same as Jaime.

Jon killing Janos was smurfing awesome. I'm glad George switched it from hanging to Ned-style execution. That was so glorious to read, especially the brief Hope Spot Jon gave Janos before lopping off his head.

I really need to read the Dunk & Egg stories so I can appreciate Bloodraven showing up in Bran's second chapter. It would mean a lot more to me if I had any idea what Lord Brynden's historical rôle was.

Chapter index; these are quite spoilerish due to information contained within the titles and I would not click on them before finishing the book, especially since I've added the identity of the POV characters to the descriptions given in some titles which will undoubtedly spoil what they're up to at certain points of the book.


PROLOGUE (VARAMYR)
TYRION I
DAENERYS I
JON I
BRAN I
TYRION II
THE MERCHANT’S MAN (QUENTYN I)
JON II
TYRION III
DAVOS I
JON III
DAENERYS II
REEK (THEON I)
BRAN II
TYRION IV
DAVOS II
DAENERYS III
JON IV
TYRION V
DAVOS III
REEK (THEON II)
JON V
TYRION VI
DAENERYS IV
THE LOST LORD (JON CONNINGTON I)
THE WINDBLOWN (QUENTYN II)
THE WAYWARD BRIDE (ASHA I)
TYRION VII
JON VI
DAVOS IV
DAENERYS V
MELISANDRE I
REEK (THEON III)
TYRION VIII
BRAN III
JON VII
DAENERYS VI
THE PRINCE OF WINTERFELL (THEON IV)
THE WATCHER (AREO I)
JON VIII
TYRION IX
THE TURNCLOAK (THEON V)
THE KING’S PRIZE (ASHA II)
DAENERYS VII
JON IX
THE BLIND GIRL (ARYA I)
A GHOST IN WINTERFELL (THEON VI)
TYRION X
JAIME I
JON X
DAENERYS VIII
THEON VII
DAENERYS IX
JON XI
CERSEI I
THE QUEENSGUARD (BARRISTAN I)
THE IRON SUITOR (VICTARION I)
TYRION XI
JON XII
THE DISCARDED KNIGHT (BARRISTAN II)
THE SPURNED SUITOR (QUENTYN III)
THE GRIFFIN REBORN (JON CONNINGTON II)
THE SACRIFICE (ASHA III)
VICTARION II
THE UGLY LITTLE GIRL (ARYA II)
CERSEI II
TYRION XII
THE KINGBREAKER (BARRISTAN III)
THE DRAGONTAMER (QUENTYN IV)
JON XIII
THE QUEEN’S HAND (BARRISTAN IV)
DAENERYS X
EPILOGUE (KEVAN)Pretty sure I got the numbering all right but I may still be off on one or two of them.

Additionally:


George R.R. Martin's A Dance With Dragons, book five in his epic "A Song of Ice and Fire' series, had the highest single and first-day sales of any new fiction title published this year: 298,000 copies in print, digital, and audio formats, publisher Random House announced today.

On Tuesday, sales of 170,000 hardcovers (26% of the 650,000 pre-publication printings); 110,000 e-books; and 18,000 audio books were reported sold.
The rest of the series has moved another 4 million copies this year to bring it to 8.5 million books sold total. source (http://books.usatoday.com/bookbuzz/post/2011/07/record-sales-for-george-rr-martins-a-dance-with-dragons/176909/1)

Finally, the NYT is reporting (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/14/books/george-r-r-martins-dance-with-dragons-sells-well.htm?_r=1) that ADWD has singlehandedly revived bookstore sales. The store where I work has been noticeably busier since it came out.

[Psychotic]

I hope you are fucking right about Jon not really being dead or coming back. Good god I was not amused by that :colbert: Martin has a habit of pulling unamusing Stark deaths on me and I do not like it sir. I swear to god (the drowned one, ho ho ho) that if he does Arya in next... :argh:
I want someone to do to Ramsay Bolton every inch of what he did to Theon and countless others. Ramsay is an even more loathsome character than Joffrey was. It would give me no greater pleasure than to have Theon be the one who engineers his undoing. I did not think I would ever find myself feeling that empathetic for Theon, but that was by far one of the most harrowing sequences I have ever read any character going through.100% agreed with this. That was some seriously fucked up shit. He broke Theon almost as hard as Patchface is.

I would just like to say: HAAHHAAHAHHAHAH CERSEI HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH LEARNED.

Dany's story in Essos is becoming a bit played out and dull for me. I wish she'd get off her ass and fuck Westeros up already.

[Raistlin]

PZ Myers rips apart A Dance with Dragons and the series as a whole. (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/07/game_of_drones.php)

Overall, I agree with him. I thought the first book was entertaining, but the series continually went downhill. I haven't even gotten around to reading the latest book, but my expectations are minimal. I have long considered the series to be ok, but vastly overrated. I felt a bit odd several years ago when I came to that conclusion (some old LJ friends may remember) to find that basically everyone else I knew who had read Martin absolutely adored the series, but recently I've comforted myself with the fact that you're all just mentally deficient.

[The Man]

I didn't read much of that piece, but claiming that the series "went downhill" after the first book is a completely indefensible position because of four short words: A Storm of Swords. The first book isn't even in the same league as that book; very few other fantasy titles are.

It also sounds like Myers missed the point of the series in a pretty major way. Just because the series depicts violence against or degradation of women doesn't mean Martin approves of it. Martin also depicts flaying alive; does anyone seriously believe he approves of that? The chapter with Cersei happens to have been ripped straight out of medieval history, where several kings' mistresses were given the exact same treatment. On the other hand, Cersei is a character who committed treason, conspired to have the previous king murdered, and basically has been a terrible human being throughout the course of the entire series. Her actions are a large part of the reason the war described in the first three books took place to begin with. Even still, the chapter is clearly written to make her feel somewhat sympathetic to the reader, because the punishment she goes through is so horrifyingly extreme. Even then, it is nowhere near the worst punishment to which a character is subjected in the book. Theon gets a much, much, much worse one. But no one's accusing Martin of being misandrist for having him flayed alive and castrated.

tl;dr don't post opinions about tit you haven't even read

[Raistlin]

I said overall I agree with him about the series as a whole. I will readily agree that I do not side with him at all regarding the "female degradation = effective misogyny" little bit, which was out from left field. I suppose every book of literature including a rape scene must be sexist as well. I suppose it could be argued that it's overdone, but it does not necessarily reflect on the author's own opinion (although it can, see: Ayn Rand's disturbing view of sexual relationships in her fiction).

But I do agree with him to the extent that the series is overrated and poorly developed. I am not as adamant as he is (I think it's ok, just nothing special -- although the fourth book was terrible), but I was interested in seeing reactions to it.

[NorthernChaosGod]

Wtf does this book come out in paperback? I've been looking for a copy in paperback and haven't found shit. I'm not going to get a hardcover and screw up my collection.

[The Man]

At a guess, it probably won't be for another year. Publishers rarely bring out paperbacks until a book has been out a long time, especially when it's as highly anticipated as this one. If it sells especially well they may wait even longer. The Girl Who Kicked The Hornet's Nest has been out for well over a year and still doesn't have a paperback.

And the fourth book was far from terrible. I'm not sure I would even rank it as the weakest book in the series. It improves vastly on a reread, first of all, and secondly it contains some of the best worldbuilding and prose in the series. Doran Martell alone almost made the entire thing worth the price of admission. People were just impatient because they expected the book to continue the frenetic pace of A Storm of Swords, when the book was more intended as the first part of a second trilogy. (Admittedly, that first part had to get split up into two books, but regardless there were large numbers of new characters that needed to be introduced in each and now that this is done the series will pick up its pace again).

[NorthernChaosGod]

Ugh, that's such bullshit. I might as well just get them all in hardcover now. :mad2:

[The Man]

I thought about doing so myself but they've already changed the covers twice and probably will do so again. I'll just wait until the whole series is out before I try to acquire a matching collection.

[NorthernChaosGod]

That's even worse! :nonono: My first four books are all matching, this is horseshit.

[nirojan]

Does anyone else have this problem: the gold dust from the hardcover keeps flaking off? both on the side where the name is and that awesome emblem on the cover. But now that I finished the book, it's an amazing edition. All maps ever made come beautifully renditioned and the front and back flaps have the North and South on them.