Game of Thrones: House of the Dragon!

[Loony BoB]

Things I didn't like:
- That basically everyone died except the main characters, with just a couple of exceptions. I expected way more death to main/named characters, especially when you consider that the ratio of living to dead at the end, it was like "oh cool I can name very person still standing that makes sense." Like, can't they put a few randoms in there too?
- Bye Dothraki, aka suicide squad, who cares about you? :( Did ANY of them survive? I saw some horses, perhaps a few randoms returned too? It's a bit sad that the people who traveled furthest are sent in first.
- Who cares about the prophecy of Azor Ahai? Throw away all you knew about it, Arya is the badass here to kill Night King and literally can't think of anything that relates her to all of this.
--- sidenote on the above, I'm hoping that it's not actually all over with the Night King and we'll see at least a little more about this, perhaps one of those babies that they made into a white walker by touching the cheek long ago will be the new Night King in the future?
- All that fanfare and Night King just dies. I agree it wasn't satisfying. Well, it was and it wasn't. I dunno. I'm still thinking Cersei is the true villain of the series, Night King is just a way to move the other plots along.
- What WAS Bran doing with those ravens? Hopefully we find out he wasn't just having a cheap thrill before he's thinking he'll die. I was thinking it'd be cool if at the last second, the dragon or the Night King were distracted by a large flock of ravens flying into their face and then killed during the distraction.

Things I liked:
- Basically everything else :D I really enjoyed it. Wish I watched it in a darker room though, damn that was tough to see at times.

[Jinx]

Arya's Azor Ahai. She was reborn from Arya Stark into No One as her family died around her at the Twins, amidst the salted and smoked ham the Hound stole.

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

I enjoyed the episode but I've been so emotionally spent this week that the deaths didn't have the impact on me I'd expect they would after 8 seasons of caring about them.

I'd blame Endgame but I was kinda already drained even before going into that movie so Idk. Rough couple weeks.

[Night Fury]

All Winterfell needed was my ass to stop the wights getting in because honey, I was clenched for that whole episode GoTdaaayum.

[Slothy]

Overall I enjoyed the episode as some gratuitous violence and some fairly well shot stuff with some good moments between a few characters.

But the living largely fought like idiots and the night king was the biggest idiot of all. There was literally no reason for him to fight at all unless he's in some kind of hurry which they've certainly never indicated seeing as he's been beyond the wall building an army for thousands of years. All he had to do was surround the castle and wait and maybe ice javelin some dragons if a certain pair of targaryens get uppity. They didn't have enough food to feed everyone for a long period to begin with. And if they try to run then cut them down. Actively attacking winterfell was utterly pointless based on everything we know.

Also disappointed that that was it for the undead. Seems like they were just there to complicate killing cirsei in the end which is kind of meh. Maybe if they hadn't been defeated in the first battle after they break through the wall it would feel less anticlimactic.

[Jinx]

Also, smurf Sam. I've never been a Sam fan, and this episode is PRETTY MUCH WHY.

[Freya]

So I have some thoughts:


Melisandre's job given by the lord of light was to get there, support them, and guide Arya on the path.
Beric's job after being raised so many times was to keep her alive and get her to Mel to set her on her path.
The hound, who was touched by flame aka lord of light, was also set up to do this.
Jon, who was raised by said lord of light, was distracting a big ass scary dragon who could still smurf up a lot of things, preventing it from defending NK. Also taking the north back all that fun to get her there.



Little Arya was the best fighter with everyone. Her weapon was versatile, she learned how to move and be quick from using a staff when blind. When injured, she had to flee but was so sneaky she was able to get through the library unseen. Was only the other horde that gave her away. The episode prior when she met Jon, it was in the godswood and he was like "How'd you sneak up on me?" then we have her being sneaky here to remind you that she's a small, quick, sneaky mothersmurfer.

Then we recall the "What do we say to god of death? Not Today." and if we think back to that training. He taught her to be a water dancer. He said that the westerosi are predictable so be quick and unpredictable. The entire fight has been predictable for their armies. Jon thinking he could run between a horde to the night king. The two of them fighting in the skies with him. Dany trying to burninate him, even Theon's attack. All predictable.

So in this final moment, Theon made his attack which stopped the posse from moving and the night king just kinda dealt with him and moved on to bran. They were all focused on Bran cause, well hell he's right there. Like this is golden at this point, plans done. So here comes unpredictable little Arya dashing in, jumping and attack. So he sees it cause oh a jump attack, pft. Nope, hand switch and bam, unpredictable.

He had to be killed by assassination. There wouldn't have been another way, he would have seen it and been able to adapt. Arya knocking him out has been set up from season 1.


And now that I think of it, that's awfully convenient that the "lord of light" spoke to people and told them things. So like... is that what bran was doing? Is Bran somehow the lord of light? I dunno. I'm sure we'll get more answers.


As for the night king. His sole purpose was to kill humans per the children of the forest. He just got evil machine like to do so and really really good at it. And as long as the three-eyed raven lives, all of history is still alive and they will never truly destroy humanity. So that's why he was important and that's the sole point of them. The rest of humankind would be easy to take out. So no biggie on them.

But he was just another King. Another king vying for the thrown. The fact that the supernatural undead villains are just a b-plot is a little amusing to me. Because the entire series people are like "ugh what does all this political stuff have to do with anything". That IS the series, the supernatural stuff is just flavor. It is the game of THRONES. The clash of KINGS. Cersei as final boss is amusing, but fitting for how much we've set up here.

"The only thing that matters is the great war"

Nope! It's not.

[Loony BoB]

He had to be killed by assassination. There wouldn't have been another way, he would have seen it and been able to adapt. Arya knocking him out has been set up from season 1.
Just because this ended up being the result doesn't mean that it is true, satisfying, reasonable or good story-telling. Honestly it seemed completely out of left field, I don't think it was set up from season 1 at all. Also, she had no personal care about the Night King compared to about 50 other people and things out there, so it just makes it all the more "wait, what?" when it comes to story-telling. Sometimes it's interesting to surprise people but I think in this case it just looks bad on their part more than anything.

I like Arya, I want her to do well, I'd love for her to kill Cersei, but killing the Night King just seemed absurd to me on a story-telling level. Especially as we don't even see how she turned up there in the first place. She's running from random wights and then BAM hi Night King bye Night King. I think the writer(s) just became so obsessed with not letting people guess who Azor Ahai was, who would kill Night King, etc. that they insisted on doing something that not many (if any) people were guessing purely so they could say "eh, didn't see that coming, eh? right? haha psych!"

[Freya]

Look, just cause you didn't connect and catch it, didn't mean it wasn't what was set up. Hell, look at the Hodor set up from the beginning that no one saw coming but was there for us. It literally set up seasons of her learning to be sneaky and stealthy and "no one". They gave her "useless arcs", as people said, to get to this skill level.

Just because you missed it and didn't connect the dots, didn't mean they weren't there to connect.

Same thing I say about Sansa and her becoming a major political manipulator and mover. People are like "when did she get so smart?" and i'm like uhhhhhh it's been happening the whole time where have you been?
or
"What Gendry and Arya? That's out of left field!" Uh no, it wasn't? They set that up way back in season two when they met, she was even oogling him at harrenhal.

It's like people don't actually watch or remember the things that happen in this show and want to complain later lmao

[Freya]

Arya making the killing blow makes sense.

What is a disappointment of the ending isn't that. It's that the White Walkers and NK didn't even really fight anyone. They just walked menacingly. The NK was just on a dragon and threw his spear. But the fact that these super badasses did... nothing? That was what was disappointing. Arya making the kill was set up a lot. Them not fighting at all is the bleh thing.

What I was hoping for that Bran was warging into nymeria and her pack and would have showed up. That would have been dope.

[Shaibana]

<--- Poor me :(

- i am disapointed with how sweet they are on us. hardly anyone of importance died. i was prepared, i could've handled it.

- i admit i did not think the night king would die this episode. as he aproached Bran i for a moment really thought winterfell was properly screwed and thought 'Wouw, what will they do from here? leave the remaining episodes to Cersei?'

- WHAT WAS BRAN DOING?? i doubt he was just flying the crows, there must be more, right?

- I dont think this is THE end of the end for the white walkers, it would be to easy? we still dont really know what their purpose/goal was? there must be more to it!

[Freya]

Oh so they've been doing these 40 minutes behind the scenes things they share the next day. If anyone wants to watch the making of this episode.

_3M0Xt97aFI

[Kalevala]

I like Arya, I want her to do well, I'd love for her to kill Cersei, but killing the Night King just seemed absurd to me on a story-telling level. Especially as we don't even see how she turned up there in the first place. She's running from random wights and then BAM hi Night King bye Night King.

Not necessarily. Melisandre drops a few hints for her while they're taking refuge in the fireplace room and she runs off knowing full well what she has to do. We, as viewers, are given a sleight of hand for the next few scenes while we worry about other characters and forget that she ran off with purpose. She was headed right for him.

[Psychotic]

Arya knocking him out has been set up from season 1. I don't think so. Remember that in Season 1 they were following the books very closely and the belief was that The Winds of Winter and maybe even A Dream of Spring would be out by now. The Night King is very much a show invention - GRRM has said as much - and doesn't appear until Season 4.

I actually think they've planned it since Season 7 when they introduced the concept that killing a White Walker also kills its Wights. We hadn't seen that when previous White Walkers were killed in previous seasons by Sam and at Hardhome so I think they came up with it as an answer to the "How do you defeat the Army of the Dead?" question. Introducing that concept and having Bran give Arya the dagger was when they started sowing the seeds, I think. That and the Brienne knife trick.

With that said, I don't have a problem with Arya being the one to do it. Jon, Daenerys and maybe even Jaime would be very cliched and predictable. Although 1) I don't really like her smirking remorseless badass show portrayal and 2) a couple of easily missed salty smoky Azor Ahai hints about Arya would've been nice.

[Shaibana]

another question of GREAT importance:
https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aXYdPKV_460s.jpg

[Jinx]

Arya knocking him out has been set up from season 1. I don't think so. Remember that in Season 1 they were following the books very closely and the belief was that The Winds of Winter and maybe even A Dream of Spring would be out by now. The Night King is very much a show invention - GRRM has said as much - and doesn't appear until Season 4.

I actually think they've planned it since Season 7 when they introduced the concept that killing a White Walker also kills its Wights. We hadn't seen that when previous White Walkers were killed in previous seasons by Sam and at Hardhome so I think they came up with it as an answer to the "How do you defeat the Army of the Dead?" question. Introducing that concept and having Bran give Arya the dagger was when they started sowing the seeds, I think. That and the Brienne knife trick.

With that said, I don't have a problem with Arya being the one to do it. Jon, Daenerys and maybe even Jaime would be very cliched and predictable. Although 1) I don't really like her smirking remorseless badass show portrayal and 2) a couple of easily missed salty smoky Azor Ahai hints about Arya would've been nice.

I ALREADY MENTIONED THE HAMS, JESUS

[Freya]

Arya knocking him out has been set up from season 1. I don't think so. Remember that in Season 1 they were following the books very closely and the belief was that The Winds of Winter and maybe even A Dream of Spring would be out by now. The Night King is very much a show invention - GRRM has said as much - and doesn't appear until Season 4.

I actually think they've planned it since Season 7 when they introduced the concept that killing a White Walker also kills its Wights. We hadn't seen that when previous White Walkers were killed in previous seasons by Sam and at Hardhome so I think they came up with it as an answer to the "How do you defeat the Army of the Dead?" question. Introducing that concept and having Bran give Arya the dagger was when they started sowing the seeds, I think. That and the Brienne knife trick.

With that said, I don't have a problem with Arya being the one to do it. Jon, Daenerys and maybe even Jaime would be very cliched and predictable. Although 1) I don't really like her smirking remorseless badass show portrayal and 2) a couple of easily missed salty smoky Azor Ahai hints about Arya would've been nice.

I mean yeah, the Night King is a show creation. But I don't doubt that they didn't set some of this up or at least used what was already set up.

Per the wights not dying at hardhome, a lot of White walkers were there so I don't think that many would have dropped anyway, or would have been noticeable. But it's a good point to add. The sam point really messes with it though, yeah. Well I went back and read the prophecy and it just kinda says Azor Ahai would be there to fight the darkness. I think that the Prince that was Promised and Azor Ahai aren't necessarily the same. That they could be separate and that they fit dany and jon. But I don't think that means that they themselves would be the one to take out the NK but be there in the fight. I feel forever though they tell us not to trust the prophecies so much.


Edit: Okay watching the behind the scenes and they said that when they wrote it, they knew for about three years that it would be Arya to kill him. So that would be during Season 5 or 6 when they did know. They imply that the same dagger could have been the one that was used to create him, that's why they put it in the book that Sam read. But they'd let you run with that if that's what they meant or not.

[Psychotic]

I looked into this and we have some quotes from the show's lead writers from Inside the Episode:
David: For, God, I think it's probably 3 years now or something, we've known that it was going to be Arya who delivers that fatal blow.

Dan: She seemed like the best candidate provided we weren't thinking about her in that moment. One of the great things about having this many people you care about in a sequence together is you can kind of pull people's attention and focus to people they care about a lot like Jon and like Dany, Theon and Bran, not to mention Tyrion and Sansa in the crypts. So you're going all over the place with people who you're desperately worried for and hopefully you forget about the fact that Arya Stark ran out of the castle with the battle drums playing and going towards some purpose, and we don't know what until it happens.

David: We hope to kind of avoid the expected, and Jon Snow has always been the one to be the hero, the one who's been the savior, but it just didn't seem right to us for this moment. We knew it had to be Valyrian Steel to the exact spot where the Child of the Forest put the dragonglass blade to create the Night King, and he is un-created by the Valyerian Steel. At the end of it it's still, it's a victory for the living but at great cost because some of our favorite characters fall along the way.So three years ago would've been when they were writing Season 7 as Season 6 was just airing. Feeling a little bit smug now!

...but they chose her because it's unexpected? blegggggh. Shock for the sake of shock is the tool of hacks.

[Freya]

I took that it was 3 years before they wrote it, not 3 years from when they filmed the last season

[Freya]

OMG, watching this inside the episode. smurfing lmao. I will know that BUZZZZ anywhere. They're talking to Jorah about his final scene and it's the Leaving Earth Song from Mass Effect 3. Silly GoT, you had all that music to choose from and you picked Mass Effect?

_3M0Xt97aFI?t=2290

Oh drats, time stamps don't work with our youtube tag. It's at 38:10

txQYTlZFz-M

[Jinx]

76150

76151

LotR Shireposting coming at ya with some fire memes.

[Freya]

To be fair, while LoTR was kinda godfather of fantasy, it isn't really the best thing to compare to others lol and has a lot of weak plot points itself.

If every fantasy movie/show ended in the same formula as that one then uhh.... things would be so boring. When they do, that's when they suck. See like all the meh fantasy in the past. Not to say that GoT is peak fantasy either but, having different outcomes or plots isn't a bad thing. Comparing this series to others is always gonna be a bad time. That's what has made it so popular because it does things differently.

[Jinx]

76152

76153

[Slothy]

76150

That's hardly a fair comparison considering how many armies no one but Cersei has anymore. This is more "congrats on surviving the zombie apocalypse. Now it's time for the villain to kill you all while your back was turned. How will they get out of this one? Tune in next time! Same bat time! Same bat channel!"

[Loony BoB]

Look, just cause you didn't connect and catch it, didn't mean it wasn't what was set up. Hell, look at the Hodor set up from the beginning that no one saw coming but was there for us. It literally set up seasons of her learning to be sneaky and stealthy and "no one". They gave her "useless arcs", as people said, to get to this skill level.

Just because you missed it and didn't connect the dots, didn't mean they weren't there to connect.
See, I just don't think that being a really good ninja assassin means that you're going to be the right person to make the killing blow in a story. I don't think Jon is the best fighter in the world, nor do I think Dany is the best leader, but I'll be damned if the story hasn't made them into excellent proponents for both of those things. Arya doing an assassin move on a person sitting comfy like she did with Frey? Total assassin move. Arya doing it on a battlefield? Not quite assassin-y. On the battlefield, I do believe the person who is best on the battlefield should get the killing blow, and I think the Night King should have died on the battlefield.

The key difference, though, for me between your thoughts and my thoughts is that you seem to think being the best killer makes her the right person to have the killing blow and I completely disagree. Personally I think it's important - especially when you have freaking prophecies drummed into from the very first season about the Prince that was Promised being the one who would win this war. This person would have to...

- Be born amidst smoke and salt.
- Wake dragons out of stone.
- Draw from the fire a burning sword.

None of these things seem to be very Arya at all. I don't really get how Arya was the right person for the story that we were being presented with. Yes, she is a great assassin and actually one of my favourite characters but I totally agree with Psy about it being a sham that they did it just to surprise people, and it seems based on his post that this is exactly what happened, not because of good story telling but because they just wanted to not be predictable. Sometimes predictable isn't a bad thing, especially when you bring prophecies into it.


Same thing I say about Sansa and her becoming a major political manipulator and mover. People are like "when did she get so smart?" and i'm like uhhhhhh it's been happening the whole time where have you been?
or
"What Gendry and Arya? That's out of left field!" Uh no, it wasn't? They set that up way back in season two when they met, she was even oogling him at harrenhal.
And those make perfect sense story-wise. Again, I'm not arguing that she shouldn't be an awesome killer but that she shouldn't be the one to end the war.


It's like people don't actually watch or remember the things that happen in this show and want to complain later lmao
It's like people DO actually watch and remember the things that are prophesied in this show that means we want to complain when they are tossed into the wastebasket. I'm still hoping they can make it work that the Prince that was Promised will make sense but I don't know if it will.


What I was hoping for that Bran was warging into nymeria and her pack and would have showed up. That would have been dope.
I was kind of hoping he'd warg into one of the dragons...



I like Arya, I want her to do well, I'd love for her to kill Cersei, but killing the Night King just seemed absurd to me on a story-telling level. Especially as we don't even see how she turned up there in the first place. She's running from random wights and then BAM hi Night King bye Night King.

Not necessarily. Melisandre drops a few hints for her while they're taking refuge in the fireplace room and she runs off knowing full well what she has to do. We, as viewers, are given a sleight of hand for the next few scenes while we worry about other characters and forget that she ran off with purpose. She was headed right for him.
Well, yeah, I guess on some level. But I saw it more of "kill the dead" than "kill the Night King". But I guess I can see what you mean when referring to the point you quoted so fair dos.

[Freya]

Look, just cause you didn't connect and catch it, didn't mean it wasn't what was set up. Hell, look at the Hodor set up from the beginning that no one saw coming but was there for us. It literally set up seasons of her learning to be sneaky and stealthy and "no one". They gave her "useless arcs", as people said, to get to this skill level.

Just because you missed it and didn't connect the dots, didn't mean they weren't there to connect.
See, I just don't think that being a really good ninja assassin means that you're going to be the right person to make the killing blow in a story. I don't think Jon is the best fighter in the world, nor do I think Dany is the best leader, but I'll be damned if the story hasn't made them into excellent proponents for both of those things. Arya doing an assassin move on a person sitting comfy like she did with Frey? Total assassin move. Arya doing it on a battlefield? Not quite assassin-y. On the battlefield, I do believe the person who is best on the battlefield should get the killing blow, and I think the Night King should have died on the battlefield.

Okay but did you miss the entire montage of her just wrecking trout on the walls? Like it isn't like she's a bad fighter on the battlefield either. I'm just saying that it's a stretch to dismiss her skills because you personally didn't think she should have been the one to get the killing blow.

[Shauna]

I don't care about anything except the death of Lyanna Mormont

She died as she lived

RIP

[Loony BoB]

Look, just cause you didn't connect and catch it, didn't mean it wasn't what was set up. Hell, look at the Hodor set up from the beginning that no one saw coming but was there for us. It literally set up seasons of her learning to be sneaky and stealthy and "no one". They gave her "useless arcs", as people said, to get to this skill level.

Just because you missed it and didn't connect the dots, didn't mean they weren't there to connect.
See, I just don't think that being a really good ninja assassin means that you're going to be the right person to make the killing blow in a story. I don't think Jon is the best fighter in the world, nor do I think Dany is the best leader, but I'll be damned if the story hasn't made them into excellent proponents for both of those things. Arya doing an assassin move on a person sitting comfy like she did with Frey? Total assassin move. Arya doing it on a battlefield? Not quite assassin-y. On the battlefield, I do believe the person who is best on the battlefield should get the killing blow, and I think the Night King should have died on the battlefield.

Okay but did you miss the entire montage of her just wrecking trout on the walls? Like it isn't like she's a bad fighter on the battlefield either. I'm just saying that it's a stretch to dismiss her skills because you personally didn't think she should have been the one to get the killing blow.
Yes, we discovered in this episode, for the first time, she is capable of killing lots of wights on a battlefield. She's good, absolutely. But I feel like you're just really trying to make it okay in your head that this was perfectly done and built up over many seasons when in all reality it was just destroying literally 8 years of reading and hearing about the prophecies. It literally crapped all over one of the best bits of lore in the entire series just to say "oh man let's have a ninja do it." I don't think anyone has ever seen Arya bitch about the Night King. Has she even ever talked about him? Is there anything linking her to him? For me, good story telling needs some satisfaction. It can be tragic, but the characters should still have some vague link, a direct motive other than survival, when dealing with the most ominous boss of the series. Cersei is the final boss and rightly so, and again I'd love for Arya to have been the one to kill her, just like I really loved watching Littlefinger die at the hands of Arya, and Frey too. But Arya was always about the living, not the dead. "Not today" is about survival, not about taking out an enemy.

It's about the story we're being presented with. It's about the prophecies, which I adore. It's about good writing. I didn't get angry when Sam killed a white walker because he wasn't good enough. I don't get angry when really good fighters get killed by other really good fighters. I just want it to be satisfying when we've waited 8 seasons for this moment, and I feel like they dropped the ball because they wanted it to be unexpected. Don't throw prophecies around for that long for the sake of bait and switch. I genuinely feel the writers just desperately wanted to feel clever and better than the viewers, and if anything it's just made them look stupid.

[Lord Golbez]

There's no proof any of the prophecies are valid anyway. Game of Thrones started out pretty low fantasy. Yes, it's strayed from that in the last couple seasons but it would be pretty fitting if the prophecies turned out to be wrong. Sure, most of Cersei's prophecy haa already come true, but what if the rest of it just doesn't? So what? There's no guarantee that prophecies have to be true.

[Jinx]

The bait-and-switch, to be fair, is probably what's going to happen in the books. GRRM makes it pretty well known that believing in prophecies is kind of stupid, and even when they do work out, they're a monkey's paw situation. Don't take them at face value.

smurf prophecy, smurf tradition, smurf ancestors.

EDIT: I think it's pretty telling that there can be an argument for literally every main character to be TPTWP.

[Fox]

There's no proof any of the prophecies are valid anyway. Game of Thrones started out pretty low fantasy. Yes, it's strayed from that in the last couple seasons but it would be pretty fitting if the prophecies turned out to be wrong. Sure, most of Cersei's prophecy haa already come true, but what if the rest of it just doesn't? So what? There's no guarantee that prophecies have to be true.

Prophecies are just glorified spoilers ^^

I generally agree with this and dislike when stories hinge around "that which has been foretold". People using prophecies for their own ends - great, I love it. Having said that, if you make a big deal about a prophecy and then it just doesn't happen, without any clear reason why, it doesn't feel like a clever red herring, it just feels lazy.

[Jinx]

I'm not totally convinced the battle with the dead is completely over. There's still time for shit to go down, and I really hope it does. If this is all we get, I'm going to be extremely disappointed.

It's just sad, because I was SO fucking hype for this episode, but I don't really care much about next week's episode. We'll see if they can bring it back for me.

[WarZidane]

Game of Thrones started out pretty low fantasy.

Literally the first scene in both the books and the show is a group of the night's watch getting murdered by undead. I guess if you consider undead low fantasy :p

Anyway, considering the entire series had the vibe of "petty political stuff distracts most of mankind from the real threat", I'll just consider the remaining three episodes the epilogue, even though Cersei with her complete lack of foresight will end up killing more main characters than the undead army that had the patience to wait 8000 years but got annihilated in one night because Arya is undetectable out in the open, moments after being very detectable in a library.

[Fox]

Game of Thrones started out pretty low fantasy.

Literally the first scene in both the books and the show is a group of the night's watch getting murdered by undead. I guess if you consider undead low fantasy :p

Anyway, considering the entire series had the vibe of "petty political stuff distracts most of mankind from the real threat", I'll just consider the remaining three episodes the epilogue, even though Cersei with her complete lack of foresight will end up killing more main characters than the undead army that had the patience to wait 8000 years but got annihilated in one night because Arya is undetectable out in the open, moments after being very detectable in a library.

I've always thought of it as "irritating supernatural threat distracts important characters from the political intrigue"

[WarZidane]

Game of Thrones started out pretty low fantasy.

Literally the first scene in both the books and the show is a group of the night's watch getting murdered by undead. I guess if you consider undead low fantasy :p

Anyway, considering the entire series had the vibe of "petty political stuff distracts most of mankind from the real threat", I'll just consider the remaining three episodes the epilogue, even though Cersei with her complete lack of foresight will end up killing more main characters than the undead army that had the patience to wait 8000 years but got annihilated in one night because Arya is undetectable out in the open, moments after being very detectable in a library.

I've always thought of it as "irritating supernatural threat distracts important characters from the political intrigue"

Is it really that intriguing anymore when the big baddie just blows all of her opposition sky-high in an explosion that levels a large chunk of the city and all the remaining people are just "k, guess we'll follow her even though she just did that"?

[Fox]

Is it really that intriguing anymore when the big baddie just blows all of her opposition sky-high in an explosion that levels a large chunk of the city and all the remaining people are just "k, guess we'll follow her even though she just did that"?

No, which is probably why I'm not all that excited about new Game of Thrones anymore :p

[Slothy]

Yes, we discovered in this episode, for the first time, she is capable of killing lots of wights on a battlefield.

Except that one time she sparred with Brienne, one of the well established best fighters in the show, and looked like she was playing with her.

Playing. With one of the best fighters in the world. And pushing her harder in their little "sparring" match than most would in an actual 1 on 1 fight.

And then in this episode she fights some plentiful and tireless, but largely not that bright, corpses using a weapon she designed to suit her style of fighting perfectly. It is not a surprise that she could fight that well.

EDIT: And how in the fuck could I even forget that the girl was a tough fighter when she couldn't even fucking see?

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

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I'll give this picture of the main cast a little scribbly each week.

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[Fox]

All things considered, that was a surprisingly low body count (of major characters)

[Jinx]

I'm going to rewatch here in a minute when my dinner arrives. I didn't cry last night, but I keep seeing pictures of Jorah as he's dying, and I think I'm going to get emotional now. I always really liked him. :(

[Aulayna]

Y'know, now I've had 10 minutes or so to digest and get over the spectacle of it all, that was actually a pretty disappointing conclusion to the undead arc.

I really hope the remaining episodes have some curve balls in them from beyond the wall and aren't just Cersei somehow outsmarting everyone (and probably killing more people than an undead army in the process) until her eventual demise, because unsatisfying wouldn't even begin to cover that.

[Jinx]

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[The Captain]

So I think the best way to look at Game Of Thrones now is through two lenses: The Show as spectacle and The Show as story.

The spectacle of The Long Night was magnificent. The entire sequence with the Dothraki gave me literal chills, seeing the lighting of the swords all along the line conjured up memories of the beacons being lit in Return of The King. Then seeing them snuffed out so quickly was chilling for entirely other reasons. Though there are many complaints I've seen about how hard it was to follow the action due to lack of light, I actually prefer this more realistic version as it puts the viewer in the actual POV of what conditions would be like. Things would be near impossible to see and when the dead swarm started, it was just chaos. Plus, the important things were certainly lit well enough. It's still head scratching about how they use Ghost and the dragons but that's a bit about the budget and also seems like a choice to pivot toward the humans rather than the fantasy.

I thought the show did a masterful job of giving us just enough of a check-in with various characters to keep us guessing who would die though it pulled its punches a bit, especially with all the characters in the courtyard who seemed to be on the brink for the entire episode only to survive. This either means the show is just getting a bit sentimental at its end OR it's a false lull before the rug gets pulled most likely in Episode 5, also directed by Miguel Sapochnik. I'm guessing that's the battle for King's Landing episode.

Having Arya ultimately defeat The Night's King was clearly meant to be a shock and it was for me. I had sort of figured she might do the deed, like most, when the "Blue eyes" got extra mention from Melisandre but I had definitely forgotten about her in that last moment, which was the point. Her story arc fit into the ending and was clearly also meant as a misdirect though how it ties into the lore of the show, that's left for a lot of debate.

Overall, what Game of Thrones continues to do better than any TV show I've ever seen is scale and epic spectacle. It pulls off set pieces better than most movies.

NOW, the story, that is where things are very tricky. I think clearly, as soon as Jon Snow came back, the internal logic of the show has been thrown off its axis. Suddenly, not all bad choices meant you suffered consequences forever and the ideas the show was playing with, from the time travel to the Night's King to the lord of light seemed to be put into hyperdrive because there was just so much to cover and only so many episodes left. It was around this point where I decided to really just enjoy the show moreso for its ability to tell its version of the story and not try to figure out how all the internal pieces should fit together. The reality is they won't unless GRRM completes the story himself in the books, which can dig deeper into the myths and legends and perhaps give us everything actually happening with Bran, the direwolves and all the other loose ends.

These last three episodes will be unpredictable, since it seems thats what the show is angling for now and hopefully it finds some grace notes along the way that stick with us. Ending any TV series is a really tough task, especially when you start with a tight blueprint and then are sort of riffing by the end. They have a finish line in sight, and while we'd prefer the slow grind of the world building we love, they now need to just sprint to get there.

It'll be about moments now. The Hound Versus The Mountain. The Lannisters Versus Each Other. Perhaps Dany Versus Jon. The moments might not all add up as we think they should, but they will be glorious to behold.

Take care all.

[Bubba]

I'm pretty surprised that people thought Arya killing the Night King was unexpected. I thought her and Jon were the two most likely candidates. As soon as Bran gave her the Valyrian steel dagger you knew it was gonna play a big part. Plus, her assassin training made her possibly a more likely candidate than Jon. As much as Jon got reasonably close, it was unlikely NK was gonna be killed by brute force/direct combat.

Despite other methods of ending NK, I also think it was always going to be Valyrian steel to strike the final blow. That narrows the group of potential killers considerably. Brienne has Oathbreaker, Sam gave Heartsbane to Jorah, Jon obviously has Longclaw and I think Jamie ended up with Joffrey's Widow's Wail, didn't he? They were all present at The Battle of Winterfell and there's a case for all of them... but I had Arya at the top of that small list with her skillset.

Edit: So only myself and one other guy here at work thought Arya would kill NK so I'm currently leading the GoT Death Pool :cool:

[Aulayna]

Traveling in GoT explained

https://imgur.com/gallery/lL2Gyf0
(https://imgur.com/gallery/lL2Gyf0)

Also I have no issues with Arya killing the Night King, I'm just more disappointed at how he died - and that him and the wights basically did nothing for the entire battle. Ok the Night King did some rather questionable things tactics wise, but the wights just seemed to be there to be his parade procession. After all these years of them being made it to be the big "threat" the way in which their leader was felled felt rather anti-climatic (I guess) to me. /shrug

[Bubba]

Also, can we acknowledge how terrible a master Jon is towards Ghost? He literally doesn't give a shit about him anymore. Now he's upgraded with Rhaegal it's like the poor pup doesn't exist to him. Yet there he was, leading the cavalry charge alongside Jorah like a GOOD BOY.

[Loony BoB]

Aulayna, because I'm a horrible pedant: The wights did a lot, the white walkers did little.

Slothy: Yeah, but that's still a one-on-one fight. I said a battlefield, that means you're up against multiple targets who are all attacking simultaneously. I'm not saying she wasn't capable but it was literally the first time we'd seen this happen, at least as far as I can remember.

Re: Prophecies, I completely agree with this:

Having said that, if you make a big deal about a prophecy and then it just doesn't happen, without any clear reason why, it doesn't feel like a clever red herring, it just feels lazy.

Bubba: Completely agree regarding Ghost, and it's more to do with the special effects budget going near-100% towards dragons. Which I'm kind of okay with but I miss my big ol' doggo scenes.

[Jinx]

I'm okay with Arya killing the Night King. Really have little issue with it. Jon or Dany would've been too predictable. Narratively, Jaime killing him would have been my favorite, so that he could be revered as the Kingslayer for the rest of his life. I think, though, D&D don't realize most people who watch this show haven't given a shit about Arya since since after s3, since she's been a little psychopath with a shit story since then. But, I don't understand the criticism that she wasn't really prepared to do an assassination. In any case, if they wanted someone unpredictable, I'd have rather seen someone like Gilly, Tyrion, or even someone completely fucking random kill him. Seeing someone nearly scrape by with their life and just barely kill him to make him seem like an actual threat, and to make it feel like it was hard fought for. Regardless, I really got caught up in the moment, and how she got him was bad ass. It would've been better seeing her jump out of the godswood tree at least, just so people would shut up about where she came from.

My issue is that the last two seasons has been entirely about preparing for The Great War. The entire storyline of the Wall has always been about that. The story being handed to us has always been WE DON'T FUCKING HAVE TIME FOR THIS. And then he's just one-shot. And there's really little explanation to his motives (Bran's bullshit in e2 is BARELY an explanation, and it's only an explanation about why the NK wants HIM), culture, whatever. All of this could be okay to me--life is unceremonious and we don't always get the answers we want. But the more I reflect, the more I think this would have worked if we'd had a full season.

I would have like to see devastating losses at Winterfell to the point they had to retreat, and only a small number of them were able to escape to the Iron Islands while licking their wounds. Only to find out the NK had been hiding his hands, and he actually can travel by water. Or see them have to retreat south. I don't know, there's many ways it could have been done. It's the fact that we've been building up to this episode for years, only to have the NK yeeted in one episode. It was too sudden and completely anticlimactic and unbelievable. That we only lost two important characters (Jorah and Theon) makes it moreso. Had we spent just another episode or two on the WW, and then find out NO ACTUALLY CERSEI IS THE FINAL BOSS, it would've subverted fantasy expectations, but also been more satisfying.

It's possible that they can still pull it out for me, as I've been saying. I'm not wholly convinced the AotD is gone, or that the Night King was the Night King, or what have you. But that could be me grasping at straws for wanting an actually cohesive story. Only the next few weeks will tell.

[Shaibana]

quick question: did Rheagal die? :'(

https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aGZoLxG_460s.jpg

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

I've got a friend who's team Cersei now just out of spite for how she thinks the show's going and she feels like Cersei has been the smartest player in the game.

Idk maybe that's a bit much but

I've seen a lot of complaints about the darkness (visual) of the episode and feeling like they couldn't see anything, but I thought that was kind of the point. It was a night shoot, and just like the characters, you have a hard time knowing what's going on when your light has been extinguished and there are hordes of walkers jumping over each other to kill you World War Z style. They slowed the action down during pivotal moments, so you didn't have to stress about "missing a character death". And the parts that were intentionally lit up, the barricade, the blue dragon fire etc really shined.

My favorite part was the last few moments where the piano took over as the main noise and peoples groaning and breathing were the background noise. It's a nice reversal of sound which I appreciated.

I also found the scenes with Viserion double harrowing, not just because of this terrifying dragon chasing people, but because it would also be against his will fighting his brothers. I don't know if when someone "turns" if there's a little part of their consciousness left inside of them, but that would be horrifically sad.

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

Also shoutout to the extras who spend most of their screentime in your peripheral vision but they help to create the feeling that the world is real and full of people.

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[Jinx]

Rhaegal didn't die. He's in a preview for next week. Ghost is there too. I thought Rhaegal died at first, but I was wrong.

I'VE BEEN TEAM CERSEI FOR AWHILE BUT EVEN MORESO NOW

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[Freya]

I feel like they've done the NK narrative the way they have so they can explain so much more with a prequel series..

[Psychotic]

Someone please tell me they share this view and I'm not alone:

I slowly grew to loathe Lyanna Mormont and I'm smurfing glad she's dead. It was a one note joke that was funny the first 3 or 4 times but slowly grew stale, and by the end of it we had this 10 year old with literally no military experience - seriously, even Sansa has more experience of battles than Lyanna - directing a god damn siege defence and takes out a giant. Why? Because she speaks bluntly and the fans loved the sassy child with no actual personality beyond awkwardly delivering truths so the writers pandered. ugh. thank u, next

oh, also, yeah, smurf it, #teamcersei at this point. Other than her faith militant mishap, she's comfortably the most intelligent person on the show and deserves her victory.

[Jinx]

I feel like they've done the NK narrative the way they have so they can explain so much more with a prequel series..

And that's lazy as fuck, and a big fuck you to the fans of the series.


Someone please tell me they share this view and I'm not alone:

I slowly grew to loathe Lyanna Mormont and I'm smurfing glad she's dead. It was a one note joke that was funny the first 3 or 4 times but slowly grew stale, and by the end of it we had this 10 year old with literally no military experience - seriously, even Sansa has more experience of battles than Lyanna - directing a god damn siege defence and takes out a giant. Why? Because she speaks bluntly and the fans loved the sassy child so the writers pandered. ugh. thank u, next

oh, also, yeah, smurf it, #teamcersei at this point. Other than her faith militant mishap, she's comfortably the most intelligent person on the show and deserves her victory.

I'm actually kind of with you on Lyanna Mormont. She was great when she told off Jon and Sansa, then meanmugged Ramsay, then declared Jon King in Da Norf. After that, I wouldn't have minded her being around in scenes or even having lines, but they just turned her into the brat because HAHA BAD ASS KID. I think her actress was great, they just used the schtick a little too much. I think she was very brave, but she should've listened to Jorah and gone down in the crypts, because she was the future of her house, and now it's gone. I like how she went out, though, and thought it was completely bad ass.

[Freya]

I feel like they've done the NK narrative the way they have so they can explain so much more with a prequel series..

And that's lazy as fuck, and a big fuck you to the fans of the series.



Yeah, that's hollywood for you. :gator:

[Denmark]

well i, for one, am glad the night king is dead. he was a wight supremacist, after all

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

Now that we've seen Melisandre's full story, I think it's easier to see why GRRM had previously called her the most or one of the most misunderstood characters.

I think early on a lot of people thought of her as an evil witch, putting leeches on yer boy Gendry or orchestrating the burning of Shireen. And people ascribed these actions to malicious intent, or thought the lord of light was either evil or just an excuse for the actions of a madwoman.

But now it's easier to see she was more of a pragmatist, prioritizing the grand scheme of things over the moral outcomes in the moment. She was genuine in her beliefs. She definitely wasn't infallible, she could only go off what the flames showed her at the time which is a bad wifi connection at best. But I think at this point, in this world, we've seen that the lord of light is real. Early on you might have been able to pass it on as superstition or schizophrenia but now the game is showing its true colors.

Also, she knows I exist and I'll forever be giddy and flying to the moon about it.

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[Jinx]

Carice van Houten was awesome, but I will never like Melisandre because I hate religious fanatics. Beric was annoying too, but he was kind most of the time, so he sort of gets a pass.

[Psychotic]

I don't know, unlike, say, the Faith of the Seven, there's clearly something to this R'hllor business. When it has the power that we've seen it have I can understand being fanatical about it.

[Slothy]

I'm an atheist and if a person resurrects a man I just watched the Hound nearly cut in half by saying a prayer, I might not believe it's an actual god, but I will believe it's capable of some crazy shit I didn't think possible.

[Jinx]

I still don't have to like it.

[Slothy]

Oh I'd fucking hate it. But I'd be less confused about why people get fanatical about it at least. I suppose that's something. Nothing good but maybe slightly less frustrating?

[theundeadhero]

Most people I've seen are upset with how they handled Arya's surprise killing of the Night King, but guess what they're doing with Bronn? How many people have already forgotten he was sent to kill two of our favorites after a week when they couldn't remember Arya was set up to kill the blue eyes five minutes before it happened? The question is whether he will actually do it or get payed double by Tyrion.

(Viserion used bite. You take 47 damage. Viserion used flame attack. It misses. Viserion used claw attack. It super effective! You take 103 damage. Rhaegal withdraws.)

[Freya]

So I was thinking about Melissandre.

She knew she was supposed to be at winterfell but she just didn't understand when. She was there with Stannis, and Jon, and now this. I guess she was like "oh...... okay okay okay... it's this time. I got it."

Lord of Light could be a bit more clear.


Also, watch this montage about theon as it's great.

gOO_JKJDubg

[Lord Golbez]

It's hard to justify Melisandre's actions considering, among other distasteful things, that she was wrong in regard to the specificsm. The Lord of Light being real doesn't actually provide any more justification for her actions. When you come right down to it she still overconfidently assumed that sacrificing a child would be for the benefit of the greater good and it wasn't. She was wrong to present herself as knowing more and stoming Stannis' fanaticism when she didn't know shit.

[Bubba]

It's hard to justify Melisandre's actions considering, among other distasteful things, that she was wrong in regard to the specificsm. The Lord of Light being real doesn't actually provide any more justification for her actions. When you come right down to it she still overconfidently assumed that sacrificing a child would be for the benefit of the greater good and it wasn't. She was wrong to present herself as knowing more and stoming Stannis' fanaticism when she didn't know trout.

I know, it's almost like burning innocent children is something that can't be forgiven.

Unless you're Theon.

[Jinx]

Theon showed remorse and suffered for his actions. Melisandre didn't. Also, Theon even says that just because he didn't kill Bran and Rickon doesn't mean that what he did was in any way less heinous.

Melisandre literally never gave a shit she murdered Shireen and tons of other people lol

[Slothy]

Honestly I think Theon became the character I empathized with the most over the course of the show. He was a dumb little shit who did something really fucking heinous, paid for it in ways worse than anyone should be put through, developed one horrific and justified case of PTSD in a culture with no understanding of it, and still tried to find ways to do better and be a better person even though he thought he was irredeemable. Bran telling him he's a good man gets me right in the feels.

[Jinx]

Tbh, I don't even think him betraying Robb was that out of line. Ned Stark smurfing kidnapped him as a child. Why should he feel particular allegiance to the people literally holding him hostage? :lol:

[Slothy]

Oh yeah I don't think that was crazy out of line. I can't blame him for wanting to be part of his birth family and jumping at the opportunity to please them. It was more murdering those boys that I meant.

[Jinx]

Oh yeah I don't think that was crazy out of line. I can't blame him for wanting to be part of his birth family and jumping at the opportunity to please them. It was more murdering those boys that I meant.

I know you did, and I very much agree with that statement, I'm just throwing it out there: the Starks might have been kind to him, but he really did owe them nothing in the way of loyalty. Ned especially (the show sort of retconned this both from the books, and within the lore of the show itself) always made sure Theon knew he was a hostage, not part of the family.

[Jinx]

AND WHILE WE'RE AT IT

Sansa didn't fucking betray her family. She did not conspire with the Lannisters. She was a little girl who was being manipulated by a woman she looked up to, and even then, tried to gently argue on her father's behalf. The note she wrote to her family was under duress, which WOW it's almost like Catelyn said that same thing immediately. And as soon as Ned was killed, Sansa completely stopped trusting the Lannisters.

I haven't seen anything about that here, but all over the internet I see "Sansa's such a dumb :bou::bou::bou::bou:, she's a traitor to her family". Okay. She was a naive child being held captive. Nothing she did actually affected her family's situation at all. Let it gooooo.

[Psychotic]

Oh yeah I don't think that was crazy out of line. I can't blame him for wanting to be part of his birth family and jumping at the opportunity to please them. It was more murdering those boys that I meant.

I know you did, and I very much agree with that statement, I'm just throwing it out there: the Starks might have been kind to him, but he really did owe them nothing in the way of loyalty. Ned especially (the show sort of retconned this both from the books, and within the lore of the show itself) always made sure Theon knew he was a hostage, not part of the family.I think if Theon himself read your post he'd actually disagree with you and say he did owe the Starks loyalty, and would think so even at the point in the story when he was capturing Winterfell.

Despite Ned's firm parentage, Theon still perceives him as a second father and Robb as his brother. It was always his wish that Ned would marry him to Sansa and truly take him on as his son. While the concept of taking a child hostage is in and of itself horrible, from whatever can be gleaned from his childhood in the books Theon seemed to actually prefer being raised in Winterfell to Pyke. I think Theon felt he owed the Starks something in the way of loyalty, which is why what he did wasn't an easy choice.

One thing the show did so much better than the books - and this is a rare sentence indeed! - was having Theon write that letter to Robb warning him about his father refusing Robb's offer and counselling him to marshall his defences... and then burning it.

It's just an achingly sad story about an unwanted and lost young man who is just craving for love and acceptance. He hurts people he cares about to try to gain it and goes down a truly dark path. I think the philosophy of Stannis is best applied here - the good act doesn't wash out the bad and nor does the bad wash out the good. On a side note, I can't wait to see how Stannis capturing Theon is going to play out in the books - that's a really interesting character pairing that I don't think we saw in the show.

It's a credit to the story that I can empathise with and fully understand why he burned those two young boys and beheaded Sir Rodrik, as abhorrent as it was, and that I can support and root for his attempt at redemption.

[Jinx]

For what it's worth, I just started rereading the series, so I'll have to reflect on my thoughts there. And I always thought Robb wanted to marry Theon to Sansa, not Ned. ANYWAYS.

Yes, that will be an interesting character pairing. Considering Stannis' particular form of justice, he might consider Theon's crimes absolved at this point, strictly from a point of balance.

Regardless my original point that show!Theon deserves redemption and show!Melisandre doesn't is because Theon feels remorse and actively works to do better. Melisandre never feels bad about burning Shireen. At best, she admits that Stannis wasn't Azor Ahai and she made a mistake. What she does during the Battle of Winterfell isn't an act of contrition, but just another part of her religious agenda.

[Freya]

Honestly, there's so much I'd like to see that's different. Like yeah, Stannis is still very much alive in the books. We don't know if he even has an end or not in the story. So I'm a bit excited to see what they do with everyone.

The show is its own thing, I mean it has been from the beginning. So I kinda hate being like "but in the books!" cause they only ever have been more loose in their comparisons. Like the whole Catelyn arc. Hell just the general lack of Wolves and warging the show has. They're really their own thing so I don't like being like "but this one point in the books said XYZ" cause they said xyz a lot and we are way past xyz

[Jinx]

REREAD MY LAST PARAGRAPH YOU GRAPE

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

Happy Star Wars weekend my dudes.

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[Bubba]

I’d just like to ask the father of the two farm boys whether he feels Theon deserves redemption... and yes, I am going to pull the father card here... if anyone burned and killed your child/children then you might feel a tad different.

I appreciate the lengths Theon has gone to do good since ‘sausagegate’ but he deserved to die and I’m glad he’s dead.

Edit: Also, why was Theon protecting Bran/TER from all those wights when the NK needed him for non-fighty/touchy-feely time??

[Jinx]

Considering those two farm boys were orphans, probably their father didn’t have much of an opinion of if they died or not.

Re: the father card
If your son was stolen from you at the age of 5, you might be more understanding towards him turning into kind of a trouthead.

[Psychotic]

I’d just like to ask the father of the two farm boys whether he feels Theon deserves redemption... I appreciate we're talking about the show here, but interestingly in the book the father of those two boys is... Theon. (or at least strongly implied if not outright stated) Which of course makes it all the more monstrous.

[Bubba]

Re: the father card
If your son was stolen from you at the age of 5, you might be more understanding towards him turning into kind of a trouthead.

Understanding, yes. Forgiving? No.

[Slothy]

I’d just like to ask the father of the two farm boys whether he feels Theon deserves redemption... and yes, I am going to pull the father card here... if anyone burned and killed your child/children then you might feel a tad different.

There's a difference between justice and vengeance. Parents usually want the latter and not the former. Therefore I don't actually care about the parents thoughts on what sort of punishment is justified.

The torture he went through alone was worse than death would have been and he still had to live with the extreme trauma for years after. And since I firmly believe the goal of any system of justice should be to rehabilitate, I'm totally fine with a largely rehabilitated Theon at the end not being further punished for a crime he's largely suffered enough for already.

And no argument from emotions will ever change my mind on this for the record. Someone who actively works toward redeeming themselves and is plainly a changed human being in every way that really matters is always deserving of a second chance and forgiveness in my eyes.

And while I don't and never will have children, if I did I wouldn't want to be the person deciding how their killer is punished. I know I wouldn't be capable of executing justice and I refuse to become a murderer solely because someone I loved was murdered. Rationally I'd rather see someone redeemed and I'd rather other people continue to pursue that goal when I have experienced things that may render me incapable or unlikely of doing it myself.

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

Speaking of popular artists making music for the show, I remember a few years ago now when iTunes had something like "Catch the Thrones: The Mixtape" and had things like Snoop Dogg rapping about the Lannisters. The first few seconds of each song tend to be dialogue from the show.

A few of my personal favorites from that one:

Mastodon - White Walkers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK4WYmTOjdI

Self explanatory. Also cool to listen to this season.

Killswitch Engage - Loyalty
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNz0V6cwSlE

A song for the unbowed, unbent, unbroken. Kicks total ass and is worth listening to 24 hours a day 365 days of the year.

[Jinx]

Major plot points from tonight's episode were leaked. Whew lads.

[Freya]

Video out for one of the songs

IfCuarZqJzM

[Jinx]

Let us all mourn for the saddest death of the series: the possibility of a Jaime and Brienne relationship.

[Freya]

The rhaegal loss got me more than Messandei. It was such a surprise. I legit squealed in horror. Honestly, meh to messandei's death. I was never too attached to her.

Also, they should all listen to Sansa more.


Also wtf, Ghost had legit wounds, messing an ear even, and they just like "he's going to live with uncle Torumnd"

[Jinx]

Tormund will treat him better than Jon ever has. >:( Also, I get the feeling this will be the last we see of Tormund, if not a small scene in the epilogue, which makes sense narratively. It's fine, he's gonna go back to doign whatever the fuck it is Tormund does and have adventures with his kick ass new dog.

How are you feeling with the death of Gendrya? Shippers on suicide watch tonight.

[Vermachtnis]

There's a sad dog all over Twitter.

[Freya]

I mean, I get it. But poor gendry. He was so excited and she just nopes.

Guy cant catch a break. Gets legitimized and still cant make a girl date him.

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

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[Psychotic]

That look Daenerys gave Jon though.

Emilia Clarke has taken a lot of shit for her dead eyes but god damn if they weren't perfect for that scene wow

[WarZidane]

Those northerners sure are ahead of the rest of Westeros when it comes to some things.

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[Fox]

Winterfell is a major city, it's normal to have a Starbucks on every street.

[Psychotic]

I have to admire Sansa's dedication to the "Men in my family die when they go South" line. Men in your family also die when you reveal their closest secrets to the Lannisters, so let's hope you've learned your less... oh. oh no but sansa you're the smartest person arya knows

Also what the hell is this sudden squeamishness when it comes to collateral damage? It's a smurfing war, it's shit but it's not madness either. How many innocent smallfolk died in the Riverlands (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcPXTO5cUqw) because of the Stark v Lannister war you engineered, Varys (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJHwZ5HWMnY)? Come on, dude, your hands aren't any cleaner. Daenerys isn't going to go around killing random people but oh she's mad because... idk? i guess she got a funny look in her eye? In Westeros, the worst thing she's done was to burn the Tarlys and that wasn't really a black-and-white issue.

[Jinx]

I think the problem is what Dany's message has always been. She's always spoken of saving the smallfolk from tyrants; if she starts willfully burning people, she's a complete hypocrite. Her entire reason d'etre for taking the throne is gone. Also, keep in mind--there's still a shit ton of wildfire below King's Landing. If she attacks the wrong part, the whole fucking thing goes up. Very likely she isn't condemning some innocent people, but the one million that is said to live there. It only took 3 little candles to bring down Baelor's Sept and a giant portion of the city.

I guess when you hold yourself to a higher standard, and use it for your claim, people expect you to stick to that standard? Of course, Daenerys has always deluded herself about her own morals. She aligns herself with slavers, rapists, child killers, and the like, so she's never been a good person. I'll say this: since she no longer has a birthright claim to the throne (and hasn't since Robert took it, don't @ me), right of conquest is the only thing going for her. But it just goes against everything she's always preached about.

Varys is the only one with a moral fucking conscience right now.

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

The shortened seasons were a mistake.

Even if you have to create some other small side plot to pad some time, let's find a way to get Grey Worm and Missandei more than 3 seconds of screentime together, or have Jon and Dany not fall in love over a period of like 3 episodes, or have Jon actually spend time with his wolf, or have a solo White Walker episode like Westworld did for the Ghost Nation tribe. It's not like they're following a blueprint anymore.

Shout out to the new prince of Dorne who was mentioned just so the show could say "we totally remember that place exists, right?"

They're really gonna do Ghost like that? Your boy is MISSING AN EAR and you can't console him at all? smurf it, he'd be happier north of the wall surrounded by nothing.


this show has a really bad problem of reminding you direwolves exist right before killing them or making them disappear forever.

So this aged well.

Btw is there some sort of stalemate rule or something when the Hands come together to discuss terms? Dany shows up to the front gates of King's Landing with like 12 unsullied and after it goes sour they're just allowed to leave I guess?

[Shaibana]

How are you feeling with the death of Gendrya? Shippers on suicide watch tonight.

i never expected them to ever become an actuall couple, and it seems i was right.

arya will never yield to a domestic life

[Lord Golbez]

Shout out to the new prince of Dorne who was mentioned just so the show could say "we totally remember that place exists, right?"

Uh no. That was just to add details to the strategy meeting not remind us Dorne exists. They could have said the Duchess of Dollet for all it matters, but it makes more sense to mention places that have actually been established as existing in the world.

[Freya]

I have to admire Sansa's dedication to the "Men in my family die when they go South" line. Men in your family also die when you reveal their closest secrets to the Lannisters, so let's hope you've learned your less... oh. oh no but sansa you're the smartest person arya knows


Yeah. She doesn't like Dany. She knows this info will do a lot of damage. So she told the one person she knew and trusted that it would spread where it should to undermine her.

[Jinx]

Shout out to the new prince of Dorne who was mentioned just so the show could say "we totally remember that place exists, right?"

Uh no. That was just to add details to the strategy meeting not remind us Dorne exists. They could have said the Duchess of Dollet for all it matters, but it makes more sense to mention places that have actually been established as existing in the world.

It wasn't either of those things. It was basically just D&D saying "shut up, we know we created a stupid plot and a power vacuum, here, let's have an unnamed random new prince in Dorne so you'll shut up".

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

Oof the hyperbole didn't track. Lol do you think I literally meant we forgot about Dorne?

I basically meant that they mentioned Dorne and since there's 2 episodes left they probably aren't going to do anything with that information.

Do you think if we're lucky, there's wildfire underneath this thread?

[Jinx]

If we're lucky, there's wildfire in the HBO home offices and we don't have to see the shit ending.

Btw, the rest of the season has been leaked (not the episodes, but the plot points) MONTHS ago and no one thought it was real until yesterday's episode confirmed it. It's really bad.


really


really


REALLY

bad

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

Shout out to the new prince of Dorne who was mentioned just so the show could say "we totally remember that place exists, right?"

Uh no. That was just to add details to the strategy meeting not remind us Dorne exists. They could have said the Duchess of Dollet for all it matters, but it makes more sense to mention places that have actually been established as existing in the world.

It wasn't either of those things. It was basically just D&D saying "shut up, we know we created a stupid plot and a power vacuum, here, let's have an unnamed random new prince in Dorne so you'll shut up".

None of these are really contradictory btw

Me: The show brought up Dorne to put a bow on a plotline that's done going anywhere.

Golbez: It added details to the meeting

Jinx: The showrunners done goofed etc

It all seems legit tbh :grover:

[Psychotic]

I have to admire Sansa's dedication to the "Men in my family die when they go South" line. Men in your family also die when you reveal their closest secrets to the Lannisters, so let's hope you've learned your less... oh. oh no but sansa you're the smartest person arya knows


Yeah. She doesn't like Dany. She knows this info will do a lot of damage. So she told the one person she knew and trusted that it would spread where it should to undermine her.You know how Sansa looks up to Cersei as a god? So let's ask, what would Cersei do? Well, remember how Cersei planned to let the monsters fight each other - to great effect? That's what Sansa should do before playing this card, let Daenerys and Cersei duke it out and then press Jon's claim to mop up afterwards. Otherwise she just painted a big bullseye on Jon's back for both Cersei and Daenerys and you're risking a three way conflict where you hold the smallest force. Or maybe just let your beloved family member not be a king of anything just like he wants idk

Although I don't know why I'm saying any of this. In S8 GoT there's no negative consequences to doing anything really, strategy is non existent and the Stark girls are infallible.

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

The realization you come to when the imp knows your queen's pregnant but he hasn't talked to her since before you had sex.

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[Bubba]

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[Slothy]

The realization you come to when the imp knows your queen's pregnant but he hasn't talked to her since before you had sex.

76203

Did literally just talk to the guy who confirmed the pregnancy though. I'm not sure which one he's smart/dumb enough to think is right. Or if he'd even give that much of a shit if he did know. Other than, you know, she'd totally kill him once they win and as far as anyone knows is having his child so - fuck I'm getting down a rabbit hole and I am too high for this shit right now.

[The Captain]

Once again logic goes right out the window, specifically in three spots for me:

How did Bronn just walk into Winterfell and find Jaime and Tyrion like that? I get it that everyone is mostly off drinking and pairing off but he's carrying a Lannister crossbow for crying out loud. Those guards at the Winterfell gate really are the worst.

Were those spears heat seeking? Three direct shots, one right into the neck from what looked like an angle behind a mountain range? Euron might give the Splash Brothers a run for their money in shooting percentage.

Why didn't Cersei just shoot Tyrion and the rest of the about two dozen people at her gates, including the final dragon? She's already blown up like half the city, but now she's following some sort of formal rules of combat?



My endgame prediction now is that I think Dany does indeed burn the city down and she ultimately is betrayed by Tyrion, who joins Jaime as being a slayer of rulers. Or maybe Jon does it? Could he finally find a bit of guile? And can Ghost please get a happy ending somewhere warm!

Ironically, these warp speed episodes make me even more interested to read the books when they are finished. (Assuming they are, either by GRRM or his estate).

Take care all.

[Bubba]

It would have taken 10-15 seconds for Jon just to go over and give Ghost a little oooshabooboodo smoooshie ruffle-of-the-head-aroo. But no, he just f**ks off. I know we've debated Theon's path to redemption but there is simply no way back for Jon after this. I hope he dies horribly.

I actually forgot about fortune teller that Cersei visits who predicts she'll be "...queen for a time. Then comes another, younger, more beautiful, to cast you down and take all you hold dear." I know that prophecies aren't always fulfilled but...

Also, Missandei's death clearly spells the end for Greyworm. Thinking back to SPT's prophecy that "Neither can live while the other survives"... It's a foregone conclusion.

[Aulayna]

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[Jinx]

And why, after hitting Rhaegal 3 times in a row, did 30 fucking scorpions miss Daenerys point blank?

Yeah, Cersei could've ended the war right there. Daenerys has never been anything without her dragons, and Drogon was literally just chilling on the ground.

Grey Worm isn't dying. He has to take Missandei's remains back to Naath and fulfill his promise to her about protecting her people. He's living.

[Shaibana]

https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aA3NOD2_700b.jpg

couple minutes later:
https://img-comment-fun.9cache.com/media/a5eENwr/a76wK0eG_700w_0.jpg

[Bubba]

I know Yara doesn't have a huge resource, but I can't see her staying at the Iron Islands while it all kicks off. I'm hoping she can show up late and take out pound shop Jack Sparrow. The guy is devoid of all charm.

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

Grey Worm isn't dying. He has to take Missandei's remains back to Naath and fulfill his promise to her about protecting her people. He's living.

This is what I want.

As many times in this show as people have died for someone, I'd like some more bittersweet moments of people having to live for someone.

[Del Murder]

Trying to cram about 30 episodes of content (at the show's usual pacing) into 6 is showing. I liked the first two episodes with all the reunions and didn't mind the night battle. Some people did stupid things but that always happens in GoT. Arya's moment was fantastic. I also always thought the white walker angle was less interesting compared to the politics. This most recent episode was really bad, though, for too many reasons to list. I can't think of a single person who was not idiotic in this episode except perhaps The Hound or Tormund. I don't have much hope for the two episode wrap up to all this but I could be surprised! Maybe Arya will dash out of a corner and stab Cersei as well.

[Psychotic]

I agree, I have absolutely no issue with characters making poor or stupid decisions. In fact, I welcome it. GoT's best moments have come from characters making poor decisions - Ned, Robb, Stannis and Oberyn. My issue with it is that, other than Daenerys who is being absolutely shafted, nobody else is experiencing negative consequences of stupid decisions. In fact, those characters are still being praised for being smart and sneering at other characters for being dumb! (hi Tyrion and Sansa)

I don't think it's a coincidence that Daenerys has been the most interesting and enjoyable character this season. She's the reason to watch the show and I'm excited to see what she does now.

[Jinx]

I don't think it's a coincidence that Daenerys has been the most interesting and enjoyable character this season. She's the reason to watch the show and I'm excited to see what she does now.

https://i.imgur.com/ilEgAQC.gif

[Psychotic]

Mate that Daenerys crazy eyes trout at Jon and then Cersei was the business I'm not having it

[Jinx]

Did anyone noticed that this episode she started wearing a cravat? Probably in memory of the late great Jorah Mormont. :(

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

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[Jinx]

YOU'RE NOT MY REAL DAD

[Shaibana]

https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aVY4YOd_460s.jpg

[Jinx]

this show is so fucking garbage lol

death list coming soon

[Freya]

Nah, I figure this is the thing the books will do too.

Mad queen and all that. But hey, we got cleganebowl?

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

Oh.

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[Denmark]

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/449/977/aba.gif

what's a redemption arc

[Del Murder]

In one of those pool thingies I said the Iron Throne would melt in the end. Lookin' good for me!

[Psychotic]

That was horrible and brutal. Full respect goes to the stunt people, visual effects teams and the actors and actresses. They did not pull their punches! And for everyone who wanted Cersei to get hers as King's Landing falls - hell, people who have wanted it since Joffrey - this is what that looks like. Cute and cuddly Northmen rapists, sweet lil Grey Worm the murderer, Dothraki running down fleeing women and children. I hope you enjoyed it!

I wish we'd seen more of Daenerys in that episode. As in, actually saw her reactions to stuff rather than as a WMD. Maybe the words of Viserys, Jon, Jorah, Missandei ("Dracarys!") echoing in her head like in the previously on bit. Maybe cackling maniacally. Shrieking "BURN THEM ALL!".

I don't think they did quite enough of a good job to make her change from this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM7jhG-9yQM to the Mad Queen seem entirely believable. Like, the straw that broke the camel's back was Jon not putting out? Come on, don't be doing her dirty like that.

I agree that the Jaime bit was the worst. He needs a final boss so let's give him Euron! ughhhhh. No. Valonqar? What's that?

I liked Arya's bit though. "I'm gonna kill the queen :smug:" and not only failing but actually experiencing consequences? Thank you! I'm even feeling generous about deus ex horse right now.

[Lord Golbez]

I don't really feel like Cersei got what was coming to her. I feel like she got off easily. Also, I wanted Arya to kill her. That's kind of been my main investment in the show, so kind of disappointed.

[Loony BoB]

Well, I wasn't really amazed or disappointed with that episode. I mean it was awesome to watch it play out and overall Idrsay I'm satisfied with what happened. Will be interesting to see how Dany plays out in the final episode.

[Freya]

I wish we'd seen more of Daenerys in that episode. As in, actually saw her reactions to stuff rather than as a WMD. Maybe the words of Viserys, Jon, Jorah, Missandei ("Dracarys!") echoing in her head like in the previously on bit. Maybe cackling maniacally. Shrieking "BURN THEM ALL!".
I dunno. I kinda liked the perspective e from the common people. It made if feel more of a horrible thing she was doing. I think if we focused on her more, youd get some of that there empathies and maybe wouldnt have been as horrified about her actions.


I agree that the Jaime bit was the worst. He needs a final boss so let's give him Euron! ughhhhh. No. Valonqar? What's that?
Yeah the euron bit was dumb. Agreed.


I liked Arya's bit though. "I'm gonna kill the queen :smug:" and not only failing but actually experiencing consequences? Thank you! I'm even feeling generous about deus ex horse right now.

"Death rides a pale horse."

[WarZidane]

All the inconsistencies at this point are amusing but the size of Dany's army has to be the best one, from "half the Dothraki" miraculously surviving Winterfell to the next episode preview having a bigger army than she had this episode.

[Night Fury]

Visually appealing and well shot episode, terrible storytelling.

1 episode left.

I do think of the last of our main bunch, Davos would make a wonderful King. He’s never wanted it, or had a stake in it. He’s always been a moral character, and has observed so much of the happenings - witnessed the downfall of Stannis, resurrection of Jon, death of the Night King, and the madness of Dany. That’s a lot of things to witness and still be as firm as he is. Sadly, this will never happen.

I think a joint rulership of Bran/Sansa with Arya killing Dany and she and Jon heading north of the wall, just generally escaping politics.

I hope Tyrion survives, and is a better hand to Sansa than he has been shown to be to Dany.

Mixed feelings on Jamie/Cersei. I think it’s apt that they died as a tower collapsed on them, after they both started it by pushing someone from a tower. That said, the show has spent all this time redeeming Jamie, and while normally I’m a fan of a rug pull - this felt.... very unsatisfying indeed.

[Bri]

Ugh, last night's episode was utterly distasteful, that is all

[Shaibana]

yeah im not buying the ´mad queen danearys´ either.
the change from Misa to this is just... to great.

it was a visually stunning episode tho.

10/10 either Jon or Dany dies next episode
https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/an98Dgb_700b.jpg

[Freya]

Daenerys: When my dragons are grown we will take back what was stolen from me. We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground.

People: yaaasssss

Daenerys: I will take what is mine through fire and blood.

People: yaaassss

Daenerys: *does all that*

People: What? Why? This is bad writing!

like she even says, the slaves freed themselves and rose up against their tyrants. The people at kings landing did not. So in her mind, they weren't innocent. Like it's not really a big surprise she rained fire from the sky. Was it right? No, bitch be cray. But she's been cray for a while. We just were okay with her cray before because of who she was going against. Who legitimately walks into a funeral pyre and isn't crazy?! She didn't know she was going to survive it, she just walked into it. She was unphased at her brother being murdered. She was okay with the crazy barbarian Dothraki. She burned all their leaders cause she didn't want to deal with their culture. Her advisors were who kept her in check, specifically Jorah. But he's gone. They're all gone.

[WarZidane]

I feel like people take more issue with the breakneck pace of it than the fact she made her daddy proud. Dany 3 episodes ago maybe would have burnt the red keep without any real regard for civilians, but she wouldn't have gone "burninate all the women and children first". And yes things happened between those two points in time, but they happened too fast because they're clearly just wrapping this show up as soon as they can (probably so they can move on to other deals they've already made, like a Star Wars trilogy).

I'm also amused by the ineffectiveness of the scorpions against Drogon, less than a full episode after they annihilate Rhaegal. Plot armor giveth and plot armor taketh away. :p

[Freya]

Eh not really, You see she went high and low on drogon, as well as moving quickly, this time. And if it was truly a "caught off guard" moment with Rhaegal, they really didn't see them (although I am still meh on that) but if they didn't, they could easily aim at an obvious path the dragons are taking vs one that is moving in ways intentionally difficult for them.

[Psychotic]

Daenerys: When my dragons are grown we will take back what was stolen from me. We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground.

People: yaaasssss

Daenerys: I will take what is mine through fire and blood.

People: yaaassss

Daenerys: *does all that*

People: What? Why? This is bad writing!


Daenerys: I am not here to be queen of the ashes.

People: yaaasssss

Daenerys: we will bring peace back to Westeros

People: yaaasssss

Daenerys: Together we will leave the world a better place than we found it.

People: yaaasssss

Daenerys: we will save this country from those who would destroy it.

People: yaaasssss

Daenerys: I know what Cersei has told you: that I have come to destroy your cities, burn down your homes, murder you and orphan your children. That's Cersei Lannister, not me. I'm not here to murder, and all I want to destroy is the wheel that has rolled over everyone both rich and poor, to the benefit of no-one but the Cersei Lannisters of the world.

People: yaaasssss

Jon Snow: I never thought that dragons would exist again. No one did. The people who follow you know that you made something impossible happen. Maybe that helps them believe that you can make other impossible things happen. Build a different world from the trout one they've always known. But if you use them to melt castles and burn cities, you're not different...you're just more of the same.

Daenerys: yaaasssss... actually nah i'm mad now lol

[Freya]

RQ9QQMXTftY

Goes into a lot of the technical making of the episode.

[Freya]

Daenerys: When my dragons are grown we will take back what was stolen from me. We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground.

People: yaaasssss

Daenerys: I will take what is mine through fire and blood.

People: yaaassss

Daenerys: *does all that*

People: What? Why? This is bad writing!


Daenerys: I am not here to be queen of the ashes.

People: yaaasssss

Daenerys: we will bring peace back to Westeros

People: yaaasssss

Daenerys: Together we will leave the world a better place than we found it.

People: yaaasssss

Daenerys: we will save this country from those who would destroy it.

People: yaaasssss

Daenerys: I know what Cersei has told you: that I have come to destroy your cities, burn down your homes, murder you and orphan your children. That's Cersei Lannister, not me. I'm not here to murder, and all I want to destroy is the wheel that has rolled over everyone both rich and poor, to the benefit of no-one but the Cersei Lannisters of the world.

People: yaaasssss

Jon Snow: I never thought that dragons would exist again. No one did. The people who follow you know that you made something impossible happen. Maybe that helps them believe that you can make other impossible things happen. Build a different world from the trout one they've always known. But if you use them to melt castles and burn cities, you're not different...you're just more of the same.

Daenerys: yaaasssss... actually nah i'm mad now lol

Yeah, when she had people reacting to those things, a cheerleading squad even. She had people telling her "hey maybe we shouldn't murder all the Masters, it could go bad...." then you know, it did.

Then all her close people died.

And those who didn't, they betrayed her. So, time for ya know, doing what she knows best, burning and killing everyone.

:gator:

It's not a surprise and has been building for some time in very clear and obvious ways directly spoken by her character, that people just dismissed cause her troutty actions were against "baddies".


That all said, I think Emilia Clarke's acting has been great this season with this descent.

[Psychotic]

Sure, she killed all the Masters* but she didn't kill all the slaves. She didn't respond to the "Mhysa!" cries with "Dracarys!"

*this underplays her Meereen arc. She actually worked very hard for peace, making compromises like opening the pits and marrying Hizdahr. If, after the initial revenge crucifixion, you think she went on a murder spree then you misremember. The Harpy broke the peace, not Dany.

[Del Murder]

Maybe she actually is insane, so she can say things and mean them and then go do the opposite. Her father was likely suffering from mental disability and the inbreeding of that family doesn't help at all. Like Frekana said, half her advisors died and the other half betrayed her trust. That could certainly cause a mentally unstable person to snap. I'm not sure they set up the insane angle well especially after 7 seasons of building up her resistance to it, but a mental disability would explain everything. But like most things this season, everything is at a rapid pace because time is running out.

[Freya]

Sure, she killed all the Masters* but she didn't kill all the slaves. She didn't respond to the "Mhysa!" cries with "Dracarys!"

*this underplays her Meereen arc. She actually worked very hard for peace, making compromises like opening the pits and marrying Hizdahr. If, after the initial revenge crucifixion, you think she went on a murder spree then you misremember. The Harpy broke the peace, not Dany.

Because she had people advising and guiding her then. She had people who needed saving and were saved and were thankful for that. People didn't need saved in Westeros, not from tyrants at least just supernatural. There were no slaves to feel as if she was "Mhysa!". The people were free and for the most part, most the time, they didn't get hurt just living their lives.

[Psychotic]

She's never needed advisors to show mercy. In the Mhysa scene all her advisors are like "whoa chill out they're dangerous" and she ignores them to see the people. And in S1 before she had any advisors at all, her mercy for the Lhazareen - not slaves who needed freeing by the way - got Khal Drogo killed. Half her advisors are dead so now she murders smallfolk just doesn't wash.

Also free people living their lives and therefore they can die doesn't really gel with her oft stated "the wheel is rolling over and crushing the people" metaphor. And, you know, literally every depiction of peasants in the show, all the way from Mycah the Butcher's Boy onwards. That is one of the heaviest themes of the series. Why is it always the innocents who suffer when you high lords play your game of thrones?

[Freya]

She's never needed advisors to show mercy. In the Mhysa scene all her advisors are like "whoa chill out they're dangerous" and she ignores them to see the people. And in S1 before she had any advisors at all, her mercy for the Lhazareen - not slaves who needed freeing by the way - got Khal Drogo killed. Half her advisors are dead so now she murders smallfolk just doesn't wash.

Also free people living their lives and therefore they can die doesn't really gel with her oft stated "the wheel is rolling over and crushing the people" metaphor. And, you know, literally every depiction of peasants in the show, all the way from Mycah the Butcher's Boy onwards. That is one of the heaviest themes of the series. Why is it always the innocents who suffer when you high lords play your game of thrones?
Probably this part:

Maybe she actually is insane, so she can say things and mean them and then go do the opposite. Her father was likely suffering from mental disability and the inbreeding of that family doesn't help at all. Like Frekana said, half her advisors died and the other half betrayed her trust. That could certainly cause a mentally unstable person to snap. I'm not sure they set up the insane angle well especially after 7 seasons of building up her resistance to it, but a mental disability would explain everything. But like most things this season, everything is at a rapid pace because time is running out.

[Psychotic]

I think her arc has been building to this, don't get me wrong. But if she starts at point A back in Pentos and point G is the Mad Queen burning King's Landing, it feels like we've gone A-B-C-D-G. And okay, I get it, and it's kind of fun, but it just didn't feel quite right. Maybe the reduced number of episodes in the final seasons has contributed to this issue. I hope the books do her story justice and I have a lot of faith in GRRM (for all I make fun of his food descriptions!) that he can pull it off.

[Del Murder]

It feels like D was when she brought all her armies and dragons to the north to help with the white walkers, which was only three episodes ago and a culmination of 7 seasons. So going EFG in two episodes just doesn't work.

I also question how mad she really needed to be. I get punishing your enemies even after they surrendered, but burning the entire city to the ground and chasing down obviously fleeing peasants goes further than vengeance to truly psychopathic levels. I think her vengeful nature was shown all throughout the series but I never got the sense that she was a psychopath.

It's hard to imagine Martin would take the books in a completely different direction than this given that he has still been involved with the show, but I hope he has the time and discipline to write it better than what we are getting now.

[Aulayna]

Even though it's probably a given at this point, I really hope Arya isn't the one to kill Dany. I'm so bored of Arya's character at this point.

(And yes I was down with her shanking the Night King)

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

This show kind of feels like Xenogears.

Disc 1 (season 1 through 6) was a full fledged game with exploration.

Disc 2 (season 7 and 8) rotated between text dumps and boss fights.

Most would pretty much agree that the shortened seasons were a colossal mistake. That being said, Xenogears is still pretty damn good.

If you were on board for like 65 of 73 episodes but you're miffed they didn't stick the landing, it's still a pretty good show overall.

People who want to retroactively act like it was "just okay" the whole time are totally disingenuous.

If you want to complain about a dumpster fire you're more than welcome to join me in The Walking Dead thread.

[Slothy]

Pointing out Dany's big talk about wanting to save everyone does not change the fact that she has spent every season consistently being as brutal towards anyone who crosses her as every tyrant she claims to be against. And she did not get better about this as the seasons went on. She was consistently just barely held back from her worst tendencies by her trusted advisors and by the end she had none of those left and was blatantly succumbing to her paranoia all season and she'd finally had enough of holding back.

This is as surprising as snow in a Canadian winter (Vancouver not included).

[WarZidane]

This show kind of feels like Xenogears.

Disc 1 (season 1 through 6) was a full fledged game with exploration.

Disc 2 (season 7 and 8) rotated between text dumps and boss fights.

Most would pretty much agree that the shortened seasons were a colossal mistake. That being said, Xenogears is still pretty damn good.

If you were on board for like 65 of 73 episodes but you're miffed they didn't stick the landing, it's still a pretty good show overall.

People who want to retroactively act like it was "just okay" the whole time are totally disingenuous.

If you want to complain about a dumpster fire you're more than welcome to join me in The Walking Dead thread.

While this is true, expect a very vocal chunk of people to not see it this way. See also: Mass Effect 3 and LOST :p

[Loony BoB]

For all those going on about how her advisors betrayed her, I'd say she is betraying her advisors (and people) just as often. The moment she found out that Jon was the true king, she could have done so many things but she simply instead chose to be power hungry and consider people demons for trying to protect the people. I can understand considering Varys sending out letters to let the people know the truth to be a betrayal, but he only did so because she made it clear she would happily burn down the entire city, women and children included, rather than wait a little while for her own forces to be ready for a battle, let alone lay siege. She chose for the fast route and she showed she was not willing to consider helping the people. The moment that happened, she betrayed all the advisors she ever had as far as I'm concerned. She was no longer the queen they had been promised.

[Freya]

Oh for sure they really didn't betray her, I mean maybe varys. But she THINKS they did. All she's cared about is becoming queen of the iron throne. Jon's claim throws a wrench in that and to question it is to betray her, in her mind.

Her focus has been on her title, not so much the people. The people she's saved have all been a means to an end I think, that end being the rule of the seven kingdoms. I mentioned it before but she's a conqueror, not a ruler.

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

Yesterday's episode was a huge loss for Cersei fans. It cost her life, her unborn child, it even coster Waldau.

[Raistlin]

I agree with Psychotic. I'm actually fine with all of the major plot points from last episode; the show has just done an awful job of executing them with good storytelling.

It just felt like Dany needed some other push. A coworker and I were talking about how we expected Jaime and Cersei to pull of some sort of trick, where the bells ringing would only be a pretend surrender/surprise attack. Or just some more time spent on seeing Dany's descent. Or maybe some flashbacks in Dany's mind of Cersei and Missandei or even Jorah (whose death she could emotionally blame on Cersei after she didn't send the promised aid). It just needed something more for the storytelling to pull me in more and make it seem more believable. I agree that this has been set up for a good while; the last execution was just very poor.

Jaime's return-to-form was also just dissatisfying in presentation. Maybe Brienne needed to die in the Battle of Winterfell to trigger this. Or just something more then "I'm going to King's Landing, bye now."

The writing has been pretty terrible this season (particularly the last three episodes) in the show's breakneck pace to finish everything. I think it's a bit more disorienting because that's the exact opposite way most shows die; nowadays, shows tend to drag on forever as long as they're making money, well past their best years. Instead, this last season especially, all development is tossed out the window, and without GRRM scripting all of his trademark brutal slayings, deus ex machina has protected all of the high-end main characters to a ridiculous degree more similar to... well, most other TV.

[Lord Golbez]

"Death rides a pale horse."

This is a common misconception on the color of the horse Death rides. Another one of the horsemen rides a white horse. That's not the color meant by "pale." Death's horse is actually green.

[Freya]

Jaime's return-to-form was also just dissatisfying in presentation. Maybe Brienne needed to die in the Battle of Winterfell to trigger this. Or just something more then "I'm going to King's Landing, bye now."


Honestly I actually find this to.be the most realistic conclusion. I'm assuming most of you have never been in a toxic/abusive relationship or known someone who has. When it came to "my love is going to die" this was a pretty obvious choice to make if you think of jaime like that.

Jaime going back made sense. Jaime fighting stupid euron did not.





"Death rides a pale horse."

This is a common misconception on the color of the horse Death rides. Another one of the horsemen rides a white horse. That's not the color meant by "pale." Death's horse is actually green.

Yes I'm sure the quote from revelations 6:8 is entirely a misconception and not where the quote is pulled from. It's a motif throughout history and media. At some point, a pale, white or grey horse becomes synonymous with it. Sorry.

And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.

[Jinx]

I agree with Psychotic. I'm actually fine with all of the major plot points from last episode; the show has just done an awful job of executing them with good storytelling.

It just felt like Dany needed some other push. A coworker and I were talking about how we expected Jaime and Cersei to pull of some sort of trick, where the bells ringing would only be a pretend surrender/surprise attack. Or just some more time spent on seeing Dany's descent. Or maybe some flashbacks in Dany's mind of Cersei and Missandei or even Jorah (whose death she could emotionally blame on Cersei after she didn't send the promised aid). It just needed something more for the storytelling to pull me in more and make it seem more believable. I agree that this has been set up for a good while; the last execution was just very poor.

Jaime's return-to-form was also just dissatisfying in presentation. Maybe Brienne needed to die in the Battle of Winterfell to trigger this. Or just something more then "I'm going to King's Landing, bye now."

The writing has been pretty terrible this season (particularly the last three episodes) in the show's breakneck pace to finish everything. I think it's a bit more disorienting because that's the exact opposite way most shows die; nowadays, shows tend to drag on forever as long as they're making money, well past their best years. Instead, this last season especially, all development is tossed out the window, and without GRRM scripting all of his trademark brutal slayings, deus ex machina has protected all of the high-end main characters to a ridiculous degree more similar to... well, most other TV.


literally just this

friendly reminder that the targaryens haven't been the true king or queen of shit in like 25 years

[Jinx]

-ikUYFK84OQ

[Freya]

Wrote this up to explain to a friend on fb. Seems like some of you may need it too :stare::

So she gets to westeros feeling like she's hot trout after all her conquests and is like, let me burn this evil lady's trout down. And all her advisers are like nooooo do it this other way. and by doing it that way, she has lost a majority of said advisors and supporters. Finally, she was like, no i'ma burninate, and it worked in her favor so she's questioning what the hell her advisors even said and learning that burninating is the better option here.

So, Jon goes "hey there are undead" and she goes "okay but cersei wont stop while we deal." So Tyrion says, well it'll work, just do it.

So they go on an adventure to get a wight, and she ends up losing one of her babies :(

That's okay though because they present it to cersei and cersei agrees to help. Tyrion was right. She deserved to trust his judgment. The death wasn't a useless sacrifice.

Until it is, because she doesn't show up. The first death WAS useless and now she has to fight her undead baby. They nearly all die because they didn't have help. Both her babies NEARLY die. The one person who has supported her and came back each time she got mad and sent him away, dies because of this. So she's mad. This bitch, how dare she. And these northerners? They don't care she just did all this for them. Lost all of this for them. They think jon was the best, even though she saved their asses with her fire breathing dragons and her armies that are mostly gone now. They don't even bother coming to thank her.

So she's like "this bitch, f this bitch, i'ma go back home and f this bi---" and she's caught off guard and this bitch kills her other child and kidnaps her bestie.

So tyrion pleads to her that he can get cersei to stop, so he tries and cersei cuts off her besties head. So now tyrion has failed her twice, managed to help get her children killed, her lead advisor/protector killed, and her bestie with his poor advice over this woman. Then she finds out her other advisor also is conspiring against her and it's implied he was literally trying to poison her at the beginning of the episode.

So Jon comes in and is "i love you" but then doesn't actually show that affection so she's like well smurf it. Everyone hates me so might as well make them really hate me.

So the bells are ringing, she's staring at this red keep. The people are surrendering, just like they did for her father, just like they are doing for cersei. There's no loyalty with them, the people don't care. Jon's claim would still cause people to question. So she decides, well fear it is. Even if he does claim, I've got a dragon and I just showed everyone what happens when you cross me.

So burninate. So in reality it isn't entirely Madness that made her do it, she didn't just snap. She most likely did it knowing full well why she did it. Which honestly, is even more horrendous cause she can't fall back on madness.

[The Captain]

In blunt terms, the problem with GOT now is that they have put character beats before character motivation. Since they chose to barrel toward the ending quickly, which more on that in a moment, they basically had to shorthand everything and get every character to their endgame story line. I think the Xenogears metaphor is a great one, since we basically took the entire journey and got very used to the drawn out, sometimes subtle, sometimes overt ways of the plot clicking into place and now, at the end, we're just being read a summary of the plot and seeing the highlights.

For instance, clearly the endgame was for Dany to break bad. However, the motivation behind her choosing to do it in that moment, rather than say, when she lost her second dragon or as soon as Missy was beheaded, makes no sense. In both cases she just gets sad and leaves when frankly both of those called for her to unleash the fire in a more justified way. An obvious change to plot and timing that changes none of the story motivation: what if Rheagal had been killed during the sack of King's Landing, right when the bells ring and everyone stops for a moment. Perhaps some stray guards fired at Rheagal then and kill him when everyone thinks the battle is over, which causes Dany to fly into the rage she does. That to me makes more actual sense in the moment. Or what if she does attack the Red Keep but sees that Cersei has fled and essentially decides to burn the city down trying to find her? Both of those feel more earned than her just snapping NOW after all these other moments when it would have felt more justified.

It also frankly robs Dany of some more nuance, since her flying into a vengeful rage would make sense given all the betrayals in that moment instead of what is now clearly being explained as, "well, craziness runs in her family, so..."


Now, a brief aside, as I do wonder if deep down, the creators of GOT being given the keys to their own Star Wars kingdom perhaps heavily influenced a lot of these late game changes. I know a few of the crew that have worked on the show for a lot of its run and without giving away secrets can say this: they are among the best in the world and have given literally everything for a decade to put this show together for the world. Despite the plotting and writing issues, the scale and spectacle of this show is like nothing I have ever seen before and is jaw-droppingly beautiful and well crafted. (stray Starbucks cup or hand aside). The CleganeBowl was like some sort of video game finale come to life and I mean that in the best way possible.

However, what I can say, is that a lot of the people on the show were a bit burnt out from the constant grind of creating spectacle of this magnitude and while all of us would have preferred more episodes to flesh it out, it sounds like those at the top were ready for it to end. HBO was ready to back the truck up to give them whatever they wanted but their money and power couldn't convince them that a new challenge awaited, perhaps in a galaxy far, far away might prove to be more fun now. I'm not at all saying that their commitment or focus on GOT wavered, but it was no longer the laser it had been for most of the run and perhaps, with an eye toward the skies, the idea of big set pieces over plot gears slowing clicking into place took hold.

In a funny way, the big winner here ends up being GRRM because he got to see his vision come to life in an unbelievable way that still leaves so many wanting more and now he alone will be able to tell it.

Take care all.

[Psychotic]

Freya is Tormund and the rest of the forum is Jon Snow (https://youtu.be/RU0uIi5wv9s?t=157).

[Jinx]

I'm sorry, no matter what bad shit happened to her, she will never have an excuse to attack the innocent people of King's Landing. Cersei? Yes. Cersei's armies? Yes, until they, you know...surrendered? But just a shit ton of people who literally had nothing to do with anything? No, fuck that.

[Mr. Carnelian]

Non-constitutional monarchies are bad, and it shouldn't really be a surprise that anyone who wants to be a dictator turns out to be mad or evil. That being said, Dany's plot-line was clearly a bit rushed.

That's my two cents. :shrug:

[Jinx]

Non-constitutional monarchies are bad, and it shouldn't really be a surprise that anyone who wants to be a dictator turns out to be mad or evil. That being said, Dany's plot-line was clearly a bit rushed.

That's my two cents. :shrug:

Basically this, but I do see some people (around the web-o-sphere) saying "With all she's been through, do you blame her?" Well, yes. Yes I do. There's snapping, then there's massacring innocent people.

[The Captain]

Oh, for sure. Her actions cannot be justified. Her motivation for doing it and the timing of it, however, very much could have been better handled. Instead, she's just replaced Cersei as the final boss, instead of being the tragic downfall of a layered character. If somehow the final episode is all about the internal workings of her choices, then okay, maybe we can re-evaluate everything, but I kind of feel like it'll be a lot of her looking strong, regal and ruthless while the rest of the characters plot her downfall only for some last minute thing to kill her in the end.

Take care all.

[Del Murder]

Prediction: She nicks her leg on one of Drogon's claws and dies of an infected wound.

[Freya]

Well, we know sam's "get rekt kc" rep is totally appropriate commentary when she herself changes her opinion based on whatever freefolk decides is the ongoing narrative. So thanks for that Sam, your opinion, that is just what you read on the sub full of angry neckbeards, is so well spoken and nuanced. Your completely independent commentary is really such a nice thing to have around here.

I'm not saying her burning people was a GOOD thing. It's just not some crazy out of left field thing when she's literally been saying she'd do it for https://media2.giphy.com/media/rPlo269QmjXmU/giphy.gif. She failed at diplomacy in Meereen and only "succeeded" when she burninated everything. Yes, it could have used more fleshing out but no, it's not out of nowhere. Just cause the people were bad people before doesn't mean her use of violence and force wasn't still an issue over using diplomacy.

This is her Nuke.

Japan was pretty much rendered useless by the US before we dropped the Nukes. We could have waited it out, fought a few more battles, taken it all by ground/sky force until they gave up OR we dropped nukes. We dropped them and they went "HOLY smurf okay" and then everyone else went "HOLY CRAP okay". Those cities were also full of innocents as well. That's what dany just did. It set it up that no one was going to love her. Everyone was going to betray her and there was Jon who now has a more legitimate claim. So, drop the nuke so no one questions her right because, well a nuke. These people weren't going to rise up and join her like the slaves did. So, nuke em.

I mean, just cause you don't like that she did it. Because it is horrendous. Doesn't mean it was just out of nowhere. And if you think it is, i'm wondering if we're even watching the same show with how people missed all the red flags.

[The Captain]

Maybe in a twist one of Hot Pie's hot pies will be undercooked and Dany will die of a stomach issue?

The red flags were there for sure but the timing doesn't bare it out. Even in the commentary about the episode, the creators say Dany just made the decision when she saw the Red Keep, which again, why NOW and not when her other dragon or her best friend were killed? And why not attack the Red Keep FIRST? That's my real issue, as it again takes away the layers and just makes her capital E evil.

Take care all.

[Jinx]

I've never said it was out of nowhere. Mad Queen Dany has been hinted at since s1 when she dead eyed and snarked while her brother burned to death. My issue is more with people who think what she did was justified, and I've seen that a lot. I do think that her turn from hints of madness to full on bat shit was kind of rapid, though.

If anything, the hill I'm going to die on is that what they did to Jaime was inexcusable. He already had his Cersei relapse in s7. The whole "he's a Cersei addict, of course he's going to go back" is just. Nah.

[Freya]

I'm glad you've never been in an abusive relationship like that then, sam.

and it's not justified, she SHOULDN'T do it. But it's not just bad writing that she did. They could have spent more time getting there, yes. But it isn't poor writing that she went to the nuke option.

[Psychotic]

Daenerys has a history of violence but that's irrelevant. She also has a history of red lines. She has never, ever, used violence indiscriminately up until now. It's like if Cersei had suddenly ordered the Mountain to kill Myrcella and saying "aha! Cersei is a violent character who has ordered numerous deaths. This makes sense!"

Daenerys' red lines are:
1) If you are an innocent
2) If you bend the knee and submit

Time and time again you see her trying to get peace with her enemies through diplomacy (Yunkai, Meereen, the Tarlys, Cersei, even Jon Snow) and agreeing not to do trout if they surrender. And when they do bend the knee, she hasn't done a god damn thing. It's when they don't that she brings out Fire and Blood. Even then, she insists children be spared (see Astapor and "Harm no child") and the death of Zalla haunts her and causes her to chain up the dragons.

King's Landing surrendered, it was full of innocents and yet she crossed those two red lines anyway. Which I'm fine with, people change, their values change, their beliefs change and that makes an interesting character. But I don't find her sudden abandonment of her previous moral code out of nowhere to be believable.

And yes, really, it's out of nowhere.

Has Daenerys inflicting violence upon her enemies been shown? Yes of course.
Has her abandonment of that code, of killing those who surrender and killing innocents even been teased? No.

Also in the WW2 analogy, this would be the Empire of Japan surrendering and then the US dropping more atomic bombs on them anyway. Which would be both a war crime and poor character development for President Truman.

[Jinx]

poor character development for President Truman.

lol

[Freya]

I present Hizdahr zo Loraq

jFYPuJhyRKk?t=203

"Is it justice to answer one crime with another?" yeah he ended up being a shit but whatever the point still is pretty relevant and this was back in season 4. If she didn't find someone to be innocent, she didn't give a fuck.

If in her mind, these people aren't innocent, then the act was okay and justice for everything the city and the leaders put her and her family through. They "surrendered" but were they supporting her? no. They were just giving up. We, of course, don't know anymore since we saw the people's perspective, not hers.

[Jinx]

I liked one comment I read that, had the show chosen to take this direction (and indicate it on screen, not just the Behind the Scenes) would have been really good.

Basically, her seeing how quickly and easily the city fell, and how willing everyone was to surrender once they saw her dragon break through the gates and her army take down the Golden Company. And realizing that, had she actually just marched straight to King's Landing like she wanted, she would've won without nearly and bloodshed. That yes, she's lost everything, but she really didn't have to. And then just saying fuck it all to hell and snapping.

Or, realizing she's won a prize she didn't really want all that much (re: her hating ruling in Meereen) and burning it all next episode when she realize she's spent her whole life on vengeance and retribution for something that feels meaningless once she conquers it. Especially given that the people don't love her.

[Jinx]

man, i'm going to miss when this show is over, this is the most active eoff has been in years xD

[Loony BoB]

They "surrendered" but were they supporting her? no. They were just giving up.
This has always been enough for her before when it comes to war, as far as I recall. And that's the actual soldiers on the enemy lines who drop weapons, let alone citizens who are hiding in buildings clutching their family.

Also, this got me:

https://i.imgur.com/Z24QE4s.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/D8wT9MK.jpg

[The Captain]

At this point, the only ending I'll accept is someone finally petting Ghost and this:

76264

Take care all.

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

friendly reminder that the targaryens haven't been the true king or queen of trout in like 25 years

It comes down to perspective.

As you know in the lore/history, this has been a land of Targaryen rule for 300 years. Bobby B and the Bois came and took it by conquest only recently, so when Dany grows up she has every right to think the throne is being temporarily held by a usurper. The entire history of Westoros up to that point is Fire & Blood.

A usurper is by definition a person who takes a position of power by force.

There's a lot of interesting conversation to be had about conquest vs birthright in a land without democracy. Even now the tables have kind of shifted to Jon having the birthright, despite not wanting it, and Dany taking it by conquest.

Basically, having a new anus bleach the throne doesn't necessarily wipe the slate clean of claims to it, because this is a new precedent.

[Jinx]

That's all true, I think people who just bring up Targaryen birthright forget that the Targaryens only ever had the throne because of conquest.*

*yes, you can argue that technically they made the throne, but you understand where I'm getting at

Whether or not we like it, up until Sunday, Cersei Lannister was the rightful ruler of Westeros. She took the throne, she kept it, the people accepted her authority.

[WarZidane]

I'd just like to do a shout-out to Robert Baratheon. Everybody says he was a bad king but at least he picked a damn good Hand and let him do all the managing, not to mention he had the foresight to order a hit on the girl who ended up burninating King's Landing (on top of being the direct cause of the Night King being able to get past the wall)

[Freya]

I appreciate that you're now using the term burninating as well.

[Lord Golbez]

Jaime's return-to-form was also just dissatisfying in presentation. Maybe Brienne needed to die in the Battle of Winterfell to trigger this. Or just something more then "I'm going to King's Landing, bye now."


Honestly I actually find this to.be the most realistic conclusion. I'm assuming most of you have never been in a toxic/abusive relationship or known someone who has. When it came to "my love is going to die" this was a pretty obvious choice to make if you think of jaime like that.

Jaime going back made sense. Jaime fighting stupid euron did not.





"Death rides a pale horse."

This is a common misconception on the color of the horse Death rides. Another one of the horsemen rides a white horse. That's not the color meant by "pale." Death's horse is actually green.

Yes I'm sure the quote from revelations 6:8 is entirely a misconception and not where the quote is pulled from. It's a motif throughout history and media. At some point, a pale, white or grey horse becomes synonymous with it. Sorry.

And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.

The quote is a translation. The Bible wasn't originally written in English. "Pale" is an adequate translation. White is not. The color is green. Just because "pale" can mean white doesn't mean it always does. In this case it definitively does not. If your point is that GOT was trying to evoke a pale horse, I'm not disputing that. It still springs from a misconception of the color meant by "pale."

[Freya]

Okay but at this point it means pale after hundreds and hundreds of years meaning that and having been used across how much media and historical references.

Like your arguement is pedantic here just to point out what now? That nearly a thousand years of history is... wrong and a translation error? Well unfortunately it now has hundreds of years as that so it's taken a life of it's own.

Good job on informing us of that translation error though.

[Lord Golbez]

You keep acting like I'm saying "pale" is wrong. I'm not saying "pale" is wrong, I'm saying "white" is wrong. Whether chloros is necessarily "pale" or not, I'm not enough of an expert to know, but I do know it's green. Pale seems like a good poetic translation to me to convey the sickly nature of the coloration, but it's also ambiguous because it can lead people to think it means "white."

[Bubba]

Maybe in a twist one of Hot Pie's hot pies will be undercooked and Dany will die of a stomach issue?

You wash your filthy mouth out immediately.

Far too many problems with that episode that should be allowed in 120 minutes.

- Jaime's ridiculous fight with Euron
- Dany's descent, despite there being signs, was nowhere near adequately led up to
- Cersei dying by bricks
- Arya surviving seventeen times when she should have been toast
- Jon reduced to a simpleton who can only say "She's/you're my queen" and "I don't want it"
- Having an all-seeing Oracle in Bran and decide not to utilize him in any way.
- The resurrection of the Dothraki
- Varys getting caught out ridiculously easily

...and can we all have a collective laugh at the Golden Company being the most hilarious waste of money ever?

[Karifean]

It feels a bit like Dany is stuck in the character arc she should be having, but having it sold pretty smurfing poorly. She is far more selfish, spiteful, and unfair at heart than she's willing to admit to herself, and she's pursuing a goal that she never really wanted for reasons she probably doesn't even get herself. Her happiest possible life would've been just being Khal Drogo's wife for an entire lifetime, she was never meant to be a ruler, or a conqueror for that matter. However, she is extremely entitled to *being just that*, and the moment she set her eyes on that, her life was always going to end in misery, because the kind of life that makes her happy is and remains a far simpler one of her dedicating herself to a guy and pleasing him. But she could never admit this to herself since Season 2.

Really it's already since then that she's been guided by wanting her pain and hatred validated and to enact vengeance, rather than actually feeling compassionate towards other victims. And in Essos this worked out pretty well for her overall. She just needed to have the force to take from the evil men their ability to do evil, and she'd be the good and righteous one. All the while she had the space to come to terms with her own vulnerability. She always had Jorah, Jorah who was there even when she was merely Khal Drogo's wife, who still calls her by the name Khaleesi she has the fondest memories of, the one person who truly cared about her for who she is. And while their relationship has been rocky, she was never left hanging for too long and could rely on him in her heart.

Ever since leaving Essos one part of her has been emphasized over and over again, which is that she ultimately puts her ego and ambitions before the good of others. This is where she and Jon fundamentally differ because Jon has a truly genuine lack of ambition and simply wants to do right by others. He thought Dany was the same when she came for him beyond the wall and was even willing to risk losing one of her own babies, but that wasn't ever really who she was; she was just desperately trying to reclaim something she felt a spark of that she'd lost so long ago; a life as a girl in love. It's ironic in the end, that Jon reinforcing Dany as his queen was the decisive straw that their relationship would be built on falsehoods, and really sewed the seeds for this episode already.

And then these last few episodes just everything came crashing down for her in the worst possible ways. Jorah dies, the cracks between Jon and her coming to a head, her false goal being put in jeopardy, and even her advisors who really ultimately were an anchor for her that she was still the righteous one started turning on her or failing her. The Dany we're seeing right now is who she is in the end, when pushed to the brink. She doesn't really care about the suffering of common people, she never did. It was a weapon for her to be the moral and righteous one, to enact her vengeance on the same kind of bulltroutters and assholes that tore her ideal life away from her. But she's fallen so far. She could've had love with Jon. But she's lost that entirely. She has nothing. And she never will have anything again. The end of the Last War might as well be her death. Honestly at this point I hope the series ends with her ascending and then just committing suicide because "what the hell is the point of going on anymore", it'd probably at least get some people thinking about this series more deeply again. Alas I kinda doubt it.

Though this is also why I think leading it back to her cold eyes at Viserys burning up is entirely misguided. That and this are *nothing* alike. Even if she was a truly compassionate person, she still easily could've been that cold to that monster Viserys.

[Lord Golbez]

I think the Golden company being pushovers is the worst part. Every battle this season has been so ridiculously lopsided. It's really hard to swallow.

[Del Murder]

This all reminds me of when Stone Cold Steve Austin turned heel. Stone Cold was never the babyface, but more of an anti-hero who did what ever he wanted yet still had sort of a code he lived by. And the fans appreciated him for it. For some reason they decided he would turn heel, so they dropped several not-so-subtle hints of it that all seemed forced and the fans weren't buying it. Eventually they said smurf it and just had him join up with Vince McMahon. Yeah, the signs were there but the turn was sudden and forced and the fans were befuddled by it.

Daenerys won the Royal Rumble of Thrones and is now the Westeros Heavyweight Champion. Let's see how long her title reign is. Can you smell what the Bronn is cooking?

[Psychotic]

You know what else is wrong with the show? They don't talk about milk of the poppy anymore.

[Freya]

You know what else is wrong with the show? Blackwater bay just keeps changing in size and structure. Stannis could have easily avoided wildfire if it looked like what Euron was at.

[Psychotic]

Speaking of Stannis and Blackwater, what Davos said in this episode is now amusing:

bJkg-p2K3eI

[Freya]

heh, silly davos.


You keep acting like I'm saying "pale" is wrong. I'm not saying "pale" is wrong, I'm saying "white" is wrong. Whether chloros is necessarily "pale" or not, I'm not enough of an expert to know, but I do know it's green. Pale seems like a good poetic translation to me to convey the sickly nature of the coloration, but it's also ambiguous because it can lead people to think it means "white."

Like, I know this is just me being ornery right now in regards to your strangely off-topic posts on what you think a word is from an old translation from hundreds of years ago while ignoring its meaning for those hundreds of years since but... but I just can't help myself. Someone, please stop me.

...

...

THAT SAID


pale
/pāl/
adjective
1. light in color or having little color.
"choose pale floral patterns for walls"
synonyms: light, light-colored, pastel, neutral, light-toned, muted, subtle, soft, low-key, restrained;

verb
1. become pale in one's face from shock or fear.
"I paled at the thought of what she might say"
synonyms: go/turn white, grow/turn/become pale, blanch, blench, lose color;

Glad we cleared simple word meaning up.

[Jinx]

Haha, remember how only 4 episodes he was proposing Jon and Daenerys get married so Westeros could be ruled by "a good man, and a just woman"?



https://i.imgur.com/hx1jDxZ.gif

[Lord Golbez]

Something can be light in color, hence "pale," without being white. White is always pale, but pale isn't always white. I also don't know what evidence you have that "pale," specifically in reference to the biblical passage, has been interpreted as white for hundreds of years. It may have, but I know of no evidence for this.

[Freya]

I mean I literally linked you the technical description that includes the word white. I don't know what more you want here.

[Lord Golbez]

I have to assume you're deliberately shitposting because the alternative explanation would be that you truly don't understand how dictionaries work.

[Jinx]

You need to learn the actual definition of shitposting. Shitposting is always deliberate.

[Freya]

I have to assume you're deliberately troutposting because the alternative explanation would be that you truly don't understand how dictionaries work.

Me: *links you the dictionary description that lists white
You: "It has nothing to do with white. Learn how dictionaries work"
Me:

https://media1.giphy.com/media/BredPJ5axsJQ4/giphy.gif?cid=790b76115cdc66ff79797835416f38f0&rid=giphy.gifhttps://media2.giphy.com/media/12u04vnKK6XY9q/giphy.gif?cid=790b76115cdc670e2f67623955b35330&rid=giphy.gif


Regardless of your weird word obsession. I feel they used the PALE WHITE HORSE to be a "hehe death rides a pale horse, arya is basically death as she killed it and not todayed it lol" but then could fall back on "well, of course, we didn't mean to have Christian imagery in this show. it just showed a white noble thing in such a disaster zone"

Personally, I'm a fan of it being Bran as an Uber to pick her up.

[WarZidane]

It was shadowfax, taking a quick trip from one fantasy realm to another.

[Lord Golbez]

Regardless of your weird word obsession. I feel they used the PALE WHITE HORSE to be a "hehe death rides a pale horse, arya is basically death as she killed it and not todayed it lol" but then could fall back on "well, of course, we didn't mean to have Christian imagery in this show. it just showed a white noble thing in such a disaster zone"


Okay. You're probably right. I don't expect the GOT showrunners know the Greek text or are particularly well-schooled in Biblical lore in general, so yeah, it's pretty likely. I'd be happier though if they found some excuse to give it a greenish hue. Maybe some grass stains. To be fair to them though, the ash covering the horse may be meant to convey the same idea.

[Jinx]

https://i.imgur.com/o4TPBgv.png

[Psychotic]

I have never read the books. I just like swords 'n' titties. And the midget. And Boromir. Anything else is irrelevant.
You know the Queen and that guy were shagging, and Bran saw them and got shoved out the window? Are the Queen and that guy brother and sister?

'cause I thought that guy was the midget's twin brother, and the midget is also the Queen's brother. But, ew, incest!
also I think the King is possibly my favourite character. What a crazy fat bastard. I love him.
What! :zombert:

WHAT! :colbert:

I refuse to believe this. :doublecolbert:

Was so sure there was going to be a "STOOOOOOOP! They have Jamie" moment. :mymelbert:Ah, those naive and innocent days. I can't believe this wild smurfing ride is coming to an end in a few days. God damn. What an eight years it's been. Also lol "the midget". I legitimately didn't know Tyrion's name.

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

I have never read the books. I just like swords 'n' titties.

Me too, man.

This part holds up pretty well.

[Psychotic]

The second part holds up pretty well. Unfortunately I did immediately read them all after season 1 ended. Because Robb was going to team up with Renly, his aunt's forces in the Vale and Theon's Iron Islands kin, capture King's Landing and Joffrey would get what was coming to him.

I mean

eventually that last thing happened, so

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

Okay. You're probably right. I don't expect the GOT showrunners know the Greek text or are particularly well-schooled in Biblical lore in general, so yeah, it's pretty likely. I'd be happier though if they found some excuse to give it a greenish hue. Maybe some grass stains. To be fair to them though, the ash covering the horse may be meant to convey the same idea.

Oof. You should join a tourney.

Even the Knight of Flowers, with all his jousting capabilities, would be envious of that reach.

[maybee]

People on Twitter : Don't watch GoT, it's not worth it, don't even start.


Me who hasn't watched a single episode :


https://i.pinimg.com/236x/7c/ca/0f/7cca0f793a3a118ee19ccfde9f28f6d4.jpg

[The Captain]

In the end, the ride is/was still worth it and especially in light of how it's finishing, once again the old cliche is true: "it's the journey, not the destination". For 6+ seasons, GoT was some of the most compelling TV I've ever witnessed and none of that will change even if the last 2 seasons have been the weakest.

Endings are hard, especially when you decide to tie yourself into a knot first.

Reflecting back a bit, what do you think was the peak of the show? The Red Wedding? Hardhome? Hodor?

Take care all.

[Loony BoB]

Honestly just the general small-time dialogue. Things like Tyrion and Tywin talking together. That stuff ruled.

[Shaibana]

https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aE2jvz9_460s.jpg

[Raistlin]

https://i.redd.it/zp1x4272yfy21.jpg

[Bubba]

Flashback to when Euron Greyjoy hosted the 2014 Eurovision Song Contest.

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#Icelandtowin

[Mr. Carnelian]

Flashback to when Euron Greyjoy hosted the 2014 Eurovision Song Contest.

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#Icelandtowin

OMG, now I know where I recognised him from! 2014 was a good Eurovision year.

[Freya]

So my theory of tonight's final episode.

I think Dany will get killed by jon early on and then maybe Greyworm kills him. I don't think Jon is making it out alive either. I hope they at least give some time to show that the country isn't absolute fucked. But who knows what we'll get heh.

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

I've stayed 100% leak free.

So Jinx after tonight's episode lemmino if any of the leaks you read were spot on for the finale, or if the show was able to successfully pull a switcharoo on the audience with the alternate scenes they filmed or w/e

[Jinx]

I've stayed 100% leak free.

So Jinx after tonight's episode lemmino if any of the leaks you read were spot on for the finale, or if the show was able to successfully pull a switcharoo on the audience with the alternate scenes they filmed or w/e

So far the leaks have been 100% accurate since episode 4, but I'll definitely be sharing with the class after the finale airs!

However, apparently D&D called Kit in a few days ago to talk about something, and six minutes has been shaved off the air time. So who knows what we're losing there.

EDIT: The image has been baleeted, but I remember the biggest key points.

[Jinx]

The leaks were correct.

Things that didn't show up in the leaks that had me pleasantly surprised:
-Tyrion finding Jaime; sad, but beautiful
-Yara being at Tyrion's trial. Also, as much as I hated Daenerys, staying loyal to her
-Edmure showing up again only to be a total smurfing diptrout
-Brienne writing Jaime's story (not completely unexpected)
-POD BEING A MOTHERSMURFING KNIGHT OF THE KING'S GUARD
-Davos being Master of Ships (he was said to be on the small council, but this is the perfect job for him)
-Tyrion never being able to finish that goddamn joke, A+

Things that I knew were coming that had me very happy:
-Jon killing Daenerys
-SWEET ROBIN
-Sansa being the Queen in the North

Things that I knew were coming, but I thought I'd hate but I actually ain't mad about:
-Drogon carrying off Daenerys' body (in the leaks it said he carried her away on his back...how the f was she supposed to get up there)
-Arya going west

Things that I knew were coming and will never stop being smurfing stupid:
-Bronn being on the small council
-Bran being the king


The best part about this is that Denmark and I unintentionally named our dog after the winner of the Game of Thrones. Go us! Go Brandog Stark!

EDIT: I forgot that s h i t is filtered to trout, and that's very appropriate. Edmure is a diptrout.

[Vermachtnis]

Ghost got petted!

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

Final image my dudes.

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Shout out to the Prince of Dorne et all for making an appearance! I'll take the L on that one. Well, half an L, it didn't end up having an influence on the war. I do love that we got one final round table with the leaders of each respective area. Good to see Yara and Sam again.

Royce said "I!" and then Sweet Robin was like "yeah ok".

Before you all take turns slam dunking the episode and each other I just want to start this off with a really well done compliment to the show's imagery. These are two of my favorite moments the show has ever captured.

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[Jinx]

Y'all can ask Denmark, at that shot of Daenerys I literally said, "Oh, WOW."

gg btw on the Nazi imagery this episode

[Jinx]

does anyone else feel strangely uncomfortable that sweet robin got hot

[Freya]

Yeah I was confused who it was at first until I realized it was Robin.

I lold at sam trying to be all "democracy!" And they shut it down ha.

And technically I wasnt wrong for picking Sansa as my queen ha, she did become a queen.

In general, I figured it wouldnt be that amazing given how grand the story was and how we had to wrap it up. I feel this happens with a lot of big shows, the endings are never too satisfying. I remember all the hubbub about BSGs ending but now years later people view it better.

That'll probably be the case here too.

[Jinx]

It would have been better if we'd had s7 and s8 with a 10 episode order, with a 10 episode s9 like HBO wanted.

I'll say this: I feel better about this episode than I felt three weeks ago after the ending of The Long Night. My initial reaction to The Long Night was HOLY SHIT AMAZING and within 10 minutes I hated it (this is without the influence of freefolk, by the way).

Meanwhile I knew what was going to happen going in, and I don't really hate it so much. Maybe because I've known for the last couple of weeks what would happen, and I tempered my expectations. Probably what I'll feel soon is that I'll never love it, but it's fine. Not good, certainly not great, but it's meh and whatever.

[Freya]

Also there really isnt a nights watch and all the freefolk already pledged allegiance to Jon so did jon just basically become king beyond the wall?

[Jinx]

I think that was sort of the implication.

If not King Beyond the Wall, I think we are more or less supposed to believe that he took the freefolk North and doesn't plan on coming back. Honestly? I'm actually really okay with that ending. His whole thing has been not wanting to be a leader (or a king), and going north with a people he'd previously hated, but learned to respect, and later love to live his life out as a man without a sovereign is very much in character.

Also, Tormund is his best friend (fuck you Sam, you're a bad character and always have been) and seeing their relationship build over the series from hatred and mockery, to distrust, to tentative allyship, to friendship, to the love of brothers has been one of my favorite parts. Jon broing out with Tormund is a-okay with me.

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

I didn't really have a problem with anything other than the shortened seasons stifling the reward of every single payoff. The deterioration of Jon and Dany's relationship would have carried more weight if people even had time to get used to them actually being in one. Yeah we've had 2 years, but in show time they shacked up in S7E7 and already started to have lineage conflict in S8E3.

Also did Bran really say "I don't want it" and "Why do you think I'm here" in the same scene?

I don't know maybe I just took for granted that the world was round but apparently if you sail west of Westoros you either:

1. Fall off the face of the Earth
2. Find unexplored land I guess
3. Wave hello to Daario cause actually yes the world is round and you're in Essos now

[Freya]

I didn't really have a problem with anything other than the shortened seasons stifling the reward of every single payoff. The deterioration of Jon and Dany's relationship would have carried more weight if people even had time to get used to them actually being in one. Yeah we've had 2 years, but in show time they shacked up in S7E7 and already started to have lineage conflict in S8E3.

Also did Bran really say "I don't want it" and "Why do you think I'm here" in the same scene?

I don't know maybe I just took for granted that the world was round but apparently if you sail west of Westoros you either:

1. Fall off the face of the Earth
2. Find unexplored land I guess
3. Wave hello to Daario cause actually yes the world is round and you're in Essos now

Nah the what shadowlands? That's what's on the other side of Essos. Which if I recall in the books theres stories there about undead winter creatures there too but who knows if that's the same. But yeah it's like bravos and mareen on one side, then you've got the dothraki grasslands then the shadow lands I think.

[Jinx]

Yeah, Essos apparently dealt with its own Long Winter, but we haven't gotten much info on that.

Drogon probably went to Valryia or Asshai.

The deterioration of Jon and Dany would have worked if a.) Jon had show any affection for her at all this season b.) Kit and Emilia had any chemistry at all. I know, I know. I've slagged Emilia Clarke off for 7 years. But she had chemistry with Drogo, and Daario, and Jorah. Just like...none with Kit. I don't get it. Likewise with him. He had more chemistry with Grey Worm when they were about to pop off.

who cares if jon killed dany, their relationship meant nothing, and neither did him killing her. literally anyone else kill her would have made more sense.

[Freya]

I was amused how arya popped up and hes like whoa wtf

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

Yeah so I was pretty satisfied with this overall.

Chaos is a ladder but a few rungs were missing.

So hey how did we tally in our death poll.

[Psychotic]

Brienne writing Jaime's entry and SER PODRICK PAYNE OF THE KINGSGUARD made me happy. I'm also happy for Jon and Ghost, Tormund and the Free Folk.

Also at least Bronn got to do what he loves, rolling around in giant piles of coins.
does anyone else feel strangely uncomfortable that sweet robin got hotseriously, was coming here to post that. wtf sweetrobin guess all that breast milk paid off

[Loony BoB]

So, if you HAD to pick from the known living (Westeros-based) cast for Master of Whispers and Master of War, who would you go for?

[Psychotic]

There aren't many people to choose from that are (show) named characters! Assuming the North is discounted and maesters, Kingsguard etc. are not eligible here are your options:


Edmure Tully
Robin Arryn
Yohn Royce
Gendry Baratheon
Unnamed Dornish Prince
Yara Greyjoy
Gilly
Melessa Tarly
Talla Tarly
Ser Ilyn Payne (we never saw him die!)
I guess all of the Frey women?

Yohn Royce is the obvious choice for Master of War. smurf it, let's hire Gilly as Master of Whispers. She uncovered the "Raggar" Targaryen plot after all.

[Jinx]

Yohn Royce was also going to be my choice for Master of War.

If Arya hadn't fucked off to Westereros, I'd say her abilities would have made her the perfect Master of Whisperers. But let's be real here: no one's topping Varys, so why even bother? Fuck it, sure, Gilly. Why not.

[Denmark]

it's cool that arya got to go to valinor

[Karifean]

Daenerys vs Cersei turned out to be Trump vs Hillary all over again.

[Jinx]

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I actually made this lol

[Lord Golbez]

I don't know maybe I just took for granted that the world was round but apparently if you sail west of Westoros you either:

1. Fall off the face of the Earth
2. Find unexplored land I guess
3. Wave hello to Daario cause actually yes the world is round and you're in Essos now

The world can be round AND there can be undiscovered land.

[Mr. Carnelian]

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I actually made this lol

Speaking of, I'm DEFINITELY going to make and then post some rubbish memes on here after I've actually watched the episode later today. You've been warned.

[Jinx]

stolen from got shameposting

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[Shaibana]

all im going to say is that this episode dissapointed me in so. many. ways.

[Jinx]

Announcing the winner of my little deathpool! Person with the fewest incorrect guesses gets to subvert our expectations and become King of Westeros at the eleventh hour!

Heather....................18
Freya.......................16
Psychotic..................13
Denmark..................12
Jinx.........................10
Kalevala...................10
Shauna......................9



Bubba........................6

Lone Wolf Leonheart.....5

Congrats on the win! Clearly someone had a leak of the scripts this season! DM me your address for a small, dumb prize if you'd like. :D

[Slothy]

I don't know maybe I just took for granted that the world was round but apparently if you sail west of Westoros you either:

1. Fall off the face of the Earth
2. Find unexplored land I guess
3. Wave hello to Daario cause actually yes the world is round and you're in Essos now

The world can be round AND there can be undiscovered land.

There is some real world precedent for this.

[Loony BoB]

I don't know maybe I just took for granted that the world was round but apparently if you sail west of Westoros you either:

1. Fall off the face of the Earth
2. Find unexplored land I guess
3. Wave hello to Daario cause actually yes the world is round and you're in Essos now

The world can be round AND there can be undiscovered land.
To be fair, what Lone Wolf said doesn't discount that in any way. It's just that #2 can happen if the world is round OR flat.

[Shauna]

The ending was fine. Sansa got her dues, which is all that I care about, I guess?

Except for the whole... Bran decision. I don't know why they did the thing.

[Slothy]

Making him king? Hard to find a better one than someone who doesn't want it for all the right reasons and also has all of human history and seemingly the future at his finger tips so he can guide people well.

[Jinx]

>"doesn't want it"
>"starts the war that means he'll get it"