Game of Thrones: House of the Dragon!

[Freya]

He just doctor stranged it. He made sure to manipulate it so the only outcome would be that he's king? :D

[Psychotic]

Edmure was robbed.

[Jinx]

that's it, show's over (literally)

mods please close thread, we ain't topping this

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[Lord Golbez]

>"doesn't want it">"starts the war that means he'll get it"How did Bran start the war? Heck I'm not even sure if anything he did really altered the ultimate course of Jon and Daenerys' relationship, but that would be the closest to manipulating his way to the crown.

[Aulayna]

I am happy enough with this finale.

Apart from Bran being crowned king... I'm still undecided on.

Also I'm sure all those shots of Arya sailing away on a boat are supposed to make me want an All Aboard for Arya's Audacious Adventures Around the World (working title) spin-off, but nah... it did nothing for me.

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

I don't know maybe I just took for granted that the world was round but apparently if you sail west of Westoros you either:

1. Fall off the face of the Earth
2. Find unexplored land I guess
3. Wave hello to Daario cause actually yes the world is round and you're in Essos now

The world can be round AND there can be undiscovered land.

Yeah obviously.

Do you ever join a thread to contribute an original thought to the discussion or does it always have to be some pedantic and/or condescending rebuttal to another poster?

Ride your pale green horse in a more positive direction my dude.

[Aulayna]

Just thinking about the last parts of the episode again...

Hand meeting on who to appointment for the missing positions and general day to day business of the realm. Bran, in classic Bran fashion, smurfs off to go worg into animal (this time, a Dragon... quite why he didn't do that during the Long Night we'll never know). Classic Bran, shirking the responsibility to someone else. 10/10 King.

:lol:

[Mr. Carnelian]

In the Game of Memes, you post, or you die.


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[Jinx]

Appently IHW lost his mind when he read the script and thought it was all a big joke.

[The Captain]

In the end, reverse engineering the story to go from the end points to give some sort of coherent reasons why proved just too much for the lack of time afforded. It got where it needed to go but essentially felt like a wikipedia page explaining the plot by the end, "Jon and Dany fall in love, Jon finds out his secret, Dany doesn't like it, Dany gets mad, goes mad, Jon kills Dany".

My only real qualms about this logically were twofold: How in the heck did Grey Worm and the apparently THOUSANDS of respawned Dothraki not gut Jon the instant he came out of the throne room? Suddenly, they show him mercy and just lock him up when they've been slitting throats of anyone that looks at them funny? Then, how does Jon's background not even come up at all in the Dragonpit? No one there thinks that maybe Jon, like most every other leader in Westeros' history, should be the next king because he killed to get there? Jon wouldn't have accepted it of course, but just banishing him instead of him choosing to leave took the agency out of the character's hands and felt so strange after all the years of buildup.

Plus, I guess we're meant to understand the point of him coming back to life was to take down Dany? Tough break for those star-crossed lovers.

Most characters finished in places that felt true to them, save Bran, who the show so horribly bungled and frankly made into the least interesting character on the show bar none. I would have to imagine that those mythic still to come books will flesh this out more and explain what the heck is up with him.

Though Game of Thrones has ended, it's only for now. This is some powerful IP that I fully expect to be used over and over again, not just with prequels but with some more one off stories down the road. We joke about the Adventures of Arya, but don't doubt HBO or Apple or Netflix aren't already scheming how to make that into a limited run series.

Take care all.

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

Yeah I'm comin' for all your heads.

LWL is sitting on the throne by the end of this thing.

Let it be known LWL the first of his name, father of ducks and the great grass memes called his kingship back in March with a vision the likes of which even the three eyed raven would be envious of.

[Del Murder]

In one of those pool thingies I said the Iron Throne would melt in the end. Lookin' good for me!
IT MELTED! IT smurfING MELTED! I WIN THE GAME OF THRONES!!!!!:cheer::cheer::chocobo:

[Bubba]

Announcing the winner of my little deathpool! Person with the fewest incorrect guesses gets to subvert our expectations and become King of Westeros at the eleventh hour!

Heather....................18
Freya.......................16
Psychotic..................13
Denmark..................12
Jinx.........................10
Kalevala...................10
Shauna......................9

And the winner is...

Bubba........................6

Lone Wolf Leonheart.....5

Congrats on the win! Clearly someone had a leak of the scripts this season! DM me your address for a small, dumb prize if you'd like. :D

Considering I had zero access to the leaked scripts I think I did pretty well!

[Mr. Carnelian]

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[Bubba]

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"Look, I'm not much good at big speeches, and I know GoT hasn't been an easy show to get on with. And I know that given the choice, I probably wouldn't have chosen Bran for king. But, I just want to say... that over the years... I have to come to regard it... as... a show... I watched."

[Bubba]

If anyone is interested, here is the full joke that Tryion never got to tell...


Tyrion walks into a brothel with a honeycomb and a jackass.
Madame: What can we do for you?
Tyrion: I need a woman to lay with, for mine has left me.
Madame: Whatever for? And what's with the honeycomb and the mule?
Tyrion: My woman found a genie in a bottle and he granted her three wishes. The first was for a house fit for a queen, so he gave her this damn honeycomb. The second wish was that she have the nicest ass in all the land, so he gave her this damn donkey...
Madame: And what about the third wish?
Tyrion: Well... she asked the genie to make my cock hang down past my knee.
Madame: Well that one's not so bad eh?
Tyrion: Not so bad!? I used to be six foot three!

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

HBO's airing a documentary tonight called "The Last Watch", trying to milk that one last weekend of Game of Thrones viewership.

Looks to be full of behind the scenes, table reads, make up, set building, things of that nature.

If anyone wants to squeeze one more weekend out of this thread I'll be watching this and I'll be here afterwards to talk about it with anyone else who does.

And then my watch will end. But you know. Until the prequels start up.

9K7c0jXkaGc

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

The set creations are so amazing. It's wild that it took 7 months to build King's Landing from the bottom up. I figured they might have used some pre-existing cathedral type building somewhere or something.

It was really cool seeing the table read and seeing the cast's reactions as they read what would happen to them for the first time.

The head of snow said that they basically just used wet paper in their sets. That's a really cool effect. Obviously it's real snow when they shoot in places like Iceland.

Vladimir Furdik/The Night King is so damn awesome. He's a man of many hats. Helping with the choreography and stunt work when he isn't behind the mask.

Overall it's a cool documentary, but at a 2 hour runtime it could have been cut in half tbh. There's a lot of neat stuff here but there's only so much I need to see of like seeing the extra's tent get built or w/e. Part's like that were just general behind the scenes stuff that really could have applied to any show and wasn't GoT specific.

[Psychotic]

So, after this season left me unsatisfied I started re-reading A Game of Thrones. My god, this book is so good. I'd forgotten how wonderful it was. The pacing is superb and the way Martin keeps your interest in so many plot threads is excellent. I think I am enjoying it even more from the perspective of knowing how it turns out and who all the random side characters are because there's so many little nuances and subtleties to pick up on. If anyone is bored I really recommend doing so (and then we can nerd out and share our thoughts together :flirt:)

I think the failure of the last season or two of the show has kind of put Martin's struggles with TWoW into perspective. It must be a nightmare to bring all of these threads together neatly. I wonder how much of the final two seasons will happen in the books. I suspect a lot of the fan service (Gendry x Arya, Brienne x Jaime, Lyanna, Arya in general actually etc) will not make it. I'm entirely convinced the Night King as we knew him in the show won't be in it.

[Jinx]

So, after this season left me unsatisfied I started re-reading A Game of Thrones. My god, this book is so good. I'd forgotten how wonderful it was. The pacing is superb and the way Martin keeps your interest in so many plot threads is excellent. I think I am enjoying it even more from the perspective of knowing how it turns out and who all the random side characters are because there's so many little nuances and subtleties to pick up on. If anyone is bored I really recommend doing so (and then we can nerd out and share our thoughts together :flirt:)

I think the failure of the last season or two of the show has kind of put Martin's struggles with TWoW into perspective. It must be a nightmare to bring all of these threads together neatly. I wonder how much of the final two seasons will happen in the books. I suspect a lot of the fan service (Gendry x Arya, Brienne x Jaime, Lyanna, Arya in general actually etc) will not make it. I'm entirely convinced the Night King as we knew him in the show won't be in it.

I'm actually rereading the series now too. You want to maybe make a discussion thread for it?

And yes, it's so smurfing good. Like you said, it's interesting reading it through the scope of what we know now. I can see some possible hints about Bran's fate especially, in Ned's musings.

I'm really interested to see what happens to book Tyrion, since they white-washed the trout out of him in the show. I understand they did it because Peter Dinklage made him so beloved, but I would have liked to see him go dark. He has the acting chops for it.

[Psychotic]

Where he wonders if Bran can be the High Septon? I was amused by that. That's not even your religion!

Yeah, I think Tyrion was wasted in the show. I am happy to believe the dark Tyrion theories so far although I'll be thinking closely about them on the re-read.

I'll tell you who comes out of it surprisingly well: Littlefinger. He's genuinely funny in this book and although there's a couple of awkward moments with Cat/Sansa he doesn't come across as badly as he does in the show. His "ahh don't trust me I'm a liar!" manner is disarming and, from Ned's perspective, it seems like he's genuinely trying to help the Starks. Of course, with knowledge from other chapters, specifically Tyrion's, you know he's full of trout about the Valyrian steel dagger.

In general I actually dislike the characterisation of Ned as dumb, particularly when it was Sansa of all people (in the show) calling him that - as if she had any idea what he was actually up to in King's Landing with investigating Jon Arryn and the bastards. He was fully smurfing aware of the risks of what he was doing and how dangerous it was. He took steps to minimise the damage and tried to get the girls out, though Sansa smurfed it up (and I don't mean that unkindly, she was a young girl who was smitten)

Also I think that honour inspires a hell of a lot of loyalty for him and his children down the line. It was not pointless! I believe that in the end, the love for Ned and his honour will really help House Stark.

[Jinx]

Yes, exactly that part! Although you're right about him not being of the Seven faith and so Bran becoming High Septon is actually quite funny.

What Tyrion theories have you read?

Book Varys is kind of the smurfing worst, though. The way he's portrayed in the show makes him seem like so much more of a threat, although I suppose, his simpering in the books is just another one of his disguises. Of course, they smurfed up Varys so badly in the show (like pretty much everything else).

Also, I'm very, very glad you said that about Sansa. There are a lot of men (especially) who hate Sansa because she "betrayed" her family, forgetting that in the show she's 13, and in the books she's 11. She went to someone who had been kind to her, who she thought she could trust. Once her father was killed, she stopped trusting the Lannisters and everything she did was either to survive or to try and escape them. She's a literal child. People are unwilling to forgive her earlier chapters--literally written to sound like a bratty child--for the growth that she shows. I don't know, Sansa isn't like a big fave of mine (she's fine, I like her), but I will smurfing stan her until my dying breath because neckbeards can't stand that sometimes women--or in this case, a little girl--make mistakes.

On this reread I have to say that I'm hating Bran's chapters. He just isn't interesting to me. At all. Jon's a little better this time around, Arya's boring, Ned's great, Catelyn's decent, Daenerys is good, Tyrion's the best.

Also, I'm of the opinion that fAegon is real Aegon, but neither Illyrio or Varys was aware of the annulment of Elia and Rhaegar's marriage (and I do think they'll go annulment route instead of double marriage a la Aegon I) and I believe that information will come to light, and he'll find out his claim to the throne isn't valid. I believe he will actually prove himself to be a very good ruler, and that Illyrio and Varys' plan will have worked, but finding out this information will smurf everything up, and Dany will yeet him. The people will be profoundly unhappy that she removes someone they love, (especially if she does so by burning King's Landing). Then find out that Jon is actually Rhaegar's heir. This is my own theory, not something I've read elsewhere. I think it will especially tie in with the theme that those who should have the right to rule are those who are willing to do best by the people they rule.

[Psychotic]

Dark Tyrion? Mostly the Meereenese Blot and Poor Quentyn. I do like the idea of him going up against Varys with his own Targaryen in the form of Daenerys. It would certainly make for more intrigue than the lol u have no cock pointless banter they had in the show. Given how full of rage and bitterness he is at the end of ADWD I can really see him and Daenerys going full Fire and Blood. If anything he will be egging her on, not the other way around.

I actually love simpering Varys. It's the mummer training but I love how he seems sincerely shocked and saddened by every last development, like how he seems moved to his very core about Sansa's love for Joffrey/her father.

Yeah there is nothing wrong with what Sansa did. She was kept - deliberately so - in the dark about the danger they were in and the game of thrones. She'd just been to a tourney and saw the handsome Knight of Flowers who gave her a special red rose, she had her beloved Joffrey - who was very capable of being sweet and chivalrous when it suited him and I think that's overlooked - she was becoming friends with the Queen and it was everything she'd ever dreamed of. Of course she'd go to the Queen to try to sort everything out when she thought she was being made to return to Winterfell for being bad.

As for writing the infamous letters that offended Arya in the show, again, of course she wrote them. Ooh, little Lyanna Mormont would say no to the Lannisters, would she? Would she bollocks. Sansa was locked in a tower for several days an has been told she has traitor's blood and can't marry Joffrey. She trusts, loves, worships Cersei. Because she's the Queen. That's it. That's all there is to it. Why wouldn't she write letters as the Queen asks?

I don't mind Bran's chapters because I think they give a great insight into Robb and the conflict he faces between being a boy and Robb the Lord. The scene where they held hands in the dark and cried was really touching and one of my favourites. With Arya, I forgot her fierce as a wolverine et al mantras and I kind of liked them, they were cute. I also like how vulnerable she is and worried for her father, and it was touching how she made up with both Sansa and Septa Mordane, people she doesn't like, out of her love for her father. I like the Jon and Daenerys chapters and think there's some mirroring going on with how they adapt to their really difficult new lives. Ned and Tyrion are my favourites too though for sure, although I also like Catelyn and how she sees through Lysa's shit.

I have a view on Aegon but I want to re-read ADWD first!

[Jinx]

Dark Tyrion? Mostly the Meereenese Blot and Poor Quentyn. I do like the idea of him going up against Varys with his own Targaryen in the form of Daenerys. It would certainly make for more intrigue than the lol u have no cock pointless banter they had in the show. Given how full of rage and bitterness he is at the end of ADWD I can really see him and Daenerys going full Fire and Blood. If anything he will be egging her on, not the other way around.

Oh man, I'd actually kind of love that. Book Tyrion and Book Daenerys are such vastly different and more interesting characters, and I'd love to see them actually revel in fucking shit up.




As for writing the infamous letters that offended Arya in the show, again, of course she wrote them. Ooh, little Lyanna Mormont would say no to the Lannisters, would she? Would she bollocks. Sansa was locked in a tower for several days an has been told she has traitor's blood and can't marry Joffrey. She trusts, loves, worships Cersei. Because she's the Queen. That's it. That's all there is to it. Why wouldn't she write letters as the Queen asks?

And in the show at least (probably in the book too, haven't gotten there yet) Catelyn sees through it immediately, and it's a big part of why Robb chooses to call the banners. She was being held captive. They never believe for a second Sansa is actually trying to betray them. Even if she chose to write the letter sincerely (and in the scene between her and Cersei, she's hesitant), it doesn't mean she was being treacherous. It's just a little girl misplacing her trust, trying to fix a situation.


I don't mind Bran's chapters because I think they give a great insight into Robb and the conflict he faces between being a boy and Robb the Lord. The scene where they held hands in the dark and cried was really touching and one of my favourites.

I actually nearly brought up this scene in my last post, just because I loved it so much. You make a good point; also Catelyn's chapters do a good job of showing Robb the boy (mentions of his crown sitting on his head awkwardly, etc) and not Robb the King. I understand why the show chose to portray Robb as it did--especially since they considerably aged him up. Sadly, I think that it pared down Catelyn's story a bit, which is a shame, but doesn't matter as much without Lady Stoneheart being in the show. (There are theories that Lady Stoneheart will take over Beric's role in the show, and I think Beric's sacrifice would have been much more interesting to see from LSH's perspective...especially now that she's basically a purely evil entity. Being able to find that sliver of love and humanity that has fueled her entire adult life.)


Septa Mordane
I don't know why, but Ned telling Arya that Septa Mordane is a good woman is important to me. I think it's because it's instilling a lesson in Arya that just because we don't like someone doesn't mean they are bad, and doesn't mean they aren't on our side. Sansa is of course mentioned in the same conversation, but I think it's going to be important for the "pack". Also, Septa Mordane IS a good woman, and I'm glad she got some appreciation for everything she did for the Starks.



I have a view on Aegon but I want to re-read ADWD first!
Well, what is it? I'd like to know to see how your view changes when you reread. I've also only read ADwD once, and that was 4 years ago, so my head's basically filled with a lot of fluff in regards to that book.

[Psychotic]

Yeah, one of the major themes of Catelyn's story is family (them Tully words) and it doesn't quite come across in the show that Robb is in slightly over his head and barely holding it together. He's second guessing and uncertain about his plan with the two Lannister hosts until she coaches him to it, and she sorts the Frey crossing out with aplomb. Again, I dislike how the character is called dumb. Taking Tyrion hostage was a little impulsive, but she outsmarts him twice to pull it off. He would've made a fine hostage for the war (both Tywin's sons in their custody - whatever Tywin originally thought of Tyrion, his attitude immediately changes when he gives Jaime up for dead) but unfortunately the attack of the mountain clansmen left her reliant on both Bronn and Lysa. I'm looking forward to seeing more of her insight in Clash.

With Aegon, people read too much into the "Mummer's dragon" line. He's Varys' dragon, that doesn't mean he's necessarily a false dragon. What I do know is that his story is intrinsically linked to that of Dorne and I expect House Martell to back him. I think a major theme of his story is rushing into things. His rise and return to Westeros has been planned for years, as has Doran Martell's revenge on the Lannisters. But they all have itchy trigger fingers, combined with the greyscale death sentence on Jon Connington and I think they're going to serve their revenge pie before it's cold. Aegon will take over much of the Stormlands and follows that up by pushing Mace Tyrell's trout in. It genuinely wouldn't surprise me if Randyll Tarly follows his show arc and betrays the Tyrells too and Mace dies. I hope we get a viewpoint (Jon Connington?) of that battle because it's going to be brutal for the Knights of Summer.

I also think the Sparrows will ally with him (given how religious his upbringing has been) and welcome him into King's Landing. And then? Daenerys shows up. Fire and Blood. Dance of the Dragons... but not at KL. Dorne is going to be utterly ruined by Daenerys. I think maybe there will be some sort of machinations between Varys and Tyrion, and I think Aegon's hastiness will see him be the one to ruin the peace and and that's when she goes wild on King's Landing.

I don't know where Cersei and the Lannister regime fits into this but presumably Tommen has to die at some point, followed by (Queen?) Myrcella in the burning of the Water Gardens.

[Jinx]

I definitely think people read too much into him being the mummer's dragon. I believe he's the real deal. But like I said, his claim is going to be void when people find out about the annulment of Elia's marriage.

I think the Sparrows backing Aegon is a possibility, which would further lead Cersei to blow up the Sept (I do think we're going to get this in the book, by the way, and I think it's going to lead Jaime to kill her). But I think Aegon is going to win the Iron Throne, at least for a time, until Daenerys shows up.

[Psychotic]

I dunno, wouldn't the vision Daenerys saw in the House of the Undying of Rhaegar with Elia and Aegon imply they were still married at the time of birth? He wasn't baseborn at the very least.

[Jinx]

They were definitely married when he was born, but an annulment would legally mean the marriage never happened, meaning they wouldn't be considered trueborn. Retroactively, he'd lose claim.

I don't know, I think it's going to be very interesting to see how that comes up in the books, especially if the annulment of their marriage and the discovery of Jon's existence becomes common knowledge. If GRRM chooses to go that route. I guess he could say that because they were married at the time, he won't be disinherited. But he takes a lot of his ASoIaF from The War of the Roses/Tudor history, and Henry VIII disinherited Mary and Elizabeth both for a time, and they were considered bastards. Nowadays we'd never consider a child illegitimate if their parents divorced (and really, who really even thinks about this sort of thing anyways, besides the super-ultra-religious?).

Dorne will definitely back him, but if they find out that Rhaegar and Elia annulled their marriage (especially if Rhaegar did it without Elia's consent), I think it will lead to them backing him in open rebellion. Which might lead to your Daenerys theory.

[Scotty_ffgamer]

I keep toying with the idea of reading the books, but I hate the idea of never knowing how long the wait will be for the end. I did read the first book in college and really enjoyed it. I’m not sure why I stopped reading the second. I think I will try to read the series after I’m finished with the book I’m currently reading.

Has anyone read the other stories in the ASoIaF universe, and are they worth picking up?

[Del Murder]

I'll read those books when he finishes it, so maybe never. I hope some day though as I liked the first couple I read. The story is definitely too grand for TV after the first couple books. The show should have cut out several major plot items just to keep the pacing consistent through the 8 seasons. Like bring Dany over the sea quicker so that she can integrate with the characters more fluidly or cut out the Dorne plot altogether.

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

I started reading the first book at one point but decided to hold off until they were done. So maybe ill never read them but if George rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Martin gives us an ending ill go through and marathon them.

This is mostly because I'm apprehensive about reading a story that might not get finished.

Who knows maybe ill change my mind. I do have The World of Ice and Fire so I've been okay with reading lore and side stories.

[Psychotic]

If you enjoy the world and setting, and you thought the first few seasons were excellent, I cannot recommend the books enough. I know there is the risk of no ending but at least there's the show - disappointingly threadbare though it was - to fall back on. I also think The Winds of Winter is sooner than we think. From what people have gleamed, GRRM had nearly finished it before, decided it didn't fit well enough together and has re-written large swathes. Make of that what you will!

Also from reading AGoT, I've been thinking about Viserys. He's written off as an example of Targaryen madness but I don't think a character from any other house who had acted like that would be labelled mad. He's an entitled insecure bully, sure, but actual insanity? Not really. Everything he did had a purpose, either to exert control over Daenerys or to get his army to reclaim the Iron Throne. His sneering I'm-so-superior attitude to the Dothraki is no different from, say, how the nobles in the Vale viewed Bronn vs Ser Vardis Egen and elitism is nothing unusual in that setting. His downfall is in failing to adapt (as Dany did) to Dothraki culture and as a result being convinced that he'd been stiffed in a business deal. It's not madness to get pissed off if you think someone has swindled you. (still a colossally unlikeable twat all in all though obviously)

[Jinx]

I also recommend the books. I think something is lost if you try and get through them as quickly as possible on your first read through. There's so much to pick up on that you'll miss if you're just trucking through. With most series, that stuff comes out better in rereads. But I think something is even lost reading the series now, knowing more or less how it ends, and which of the secrets were answered. But there's a LOT the show didn't even start to touch on. Like, smurfing Dorne? The entire main character from that plot isn't even IN the show! Euron Greyjoy is actually interesting and a threat! People consider Theon and Bran secondary characters...that's a big smurfing problem! Neither of them are secondary characters!

You're right about Viserys. He was cruel, but no crueler than, say? The Hound? A very beloved character. I think it's telling that Dany still chose to name a dragon after him. And he kept her alive for all of those years. We know his paranoia about the usurper's assassins was legitimate, and he was quite a little boy himself when his life got upended. But he protected Dany, made sure she didn't starve, sold everything they ever had. If he was truly, completely evil, he would've just left her for dead and taken care of himself.

Little tidbit I just noticed: Ned tells Arya that a lie for the right reasons is not without honor. Robert tells him later that he "never could lie for love or honor". Sean Bean was an extraordinary Ned, but I still think the show as missing something on just how solemn of a person he is. He doesn't sugar coat his words like other people do, he rarely laughs. I guess what I'm saying is that he's an extremely bald-faced person. I wish we could know more about how carrying the secret of Jon's parentage for so many years ate at him. Although there are theories that he told Benjen, and that's part of why Benjen joined the Night's Watch.

[Psychotic]

Oh man don't get me started on book Euron compared to show Euron. Book Euron is a terrifying and pure evil - as in even worse than Ramsay and Joffrey imho - sorcerer who is going to bring an actual sea of blood and Lovecraftian horror to Westeros. Show Euron is wacky Captain Jack Sparrow finger in the bum. Also the show needed Victarion who I am very fond of, the big dumb badass.
You're right about Viserys. He was cruel, but no crueler than, say? The Hound? A very beloved character. I think it's telling that Dany still chose to name a dragon after him. And he kept her alive for all of those years. We know his paranoia about the usurper's assassins was legitimate, and he was quite a little boy himself when his life got upended. But he protected Dany, made sure she didn't starve, sold everything they ever had. If he was truly, completely evil, he would've just left her for dead and taken care of himself. Spot on. I think his is a very sad story and incredibly tragic. But I think because we see the abusive bully he was rather than the little boy who lost everything or the teenager on the run with his kid sister in tow we lose sight of his downfall and transformation into a prick.
Little tidbit I just noticed: Ned tells Arya that a lie for the right reasons is not without honor. Robert tells him later that he "never could lie for love or honor". Sean Bean was an extraordinary Ned, but I still think the show as missing something on just how solemn of a person he is. He doesn't sugar coat his words like other people do, he rarely laughs. I guess what I'm saying is that he's an extremely bald-faced person. I wish we could know more about how carrying the secret of Jon's parentage for so many years ate at him. Although there are theories that he told Benjen, and that's part of why Benjen joined the Night's Watch. Without a doubt. Ned's thoughts and feelings are so interesting and I appreciate why Martin had to censor his thoughts on Jon's parentage to preserve the narrative integrity, I would really enjoy seeing how he feels about it. I think there's a little flash of worry about Jon when Ned is in the Black Cells, I just wish we could've seen more. Ned is haunted.

[Jinx]

I remember almost nothing from Euron's chapters (does he even actually have chapters?), and all I really remember from Victarion's chapters is that he's a complete fucking oaf.

[Psychotic]

Nah, we see Euron through Asha, Victarion and now Aeron. Aeron's sample Winds chapter is horrible. And yes, that's exactly what Victarion is and I love him for it.

[Jinx]

Oh. Hey. Brother raped my wife. Let's kill her, the dumb bitch!

I know the fact that it's heavily implied that Euron repeatedly raped Aeron as a kid makes him scary to me. But like I said--I remember little else about him.

[Jinx]

Psy, why have we never discussed Tyrion, the time-traveling fetus? (I am reminded of this because I just got to the chapter where Daenerys tries to give Viserys clothes and [at least to the reader] feels the baby move for the first time.)

[Jinx]

Also, I'm reminded of how much I actually really like book Daenerys a lot. I'd say based on the POV from the first book, she's the most miscast. I understand why they aged up all of the characters, but I think her innocence and sweetness was lost in translation when they (rightfully, by the way) chose to go with a young woman instead of a girl barely in her teens. I'm interested to see how she and Sansa interract in the books, since they're only a couple of years apart in age, instead of several. I still hold Clare Bowen would have been the best Daenerys, disregarding age. There's a real vulnerability in here that Emilia Clarke lacked, even in season 1, which is hands down her best season. Only s7 EC/Dany is comparably as good.

I hate to say it, but Peter Dinklage was the second worst miscast. I understand that there aren't many working actors with dwarfism, and he's AMAZING. Not hating him at all. Obviously book Tyrion is far uglier and much more monstrous looking (let's be real--even in the show Tyrion is called handsome on at least one occasion by Margaery, and I think again later too). And it's my understand GRRM is really unhappy now with how he portrayed Tyrion's appearance. But it's really not that. Peter Dinklage is just too smurfing sympathetic. You're supposed to like book!Tyrion, but also understand that, even early on, there's a hint of something not very nice in him (see: him getting extremely angry that Catelyn outsmarted him, simply because it hurt his pride, not because it put him in danger).

Sean Bean was the perfect Ned.
Michelle Fairley is not my favorite casting choice, but I think she did a really good job. I just think there were probably better choices for Catelyn.
Sophie Turner was a solid choice for early season Sansa.
Maisie Turner was a solid choice for Arya.
Isaac Hempstead-Wright was the perfect choice for early season Bran.
Kit Harrington was chosen for looks, but is an acceptable choice.

Anyways, this whole post is basically getting to the point that the actors who I see while reading are Robert, Viserys, Varys, Drogo, Hodor, Lewin. Most of the main characters actors I don't really see. So rereading the books feels completely different (not just because of story differences) and it's actually very enjoyable because of that. Especially in cases where I didn't care for the actors (see: Emilia Clarke, sort of Kit Harrington).


tl;dr book!Dany is such a great smurfing character

[Psychotic]

Psy, why have we never discussed Tyrion, the time-traveling fetus? (I am reminded of this because I just got to the chapter where Daenerys tries to give Viserys clothes and [at least to the reader] feels the baby move for the first time.)the what now? is rhaego tyrion?


Also, I'm reminded of how much I actually really like book Daenerys a lot. I'd say based on the POV from the first book, she's the most miscast. I understand why they aged up all of the characters, but I think her innocence and sweetness was lost in translation when they (rightfully, by the way) chose to go with a young woman instead of a girl barely in her teens. I'm interested to see how she and Sansa interract in the books, since they're only a couple of years apart in age, instead of several. I still hold Clare Bowen would have been the best Daenerys, disregarding age. There's a real vulnerability in here that Emilia Clarke lacked, even in season 1, which is hands down her best season. Only s7 EC/Dany is comparably as good.You're right, there's definitely an innocent dreamer of a little girl at the start. It's almost a coming-of-age story as she learns about and adapts to the Dothraki culture, the caged bird (sorry Sansa) finally able to spread its wings for the first time. And then she's confronted with the brutal reality of what the Dothraki actually are and what the relative luxury she is continuing to live in actually means for people.

I agree that I don't really get that from Emilia Clarke's Daenerys but then I'm being unfair because I'd need to rewatch season 1. In my head I just hear her stern angry voice whenever I picture her.

I hate to say it, but Peter Dinklage was the second worst miscast. I understand that there aren't many working actors with dwarfism, and he's AMAZING. Not hating him at all. Obviously book Tyrion is far uglier and much more monstrous looking (let's be real--even in the show Tyrion is called handsome on at least one occasion by Margaery, and I think again later too). And it's my understand GRRM is really unhappy now with how he portrayed Tyrion's appearance. But it's really not that. Peter Dinklage is just too smurfing sympathetic. You're supposed to like book!Tyrion, but also understand that, even early on, there's a hint of something not very nice in him (see: him getting extremely angry that Catelyn outsmarted him, simply because it hurt his pride, not because it put him in danger). My only real issue with Dinklage was the awful accent he attempted! The softer, more sympathetic Tyrion was the work of the writers, presumably because he was a fan favourite and the writers love to pander to the fans. That and you can't really cut his nose off.

I don't quite agree with your assessment of early Tyrion. He comes across as being a kind and carefree fellow who just wants to be loved and empathises with cripples, bastards and broken things. His support (through truth as much as anything) to Jon, going out of his way to help Bran when he knew he'd receive less than a warm welcome at Winterfell and when he saved Catelyn from the clansmen all show a real kindness and empathy. His one flaw is his desire for retribution and vengeance on anyone who slights him.

It's easy to overlook that - for the time being - which is kind of the point. Don't we all support his desire to turn the Vale of Arryn into a smoking ruin after his false imprisonment and horrible treatment, both in the terrifying mindsmurf that is the Sky Cells - side note, I had forgotten how horrible they sound! ugh - and being brutally beaten by a man three times the size of him? The one little dark touch is when he sees the fate of Masha Heddle and clearly feels she deserves it when she actually had nothing whatsoever to do with Catelyn capturing him.

From memory, though, he is a vile and hateful person in ADWD and that vengeful streak is dialed up to 11. I guess it's like the Viserys journey that we never got to go on and again it's another tragedy.

[Bubba]

Was really hoping to get the 'All Lucky Sevens!' post in this thread but Jinx beat me to it... :(

[Jinx]

the what now? is rhaego tyrion?
Oh, boy. Do I have a theory for you. https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/30mat2/spoilers_all_ddt_a_neverbeforeseen_theory/



tyrion
I said a hint of something not as nice, but I still stand by saying that book!Tyrion isn't nearly as warm and kind as Peter Dinklage's portrayal (which is interesting, because everything I've read about him from everyone is that he's a total fucking asshole irl). The book paints more of a portrait of him as something closer to Littlefinger. He's cunning, not just clever, and his triumphs don't feel like "Aha!" of a hero with his hands on his hips and his chest out, and more like a smirk and rubbing his hands together.

But, again, I'd say he's one of my favorite book characters (or is at least right now in early days). I'd say first book chapters Tyrion > Dany > Catelyn = Arya > Sansa > Jon.

[Psychotic]

the what now? is rhaego tyrion?
Oh, boy. Do I have a theory for you. https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/30mat2/spoilers_all_ddt_a_neverbeforeseen_theory/Majestic.

Maybe her HotU vision of Rhaego being a silver haired lord in front of a burning city was meant to be Tyrion at the Blackwater.

[Jinx]

the what now? is rhaego tyrion?
Oh, boy. Do I have a theory for you. https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/30mat2/spoilers_all_ddt_a_neverbeforeseen_theory/Majestic.

Maybe her HotU vision of Rhaego being a silver haired lord in front of a burning city was meant to be Tyrion at the Blackwater.

Could be! Also, ties into your theory that Tyrion and Dany go Fire and Blood all over everyone's asses. Eh, eh?

[Jinx]

I don't know if you read fan-fiction, but apparently this one writes a definitive ending for the series, and is said to be super good. I'm planning on giving it a try once I finish the published series again.

https://archiveofourown.org/works/336407/chapters/543997

[Psychotic]

I read about a quarter of it once and it didn't really do it for me, sorry. :shobon: Adding a dozen more POVs to an already POV heavy story wasn't great (though I like Jeyne and Edmure having them) and the author had too much of a weird Mary Sue fixation with Val.

[Jinx]

How so?

And oof, yeah, adding more POVs is unnecessary. That said, if they had fun doing it, I'm glad. Fuck, they actually wrote a story, which is more than what our favorite fat boat captain is doing.

[Psychotic]

Val becomes Ygritte 2.0: Electric Boogaloo basically. And yeah fucking respect to the author for making it. Boat captain is hard at work, I just think he was nearly done but the shit hit the fan in 2015, he lost his mind and he's had to rewrite the whole thing.

[Jinx]

I think he's getting closer to done, what with the "if I don't have it done by June 2020, lock me in a volcano". Or at least, it sounds like he's got some hitch in his giddyup. The running theory is that he's probably unhappy with the show and doesn't want his opus to only have that ending.

[Psychotic]

https://warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.wordpress.com/2016/07/12/the-ulimate-winds-of-winter-resource/ this is a pretty good indicator of how the writing has been going.

[Jinx]

hahaha we're never getting it

[Jinx]

I've been thinking--the summary for Arya's TWoW chapters is about her time as Mercy, but the woman in the novel is Lady Stork. And I realized why they changed her name to Lady Crane: some gormless Americans would hear the accent as "Lady Stark" and start theorizing that Catelyn wasn't really dead (lol) and was wearing a face, or she was actually Lyanna Stark, or some distant Stark cousin and that she sent Jaqen H'ghar to recruit her to Faceless Men. Something stupid. You just know it.

[Psychotic]

I mean, they didn't think audiences could handle Asha Greyjoy or Robert Arryn, so...

[Jinx]

I'll give them Robert Arryn. Since we already have Robert Baratheon and Robb Stark. Although I guess they could have just called him Sweet Robert to differentiate.

[Jinx]

Something the show didn't get right with Arya (in early seasons, I'm not even going to touch on the shitshow that was Arya in later seasons): I don't think they did a good job of showing her vulnerability. Yes, even from the get-go, she was tough and fierce. But most of it is pretend; she's just a little girl, often put in situations that terrifies her. There wasn't much character growth in the show vs. in the books. I like fear cuts deeper than swords Arya, and how much she's fighting.

They did it with Dany too, and Cersei. D&D are really shitty at writing female characters. The bad ass moments are more bad ass when you know much they're giving to be there. A [person] can only be brave when they're afraid.

[Psychotic]

I agree. Arya started off as one of the best characters, as when she's ducking her way through King's Landing she's scared out of her mind and she's pushing herself. And then when the Night's Watch recruits are attacked by Amory Lorch again she pushes herself to take charge and lead these scared boys as best she can.

Once they ran out of book material for her in the show I think they really struggled to know what to do with her and instead just use her as a killing tool for plot lines that were going nowhere. Oh hey we didn't finish off that Frey loose end as we have no Lady Stoneheart, make Arya do it. Oh, right, Littlefinger is still alive, let's, uh, have her sort him out too. Oh smurf it I don't really know what we're doing with this Night King trout, let's have Arya kill him. There's no challenge or growth or anything worthwhile to her in the last two seasons.

As always I think they tried to pander to the fans because "Oh yeah, they like Arya as she's a BADASS, let's make her a BADASS!" but like, even the casual fans of the show at my workplace had enough of her by the end. Although the casual fans at my work had also had enough of the show in general by the end, so.

[Jinx]

The part where she's sneaking around the Red Keep, and she has to force herself to walk across the yard knowing she might be scene is pretty intense, honestly. But that's my point--she's a strong bad ass BECAUSE she's scared. Being fearless doesn't make someone cool; confronting your fears (in various ways) is what makes someone cool.

[Jinx]

Book 1 Jon: "Only this time the dream had gone further than before. In the dark he'd heard the scrape of stone on stone. When he turned he saw that the vaults were opening, one after the other. As the dead kings came stumbling from their cold back graves, Jon had woken in pitch-dark, his heart hammering."

Season 8 Jon: "The crypts are the safest place in Winterfell."



:shobon:

[Jinx]

The whole series is kind of disappointing in retrospect, but I just him my first real disappointment wall:

The scene where Jon and Sam swear themselves to the Night's Watch, and Ghost finds the (then unknown to the Brothers) wight corpses. It's TERRIFYING. The Brothers are all unsettled, talk about how the corpses didn't used to have blue eyes...maybe? Animals won't even go near them. And while I don't think the AAAH ZOMBIE reveal is really a reveal, I do think this chapter is written in such a way to make you feel real dread, and it's a shame knowing that none of it fucking means anything, ahahahahha.



Fuck GRRM's a good writer tho

[Psychotic]

I cannot see the book storyline for the Others being the same as the show's. I've said it before in this thread, but I'm convinced the concept of killing a White Walker killing its wights and the character of the Night King were invented purely for the show. If you can kill the Others just by killing one dude, what made them leave thousands of years ago? Clearly not killing the NK! I do think the Wall is coming down, although not via Viserion - who I think Daenerys will lose to either Euron or Aegon.

I mean, they're still not going to win, but that victory will cost more than a Jorah and a Theon.

I agree that GRRM is excellent at writing horror though. The opening chapter is bonechillingly good. You feel hunted by this otherworldly presence, just the way they feel cold. I also like the idea of them having more intelligence than their mute show counterparts by having their language that "sounds like the cracking of ice" and mocking Waymar Royce.

[Jinx]

Even the book has a better name for them. The Others is so much scarier than White Walkers.

[Freya]

https://warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.wordpress.com/2016/07/12/the-ulimate-winds-of-winter-resource/ this is a pretty good indicator of how the writing has been going.

You know, not that i'm an amazing writer, but now that i've finished a coherent novel myself that comes out to be 578 pages in paperback form in just about 6 weeks.... I'm really wondering wtf GRRM has been doing for the past few years. I mean 1500 pages, that'd be 18 weeks if I stayed at the same speed, which is really not even that fast. It's about 2000 words a day. But he pecks when he types doesn't he? And on an old school computer. So okay let's pad this out and give him double the time I would do it because of his slow typing and he's a bit more casual about writing. That's 36 weeks. So that's 9 months? That's still less than a year. Let's be like "okay he really has to edit as he goes cause it's just so incredibly massive and detailed of a story." Let's double it again. So 72 weeks. So that's still only 18 months. So a year and a half.

And he's at what 7 years or so now? Like wtf are you doing man? Have you re-wrote the entire thing 5 times now?

I know he's said he's a "gardener" as an author. Where he just plants seeds and he just waters it as he goes to see what it turned into. To me that sounds like what writers call "pantsing", or writing by the seat of your pants, basically he's just making trout up as he goes. He may have a few plots and ideas he has that he wants to hit but he wanders a bit when he is actually writing. This explains a lot about the show. He probably gave them his ideas but with how he writes, it could be wildly different on how we get there.

I think he procrastinates with the world building things he's put out. He doesn't know where those random plots he started are going so he procrastinates with history. Which is also a big thing with authors lmao. Have you ever met someone who is "writing" a story and they can tell you all the backstory about the whole world but when you ask them about the actual book and if you can read it or where they're at, they go "uhhhhhh about... that"

[Jinx]

He has definitely written himself into corners, especially because he's always coming up with new ideas, so he's bloating the shit out of the novels.

Also, the last book came out in 2010...so it's actually 9 years he's been at it. :)

[Scotty_ffgamer]

I have nothing to base this on really, but I personally think he got burnt out by ASoIaF. I haven’t really researched his writing methods outside of the fact that he’s a gardener/pantser; so I suppose it could also just be a problem of chronic rewriting and never being satisfied with what he has, but I don’t think that would make it take 9 years for the book. I also feel that after writing so many books that if he were still into the series, he would get faster at writing each book of comparable length.

That’s not to say he doesn’t like his series. I think if he fully stopped liking the story, he’d just churn out an unsatisfying conclusion and be done with it. I just don’t think he enjoys actually writing it anymore which ruins the motivation for trying to keep all of the different threads straight and to find ways to write himself out of the corners he has created. I could be wrong though.

[Freya]

I bet the fandom of the show really hit him too. Because people are liking things that aren't exactly what he did or aren't exact. The crazy fervor probably helped burn him out.

[Scotty_ffgamer]

And he has tons of people making comments about how he is going to die at any moment and we’re never getting the end. I’m sure that was all made worse by the shows popularity. If it were me, I’d just finish the story and then give instructions that it can’t be published until a year after my death or something just to spite people if I was getting annoyed by that every day.

[Psychotic]

I think he suffers from being a gardener because of the complexity of the story, having so many different strands and POV characters. It seems like it would be suited more to an architect. My impression is that the man is a perfectionist and rewrites a lot of his already completed manuscript pages.

[Jinx]

He's actually told his wife to dispose of any of his unpublished works when he dies. That's why everyone's so afraid about him dying--he's already says he has no intention of having anyone else write the books if he passes.

That's probably true, Psy, and he's also really good at making different character voices sound distinct. I know people joke about his description of food items, but he actually really is a pretty decent writer.

[Psychotic]

I'm intrigued to see how the situation with Rickon plays out in the books. He's wild out of control, near feral - a far cry from the weak child that Ramsay dealt with in the show. I can't imagine his time on Skagos will have calmed him down any! I am looking forward to seeing Davos's adventures up there, something the show didn't cover.

Still, I suppose if the book's ending loosely follows the show's he'd have to die for Sansa to reign as QitN or Lady of Winterfell. But then Wyman Manderly is calling him his liege lord so who knows.

[Jinx]

Maybe he'll fuck off north and live with Osha. She's basically raised him. By the time he's grown she'll be the only mom he knows.

[Freya]

Maybe he'll fuck off north and live with Osha. She's basically raised him. By the time he's grown she'll be the only mom he knows.

Yeah I can see that happening. He's such, as psy put, a feral child, he's probably more keen to be a wildling than a lordling. He would fuck off to the north and abdicate things for sansa

[Psychotic]

With that said, Rickon is also very family centred (although he is basically not much older than a toddler) in how he acts so I can't see him wanting to abandon them so easily.

I think A Clash of Kings Tyrion is my favourite character. So much of the book is dedicated to him and it's just a delight to see him playing and winning the game of thrones. He's challenged and tested to the peak of his abilities and he's actually winning. He's also incredibly smurfing ruthless and cold hearted at times too, and again it's easy as an audience to support him when it's people like Allar "Babykiller" Deem having their throats slit and thrown overboard. I can definitely see the seeds for dark Tyrion being planted here.

You see, it's there all along, throughout the entire book that everyone still smurfing despises him. Sure, they don't like Joffrey or Cersei a great deal either, but Tyrion is who the people really hate. And yet what he wants most of all is to be loved and despite his pragmatic and at times heroic defence of the city, it's so obvious he's going to be discarded like a used tissue. I find his S8 "oh no King's Landing burned this is a tragedy" stance untenable in the books.

[Jinx]

I think he was still willing to work past their cruelty until the trial for Joffrey's murder. That's really when her turned. I don't think he'd have cared Dany burned them, either. Also, considering how in the books he hopes Dany will give him Cersei so he can rape her before killing her, I really don't think he would have gone to such great lengths to ensure the future of Cersei and her child. Or Jaime, while we're at it--this is a relationship I think is possible to be salvaged in the book, but Tyrion fucking hates Jaime (and I don't blame him on this one, even as a Jaime stan).

[Freya]

Man you guys are making me want to read them again. I have so many books on my to read list though already.

[Psychotic]

I think he was still willing to work past their cruelty until the trial for Joffrey's murder. That's really when her turned. I don't think he'd have cared Dany burned them, either. Also, considering how in the books he hopes Dany will give him Cersei so he can rape her before killing her, I really don't think he would have gone to such great lengths to ensure the future of Cersei and her child. Or Jaime, while we're at it--this is a relationship I think is possible to be salvaged in the book, but Tyrion smurfing hates Jaime (and I don't blame him on this one, even as a Jaime stan).I guess the whole of ASoS is the turning point really, but I think it's the way he sets out his stall in ACoK. He specifically states to Shae his intention is to do something nobody will expect: Justice. And in his mind he delivers this and gives everything he smurfing has to save the city. His wildlings smurf up Stannis's supply lines, his chain blocks the bay and his use of wildfire was exemplary. His realisation that Joffrey and the Hound nope-ing out of there would be huge blows to morale and so leading a sortie himself showed outstanding leadership.

And then as he's lying there, recovering from being betrayed by his sister, everyone's view is "Oh, you want a medal? Piss off Imp" - while ozens of other people from both great and lesser houses are given Knighthoods, Lordships, lands and titles - I think that hurt him more than the trial did, Shae's betrayal aside. That and of course Jaime. I still think he has mixed feelings about Jaime.
Man you guys are making me want to read them again. I have so many books on my to read list though already.do it craven

Also, let's talk about Stannis. I've actually noticed a real more sentimental note to the man than I saw at first reading. I think he was affected by and envious of the relationship Ned and Robert had. Although he never said it directly, from the way he talks about what he went through in the rebellion, all he seemed to want was Robert's gratitude and respect. And to be fair, he did go through hell. The Siege of Storm's End sounds like actual hell on earth. For a teenager to lead his people through that is nothing short of extraordinary. I can see why he felt put out that it was Ned that Robert always turned to.

I also like how, despite the brutal way it ends between them and all the mocking/lecturing you see, both Stannis and Renly both clearly had affection for each other too. Stannis's bewilderment about the peach is oddly touching, as is Renly's insistence that Stannis (or his body) be treated well and not mutilated. It's such a difficult one to reconcile too, as to which one had the right of it. The two of them ruling together would've actually made for a great monarch!

[Scotty_ffgamer]

I’ve finally started reading the books again. I’ve only read the prologue so far, but I see myself getting through a good chunk of the first book tonight.

[Jinx]

YES, REREAD HYPE TRAIN

[Psychotic]

ONE OF US ONE OF US

but seriously isn't the prologue scary? That feeling of being somewhere so far from humanity, somewhere you're not meant to be, hunted by something other worldly. GRMM really nails that first chapter.

[Jinx]

It's incredibly well-written, but as I said earlier, I prefer the chapter when Jon and Sam take their vows.

[Scotty_ffgamer]

I had honestly forgotten how creepy that first chapter really was. I honestly can’t wait to read past where I left off the last time I tried to read the series. I’m excited to see all of the stuff I missed out from only really watching the show outside of the first book and part of the second.

[Jinx]

I had honestly forgotten how creepy that first chapter really was. I honestly can’t wait to read past where I left off the last time I tried to read the series. I’m excited to see all of the stuff I missed out from only really watching the show outside of the first book and part of the second.

Where'd you end up, buddy?

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

I prefer the chapter when Jon and Sam take their vows.

You may kiss the bride.

[Scotty_ffgamer]

I honestly can’t remember where I left off since my memory keeps mixing with the show. I almost want to say that I got the the Battle of Blackwater bay but I don’t know for sure. I feel like I read where Tyrion got his nose chopped off, but I could have just read that as something that was different between the show and books. I’ll know for sure where I left off once I start reading that book.

I wish I could remember why I even stopped reading. I think I just didn’t own the second book until a while after I had read the first, and when I started reading it might have been when my living situation got annoying. I wish I had my kindle paperwhite back then.

[Jinx]

Book!Robb is so much better than show!Robb. (Besides the smoking hot Richard Madden, ofc, there's a reason I'm a bannerman of Robb Stark Honour Posting in the great War of Shitpost Groups currently going on on FB.)

In the books he's just so much less brash. Everything he does he considers carefully and constantly second guesses himself. Something was lost in translation too by how he's portrayed in the show--that is, you don't get to see that Catelyn actually is really fucking smart, and conniving, and discerning. Motherly love wins out for her in the end, but she really was not a stupid character at all. Making Robb self-assured, stupid, reckless, made his clever moments feel a little less clever.

Also, the plot with Jeyne Westerling is SO much better than Talisa. Especially when it's likely that she was working for the Lannisters and there's possibility she drugged and raped Robb forcing his hand (a theory I've read in a couple places). I don't know. I appreciate the boy who's trying to do the right thing because he did the "wrong thing" (modern commentaries on sexuality aside) than the guy who just lets himself fall in love with this woman he doesn't know because???? reasons even though he knows he has a commitment to keep.

[Psychotic]

Agreed! Although Some of the artwork of book Robb with his long hair also looks pretty great.

Watching him step up and grow has been really good. Catelyn sets him on the path to being a good leader and he then walks it himself, it's excellent to see. Catelyn is definitely not an idiot and is wise counsel for Robb when he shows that vulnerability and uncertainty. Unlike many of the leaders in the series, he knows when to seek the wisdom of others but also when to challenge their views and have courage in their convictions.

I've just reached the Jeyne Westerling part. Bless her, she's so cute. God damn the hints about what's to come are really right there though. Tywin is so fucking smug about it. Also wtf so Jeyne (and her hag of a mother) are descended from Maggy the Frog? As in the Valonqar Maggy the Frog? Jesus how had I never noticed that? I wonder if that's going to come into play later on, as she is still alive and I think Jaime meets her in Feast iirc.

[Jinx]

I know it's silly to constantly be saying book!character is better than show!character, because that's almost always going to be the case, but I feel like book!Robb and show!Robb are just very different. I know part of that is because they wanted audiences to love him more and see him as a main character handsome savior to make the Red Wedding that much more impactful.

I'm actually curious if I'll get to a point where I prefer a show character to their book character*.

*outside of characters who were greatly expanded on, it's not fair to prefer show Pod, Bronn, Missandei when they're much bigger characters

[Scotty_ffgamer]

I know it has already been said in here, but i always forget how young most of the characters are in the books.

I’ve ended up not having a ton of time for reading like I thought I would, so I’ve only really made it to the part where Jon is saying his goodbyes before leaving with Benjen for the Wall. I’m definitely seeing that most of the show characters feel like shadows of the book characters. Basically, everything Jinx has said about characters that I’ve read about so far, I agree with.

[Jinx]

Just got to the point in the first book when Yoren rescues Arya.

Just wanna pour one out for ya boy. Baelor is one of the BEST episodes of the entire tv series. Ned seeing Arya, seeing Yoren and yelling "Baelor!" with only the hope he might hear him, might understand him. It's really a beautiful scene, and not at all surprising that GRRM wrote it--and it definitely has hints of the author going back and correcting his working 20 years later. And then Ned looking up moments before his death, hoping to see one last glimpse of his daughter, but she's not there. Is she gone? Was she hurt? Did Yoren find her? Is she safe? He'll never know.


BUT. Book!Yoren finds her without the help of Eddard Stark and saves her anyways, because it's the good and right thing to do. And Benjen is his brother, as much as Eddard Stark ever was, and Arya is his family because of that. You know.

For the record, I think that both mediums get it right, but tv definitely has the edge here. I just want to point out what a bad ass Yoren is.

[Jinx]

"The gift of a sword, even a sword as fine as Longclaw did not make him Mormont. Nor was he Aemon Targaryen,"*

*Of course Lyanna wasn't stupid enough to give him the same name as his fucking brother.



Jon confirmed Aemon Targaryen.

[Jinx]

Jon’s moonlight ride ��������������

[Psychotic]

"The gift of a sword, even a sword as fine as Longclaw did not make him Mormont. Nor was he Aemon Targaryen,"*

*Of course Lyanna wasn't stupid enough to give him the same name as his fucking brother.



Jon confirmed Aemon Targaryen.ohhhhhhhhhh shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

I missed that one! God damn. Yes yes yes.

Also yeah, it took me by surprise that "Baelor!" didn't happen in the book. A very good addition.

[Jinx]

That was me saying that Jon's Moonlight Ride is honestly just an exceptional chapter. Not a huge book!Jon fan, because the Wall and its story doesn't interest me too much, but chills dude.

[Jinx]

Finally finished A Game of Thrones and I am very much currently Team Stark. Book Cat and Robb are just so good.

[Jinx]

Goddamn Patchface is such a creepy fucker, and the show was lesser for not having him in it. The twisted Tom Bombadil of ASoIaF.

[Psychotic]

Patchface is something else, yeah. I am enjoying how many people - House of the Undying, Patchface and the Ghost of High Heart - all straight up predict the Red Wedding but it still remained as a shock to me the first time I read it. Like, okay, this is all just weird creepy meaningless nonsense, whatever, let's move past it. And second time around you can see how it's all right there in front of you.

[Jinx]

Dude! I know! I know! Oh, oh, oh!

[Psychotic]

The Battle for Castle Black is completely different but no less awesome and intense.

Also dude the Nightfort is fucking spooky as hell. I forgot the talking door, Jesus.

[Jinx]

Right, so I've still been a lazy reader (ADHD is so cool, guys). But. The poison used on Joffrey is the same poison used on Melisandre! The Purple Wedding wasn't hinted at, per se, but keen-eyed readers could have seen Joffrey's death coming with the headpiece Sansa was given.

[Jinx]

Did Patchface predict the burning of the Sept of Barlow? It hasn’t happened yet, but I think most people are in agreement it will. He starts singing one of his songs about the colors of fire (green, blue, black) during the burning of the Seven on Dragonstone.

[Psychotic]

It's possible, although having looked through everything Patchface has said he's really only accurately predicted the Red Wedding. You can kind of read more into what he's saying if you want, but I also think a lot of what he says is utter nonsense.

[Scotty_ffgamer]

I’m about 75% through A Clash of Kings now, and Ygritte has just been introduced. Reading this part was new to me, so I know for sure I’ve passed where I left off back when I tried to read before. I still don’t know where I left off last time as stuff that happens in the show is mixing with what im reading, making it familiar enough to be hard to pinpoint.

[Psychotic]

How are you enjoying it so far?

I'm in the home stretch of ADWD in my re-read through. I've gained new appreciation for characters not in the show like, well, basically everyone in fucking Essos.

[Scotty_ffgamer]

I’m enjoying it a good amount. It’s been a while since I’ve seen season 2 of the show, so I can’t remember we’ll enough to comment on the differences between the two. I can say that I still appreciate the characters more in the books since we get to see inside their heads more.

[Psychotic]

Yeah - for example I was very confused when Orrell died straight away (I can say this as you have just passed that point!) when I remember him so well as an angsty friend zone fuck in the show. Then Longspear Ryk was someone I had completely forgotten about and his existence was a pleasant surprise.

You have a real treat coming up at the end of the book. I really enjoyed book Blackwater. I must rewatch the episode to see how they compare.

[Scotty_ffgamer]

I’m at the point now where Arya is escaping Harrenhal with Gendry and Hot Pie. I really enjoyed the Blackwater segments, but I’ve always preferred battle scenes to be limited to the eyes and mind of one character rather than more of a top-down all-seeing view of the battlefield. I like jumping between Tyrion, Davos, and Sansa. I also really enjoy reading about what’s going on with Dany much more than watching her segments in the show.

I should have this book finished by tomorrow if not tonight. I’m excited to see what lies ahead.

[Rocket Edge]

So I binge-watched GoT viewing it for the first time from 6 weeks ago. Best non-comedy series I've watched hands down, but the ending pissed me off. I was aware of the mixed to critical reception Season 8 got on social media but all I can say is the story arc for Daenarys didn't make any sense. Also, why you go and kill off my homeboy Varys like that? :cry:

[Scotty_ffgamer]

I wish I would have just read these before watching the show at this point. I would’ve liked the fates of some of the characters to be a surprise. That’s my own fault though.

I’m on the third book now. I last read where Sansa has met Olenna Tyrell for the first time. I thought that was a fun sequence. Had I not seen the show, I would probably be right with Sansa trying to figure out what the Tyrell’s play here was. I liked Sansa’s struggle between wanting to say what a monster Joffrey is and not trusting these new people since her trust has failed her every time.

I kind of like how Robb’s stuff is all happening off screen and we just hear about it from the various sides discussing his battles. It kind of puts us in the shoes of the rest of his family, awaiting more news and hoping it isn’t bad. I wouldn’t have minded a chapter looking through Robb’s eyes and hearing his thoughts about his victories, but for the most part I like reading the skepticism and worry of his mother more.

[Psychotic]

The third book is arguably the best, although I think the next two are superb they're something of an acquired taste.

I would've liked to have seen the world through Robb's eyes and not just rely on Catelyn's interpretation too, and the show expanded him slightly and gave him more time on his own. Although if you think about it, we have no PoV for any of the five kings which I think was a deliberate choice - we judge the kings through the eyes of others.

[Scotty_ffgamer]

I’ve now finished reading the chapter where Tyrion is told he will marry Sansa and Cersei is told she will have to remarry.

As much as I feel Sam is one of the weaker characters, I did enjoy his first POV chapter. The Others and the wights remain pretty creepy, and I do enjoy how unsettling it is to read of their sudden appearances. I also kind of liked the thoughts of Sam as they are fleeing back to the wall as he keeps saying he can’t go on while continuously taking one more step. It felt similar to when I read Stephen King’s The Long Walk as the character keeps walking despite the pain, wanting to stop and rest but knowing he’ll die if he does. That’s a short book, and I do recommend it to any looking for something new to read. I feel like it is one of his best works, and the similarity made the chapter more interesting to me.

[Scotty_ffgamer]

Just finished the chapter where Rob and the rest are arriving for Edmure’s wedding. It’s somewhat stressful knowing what is about to happen and expecting it to happen at every Cat chapter.

[Psychotic]

Just finished the chapter where Rob and the rest are arriving for Edmure’s wedding. It’s somewhat stressful knowing what is about to happen and expecting it to happen at every Cat chapter.Remember the game the Walders played? And how the word mayhaps means you don't have to follow an oath? Welp.

Also shout out to Ryman Frey who says "If you would follow me, my father awaits". A reminder that his father is Stevron Frey and not Lord Walder Frey...

[Scotty_ffgamer]

I knew there was something important from the game the Walders played, but I couldn’t remember what. You saved me from looking for that section again.

[Scotty_ffgamer]

Just finished Joffrey’s death last night. All hail King Tommen.

Edit: I liked all the bits where Joffrey talks about Robert. You can tell in some ways he looked up to and respected the man he thought was his father at least in terms of the kind of king that Joffrey should be.

[Psychotic]

I also enjoy hearing Stannis refer to Robert. I may have mentioned it in this thread previously but I'm convinced the only reason he disliked Ned was because he was jealous.

[Jinx]

Serious question:

I haven't really read much of 2 during this reread. But, those of you reading with fresh eyes/those of you who have read the series many times?

In AGoT Ned intends for someone he trust in his household to take Arya and Sansa to Dragonstone and only show the direwolf once they get in sight of the castle. Knowing how Stannis is, do you think he would have listened to Ned (or his friend, by proxy), protected his children, and ultimately allied with him?

I really do think he would. Stannis isn't a warm man, and he didn't love Ned, but Ned was willing to recognize his claim. Stannis (at least so far) isn't cruel for the sake of cruelty, and I don't think (at this point in the series) he would have hurt Arya or Sansa. If Ned has defied Stannis, however, I can see him meting out justice to them on Ned's behalf.

[Psychotic]

Yep, Stannis and Ned would definitely have been allies. Given how desperate Stannis is to become bffs with Jon when they meet I kind of think he wants his own Ned and would've been thrilled to have the OG... though he never would have said so.

[Jinx]

At the very least, it would have given a lot of credibility to his claim vis a vis Joffrey being a bastard. Most people respected Ned Stark, even the ones who didn't like him. Strictly for a strategic standpoint, Ned would have been an extremely powerful ally.

[Scotty_ffgamer]

I really liked any of Stannis’ references to his brothers. I feel like all 3 Baratheons ruling together would have made for a different and better kingdom.

Either way, I agree that Stannis and Ned would have been allies. Really, all Stannis seems to want is to be recognized and acknowledged. He’s jealous of the relationship Ned had with Robert, and that seems to be his only issue with Ned.

I also don’t think that (without Melisandre’s influence) Stannis would harm Ned’s children even if Ned was against Stannis after the children would be there. He cares about justice and the letter of the law, but I think he seems very fair. Stark children might become hostages at worst, but I don’t see Stannis punishing them for the slights of their father.

[Scotty_ffgamer]

I’ve now started A Feast for Crows. I’ve only read the prologue and the first chapter with The Prophet, but I’m enjoying it so far. I’m a bit fuzzy on what happens from this point on from the show for whatever reason, but I’m sure as I get into it I’ll still not be surprised by too much.

A Storm of Swords is probably my favorite so far. It had a lot more of the big moments and deaths than I thought it would going in. It also reminded me of Lady Stoneheart, and I’m pretty interested in finally learning more about that situation.

[Psychotic]

Did you spot the return of Jaqen H'Ghar in the Feast for Crows prologue?

[Scotty_ffgamer]

I didn’t think about it when and read it last night, but i was thinking that had to be him today at work.

[Scotty_ffgamer]

Is also like to say that thanks to the filters on this forum, my brain always “corrects” the word trout every time I read it in these books.

[Ayen]

Is also like to say that thanks to the filters on this forum, my brain always “corrects” the word trout every time I read it in these books.

A wolf with a trout in its mouth? That would be silly!

[Scotty_ffgamer]

I’m now on A Dance with Dragons. I did enjoy A Feast for Crows a good amount. Soon I’ll be with everyone else waiting for the rest of the series that may never happen.

[Psychotic]

Feast is always controversial - people either love it or hate it! Dance is a great book too. A lot of people hate the Daenerys chapters and I have to admit, the first time around I did too but having read through them again I enjoyed them a lot more.

[Scotty_ffgamer]

A Feast for Crows definitely has a different feel to it a lot of the time, but i liked it a lot. So far I’m liking Dance with Dragons a little less, but it’s still enjoyable.

[Jinx]

Feast is always controversial - people either love it or hate it! Dance is a great book too. A lot of people hate the Daenerys chapters and I have to admit, the first time around I did too but having read through them again I enjoyed them a lot more.

no one wants to hear about your scat fetish, you degenerate

[Ayen]

I heard A Feast for Crows is basically just a filler book and was told to skip it altogether.

[Psychotic]

no one wants to hear about your scat fetish, you degeneratewhoa dude mark your spoilers

if they'd actually included that in the show it would've redeemed S6-8 and don't pretend like you wouldn't love to see your girl emilia acting that out
I heard A Feast for Crows is basically just a filler book and was told to skip it altogether.You heard wrong. Also, as an Arya fan you can find out why the show version is a terrible and one dimensional and the book character is actually good and interesting.

[Scotty_ffgamer]

I guess I it’s only filler insomuch as which characters you care about. Feast and Dance cover roughly the same time period, but one book focuses more on the south, and the other book focuses more on the North and Danaerys. I guess Feast doesn’t have all the bombshells like the book before either.

[Ayen]

I've been meaning to ask Jinx something.

How did you feel when Arya killed Littlefinger? :smug:

[Jinx]

Bored.

[Scotty_ffgamer]

Ever since we got our puppy, my reading has slowed down a lot. She wakes up super early, and I find myself struggling to stay awake as I read. So for a while, I can generally just get a chapter a day.

Anyways, I’m a little over halfway through A Dance With Dragons. I will say that it’s not holding my attention as well as the other books, but I am enjoying seeing a lot of the differences from the show.

[Scotty_ffgamer]

I’ve now finished A Dance with Dragons, and I’m finally with everyone else in waiting for the rest of the series to come out.

I think I just don’t really care that much about most of the Meereen stuff until the end. I still enjoyed reading the book, but I think it is my least favorite of the bunch. Normally the books that are mostly setting things up for the endgame don’t bother me, so I can’t fully put my finger on what fully bothers me. It’s probably just because I usually read a series after all books are already out, so I usually don’t have to wait for the payoff.

[Psychotic]

Glad you finished it and relatively enjoyed it!

I think most people hate Meereen. This essay series gave me a new perspective on it and might be worth your time having a read: https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/09/27/untangling-the-meereenese-knot-part-i-who-poisoned-the-locusts/

[Scotty_ffgamer]

Basically from the pit onward is where I’m more okay with the Meereen plot line. I pretty much already thought about and agreed with the stuff in that article as I was reading. The Shavepate is who I pretty much think did the poisoning. I’d also like to note just how much Barristan says he isn’t interested in nor does he have the ability to play the game of thrones. He also mentions how those of the Kingsguard who have involved themselves in the game are only met with misfortune if I remember correctly. Either way, I feel he’d be easy to manipulate in this scenario where he is feeling completely lost.

My main problem is that I don’t really care for the characters in Meereen, nor do I really care for the politics there. That’s not to say I won’t grow to like the plot line, but currently it was more setting things up to the more interesting events that I’m sure will happen in Winds of Winter.

[Bubba]

76987

[Freya]

The shame about them rushing through the series was to set themselves up for future things, like the next star wars. But due to the backlash they got for rushing the ending, they were dropped from those future projects.

The delicious karma.

[Aulayna]

Game of Thrones more like Game of Groans amirite.

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

77438

House of the Dragon will start filming next year.

Saw that the cast has just added Matt Smith, Olivia Cooke, and Emma D'arcy.

Are you looking forward to this show, or are you still sour from the final Game of Thrones season?

I know there was another spinoff show starring Naomi Watts that got to the point where they shot the pilot, but it was cancelled. Hope that doesn't happen to this one.

I read that one of the reasons House of the Dragon was picked up instead of the other one was because it's based on Fire & Blood, and they decided to go with the show based on a book so they could have a road map.

Imagine that.

[Jinx]

Targaryens are the least interesting part of a series that absolutely botched itself. If this show gets more than one season, I’ll eat a sock. Pass.

[Shauna]

I'm surprised they're pushing ahead given how much GoT has just fallen off the popular radar

[Shlup]

I'm surprised they're pushing ahead given how much GoT has just fallen off the popular radar

I dunno, it can still redeem itself, I think. The last season was only bad because it was rushed--the worldbuilding itself was still fantastic.

[Strider]

Fire and Blood rules, so I'm very interested to see them get back on track now that they have a text to build off of again.

[feedtaleten]

I got chills watching this. The next two weeks are gonna suck in anticipation

[krissy]

what happens in two weeks?

i still havent' finished this show, just stopped halfwya in the last season, cba

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

what happens in two weeks?

i still havent' finished this show, just stopped halfwya in the last season, cba

I think it's just a bot saying hello :sebastian:

[krissy]

but winter is over!!

[Jinx]

hbo did announce like 3 or 4 new got spinoffs so

[Freya]

Guess what? This thread aint dead. Have some new content!

Wg86eQkdudI

I've literally been sharing GoT teasers and info with you for over a decade now. You're welcome, EoFF.

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/game-of-thrones-jon-snow-spinoff-1235167415/

Jon Snow series reportedly in the works.

Get ready to continue to know nothing.

[Psychotic]

Not sure how I feel about that. A part of me is intrigued, but I think a larger part of me is still trying to permanently erase the huge bag they fumbled from my memory. I can't get past the idea that they wouldn't just have Arya show up out of nowhere to kill whoever Jon's new nemesis is!

[Quindiana Jones]

Yeah, they've very much poisoned the well by demonstrating total mismanagement of 4/8 seasons of GoT.

It's hilarious how little the public eye is focussed on any other GoT-related shit due to how bad it ended.

[Loony BoB]

Not sure how I feel about that. A part of me is intrigued, but I think a larger part of me is still trying to permanently erase the huge bag they fumbled from my memory. I can't get past the idea that they wouldn't just have Arya show up out of nowhere to kill whoever Jon's new nemesis is!
"It was me, Arya Stark, aaaaaaaaaaall along!"

kudos to anyone who gets that reference

[Quindiana Jones]

It was a disservice to Grenn not to show them fighting off the giant. That could have been such an amazing piece of TV. Close quarters desperate battle with a giant. I can imagine them hacking away whilst being batted away one by one, until the giant grabs Grenn and slams him into the ground, hard. With his last bit of strength, Grenn throws his shattered body at the giant's face and buries his sword deep into its skull. And then they die in the position we find them. Would have been amazing to watch, and His Magnificence The Beard definitely deserved it.

So, they straight up did this with Lyanna Mormont, and I demand writer's credit.

[Lone Wolf Leonhart]

Loved the first episode of Hot D.

It feels nice to have people in a joyful spirit about Game of Thrones again.

[Loony BoB]

Wow! Two episodes in and this series already has 264 pages. ;)

I enjoyed the first two eps, yeah =]