Game of Thrones: House of the Dragon!

[Del Murder]

Are you sure he doesn't just put it in there for the hell of it?

[The Man]

If he were just putting it there for the hell of it then there wouldn't be such in-depth examination of the psychological toll the misogyny of the setting takes on his characters. Cersei, for example, would not be even remotely the same person in a world that wasn't so tainted by misogyny. The misogyny of the setting played a major role in shaping her into the person she is. She is far from the only one; the misogyny is a direct influence on the plotline. If it were there and not commented on, then we could assume he was only putting it in to shock readers; but because it is such a major influence on the behaviour of characters, it's safe to assume that he's deliberately putting it in the story to comment on the effects it has.

[Ouch!]

You may not have read past book two, but you saw Sunday's episode and Cersei's confrontation of Tywin. You tell me if the misogyny has any purpose in the narrative or if it's just in there for the hell of it.

[Del Murder]

I was under the impression that scene was just for the show since Cersei isn't a POV character in the books (and was a more minor character in the first two books).

And I was more referring to the rape scenes.

[chionos]

Del evades successfully.

Counters with rape.

Ouch! responds with...

[Jinx]

I am so high right now, and the conversation going on in this thread is just blowing my mind.


Also, I'm pretty sure Pike posted this with me in mind. xD






Speaking of this whole conversation:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/30dea8414734d62bab41cb78a4eff91a/tumblr_mfbgazkMSM1s11bbpo1_400.jpg

http://24.media.tumblr.com/11df218356565c55f68fe77b51b4afed/tumblr_mfbbrfUmUl1s11bbpo1_400.jpg

http://25.media.tumblr.com/620ae587bac26e99620ec79dcf56b1a5/tumblr_mfqbx2Ugdx1s11bbpo1_1280.jpg

http://25.media.tumblr.com/35b7c50d7e483d8034d411cae55bcc1b/tumblr_mfetizyvEj1s11bbpo1_500.jpg

[Miriel]

Characters in work of fiction are allowed to express worldviews without the implication that said worldview has been endorsed.

I think you guys are missing the point of me pointing out the stupidity of Brienne's comment.

First, whether or not a line is contextually sound does not and SHOULD NOT influence whether or not an audience member can find that line to be offensive. Tossing a kid out a window is offensive. Chopping off a horse's head is offensive. Just because these things make sense within the confines of the story, does not negate the offensiveness.

I think it would be bizarre to watch or read or hear something dumb and think, "What's the context? Racist/sexist/medieval world? Ok, offensive remarks check out, no problem here."

Me thinking her comments are dumb does not mean that I think the comments are somehow breaking the show.

And beyond that, Westeros does not seem like a world in which people, unless they're fabulously wealthy and spoiled, can afford to sulk. I would imagine that regular people, women included, know how to hustle and survive. If you look at all the female characters on the show, some may be batshit insane or narcissistic or bland and naive or clever or strong, but few are just willing to lay down and die. So I'm wondering who Brienne was thinking about when she was imagining women sniveling and giving up.

Just in terms of the show alone, there are issues of sexism and racism that can't be waved away with the "It's how it was in the medieval period" excuse. Which btw, historical accuracy can't always be the go-to excuse when dealing with fantasy anyhow. The gratuitous showing of female nudity versus male nudity is an example of this. It's interesting because Rome actually had a ton of male nudity in addition to the female nudity, so it's not like HBO is patently against showing some dick.

As for the books, I only read part of the first book and found that I really didn't like Martin's writing style. The criticism he gets for the rape and sexualization of females doesn't seem to be that he includes it in his story, but the fact that he does it so overwhelmingly often. Depiction is not endorsement, most people get that. But when there is a LOT of sexism and racism in a fictional work where the creator pretty has absolute control over what does and does not happen within that fictional work, then you can understand why there might be incredulity and questions. I don't think Game of Thrones is a sexist work, even though sexism is depicted. I DO think that is some unintentional sexism and racism beyond what can be attributed to the integrity of the story and the themes. I also think that using rape as the ultimate BAD THING that could happen to a women, always and constantly, is most definitely a crutch and can be lazy or unimaginative.

Tigana is a fantasy book and much better written (although not a better story in my opinion) that does deal with rape and torture and whatnot. The writer just has a more careful touch with it.

[Formalhaut]

:kaoindif:I've lost interest in this thread.

[Quindiana Jones]

Question: can "appoint" be used as an appropriate un-negation of "disappoint"? Oh god, that doesn't even look like a word right now. I guess it doesn't really matter, since I did just prefix "negation".

Miriel never fails to appoint.

... or should it be "always fails to disappoint"? :confused:

[Ouch!]

I was under the impression that scene was just for the show since Cersei isn't a POV character in the books (and was a more minor character in the first two books).

And I was more referring to the rape scenes.
Cersei, the woman who started the war by plotting to kill her husband, the King of Westeros, and whose exposed incestuous relationship is the linchpin for the entire war of succession that forms the basis for the majority of the series's plot is a minor character? And she is a point-of-view character, just not in either of the books you've read. While Cersei demanding acknowledgment from her father and wanting Casterly Rock happens before she gets any chapters, it is from the books.

Regarding rape: how about Cersei preparing to kill herself and Sansa to spare them rape if King's Landing were to fall in the Battle of the Blackwater?


First, whether or not a line is contextually sound does not and SHOULD NOT influence whether or not an audience member can find that line to be offensive. Tossing a kid out a window is offensive. Chopping off a horse's head is offensive. Just because these things make sense within the confines of the story, does not negate the offensiveness.

I think it would be bizarre to watch or read or hear something dumb and think, "What's the context? Racist/sexist/medieval world? Ok, offensive remarks check out, no problem here."

Me thinking her comments are dumb does not mean that I think the comments are somehow breaking the show.

I didn't say that. In fact, I specifically said when I first brought it up:


To be clear, I'm not suggesting that anyone is accusing the show itself of being misogynist or that it's not allowed to have characters who are, but it is a step that I've seen far too many people take.

I happen to find a lot of the stuff that happens in the television series offensive, too. I just don't have a problem with fiction depicting that which I find offensive. Neither the show nor books are glorifying rape or sexism, it's merely presenting them as a reality of the fictional world. You both may disagree with me, but I do think that this serves a purpose for the narrative. Beyond that, I'd even say that the lack of "careful touch" is intentional. I don't think Martin is trying to be even remotely careful in his frank and casual portrayal of rape and misogyny. I'd argue that's part of the point.

[Pike]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/5e55a105715a8061060e6030148d160c/tumblr_mff46eeQMk1s11bbpo1_500.jpg

[Miriel]

Beyond that, I'd even say that the lack of "careful touch" is intentional. I don't think Martin is trying to be even remotely careful in his frank and casual portrayal of rape and misogyny. I'd argue that's part of the point.
If an author is not being thoughtful and judicious in his use of rape and sexual violence against women, then he is being lazy or using it liberally for shock value. To use rape to show how dark a world is, to use rape as character development for a female, to use the prevention of rape as character development for a male, to use rape to show moral ambiguity in a character, to use rape to show who is a villain, to use rape to highlight "THIS IS A DANGEROUS SITUATION!" to use rape to build suspense, to use rape in all these ways many times over means that you are using rape as a literary crutch.

I actually don't think that the show has been gratuitous in the rape depictions. I hear the book tosses around rape like it's candy though. But having given up on the books (which is a rarity for me), I don't know how much the rape facilitates the story and how much Martin just uses it because he doesn't know what else to use when dealing with female characters.

Also, when I mention the careful touch, I didn't mean that Tigana didn't use rape frankly or boldly. More that when rape was mentioned, it was effective and seamless. And not gratuitous.

[NorthernChaosGod]

You people are ruining the thread.

Also, isn't Iwan Rheon supposed to be playing Ramsay Bolton? I'm surprised more people aren't commenting on this. I KNOW SOME OF YOU READ THE BOOKS.


I loved it.

Totally going back to this set too!

That's my girl.

[Bunny]

Also, isn't Iwan Rheon supposed to be playing Ramsay Bolton? I'm surprised more people aren't commenting on this. I KNOW SOME OF YOU READ THE BOOKS.

No. He's playing Reek right now. That one comes later.

[Del Murder]

Cersei, the woman who started the war by plotting to kill her husband, the King of Westeros, and whose exposed incestuous relationship is the linchpin for the entire war of succession that forms the basis for the majority of the series's plot is a minor character? And she is a point-of-view character, just not in either of the books you've read. While Cersei demanding acknowledgment from her father and wanting Casterly Rock happens before she gets any chapters, it is from the books.
Yes she is a minor character in the first two books. She's barely in A Clash of Kings. She may be a catalyst for much that has gone on but that doesn't make her a major character. She has a much bigger role in the show and I think her character on the show has been handled much better. Her scenes alone with Joffrey or her father have shown me a lot more about her than I read in the first two novels. I think you are letting your future knowledge of what follows and what you've seen of the show to mask the content of the first two novels which you may not have read as recently.


Regarding rape: how about Cersei preparing to kill herself and Sansa to spare them rape if King's Landing were to fall in the Battle of the Blackwater?
That's actually a good example of how to do it well. It conveyed the sense of fear and how the spoils of war work in Westeros. A good example of a gratuitous scene is when The Mountain randomly rapes some innkeeper's daughter as payment for insulting him and then has each of his men take a turn. That was completely unnecessary as it was already clear what an imposing and fearsome figure The Mountain was. Rape was used as a crutch in that scene just to make him look as bad as possible. It was also disgusting.

[Bunny]

She is a major character like Varys and Littlefinger are major characters. They play a much larger role behind the scenes than they do in the forefront, like Ned or Arya does. Their influence on other characters, specifically Cersei's influence on the events mentioned by Ouch! and in her failed attempts at guiding Joffrey as king, make her a fairly important character in the overall story, both in the books and the show.

[Del Murder]

Varys and Littlefinger get more characterization in the first two books than Cersei does, but I will concede that she is important for plot reasons. When you ask me who GoT or ACoK is about, though, Cersei Lannister would be far from my lips.

[The Man]

By book five, Cersei is a much more developed character than Varys or Littlefinger. We don't understand at all what Varys or Littlefinger want (and Martin has confirmed they will never be viewpoint characters because "they know too much"), but Cersei's thought processes are clearly and thoroughly documented out.

I really don't think the depictions of rape in the series are generally gratuitous. Martin may be a fantasy author, but he's striving for realism as much as possible (he's stated this explicitly several times). Rape happens a lot in war. Rape happened a lot in medieval history. The story depicts a medieval setting which is largely based off our own history and happens to be in the midst of a brutal war.

That's not to say there aren't instances of it where it's lazy writing, but I don't think for the most part that he is using it because he has nothing else to fall back on; he is using it because it is what happens in war. It is not as if Martin shies away from other atrocities, either; the horrific tortures inflicted on others by the Bloody Mummers (which, admittedly, include rape, but go far beyond it as well) are proof of that.

And The Mountain had no reason to rape the inkeeper's daughter? When do rapists ever have reason to rape? Most rapists are serial rapists, which is a fact large numbers of people seem to forget. If you depict a person committing rape once and then never doing it again, that is not a realistic depiction of what usually happens in real life. I would say he becomes much more vile because he keeps doing it over and over. This is another reason real-life rapists are so vile as well.

It's crude, it's brutal, and it's not even remotely subtle, but that's the point. War is crude, it's brutal, and it's not even remotely subtle. If people had any idea what war actually entails in real life, it wouldn't happen so much.

[Del Murder]

I don't think you understand. I'm not trying to get into the head of The Mountain. Smurf that guy. I only mean there's no reason to depict that in the story other than for gratuity and shock value.

Look, this is a fantasy story. Not a biopic on the brutality and inhumanity of war. There's freaking dragons in this story. So saying that this is meant to be a realistic depiction of the brutality of war is a stretch. The guy has a fetish for violence and he's putting it in his books because he can.

What war was Martin in?

[The Man]

There is reason, though. As I stated, most rapists are serial rapists. Depicting characters raping repeatedly drives this point, which is very frequently ignored in Western media, home thoroughly.

I believe Martin was a conscientious objector during the Vietnam War, but he is extremely well read about military history and I'm sure he has plenty of friends who served.

[Pheesh]

"Post and subscribe to the GoT thread" they said. "It'll be fun" they said.

-__-

[Aulayna]

I loved it.

Totally going back to this set too!

That's my girl.

:love:

[Ouch!]

The guy has a fetish for violence and he's putting it in his books because he can.

This is exactly the kind of statement that I think is entirely misplaced. Because his writing has loads of violence, he has a fetish for violence, and it's something he puts in just because he can? Depictions of violence in fiction are not an endorsement nor a celebration of said violence. Or misogyny. Or rape. Or racism. Or anything. Does this sound like a guy who has a fetish for violence?

Martin on war in fantasy:

"War is so central to fantasy... and yet it's these bloodless wars where the heroes are killing unending Orcs, and the heroes are not being killed... I think that if you're going to write about war and violence then show the cost - show how ugly it is, show both sides of it. There's also the other side (which sometimes gets me in trouble with the opposite side of the political spectrum): the glory of war. Those of us who are opposed to war tend to try to pretend it doesn't exist, but if you read the ancient historical sources... people are always talking about the banners that 'stirred the heart'... I think that if you're going to write about that period then you should reflect honestly what it's about and capture both sides of it..."

He freely admits that there's something glorious about war, but there's a reason that he gets to the gritty, brutal aspects as well. That we're having this discussion at all, debating whether Martin goes too far in his depiction of violence and brutality and rape means that he's making his point pretty damned well. You're uncomfortable because of how prevalent that material is in his books. He's putting that in his books because that's the way things were and it should make you uncomfortable. He's not glorifying it. He's condemning it.

Edit: Also from the horse's mouth, so to speak, on his female characters trying to assert themselves in a male-dominated world and if it's a feminist statement:

"You could certainly interpret it that way. I don't presume to say I'm making a statement of this type or that type. But it is certainly a patriarchal society, I am trying to explore some of the ramifications of that. I try to write women as people, just as I try to write any other characters. Strong and weak, and brave and cowardly, and noble and selfish. It has been very gratifying to me how many women read my work and how much they like at least some of my female characters."

[Del Murder]

Fair enough. :D Thanks for doing the research.

[Aulayna]

Del Murder: taking his role as Tywin to the next level

[Ouch!]

Nice edit, buddy. :D

[Del Murder]

I play a game of shadows. Also, like Tywin I will never fully concede. He can do it for all those reasons and still have a feitsh for it. I will never bow down to any man! My legacy must be preserved!

[Ouch!]

A game of shadows? I wouldn't say either Varys or Littlefinger are loyal to Tywin.

[Del Murder]

Did we have a Varys?

EDIT: Ha it's Roogle. Pretty good choice.

[Ouch!]

This checks out.

[Formalhaut]

Changing the subject drastically from meta-analysing the histories of rape, torture, writing skill blah blah blah... my thoughts on the episode. I only watched it today, as I've been ill the past few days and missed it on Monday, so let me bore regale you on the episode. Sorry.



Overall

An episode with an air of betrayal and revenge. Ayra's revenge, Dany's betrayal, Mormont being literally stabbed in the back, Varys's revenge, Margarey and Olenna's scheming... all facets of revenge. I loved this episode overall and we've gone over the hill of the opening three episodes, which was mainly filled with build-up. Two key sections in this episode really stood out, and Dany finally is becoming a major power in this story!

Jaime/Brienne

I mentioned this earlier on about how impressed I am with Jaime's development through the show, and this episode further proliferates his path of redemption. He was arrogantly smug in Season 1, indignant during Season 2, but now he's really turned things around now. He paid a high price for his kindness towards Brienne though, but it's glad to see Brienne repaying the favor with her pep talk. It's clear now that they are a real dyad in the story and rely on each other to get through the ordeal. It's credit to the production team and writers that they've solidified their bond in just two episodes: Episode 3 and Episode 4. In one fell swoop with Jaime's defending of Brienne, suddenly we sympathise with him again.

Arya/Gendry

Mere set-up. We meet that Dondarrion bloke again from season 1 and if I remember correctly he looks well different from then. It's decent set-up for the next episode where her story really comes along, and it's important to note Arya's revenge streak is being sated, remember the Hound is a name on her list, which actually hasn't been referenced in a long while.

Varys

Quite refreshing that we actually hear more about the Spider. This is really perhaps the first episode where we get quite a focus on the enigmatic enuch. We learn about his past, in a scene where Tyrion was reduced to mere spectator, an interesting turn-around where Varys is normally the 'supporting' character in a conversation. This scene was more a veiled threat though, as we learn that Varys can truly have great influence, with the sorcerer from his past being shipped like a cargo haul from UPS.

His next scene was quite good, with Olenna Tyrell, and has him back to his usual scheming ways.

Margaery

More from the smiling schemer, in where she feigns interest towards Joffrey. She knows exactly what to say to everyone and succedeed in winning the smallfolk back, which indirectly helps Joffrey too, something Cersei could not. Cersei knows she has truly lost her grip on the King and is further outcast from both her son, and her family. She's the queen regent in name only.

Dany's Angels

Dany has her posse now with Jorah, Barristan and Missandei, which is nice. With Missandei, she finally has a female confidant since Irri and Doreah died on her, so it will be interesting to see those personal scenes play out, so far this season it's really only been displays of power with Dany so far.

As has been said earlier in the thread, her betrayal was pure awesomeness. I KNEW I was right when Dany spoke Valaryian, I called it right back in episode 1. The look on the slaver's face (and her posse) when she spoke was priceless.

Beyond The Wall

No Jon Snow (that's next week), but it's a very sad episode all round when it came to beyond the wall. In Craster's Keep, the death of Mormont, for me was genuinely horrifying and shocking, and I actually skipped over the really harrowing, greusome bit. I didn't want to see him die! I know, call me a wuss.

The segment played well because whenever Rast (the guy who actually killed Mormont) was in a scene, the camera made well to zoom in on him in an ominous fashion and hear is moaning about all sorts. Good forebording on him, thinking back in the episode. Besides that, we also now get the split of Samwell Tarly and Gilly. Hopefully in later episodes Sam will really come out as a starring character with his own scenes, rather than being a foil for Jon, or a bumbling annoyance to the Nights Watch!

[Miriel]

Oh my god, you babies. God forbid you should have to scroll past some lengthy yet thoughtful posts to get to your next meme image!

[Jinx]

Oh my god, you babies. God forbid you should have to scroll past some lengthy yet thoughtful posts to get to your next meme image!

Seriously. It was/is a great conversation.

[Formalhaut]

Oh my god, you babies. God forbid you should have to scroll past some lengthy yet thoughtful posts to get to your next meme image!

Oh, I read them, and they were very well developed and nice, but it got abit for me after it was like a page of back and forth. :p

And don't get me started on meme images, I took part in Badass Mafia and got them in droves.

[The Man]

Another point I forgot to bring up earlier is that it's probably also worth considering that fiction is often not just a commentary on the real world but also on other fiction as well. As Martin himself points out in that interview (thanks for posting it, btw, Zach), war in most fantasy before Martin's came along was pretty sterile and bloodless. A case could be made that Martin may somewhat be exaggerating the brutality of modern life (I don't really agree with this case, but I can see legitimate reason for someone to think it), but there would still be an artistic purpose for doing so: namely, as a commentary on all the fiction that came before it. In other words, by making his world so brutal, he's presenting a deliberate "fuck you" to all the fantasy authors who came before him and presented war as some bloodless sport.

That said, I'm pretty sure at least 90% of his motive was just to reflect the actual brutality of actual history. I mean, yeah, there are dragons and (mostly not very powerful magic) and a few deviations from actual history, but they're mostly just used to add flavour to the plot. Apart from the climate issue, which is central to the setting, most of Martin's deviations are pretty small, and the world is mostly just asking, "What if the laws of nature had diverged in X and Y and Z ways, but human nature remained mostly the same?" Which, from where I'm sitting, is exactly the kind of question speculative fiction should be asking.

[Bolivar]

^ Yes, this series was created to subvert the major fantasy tropes, you could make a whole thread just about that. You also have to keep in mind that George also writes Horror, so unless you think all horror authors have a fetish, it's a little unfair to place him in that category.

[Ouch!]

That's also something that I think a lot of people really forget about Martin because the series is still incomplete. A Game of Thrones first came out in 1996. While most fantasy these days more readily engages "mature" content, when Martin first started the series, it was a drastic departure tonally and thematically from the rest of the genre. Crippling children and killing off the "main" character at the end of the first book was absolutely unheard of. And while more recent series like the Gentleman Bastards and The Kingkiller Chronicles may readily acknowledge rape, murder, and brutality as realities of the medieval settings fantasy often occupies, before Martin everything was quite happy to gloss over that in favor of a more idealized fantasy world of good vs. evil.

[The Man]

I'm not sure I'd go as far as saying rape is completely absent from earlier works of fantasy. I mean, there's the obvious example of Thomas Covenant, which depicts it being committed by the main character (although admittedly, due to his believing that the Land is not actually a real place, it's not presented as an everyday occurrence, and of course this is the main reason Covenant is considered an anti-hero at best and an outright anti-villain by many readers. This is also the main reason I haven't been able to get through the series yet - I find it impossible to care about Covenant after that, and the other characters, at that point in the book, haven't been developed enough to stand out much. I do intend to give the series another chance at some point, though).

There are also the early books of The Wheel of Time, which allude to quite a bit of rape, torture, dismemberment, and other heinous acts being committed by the villains, but many of these are completely inhuman monsters (many of them literally) and most of the rape is not described firsthand (although strangely, one of the most inhuman villains is subjected to it as punishment for her failures in a later book, and it's pretty clear that we're meant to feel sorry for her despite the fact that she's a monstrous person who trained children as soldiers and committed other similar atrocities - not to mention, by engineering the Tower split almost singlehandedly, she was actually more successful than arguably any other villain in the series, but because she didn't come when called she was raped and tortured regardless. If memory serves, this was in Crossroads of Twilight, making it one of the few things that happened in that book. Unfortunately and infamously, male victims of rape are not treated anywhere near as seriously, which is just one of many examples of the series' massively screwed up gender politics, most of which stems from the series' straw matriarchy). The series does feature torture used on a fairly widespread basis, as well, to the point where "put to the question" is universally understood as a euphemism. Admittedly, everyone who uses torture and isn't working for the primary villains is working for one of the secondary villain organisations instead.

So, to wrap up, I'd really say that Martin is notable more for presenting torture and rape as everyday occurrences in a medieval/wartorn setting that could be committed by allies of the heroes (insofar as there are any "heroes") just as easily as they could by antagonists than he is for using them at all. You may not have meant to imply otherwise, but I felt compelled to respond regardless.

[Jinx]

Finally watched this week's episode.

Y'all know I'm not a fan of Dany, and I'm even less of a fan of Emilia Clarke's acting "skills", but goddamn, the last 5 minutes of this episode were fucking awesome.

[chionos]

I think what we really learn from ASoI&F & AGoT is that each person has their own set of values which they adhere to, and their own evils which they choose to inhabit. It's a relativistic view of a moral/amoral landscape. It allows Martin to make us hate a character and later love them. It says something about Martin and about us that we hate Jaime for being a child-killer, and protecting/befriending Brienne. Same with the Dog and his treatment of Sansa. Good and evil are constantly shifting and being redressed, so the reader/watcher has to dig deeper into the characters and come to really understand their motivations and desires. He's really doing some things with characterization that normally only happen in Literature. It doesn't always work, but I applaud him for even trying it in the fantasy setting. Good people aren't all good, and bad people aren't all bad. Well Ramsay. What an evil fuck. >_<

[The Man]

Agreed. Martin is pretty much the first major fantasy writer to try a cast composed almost entirely of anti-heroes and anti-villains, and he's so effective at it that there isn't even any consensus on who is an anti-hero and who is an anti-villain. That's a testament to how nuanced the characterisation and conflict are.

(Though there are a few beyond Ramsay who are unapologetically evil, including The Mountain and Vargo Hoat).

[Freya]

Here cheer up buttercups!

9RnDmt7GCPE

[chionos]

That video contains content from WMG, Freya,

W.M.G.






GOSH! :roll2

[Shlup]

Agreeing with Ouch! and The Man while disagreeing with Del and Miriel is an odd sensation. It's really interesting that, in such a violent series, the only violence being complained about is sexual violence. There is so much violence in this series. The brutality puts you on edge and reminds you this is not some standard piece of fiction where we kill the guys who wear black (in fact, Martin specifically dressed the Night's Watch in black to counter that trope) and the heroes all come through it--just like in real war (plus dragons), anything can happen, anyone can die, every hero makes bad choices and every villain can be relatable. Following what's safe and doing what you know the readers want is what's lazy. Writing a perfect little war where the women are safely tucked away while the men cut through dozens of bloodless creatures while remaining uninjured is what's lazy, and it does a disservice to anyone who reads it, glorifying war by ignoring the brutality of it. Martin doesn't write brutality because it's easy and because he can--he does it so that you know that everyone and everything is fucked.

Anyway, as I was going to post last night before my internet went down: How goddamn heartbreaking is this face?

http://i.imgur.com/nhBfydo.png

She's not quite as excited in the books because Loras has joined Joffrey's Kingsguard (and, thus, can't marry) so Sansa is asked to marry the oldest Tyrell, Willas, who's got a crippled leg and is not as hot as Loras.



Also, isn't Iwan Rheon supposed to be playing Ramsay Bolton? I'm surprised more people aren't commenting on this. I KNOW SOME OF YOU READ THE BOOKS.

No. He's playing Reek right now. That one comes later.
He's Ramsay. The eyes give it away. And, well, the cast list.

[Cuchulainn]

I must admit there were times when reading the books where I've thought that Martin was a non-practicing sexual sadist but it just made me like him even more.

[Shlup]

To be fair, the series I read before this was The Sword of Truth, which I began to refer to as "The Rape Books" after awhile because that shit is full of very gratuitous rape and it was very clear that the author was getting off on it.

[Loony BoB]

To be fair, the series I read before this was The Sword of Truth, which I began to refer to as "The Rape Books" after awhile because that trout is full of very gratuitous rape and it was very clear that the author was getting off on it.
Huh. I wonder if the naming of the series has anything to do with that author's fetish. Bleh.

[blackmage_nuke]

And beyond that, Westeros does not seem like a world in which people, unless they're fabulously wealthy and spoiled, can afford to sulk. I would imagine that regular people, women included, know how to hustle and survive. If you look at all the female characters on the show, some may be battrout insane or narcissistic or bland and naive or clever or strong, but few are just willing to lay down and die. So I'm wondering who Brienne was thinking about when she was imagining women sniveling and giving up.

If anything the show is sexist for not showing more average women. We see all sorts of male extras or side characters bumbling about but it seems any women in the show have to be depicted as a single female lawyer unless theyre servants or prostitutes and even then a lot of them have cunning alterior motives etc. Thats not to say whiny women and stupid girls dont make up the majority of the female population in this the world, it's just the camera never points at them!

[Madame Adequate]

To be fair, the series I read before this was The Sword of Truth, which I began to refer to as "The Rape Books" after awhile because that trout is full of very gratuitous rape and it was very clear that the author was getting off on it.
Huh. I wonder if the naming of the series has anything to do with that author's fetish. Bleh.

Don't you bring that in here you swine :mad2:

[Loony BoB]

What did I bring?

[Madame Adequate]

This thread: http://home.eyesonff.com/eyes-each-other/147744-not-rape-but-its-rape-12.html

[Pike]

Finally watched this week's episode.

Y'all know I'm not a fan of Dany, and I'm even less of a fan of Emilia Clarke's acting "skills", but goddamn, the last 5 minutes of this episode were fucking awesome.

I love Emilia Clarke, never seen a problem with her acting tbqh.

On the other hand she did date Seth MacFarlane for a while and I have no idea why anyone would ever do that.

[Jinx]

Oh Dany, Queen of the Dead Eyes


Every scene

Same look

Same blank face

Same dead eyes

Same monotone voice

[Pike]

Oh Dany, Queen of the Dead Eyes


Every scene

Same look

Same blank face

Same dead eyes

Same monotone voice

That's how she's supposed to act, though

[Jinx]

Oh Dany, Queen of the Dead Eyes


Every scene

Same look

Same blank face

Same dead eyes

Same monotone voice

That's how she's supposed to act, though

Is it? Because that certainly wasn't the Dany in the books.

[Formalhaut]

I really don't see the sheer hatred of Dany in the T.V series, I really don't. I think she's been portrayed well personally, she's certainly not my most hated character *cough* Stannis *cough*

[chionos]

It's especially interesting because all of GoT's directors seem to get a lot of work out of the actors' faces. See any interaction between the Lannisters. Also see the picture of Sansa that Shlup posted. That was a great scene for her, well acted and well directed.

So it would seem to follow that Dany's stoic exterior is something they're doing intentionally for the show. Even if Clarke is a bad actor, I think the directors would pull something out of her if they really wanted to.

[Agent Proto]

Oh Dany, Queen of the Dead Eyes


Every scene

Same look

Same blank face

Same dead eyes

Same monotone voice

That's how she's supposed to act, though

Is it? Because that certainly wasn't the Dany in the books.

Show =/= Book

[Pike]

Well I haven't read the books so I'm going by the show alone where I think she's a believable and interesting character - her acting certainly convinces me, anyway

I could be in the minority, though, I suppose

[Formalhaut]

Well I haven't read the books so I'm going by the show alone where I think she's a believable and interesting character - her acting certainly convinces me, anyway

I could be in the minority, though, I suppose

Nope, I concur.

[Agent Proto]

I want to say that I like Dany. She's a great character, started off weak, but gradually gains strength as the story progresses in both the show and books. It's only in the books that you can actually read what she's thinking.

[Bunny]

Also, isn't Iwan Rheon supposed to be playing Ramsay Bolton? I'm surprised more people aren't commenting on this. I KNOW SOME OF YOU READ THE BOOKS.

No. He's playing Reek right now. That one comes later.
He's Ramsay. The eyes give it away. And, well, the cast list.

Part of the joke is that, in the books, Ramsey and Reek are the same character upon initial introduction. I am fully aware what role the actor plays and I guess my joke fell flat.


Is it? Because that certainly wasn't the Dany in the books.

Most of Dany's character growth is through her own internal monologue and how she reacts, internally, to the events going on around her. The show doesn't have access to this, which makes it a little harder to portray the character correctly. Dany, in the show, is portrayed exactly as she should be: a scared girl who has no real idea what she is supposed to be doing but knows that she is the last dragon and, as such, must act the part. I'd say the actress has played her fairly stellar so far.

[Freya]

I think the only person who hates Dany is TB.

Also what are you people talking about DEM EYEBROWS. She shows tons of emotion through those dang eyebrows!

http://i.minus.com/iv7YANYHMxtEI.gif

[Quindiana Jones]

It's like watching hairy ocean swells.

[Formalhaut]

What you've got to remember is that for pretty much the entire time, she's constantly on the move, leading her dothraki/army/posse across Essos. She's not exactly got alot of time to talk to what's left of her companions (Irri, Doreah, Drogo are dead remember) and she's really only got Jorah to talk to (Barristan and Missandei have only just recently joined her), and even then she's either criticising him, dismissing his advances or otherwise telling him what to do. Not alot of time to open up her emotions in all of that.

Couple with what was said about the whole internal monologue not being able to transfer to screen, and you can see why Dany doesn't have alot of room to show emotion or open up. Given what time she does have, the actress is doing a good job really!

[Jinx]

Emilia Clarke is extremely expressive and has a ton of energy in real life.

Acting? Not so much.

[Shorty]

Oh Dany, Queen of the Dead Eyes


Every scene

Same look

Same blank face

Same dead eyes

Same monotone voice

Danaerys is one of the best characters for conveying her emotions purely through her eyes.

http://us.cdn002.fansshare.com/photos/hdwallpapers-tvshows/dragons-game-of-thrones-tv-series-emilia-clarke-daenerys-targaryen-house-targaryen-fresh-hd-wallpaper-1100799571.jpg
http://us.cdn002.fansshare.com/photos/emiliaclarke/lord-snow-daenerys-targaryen-daenerys-targaryen-474402416.jpg
http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/30400000/Daenerys-daenerys-targaryen-30463927-866-719.jpg
http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/30700000/Daenerys-Targaryen-Season-2-daenerys-targaryen-30767837-1024-576.png
http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/30400000/Daenerys-daenerys-targaryen-30463912-1280-720.jpg

I think you're just drawing blanks to hate on her.

[Jinx]

I've given a ton of reasons why I hate Daenerys, actually.

Although, the more I think about it, the more I've come to realize I never really liked Dany to begin with, but Emilia Clarke's shoddy portrayal of her sealed the deal. There are other actresses who would've done loads better.

Also, except for the first picture, all dead eyes.

[Freya]

I think you don't understand that the character isn't trying to show emotion. She's in a world where she's forever been seen as "the girl with a name at the edge of the world." She's no threat. What would showing her emotions do for her? Going back to the misogynistic thing, the world is dominated by men, showing her emotions to them would just make her look weak in their eyes. The last time she showed emotion to anyone, her husband was murdered. She has her moments where she does shows emotions, such as trying to give water to the slave. Being seen as no threat in the eyes of men, she's constantly underestimated. Without playing into it too much, she uses that to her advantage. And walks out with an army.

Or should she be broody and emo like Jon Snow?

[Jinx]

You can be stoic, and not be bland.

[Freya]

I still don't understand your "dead eyes" thing. I don't see that. At all.

[Shorty]

I think you don't understand that the character isn't trying to show emotion. She's in a world where she's forever been seen as "the girl with a name at the edge of the world." She's no threat. What would showing her emotions do for her? Going back to the misogynistic thing, the world is dominated by men, showing her emotions to them would just make her look weak in their eyes. The last time she showed emotion to anyone, her husband was murdered. She has her moments where she does shows emotions, such as trying to give water to the slave. Being seen as no threat in the eyes of men, she's constantly underestimated. Without playing into it too much, she uses that to her advantage. And walks out with an army.

Or should she be broody and emo like Jon Snow?

That's just it. She conceals her emotions and outbursts, but you can see the wheels working in her eyes.

[Jinx]

Except her eyes are always dead and lifeless. So, not really.

[Shorty]

You seem to be the only person here observing that, so for those of us who can see it: yeah, really.

[Jinx]

Lol ---> The Khaleesi Sucks At Acting... (http://the-khaleesi-sucks-at-acting.tumblr.com/)

Moving on, since we won't agree--

Is it just more, or has this season been really slow? Except for the ending of this episode, it's been really bland. We're over a third into the season, and after next week's, we'll be halfway though. I don't feel like the stories have progressed at all.

Although, I will say, Varys and Olenna. Omg. They need to have a spin-off talk show. For real.

[Formalhaut]

The season so far has been slow, but it's picking up pace. Bear in mind that's we had the battle of blackwater, now we need a sort of comedown after that.

Episodes 1-3 for me were going up the hill of a rollercoaster, and then we climaxed with episode 4 with Dany's performance in Astapor and Mormont's death beyond the wall. Now, I'd wager that episodes 5-8 is probably going to be another hill (maybe with a few exceptions) towards Episode 9, which is obviously going to be a huge episode story wise.

[Jinx]

You know, I kind of hate the Night's Watch.

As much as I hate Craster, the Night's Watch were being awfully demanding and expecting of food and shit.

[Formalhaut]

You know, I kind of hate the Night's Watch.

As much as I hate Craster, the Night's Watch were being awfully demanding and expecting of food and trout.

You know what? I agree with you Sam. We agree on something! Yes!

The thing is, Mormont was just what the Night's Watch needed. Sure, no-one liked Craster, but Mormont had that patience and tread a very thin line. While I understand the Nights Watch were in pretty dire straights, they still have to be patient: bear in mind they turned up completely unannounced. Craster technically didn't have to let them stay.

What we have to remember though is that the Nights Watch is made mainly of thieves and criminals. But still, killing under guest right is just a mortal sin in Westeros.

[Loony BoB]

Every scene

Same look

Same blank face

Same dead eyes

Same monotone voice
Yeah, Tywin. Geez.

Seriously, though, it's intentional and (if the directors are worth their salt) under instruction from the director. It's a case of being told not to show emotion, which she does very well while still having subtle emotions shown at certain times. There are, of course, moments where her emotion does come through, and if you don't catch them then that kinda sucks. I don't really care all that much for Dany regardless, though, as I like my characters to show emotion or have a wickedly awesome voice (hi, Tywin), of which Dany leaves both boxes unchecked. She's not bad, just not even close to a favourite. Danielle likes her a lot, though. Sam certainly has no obligation to like her, it's all down to opinion.

EDIT: Not gonna lie, was delighted to see Craster die, but really gutted to see Mormont go down with him.

[Miriel]

I don't think it's fair to dismiss someone's critiques on acting (which is like, so smurfing subjective) just because you don't agree with it.

I think Shorty's examples are funny because in half of them, I do see emotion, and in the half they really are dead eyes. So it's kinda like half proving her point and half proving TB's point. Tyra Banks would tell her she needs to smize more.

I think Emilia Clarke vacillates between being very good and convincing and other times you can tell that she's acting. Which is totally understandable. This is one of her first acting gigs. She's doing well for someone who is so new. But compare her to the actor who plays Joffrey. That guy is really smurfing good. I think one of the best actors on the show. THe range he gets in the tiniest movements in his face and eyes are amazing.

I'm kind of fascinated with the character of Margaery because I get the sense that no one has seen her true self except in the brief scene where she confesses to wanting to be THE queen. Every single interaction she has (including with her family) seems to be calculated and affected. Poor Sansa, if she has an ounce of sense, she would know not to trust her fully.

EDIT: CONFUSED SHORTY & FREYA.

[Jinx]

Every scene

Same look

Same blank face

Same dead eyes

Same monotone voice
Yeah, Tywin. Geez.

Seriously, though, it's intentional and (if the directors are worth their salt) under instruction from the director. It's a case of being told not to show emotion, which she does very well while still having subtle emotions shown at certain times. There are, of course, moments where her emotion does come through, and if you don't catch them then that kinda sucks. I don't really care all that much for Dany regardless, though, as I like my characters to show emotion or have a wickedly awesome voice (hi, Tywin), of which Dany leaves both boxes unchecked. She's not bad, just not even close to a favourite. Danielle likes her a lot, though. Sam certainly has no obligation to like her, it's all down to opinion.

EDIT: Not gonna lie, was delighted to see Craster die, but really gutted to see Mormont go down with him.

I actually mentioned Tywin to someone just a few minutes ago. But despite his stoic demeanor and deliverance, he makes people feel something.


ALSO OMG MIRIEL SMIZE

SMIZE SMIZE SMIZE

goddammit, y'all, let's just get tyra to play dany

[Freya]

You mean shorty's examples :P

[Loony BoB]

I think Emilia Clarke vacillates between being very good and convincing and other times you can tell that she's acting. Which is totally understandable. This is one of her first acting gigs. She's doing well for someone who is so new. But compare her to the actor who plays Joffrey. That guy is really smurfing good. I think one of the best actors on the show. THe range he gets in the tiniest movements in his face and eyes are amazing.
The casting for Joffrey was perfect. I love watching Joffrey, I love to hate him. He is an epic character.

[Jinx]

Also, I love what they've done with Margaery. In the books she was a fairly minor character, in the show she's fucking amazing. I think she's probably my favourite female on the show atm. Besides Olenna.

[Night Fury]

True factz.

I only dislike Dany out of petty spite because my housemate well and truly raves about her and is her 'biggest fan' and has a Targaryen iPhone case and all sorts and "Omg, I connect so much with Daenerys, it's like I literally am her." So I'm always like "Oh I don't like her she's kind of lame."

But deep down I do love Dany. But this constant need to be all "NO I HATE HER" is actually starting to kill me inside.

Judge me as you will.

:colbert:

[Jinx]

True factz.

I only dislike Dany out of petty spite because my housemate well and truly raves about her and is her 'biggest fan' and has a Targaryen iPhone case and all sorts and "Omg, I connect so much with Daenerys, it's like I literally am her." So I'm always like "Oh I don't like her she's kind of lame."

But deep down I do love Dany. But this constant need to be all "NO I HATE HER" is actually starting to kill me inside.

Judge me as you will.

:colbert:

We're here for you, Tara. :kiss:

http://home.eyesonff.com/general-chat/149658-stubborn.html

[Psychotic]

I was reading on the wiki about Dany and she actually sounds interesting, particularly to hear Tyrion (idk if that's a spoiler as he's not actually met her in the books but w/e, lonny bob is a tit) describe her. To actually read her chapters is an abomination, especially in ADWD. I have therefore decided that she is best consumed through bullet points... which is exactly what the TV show is! Hurray!

[Night Fury]

This is exactly me being stubborn.

But goddamnit I loved this show before her, and she tries to act like she's the 'bigg3st f4n evah' and trout. Trying to talk to me about it and being all "Omg. Like oooommggg, I can't believe it, Robb is just SO SO SO sexy, how can you even like anyone else in that show but Robb. Who is Jaqen? What's that?" SHE DOESN'T EVEN GET HODOR REFERENCES and I just feel like throwing an Ygritte at her to tell her "YOU KNOW NOTHING"

:doublecolbert:


I'm just a terrible human being, aren't I?

[Jinx]

How do you not get Hodor references?

It is the most self-contained, self-explanatory fucking reference on the planet.

[Agent Proto]

She probably doesn't realize Hodor is all he could say.

[Night Fury]

Because she's what I call a 'Hipster Douchebag Fan'

Likes things that are niche to make a statement about how niche and nerdy she is when really she isn't.

I am bloody on one tonight. Saucer of milk for Locky, immediately.

[Jinx]

Because she's what I call a 'Hipster Douchebag Fan'

Likes things that are niche to make a statement about how niche and nerdy she is when really she isn't.

I am bloody on one tonight. Saucer of milk for Locky, immediately.


To be fair, as much as I love GoT, it really is accessible for everyone. And it lets anyone feel "nerdy" because of its popularity.

[Loony BoB]

Two seasons later...

"What's the name of that guy who says 'hodor' all the time? Is that all he can say, or...?" --Locky's pal.

[Night Fury]

She was the same with The Hunger Games. I had read them before we moved in, and I knew she enjoyed Harry Potter and (God forbid) Twilight, so I offered her my copy of the books. I told her what it was about - "Oh, that doesn't really sound like my thing tbh..." as SOOON as the trailer is released she's all like "OMG I LOVE THE HUNGER GAMES."

She is that person.


As for the Hodor thing... she actually spells it as Hordor.

Anyway, I'm putting my claws away now because we've been on good terms lately, and besides her annoying fan-ness there's nothing else bugging me about her right now.

[Jinx]

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa196/narcissisticprincess09/tumblr_mln3gwLkQ01r303pdo3_250_zps732a2516.png (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/narcissisticprincess09/media/tumblr_mln3gwLkQ01r303pdo3_250_zps732a2516.png.html)

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa196/narcissisticprincess09/tumblr_mln3gwLkQ01r303pdo2_250_zps5460df49.png (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/narcissisticprincess09/media/tumblr_mln3gwLkQ01r303pdo2_250_zps5460df49.png.html)

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa196/narcissisticprincess09/tumblr_mln3gwLkQ01r303pdo4_250_zps2f5c9e10.png (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/narcissisticprincess09/media/tumblr_mln3gwLkQ01r303pdo4_250_zps2f5c9e10.png.html)

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa196/narcissisticprincess09/tumblr_mln3gwLkQ01r303pdo1_250_zpsb1dcb63e.png (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/narcissisticprincess09/media/tumblr_mln3gwLkQ01r303pdo1_250_zpsb1dcb63e.png.html)

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa196/narcissisticprincess09/tumblr_mln3gwLkQ01r303pdo5_250_zps5e242f8c.png (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/narcissisticprincess09/media/tumblr_mln3gwLkQ01r303pdo5_250_zps5e242f8c.png.html)

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa196/narcissisticprincess09/tumblr_mln3gwLkQ01r303pdo6_250_zps5e64d3ba.png (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/narcissisticprincess09/media/tumblr_mln3gwLkQ01r303pdo6_250_zps5e64d3ba.png.html)

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa196/narcissisticprincess09/tumblr_mln3gwLkQ01r303pdo7_250_zpsa731af09.png (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/narcissisticprincess09/media/tumblr_mln3gwLkQ01r303pdo7_250_zpsa731af09.png.html)

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa196/narcissisticprincess09/tumblr_mln3gwLkQ01r303pdo8_250_zpsab053fce.png (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/narcissisticprincess09/media/tumblr_mln3gwLkQ01r303pdo8_250_zpsab053fce.png.html)

[Night Fury]

Disturbing.

[Psychotic]

I realised what this season is missing. King Robert. Dude was easily the best character. :(

[Jinx]

Disturbing.

It helps if you listen to this as you view:

GNEcQS4tXgQ

[Night Fury]

Don't ruin Barbra Streisand for me!

[Agent Proto]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/97febb2dea93951d326e228700180cc3/tumblr_mlrzgujFN71r2r61vo1_500.png

[Ouch!]

Don't ruin Barbra Streisand for me!
What's left to ruin that hasn't already been ruined?

[blackmage_nuke]

You know, I kind of hate the Night's Watch.

As much as I hate Craster, the Night's Watch were being awfully demanding and expecting of food and trout.



You know, I kind of hate the Night's Watch.

As much as I hate Craster, the Night's Watch were being awfully demanding and expecting of food and trout.

You know what? I agree with you Sam. We agree on something! Yes!

The thing is, Mormont was just what the Night's Watch needed. Sure, no-one liked Craster, but Mormont had that patience and tread a very thin line. While I understand the Nights Watch were in pretty dire straights, they still have to be patient: bear in mind they turned up completely unannounced. Craster technically didn't have to let them stay.


Whats the point of even having allies if theyre not going to at least give you a decent meal when you need it. The deal was the Nightswatch can use the town to resupply if they turn a blind eye to the horrible stuff craster does, the Crows kept up thier end of the bargain, Craster did not. Sure "Give us food or we kill you" is more of a bad guy's bargain but Craster knew the stakes and I find it odd that he would willingly provoke a large group of hungry men with only a town of submissive women to defend him.


What we have to remember though is that the Nights Watch is made mainly of thieves and criminals. But still, killing under guest right is just a mortal sin in Westeros.
Lucky they werent in Westeros

[Formalhaut]

[QUOTE=blackmage_nuke;3246780]
Whats the point of even having allies if theyre not going to at least give you a decent meal when you need it. The deal was the Nightswatch can use the town to resupply if they turn a blind eye to the horrible stuff craster does, the Crows kept up thier end of the bargain, Craster did not.

I'm not saying Craster's being hard done by here, I can't stand him and he probably should have done more, but he's not an outright enemy. He proves to be an incredibly unworthy ally, but not an outright foe.

[Bolivar]

It's amibguous. A 10-year summer means a long-ass winter and he can't feast these guys every day with a full house to feed. At the same time, he is holding out, and with everything else the NW have gone through, it all erupts into one of the many magnificent plot volcanoes you unsuspecting viewers are in store for this season :semicolonpee:

[Formalhaut]

At the same time, he is holding out

True, Craster is not known for the readings of situations.

"Hrm, a motley bunch of starving, half-dead criminals with swords and a festering anger issue is at my door step, and they are getting angrier as I insult them. Nothing could possibly go wrong here!"

[Night Fury]

I'm not saying Craster's being hard done by here, I can't stand him and he probably should have done more, but he's not an outright enemy. He proves to be an incredibly unworthy ally, but not an outright foe.


He is a foe, he's rude to them. They were in real trouble when they came back and he was going to let them suffer. That's not an ally, imo.

[Formalhaut]

He is a foe, he's rude to them. They were in real trouble when they came back and he was going to let them suffer. That's not an ally, imo.

Hmm, I see your point, but then again a enemy would just refuse entry in the first place or even worse, attack you. Craster's definitely not a worthy or good ally, but then again, he's not the worst enemy beyond the wall. He's definitely the lesser of three evils to the Nights Watch (between the others, wildlings and himself)

Either way, it's all semantics anyway. I can't wait for Jon Snow's storyline, which let's be honest has really been on the backburner.

[Bolivar]

Foes don't give you food and shelter in Westeros LOL. He really can't afford to host and feast the Night's Watch as match as they'd like and maybe the show doesn't get that across as well since it only looks like it's 10-20 guys and they probably haven't stressed the harshness and unusual length of seasons enough in a while.

[Jinx]

Started playing Game of Thrones Ascent on Facebook. It is surprisingly fun.

[McLovin']

I dont understand what Baeric Dondarion's story is.

Glad Jon Snuuuuaaahhhhoohhh got some.

Not much happened this episode after the initial fight.

[Freya]

You know nothing Jon snoooooooohhhhh

also....

http://25.media.tumblr.com/74665a00d3ef5314500dfb1320bdacb9/tumblr_mm01bfpLXj1qcwaqao1_500.gif

[Pheesh]

Aww, I wish Stannis was my dad.

:roll2

[Rostum]

Brienne has a pretty sexy butt.

[blackmage_nuke]

I have no idea who the new name between Ilyn Payne and The Hound on Arya's list is. Someone please explain who he is and what he did to Arya.

Nice ending credit, poor Sansa, creepy fetus jars. I think Stannis is just attracted to crazy.

[Pheesh]

He was the old captain of the guard, the one that killed the prostitute's baby and also attacked Syrio.

[blackmage_nuke]

Was there a reason why he wasnt he on the first list back at Harrenhal?

[Pike]

okay so basically RECAP:

Jon Snow apparently knows SOMETHING :jokey:
Stannis likes creepy chicks
But Stannis also has a cute daughter :love:
Brienne has a nice ass
CERSEI AND TYRION GET TROLLED

did I miss anything important?

[Freya]

Robb being stupid!

[Madame Adequate]

She was still writing the list back at Harrenhal, I guess? She was adding to it literally every time we saw a scene with her doing it and not everyone she added was someone right in front of her.

Also Beric Dondarrion :stare: Okay so the Warlocks said their magic came back when the Dragons did, I wonder if the same has been true of R'hllor's priests. Between shadowbabby, magical clones of yourself, and now bringing people back from the dead, there's some serious shit going on.

Stannis' kid is the sweetest little girl, how did she end up so sweet when her mom is so battrout and creepy and wept with joy when the woman her husband fucked told her of it? Teaching Davos to read :squee:

Honestly I knew something was going to happen to ruin Sansa's day but I expected it to be a good deal worse than that. Tyrion's a decent man, at least. Mind you there's still time.

Also Robb you were stone cold right there sentencing those guys to hang. Karstark was kind of a prick though, he was mad when he thought Robb would let him go then he was mad when he was about to be killed. The difference between Theon killing Cassel and Robb killing Karstark was pretty great too. I wonder how Theon's enjoying Crazy Guy's House Of Fun?

Man I knew I was right about Jaime and how shitty he feels about being called Kingslayer and all that despite him actually having plenty of reasons beyond wanting to be on the winning side.

[Pike]

Robb being stupid!

Oh right that. Seems to be turning into a regular thing to be honest.

[Madame Adequate]

Given that Frey wouldn't let Robb cross a bridge without two betrothals, I doubt there's anything Robb could offer him that will bring his army on board even if he hadn't broken one of those promises and married Talisa.

[Rantz]

Brienne has a nice ass but so does Jaime. I don't know why you guys are leaving that part out.

Shireen is so much more lovable in the show! D'awww!

I liked this episode a lot. It certainly wasn't as actiony as the previous one but it went through a lot of important events, especially in terms of character development.

Edit: also great song in the credits! Just wish it was more foreboding like Patchface's ramblings, which it's based upon.

[Psychotic]

I preferred Ygritte's ass if that's what we're discussing.

Shireen is indeed a precious little darling though. I usually hate kids but her friendly cheerfulness to see her daddy and the Onion Knight was adorable. Bless. :)

Looks like it's all falling apart for Robb though. Great military commander and strategist, pretty fucking atrocious politician.

[Madame Adequate]

Yeah there were a lot of asses in this show and it would be hard to choose between them.

And yeah Robb is definitely his father's son. I can understand why he did it, but he should really have put Karstark under house arrest instead because like I said I somehow doubt Walder Frey is going to be very impressed when he shows up cap-in-hand.

[Psychotic]

My theory is that he will show Walder Frey his ass and that will somehow make it all okay.

[Formalhaut]

Am currently watching it as I'm typing. I'm at the end of Dondarrion's death/rebirth. Arya's screaming really makes it feel quite visceral for a opening segment.

[Pike]

Who was that naked guy in the gay scene because he had the best ass in the episode

[Jinx]

So many asses, not sure which one I like best, tbh

[Rantz]

My theory is that he will show Walder Frey his ass and that will somehow make it all okay.

Maybe they'll compare asses? I dunno about you but Walder Frey's ass would be top notch entertainment. Prime time material right there.

[Freya]

I never got why he wouldn't go to the Vale? lysa may be crazy but at least she's related to the tullys. Silly Robb, now littlefinger is going to go there and sweep her away while you're playing at the bridge.

[chionos]

Ygritte > Brienne > Jaime

Also, the scene with Arya and Gendry was fantastic.

I can be your family.

You wouldn't be my family. You'd be m'lady.

:cry:




ohmanohmanohmanfunstuffcomingsoonsoexcited

[Ouch!]

I dont understand what Baeric Dondarion's story is.

Glad Jon Snuuuuaaahhhhoohhh got some.

Not much happened this episode after the initial fight.

Did we watch the same episode?

1. Sandor Clegane slays Dondarrion, and Thoros of Myr raises him from the dead. The Hound walks free.
2. Robb Stark holds to honor, much like his father, despite the consequences, and sentences Lord Karstark to die, costing him the loyalty of half his men. Declares he intends to win back the loyalty of the Freys.
3. Jon Snow breaks his oaths to keep them.
4. Jaime reveals the circumstances under which he became the Kingslayer, revealing depth about his character beyond being an insufferable ass.
5. Tywin declares that Tyrion will marry Sansa so that the Lannisters can take claim of Winterfell, or at least what's left of it.

Maybe it's just because I know what's coming as a consequence of all this already, but this episode is more stacked than most in important moments. Great episode.

[chionos]

The only thing to say against it is perhaps that the Jaime scene was kind of heavy-handed.

When Brienne grabs Jaime and calls out Kingslayer and he whispers, my name is Jaime it's just a bit, no it's a lot, off-putting and melodramatic.

[McLovin']

I dont understand what Baeric Dondarion's story is.

Glad Jon Snuuuuaaahhhhoohhh got some.

Not much happened this episode after the initial fight.

Did we watch the same episode?

1. Sandor Clegane slays Dondarrion, and Thoros of Myr raises him from the dead. The Hound walks free.
2. Robb Stark holds to honor, much like his father, despite the consequences, and sentences Lord Karstark to die, costing him the loyalty of half his men. Declares he intends to win back the loyalty of the Freys.
3. Jon Snow breaks his oaths to keep them.
4. Jaime reveals the circumstances under which he became the Kingslayer, revealing depth about his character beyond being an insufferable ass.
5. Tywin declares that Tyrion will marry Sansa so that the Lannisters can take claim of Winterfell, or at least what's left of it.

Maybe it's just because I know what's coming as a consequence of all this already, but this episode is more stacked than most in important moments. Great episode.

Cas after the fight it was just ASS ASS ASS ASS and talking.

[Ouch!]

You are going to get really, really disappointed when they start doing material from the fourth and fifth books if political intrigue without people having swords run through them isn't enough to sustain your attention.

[Pike]

ASS ASS ASS ASS and talking.

Number of things wrong with this: Zero

[Formalhaut]

You are going to get really, really disappointed when they start doing material from the fourth and fifth books if political intrigue without people having swords run through them isn't enough to sustain your attention.

Agreed. I haven't even read the books, and I really enjoy the 'slower' paced episodes. It allows you to connect more with the characters; Jaime got tons of development, so did Arya. Even the Baratheons had a tender moment with Shireen, even if Selsye is bordering on psychopathic.

None of that would have been achieved if it was just "stab stab stab". Besides, we got our slice of action at the start. Get that done with, and then really let the story let loose. I'm glad Jon Snow got more to do than just walking. Even with the Lords kiss though, his storyline hasn't quite caught fire yet this season, though I suspect the next episode and further will probably focus more on the north.

Poor Bran and co. have barely got a look-in so far.

[Jinx]

Poor Bran?

Poor Meera Reed. They've really treated her like nothing in the scenes she's been in.


Lol Robb

[thatkefka]

the episode before last night's was great, felt a little let down in last nights episode.
but hopefully (if Im thinking right) the next episode will probably be the best

I could be wrong but whatevs :kakapo:

[The Man]

Judging from the episode titles, episode nine will be the one that makes everyone shit themselves.

[Del Murder]

This one was ok. Better than the first couple but not better than last week's.

I like every time Tywin is in a scene. It means the plot will actually move forward rather than blah blah character development. A good scene moves the plot forward and shows character development. The scene of Rob vs. Karstark was a great example of this. Jamie's scene was interesting to learn but all in all it was just a scene in the bath.

I don't mind when they focus on the political stuff but I still like things to actually progress in that regard. We got some great bits of that from Rob and the Lannisters this week but not much else.

The sword fight between Hound and Dondarrion was pretty weak. If the sword wasn't on fire it would have been lame. The events that followed were crazy though.

[Pheesh]

Okay, I didn't want to say anything at first... But I swear I saw Jaime's balls.

[Del Murder]

Yeah there was a bit of balls.

[Shorty]

Jaime continues to be my favorite character and he just shattered my heart during the bath scene. I know there's a fine bit of deep character development throughout the entirety of the cast, but seeing him as he is now in comparison to the Jaime Lannister at the beginning of the show is to witness an absolutely astonishing character change.

I am in agreement that Tywin gets trout done. I was glad to see that he wasn't just going to be a trout to Tyrion; marrying Cersei off as well was an incredibly wise move on his part.

Also in agreement about how goddamn adorbs Stannis' daughter is and how full her heart is for Davos.

Robb was just beaming with charisma during this episode. I'm not sure what it was. Should have listened to his council, though, goshdangit!

Really great episode. Thoroughly impressed at the nice follow-up from last week's.

[Shlup]

I dont understand what Baeric Dondarion's story is.
He was sent out (by Ned, I think?) to track down The Mountain. The Mountain killed him, and Thoros (a priest of R'hollor) revived him. At some point (I believe when Ned was executed) they said fuck it and gathered a band of merry men with no allegiances to any of the kings.


SMan I knew I was right about Jaime and how shitty he feels about being called Kingslayer and all that despite him actually having plenty of reasons beyond wanting to be on the winning side.
I was waiting for that scene. <3 Jaime

Still spent way too much of the scene thinking "WASH THE DIRT OFF YOU" though.


And yeah Robb is definitely his father's son. I can understand why he did it, but he should really have put Karstark under house arrest instead because like I said I somehow doubt Walder Frey is going to be very impressed when he shows up cap-in-hand.
If the characters didn't ever make mistakes, the story would get boring. It was a very character-appropriate decision to make.


I never got why he wouldn't go to the Vale? lysa may be crazy but at least she's related to the tullys. Silly Robb, now littlefinger is going to go there and sweep her away while you're playing at the bridge.
Why would he go to the Vale?


The only thing to say against it is perhaps that the Jaime scene was kind of heavy-handed.

When Brienne grabs Jaime and calls out Kingslayer and he whispers, my name is Jaime it's just a bit, no it's a lot, off-putting and melodramatic.
Yeah, it was. I didn't even realize he was passing out; I was like "Is she sweeping him off his feet? WTF?"


Okay, I didn't want to say anything at first... But I swear I saw Jaime's balls.
What?? I missed nuggets? BJ was trying to cover my eyes. ;______;

[Aulayna]

Okay, I didn't want to say anything at first... But I swear I saw Jaime's balls.

Re-watching again just for this.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

I never got why he wouldn't go to the Vale? lysa may be crazy but at least she's related to the tullys. Silly Robb, now littlefinger is going to go there and sweep her away while you're playing at the bridge.

Because she basically stated that she wants nothing to do with the War of the Five Kings. Moreover, Lysa's sense of family is rather skewed. Severely. Basically if it does not involve Baelish and his little-finger, she doesn't care. So much for the family motto~

I'm still a few episodes behind, but having read the books I am not worried. Though sometimes I confuse books and show and cannot recall if one event transpired on the other. :s

[Loony BoB]

Jaime's revelations were interesting to know but I found his scene and interactions with Brienne to be dull. Likewise, Jon Snow's scenes while obviously vital were also kind of uninteresting. Perhaps I'm just not as interested in random nude scenes as I was when I was in my teens. :p

My favourite parts in this episode are without doubt those involving Stannis, Shireen and the good ol' Onion Knight. Stannis in particular, because it's the first time in the entire series I've actually found him to be interesting. Suddenly I'm really looking forward to what happens next with his end of things.

Gendry and Arya... I just don't think "m'lady" is what she wants to be called by anyone, ever. But it was very sweet.

Robb was Robb. It annoys me a lot because I love the Starks like crazy but this guy sure does know how to fuck up in the middle of a war. Will be interesting to see how he thinks he can get the Freys back onside.

Ending scene was awesome. I'd accidentally spoiled the Tyrion side of things when researching something some time ago, but I was delighted to know that there was more to it when he spoke to Cersei.

[Madame Adequate]

Oh yeah it was a PERFECTLY Robb decision to make, that's what made it such effective tragedy. His alternative course was clear and presented to him, but because of who he is he couldn't take that course.

[Jinx]

Okay, I didn't want to say anything at first... But I swear I saw Jaime's balls.

Re-watching again just for this.

This.


Also, I think I'm the only one who didn't find the Gendry/Arya scene touching. I found her scene with Dondarrion touching and sad, though.

[Freya]

Guys I know why he actually foesnt go to the vale but that was my as a viewer comment. Keep your book spoilers out! In the show they havent said now that the war is full blown that lysa is holed up. They only mentioned her in season one when she was there. The tullys haven't even said a thing about her. You'd think in the show they would address it, even briefly. Only mention of her was littlefinger going to sway her.

[Jinx]

Guys I know why he actually foesnt go to the vale but that was my as a viewer comment. Keep your book spoilers out! In the show they havent said now that the war is full blown that lysa is holed up. They only mentioned her in season one when she was there. The tullys haven't even said a thing about her. You'd think in the show they would address it, even briefly. Only mention of her was littlefinger going to sway her.

Robb: "Why don't we go to the Vale and see if Aunt Lysa will join the cause?"
Cat: "No, she's a fucking crazy bitch."

I get what you're saying. To at least remember this character. Both in the books AND in the show, I seriously can't remember Dondarrion. Like, I know who he is, but I don't remember his scenes in the book or in the show.

[Ouch!]

His scene in the show amounted to Ned declaring that the Mountain was an enemy of the King and would be brought to justice. Dondarrion volunteered to lead the company that would capture him. It was brief.

[Bunny]

Guys I know why he actually foesnt go to the vale but that was my as a viewer comment. Keep your book spoilers out! In the show they havent said now that the war is full blown that lysa is holed up. They only mentioned her in season one when she was there. The tullys haven't even said a thing about her. You'd think in the show they would address it, even briefly. Only mention of her was littlefinger going to sway her.

Robb: "Why don't we go to the Vale and see if Aunt Lysa will join the cause?"
Cat: "No, she's a smurfing crazy bitch."

I get what you're saying. To at least remember this character. Both in the books AND in the show, I seriously can't remember Dondarrion. Like, I know who he is, but I don't remember his scenes in the book or in the show.

It's probably because the actor playing him in the first season was a stand-in and the role was recast for the current season. You wouldn't recognize him based on looks, and unless you have good memory/attention to detail, you probably wouldn't remember his name since it was only ever directly mentioned once.

Robb going to Lysa makes no sense, both from a story and character standpoint. You have to assume that Catelyn told Robb her experiences with Lysa regarding the Tyrion situation and how unreliable she is, both as a family member and an ally. There is no legitimate reason why Robb would try to rely on Lysa's support when she is known to be unreliable and batshit crazy.

[Formalhaut]

Yeah, the whole point with Lysa is that she wanted to keep her army in the Vale, so that she can (over)protect little Robin. She didn't accept Catelyn's plea then, and she definitely wouldn't accept it now.

As for Robb's decision, it was definitely a lack of vision. What Karstark did was wrong, yes, but Robb should have followed his three advisor's advice: to keep him as a hostage essentially. That way, he can pretty much force the Karstark forces to stay. He couldn't do it through loyalty, so he should have done it through blackmail. It's not pretty, but hey, that's war.

[Del Murder]

Robb is his father's son. Though Ned probably would have also beheaded Catelyn for letting the Kingslayer go.

[Psychotic]

Still spent way too much of the scene thinking "WASH THE DIRT OFF YOU" though.Ahaha, glad I am not the only one.

[Formalhaut]

The funny thing is, Catelyn's prisoner exchange of Jaime for Sansa, appears at best ill advised and at worst downright stupid. However, when you think about it, it doesn't seem that lopsided. During the same time period when Catelyn was thinking and then releasing Jaime, Sansa was being publicly harassed and having a crossbow aimed at her as well as being stripped, perhaps even raped. Given how idiotic Joffrey is (beheading Ed Stark being just one example) it is conceivable that he might have just, on a whim, struck her down and killed her. During that scene in the Iron Throne where Sansa was being stripped and aimed at, were it not for Tyrion's intervention, much worse would have happened.

Of course, Joffrey didn't kill her, but Catelyn's desperate attempt to exchange prisoners actually had good intentions. Technically, the swap was still very lopsided (a lord commander for a teenaged girl) but hey, it is Cat's daughter. Hell, Robb's 'honor' with marrying Talisa was arguably worse, because it lost the loyalty of the already shady Freys. If the Freys wanted two marriages in return for a simple bridge crossing, holy hell what does Robb expect to be offered this time round?

[Pike]

Still spent way too much of the scene thinking "WASH THE DIRT OFF YOU" though.Ahaha, glad I am not the only one.

That whole scene made me really want to take a bath

[NorthernChaosGod]

Did anyone else yell at Robb when he was looking at the map at the end? :nonono: I kind of don't want to watch because I know he made a stupid, stupid decision. :(

[Formalhaut]

Did anyone else yell at Robb when he was looking at the map at the end? :nonono: I kind of don't want to watch because I know he made a stupid, stupid decision. :(

Taking into account how disloyal the Freys are in the first place, and how much Robb had to pay for just to cross through the crossing, it probably isn't the best plan. Hell, begging for Lysa Arryn's aid is a better option at this rate of going.

[Jinx]

The funny thing is, Catelyn's prisoner exchange of Jaime for Sansa, appears at best ill advised and at worst downright stupid. However, when you think about it, it doesn't seem that lopsided. During the same time period when Catelyn was thinking and then releasing Jaime, Sansa was being publicly harassed and having a crossbow aimed at her as well as being stripped, perhaps even raped. Given how idiotic Joffrey is (beheading Ed Stark being just one example) it is conceivable that he might have just, on a whim, struck her down and killed her. During that scene in the Iron Throne where Sansa was being stripped and aimed at, were it not for Tyrion's intervention, much worse would have happened.

Of course, Joffrey didn't kill her, but Catelyn's desperate attempt to exchange prisoners actually had good intentions. Technically, the swap was still very lopsided (a lord commander for a teenaged girl) but hey, it is Cat's daughter. Hell, Robb's 'honor' with marrying Talisa was arguably worse, because it lost the loyalty of the already shady Freys. If the Freys wanted two marriages in return for a simple bridge crossing, holy hell what does Robb expect to be offered this time round?

Sure she had good intentions.

But it was bad for three reasons:

1. Jaime is Lord Tywin's beloved son, and the Starks know that he'll do just about anything to get him back. Their position of power in greatly increased as long as they have him in their custody.

2. If the Lannisters were to get Jaime back, it'd be a morale win. Jaime is one of their leaders, but all just the fact that they bested the Starks.

3. Jaime is an incredibly gifted swordsman, and it says (at least in the books) that he can take out several people where others might take out one or two. So, he's also a huge asset to the Lannisters battle-wise.

[Psychotic]

If in doubt, spoiler tag that shit.

Like, go overkill. Be a spoiler tag Nazi. Even "oh man, episode 2 is going to be when MAD MAD STUFF happens, you know, that one thing ;)"

Cheers.

[Formalhaut]

I'm not saying that Cat was right in releasing Jaime, but that certainly it wasn't so horridly wrong, given Sansa's precarious position in King's Landing. Hell, the Stark encampment was ready to rip Jaime limb from limb, so indirectly you could argue Jaime was safer from escaping. It's not as if being recaptured by Stark loyalists did him any favours.

Certainly, Robb didn't have the right to imprison Cat under house arrest, considering the fact that his error in judgement was considerably worse than Cat's, for the reasons I've already explained. What made it worse was that Robb actively sought out a romance with Talisa, despite knowing his marriage vow, a calculated choice. When Cat released Jaime, it was just after Ed was beheaded, so that threat of violence towards Sansa was very much real. It was a wrong decision, but at the time, it certainly made sense. Besides, Cat was in deep mourning and perhaps wasn't even in her right mind, unlike Robb, who knew he was breaking a vow.

[Lonely Paper Star]

Also, the scene with Arya and Gendry was fantastic.

I can be your family.

You wouldn't be my family. You'd be m'lady.

:cry:

As someone who avidly ships them, that scene gave me feels, although I'm still a little disappointed that they didn't have the same amount of depth as in ASOS.



So many asses, not sure which one I like best, tbh

Mmm, a game of asses.



And yeah Robb is definitely his father's son.

That reminds me of this gif set (http://smurfyeahwinterfell.tumblr.com/post/49184676032/the-blood-of-the-first-men-still-flows-in-the) I saw on Tumblr.




Gendry and Arya... I just don't think "m'lady" is what she wants to be called by anyone, ever. But it was very sweet.

Yeah, she doesn't care to be a "lady," and Gendry knows it. His line just further emphasizes how she's in a higher social class than him, and how he thinks he'll never be her equal.



Also, I think I'm the only one who didn't find the Gendry/Arya scene touching. I found her scene with Dondarrion touching and sad, though.

I found both her scenes touching and sad. Maisie delivered her lines very well.

[Jinx]

Oh, absolutely. The acting from both Maisie and Joe were great in that scene, it just wasn't my thing, I guess.

[Madame Adequate]

Yeah Cat's move was a bad one politically and strategically, but it was a perfectly sane and understandable one as a mother. Her eldest son bore the burden of war and she's well aware that any battle could be his last. Theon has betrayed them all and, as far as she knows, killed Bran and Rickon. Jon she could never love anyway, but he's gone to the wall now, so even if she did want to she could see him only rarely. Sansa and Arya are the only two children who, if they were with her, might be close to safe - after everything she's lost and endured it's little wonder she's willing to try to buy them back with Jaime.

[Jinx]

I didn't say I didn't understand why she did it. :p

[Madame Adequate]

I didn't say you didn't understand! :p

[Bunny]

Oh, absolutely. The acting from both Maisie and Joe were great in that scene, it just wasn't my thing, I guess.

It's because you are a cold, heartless monster.

[Jinx]

Oh, absolutely. The acting from both Maisie and Joe were great in that scene, it just wasn't my thing, I guess.

It's because you are a cold, heartless monster.

I've never denied this, Bunny, dear. :aimkiss:

[Shlup]

If I were Cat, I would've done the same thing. Husband dead, little sons dead, daughters captive, and the one hostage that can save them clearly about to be killed... I would've absolutely have made the same decision. The reason Robb can't go take back the North from the Greyjoys is because his sisters are still captive; get them back and the causes of the war become far less urgent. Revenge and independence are much easier to strive for long-term then the lives of your family, so I don't think it was a terrible political move either.


When Cat released Jaime, it was just after Ed was beheaded, so that threat of violence towards Sansa was very much real.
It was months later, maybe a full year. Jaime was Robb's prisoner for a year.


Guys I know why he actually foesnt go to the vale but that was my as a viewer comment. Keep your book spoilers out! In the show they havent said now that the war is full blown that lysa is holed up. They only mentioned her in season one when she was there. The tullys haven't even said a thing about her. You'd think in the show they would address it, even briefly. Only mention of her was littlefinger going to sway her.

My confusion over your original inquiries have nothing to do with having read the books.

[Madame Adequate]

I know Lysa made it clear to Cat she wanted the Vale to stay neutral, but yeah it doesn't really add up that Robb wouldn't think to ask his aunt for help. Not like he's taking his mom's advice on anything else!

e; then again the fact that it is at all plausible to the King's Landing cabal to send Littlefinger to try and get Lysa Arryn on their side suggests there's some seriously bad blood there we don't know all the details of yet.

[Bolivar]

At this point in the books they've been sending raven after raven to the Vale for months with no response at all from Lysa. Many of her higher lords are also pleading for war due to their own ties to the Starks; Ned was raised there and a few of the higher houses can trace their blood to the Starks.

No one knows exactly what's going on.

[Freya]

Well I mean at this point, go to your crazy aunt or go to the guy you kinda threw the middle finger to by marrying someone else when you promised to marry one of his daughters. Options...?

[Loony BoB]

I just don't get what Cat expected to happen. They hand over Jaime, and the Lannisters suddenly say "Oh, nice one. Here, have Sansa back."? I don't think the Lannisters are so gracious. If I were at war, I wouldn't expect my enemy, regardless of who they were, to be so gracious.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

Well I mean at this point, go to your crazy aunt or go to the guy you kinda threw the middle finger to by marrying someone else when you promised to marry one of his daughters. Options...?

Problem: to get to the Vale, he has to cross Frey's lands/The Twins again.

[Del Murder]

I just don't get what Cat expected to happen. They hand over Jaime, and the Lannisters suddenly say "Oh, nice one. Here, have Sansa back."? I don't think the Lannisters are so gracious. If I were at war, I wouldn't expect my enemy, regardless of who they were, to be so gracious.
Yeah she would have had better luck trying to convince Robb to trade for them officially.

Brienne: I present to you Sir Jaime Lannister in return for the Stark daughters.
Cersei: Thank you for returning my brother....Guards!
*guards skewer Brienne*

[Cuchulainn]

Best episode yet, by a mile. Fantastic stuff all round.

[Freya]

Well I mean at this point, go to your crazy aunt or go to the guy you kinda threw the middle finger to by marrying someone else when you promised to marry one of his daughters. Options...?

Problem: to get to the Vale, he has to cross Frey's lands/The Twins again.
oh yah i forgot that.

[Bunny]

I just don't get what Cat expected to happen. They hand over Jaime, and the Lannisters suddenly say "Oh, nice one. Here, have Sansa back."? I don't think the Lannisters are so gracious. If I were at war, I wouldn't expect my enemy, regardless of who they were, to be so gracious.

This is the core of the issue.

Politically, releasing Jaime was akin to suicide and/or death for Robb's army. As a mother of a dwindling family, the move is understandable. Even then, however, as the mother of the King of the North, who is currently engaged in a war with a family who is known to be less than trustworthy, Catelyn done smurfed up.

Catelyn's move, while understandable in certain aspects, was one of the reasons why she is one of, if not the, dumbest characters in the books and series. Kudos to the actress for the great portrayal.

[Formalhaut]

The thing with Cat's mistake is that, it's effect are a lot more subtle. It's only later on that the effects of losing Jaime weigh heavily on the bannermen, in particular the Karstarks. It was definitely a demoraliser.

You can't say though that Cat was one of/if not the dumbest character(s) around, because I can think of a multitude of characters who made similar, dumb mistakes. Edmure Tully and his lack of tact, resulting in the retreat of the Lannisters and their attrition gambit. Robb and Talisa, effectively severing ties with the already disloyal Freys and Robb beheading Karstark? Theon who has been a complete idiot so far? Cersei and her ruthless rule resulting in mass rioting? Joffrey and the beheading of Ed Stark resulting in the war in the first place?

Cat was stupid in hindsight sure, but at the very least she had mitigating circumstances behind her, and at the time it certainly seemed like a decent idea. Meanwhile, Robb had three advisors telling him to not kill Karstark and that he'll lose that part of the army, and... he still goes through with it. The same with Joffrey.

[chionos]

Cat's more selfish than stupid. But she's heaps of both.

Robb's decision is stupid. But it's necessary. It wouldn't fit his character or Martin's world for him to do otherwise.

[Lonely Paper Star]

... In case you wanted a recap of S3E05, Facebook style. (http://www.happyplace.com/23526/game-of-thrones-facebook-recap-season-3-episode-5)

[chionos]

That was bloody fantastic.

[McLovin']

My favorite ASOIAF fan art - Imgur (http://imgur.com/a/uNAKT)

Awesome artwork.

And also:

http://i.imgur.com/846iHNI.jpg

[Jinx]

jsTVnZm9hFg#!

[NorthernChaosGod]

jsTVnZm9hFg#!

I like the part about Roose. "And he doesn't give a shit" xD

[Shlup]

A Lannister always pays his debts, ya'll. Jaime is Tywin's favored child, Cersei's lover, and a leader in the war. Sansa is... a notable hostage, but that's it as long as Robb's alive. They wouldn't even be able to offer both girls, though I doubt they'd be willing even at that point to admit they don't have Arya. And none of you think the Lannisters would have done the trade? The Lannister legacy is what means the most to Tywin; he wouldn't've kept Jaime while rejecting the offer outright. The trade was in the Lannister's favor by far.

Cat isn't selfish at all. She's lost her husband, her two youngest son's, potentially her daughters, and her oldest son is leading a war. And her one chance to get her daughters back was facing death by mob. If there's anyone here who wouldn't do the same for their children, you're a shitty, shitty person.

[Loony BoB]

A Lannister always pays his debts, ya'll. Jaime is Tywin's favored child, Cersei's lover, and a leader in the war. Sansa is... a notable hostage, but that's it as long as Robb's alive. They wouldn't even be able to offer both girls, though I doubt they'd be willing even at that point to admit they don't have Arya. And none of you think the Lannisters would have done the trade? The Lannister legacy is what means the most to Tywin; he wouldn't've kept Jaime while rejecting the offer outright. The trade was in the Lannister's favor by far.
Lannisters might pay their debts, but it would leave them at a disadvantage on the hostage end of things as they would be giving up their only Stark hostage while the Starks still have (well, had, ha!) the nephews.

Also, regarding how the Lannisters 'always pay their debts', I don't believe this is 100% true and they can twist their debts to their will. As far as Tywin or Joffrey are concerned, one of them could easily say he owes them nothing for the return of Jaime whatsoever.

That Facebook thing is hilarious, Paper Star.

[Shlup]

Lannisters might pay their debts, but it would leave them at a disadvantage on the hostage end of things as they would be giving up their only Stark hostage while the Starks still have (well, had, ha!) the nephews.
You're assuming the Lannisters have no Stark hostages. Lesser hostages are mostly just ransomed anyway; taking Jaime is a very big deal.


Also, regarding how the Lannisters 'always pay their debts', I don't believe this is 100% true and they can twist their debts to their will. As far as Tywin or Joffrey are concerned, one of them could easily say he owes them nothing for the return of Jaime whatsoever.
Uhm, no. That would be extremely out of character for Tywin to allow that.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

jsTVnZm9hFg#!

Given Roose's ties with the Lannisters, the whole thing does have some credence. Even if she is a spy planted by Tywin, I doubt she will survive what's to come.

[Pike]

I keep thinking that Jaime made that whole Kingslayer story up.









(Somebody is going to spoil this for me aren't they)

[Ouch!]

Tywin Lannister stood at the gates of Kings Landing and sacked the city; if you honestly think he would have honored an exchange he never agreed to, you don't understand Tywin Lannister very well.

You're never going to hear anyone contradict him. What he said was true, but it's never going to be addressed again. That chapter in the book is told from his point of view, and he's not lying.

[Jinx]

jsTVnZm9hFg#!

Given Roose's ties with the Lannisters, the whole thing does have some credence. Even if she is a spy planted by Tywin, I doubt she will survive what's to come.

I'm not sure I *actually* believe this theory, but I still think that the person who made the video spent a LOT of time nitpicking scenes and putting this together. I just thought it was a cool video, and that they present a very convincing argument.

Also, Loony BoB. The two Lannister cousins you're referring to (the little boys killed by Karstark, right?) were not Stark captives at that point. The Starks didn't take them until this season.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

It is quite possible that it is just plot holes/inconsistencies, too. I do not deny that.

[Jinx]

Definitely, but regardless, it was totally cool.

[Ouch!]

In the books, Robb married Jeyne Westerling. The Westerlings are a small house sworn to the Lannisters. There are similar theories that Jeyne Westerling's mother remained loyal to the Lannisters after her daughter married Robb and worked against Robb. It's never confirmed ore refuted in the books. I would not be surprised if this theory never gets confirmed or refuted either.

[The Man]

The books do heavily imply that Jeyne Westerling's mother was giving her moon tea, unbeknownst to her, in order to ensure she wouldn't conceive, which pretty much confirms they were loyal to the Lannisters and also heavily implies the whole thing was a setup. For whatever that's worth.

[Shlup]

Tywin Lannister stood at the gates of Kings Landing and sacked the city; if you honestly think he would have honored an exchange he never agreed to, you don't understand Tywin Lannister very well.
Switching allegiances to the winning side of a war isn't the same thing. Not honoring a proposed exchange would damage the Lannister name; he wouldn't do it.

[Pike]

Daily reminder that Caligula and Joffrey look exactly the same:

http://i.imgur.com/Sxl5Iov.jpg

[Jinx]

I love his eyes. Like, wow. They are truly corn husk blue.

[Ouch!]

Proposed by whom? Nobody approached him asking if he would agree to his terms. Instead, his son would show up with one knight--a woman, no less--and insisting that they return the Stark daughters, after he already has his son back and they have no leverage. It would be stupid, and Tywin isn't stupid. He's not breaking any promises because he made no promises.

[Shlup]

You don't seem to understand the rules of conduct between honorable houses.

[Loony BoB]

I think you overestimate the amount of honour in both houses.

Let's put it this way: If Tywin didn't agree to the exchange - and as he didn't propose it he's well within his rights - does that mean he allows Brienne (and Jaime) back all the way to Robb's army? If Tywin is so honourable and felt it a fair exchange, why didn't he send Sansa back the moment the Starks had Jaime?

[Del Murder]

That comparison with Joffrey is creepy as hell.

[Quindiana Jones]

Tywin Lannister would not accept an offer he has already benefitted from if he has already benefitted from it without accepting it.

He would absolutely honour the terms of any arrangement he agreed to, though the way in which he honours those terms would depend on how well-defined they were.

[Bolivar]

Catelyn freed Jaime because the offer was made by Tyrion. She questioned the dagger story at the same time Tyrion was making a name as a man of his word. Whether or not Tywin would honor the exchange is debatable, although given his modus operandi he probably would have came up with a really, really shady way to twist the thing around as not an exchange and kill everyone.

As far as the "honeypot" Talisa theories, I have to believe that there's a reason she was invented for the show, since she doesn't really consolidate plot threads or make explicit subtle points from the book. I have faith that it's going to be a giant mindsmurf for readers who thought they knew what was coming.

[Shlup]

I think you overestimate the amount of honour in both houses.

Let's put it this way: If Tywin didn't agree to the exchange - and as he didn't propose it he's well within his rights - does that mean he allows Brienne (and Jaime) back all the way to Robb's army? If Tywin is so honourable and felt it a fair exchange, why didn't he send Sansa back the moment the Starks had Jaime?

I think you didn't read the books so I give zero smurfs what you think.

YES I WENT THERE. YOU DON'T KNOW trout UNLESS YOU GOT ALL THE DEETS, BITCH.

[Del Murder]

You know nothing, Loony BoB.

[Formalhaut]

You know nothing, Loony B-ooooohhhhhhhh

[Raistlin]

As someone who has read the books, I agree with Ouch! and basically everyone else who isn't Shlup. Cat acted stupidly with no way of enforcing the terms of the "deal," and Tywin would not have honored an alleged agreement that he neither knew of nor agreed to.

[Quindiana Jones]

"Fuck Tyrion." - Tywin Lannister, at every opportunity.

[Ouch!]

I find it funny that you're accusing people of having not read the books, Shlup, and then insist that I don't understand how house honor works. Anyone who's read the books would immediately recognize how poorly regarded that kind of honor is for any house that isn't Stark, and look where that's landed them. Tywin Lannister would sooner be seen as dishonorable (to half the realm, he already is) than stupid.

[Shlup]

I'm not accusing anyone of not having read the books--BoB hasn't read them. I know you have. I just think you're wrong in general.

[Cuchulainn]

I think everyone is wrong....Except stannis. Never Stannis.

[Pike]

You know nothing, Loony BoB.


You know nothing, Loony B-ooooohhhhhhhh

So does anyone else think the implications here are terrifying?

[Madame Adequate]

Lucky Danielle :jokey:

[Del Murder]

Well, there's got to be some reason she's with him. I pretty much figured it was that from the start.

[Jinx]

An updated version of our favourite .gif.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa196/narcissisticprincess09/tumblr_mm8fd1gwvB1r02qlao3_400_zps4de31bb7.gif (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/narcissisticprincess09/media/tumblr_mm8fd1gwvB1r02qlao3_400_zps4de31bb7.gif.html)

[Formalhaut]

That GIF still gets me each time.

[Boud33reau]

The next two weeks are gonna suck in anticipation

[Shlup]

For a second I thought you meant there was no episode this week and I was about to cry.

[Freya]

So ros. Yah that happened. Freaking Joffery.

[McLovin']

Loved the storytelling this episode even though not much happened. It was told and shown visually very pleasantly. I didn't want it to end.

Also, MOAR LITTLEFINGER AND VARYS SCENES.

[Freya]

Oh man I love "Boy"

http://24.media.tumblr.com/6b3493d8125c352dcb50bb1ea38b975d/tumblr_mmd6dkufQH1qkwee2o1_250.gifhttp://24.media.tumblr.com/dfefc90aa8084f379e4a2bec36cd027c/tumblr_mmd6dkufQH1qkwee2o7_250.gifhttp://25.media.tumblr.com/ad2aaeb5a255a800a26ef00884e7b5c3/tumblr_mmd6dkufQH1qkwee2o5_250.gifhttp://25.media.tumblr.com/a36cd3c5f24c0afebd4f6f757b8ca6bd/tumblr_mmd6dkufQH1qkwee2o6_250.gif

crazy eyes!

[Psychotic]

"the laws of my fist are about to compel your teeth" smurf me I love the Blackfish, I wish they'd put him in sooner.

Melisandre - Thoros dynamic was exciting and new! Whoever predicted Gendry was going to replace Edric Storm is very good.

God damn that was some nasty Crazy Guy Torture Fun Palace. I loved the little Karstark ruse.

Roose Bolton is a stone cold mothersmurfer.

Haha Olenna you beast. "Old. I'm something of an expert on it", "Discrete bit of buggery" and then asking Tywin if he is a sword swallower.

I just realised: Quin should've smurfing been Loras. Loras is Quin. Discrete bit of buggery aside (well, you never can tell) he talks and looks like him.

And... Jesus Christ sinister voiceover music Littlefinger. :| They're really going all out to push him and Joffrey as evil. You don't really need to try hard in the latter's case anyway, but I dunno, I kind of think Littlefinger should more more subtle than what happened with Ros. Still, the climbing the ladder speech to Varys was amazing.

[Agent Proto]

Whoever predicted Gendry was going to replace Edric Storm is very good.


I don't really remember anyone predicting this, but it does seem that was going to be the case. I don't recall Edric appearing in the show, so it would make sense to replace him with Gendry, however I don't think this will end well. It'll only cause heartbreak for the many Gendrya supporters out there. I know I felt a bit heartbroken when they were taking him away.

[Pheesh]

I think I'd actually forgotten how absolutely loathsome Joffrey is, won't be making that mistake again.

The scene between Sansa and Loras was the highlight for me, friggin hilarious.

[Agent Proto]

I'm sure people almost thought Joffrey was turning nice over the last couple episodes. That should put their thought back into place.

[Psychotic]

I don't really remember anyone predicting this

There's no Edric Storm though I highly suspect the show is merging this characters storyline with that of Shireen's.



I think they're merging it with Gendry's storyline.Just looked it up, T's B's called it!

Also, I don't think any of us know how that's going to end now, as it's such a deviation from the book. Consider that Gendry and Edric are both well and alive in the book, and Melisandre could not actually get her full hands on Edric, just his blood. Gendry also met up with Brienne later. I don't think he's going to die.

[Agent Proto]

Oh, sorry. I don't pay much attention to this thread. :p

[Psychotic]

That's not good enough! By nightfall tomorrow I expect you to have memorised every post in this thread... or else I'm sending you off to Theon's new friend!

[blackmage_nuke]

That pause when Roose Bolton says "I wouldve hoped you learned your lesson about over playing your...position" and I was 90% sure he's going to say 'hand'. Pure genius

Also can Tywin seriously just draft people into the Kings Gaurd who arent even part of his country. That doesnt seem to make much sense.

edit: actually are the Tyrells part of South Westeros? I always assumed they were from across the sea because they came in boats but now that i think about it they could come from somewhere along the coast.

[Quindiana Jones]

Tyrell's are from the east coast, I believe.

[Psychotic]

The south-west. Also I don't think they came in boats (are you thinking of Stannis?) as their territory borders on King's Landing and the Crownlands.

EDIT: a nice map for you: http://gameofthrones.net/images/Westeros_Maps/Map_Westeros_Political.gif

Tyrell lands are in green.

[The Man]

The Tyrells are from Highgarden, which is in Southwestern Westeros (specifically, it's the regional capital of The Reach).

edit: fuck, beaten

[Lonely Paper Star]

Whoever predicted Gendry was going to replace Edric Storm is very good.


I don't really remember anyone predicting this, but it does seem that was going to be the case.

I think I mentioned it once or twice here? But I also got those hints from WIC and Tumblr.


I don't recall Edric appearing in the show, so it would make sense to replace him with Gendry, however I don't think this will end well. It'll only cause heartbreak for the many Gendrya supporters out there. I know I felt a bit heartbroken when they were taking him away.

As a Gendrya supporter... yup. orz

[Quindiana Jones]

Tits. I knew they were from one side or the other.

Highgarden is Somerset. Blimey, I really am Loras. xD

[Jinx]

Whoever predicted Gendry was going to replace Edric Storm is very good.


I don't really remember anyone predicting this, but it does seem that was going to be the case.

I think I mentioned it once or twice here? But I also got those hints from WIC and Tumblr.


I don't recall Edric appearing in the show, so it would make sense to replace him with Gendry, however I don't think this will end well. It'll only cause heartbreak for the many Gendrya supporters out there. I know I felt a bit heartbroken when they were taking him away.

As a Gendrya supporter... yup. orz

Yeah, bby, I was about to post this.

While I appreciate the credit, Pauw, I got the idea from Pitye. It seemed to make the most sense, and I agreed with her theory/what she read. :)

But yeah, Proto, more than one person called that plot change!

Which, it'll be hilarious if Gendry turns out to be mega fucking important later, and how they ret-con that. They've already written themselves into a few corners.

[Quindiana Jones]

Martin works quite closely with the TV lot, doesn't it? I imagine he'd let them know if Gendry was gonna become super important.

Would be hilarious, though. xD

[Jinx]

I read something recently (can't remember where) that said that he actually doesn't have very much say in what happens.

Also, Paul, Laddy is Loras. No Quin.

[Psychotic]

Laddy doesn't talk like that, though. The man sounds uncannily like young Arthur.

Also, what corners have they written themselves into? idk if this is even a spoiler but I imagine the answers will be.

[Jinx]

Can't think of them atm, I just woke up. But I was thinking about this the other day.

Regardless, this season has been seriously bad.

[Psychotic]

No it hasn't, it's been great!

Also as an aside, thinking about the map I posted. It must really suck to live in Dorne as they have absolutely no roads. No wonder the Martells haven't bothered to do anything yet!

[Agent Proto]

Can't think of them atm, I just woke up. But I was thinking about this the other day.

Regardless, this season has been seriously bad.

Puh-lease. It's been pretty good so far, and it's only bound to get better in the coming episodes. Or worse. I'm sure we'll see more unexpected events to happen in the coming episodes.

[Jinx]

I dunno. The pacing and the writing is really off this season. The last two seasons were amazing, this one...

I'm glad you guys are enjoying, but I really don't care for it. I'm watching hoping it gets better, now.

[Lonely Paper Star]

I wasn't too elated with the fact that they're not sticking AT ALL to the books where Gendry, Arya, and even the Brotherhood are concerned, but well... TV adaptations. >.> But if Gendry does eventually go to Lys, and D&D stick to Arya leaving for Braavos in the end, I hope they have a chance to reunite in the future, both being in the Free Cities and stuff.

Also, I found this fan art on Tumblr. Despite the plot change from the book, this made me lol: http://25.media.tumblr.com/ea910b039aaa539611d3805f7d1364d0/tumblr_mmcqkv4O8S1qk5wfdo1_500.jpg

[source (http://gabzilla-z.tumblr.com/post/49735292906/how-i-expect-this-to-go-down)]

[Pike]

WELL THAT WAS A CHEERY EPISODE.

[Madame Adequate]

I don't know if Melisandre was just trying to get away with Arya stabbing her or if she was genuinely unsettled, but if something actually unsettles Meli smurfing Sandre like Arya seems to have, you know the kid's some serious trout. Also I dunno what she's planning on doing with Gendry but she BETTER not hurt him :nonono: (or only hurt him in fun ways). Also I love how Thoros just randomly said a prayer one time and the Lord of Light responded. That'll help your faith some I'm sure.

Not the strongest episode but after the crescendo they need time to build it up again so this was just fine. There was finally an Olenna/Tywin scene too, which was JUST AS AWESOME as I expected!

Just put Blackfish in charge of everything to do with Robb's army and they'll be fine.

Also I have a theory about who Theon's new friend is (Bolton's bastard son) but it doesn't really hold up given that he's a MASTER RUSEMAN of the highest caliber so for all we know he's got nothing to do with Roose Bolton after all and is simply flaying to trick Theon further.

Rusiest thing in the episode though was not Sansa getting heartbroken or Ros getting murdered, but making poor Brienne wear that outfit.