Music and semantic pedantry (rant)

[Yeargdribble]

Arguing on the internet - everyone loses.

So there was a discussion about how most pop songs use the "same four chords." Of course, there was someone who is arguing the point saying that they aren't the same because they are in different keys. I commented that key is irrelevant because they are functionally the same in the progression regardless of key. Unless you have perfect pitch or synesthesia they sound the same to the listener.

He's making the argument that this doesn't matter because they still aren't the same chords. Sure, G-D-e-C aren't the exact same pitches as C-G-a-F, but they are both I-V-vi-IV. They are the same chord progression and given the context of the discussion it is understood that "same four chords" means same chord progression even if it's technically a little incorrect.

I think the disconnect is that he can't separate academia from what happens in practice. If I were giving a trumpet lesson I wouldn't tell the player to give me a Bb if I wanted a concert Bb. He would play me an Ab. It's understood to the player that not only does the trumpet sound a step lower, but also, that in practice people are referring the written pitch unless they preface it with "concert."

The same is true if I were talking to a guitarist with a capo on the 4th fret. I wouldn't tell him to play me a B if I wanted a B. I'd tell him to play a G. The mutual understanding between us that he had a capo on the 4th fret would indicate to him that he doesn't need play the B, but rather the G shape with the capo to make a B. I've never been in a situation where (unless joking) telling a guitarist to play a B with the capo on the 4th fret led to him playing me a D#.

When reading tabs/chord sheets most guitarists don't need (want) the actual sounding pitches; they want the chords that refer to the shapes that make the correct sound.

[Del Murder]

Yeah that guy you probably made up is totally off base man. Totally.

[Yeargdribble]

Yeah that guy you probably made up is totally off base man. Totally.

It's actually been a back and forth on reddit. I can give you the link if you like. It started by someone posting a mash up of Justin Bieber's Baby and Slipknot's Psychosocial. People explained why it worked and posted a comedy routine of some guys doing about 2 dozen songs with the chord progression. That led to someone posting on the r/todayilearned subreddit about how "TIL" that all pop songs use the same four chords.... which led to this little conversation

[NorthernChaosGod]

It's funny you mention this, I pretty much had the same argument over Axis of Awesome's Four Chord Song.

I forget the specifics, but one person was saying how the changed the songs to make them fit. I told them of course they did; they'd have to transpose all the songs into the same key for it sound coherent, but that doesn't change the song in any meaningful way because it's still the same chord progression.

[Bunny]

In my experience, only people who don't really know music will argue this sort of thing. Those who have any real knowledge of music should just sit aside, content in their giggle fits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdxkVQy7QLM

[NorthernChaosGod]

Lulz, I love that one too.

Also, I like arguing.

[DMKA]

Music: A series of sounds caused by vibrations that I either enjoy or don't enjoy the sound of.

How it was made, who it was made by or where it was made, or how much money the people who made it earned, is completely irrelevant to my enjoyment of it and therefore completely irrelevant at all, to me.

People who think all this matters and let it keep them from listening to a particular range of music are terribly mistaken.

[Yeargdribble]

It's funny you mention this, I pretty much had the same argument over Axis of Awesome's Four Chord Song.

I forget the specifics, but one person was saying how the changed the songs to make them fit. I told them of course they did; they'd have to transpose all the songs into the same key for it sound coherent, but that doesn't change the song in any meaningful way because it's still the same chord progression.

This exactly. Transposing and arranging songs away from their original key is something I do almost daily as part of my job. Even the kids in the choir have no idea that we're not in the original key unless a) they are listening to it on an mp3 simultaneous with me playing or the change makes it harder for them to sing in their vocal range (usually the opposite is true because I transpose to make the songs fit better into a choral vocal range).


He finally ended the conversation by saying I was wrong, knew nothing about music theory and that it was pointless to talk to me. Of course, that's not before he misconstrued my point about a guitarist with a capo wanting to know the chord position they were playing rather than knowing the actual chord. (If you want a guitarist to play a B with the capo on the 4th fret, you would tell them to play a G). He proceeded to explain to me how each of the guitar strings worked and how chords are spelled on them and told me that I was wrong about the chords.

He said I didn't understand the basics of guitar and that someone with a capo on said fret wouldn't be playing a G, but a B (something I'd already stated, but he had decided missed). My point being that if I told them to play a B through a tab or in person they would most likely try to play a B barre chord and end up sounding a D#.

I'm sure there are some guitarists out here who have looked for tabs and would be horrified to find a chord sheet that told them to put the capo on a given fret and then only told them what the sounding chords were rather than physical chord shapes they were playing.

[Ouch!]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

[DMKA]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

That actually has happened numerous times in my room. :p

[nik0tine]

Unless you have perfect pitch or synesthesia they sound the same to the listener.As someone who does have synesthesia I cannot at all fathom how the same chords in different keys have the exact same effect on people without synesthesia. Sure, they make the same argument irrespective of key, but I liken it to hearing a poem read by two different speakers. It's the same words, but the effect on the listener is different.

However, the same chord progression in different keys does have different meaning when played back to back. It only holds to reason then, that when listening to the radio an (unintentional) effect will occur on the listeners subconscious because they keep hearing the same progression juxtaposed with other songs.



It's actually been a back and forth on reddit. I can give you the link if you like. It started by someone posting a mash up of Justin Bieber's Baby and Slipknot's Psychosocial.This, to me, is proof that the same chord progression can be expressed an infinite number of ways. This gives the tried and true chord progressions like I-IV-V a valid reason to continue existing.


I forget the specifics, but one person was saying how the changed the songs to make them fit. I told them of course they did; they'd have to transpose all the songs into the same key for it sound coherent, but that doesn't change the song in any meaningful way because it's still the same chord progression.I don't think this is true. It might hold true with four chord music, but anything more complex than that usually chooses a specific key for a specific reason. Try playing the opening bars of Beethovens fifth in, say, A minor. It sounds terrible. It's either too high pitched or two low pitched, depending on where you play it. That music is in C minor for a reason. Transpose the fifth and it truly loses something.

When I write music I generally start by choosing an emotion or color I want to convey (and color and emotion, I believe, are intrinsically linked. Furthermore, there is some universality to them. Nobody would describe red as a 'cool' color). If I want a light purple I am likely to choose Bb or F# minor. If I want a deep purple I'll choose G minor. If I want different shades of blue I'll pick B minor or Ab major. If I want mysterious I'll probably pick C# minor but if I want evil I might pick D#.
From the onset, these colors have an involuntary influence on every decision I make. If I began a piece in E minor there is no possible way I could ever have written that music had I started in any other key.
If this is true, does transposition not take something away (and add something new) from the music?

[NorthernChaosGod]

Unless one a trained musician or has heard a song recently, I doubt the average person would be able to tell the difference between a song in a different key and the original key.

I play piano pieces in different keys all the time (usually to avoid accidentals). :p I don't think people notice anything until I say anything about it.

[I Don't Need A Name]

Ueah, I've discovered that most non-musical people rarely pick up on you playing something in a different key, unless it sounds completey wrong.