Perhaps the greatest cutscene of all time: Genesis v Sephiroth

[Hollycat]

WHo else thinks this may very well be the greatest cutscene ever featured in a game? If you are confused as to which one this is go to google images and type genesis vs sephiroth.

This battle is just..... epic

[I am also going to take this opportunity to announce that I am going to make a complete guide for FF7 crisis core covering every aspect of the game, and make it available only for EoFF]

[Shaibana]

aaah u meen the fight on the Mako Reactor??
ya i looooooved that one.. got a seperate savegame for that scene xD just to watch it over once in a while
that scene could have been straight out of a movie :3

[Crop]

Everyone knows the best cutscene in a Final Fantasy game is the one in VII when Weapon is attacking Midgar and Rufus ends up dying.
Either that or the combined cutscenes of Weapon attacking Junon.

I have save games near both those points for if I ever want to watch them.

[Hollycat]

have you played CC crop? if not, go online and find the battle between genesis and sephiroth on youtube, it is....
epic.

[Crop]

I watched it then and it was just as I expected it. An over the top high flying fight scene like something out of AC (which I didn't like). I've never been a fan of those types of fights. Just not my style.

[Hollycat]

whatever, I loved it

[Rase]

It just felt like a super-pandering cutscene made for fanboys to wank off to. No offense meant it you're into that, but it wouldn't even strike me as the best cutscene in an FF game, let alone in all of videogames. Hell, if I wanted an over-the-top action scene I'd probably pick Raiden vs. Vamp from MGS4 for sheer ludicrousness, or the intro to DMC3 for style. To each their own though.

[Dreddz]

I find Squares style of fantasy action a little too over the top for my liking. I always admire their cutscenes on a technical level though.

[Hollycat]

I like the intro too, but I find it weird that zack can jump for about a quarter mile.

fine the greatest action cutscene of all time then.

[Carl the Llama]

I like the intro too, but I find it weird that zack can jump for about a quarter mile.

fine the greatest action cutscene of all time then.

I do believe Mr. HC that that title belongs to this intro: YouTube - Onimusha 3: Demon Siege opening (HQ remastered) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-tH2bGF7UQ)

[Wolf Kanno]

It just felt like a super-pandering cutscene made for fanboys to wank off to. No offense meant it you're into that, but it wouldn't even strike me as the best cutscene in an FF game, let alone in all of video-games. Hell, if I wanted an over-the-top action scene I'd probably pick Raiden vs. Vamp from MGS4 for sheer ludicrousness, or the intro to DMC3 for style. To each their own though.

This.

If I was going for sheer best cutscenes in a game... There are a few and most wouldn't make sense out of context.

I don't care for the Genesis vs. Sephiroth vs. Angeal fight, partially cause I really hate Genesis as a villain and as a character, and as an idea... and also because I personally never like the Crouching Tiger Hidden Dagger/ DBZ-fication of the VII series that the Compilation created. I don't believe that Cloud and Sephiroth can cut down buildings, that Cloud can take a bullet to the head and only break his glasses, that Sephiroth can dissect the Mako Cannon effortlessly, that Zack can slice missiles out of the air, and that Zack can single handily defeat most of the Shin-Ra army, or that Sephy can sprout a black wing as a side effect of Jenova cells (despite Jenova never showing she had wings or traits of wings) and any other over the top BS they added in the Compilation as something that could theoretically happen in FFVII. Cloud is physically and more magically powerful than a human and Sephiroth is significantly more powerful than that? Sure, no problem, but when it escalates to destroying entire cities effortlessly, its now been taken over by the power of cheese.

I can accept stuff like this in DMC cause DMC is not super serious (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CumydKsSz-g&feature=related) and pretty much plays this kind of stuff for laughs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr336JzMBmY&feature=related). I also don't mind it so much when a show has this kind of things, but trying to redress something with this over the top nonsense doesn't usually go over very well with me.

[Carl the Llama]

This.

If I was going for sheer best cutscenes in a game... There are a few and most wouldn't make sense out of context.

I don't care for the Genesis vs. Sephiroth vs. Angeal fight, partially cause I really hate Genesis as a villain and as a character, and as an idea... and also because I personally never like the Crouching Tiger Hidden Dagger/ DBZ-fication of the VII series that the Compilation created. I don't believe that Cloud and Sephiroth can cut down buildings, that Cloud can take a bullet to the head and only break his glasses, that Sephiroth can dissect the Mako Cannon effortlessly, that Zack can slice missiles out of the air, and that Zack can single handily defeat most of the Shin-Ra army, or that Sephy can sprout a black wing as a side effect of Jenova cells (despite Jenova never showing she had wings or traits of wings) and any other over the top BS they added in the Compilation as something that could theoretically happen in FFVII. Cloud is physically and more magically powerful than a human and Sephiroth is significantly more powerful than that? Sure, no problem, but when it escalates to destroying entire cities effortlessly, its now been taken over by the power of cheese.

I can accept stuff like this in DMC cause DMC is not super serious (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CumydKsSz-g&feature=related) and pretty much plays this kind of stuff for laughs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr336JzMBmY&feature=related). I also don't mind it so much when a show has this kind of things, but trying to redress something with this over the top nonsense doesn't usually go over very well with me.

First off, who said that the guns they use in FFVII series use bullets? not once in the movie did I see Yazoo reload his gun, just bang bang bang rinse and repeat, for all we know it could be something akin to the plasma cannon (in the theory that it doesn't use bullets) second of all, the game/movie is part of a fantasy setting, if guns in the game were anything meant to be like real guns then they never would have continued, take the Barret vs Dyne fight, how many times did those 2 shoot each other during that battle?

About Cloud and Sephiroth chopping through buildings with a single blow, it could happen, obviously not in real life, but they have spirit energy that can say, put large rends into scenery, who is to say that when they chop through the buildings that they are not expending some of that spirit energy.

Jenova doesn't have wings? what are those things behind her back? http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy/images/2/24/Jenova_Headless.jpg

At the end of the day, trying to put real life logic into a game that has Fantasy right there in the title if you'll excuse me, is just plain silly.

[Wolf Kanno]

First off, who said that the guns they use in FFVII series use bullets? not once in the movie did I see Yazoo reload his gun, just bang bang bang rinse and repeat, for all we know it could be something akin to the plasma cannon (in the theory that it doesn't use bullets) second of all, the game/movie is part of a fantasy setting, if guns in the game were anything meant to be like real guns then they never would have continued, take the Barret vs Dyne fight, how many times did those 2 shoot each other during that battle?

Where to begin... Well first off, I would say that switching a small piece of metal for a a concentrated piece of energy that would melt a human face off is kind of a bad choice of alternative fire power.

Next, I would point out that in VII itself, the party is very quick to avoid avoid confrontation with Shin-Ra troops and are more than a few times chased off by gunfire that even Cloud wished to avoid. If guns were ineffective, they wouldn't be the standard issue weapon of Shin-Ra troops, also the guns of typical soldiers within VII, were strong enough to do enough serious damage to cause Barret and Dyne to have to replace their hands and part of their forearms which is completely realistic. Zack himself is killed by several shots in the head. This is all within the realms of belief and is fairly close to the real world, no one uses a magic gun within the actual storyline that is ever dictated to ever be more or less of what an average person would say is a gun. So I would argue the original game firmly establishes that guns are as serious of a real weapon as any real gun would be, in the actual story itself.

You also cannot use a battle in a game, which is dictated by the rules of the genre itself, as evidence of story; cause if the guns were portrayed realistically, whoever attacked first would have won which makes for a rather boring and anti-climatic fight. It would be like trying to make Soul Calibur use realistic sword fighting, duels would end based on who landed a blow first and it doesn't make for a game. We can use suspension of disbelief cause we're dealing with the part of the package that is the actual interactive game part.



About Cloud and Sephiroth chopping through buildings with a single blow, it could happen, obviously not in real life, but they have spirit energy that can say, put large rends into scenery, who is to say that when they chop through the buildings that they are not expending some of that spirit energy.

And once again, I would point out that their is no in-game reference of them being capable of this in VII itself. Sephiroth is powerful enough to slay Dragons on his own and he is physically strong enough to lift a grown man with one hand and bare its weight effortlessly, but he never showed any power to slice through structures like the Mako Cannon and Shin-Ra main office like it was tin foil. I might be able to give Sephy the benefit of the doubt since he doesn't physically show his power to the player in the game but watching him pull crap like that is less awe and more like compensation on the creative teams part.

Cloud, I am not doubting is strong, but you never watch him "rend the scenery" in the main game. Cloud will often run from fights he feels are losing battles, in the game, he even needs help from a dolphin to get him up to the raffling so he can slowly climb his way up to Junon, whereas in AC, he can magically jump 20ft. in the air, hang there as if it was ground, and defy other laws of physics. Despite the original game showing that Cloud's abilties are limited, certainly greater than a normal human being but seeing how SOLDIER 1st Class are normal enemies you can fight wave after wave of, I would say the Compilation went overboard trying to pander to fans into making them the most elite, most powerful super soldiers in the world who can beat Son Goku and Kenshiro with one arm tied behind their back, and that's just the 3rd class SOLDIERS. :roll2

The point is that the original game established how things work in the game and the Compilation has ignored it so they can juice up the series, and make VII like any other over the top shonen anime series.


Jenova doesn't have wings? what are those things behind her back? http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy/images/2/24/Jenova_Headless.jpg

You know, its a funny thing about shape shifters, cause we know JENOVA isn't human but only took the Cetra's form, she's even got an eye growing out of one of those "wings"

Considering not a single other form:

34370 34371 34372

None of them have wings, especially the feathery kind Sephy gained, though her last form looks slightly a pineapple so maybe she's actually a plant...



At the end of the day, trying to put real life logic into a game that has Fantasy right there in the title if you'll excuse me, is just plain silly.

No, it just means I don't settle for :bou::bou::bou::bou:ty writing. Any moron can write a "fantasy" story that allows anything, a good writer establishes boundaries and uses logic to not only keep their audience within the realm of belief but also logical parallels allow the audience to accept things and create an idea of what to expect while the author surprises him. If a conjurer casts a fire spell and uses gunpowder, ashes, and a lit candle as part of the ingredient for his incantation, you're not going to be expecting him to grow grass or make a bird just because it happens to be "magic and fantasy and thus anything can go!" no, you expect a fire spell or an explanation as to why we got a different result.

If Hollywood made a Lord of the Rings sequel and had Argorn leaping over buildings and cutting mountain tops in half with Frodo flying in outer space hurling meteors at the surface of Middle Earth with his bare hands, and the writers just tried to play it off like they could always do that; you wouldn't just sit there are accept it cause "its fantasy". :p Sure magic exists in Middle Earth and maybe they gained some lost power, but you would notice this sudden upgrade in power is a bit different from what the original films/books established and would probably like an explanation that is more than just "they could always do that".

Even then, this isn't about criticizing logic in fantasy/sci-fi writing, this has more to do with the fact that the original games story established several principles in the world (guns work in this world on other things like they would in the real world, Cloud is knows when not to bring a sword to a gun fight, he can't scale city walls by running really fast, and he has never shown the ability to hack a building in half) and that its knockoff compilations have changed the rules for no goddamn good reason besides "it looks kewl".

[Sefie1999AD]

I didn't think the fight between Genesis and Sephiroth (and Angeal) was that great. It had some good parts and it was visually stunning, but the fight was pretty short, and if I understood correctly, it was just a training battle, and the Mako Cannon atmosphere was an illusion. That kind of things greatly reduced the epicness of the battle, IMHO. Is it just me, or is Nomura starting to repeat himself by constantly showing high-flying battles that define the laws of gravity?

[Carl the Llama]

Where to begin... Well first off, I would say that switching a small piece of metal for a a concentrated piece of energy that would melt a human face off is kind of a bad choice of alternative fire power.

Bad choice or not, yes or no, do you ever see any of the Shin-Ra troops or Barret or Dyne or any of the other multiple gun users reload at any point during the game? no, you do not, so logic (if it can be applied in a game with Fantasy in its title) dictates that an alternative must be made, how other then what I suggested before, do you suppose that that can keep on firing non stop all the time?


Next, I would point out that in VII itself, the party is very quick to avoid avoid confrontation with Shin-Ra troops and are more than a few times chased off by gunfire that even Cloud wished to avoid.

I believe that they wished to avoid the fight with Shin-Ra (I assume your talking about when Cloud Barret and Tifa storm Shin-Ra HQ) so I say to that the following:


Tifa: (to Cloud) ……What's wrong?

Cloud: I didn't want to start a ruckus till we saved Aerith. I should have
known that was impossible though…



Additionally, I doubt Cloud wants to kill every single soldier, these were once his comrades, would you want to be responsible for that many death's wanting to avoid all those battles is obviously the better choice, and besides, if Cloud were not able to take on the hundreds and thousands of soldiers that the Shin-Ra used to fight weapon, you saw how inneffective they were, the Mako cannon had to finish off Sapphire Weapon, yet some how, Cloud and 2 other fighters can manage to take down Emerald, Ruby and Ultima Weapons, this is to me, the power that standard weapons (swords, fists, spears ect) have.


If guns were ineffective, they wouldn't be the standard issue weapon of Shin-Ra troops, also the guns of typical soldiers within VII, were strong enough to do enough serious damage to cause Barret and Dyne to have to replace their hands and part of their forearms which is completely realistic.

If guns were ineffective they wouldn't be standard issue? no, guns were issued because (imo) they are easy to use and don't require large physical strength like say... a sword or a spear would? ok :greenie:

With regards to them doing "serious" damage to Barret's and Dyne's arms, how would you suppose that the game fit Barret's and Dyne's back story about how they hate the Shin-Ra, about how Barret isn't exactly suited to use any other weapon other then a gun.


Zack himself is killed by several shots in the head. This is all within the realms of belief and is fairly close to the real world, no one uses a magic gun within the actual storyline that is ever dictated to ever be more or less of what an average person would say is a gun. So I would argue the original game firmly establishes that guns are as serious of a real weapon as any real gun would be, in the actual story itself.

Yes, Zack is killed by a huge amount of gunfire (not several shots) as evidenced in CC and of course it was in the game script that he should die. the fact is, when Cloud first jumps off of the train he is attacked by two Shin-Ra grunts... how much damage did these "guns that are as serious a weapons as of those in real life" the answer is 4hp... 4, if they were as serious as guns in real life then Cloud would jump off the train and the Shin-Ra grunts would kill the entire Avalanche crew in a matter of minutes. Don't forget the flashback is what Cloud recalls after being dosed up on Jenova cells.


You also cannot use a battle in a game, which is dictated by the rules of the genre itself, as evidence of story; cause if the guns were portrayed realistically, whoever attacked first would have won which makes for a rather boring and anti-climatic fight. It would be like trying to make Soul Calibur use realistic sword fighting, duels would end based on who landed a blow first and it doesn't make for a game. We can use suspension of disbelief cause we're dealing with the part of the package that is the actual interactive game part.

Something we agree upon xD so I'm confused, you say guns are as real and serious a weapon as in real life then you argue that they are not.


And once again, I would point out that their is no in-game reference of them being capable of this in VII itself. Sephiroth is powerful enough to slay Dragons on his own and he is physically strong enough to lift a grown man with one hand and bare its weight effortlessly, but he never showed any power to slice through structures like the Mako Cannon and Shin-Ra main office like it was tin foil. I might be able to give Sephy the benefit of the doubt since he doesn't physically show his power to the player in the game but watching him pull crap like that is less awe and more like compensation on the creative teams part.

Cloud, I am not doubting is strong, but you never watch him "rend the scenery" in the main game. Cloud will often run from fights he feels are losing battles, in the game, he even needs help from a dolphin to get him up to the raffling so he can slowly climb his way up to Junon, whereas in AC, he can magically jump 20ft. in the air, hang there as if it was ground, and defy other laws of physics. Despite the original game showing that Cloud's abilties are limited, certainly greater than a normal human being but seeing how SOLDIER 1st Class are normal enemies you can fight wave after wave of, I would say the Compilation went overboard trying to pander to fans into making them the most elite, most powerful super soldiers in the world who can beat Son Goku and Kenshiro with one arm tied behind their back, and that's just the 3rd class SOLDIERS. :roll2

So you concede that Sephiroth may very well be able to rend the scenery but Cloud who we are with the entire game cannot, the same Cloud that beat Sephiroth twice, once during the game and once during the film. Yes I concede the point that the fight scene if not the entire film was made to make the fans of ffvii happy, and seeing the fight between Sephiroth and Cloud imo was awesome, so it had the desired effect, it wasn't about basing the film in realism (like how some cells can make Kadaj into Sephiroth) but making the fans happy, to which I say that if the fight was based on the game principles it would not have been as good in my opinion, no they had to liven it up by making it into a fight of titanic proportions instead of Sephiroth: attack, Cloud attack too, rinse and repeat.

The point is that the original game established how things work in the game and the Compilation has ignored it so they can juice up the series, and make VII like any other over the top shonen anime series.



Jenova doesn't have wings? what are those things behind her back? http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy/images/2/24/Jenova_Headless.jpg

You know, its a funny thing about shape shifters, cause we know JENOVA isn't human but only took the Cetra's form, she's even got an eye growing out of one of those "wings"

Considering not a single other form:

34370 34371 34372

None of them have wings, especially the feathery kind Sephy gained, though her last form looks slightly a pineapple so maybe she's actually a plant...

Your exact words were "(despite Jenova never showing she had wings or traits of wings) " all I was pointing out was that you were mistaken, that she did indeed have wings, or if you like "the traits of wings" for all we know the first form of her body had wings, now she is where she is after being a "Calamity from the Sky" she no longer needs her wings, or perhaps the first form we see of her (for all intents and purposes, that was he first form) and she evolved into a more powerful form that ha no use for wings.



At the end of the day, trying to put real life logic into a game that has Fantasy right there in the title if you'll excuse me, is just plain silly.

No, it just means I don't settle for :bou::bou::bou::bou:ty writing. Any moron can write a "fantasy" story that allows anything, a good writer establishes boundaries and uses logic to not only keep their audience within the realm of belief but also logical parallels allow the audience to accept things and create an idea of what to expect while the author surprises him. If a conjurer casts a fire spell and uses gunpowder, ashes, and a lit candle as part of the ingredient for his incantation, you're not going to be expecting him to grow grass or make a bird just because it happens to be "magic and fantasy and thus anything can go!" no, you expect a fire spell or an explanation as to why we got a different result.

Of course it had :bou::bou::bou::bou:ty writing, its basically a massive fan service, but then I never expected The Shawshank Redemption or Romeo and Juliet, I expected great graphics, awesome battles and death defying stunts, so I got what I paid for, if you don't like the film then that is of course your right, but in my opinion the film was exactly how I wanted it to be.


If Hollywood made a Lord of the Rings sequel and had Aragorn leaping over buildings and cutting mountain tops in half with Frodo flying in outer space hurling meteors at the surface of Middle Earth with his bare hands, and the writers just tried to play it off like they could always do that; you wouldn't just sit there are accept it cause "its fantasy". :p Sure magic exists in Middle Earth and maybe they gained some lost power, but you would notice this sudden upgrade in power is a bit different from what the original films/books established and would probably like an explanation that is more than just "they could always do that".

Every film has its differences, like I said I got exactly the film I expected to get, arguing that "they couldn't do that before" I feel doesn't apply here as one is a game with game based experiences the other is a film, tell me, if you were the director of FFVII:AC then what would you have done with the film? make all the battles based on the ground with no jumping or flying through the air.


Even then, this isn't about criticizing logic in fantasy/sci-fi writing, this has more to do with the fact that the original games story established several principles in the world (guns work in this world on other things like they would in the real world, Cloud is knows when not to bring a sword to a gun fight, he can't scale city walls by running really fast, and he has never shown the ability to hack a building in half) and that its knockoff compilations have changed the rules for no goddamn good reason besides "it looks kewl".

Like many of my other reasoning's I feel this point has already been covered, yes "it looks "kewl"" yes they have never done this in the game, and despite many people complaining about the changes that they made, Squeenix did change the, so what we have now is Cannon so saying "I don't like the changes etc" is your own personal choice, regardless what we now have is what Squeenix deems cannon so saying anything other then that is pointless, Cloud can chop through buildings and Sephiroth can fly through the air.

All this was done so Squeenix can make money, this is also true about FFVII so calling it a knock off is pointless, they did what they did to maximize profits, after all thats why they make games ect. to make money.


Off topic, curse you for making me type all that, its like the posts I used to make back when I had the time and inclination to do so lol, please if you do reply to every point I make then that is of course your right, but if I don't reply its most likely to be lack of effort not acquiescence to your views about my views lol.

[Shaibana]

btw that reminds me,..
i know it way off topic but i hopes some1 could quickly answer my question (a)
In Advent Children cloud comes to see Rufus when he turnes to Rude and says: 'do i feel sorry for you'
whats the story behind that? :o

[Skyblade]

If Sephiroth swinging his sword could cut through the entire Mako Cannon cleanly without even touching most of it (his sword isn't that long), then how come when he went totally psychotic in the Mako Reactor he didn't cut through a single one of those little monster tanks?

[Wolf Kanno]

You know I have nothing better to do, so of course I'll reply. ;)



Bad choice or not, yes or no, do you ever see any of the Shin-Ra troops or Barret or Dyne or any of the other multiple gun users reload at any point during the game? no, you do not, so logic (if it can be applied in a game with Fantasy in its title) dictates that an alternative must be made, how other then what I suggested before, do you suppose that that can keep on firing non stop all the time?

You never see anyone reload but if you watch the enemies fire carefully, bullet shells do come out of their guns. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBvnot7pkvg&feature=related) :D

A) You never see a story sequence where someone empties their clips, and B) Pointing out we're using game mechanics, there is no need to see reloading if it doesn't serve a purpose. We never see the party eat or go to the bathroom, but it doesn't mean they didn't, since the world has both.

The other thing to note, is you never see people reload weapons in movies unless it serves a story purpose (we need a conversation between the heroes so they get close together and reload while the gunfight rages onward, we need to raise the tension of the film so someone mentions they only have one more clip, we want a dramatic finale, so we show the hero only has one bullet left) so its not like any entertainment medium stays true to some rigid idea of full realism.



I believe that they wished to avoid the fight with Shin-Ra (I assume your talking about when Cloud Barret and Tifa storm Shin-Ra HQ) so I say to that the following:


Tifa: (to Cloud) ……What's wrong?

Cloud: I didn't want to start a ruckus till we saved Aerith. I should have
known that was impossible though…



Additionally, I doubt Cloud wants to kill every single soldier, these were once his comrades, would you want to be responsible for that many death's wanting to avoid all those battles is obviously the better choice, and besides, if Cloud were not able to take on the hundreds and thousands of soldiers that the Shin-Ra used to fight weapon, you saw how inneffective they were, the Mako cannon had to finish off Sapphire Weapon, yet some how, Cloud and 2 other fighters can manage to take down Emerald, Ruby and Ultima Weapons, this is to me, the power that standard weapons (swords, fists, spears ect) have.

There are several times the party is running from gunfire, going after the large materia in Junon has a few times where the party is running from gunfire as well as when they tried to leave after Shin-Ra botched the public execution. There are quite a few moments, but considering in the Compilation, Zack can fight several battalions of Shin-Ra troops with air support single handedly, I can't fathom why Cloud would ever care about fighting large groups of people.

Also, Cloud never once seems to have regrets killing Shin-Ra troops, hell, he was willing to cause industrial accidents that killed actual innocent people for money, so I can't really take the idea he felt a bit of remorse and caring for former allies, of many he probably didn't even know.

As for the WEAPONS, nothing in the game's story, Compilation, and Ultimania Guides has ever suggested the party beat the WEAPONS. They could fight off Diamond but it was the Sister Ray drawing on the power of Mako that killed it. Ultima, Emerald, and Ruby never even show up until after Sephiroth's barrier has been smashed and considering the game throws you in there at the start of the Disc 3 into the Northern Crater, and after the big fuss Cloud made about saying your final goodbyes, I don't really imagine the party left so they can raise Chocobos and get super materia to beat down three monsters the game had already stated would disappear as long as Holy was released. So its very reasonably to assume Holy did the job and not the party.

Besides, the party technically didn't beat the WEAPONS, Summoning Bahamut Zero to orbital strike the WEAPONS or summoning a bakers dozen of spiritual knights the size of skyscrapers a few dozen times was what really took them down. We should give credit where it's due. ;)




If guns were ineffective they wouldn't be standard issue? no, guns were issued because (imo) they are easy to use and don't require large physical strength like say... a sword or a spear would? ok :greenie:

But that's why they are standard issue cause not everyone is skilled. They are great weapons for the average layman, hence standard issue. Even Vincent uses them and he really doesn't need them considering his real powers but he's just as effective with his guns as those swords and spears you keep mentioning.


With regards to them doing "serious" damage to Barret's and Dyne's arms, how would you suppose that the game fit Barret's and Dyne's back story about how they hate the Shin-Ra, about how Barret isn't exactly suited to use any other weapon other then a gun.

So your argument is that guns are completely ineffective weapons in the world of VII, until they serve a story purpose, and then the work just as you would expect... I don't think it works that way. :eep:



Yes, Zack is killed by a huge amount of gunfire (not several shots) as evidenced in CC and of course it was in the game script that he should die. the fact is, when Cloud first jumps off of the train he is attacked by two Shin-Ra grunts... how much damage did these "guns that are as serious a weapons as of those in real life" the answer is 4hp... 4, if they were as serious as guns in real life then Cloud would jump off the train and the Shin-Ra grunts would kill the entire Avalanche crew in a matter of minutes. Don't forget the flashback is what Cloud recalls after being dosed up on Jenova cells.

Well first off, I don't count anything in the Compilation as canon so don't try to use CC's ending as evidence cause that was completely ridiculous if you ask me and I happen to really like Zack, but I can't stand by the fact they made him "Dynasty Warrior" his way through the Shin-Ra army to eventually die. In the actual VII, Zack doesn't get back up after being shot in the head and give Cloud a sappy speech about being his "legacy" crap. I prefer him dying senselessly cause it fits with VII's theme of things happening unexpectedly like Aerith's death, not some grand drawn out last heroes moment.

I like his death being simple and senseless cause Zack is one of the most important figures in Clouds past so to have him go out like that, seems rather fitting. He died in the middle of nowhere, by what appears to be a handful of Shin-Ra troops, only a few miles from where he wanted to be. It makes for a better tragedy, whereas CC makes it into a heroic sacrifice, which is ironic cause Nomura and Kitase wanted to get away from that when they made VII. For the rest of the argument, head down...



Something we agree upon xD so I'm confused, you say guns are as real and serious a weapon as in real life then you argue that they are not.

You miss the part where I say that guns are treated realistically within the story, game mechanics are a completely different story cause they are not really based on anything. You don't think I actually believe that every random encounter should be treated as something that happened? Hell, I don't even believe that mechanics like "leveling" happen in the story. If VII was a movie, beyond the materia he gains over the film and Limit Breaks he created through different and let's just assume dramatic fashion, the Cloud who enters the Mako Reactor at the beginning is physically the same as the one that fights Sephy at the end in terms of capabilities, he doesn't gain the ability to take more hits or kill people faster.

Leveling and damage output has no bearing ever in a story, and I will never understand why people can't seem to understand why both need to be treated as different circumstances. I don't believe Ultima in IX does 9999 damage, I know it can seriously fuck my party up cause I did watch it level the surface of the planet and I can't fathom how anyone would survive that.

Bringing this back to Cloud and the troops in the beginning, Cloud and the party still deal with the rising power of guns and other weapons as the game progresses, cause this is all game mechanics, if guns worked in the game like they did the the story, Cloud and Barret never would have been able to leave the Mako factory. Also, no one wants to play a game where your handed a blade and everything else has guns that can instantly kill you, doesn't make for a fun experience.

To tie this back up to the original point of all this, while I feel guns work realistically in VII, I don't necessarily feel all mechanics in the world work like the real world (obviously) and I do believe that Cloud certainly has extraordinary physiology that allows him to do things no mere human can, this is not even counting the use of Materia. I believe Cloud can take a bullet, probably several cause I'm sure his body can easily take more punishment than a normal human could, but I do feel their are still limits, hence why I don't feel Cloud could survive being shot in the brain or heart. I still feel it would kill him like any other sap which is why watching him get shot in the face in AC and the amount of damage he took was just breaking his glasses, especially since every other thing on the planet has no issues hurting him.



So you concede that Sephiroth may very well be able to rend the scenery but Cloud who we are with the entire game cannot, the same Cloud that beat Sephiroth twice, once during the game and once during the film.

Even Kitase and the Ultimania makes it perfectly clear that Sephiroth is far greater than Cloud and anyone else for that matter, and that both defeats are caused by Sephiroth underestimating Cloud. Hell, chances are still possible that Zack is stronger than Cloud.



Yes I concede the point that the fight scene if not the entire film was made to make the fans of ffvii happy, and seeing the fight between Sephiroth and Cloud imo was awesome, so it had the desired effect, it wasn't about basing the film in realism (like how some cells can make Kadaj into Sephiroth) but making the fans happy, to which I say that if the fight was based on the game principles it would not have been as good in my opinion, no they had to liven it up by making it into a fight of titanic proportions instead of Sephiroth: attack, Cloud attack too, rinse and repeat.

Livening it up is one thing, going over the top TO THE MUTHA FUCKING EXTREEEEEEEEMMMMMMMMMMMEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!! is what AC did. Even the development team in interviews has conceded they went overboard for the project. If you like that kind of stuff, be my guest but I never felt like VII needed to be pumped up like that, it feels to me like the VII creators decided VII wasn't good enough as is and needed to pumped up cause it wouldn't have cut it. I personally feel the over the top elements cheapen the entire experience cause it shows the film has to rely on flash over substance but that's just my opinion.


Your exact words were "(despite Jenova never showing she had wings or traits of wings) " all I was pointing out was that you were mistaken, that she did indeed have wings, or if you like "the traits of wings" for all we know the first form of her body had wings, now she is where she is after being a "Calamity from the Sky" she no longer needs her wings, or perhaps the first form we see of her (for all intents and purposes, that was he first form) and she evolved into a more powerful form that ha no use for wings.

I don't believe those are wings though, they are two masses of flesh and organs that happen to be justting out of her back, for all we know, its actually her fileted back muscles from Hojo and Gast experimenting on her. As for the Calamity from the Sky bit, that has more to do with the fact the game specifically states she came to VII's world via meteor as a transport. She's a calamity and she came from the sky via meteor, hence the name.

We never get to even see her true form, for all we know she doesn't have one since she shape shifts. I also don' see how shape-shifting as a Cetra to infiltrate them is going to work if she has "wings" jutting out of her back.



Of course it had :bou::bou::bou::bou:ty writing, its basically a massive fan service, but then I never expected The Shawshank Redemption or Romeo and Juliet, I expected great graphics, awesome battles and death defying stunts, so I got what I paid for, if you don't like the film then that is of course your right, but in my opinion the film was exactly how I wanted it to be.

Well as long as your happy.




Every film has its differences, like I said I got exactly the film I expected to get, arguing that "they couldn't do that before" I feel doesn't apply here as one is a game with game based experiences the other is a film, tell me, if you were the director of FFVII:AC then what would you have done with the film? make all the battles based on the ground with no jumping or flying through the air.

Yeah, I wouldn't have them flying in the air. Believe me, you don't want to get me started on what I would have done but unlike you I feel VII the game established rules of the world and I feel those rules could have worked in an action film without "pumping it up to 11". Hell, several fights in AC I felt were or could have been acceptable. Its some of the final battles that are over the top and the John Woo stuff could have been toned down.




Like many of my other reasoning's I feel this point has already been covered, yes "it looks "kewl"" yes they have never done this in the game, and despite many people complaining about the changes that they made, Squeenix did change the, so what we have now is Cannon so saying "I don't like the changes etc" is your own personal choice, regardless what we now have is what Squeenix deems cannon so saying anything other then that is pointless, Cloud can chop through buildings and Sephiroth can fly through the air.

All this was done so Squeenix can make money, this is also true about FFVII so calling it a knock off is pointless, they did what they did to maximize profits, after all thats why they make games ect. to make money.

Yes, but they won't be getting my money anymore cause they pull this :bou::bou::bou::bou:.



Off topic, curse you for making me type all that, its like the posts I used to make back when I had the time and inclination to do so lol, please if you do reply to every point I make then that is of course your right, but if I don't reply its most likely to be lack of effort not acquiescence to your views about my views lol.

Lol, its cool. Its been awhile since I got into one of these paragraph debats myself.:D

[Carl the Llama]

You know I have nothing better to do, so of course I'll reply. ;)



Bad choice or not, yes or no, do you ever see any of the Shin-Ra troops or Barret or Dyne or any of the other multiple gun users reload at any point during the game? no, you do not, so logic (if it can be applied in a game with Fantasy in its title) dictates that an alternative must be made, how other then what I suggested before, do you suppose that that can keep on firing non stop all the time?

You never see anyone reload but if you watch the enemies fire carefully, bullet shells do come out of their guns. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBvnot7pkvg&feature=related) :D

A) You never see a story sequence where someone empties their clips, and B) Pointing out we're using game mechanics, there is no need to see reloading if it doesn't serve a purpose. We never see the party eat or go to the bathroom, but it doesn't mean they didn't, since the world has both.

The other thing to note, is you never see people reload weapons in movies unless it serves a story purpose (we need a conversation between the heroes so they get close together and reload while the gunfight rages onward, we need to raise the tension of the film so someone mentions they only have one more clip, we want a dramatic finale, so we show the hero only has one bullet left) so its not like any entertainment medium stays true to some rigid idea of full realism.



I believe that they wished to avoid the fight with Shin-Ra (I assume your talking about when Cloud Barret and Tifa storm Shin-Ra HQ) so I say to that the following:


Tifa: (to Cloud) ……What's wrong?

Cloud: I didn't want to start a ruckus till we saved Aerith. I should have
known that was impossible though…



Additionally, I doubt Cloud wants to kill every single soldier, these were once his comrades, would you want to be responsible for that many death's wanting to avoid all those battles is obviously the better choice, and besides, if Cloud were not able to take on the hundreds and thousands of soldiers that the Shin-Ra used to fight weapon, you saw how inneffective they were, the Mako cannon had to finish off Sapphire Weapon, yet some how, Cloud and 2 other fighters can manage to take down Emerald, Ruby and Ultima Weapons, this is to me, the power that standard weapons (swords, fists, spears ect) have.

There are several times the party is running from gunfire, going after the large materia in Junon has a few times where the party is running from gunfire as well as when they tried to leave after Shin-Ra botched the public execution. There are quite a few moments, but considering in the Compilation, Zack can fight several battalions of Shin-Ra troops with air support single handedly, I can't fathom why Cloud would ever care about fighting large groups of people.

Also, Cloud never once seems to have regrets killing Shin-Ra troops, hell, he was willing to cause industrial accidents that killed actual innocent people for money, so I can't really take the idea he felt a bit of remorse and caring for former allies, of many he probably didn't even know.

As for the WEAPONS, nothing in the game's story, Compilation, and Ultimania Guides has ever suggested the party beat the WEAPONS. They could fight off Diamond but it was the Sister Ray drawing on the power of Mako that killed it. Ultima, Emerald, and Ruby never even show up until after Sephiroth's barrier has been smashed and considering the game throws you in there at the start of the Disc 3 into the Northern Crater, and after the big fuss Cloud made about saying your final goodbyes, I don't really imagine the party left so they can raise Chocobos and get super materia to beat down three monsters the game had already stated would disappear as long as Holy was released. So its very reasonably to assume Holy did the job and not the party.

Besides, the party technically didn't beat the WEAPONS, Summoning Bahamut Zero to orbital strike the WEAPONS or summoning a bakers dozen of spiritual knights the size of skyscrapers a few dozen times was what really took them down. We should give credit where it's due. ;)




If guns were ineffective they wouldn't be standard issue? no, guns were issued because (imo) they are easy to use and don't require large physical strength like say... a sword or a spear would? ok :greenie:

But that's why they are standard issue cause not everyone is skilled. They are great weapons for the average layman, hence standard issue. Even Vincent uses them and he really doesn't need them considering his real powers but he's just as effective with his guns as those swords and spears you keep mentioning.


With regards to them doing "serious" damage to Barret's and Dyne's arms, how would you suppose that the game fit Barret's and Dyne's back story about how they hate the Shin-Ra, about how Barret isn't exactly suited to use any other weapon other then a gun.

So your argument is that guns are completely ineffective weapons in the world of VII, until they serve a story purpose, and then the work just as you would expect... I don't think it works that way. :eep:



Yes, Zack is killed by a huge amount of gunfire (not several shots) as evidenced in CC and of course it was in the game script that he should die. the fact is, when Cloud first jumps off of the train he is attacked by two Shin-Ra grunts... how much damage did these "guns that are as serious a weapons as of those in real life" the answer is 4hp... 4, if they were as serious as guns in real life then Cloud would jump off the train and the Shin-Ra grunts would kill the entire Avalanche crew in a matter of minutes. Don't forget the flashback is what Cloud recalls after being dosed up on Jenova cells.

Well first off, I don't count anything in the Compilation as canon so don't try to use CC's ending as evidence cause that was completely ridiculous if you ask me and I happen to really like Zack, but I can't stand by the fact they made him "Dynasty Warrior" his way through the Shin-Ra army to eventually die. In the actual VII, Zack doesn't get back up after being shot in the head and give Cloud a sappy speech about being his "legacy" crap. I prefer him dying senselessly cause it fits with VII's theme of things happening unexpectedly like Aerith's death, not some grand drawn out last heroes moment.

I like his death being simple and senseless cause Zack is one of the most important figures in Clouds past so to have him go out like that, seems rather fitting. He died in the middle of nowhere, by what appears to be a handful of Shin-Ra troops, only a few miles from where he wanted to be. It makes for a better tragedy, whereas CC makes it into a heroic sacrifice, which is ironic cause Nomura and Kitase wanted to get away from that when they made VII. For the rest of the argument, head down...



Something we agree upon xD so I'm confused, you say guns are as real and serious a weapon as in real life then you argue that they are not.

You miss the part where I say that guns are treated realistically within the story, game mechanics are a completely different story cause they are not really based on anything. You don't think I actually believe that every random encounter should be treated as something that happened? Hell, I don't even believe that mechanics like "leveling" happen in the story. If VII was a movie, beyond the materia he gains over the film and Limit Breaks he created through different and let's just assume dramatic fashion, the Cloud who enters the Mako Reactor at the beginning is physically the same as the one that fights Sephy at the end in terms of capabilities, he doesn't gain the ability to take more hits or kill people faster.

Leveling and damage output has no bearing ever in a story, and I will never understand why people can't seem to understand why both need to be treated as different circumstances. I don't believe Ultima in IX does 9999 damage, I know it can seriously smurf my party up cause I did watch it level the surface of the planet and I can't fathom how anyone would survive that.

Bringing this back to Cloud and the troops in the beginning, Cloud and the party still deal with the rising power of guns and other weapons as the game progresses, cause this is all game mechanics, if guns worked in the game like they did the the story, Cloud and Barret never would have been able to leave the Mako factory. Also, no one wants to play a game where your handed a blade and everything else has guns that can instantly kill you, doesn't make for a fun experience.

To tie this back up to the original point of all this, while I feel guns work realistically in VII, I don't necessarily feel all mechanics in the world work like the real world (obviously) and I do believe that Cloud certainly has extraordinary physiology that allows him to do things no mere human can, this is not even counting the use of Materia. I believe Cloud can take a bullet, probably several cause I'm sure his body can easily take more punishment than a normal human could, but I do feel their are still limits, hence why I don't feel Cloud could survive being shot in the brain or heart. I still feel it would kill him like any other sap which is why watching him get shot in the face in AC and the amount of damage he took was just breaking his glasses, especially since every other thing on the planet has no issues hurting him.



So you concede that Sephiroth may very well be able to rend the scenery but Cloud who we are with the entire game cannot, the same Cloud that beat Sephiroth twice, once during the game and once during the film.

Even Kitase and the Ultimania makes it perfectly clear that Sephiroth is far greater than Cloud and anyone else for that matter, and that both defeats are caused by Sephiroth underestimating Cloud. Hell, chances are still possible that Zack is stronger than Cloud.



Yes I concede the point that the fight scene if not the entire film was made to make the fans of ffvii happy, and seeing the fight between Sephiroth and Cloud imo was awesome, so it had the desired effect, it wasn't about basing the film in realism (like how some cells can make Kadaj into Sephiroth) but making the fans happy, to which I say that if the fight was based on the game principles it would not have been as good in my opinion, no they had to liven it up by making it into a fight of titanic proportions instead of Sephiroth: attack, Cloud attack too, rinse and repeat.

Livening it up is one thing, going over the top TO THE MUTHA smurfING EXTREEEEEEEEMMMMMMMMMMMEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!! is what AC did. Even the development team in interviews has conceded they went overboard for the project. If you like that kind of stuff, be my guest but I never felt like VII needed to be pumped up like that, it feels to me like the VII creators decided VII wasn't good enough as is and needed to pumped up cause it wouldn't have cut it. I personally feel the over the top elements cheapen the entire experience cause it shows the film has to rely on flash over substance but that's just my opinion.


Your exact words were "(despite Jenova never showing she had wings or traits of wings) " all I was pointing out was that you were mistaken, that she did indeed have wings, or if you like "the traits of wings" for all we know the first form of her body had wings, now she is where she is after being a "Calamity from the Sky" she no longer needs her wings, or perhaps the first form we see of her (for all intents and purposes, that was he first form) and she evolved into a more powerful form that ha no use for wings.

I don't believe those are wings though, they are two masses of flesh and organs that happen to be justting out of her back, for all we know, its actually her fileted back muscles from Hojo and Gast experimenting on her. As for the Calamity from the Sky bit, that has more to do with the fact the game specifically states she came to VII's world via meteor as a transport. She's a calamity and she came from the sky via meteor, hence the name.

We never get to even see her true form, for all we know she doesn't have one since she shape shifts. I also don' see how shape-shifting as a Cetra to infiltrate them is going to work if she has "wings" jutting out of her back.



Of course it had :bou::bou::bou::bou:ty writing, its basically a massive fan service, but then I never expected The Shawshank Redemption or Romeo and Juliet, I expected great graphics, awesome battles and death defying stunts, so I got what I paid for, if you don't like the film then that is of course your right, but in my opinion the film was exactly how I wanted it to be.

Well as long as your happy.




Every film has its differences, like I said I got exactly the film I expected to get, arguing that "they couldn't do that before" I feel doesn't apply here as one is a game with game based experiences the other is a film, tell me, if you were the director of FFVII:AC then what would you have done with the film? make all the battles based on the ground with no jumping or flying through the air.

Yeah, I wouldn't have them flying in the air. Believe me, you don't want to get me started on what I would have done but unlike you I feel VII the game established rules of the world and I feel those rules could have worked in an action film without "pumping it up to 11". Hell, several fights in AC I felt were or could have been acceptable. Its some of the final battles that are over the top and the John Woo stuff could have been toned down.




Like many of my other reasoning's I feel this point has already been covered, yes "it looks "kewl"" yes they have never done this in the game, and despite many people complaining about the changes that they made, Squeenix did change the, so what we have now is Cannon so saying "I don't like the changes etc" is your own personal choice, regardless what we now have is what Squeenix deems cannon so saying anything other then that is pointless, Cloud can chop through buildings and Sephiroth can fly through the air.

All this was done so Squeenix can make money, this is also true about FFVII so calling it a knock off is pointless, they did what they did to maximize profits, after all thats why they make games ect. to make money.

Yes, but they won't be getting my money anymore cause they pull this :bou::bou::bou::bou:.



Off topic, curse you for making me type all that, its like the posts I used to make back when I had the time and inclination to do so lol, please if you do reply to every point I make then that is of course your right, but if I don't reply its most likely to be lack of effort not acquiescence to your views about my views lol.

Lol, its cool. Its been awhile since I got into one of these paragraph debats myself.:D

Man alive, I REALLY cba to reply to your post so let me put it in friendly terms: I dissagree :p

[Wolf Kanno]

You know I have nothing better to do, so of course I'll reply. ;)



Bad choice or not, yes or no, do you ever see any of the Shin-Ra troops or Barret or Dyne or any of the other multiple gun users reload at any point during the game? no, you do not, so logic (if it can be applied in a game with Fantasy in its title) dictates that an alternative must be made, how other then what I suggested before, do you suppose that that can keep on firing non stop all the time?

You never see anyone reload but if you watch the enemies fire carefully, bullet shells do come out of their guns. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBvnot7pkvg&feature=related) :D

A) You never see a story sequence where someone empties their clips, and B) Pointing out we're using game mechanics, there is no need to see reloading if it doesn't serve a purpose. We never see the party eat or go to the bathroom, but it doesn't mean they didn't, since the world has both.

The other thing to note, is you never see people reload weapons in movies unless it serves a story purpose (we need a conversation between the heroes so they get close together and reload while the gunfight rages onward, we need to raise the tension of the film so someone mentions they only have one more clip, we want a dramatic finale, so we show the hero only has one bullet left) so its not like any entertainment medium stays true to some rigid idea of full realism.



I believe that they wished to avoid the fight with Shin-Ra (I assume your talking about when Cloud Barret and Tifa storm Shin-Ra HQ) so I say to that the following:


Tifa: (to Cloud) ……What's wrong?

Cloud: I didn't want to start a ruckus till we saved Aerith. I should have
known that was impossible though…



Additionally, I doubt Cloud wants to kill every single soldier, these were once his comrades, would you want to be responsible for that many death's wanting to avoid all those battles is obviously the better choice, and besides, if Cloud were not able to take on the hundreds and thousands of soldiers that the Shin-Ra used to fight weapon, you saw how inneffective they were, the Mako cannon had to finish off Sapphire Weapon, yet some how, Cloud and 2 other fighters can manage to take down Emerald, Ruby and Ultima Weapons, this is to me, the power that standard weapons (swords, fists, spears ect) have.There are several times the party is running from gunfire, going after the large materia in Junon has a few times where the party is running from gunfire as well as when they tried to leave after Shin-Ra botched the public execution. There are quite a few moments, but considering in the Compilation, Zack can fight several battalions of Shin-Ra troops with air support single handedly, I can't fathom why Cloud would ever care about fighting large groups of people.

Also, Cloud never once seems to have regrets killing Shin-Ra troops, hell, he was willing to cause industrial accidents that killed actual innocent people for money, so I can't really take the idea he felt a bit of remorse and caring for former allies, of many he probably didn't even know.

As for the WEAPONS, nothing in the game's story, Compilation, and Ultimania Guides has ever suggested the party beat the WEAPONS. They could fight off Diamond but it was the Sister Ray drawing on the power of Mako that killed it. Ultima, Emerald, and Ruby never even show up until after Sephiroth's barrier has been smashed and considering the game throws you in there at the start of the Disc 3 into the Northern Crater, and after the big fuss Cloud made about saying your final goodbyes, I don't really imagine the party left so they can raise Chocobos and get super materia to beat down three monsters the game had already stated would disappear as long as Holy was released. So its very reasonably to assume Holy did the job and not the party.

Besides, the party technically didn't beat the WEAPONS, Summoning Bahamut Zero to orbital strike the WEAPONS or summoning a bakers dozen of spiritual knights the size of skyscrapers a few dozen times was what really took them down. We should give credit where it's due. ;)




If guns were ineffective they wouldn't be standard issue? no, guns were issued because (imo) they are easy to use and don't require large physical strength like say... a sword or a spear would? ok :greenie:But that's why they are standard issue cause not everyone is skilled. They are great weapons for the average layman, hence standard issue. Even Vincent uses them and he really doesn't need them considering his real powers but he's just as effective with his guns as those swords and spears you keep mentioning.


With regards to them doing "serious" damage to Barret's and Dyne's arms, how would you suppose that the game fit Barret's and Dyne's back story about how they hate the Shin-Ra, about how Barret isn't exactly suited to use any other weapon other then a gun.So your argument is that guns are completely ineffective weapons in the world of VII, until they serve a story purpose, and then the work just as you would expect... I don't think it works that way. :eep:



Yes, Zack is killed by a huge amount of gunfire (not several shots) as evidenced in CC and of course it was in the game script that he should die. the fact is, when Cloud first jumps off of the train he is attacked by two Shin-Ra grunts... how much damage did these "guns that are as serious a weapons as of those in real life" the answer is 4hp... 4, if they were as serious as guns in real life then Cloud would jump off the train and the Shin-Ra grunts would kill the entire Avalanche crew in a matter of minutes. Don't forget the flashback is what Cloud recalls after being dosed up on Jenova cells.

Well first off, I don't count anything in the Compilation as canon so don't try to use CC's ending as evidence cause that was completely ridiculous if you ask me and I happen to really like Zack, but I can't stand by the fact they made him "Dynasty Warrior" his way through the Shin-Ra army to eventually die. In the actual VII, Zack doesn't get back up after being shot in the head and give Cloud a sappy speech about being his "legacy" crap. I prefer him dying senselessly cause it fits with VII's theme of things happening unexpectedly like Aerith's death, not some grand drawn out last heroes moment.

I like his death being simple and senseless cause Zack is one of the most important figures in Clouds past so to have him go out like that, seems rather fitting. He died in the middle of nowhere, by what appears to be a handful of Shin-Ra troops, only a few miles from where he wanted to be. It makes for a better tragedy, whereas CC makes it into a heroic sacrifice, which is ironic cause Nomura and Kitase wanted to get away from that when they made VII. For the rest of the argument, head down...



Something we agree upon xD so I'm confused, you say guns are as real and serious a weapon as in real life then you argue that they are not.You miss the part where I say that guns are treated realistically within the story, game mechanics are a completely different story cause they are not really based on anything. You don't think I actually believe that every random encounter should be treated as something that happened? Hell, I don't even believe that mechanics like "leveling" happen in the story. If VII was a movie, beyond the materia he gains over the film and Limit Breaks he created through different and let's just assume dramatic fashion, the Cloud who enters the Mako Reactor at the beginning is physically the same as the one that fights Sephy at the end in terms of capabilities, he doesn't gain the ability to take more hits or kill people faster.

Leveling and damage output has no bearing ever in a story, and I will never understand why people can't seem to understand why both need to be treated as different circumstances. I don't believe Ultima in IX does 9999 damage, I know it can seriously smurf my party up cause I did watch it level the surface of the planet and I can't fathom how anyone would survive that.

Bringing this back to Cloud and the troops in the beginning, Cloud and the party still deal with the rising power of guns and other weapons as the game progresses, cause this is all game mechanics, if guns worked in the game like they did the the story, Cloud and Barret never would have been able to leave the Mako factory. Also, no one wants to play a game where your handed a blade and everything else has guns that can instantly kill you, doesn't make for a fun experience.

To tie this back up to the original point of all this, while I feel guns work realistically in VII, I don't necessarily feel all mechanics in the world work like the real world (obviously) and I do believe that Cloud certainly has extraordinary physiology that allows him to do things no mere human can, this is not even counting the use of Materia. I believe Cloud can take a bullet, probably several cause I'm sure his body can easily take more punishment than a normal human could, but I do feel their are still limits, hence why I don't feel Cloud could survive being shot in the brain or heart. I still feel it would kill him like any other sap which is why watching him get shot in the face in AC and the amount of damage he took was just breaking his glasses, especially since every other thing on the planet has no issues hurting him.



So you concede that Sephiroth may very well be able to rend the scenery but Cloud who we are with the entire game cannot, the same Cloud that beat Sephiroth twice, once during the game and once during the film. Even Kitase and the Ultimania makes it perfectly clear that Sephiroth is far greater than Cloud and anyone else for that matter, and that both defeats are caused by Sephiroth underestimating Cloud. Hell, chances are still possible that Zack is stronger than Cloud.



Yes I concede the point that the fight scene if not the entire film was made to make the fans of ffvii happy, and seeing the fight between Sephiroth and Cloud imo was awesome, so it had the desired effect, it wasn't about basing the film in realism (like how some cells can make Kadaj into Sephiroth) but making the fans happy, to which I say that if the fight was based on the game principles it would not have been as good in my opinion, no they had to liven it up by making it into a fight of titanic proportions instead of Sephiroth: attack, Cloud attack too, rinse and repeat.Livening it up is one thing, going over the top TO THE MUTHA smurfING EXTREEEEEEEEMMMMMMMMMMMEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!! is what AC did. Even the development team in interviews has conceded they went overboard for the project. If you like that kind of stuff, be my guest but I never felt like VII needed to be pumped up like that, it feels to me like the VII creators decided VII wasn't good enough as is and needed to pumped up cause it wouldn't have cut it. I personally feel the over the top elements cheapen the entire experience cause it shows the film has to rely on flash over substance but that's just my opinion.


Your exact words were "(despite Jenova never showing she had wings or traits of wings) " all I was pointing out was that you were mistaken, that she did indeed have wings, or if you like "the traits of wings" for all we know the first form of her body had wings, now she is where she is after being a "Calamity from the Sky" she no longer needs her wings, or perhaps the first form we see of her (for all intents and purposes, that was he first form) and she evolved into a more powerful form that ha no use for wings.I don't believe those are wings though, they are two masses of flesh and organs that happen to be justting out of her back, for all we know, its actually her fileted back muscles from Hojo and Gast experimenting on her. As for the Calamity from the Sky bit, that has more to do with the fact the game specifically states she came to VII's world via meteor as a transport. She's a calamity and she came from the sky via meteor, hence the name.

We never get to even see her true form, for all we know she doesn't have one since she shape shifts. I also don' see how shape-shifting as a Cetra to infiltrate them is going to work if she has "wings" jutting out of her back.



Of course it had :bou::bou::bou::bou:ty writing, its basically a massive fan service, but then I never expected The Shawshank Redemption or Romeo and Juliet, I expected great graphics, awesome battles and death defying stunts, so I got what I paid for, if you don't like the film then that is of course your right, but in my opinion the film was exactly how I wanted it to be.Well as long as your happy.




Every film has its differences, like I said I got exactly the film I expected to get, arguing that "they couldn't do that before" I feel doesn't apply here as one is a game with game based experiences the other is a film, tell me, if you were the director of FFVII:AC then what would you have done with the film? make all the battles based on the ground with no jumping or flying through the air.Yeah, I wouldn't have them flying in the air. Believe me, you don't want to get me started on what I would have done but unlike you I feel VII the game established rules of the world and I feel those rules could have worked in an action film without "pumping it up to 11". Hell, several fights in AC I felt were or could have been acceptable. Its some of the final battles that are over the top and the John Woo stuff could have been toned down.




Like many of my other reasoning's I feel this point has already been covered, yes "it looks "kewl"" yes they have never done this in the game, and despite many people complaining about the changes that they made, Squeenix did change the, so what we have now is Cannon so saying "I don't like the changes etc" is your own personal choice, regardless what we now have is what Squeenix deems cannon so saying anything other then that is pointless, Cloud can chop through buildings and Sephiroth can fly through the air.

All this was done so Squeenix can make money, this is also true about FFVII so calling it a knock off is pointless, they did what they did to maximize profits, after all thats why they make games ect. to make money.Yes, but they won't be getting my money anymore cause they pull this :bou::bou::bou::bou:.



Off topic, curse you for making me type all that, its like the posts I used to make back when I had the time and inclination to do so lol, please if you do reply to every point I make then that is of course your right, but if I don't reply its most likely to be lack of effort not acquiescence to your views about my views lol.Lol, its cool. Its been awhile since I got into one of these paragraph debats myself.:D

Man alive, I REALLY cba to reply to your post so let me put it in friendly terms: I dissagree :p

Lol, that's fine man, its how most of my debates end. I never really try t convince people to change their minds, I was just stating why I don't buy it but that's my thing and if other people can enjoy it, good for them. So I agree to disagree. :D

[Loony BoB]

My favourite cutscene is the one with Sahz and Vanille where Sahz appears to shoot himself. The whole scene is epic. Having said that, it is slightly ruined by the fact that we already know he survives from cutscenes in the intro sequence and in trailers, but yeah.

[Shaibana]

If Sephiroth swinging his sword could cut through the entire Mako Cannon cleanly without even touching most of it (his sword isn't that long), then how come when he went totally psychotic in the Mako Reactor he didn't cut through a single one of those little monster tanks?

he clearly did that with 'magic' :o

[Goldenboko]

In all honesty, the fight was more interesting when they were having a legitimate Swordfight (so Angeal and Genesis Vs. Sephiroth) then when they decided to make the cutscene "LOOK HOW FAST AND HIGH WE CAN MOVE!!!!!!!"

It also suffered from "NO PROBLEM I NEED TO BE AROUND LATER ON" syndrome when Sephiroth game smacked up by fire spells, and no damage was done to him. I really hate that crap in movies/games/tv shows. When you get INCINERATED, I don't care how powerful you are, you don't come out flawless.

Vamp Vs. Raiden as previously mentioned, better fight cutscene. Not that this one is bad, it just is too "Couching Tiger"-ish.

[Skyblade]

It also suffered from "NO PROBLEM I NEED TO BE AROUND LATER ON" syndrome when Sephiroth game smacked up by fire spells, and no damage was done to him. I really hate that crap in movies/games/tv shows. When you get INCINERATED, I don't care how powerful you are, you don't come out flawless.

And yet even that can be done well. Because when the enemies constantly did Zero damage to Sephiroth in the flashback, that really slammed home just how powerful he was. However, it does work better with the game mechanics than it does with the cutscenes. See Wolf's post for more on that.

[Loony BoB]

Personally, I don't count any fight scene as epic if it is in a simulated environment. Great video, but you couldn't take it seriously.

[Hollycat]

btw that reminds me,..
i know it way off topic but i hopes some1 could quickly answer my question (a)
In Advent Children cloud comes to see Rufus when he turnes to Rude and says: 'do i feel sorry for you'
whats the story behind that? :o

because rufus has literaaly lost everything

[Karifean]

Guns are the most powerful weapons in FF VII. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ovxL1wdjtI)

[Jessweeee♪]

Personally I think the best scene in Crisis Core is the ending. Everybody knows what's coming after playing FFVII, but it doesn't take away from it at all. Genesis is probably my least favorite villain of all time. In anything I have ever seen/played/read ever. I wouldn't say he's the worst of all of the villains I know; as bad as he is, there are worse, but he made it personal when he ruined Crisis Core.

My favorite in the entire Final Fantasy series is a tough pick. There's the scene in FFX between the battle against the giant flea and the one before it (the battle themes for both are probably my favorite in the series) and the freaky Time Kompression scene in FFVIII featuring lots of Rinoa and Faceless Squall.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v726/jesse053/Lolpunch.gif

[Wolf Kanno]

I forgot to mention this. This is probably my favorite cutscene(s) in the series. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GemT2kn1TC0)

[Skyblade]

I forgot to mention this. This is probably my favorite cutscene(s) in the series. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GemT2kn1TC0)

Awesome scenes there. Especially when Alexander first begins charging for the counterattack, and Bahamut is suddenly like "Oh, dang, this is going to hurt. Have to get out of here".

Don't pick on a fortress that can destroy you with a single attack, Bahamut. :)

Still my favorite incarnation of Alexander.

[Loony BoB]

I can't view YouTube so I don't know what that is, but the reply reminded me of other cutscenes and I have to say that in FFXIII the return to Cocoon scene was awesome.

[Goldenboko]

It also suffered from "NO PROBLEM I NEED TO BE AROUND LATER ON" syndrome when Sephiroth game smacked up by fire spells, and no damage was done to him. I really hate that crap in movies/games/tv shows. When you get INCINERATED, I don't care how powerful you are, you don't come out flawless.

And yet even that can be done well. Because when the enemies constantly did Zero damage to Sephiroth in the flashback, that really slammed home just how powerful he was. However, it does work better with the game mechanics than it does with the cutscenes. See Wolf's post for more on that.

There is a definite difference between battle mechanics and cutscenes and they are mixing the two too much. When I see those zeroes pop up it leaves room for imagination. I imagine Cloud or Sephiroth or whoever was hit for a zero blocking the attack or dodging it because they are fighting an opponent who is not a comparable enemy. I don't imagine that he's so strong that he is merely immune to fire, it just doesn't make sense.

This scene in James Bond (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpTUAOYrSII&feature=related) captures a truly good fight scene. Not because of the intense speed or choreography, but because they are getting bloodied and tired. There is tension in this scene and I'm interested and on the edge of my seat out because it is a true fight with both parties at risk, Bond and his villain can easily be skewered. Two parties capable of being a punching bag to blows without any consequence makes me not care. Why does Sephiroth even bother to dodge? He could just take the fireballs off the face continue his way at his enemy? Why should I care if he narrowly dodged that last fireball? If it hit him he'd be fine anyway.

[Mercen-X]

It would be like trying to make Soul Calibur use realistic sword fighting, duels would end based on who landed a blow first and it doesn't make for a game.Bushido Blade


Despite the original game showing that Cloud's abilties are limited, certainly greater than a normal human being but seeing how SOLDIER 1st Class are normal enemies you can fight wave after wave of, I would say the Compilation went overboard trying to pander to fans into making them the most elite, most powerful super soldiers in the world who can beat Son Goku and Kenshiro with one arm tied behind their back, and that's just the 3rd class SOLDIERS.Did you ever take part in the Sora versus the World discussion?

(guns work in this world on other things like they would in the real world, Cloud is knows when not to bring a sword to a gun fight, he can't scale city walls by running really fast, and he has never shown the ability to hack a building in half) and that its knockoff compilations have changed the rules for no goddamn good reason besides "it looks kewl".

Cloud and Seph's abilities to hack buildings apart makes more sense as character ability growth in AC as it is a sequel but I admit those abilities are to be logically non-existent in the prequels. However, many of Zack's abilities in CC are used on that Memory thing, so I theorize that this is how Cloud remembers the events of CC despite the fact that he wasn't there through all of it.

[Haha_YouAint]

I think Genesis' English voice actor ruined it for him. His voice sounded so....weak...weasly? One of those.

Anyway I liked the Bahamut cutscene in Advent Children better. You got to see how Avalanche fights together as a whole.....until Cloud came.

[Shaibana]

I think Genesis' English voice actor ruined it for him. His voice sounded so....weak...weasly? One of those..
ya he sounds like, if u listen to him to long.. ur gonna fall asleep. what anoyes me more is that he Only talks in loveles-quotes

[silentenigma]

As silly as it is to argue about the nature of firearms, I would like to draw attention to the shells being ejected from both Barret's and Dyne's guns in their battle:

YouTube - ‪Final Fantasy VII Boss Rush #11 Dyne‬‏ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3c29Mbn7_I&t=178)

Those shells came from somewhere and would have needed to be replenished regularly, even if you never see it happen.
In the turn-based battle, the two can sustain heavy gunfire for the same reason that enemies can often sustain several direct blows from Cloud's sword.
The scene beforehand, in which Dyne shoots Barret several times beforehand as Barret covers his face.... was just poorly executed.

That's my two cents. And on the topic of the Crisis Core cutscene.....meh, It was decent.

[Silent Warrior]

You want awesome cutscenes? I always found the ones at the end of Mass Effect (1) to be pretty sweet (spaceships, purple nebula, explosions, COME ON! :D ), but see if you can dig out the intro for good old I-War and tell me THAT'S not a looker!

(Wing Commander 3's intro is also several kinds of awesome, just not in the technical/visual sense.)

[The Crystal]

I don't believe that Cloud and Sephiroth can cut down buildings, that Cloud can take a bullet to the head and only break his glasses, that Sephiroth can dissect the Mako Cannon effortlessly, that Zack can slice missiles out of the air, and that Zack can single handily defeat most of the Shin-Ra army, or that Sephy can sprout a black wing as a side effect of Jenova cells (despite Jenova never showing she had wings or traits of wings) and any other over the top BS they added in the Compilation as something that could theoretically happen in FFVII. Cloud is physically and more magically powerful than a human and Sephiroth is significantly more powerful than that? Sure, no problem, but when it escalates to destroying entire cities effortlessly, its now been taken over by the power of cheese.


in the game, he even needs help from a dolphin to get him up to the raffling so he can slowly climb his way up to Junon, whereas in AC, he can magically jump 20ft. in the air, hang there as if it was ground, and defy other laws of physics.

I agree with you that the Compilation made the characters' abilities too over-the-top, but they aren't completely ilogical.
For example, the original game is constantly showing/telling you how smurfing powerful Sephiroth is. There are tons of dialogues and scenes pointing to that. So having him suddenly cutting buildings in half is not so out-of-left-field to a character like him, who was allways supposed to be a beast in terms of power anyway.
However if you make Sephiroth like that, you logicaly have to do the same with AVALANCHE, the guys who defeated him.

And yes, I understand there are 'inconsistencies', like your Junon example, but you have to remember this happened at the begining of the story. It is so hard to believe they could have grow in power during their journey to save the world, inevitably reaching the level we see in AC/C?

I agree with you that the wings being connected to Jenova is ridiculous, but I don't see a problem with Sephiroth showing one, giving the fact he had many during the final battle of the original game.


Yes, the Compilation added a lot of nonsense and unecessary bull:bou::bou::bou::bou:, but in my opinion, they aren't as many as you think.


Please don't go around the swear filter! ~J♪

[dunk]

LOL, so ok you think the game makes the characters NOT look so super powered?

So when you walk up too one of the weapons and poke its toe with your sword because you can't jump 20ft in the air and can't cut through metal then let me know how that works out for you...

[dambaz]

i agree the genesis and sephiroth fight was quality sephiroth in my opinion is one of the best FF characters even though he executes aries :( sad but awe struck

[Sephiroth]

Well first off, I don't count anything in the Compilation as canon

But the "reality" of Final Fantasy VII does not depend on you. And it does count. I do understand your thoughts. Originally Zack was shot by some kind of back attack. But it would have been ridiculous to show this scene in Crisis Core since Zack is as strong as Cloud. So he just defeats an army and weakened of the battle the last few ShinRa soldiers - which represent those who were seen in the original flashback of Final Fantasy VII - kill him. And for a character who was the one Cloud thought to be a back attack death is not really great.


the Cloud who enters the Mako Reactor at the beginning is physically the same as the one that fights Sephy at the end in terms of capabilities, he doesn't gain the ability to take more hits or kill people faster.

Leveling and damage output has no bearing ever in a story, and I will never understand why people can't seem to understand why both need to be treated as different circumstances. I don't believe Ultima in IX does 9999 damage, I know it can seriously smurf my party up cause I did watch it level the surface of the planet and I can't fathom how anyone would survive that.

Actually not. It is true that game mechanics to not count. Only the scenes in battles do count as well because they show what the characters are able to do but Cloud and the others get stronger in battle through experience like all other humans do. Not to forget that Cloud has a sleeping superhuman power. He was planned with that and it is always unleashed when Sephiroth starts to be arrogant and makes him angry. With that power he always succeeds in defeating him - except when all the heroes fight together.

Sephiroth has so many abilities. If Square would let him use them all at once there would be no necessity in telling a story. You need to give the heroes a chance as well. It is the same with all stories with super villains who are way stronger than the heroes. Actually it is almost always that way in Final Fantasy.

But you have already admitted partly with that comment:



Even Kitase and the Ultimania makes it perfectly clear that Sephiroth is far greater than Cloud and anyone else for that matter, and that both defeats are caused by Sephiroth underestimating Cloud. Hell, chances are still possible that Zack is stronger than Cloud.

We will never be able to say if Zack is "stronger than Cloud". What do you mean with that? Zack's will is stronger than Cloud. Yes. But there normal fighting skills were made equal and since Cloud has copied Zack with Tifa's memories and replaced Zack's life with his own, it is not even a wonder, that he is that good.


it wasn't about basing the film in realism (like how some cells can make Kadaj into Sephiroth)

That's perfectly realistic. Sephiroth just needs some cells, if not only one to reunite himself - that's not clearly said. Sephiroth's reunion is mixed with the shapeshifting ability. The reunion he did in Advent Children was nothing else as shapeshifting JENOVA's headless body in the ShinRa headquarters and controlling it so he could do what he wanted and reunite JENOVA as well. But Sephiroth's reunion is way stronger than the original reunion of JENOVA. JENOVA needs its head as center. Sephiroth can activate the reunion just by willpower. Of course in Final Fantasy VII-1 he had JENOVA's head as well. But I am talking about his own reunion. And that is stronger than his own. He even thinks in the lifestream about just using the power of "his mother" to come back, et cetera and with the memories of the others, escpecially Cloud's, he can fully reunited and shapeshift back to his normal form.



I don't believe those are wings though, they are two masses of flesh and organs that happen to be justting out of her back, for all we know, its actually her fileted back muscles from Hojo and Gast experimenting on her. As for the Calamity from the Sky bit, that has more to do with the fact the game specifically states she came to VII's world via meteor as a transport. She's a calamity and she came from the sky via meteor, hence the name.

We never get to even see her true form, for all we know she doesn't have one since she shape shifts. I also don' see how shape-shifting as a Cetra to infiltrate them is going to work if she has "wings" jutting out of her back.

It was never clearly said that JENOVA really came on a meteor even though it is likely. The Cetra thought a meteor fell and when they arrived at the crater they found JENOVA who looked like a Cetra. It was not mentioned if there really were parts of a meteor. Even in Advent Children it was not clearly said by Sephiroth because he said "What I want, Cloud, is to sail the darkness of the cosmos with this planet as my vessel. Just as my mother did long ago." but it is not mentioned if he just means that he wants to travels through the cosmos like JENOVA or if he wants to travels through the cosmos on a destroyed planet like JENOVA. The line is not clear enough because both is possible.

And yet - YES, JENOVA likely travelled on a meteor. I just mention what the lines are.

And you did see JENOVA's true form. JENOVA Synthesis is JENOVA's true form. It is just not 100% perfect since Sephiroth, Cloud et cetera have JENOVA cells but the Ultimania itself says that this one is the one closest to her true form. And that is no wonder. With the reunion you shall fuse your cells to get back your normal form and JENOVA SYNTHESIS/COMPLETE/ABSOLUTE is meant to be that form: A giant tick-like alien with two tentacles and a female-looking body since it fits the story.

By the way - JENOVA's sealed cetra-like body was already mutated. It is no wonder and has not really to much to do with the experiments. JENOVA was fighting the ancients when they found out that it is no Cetra and of course the game itself should just show that it is a inhuman, alien-like being. And the things should definitely remind of wings. But not because it is the Calamity from the Sky. And Sephiroth's wing is not a normal wing like we all know. The original "one wing" also looks just like a mutation - but more wing-like as JENOVA's. But not even close as the normal angel wings he has. Of course because it should look special. By the way - the wing of Sephiroth was not just shown as a mutation because of JENOVA cells. It was thought (for Sephiroth, not for Genesis and Angeal) to represent that he is incomplete since he was interrupted during his metamorphosis. He would have been "complete" by absorbing the whole lifestream.

I do understand your thoughts. But it is, how it is.

[Jiro]

Even Kitase and the Ultimania makes it perfectly clear that Sephiroth is far greater than Cloud and anyone else for that matter, and that both defeats are caused by Sephiroth underestimating Cloud. Hell, chances are still possible that Zack is stronger than Cloud.

We will never be able to say if Zack is "stronger than Cloud". What do you mean with that? Zack's will is stronger than Cloud. Yes. But there normal fighting skills were made equal and since Cloud has copied Zack with Tifa's memories and replaced Zack's life with his own, it is not even a wonder, that he is that good.


Re: the bolded section - thinking you're somebody does not make you as talented as they are. I could get smashed in the head and think I'm Tiger Woods, but that won't make me pick up like a motherfucker any good at golf.

[Gamblet]

Now, the cutscene in FF IV where Tellah beats up Edward with his staff while yelling "YOU SPOONY BARD!" is more epic than those flashy animations. :D Just picture it in your head in 3D with those graphics and you'll get it.

[Hollycat]

Now, the cutscene in FF IV where Tellah beats up Edward with his staff while yelling "YOU SPOONY BARD!" is more epic than those flashy animations. :D Just picture it in your head in 3D with those graphics and you'll get it.
they could have made that the next avatar.

[Gamblet]

they could have made that the next avatar.

Indeed..

[Sephiroth]

Re: the bolded section - thinking you're somebody does not make you as talented as they are. I could get smashed in the head and think I'm Tiger Woods, but that won't make me pick up like a mothersmurfer any good at golf.

I know what you mean but it is not true in that case. Your abilities are part of your memories as well. I don't want to explain it here for real life because it is Final Fantasy and cannot be proven for Final Fantasy. And when Cloud copied Tifa's memories of Zack he could have easily copied "his skills with it". You forget that it is Final Fantasy. You cannot be like Tiger Woods by just thinking of it, but you can't also copy your friend's memories.

But this is not mentioned. That's why I did not say too much about it.

[Jiro]

I'll concede the point, but I still find it a hard stretch, even for FF.

[APolaris]

I haven't played this game, but I just watched the scene, and... honestly, nowhere near the best ever. Not even in the top 10 by Square. Yeah, graphically it's impressive. Yeah, it's "cool." But it has no emotion, the dialogue is cheesy and actually detracts from the scene by being there, and from what I know of the game itself (which is basically its whole plot), it doesn't sound like this scene develops the story at all. In short, it's mechanical. All style, no substance. Hell, I'd even describe several of the scenes from the original FF7 as better than this one simply because they develop its story/incite feelings in the viewer that this doesn't. Comparing this to, say, the death of Aeris is like comparing Dragonforce to Pink Floyd.

[Kenshin IV]

I haven't played this game, but I just watched the scene, and... honestly, nowhere near the best ever. Not even in the top 10 by Square. Yeah, graphically it's impressive. Yeah, it's "cool." But it has no emotion, the dialogue is cheesy and actually detracts from the scene by being there, and from what I know of the game itself (which is basically its whole plot), it doesn't sound like this scene develops the story at all. In short, it's mechanical. All style, no substance. Hell, I'd even describe several of the scenes from the original FF7 as better than this one simply because they develop its story/incite feelings in the viewer that this doesn't. Comparing this to, say, the death of Aeris is like comparing Dragonforce to Pink Floyd.

What he (or she!) said.

[Gamblet]

http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy/images/2/24/Jenova_Headless.jpg


I always wondered where the second nipple of JENOVA was hiding... on her left wing! :D

[Hambone]

Personally I think the best scene in Crisis Core is the ending. Everybody knows what's coming after playing FFVII, but it doesn't take away from it at all. Genesis is probably my least favorite villain of all time. In anything I have ever seen/played/read ever. I wouldn't say he's the worst of all of the villains I know; as bad as he is, there are worse, but he made it personal when he ruined Crisis Core.

My favorite in the entire Final Fantasy series is a tough pick. There's the scene in FFX between the battle against the giant flea and the one before it (the battle themes for both are probably my favorite in the series)...

I hate Genesis and Loveless. Fuck everything about that aspect of Crisis Core, in addition to the fact that not only can you not skip those cutscenes, but any other cutscene as well.

FFX had a giant flea? Wha?

[Shaibana]

Genisis could have been a Great character if only didnt only quote in loveless lines all - the - freaking - time

[Skyblade]

Genisis could have been a Great character if only didnt only quote in loveless lines all - the - freaking - time

No, no he couldn't have. When your villain is literally just a wannabe of a previous character, there is nothing salvagable there. Genesis had no personality, no depth, and was nothing save a very bad, very painful cash-in attempt.

Although I'll admit he's still better than Seymour.

[Shaibana]

i dnt know much previous characters ^^