Wada: Development has become weaker than expected...

[Wolf Kanno]

Article (http://www.gamingunion.net/news/wada-our-development-has-become-weaker-than-expected--5058.html)

So Wada recently admitted, during the forecast of what SE would make this year, that SE has fallen behind in development and has cited issues in communication between departments as a major problem. The situation is apparently so dire to Wada that SE may begin reformation of their development teams.

The question of this thread is twofold:

Doing you agree with Wada that SE has fallen behind?

If Squenix does some internal house cleaning, what do you hope to see from SE after they rework their kinks out?

[VeloZer0]

To try and recover, Square Enix will delve further into social networking games and apps for cell phones.
........

[Flying Arrow]

Doing you agree with Wada that SE has fallen behind?



Yes. They've made one good console game in more than a decade. I get the impression, however, that his definition of "falling behind" is somewhat different than mine.


If Squenix does some internal house cleaning, what do you hope to see from SE after they rework their kinks out?To make more than one legitimately good game between now and 2020. Only two more to go, guys!

But seriously, SE have been almost nothing but awful since they came into existence. I wish the old magic could come back, but I'm positive they've just lost too much talent and vision from back then.



To try and recover, Square Enix will delve further into social networking games and apps for cell phones. ........

Yoichi, you're killin' me.

[Jiro]

To be honest, I want them to drop the Final Fantasy name and just concentrate on making a game without any of the damn expectations. If XIII didn't have FF attached to it then people would have hated it less. It might not have been as "popular" but arguably the popularity wasn't good anyway.

So far all they're doing is remakes and taking years to develop random ass spin off games and :bou::bou::bou::bou:. Just put together a team and say "go make a great game" and let them do it. Everyone else can work on apps and :bou::bou::bou::bou:.

[Del Murder]

I feel like we've had many versions of this thread.

Yes, I think SE has fallen behind. I don't think it's due to a lack of vision, but it's more like they are looking in the wrong direction. They need to go back to what got them to where they are instead of trying to be 'cutting edge' and compete with modern action games. And by that I don't mean just remake all the old good games over and over.

[Slothy]

In terms of technology, Square is years behind. Give them five years and they bring us the engine that powered FFXIII which was utterly underwhelming to me. Granted part of the problem was the terrible art style and half assed textures, but it was pretty light on graphical effects that are pretty standard these days.

Meanwhile companies like Epic and id completely obliterate everything coming out of Japan as far as technology is concerned. Mind you I think that trying to make an engine in house for next-gen titles is quickly becoming too expensive to be worth it. Sadly, Square's one attempt at using a licensed engine was a failure as well, making me wonder how much of it had to do with the engine or their not knowing how to modify it.

As far as actual creativity in their games, they really don't have anyone aside from Nomura anymore willing to take charge and at least have some grand vision of where to take a title. Many of their big names who have been driving forces behind a lot of their best titles are gone, and the end result is that you get games that greatly suffered from a lack of strong direction and a cohesive idea for the development teams to get behind. This is very obvious in FFXIII even ignoring the fact that they admitted as much, and from what little I know of FFXIV it seems like it suffered from similar issues as well.

This isn't to say that other developers don't suffer from similar problems, but the better developers out there these days don't have these problems, and it shows.

[Roogle]

It is unsurprising that an announcement like this comes from the executives of Square Enix. Final Fantasy XIV was associated with a profitable forecast for the company, and its lack of popularity and subscription revenue has contributed greatly to its decline. I hope that they find some new talent soon. I feel that their current directors have contributed all that they can right now.

[Loony BoB]

I do wonder sometimes why JRPGs are restricted to the Japanese (and yes, I know the J stands for Japanese, but we all know it's referring to a style, not a country). Have any JRPG-style games been made exclusively by English speaking people? Basically I'm just wondering who their main competition is at the moment when it comes to the JRPG genre. I can't think of any off the top of my head.

I wouldn't say they have only made one good game in a decade. There are a number of games from SE that I have found enjoyable and have also been a commercial success. The problem is that even that number is not enough, and that until very recently they have been content to live in a bubble when it comes to development. They still are largely in that bubble, but hopefully over time they will learn to be far more open than they have been in the past. The more open they are and they more accepting they are of feedback, the earlier they can get feedback and in turn the earlier they can avoid having to completely rework a game (as was the case with FFXIV).

I actually quite like the unique vision that they have for games and how different they like to do things. The problem they have is being sometimes too different, taking the focus off what the gamers are wanting from the game they are intending on buying - in most cases for SE, this is a JRPG. Also, they can focus on the "different thing" so much that they drop the ball on more standard things, such as game stability (for FFXIV) and creativity (linearity, FFXIII).

[Roogle]

I do wonder sometimes why JRPGs are restricted to the Japanese (and yes, I know the J stands for Japanese, but we all know it's referring to a style, not a country). Have any JRPG-style games been made exclusively by English speaking people? Basically I'm just wondering who their main competition is at the moment when it comes to the JRPG genre. I can't think of any off the top of my head.

There was a Lord of the Rings games several years ago produced by an English speaking company that was meant to look and feel like Final Fantasy X, I think, but I couldn't stand it was for what it was. I never finished the game. I think there might be other similar titles that use the Japanese role-playing game formula, but I can't think of any other specific examples, either.

[Hollycat]

the last good thing se made was CC and XII

those were in 2006.
they need a revamp

[Jiro]

There was a Lord of the Rings games several years ago produced by an English speaking company that was meant to look and feel like Final Fantasy X, I think, but I couldn't stand it was for what it was. I never finished the game. I think there might be other similar titles that use the Japanese role-playing game formula, but I can't think of any other specific examples, either.

Lord of the Rings: The Third Age. I enjoyed it, actually.

[Loony BoB]

In that case, I wouldn't be surprised if it is the lack of direct competition that is causing SE to stagnate when it comes to standard JRPG games.

[I Don't Need A Name]

Yeah, I really enjoyed The Third Age. And as much as I enjoy a good rant about SE, I felt that this year has been a pretty good year for them. PSP wise at least, the release of The Third Birthday, Dissidia 012, Tactics Ogre and FFIV Complete have all been a credit to them. 4 very solid games which are very worth the money.

[VeloZer0]

I wouldn't say stagnation is SE's problem, it's quality. FF12 & FF13 were clearly attempts at innovation, and even though I didn't really appreciate the finished product I can't exactly say they aren't trying.

SE knows very well that they have to change, adapt and shake things up, but they are just stumbling around in the dark as to how to do it.

[Roogle]

Their development time seems to have increased dramatically over the years. What was the amount of time between the releases of Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy VIII? It might be the case that games take longer to make now, in which case they might need to think about consumer expectations and if there is any possible way to deliver what fans have come to expect. It might be time to reassess the entire series, really.

[Loony BoB]

From what I understand, game engines take longer to create than they did before. Previously, each FF game had it's own engine. Would the advent of HD gaming be causing longer time working on engines (and hence their recent change of direction with regards to engines, using Crystal Tools for multiple games)? Now that they have their engine, they are certainly putting them out faster once more.

[Wolf Kanno]

Part of it is lack of competition cause Enix was Squares biggest competitor and other franchises either retired, crashed and burned, or are basically something very Japanese.

Other issues are simply the fact they don't have a strong core of talented artistic visionaries and from what interviews with Takashi Tokita (One of the main contributors to FFIII and IV) it sounds like SE has become very corporate (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6351/years_after_the_final_fantasy_iv_.php) and is not a the kind of place where these teams can build cohesive visions of their games (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/30640/Exclusive_Behind_The_Scenes_of_Square_Enixs_Final_Fantasy_XIII.php). I feel SE has both some leadership issues but more distressing, its fallen into issues of just communicating with each of the departments. The right hand doesn't seem to know what the left hand is up to.

I feel SE's other issue nowadays is that I feel that Squenix truly has changed what FF's reputation is among the industry. It really doesn't hold the weight it use to.

This was an amusing article I read (http://kotaku.com/5803573/a-planet-without-square+enix), simply an opinion piece, and I advise people to read it simply as satire, but within the author's crazy accusations and baseless speculations, I do feel they hit on some truths of SE's problems.

[Bolivar]

Square Enix never fell behind.

Gaming did.

:)

Seriously, I don't blame their developers for falling behind the times, I just feel like the genre of JRPG has hit a brick wall and no one has any clue on where to take it now. Seriously, how many good console RPGs have you played this generation? Like really good ones, not ones where the devs are testing the next gen waters with a new concept that either hits or misses. Valkyria Chronicles and Demon's Souls are two of my favorite PS3 games, but they were really just new ideas that happened to come together well in the end rather than not. Plenty others have failed. This is why we're seeing all the big RPG developers retreating to handhelds (or the Wii) so they can keep working with familiar technology where they can work within some kind of known boundaries of what they can do. Like I said in another thread, I don't think your typical turn based or strategy RPG where all the characters stand around waiting for orders would cut it anymore.

As far as what I'd like to see in a restructuring, take off all team members from Final Fantasy. No one makes Final Fantasy. Milk social/mobile games and Eidos franchises like Tomb Raider, Deus Ex, an Legacy of Kain while you're doing this. Let Hiroshi Minagawa make a team out of people he selects. Demote Kitase from Producer to Director and let him pick a team of who he wants. Call Matsuno's attorneys to arrange a meeting and possible negotiation of a new contract. Tell Mistwalker you want to publish their next game. Have all of these people make a new IP on PS3/360 (preferrably PS3 :) ). Make sure these people are working with people they chose so there's no "communication between creative leads and programmers" crap they talk about in that article. Once all these new IPs are done testing the waters, exploring new ideas for JRPGs, then you have enough data to know how to make a next generation Final Fantasy. Sequelize the games that were really good. Move members of the team whose games weren't so good around to help out on the things they did right. Hopefully this will all be done by the time you can't milk those Eidos franchises anymore, then we have a strong Square Enix poised to reclaim its dominance of the video game market.

It just seems to me like before every FF they made a game that tested out the engine and worked out some ideas. Like Parasite Eve looked a lot like FFVIII and even had similar sound effects for finding items I believe. The Bouncer came out before X with a similar style. And as in the other thread, I hold on to my belief that FFVII was large a product of experience gained after working on Chrono Trigger! Square needs to do this again, instead of gathering data from other Final Fantasies in order to make the next Final Fantasy. You need fresher ideas and I hope this would be a way to do it.

Until then, I'll be having a blast playing Dragon Quest V on DS and Tactics Ogre on PSP (SE never fell behind).

[Yar]

Look. You put out crappy products, you are going to fail. Your name and brand can only take you too far. If they would stop being idiots and just do what made them a big success in the first place there would be no problem right now.

It's not rocket science. The Final Fantasy series has sucked for about a decade. That's one of their flagship franchises.

[Del Murder]

FF hasn't sucked for a decade, unless you were being subjective. FFXI was a highly successful MMO and has made them a lot of money and still is doing so to this day. FFX-2, though ridiculed for its silly themes, had pretty good sales and had some great elements. Even XII and XIII, who many didn't like for different reasons, sold pretty well. Only FFXIV has bombed so far due to poor management. The problems SE is having seem to be more in-house problems than issues with game quality, though of course that does come into play.

I don't think their products are crappy. The KH series still puts out great games like BBS. I've just been playing Tactics Ogre and it is a superb remake. They still make good games and I still buy them. What they are lacking is a connection with their fanbase and the confidence of their customers.

[VeloZer0]

Do we actually know that FF13 made money? I mean it sold fairly well, but it took forever to make. Which means it had a huge development cost. I don't actually know one way or the other, but it seems to me a possibility it wasn't especially successful financially when the development costs were factored in.

And Justy's point was that FF titles have been selling based on the strength of the brand, not on the strength of the product. So saying they have sold well doesn't really affect the assertion that the games have all sucked.

Though I usually say the same thing I will add that when I consider them to have all sucked I am judging them against the series as a whole. I will admit that when measured against the gaming market in general they are mediocre.

[Loony BoB]

FFXIII is something like the 9th best selling PS3 game of all time. Pretty sure it would have turned some kind of profit. For perspective, it allegedly has out-sold GTA IV on PS3 and I think out-sold LittleBigPlanet, too.

[Slothy]

Do we actually know that FF13 made money? I mean it sold fairly well, but it took forever to make. Which means it had a huge development cost. I don't actually know one way or the other, but it seems to me a possibility it wasn't especially successful financially when the development costs were factored in.

It's kind of tough to know if it made money since I'm having trouble finding any info on what the budget was. More complicated is the fact that I'm not sure what amount Square gets on each sale. I've seen breakdowns before but am having trouble finding one right now.

That said, I've seen numbers putting development of FFXII at around $40-50 million. Considering FFXIII was in development for a similar amount of time and the average next gen title (as in one that takes two years instead of five to make) is costing around $30 million, I don't think it's unheard of that the budget for FFXIII was at least $60-70 million. Probably a lot higher when you factor in marketing costs and whatnot.

According to the FF Wiki it sold about 6 million copies as of February. Assuming they make maybe $20 off of every $60 game sale, that would work out to $120 million or so. Obviously more if they make a bigger chunk of the revenue, which is possible since they're both the developer and the publisher I suppose. But I think that my estimate of the budget is more than a little generous given the cost to make FFXII. Hell, MGS4 was in development for less time and cost $60 million to develop so it's entirely possible that FFXIII could have gotten above $80 million. And this also wouldn't account for any price drops through the year since its release.

So while it made money, they'd have made substantially more if they had been able to get it out in half the time. Which is essentially the problem with their business model right now. Had it not been for FFXIII having the FF name attached to it, I think they would have been lucky to break even. You just can't spend 5+ years on a title unless it's a sure thing that it will sell multiple millions. And even then it's a risky proposition, particularly now with the lukewarm reception that FFXIII got and the troubles FFXIV has had to deal with.

[Loony BoB]

It should be noted that when talking about the budget for FFXIII, it's difficult to say how much of that was spent on Crystal Tools which is also going to be used by at least three other games. So they may have spent a large portion of their time on Crystal Tools and figuring it out, but if you share that time amongst the other games as well then obviously the cost goes down.

[Wolf Kanno]

Seriously, I don't blame their developers for falling behind the times, I just feel like the genre of JRPG has hit a brick wall and no one has any clue on where to take it now. Seriously, how many good console RPGs have you played this generation? Like really good ones, not ones where the devs are testing the next gen waters with a new concept that either hits or misses. Valkyria Chronicles and Demon's Souls are two of my favorite PS3 games, but they were really just new ideas that happened to come together well in the end rather than not. Plenty others have failed. This is why we're seeing all the big RPG developers retreating to handhelds (or the Wii) so they can keep working with familiar technology where they can work within some kind of known boundaries of what they can do.

I partly agree here, no one has really stepped up and made a definitive JRPG unless you count the amount of name dropping Lost Odyssey gets on the 360 (please Sakaguchi, get over yourself and work with Sony to port this game), but where I disagree is with the retreat to handhelds being one simply of knowing the tech, I only feel that is part of the issue. I still believe the handhelds do better cause they don't suffer the same level of expectation as the console releases do. Partly cause gamers still don't really think of handhelds as real gaming systems even though they have been wiping the floor with this generation of consoles but handhelds don't get the same level of feedback. Lower development cost combined with less oversight from marketing and corporate components of the companies keep these games from becoming generic sludge like other games.

Listening to Takashi Tokita's interview concerning the development of FFIV remakes, The After Years, and FFLegends, it sounds like SE's development model has reached a point where strong creativity is generally squandered due to poor communication and planning. Considering FFXII was hounded by executive meddling and FFXIII lacked a shared vision among the team, it sounds like SE has to remake the model for building next gen console games cause its too large and unfocused. The real disturbing part of all is that its not like XII and XIII didn't have developers who are inexperienced.

I get the impression that the handhelds have an advantage cause the teams are actually smaller, and they tend to have a strong focus thanks to good leadership.


Like I said in another thread, I don't think your typical turn based or strategy RPG where all the characters stand around waiting for orders would cut it anymore.

I have to seriously disagree here, cause I don't think there is any real basis for this that fans couldn't accept a traditional RPG battle system down to to its graphical components. Citing Lost Odyssey as a game that has slowly gained a weird reputation as the "last great JRPG on console" I don't think people would honestly care. I mean it was silly for decades and technically game developers have had the technology to move away from it since the 16-bit era but it persisted even to this generation in some titles. I personally don't think I would care. If VII was remade, I would be more pissed if they ditched the traditional battle system for something like XIII's or something new cause it was the battle system I liked.

I feel that only the game developers and jaded game journalist really feel that a traditional turn base system wouldn't work this generation on a major console, and yet while they toil to create the next model of turn base or something new to replace it, games like the DQ series and MegaTen are racking up sales on the handheld market despite using old and antiquated styles of "your guy on this side, and my guy on this side, lets trade blows." combat visuals. Would it look silly on a high def console game at 1080pi? Most likely. Would people care? A few, but these are people who need to realize that sometimes the gameplay needs to trump the visual storytelling.

One of my main beefs with action rpg systems (like Tales series and Star Ocean specifically) and XII/XIII's combat systems is that combat has become so fast and furious, I can't even really enjoy it cause I'm too focused on one aspect to appreciate the rest of the game. In titles like Tales and SO, I'm too focused on what the guy I'm controlling is doing that I never actually get to watch the cool spells or aerial acrobatics of my other characters, I might as well be playing a solo adventure at that point. For XII and XIII, more XIII but XII is definitely not innocent either, combat is going so fast that I spent most of my time watching my parties health bars or the Chain Gauge, or the top screen to read if an enemy is preparing a powerful attack that I'm not even watching the combat anymore. I couldn't even describe half the magic effects or tell the difference when one character is attacking over another.

Having the old school design lets the player actually appreciate the special attacks, the spell effects, or even the scenery. A developer can go back to using the battle camera to create the sense of urgency in combat. I argue its a better system for creating a cinematic experience over having speed that requires A.I. control and seamless battle modes you can't appreciate cause your spending more time watching gauges and health bars located in the corner of the screen. I'm not saying XII and XIII are terrible systems, but I don't feel they created anything that is more enduring than what had come before.


It just seems to me like before every FF they made a game that tested out the engine and worked out some ideas. Like Parasite Eve looked a lot like FFVIII and even had similar sound effects for finding items I believe. The Bouncer came out before X with a similar style. And as in the other thread, I hold on to my belief that FFVII was large a product of experience gained after working on Chrono Trigger! Square needs to do this again, instead of gathering data from other Final Fantasies in order to make the next Final Fantasy. You need fresher ideas and I hope this would be a way to do it.

I can agree with this. Though Versus XIII seems to be following this as the game is closer to the KH system than FF titles.


Until then, I'll be having a blast playing Dragon Quest V on DS and Tactics Ogre on PSP (SE never fell behind).

They never fell behind cause they keep remaking games that were big hits 15 years ago? :p I had to, it was just an easy set-up from your game choices. ;)



And Justy's point was that FF titles have been selling based on the strength of the brand, not on the strength of the product. So saying they have sold well doesn't really affect the assertion that the games have all sucked.


I'm with Justy here, comparing SE's game quality to some of the stuff from the 16 bit/32 bit era, I feel the gems are few and far between. Even new franchises like KH and Dissidia are mostly successful due to the very novelty of the concept itself. XII and XIII are financial successes but browsing through most gaming forums will show that the fanbases are largely divided on their quality and most "What SE needs to do to get back on their feet" editorials tend to use these two games as examples of everything that is wrong with FF.

Sales don't denote quality, there have been some major turds that got excellent sales (movie tie-in-games anyone? or how about 50cents games?) that have sold millions of copies despite most journalist and most gamers coming back and saying they were awful. A powerful brand name is all you need to get the high numbers. A much better example would be seeing what the high turn over rate of a game is. XIII was a game that had a steady supply of used copies in most game stores I frequent within a week of its release.

[NeoCracker]

I'll just comment a bit more on competition, since WK basically covered allother points I can make.

We are seeing the steady rise of two compainies in the american Market, Atlus and NIS. Both of which have a heavy focus on JRPG games and elements.

The Persona games gained a big fan base, Demon Souls did surprisingly well, as did 3D Dot Game Heroes (THough not really much of an RPG. :p)

NIS quite quickly gained a very solid fan base with Disgaea, and haven't really lost out. THey also release various games with quite the niche followings, such as the Atelier Games and Mana Khemia.

No way Square has just let this go un noticed, as I recall NIS and Atlus being more popular in Japan, so I can't see lack of competition being a problem.

Of course, I also predict that by the end of this console Generation, Atlus will have notable expanded it's American market, expecially with a lot of the Hype Catherine is getting. I hope NIS starts gaining more and more popularity as well.

OF course we could also get into Aksys Games stepping into the JRPG market with Agarest War, which got a lot of good critic and customer reviews, as well as a pre-qual slated for next month.

This in consideration, for me personally Square is lagging behind. Their games just don't compete quality wise with Agarest, Persona, Devil Survivor, Disgaea 3, or even PS2's Persona games.

Turn based RPG's will go no where any time soon.

[Loony BoB]

I just checked out both Disgaea and Demon Souls and wouldn't say they are competing with FFXIII-scale JRPG games. Demon Souls looks like a WRPG - you create the character, there is only one character you control (who makes up your entire party, it seems) and that character does not really have an in-depth storyline or anything. I would say Demon Souls is competing with Oblivion, not Final Fantasy. Disgaea (which is a pie SE has it's finger in already) is definitely a JRPG but is nothing people would directly compare with FFXII, FFXIII etc.

I imagine The Last Story will be the direct competition that FF receives. Unfortunately, it's only on the Wii. :(

[NeoCracker]

Demon souls was more to show one of their big break throughs here then to show a game currently in direct competition with FF.

Persona is the main one from Atlus.

And I think SRPG's are compared with nomal RPG's often enough they count. :p