The New Grind

[Skyblade]

I was thinking about things I hated about the recent FF games that Squenix has tossed out, and something struck me I hadn't noticed before.

Since when do we grind for items?

Going back to all the previous FF games, I can't remember grinding for equipment. Abilities, yes, but not equipment. Stronger weapons either came from stores, chests, or rewards for quests/bosses. Yet, lately, getting new equipment has become a grind that far surpasses the standard ability grind. The system was somewhat experimented with starting in X, with the grind for customization and ultimate weapons, but it wasn't until after their MMO, FFXI, that Squenix seemed to clue on to the idead that pointless grinds for equipment = wonderful. And they have put it in every game since. FFXII featured the convoluted Bazaar system, FFXIII had that awful upgrade system, Dissidia had the huge shop... Heck, KH 358/2 Days featured a ton of this too.

I don't mind the ability grind. I generally enjoy it, and feel that the ability grinds tend to be well balanced to gameplay. But these new item grinds are just insane. First, they are almost completely superfluous, as you can beat the game without them quite easily (in fact, I beat one of XIII's superbosses, Vercingetorix, without upgrading a single piece of equipment), and second, they go on forever. By the time you max the Liscence Board in XII or the Crystarium in XIII, you will be barely scratching the grind for items.

Why has Square taken this route, and what needs to be done to convince them to go back to the way things were?

[VeloZer0]

I blame it solely on people who whine that a game isn't long enough. I give SE a lot of crap for making poor game design decisions, but I can't see any way this isn't in direct response to people who feel ripped of if it takes less than 100 hours to get everything in the game done.

I don't think of them as part of the game, I think of them as there to keep people busy.

[Fynn]

It happened earlier, though. Remember FFIV? Pink tails? Yeah.

[ShinGundam]

Why has Square taken this route, and what needs to be done to convince them to go back to the way things were?

I think that was more of MMO and Monster Hunter influence on modern RPGs,maybe, more than anything else. I can't play a Japanese portable game without some kind of grinding for items involved.

[Wolf Kanno]

A good fifth of the equipment in FFIV is from enemy drops that are incredibly rare, not to to mention summons. FFIII had the Onion Gear and FFV itself required hunting around for rare game that carried good items like Dragons Beard and the Matsukomo sword (actually most of IV and V's best weapons are either rare steals, rare drops, or guarded by something powerful and optional). Even VI and VII had some rare items that required farming items to steal from like Economizers and Sources.

VIII had specific rare items that could only be stolen by adjusting levels (Item B is carried when enemy is between level 50 and 70 for example) and what not with some monsters and that's not even mentioning trying to acquire the ultimate weapons. FFX required farming and using Bribe on Monster Arena creatures to actually acquire some of the items needed to craft top tier equipment or max out Aeon stats. I'm not even going to start on Tactics A2's system which is basically XII's system without the benefit of the chain system or Monographs.

Really, grinding for items and gear has been a part of the series since almost the beginning. FF just happens to be much much kinder to you than some other people like... Breath of Fire or Dragon Quest. The Goo King Sword is a bitch and a half to get in these games cause its a rare drop/steal from an enemy who usually runs in the first round and who is incredibly powerful if it decided to stay and fight.

While I certainly don't care for crafting great ultimate weapons in XII and I find that grinding for good accessories and weapons in XIII is certainly a chore, I blame it more on the game systems themselves, XII had a bizarre crafting system with the bazaar (and even then only a few weapons can only be obtained through this system, most others are found in the games tedious treasure chests or from Mark Hunts) and XIII was trying to be different and its system is more of an issue cause it smurfed up the monetary system which is more important for building weapons than grinding for parts.

Beyond that, I don't mind a little grinding, I think it just gets silly when the game uses a "recipe" system that requires me to obtain a half a dozen rare ingredients to build one thing. It wasn't fun in VIII back in the day, and XII and XIII have certainly shown its not fun to do still. Course, doing tedious and completely unrelated mini-games is not cool either.

[I Don't Need A Name]

FFI and II featured it too. Not only was an experience grind standard to get through it, but if you wanted good equipment/magic, you were grinding for a long time to raise the funds to get it. Elfenhiem in FFI?

[Loony BoB]

One way or another, you will always grind in a game. Perhaps it's more noticeable these days because it's more noticeable - particularly if you were trying to get Platinum on FFXIII. The last trophy you get will almost certainly be for grindfesting towards having every weapon.

[Slothy]

Skinner Box (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2487-The-Skinner-Box)

Grinding is basically an underhanded way to try and get you addicted when implemented to the degree you'll find in MMO's or some of the later FF's where grinding is more and more prevalent and obvious.

That said, I beat every FF game ever made without resorting to item grinding and generally refuse to participate in such exercises simply because I feel it's a cheap and easy way to try and addict people without having to spend the time actually designing gameplay that is inherently enjoyable.

This is also the reason I don't play pretty much every game Zynga has ever made.

[Del Murder]

The difference between FFIV and FFX and games like FFXI and FFXIII is that you can still upgrade your equipment to 'endgame' levels without having to grind. The dropped equipment in FFIV is elite stuff that I see more as a bonus if you happen to come across it, not something necessary to beef up your characters. Anyone who grinds for this stuff is just a completionist and would never complain about FFXIII's system anyway (seriously, if you grind for the worthless Bomb summon you cannot participate in this debate).

In FFIV you can still get 'ultimate' gear via boss battles in the final dungeon. In FFX you can still get 'ultimate' weapons via treasure chests and quests. In FFXI you can only get the good stuff by fighting NMs until you get the drop. In recent times drop rates were improved but this wasn't the case in the beginning. In FFXIII you can only get top tier weapons and accessories by upgrading, which involves grinding for items and gil. Due to the lack of other options, this makes it a focus of endgame.

I would like to see a return to the days where each character had some 'ultimate' weapon that you acquire via exploration or questing. You can still include the super-elite equipment for those who have to get everything without detracting from the game. FFX did this pretty well with their upgrade system. I was very disappointed that you only acquired base weapons from chests in FFXIII.

[Skyblade]

I think Del Murder explained my point fairly well. There is a clear difference between the grind rates of the earlier games and the newer ones, and that difference is getting worse. In FFXIII, you can't get any more powerful weapons at all without engaging in the grind-fest.

Yes, there have usually been some huge, ultra-powerful gear only availible via rare drops in the games. But it has never been the basis of the entire equipment system.

And thanks for the link, Vivi22. I do like Extra Credit's explanations, and I think they are right on with that idea. Except that some games fail to make even that methodology engaging.

[Jessweeee♪]

I never had to grind for stuff in FFXIII, but then again I only made one Ultima Weapon, all the other stuff I used was in the second tier.

[Mercen-X]

Skinner Box (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2487-The-Skinner-Box)

Grinding is basically an underhanded way to try and get you addicted when implemented to the degree you'll find in MMO's or some of the later FF's where grinding is more and more prevalent and obvious.

That said, I beat every FF game ever made without resorting to item grinding and generally refuse to participate in such exercises simply because I feel it's a cheap and easy way to try and addict people without having to spend the time actually designing gameplay that is inherently enjoyable.

This is also the reason I don't play pretty much every game Zynga has ever made.

Back when I first played through FF7, I barely bothered looking for anything. Now I feel like I've got a sickness... why am I running back and forth between zones in XII looking for a rare monster or Entite just so I can Steal from it and zone out again when I don't get the specific item that I'm looking for... why? Because I'm trying to build an Ultima, an Apocalypse? A weapon that I formed an attachment to early in my Final Fantasy gaming... which I probably really don't even need. I never bothered playing through IX a second time to get the Excalibur II. That's so much of a waste of time, it insults my will to live. But I waste so much time on sidequests that aren't even real sidequests. What have I become?

[LikeaLion]

Back when I first played through FF7, I barely bothered looking for anything. Now I feel like I've got a sickness...

I would rather have rare weapons/equipment and items be a reward for deep exploration. Like finding hidden treasures. Or, challenging quests that have nice rewards.

Ultra low % rare drops after battle are there for the hardcore gamers. Just like how certain games make the success rate for stealing very low.

Making a myriad of items for alchemy, synthesis, or crafting is also there for completionists. There's actually quite a few people who are compelled to try and get 100% in a game. Not just the platinum. For example: the in-game battle trophies of the Star Ocean series. Some of those may seem unreasonable. Yet, there are always some players that complete them.

Just look at the Palace of the Dead for Tactics Ogre. It compels hardcore TO players to go through all 115 floors. At least, TO features the Chariot system. But, even with that many people still complain about trying to get certain stuff. Glass Pumpkins are just one example.

Yet, many of those same complainers still complete it! :cool: Is that OCD at it's worst or at it's best? :D

I like the way FFT handled rare equipment. It also made the optional places like Nelvaska Temple and Deep Dungeon (Midlight's Deep) well worth visiting and very fun! You could even setup weapons catching characters on a certain level of the Deep Dungeon.

You'll also see even more DLC. Like there isn't enough of that already. :p

[Mo-Nercy]

It's definitely more annoying now than it used to be. Tournesol in FFXII was a massive pain in the arse. I don't know why I felt so strongly about getting it at the time. In my most recent replay of VIII, finding all the Star Fragments I needed for Selphie and Irvine's weapons took 45 minutes. That's an acceptable amount of time. Tournesol, on the other hand, took around a month of playing a few hours every week. =\

[Elpizo]

It's definitely more annoying now than it used to be. Tournesol in FFXII was a massive pain in the arse. I don't know why I felt so strongly about getting it at the time. In my most recent replay of VIII, finding all the Star Fragments I needed for Selphie and Irvine's weapons took 45 minutes. That's an acceptable amount of time. Tournesol, on the other hand, took around a month of playing a few hours every week. =\

For some weird reason I enjoyed doing the Tournesol. Might be because I got it in three days... Felt like I had accomplished something. XD

[Caelheim]

It depends on how you look at the situation, I suppose. I've always been a fan of sidequests, but I do agree that some of them would be a lot more enjoyable if they did not revolve around grinding. I much prefer having to enter an optional dungeon, take down a difficult boss or play a few mini-games instead of killing the same enemies over and over in the hopes of getting something with a 1% drop chance.