If games can be art, then which ones are?

[Wolf Kanno]

What it says on the label. Stolen from Ken's thread...

Basically choose 10 games you feel are art and preferably give a short statement of why these are art and others are not of its genre or peers.

[McLovin']

Shadow of the Colossus. - Pretty.
Uncharted 2 - An awesome action packed interactive movie.
Fallout 3/New Vegas. - Unbelievable direction and creativity.
Chrono Trigger/Cross - Very intriguing worlds and storylines.
Final Fantasy 8 and 9 - The craziness of 8 makes it so cool. Some creative places like the Gardens or Esthar. 9 had the best atmosphere by far, though.

[Mirage]

Either all are, or none are. It'll just be varying subjective opinions on how "good" art it is.

Just like even the crappiest movie ever made is still really art. Just not very good art (which again is subjective. Maybe the director thinks it's the most wonderful movie ever).

[nik0tine]

I can't think of ten but Chrono Trigger is definitely a work of art in my mind. Every element in that game synthesizes so perfectly. The way the colors of the sprites compliment the music is about the most organic thing I've ever seen in any video game.

Xenogears may qualify, too, although for different reasons. It was epic in length and it's focus on story is unrivaled. I've yet to see another RPG that put as much effort into telling a story. Also, the soundtrack is far and away the best I've heard in a video game.

Portal. I haven't played the second installment (and likely never will as I have no faith in valves ability to make a sequel) but if perfection is something to strive for in art, and I say it is, then portal definitely deserves mention. I can't think of a single flaw in that game. It was a bit short but that is part of what makes it a shining example of perfection in a video game. The saying "Perfection is not achieved when there is nothing left to add but when there is nothing left to take away" applies here. In my mind, you can't add or subtract anything from the original portal without decreasing it's overall quality.

Half-Life and Doom may qualify as well. Both of those games had atmosphere like nobody's business.

I've heard Deus Ex qualifies, but I've not played it yet.

Minecraft - I've already talked about Minecraft in the other thread.

[Fynn]

Now this is a very tricky question... Like I said in the other thread, it's hard to actually pinpoint what art is... But if I were to choose some games based on my subjective opinion, I'd go with something like this:
Final Fantasy XII - basically, I like how Yoshida's concept art is more like full-blown paintings and the graphics in this game do their best to imitate the movements of the paint brush presented in the artwork.

I'll list the music of FFXIII, even though I have not played the game yet, but Masashi Hamauzu remains one of my favorite composers. I think his creative mind goes way beyond simple video game music, making something purely artistic instead. The way he experiments with different instrumentations and harmonies is awe-inspiring.

Xenogears is a strang ecase. It's very post-modern, blending together elements of high and low culture. Low culture being anime, and high one being religion and philosophy. The game has plenty of psychological depth and is definitely made by a person with a vision of sorts.

Kingdom Hearts. The whole series seems like a very elaborate metaphor on something Nomura wants to express. I'm not quite positive on what that is, since the current story arc is not finished yet. But it still deals with some nice metaphysical themes, albeit lighter than the ones in Xenogears, and I can't help but notice parallels with "The Little Prince".

Planescape: Torment. Very realistic characters. Though I do not believe art should imitate reality, again, I think it takes an unusual mind to create a game like this. Nice use of the grotesque, naturalism, and sometimes even turpism, I believe. Somebody has done their research when it comes to philosophy.

All in all, I guess what makes me feel those games are art is that the creators try to do something to make them something more than just games. And yet, I know this is very subjective and someone may think there's nothing artsy about those games, and they'll probably still be right. Like I said before, art is a slippery subject ;)

[Pete for President]

Either all are, or none are. It'll just be varying subjective opinions on how "good" art it is.

Just like even the crappiest movie ever made is still really art. Just not very good art (which again is subjective. Maybe the director thinks it's the most wonderful movie ever).

I disagree. There is a difference between entertaining someone and letting someone actively think about life and it's contents. That said, I don't consider a lot of games art. They are rare and wish there were more, but here goes.

The most relevant to society as it is today (and therefore a must-read in this topic) must be:

1: Metal Gear Solid 2 and 4. Yes, it spaces out at times, but here's the shocker; MGS2 predicted what various documentaries, social experts and movement groups have only just begun to shine light on: the monetary system. Digital flow and value of information. Controlling society using information, technology and entertainment. The immense charade that is politics and the president and such.

Also, the backstory of the Patriots (a small group of people controlling the USA on global scale) is based on theories that have yet to be proven false. The very interesting documentary "Zeitgeist" actually states that an organization similar to the Patriots exists.

MGS 4 continues very strongly on the monetary system and how war is the most profitable kind of business in the world. It shows just how sick and twisted mankind is. Controlling the flow of information and controlling societies makes a return as well, with new predictions for the future.

And that is depth most people fail to recognize.


Some others:
2: Shadow of the Colossus. An amazing reflection about life, death, right and wrong, solitude.
3: Final Fantasy X. Reflects on technology and questions mankind's use of technology, strong views on religion, life, but mostly death.
4: Ace Combat Zero. Look past the cliché war theme and you'll find loyalty, borders, politics and wealth/poor contradictions. It also questions the rightiousness of mankind itself and societies.

[Fynn]

Either all are, or none are. It'll just be varying subjective opinions on how "good" art it is.

Just like even the crappiest movie ever made is still really art. Just not very good art (which again is subjective. Maybe the director thinks it's the most wonderful movie ever).

I disagree. There is a difference between entertaining someone and letting someone actively think about life and it's contents. That said, I don't consider a lot of games art.

But still, many schools of art will disagree with you. Many believe art is not meant to make you think or express anything - it is just art and it exists just for itself. There was a name for it, but I forget :tongue:
Anyway, while your point is valid, I'm kind of more like with Mirage on this one.

[Slothy]

I haven't played the second installment (and likely never will as I have no faith in valves ability to make a sequel)

Huh? I find this position strange as Valve is the only company I can think of which has managed to make every sequel a better game than the original as far as I'm concerned. Portal may be the only one that is somewhat arguable for me as I feel the original is a tighter experience, but the second is the better game. And even if we did say for the sake of argument that Portal 2 is a lesser game than the original, it's still better than pretty much everything else released in the last few years.

I don't have time to elaborate on my list of games, though I will agree with nik on Portal and it would rank very high for me indeed.

[Dreddz]

If games are art then all are equal in terms of artistic merit. Ico and SoTC are often called out but I think those games are just pretentious, not the most artistic. If we are just talking about aesthetics then I really dig the Soul Reaver games as well as games like Rez and Child of Eden.

[nik0tine]

If games are art then all are equal in terms of artistic merit.YouTube - ‪Uncensored Resident Evil Opening‬‏ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GyOYaDHquE)

[Carl the Llama]

As others have mentioned, Shadow of the Colossus is an amazing piece of art, one of the best games ever to be released on the PS2 imo, though I am surprised no one has mentioned ICO that game is just stunning.

I definitely think Metal Gear Sold 4 is a work of art, so gritty, I honestly think that it is the very best game on the PS3, its just staggering how much detail they crammed into one disk.

The Fallout Series, they to are just epic pieces of gaming history, massive worlds and stunning graphics, and such a surreal feeling to the game lead to an epic piece of gaming.

Abes Exodus and Oddysee, for their time, these games had amazing backdrops, every location was unique (atleast in my memory it was lol) and lets not forget, these games were epic fun to play.

Broken Sword: Shadow of the Templars for me atleast this was an epic game, George is one of my all time favourite game people, and the voice actors were spot on, the American sounded American, the French sounded French... need I go on?

I know I already mentioned MGS4 but I felt that game deserved its very own entry on my list as does the following game: Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater, gone is the high tech gear, just you, splints and band aids, and a healthy dose of grit. The story for me... its just amazing after following the series so closely (I have played since MGS1 and also played Twin Snakes) this to me was the icing on the cake, I honestly wondered how Kojima could top this game after playing it, one of the very very few games to bring a tear to my eye the way Boss sacrificed herself, her name and her honor in the eyes of almost every American in the game... its just staggering, and she is truly a gaming hero imo, such a tragic loss, if I'm honest I would really love to see a game exploring her past, and I hope Kojima has something in the works for her.

[Pike]

Either all are, or none are. It'll just be varying subjective opinions on how "good" art it is.

Just like even the crappiest movie ever made is still really art. Just not very good art (which again is subjective. Maybe the director thinks it's the most wonderful movie ever).

Agreed.

That said, and everyone is going to see this coming from me, but Alpha freaking Centauri is a masterpiece. Its story is better than that of 95% of books I've read, and I've read a lot of books.

[Fynn]

If games are art then all are equal in terms of artistic merit.YouTube - ‪Uncensored Resident Evil Opening‬‏ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GyOYaDHquE)

Kitsch is still a form of art, you know. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsch)

[Bolivar]

Either all are, or none are. It'll just be varying subjective opinions on how "good" art it is.

Just like even the crappiest movie ever made is still really art. Just not very good art (which again is subjective. Maybe the director thinks it's the most wonderful movie ever).


If games are art then all are equal in terms of artistic merit.

This isn't true. In many mediums, they differentiate between what is art and what is entertainment. There are long treatises on the differences between movies and "film," and between books and "literature." I doubt a similar descriptor will arise for gaming, but I personally believe there are titles that are art, and titles that do not have enough creative elements to constitute anything other than a business venture.

Because gaming is a unique amalgamation of storytelling, images, animation, and music, there are games I consider art for two different reasons.

A) Some games I consider art because their stories introduce themes, explore the complexity of them, and in the end present some kind of conclusion to the consumer, if not probing them to think about it further. Games like this are:

1. Metal Gear Solid 4
2. Far Cry 2
3. Metal Gear Solid 2
4. Heavy Rain
5. Stacking

B) Other games have what probably pass as poor or cliche stories, but their efforts are so progressive in putting together a visual presentation, they can't not be art:

6. God of War III
7. Valkyria Chronicles
8. Ico
9. Dragon Quest VIII
10. Killzone 3

Don't get me wrong - a visually artistic game isn't just packing in as many polygons, but doing something interesting and creative with the imagination, coloring, shading, and effects like motion blur to create something beautiful. That's why I would say God of War III is artistic but Crysis 2 is not.

[TrollHunter]

Okami: Because it's so obvious I shouldn't need to provide an explanation

[Mirage]

Well, how do you define art?

Are erotic movies art? Is the parody game "Matt Hazard" art? Is Futurama art?

I would answer yet to all of those, and therefore also yes to "even the dumbest retard-FPS game ever made". Sure, I wouldn't like it, or think it was worth even opening the game's cover, but that's my subjective opinion on the game's quality. It is not impossible that somewhere in the world, there is a person who actually enjoys this game that I thought was utterly terrible. Just like there are people who absolutely loathe the movie "Kung Pow", even if I think it has decent artistic merit as a kung-fu parody.

[Slothy]

Because gaming is a unique amalgamation of storytelling, images, animation, and music, there are games I consider art for two different reasons.

A) Some games I consider art because their stories introduce themes, explore the complexity of them, and in the end present some kind of conclusion to the consumer, if not probing them to think about it further. Games like this are:

1. Metal Gear Solid 4
2. Far Cry 2
3. Metal Gear Solid 2
4. Heavy Rain
5. Stacking

B) Other games have what probably pass as poor or cliche stories, but their efforts are so progressive in putting together a visual presentation, they can't not be art:

6. God of War III
7. Valkyria Chronicles
8. Ico
9. Dragon Quest VIII
10. Killzone 3

The problem I have with the two categories of games as art you list here is that it focuses solely on story and visual presentation. While these are certainly large aspects of a lot of games the question it brings to my mind is, where does the actual game itself come into play in defining a game as being a work of art? Because the categories you're listing here are shared with books, movies, and TV, and don't specifically identify where the actual interaction comes in and how it affects the overall experience.

So with that in mind, I'm actually going to get away from a general list I may have otherwise come up with and go in a bit of a different direction than I originally intended. Because the true triumph of games considered art by a lot of people such as Ico and Shadow of the Colossus as far as I'm concerned isn't in the stories or the visual design alone, but how the gameplay complements and is complemented by the other elements. Ico isn't amazing for being a cleverly designed puzzle game about a boy and a girl escaping a castle. It's amazing for the subtle ways it forces you to work with and look after Yorda. When you open a door remotely for her, or catch her as she jumps across a gap. The real characterization and development is in the gameplay. The same can be said for Shadow of the Colossus, where you move from exhilaration as you're climbing a Colossus, to almost a sadness as the creatures fall to the ground dead by your blade, the sheer scale of the gameplay demonstrating both Wanders determination and the importance of the young woman to him, while the traditional victory screen is subverted to make you wonder if what you're doing may not be right at all.

And what of games like Mirror's Edge where the sheer freedom of movement can snap you back and forth from moments of sheer joy as you fly across rooftops and between buildings, to spine tingling terror when you fall and see the ground racing up to meet you? Or games like Starcraft and Brood War which over time reveal an amount of depth and complexity that no one, not even the developers ever truly predicted or intended?

At what point do we get over ourselves and admit that a game can evoke emotion and feeling simply by virtue of interacting with it? Because these are only a few of the games I think really cross over into the realm of art not just based on visuals or story, but through the experience of interacting with all of the elements. It's the gameplay that ties everything together, and in an interactive medium like this it also becomes not only the most important single aspect of the game itself, but also the one place where we can really see games tread new ground and set themselves apart from other mediums.

[nik0tine]

I agree with Vivi completely. The 'whole' is what determines whether or not something is a work of art, not the individual parts. I think Final Fantasy is a good example of this. In my mind, Uematsu is an artist without question even though I cannot say the same for most of the games themselves. There may not be a universal standard for what constitutes art, but there is one aspect that nobody can deny and that is that art is the synthesis of elements. When the individual elements in a work do not synthesize well it is either A) bad art or B) artless. I generally go with option B because I refuse to accept that every last thing ever created is a work of art but some people obviously disagree.

[Rostum]

To me art is something that can evoke emotion to the audience. Many have pointed out the story and visual presentations, and I believe that's certainly valid, but I also think game design in itself can be considered art.

In more words than I care to write, Vivi22 has pretty much explained this. The process of designing something to create an emotional rollercoaster for the audience, to me, is a good sign of what is art.

Case in point, outside of Vivi22's examples. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjLAhYnf4CY) From what I've seen at E3 and what the developers are talking about, this is pure art even moreso from a game design point of view.

[Polnareff]

Okami: Because it's so obvious I shouldn't need to provide an explanation

This times 100.

I'll also throw Street Fighter 3: Third Strike in there and King of Fighters XIII for how smooth they are, on top of having the best 2D visuals I've seen in a fighting game.

[DMKA]

Ico

[Bolivar]

At what point do we get over ourselves and admit that a game can evoke emotion and feeling simply by virtue of interacting with it? Because these are only a few of the games I think really cross over into the realm of art not just based on visuals or story, but through the experience of interacting with all of the elements. It's the gameplay that ties everything together, and in an interactive medium like this it also becomes not only the most important single aspect of the game itself, but also the one place where we can really see games tread new ground and set themselves apart from other mediums.

That whole post is treading really new ground because the concept of interaction provoking emotion and thought is something that I don't think has been formally recognized. But I think once we understand it a little better, that's where video games are going to come out as an unmatched medium.

It's really tricky, because traditionally, gameplay itself isn't something you would consider art. The classic argument is "Chess players don't get all defensive about whether what they do is art, so why do video game players?" I kinda agree with that (but what you said is slightly changing my mind). For example, David Jaffe once gave the example of when you're playing a war game, and you're in the middle of taking a hill, you're not thinking about the politics of war, the expendability of life, the duty/honor of a soldier - you're thinking about the game mechanics and the resources at your disposal and the strategy involved in how to accomplish the task at hand. I might even go as far as to posit that in Ico & Shadow, you're still focused on the set rules within that game's universe of mechanics and what can and cannot work. The stuff that already is art, the animation, images, music, and storytelling, are all brought up as a consequence of gameplay, whether you succeed and get to see new stuff or fail and have to start over again.

Obviously a lot of games (and to some extent, those two games) defy this. I think what makes me agree with you most is the end of Metal Gear Solid 3 where the game waits for you to euthanize The Boss. I do think maybe you're onto something, interaction as art, but it needs to be hashed out more before there's a real basis for it.

[blackmage_nuke]

I feel most games are art, like most paintings are art, no matter how uninspired and trite they are.

Now as for games that are "masterpieces"

Ico
Shadow of the Collossus
Metal Gear Solid
Final Fantasy VI and several others
Portal 1, Portal 2
Chrono Trigger
Monkey Island 2
Most Touhou Games

Maybe I'll give reasoning later.

[Chris]

Abes Exodus and Oddysee, for their time, these games had amazing backdrops, every location was unique (atleast in my memory it was lol) and lets not forget, these games were epic fun to play.
I absolutely agree with this statement. I remember being in such an awe the first time I played both of those games. They had everything. I would even go so far as to say that the first game was groundbreaking. It was just that good in every aspect.

Streets of Rage II was and is a perfect example of how one game can take all the good aspects of a genre and fuse them into one piece of perfect side-scrolling art.

[Mo-Nercy]

Either all are, or none are. It'll just be varying subjective opinions on how "good" art it is.

Just like even the crappiest movie ever made is still really art. Just not very good art (which again is subjective. Maybe the director thinks it's the most wonderful movie ever).
I agree.


Okami: Because it's so obvious I shouldn't need to provide an explanation
I agree.

Also, Little Big Planet.

[Del Murder]

Mario Paint. :D

[Shoeberto]

I ctrl+F'd for it. I did not see it. You guys are fucking terrible. You pick all the low-hanging fruit but completely eschew Silent Hill 2? I'm embarrassed for all of you.

Some of the other choices I saw as I skimmed were good though. Silent Hill 2 absolutely belongs in the list as a work that helps define how games can be art, though.

[escobert]

Saga Frontier 2
Beautiful world and design. Very interesting world

Guild Wars
Very stunning and beautiful landscapes and cities. The world seems alive at times

Final Fantasy Tactics
Story is amazing, the world is perfect for the mood and setting.

[Big D]

I'd say that games can be art the same way that paintings, sculptures or films can be art. Not every example will be considered a work of art, but the medium itself sure counts as a type of art.

[Yar]

Zelda Ocarina of Time!

[Carl the Llama]

I ctrl+F'd for it. I did not see it. You guys are fucking terrible. You pick all the low-hanging fruit but completely eschew Silent Hill 2? I'm embarrassed for all of you.

Some of the other choices I saw as I skimmed were good though. Silent Hill 2 absolutely belongs in the list as a work that helps define how games can be art, though.

OMG how could I have forgotten this game, I have completed that game so many times, I remember once I played it non stop all the way through every possible ending, I started off with a guide by the time I got to the third walkthrough I didn't even need it xD