No SeeD if not for the Sorceress...what happened originally? *SPOILERS*

[phoenixheffa]

Obviously I'm obsessed w/ Ultimecia today! In many ways, Ultimecia perpetuated her own defeat. Because she chose to pass her power on to Edea in front of a future Squall, Edea was given the ideas for Gardens and SeeD. What do all of you think ORIGINALLY happened to make Ultimecia so bent on escaping death? I'm not talking about what happened in any of the 4 discs...those events were affected by Ultimecia meddling in the time stream...SeeD wouldn't have existed had it not been for her.

[10-Breaker]

Maybe it was that originally Matron and Cid decided to make Balamb where they'd train SeeD who would ensure the peace. And some lunatic sorcerer just happened to go haywire and then they decided that it was the SeeD objective. Time passes and Ultimecia comes along. And some other future SeeD or SeeD party accomplished in defeating Ultimecia, or she took them as threat so she decided to take out the very root of SeeDs. Corrupting Edea would've been the easiest way, but she stayed behind her and her husbands vision. Therefore leading into Squall and companions defeating Ultimecia once again in eternal circle just for her to see that it is not possible to escape fate.

[Jessweeee♪]

I think it was always that way. I'm not going to get into explaining it because the time travel thing causes headaches, but think about it.

If it wasn't always that way, well perhaps she's just plain evil like Adel and went back in time to transfer her powers in order to make herself stronger. The popular theory goes like this:
Edea (1) and Adel (1) both have powers.
Both pass on to Rinoa (2).
Goes down the line until it reaches Ultimecia (?)
Ultimecia (?) passes on her powers to Edea (1 + ?)
Edea (1 + ?) and Adel (1) pass to Rinoa (2 + ?)
Eventually passes to Ultimecia again (? + ?)
Repeat!

[Roogle]

I believe that one way of looking at a time loop is that it simply came into existence in its complete form somehow. I don't know what the original cause of the time loop was, and I don't think that the game gave us enough information to figure out what caused it all.

[champagne supernova]

I think it was always that way. I'm not going to get into explaining it because the time travel thing causes headaches, but think about it.

If it wasn't always that way, well perhaps she's just plain evil like Adel and went back in time to transfer her powers in order to make herself stronger. The popular theory goes like this:
Edea (1) and Adel (1) both have powers.
Both pass on to Rinoa (2).
Goes down the line until it reaches Ultimecia (?)
Ultimecia (?) passes on her powers to Edea (1 + ?)
Edea (1 + ?) and Adel (1) pass to Rinoa (2 + ?)
Eventually passes to Ultimecia again (? + ?)
Repeat!

Surely that would cause a singularity in the universe and it would all collapse?

[Jessweeee♪]

I think it was always that way. I'm not going to get into explaining it because the time travel thing causes headaches, but think about it.

If it wasn't always that way, well perhaps she's just plain evil like Adel and went back in time to transfer her powers in order to make herself stronger. The popular theory goes like this:
Edea (1) and Adel (1) both have powers.
Both pass on to Rinoa (2).
Goes down the line until it reaches Ultimecia (?)
Ultimecia (?) passes on her powers to Edea (1 + ?)
Edea (1 + ?) and Adel (1) pass to Rinoa (2 + ?)
Eventually passes to Ultimecia again (? + ?)
Repeat!

Surely that would cause a singularity in the universe and it would all collapse?

Time kompression?!

[champagne supernova]

No, the storyline in VIII. Because if energy and matter cannot be created and destroyed, and the sorcerer's power grows during every loop, energy & matter would be created.

This is why people shouldn't try apply the real-world to fantasy games.

[Iceglow]

Ok well it isn't technically a true time loop. If it was a true time loop, Squall wouldn't be seen celebrating the victory, he'd merely wake up in the hospital bed again having just gotten his scar going "wtf, why am I here?" The only real person affected by the time loop is essentially Ultimecia.

As she dies, she passes her powers to Edea Kramer. Since we know Ultimecia is not from the near future indicating that she would inherit her powers from Edea Kramer but is instead from the distant future, the theory of her gaining more power is effectively nullified. How? Simple, if you transfer the charge of power from one battery or energy cell to another there will be a conductor involved, the conductor is likely going to generate resistance. Resistance causes energy to be spent generating heat, that heat means less energy is going in to the second battery each time. Assuming magical sorceress transfer of power follows a reasonable physics law such as that then it is safe to determine that not all power would be transferred to a new sorceress from the last, some would escape so to speak one way or another. Of course a sorceress who is new will generally speaking be weaker than one who has lived for a number of years with her power, the power level would increase as the sorceress learns to expand her control over her powers. Just because you're suddenly a sorceress doesn't mean you don't need to learn to control these powers, I doubt they come with a manual.

As to why Edea receives Ultimecia's power? Perhaps a Sorceress feels an inescapable urge to pass on her powers much like how Edea passed her own powers to Rinoa in the battle on disc 2. If you notice however Edea still retains a sorceress' powers on disc 3 after she gave up her powers to Rinoa. To my mind this indicates that perhaps Edea was already a sorceress when Ultimecia transferred what little left of her power to her and perhaps this transfer of power (if power can be used to power things then it can be used up in combat, certainly the power transfer does not seem as dramatic as that of Edea to Rinoa) is what later becomes the power transferred to Rinoa, we'll never truly know as this was never encountered or explained in the story.

Perhaps Ultimecia is voluntarily creating her own personal time loop with the transfer to Edea maybe some of her consciousness is transferred too. Not so much in a bid to gain power just a bid to try again. She is dying, her goal is never realized, transferring that little spark to Edea is essentially a gambit to try again. Repeat a task enough times and eventually, probability law states even a 1:1000000000000000 chance will happen.

However from the focal point of Squall and his companion characters in the end of the game, the good guys won, the evil sorceress is defeated, time compression is avoided and all is well in the world (and SeeD would have a lovely contract with Esthar to help clean out the monsters after the Lunar Cry and with a new Esthar/Gabaldian war looming) they will live (we assume) happily ever after. There is no time loop for Squall and co, they see the events once and Squall is aware that Ultimecia passed her power to Edea Kramer because he witnessed it happen in compressed time. However in a parallel universe, Squall is simultaneously waking up in the hospital wing after the training accident with Seifer still a cadet and none the wiser about any of this on the morning of his big exam to become a SeeD member. If effect the only person experiencing any form of time loop would be Ultimecia who one would imagine would be aware from the time that Squall is 7 years old that she failed once more and that this child is the one who will kill her eventually. Ironically, if she was to murder Squall then I doubt the party would prevail against her and she would win. Perhaps she is too weak and Edea overpowering and not noticing the power inside of her has a malevolent nature and awareness. Perhaps this is why Edea disappears on the white SeeD ship to keep Ultimecia away from Squall whilst he grows up.

Time travel is a complex thing but if you apply some logic and rational science theory to it then it quickly unravels in to simple solutions.

[champagne supernova]

Time travel is a complex thing but if you apply some logic and rational science theory to it then it quickly unravels in to simple solutions.

And make some assumptions. I'm just going for: It was fated. Because it seems to fit into some of the overarching themes of the narrative.

[Mirage]

@iceglow
Why is it a loop from Ultimecia's focal point? Doesn't she just get some powerz, fuck up the world, go back in time to transfer her powers, then die?

The sorceress powers might be looping eternally though.

[Roogle]

As to why Edea receives Ultimecia's power? Perhaps a Sorceress feels an inescapable urge to pass on her powers much like how Edea passed her own powers to Rinoa in the battle on disc 2. If you notice however Edea still retains a sorceress' powers on disc 3 after she gave up her powers to Rinoa. To my mind this indicates that perhaps Edea was already a sorceress when Ultimecia transferred what little left of her power to her and perhaps this transfer of power (if power can be used to power things then it can be used up in combat, certainly the power transfer does not seem as dramatic as that of Edea to Rinoa) is what later becomes the power transferred to Rinoa, we'll never truly know as this was never encountered or explained in the story.

Edea was a Sorceress prior to the incident at the orphanage between her and Ultimecia. You are right that a Sorceress must give up her powers to a woman in the vicinity before she is allowed to pass on. What happens if a Sorceress is killed by monsters and has no one to pass her power on to, I wonder? Maybe that power sustains the body until it arrives in proximity to another woman. Who knows...

[Jessweeee♪]

As to why Edea receives Ultimecia's power? Perhaps a Sorceress feels an inescapable urge to pass on her powers much like how Edea passed her own powers to Rinoa in the battle on disc 2. If you notice however Edea still retains a sorceress' powers on disc 3 after she gave up her powers to Rinoa. To my mind this indicates that perhaps Edea was already a sorceress when Ultimecia transferred what little left of her power to her and perhaps this transfer of power (if power can be used to power things then it can be used up in combat, certainly the power transfer does not seem as dramatic as that of Edea to Rinoa) is what later becomes the power transferred to Rinoa, we'll never truly know as this was never encountered or explained in the story.

Edea was a Sorceress prior to the incident at the orphanage between her and Ultimecia. You are right that a Sorceress must give up her powers to a woman in the vicinity before she is allowed to pass on. What happens if a Sorceress is killed by monsters and has no one to pass her power on to, I wonder? Maybe that power sustains the body until it arrives in proximity to another woman. Who knows...

I believe the Ultimania guide said that while sorceresses generally have the same lifespans as humans, they can't die until they pass on their powers. Nothing definite is said about whether or not a sorceress is forced to give up their powers, but it's suggested that Ultimecia was trying hard to hold on, so I think that would be the case.

Also, Edea does not retain her sorceress powers. She goes to Esthar to seal her powers, but they can't do anything because oops she has no powers to seal. Of course that leaves the question of why she can still do that ice thing, but hey, Ellone and Selphie have special powers without being sorceresses, so maybe she doesn't need to be a sorceress.

[Roogle]

I would assume that having been imbued with the Sorceress Power at some point would grant special abilities even after the power has left one's body. That is pure speculation at least based on the fact that Edea is still able to battle and use some Sorcery like Ice Strike.

[Jessweeee♪]

GameFAQs: Final Fantasy VIII (PS) Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ by Sir Bahamut (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197343-final-fantasy-viii/faqs/34215)

Here is an interesting super long essay by multiple authors full of stuff, some of which is relevant to the topic. Particularly interesting is the section talking about Adel and what her motivations might be.

[Evol]

Ultimecia knew that Squall will defeat her but it seems like she has some hidden agendas in doing so.