Do you think FFVIII's Game Design had an Impact on the series?

[Wolf Kanno]

When you think about it, FFVIII was a super gutsy game in the franchise. After the huge success of VII, they really could have just retooled VII's design and released it but instead they really tried to shake up the formula and the RPG genre itself with getting rid of MP, having unlimited but killable summons, and changing around leveling, customization, and town mechanics. I mean, their really is not another game like VIII on the market, so if its so radically different, did the change really impact the future installments or did it simply reconfirm that people only desire the status quo?

[Super Sepiroth]

To be perfectly honest, it seemed like a "see if it sticks" attempt by square. As much as I loved the game, it did receive a lot of criticism, to which the system got changed again by IX.

As you put it Wolf, it was gutsy, but I think it affected the franchise in terms of a "best not try that again" way for SOME areas of the game, which makes the game very unique.

[Primus Inter Pares]

The thing about Final Fantasy is that it has always been constantly remaking itself. Your argument could just as easily be applied to VII's Materia system or the way characters in IX are very much locked into their intended role. Removing MP wasn't that big of a change really, especially with the way the magic system works. It's not like you could cast unlimited spells and the summon system was really such a small part of the game mechanics especially later on. I don't think they re-introduced MP because the lack of it was unpopular in FFVIII, but more as a result of their desire to have every Final Fantasy be different from the last.

Once we moved into the Playstation Era every Final Fantasy has been very different in terms of game mechanics and they really never seem to take into account what did and didn't work in the previous games. Some of the concepts have been revisited in different ways in Final Fantasy X such as killable summons and being able to have some extra input in battle. (like Squall's gunblade compared to the interactive overdrives).

The Junction system was never seen again, but then again neither was Materia and I think those were very similar concepts. I don't think there was anything gutsy at all with FFVIII's design. They knew based on the success of VII they could release basically anything so there wasn't exactly going to be that much pressure. But basically when you get down to it I don't think any of the "modern" (FFVII+) games have had that much impact on their successors, and VIII is no exception.

[Wolf Kanno]

While I agree the franchise is about reinventing itself, I would argue the Junction System was a rather big departure from other games in the franchise. The Materia system itself is just a further breakdown from VI's Relic/Esper/Class system which in itself is a variation of FFV's Job Class system. Most of the Post-FFV customization systems are generally just a re-imagining of V's Job Class system, IX and XIII being the exceptions to the rule.

I feel the fact VIII decided to get rid of Armor and meaningful weapon upgrades in exchange of integrating it into the Junction system was a pretty big departure. There really wasn't a game before that tried it. While spells are still limited, technically the ability to draw and simul-cast meant it was possible to have infinite spells in some battles, and the way it integrated with customization, many players found themselves to stock up on spells to use as makeshift armor and buffers for stats. You still equip Skills through the GFs but VIII makes it far more limiting, at first but then you also get the ability to remove them and replace them. Making them technically more flexible than V-VII's systems. The shear fact they introduced a "steal spell" mechanic in itself was pretty interesting and has never really been done since which is a shame because I feel it could be expanded into something cool. The leveling system itself also brought in some major new dynamics to the game that most gamers at the time took for granted. Not many games punish you for gaining levels.

[Slothy]

I feel the fact VIII decided to get rid of Armor and meaningful weapon upgrades in exchange of integrating it into the Junction system was a pretty big departure. There really wasn't a game before that tried it. While spells are still limited, technically the ability to draw and simul-cast meant it was possible to have infinite spells in some battles, and the way it integrated with customization, many players found themselves to stock up on spells to use as makeshift armor and buffers for stats. You still equip Skills through the GFs but VIII makes it far more limiting, at first but then you also get the ability to remove them and replace them. Making them technically more flexible than V-VII's systems. The shear fact they introduced a "steal spell" mechanic in itself was pretty interesting and has never really been done since which is a shame because I feel it could be expanded into something cool. The leveling system itself also brought in some major new dynamics to the game that most gamers at the time took for granted. Not many games punish you for gaining levels.

You know, I've actually said this before, but FFVIII's junction system was a wonderful concept. I mean it, I really love the idea of the junction system. It was new, it had never been done before or since, and it allowed for some pretty cool customization potential. The only thing I hated was how absolutely unbalanced it is. I wouldn't have a problem with requiring either very deep knowledge of the game and mechanics, or a lot of luck, to break the gameplay, but in this game, even a small amount of understanding of what you were doing made the difficulty disappear.

I would love to see another company take up this system (or do something similar) and balance it well. Of course Square could revisit it themselves, but I don't have a lot of faith in them these days to get much right.

One of the biggest problems with the junction system as I see it is that there are so many ways to get new magic in the game with almost zero risk, and you gain them all so early, that there's no incentive to not spend a few rounds drawing each battle until you've stocked a couple dozen more spells for each character, then wipe out your opponent. Or buy as many tents as you can and refine them into Curaga's. I don't think there's any easy solution to that and certainly no single solution. It'd require a tweaking of pretty much every system at work in the game to fix it.

As to the original question, I can't see that it had much of an impact at all. The junction system was quickly abandoned, either for being too different, or too difficult to balance. And with regard to everything else, since they've been moving (with the exception of FFXII) to more linear games with less interactivity in towns (or even towns at all), it's hard to say VIII had a lasting impact. Mind you, I think it's so reviled among many fans that Square probably thinks it would be crazy to take too much from it.

[Jessweeee♪]

Yeah, I don't think it had much of an impact either apart from Triple Triad. It was so awesome, that they decided to make a really shitty version of it called Tetra Master. And then Sphere Break, which was more fun than Tetra Master, but still no worthwhile rewards compared to Triple Triad. I really loved the Junction system, partly because it was so much fun to exploit, and I thought monsters leveling up with you was a pretty neat idea.

[Depression Moon]

What was different as far as towns in VIII? All I noticed was that I couldn't loot.

[ShinGundam]

I always thought FF9 was more of FF8 in terms of storytelling structure, card game, the way they used per-rendered graphics. so yes i think it did impact FF series. My favorite part of FF8 game system is the ability to customize the entire menu to add or remove functions such as Mug/Draw/Item.

[Bolivar]

A lot of FFVIII has influenced other games. You had FFIX use the same engine. And the style of "3 guys, 3 girls" as well the girls being "jail-bait, dark side, girl next door" archetypes carried over into FFX and XIII. I think it really defined the kind of story you get in those games as well. Of course there's the gunblade. I don't know if FFX really would've gone for a love story if FFVIII didn't do it first. And of course, it was a huge revolution in sound in that Uematsu finally left the chip behind and moved straight into samples. I think that made a tremendous shift in the RPG genre, and I can't honestly say if we're better off for it. When you combine that with the story feel, you essentially have how Kitase & Toriyama view RPGs. And then of course we have how it changed summons.

I don't think FFVIII was a radical departure with its game mechanics, as far as getting rid of MP and armor (I would argue FFII's is more out there from the series). But I do think it was the most complicated. Essentially, it continued the tradition of FFVI and VII, of breaking down FFV's classes into its constituent parts. FFVII already really changed the armor system, FFVIII just went one extra step. Still, I think it was a very complicated route where magic determined EVERYTHING about that character, even esoteric stats like status/elemental damage, there were a lot of different ways to obtain magic, and a lot of crazy things to do with enemies, not to mention how the separate card system plays into the customization as well. There were so many insane options, unfortunately when you create a system this large it's hard to maintain the balance and players find the cracks. With a series like Final Fantasy where the players play it multiple times over and research it to find every little advantage, it was only a matter of time before the system crumbled beneath its own weight.

Square has tried a lot of other systems and I think that's what they should do, but I think they know they don't want to go as complicated as VIII. Actually, the unique system trend would be accurate if it weren't for XIII, which I was very off put by the fact that they simply revisited the Sphere Grid with the Crystarium except they made it far simpler. That should have been considered a huge stain on the XIII team's reputation for doing that.

[Slothy]

And of course, it was a huge revolution in sound in that Uematsu finally left the chip behind and moved straight into samples.

I don't think that's because of FFVIII though. The only reason he stuck with the soundchip in FFVII was because he wanted the sounds to load very quickly and not take up a lot of system resources so those resources could be allocated to other parts of the game. But of course, as companies get better at utilizing a consoles hardware they can squeeze more out of it, and the amount of time it takes to load sample based music stops being as much of a limitation and they can implement that into newer titles. Honestly, moving in that direction was inevitable, and once they went down that road there was obviously no going back for big budget productions. They just happened to do it in FFVIII first.

[Skyblade]

I feel the fact VIII decided to get rid of Armor and meaningful weapon upgrades in exchange of integrating it into the Junction system was a pretty big departure. There really wasn't a game before that tried it. While spells are still limited, technically the ability to draw and simul-cast meant it was possible to have infinite spells in some battles, and the way it integrated with customization, many players found themselves to stock up on spells to use as makeshift armor and buffers for stats. You still equip Skills through the GFs but VIII makes it far more limiting, at first but then you also get the ability to remove them and replace them. Making them technically more flexible than V-VII's systems. The shear fact they introduced a "steal spell" mechanic in itself was pretty interesting and has never really been done since which is a shame because I feel it could be expanded into something cool. The leveling system itself also brought in some major new dynamics to the game that most gamers at the time took for granted. Not many games punish you for gaining levels.

You know, I've actually said this before, but FFVIII's junction system was a wonderful concept. I mean it, I really love the idea of the junction system. It was new, it had never been done before or since, and it allowed for some pretty cool customization potential. The only thing I hated was how absolutely unbalanced it is. I wouldn't have a problem with requiring either very deep knowledge of the game and mechanics, or a lot of luck, to break the gameplay, but in this game, even a small amount of understanding of what you were doing made the difficulty disappear.

Sure it has. Go play Golden Sun.


I would love to see another company take up this system (or do something similar) and balance it well. Of course Square could revisit it themselves, but I don't have a lot of faith in them these days to get much right.

Camelot did it. With Golden Sun. And it's brilliant.


One of the biggest problems with the junction system as I see it is that there are so many ways to get new magic in the game with almost zero risk, and you gain them all so early, that there's no incentive to not spend a few rounds drawing each battle until you've stocked a couple dozen more spells for each character, then wipe out your opponent. Or buy as many tents as you can and refine them into Curaga's. I don't think there's any easy solution to that and certainly no single solution. It'd require a tweaking of pretty much every system at work in the game to fix it.

Actually, I've been working on tweaking this myself. It started out with just a couple minor modifications, but it blossomed into a pretty huge endeavor that completely revamped the magic system, increased the difficulty, and gave some balance to the whole idea, if my thoughts pan out properly. I'll post more on that later.


As for impact, I think the biggest impact it had was in basic concepts, as well as what hasn't been repeated. The "Double Edged Sword" idea (which was originally present, though negligible, in FFVII's Materia system) has been almost completely junked from the series. The card game and collection ideas, which were bigger in FFVIII than in any previous title, were massively expanded in later games (for good or ill, I'll let you decide).

[Slothy]

Sure it has. Go play Golden Sun.

I'll have to check it out.

[Jiro]

Golden Sun is definitely worth a look. There's what, three of them now? All of them are excellent. Hidden gems, for sure.

[Bolivar]

Camelot makes too many games that don't have "Shining" in the title.

[Flying Arrow]

Golden Sun is FFVIII-like? I had no idea. I might have to try this.

[Wolf Kanno]

^ It is and it isn't. You have summons that affect your stats and skills and using them in combat lowers your skills but that very vague description is how they are similar. They don't play anything alike, though I would argue that they both also share the whole "risk factor" of each system is a bit grossly embellished. You can get through 90% of Golden Sun by spamming summons and not worry about the risk to your stats.

[Depression Moon]

Summons can hurt your stats in VIII?

[Wolf Kanno]

No, only using magic does (barely), Golden Sun is where using summons hurt your stats. They both have a "risk factor" system which is why people are comparing them in this thread.

[Darylisgogo]

i think the one really unique attribute that had a deep impact on the series was the romance development in the storyline. hell its on the cover of the game title with squall holding rinoa. up until this game there was never as well drawn out romance story development in the final fantasy series. cecil and rosa were together at the beginning of ff4 so that doesn't count. If there is any romantic relationships that developed during the storyline in previous final fantasy games between some of the main characters its usually vague and mainly left for the players imagination like aeris and cloud or celes and locke. not really covered in detail just hints to a possible romantic relationship between the characters. and the inner thought dialogue of squall was really different as well at that time, but didn't have a strong impact and wasn't picked up by any of the more recent games in the series. Cloud had his crazy breakdown inner dialogue thoughts as well but they made squall's thoughts a major part of the storyline. In my opinion that can really help character development in the storyline. the song eyes on me had a huge impact as well. Eyes on me was probably one of most memorable things of ff8. Think that's why ff9 had melodies of life song in it. but as far as battle system ff8 was the first to raise lvl cap to 100 (i don't think any later final fantasy game copied that idea tho) It was also the first to have over the cap damage feature in it with kamikaze and eden that could hit well over 9999 traditional cap in one hit. ffx, and ffxiii went much further with that idea breaking outside the traditional cap. As for junction system I think it was different and unique but did not have a strong impact on the series. I like ff8 a lot but junction was an epic fail and its biggest downfall imo, and im pretty sure squaresoft realized it too, because they seemed to make a point in ff9 to go back to a more traditional armor and spell system.

[Sylvie]

I'll start off by saying that Final Fantasy VIII, outside of any lovable nostalgia one may have, has a terrible plot and pretty much all of the characters suck. Square took a high school anime approach, and while they did it better than most actual high school-themed anime series, it still sucked. It incorporated probably the worst plot-twist I have ever had the displeasure of being a victim of. All the characters find out that the game's summon system has repressed their memories of having been orphans together in the same orphanage run by the main antagonist at that point of the game who was actually just being brainwashed by a more significant antagonist. What a piece of sh*t.

Now, here's why I love Final Fantasy VIII: It did things differently. Instead of the usual four-to-five piece armor setup, you get a weapon slot and an armor/accessory slot, which did carry on into later games in the series.

The draw system is something that most hated. But if you're any good Final Fantasy fan, you should've been toughened up and prepared for tedious tasks at that point in the series. I'm okay with power-drawing all the spells that I can possibly draw for a few hours, somehow.

The junction system is by far one among the most original, interesting, and attractive stat management system I've encountered in a JRPG. I felt like I had more options, and I felt that those options were more unique to and dependent upon me as a player and how much time I'm willing to put into my character's attributes.

I'll also add that the game had the best window skin/color scheme ever. But I realize this is a fairly mundane and weird preference to have.

One thing I didn't like was the limit break system. I hardly use them because I can't fucking stand having low HP and it's absolutely retarded that you need to be close to death in order to take advantage of the powerful attacks that the game offers. I'm going to throw in here that I did not complete the game and I'm not very well versed on the limit system because I didn't bother with it, due to the low-HP requirement. If I'm wrong about any of that, I apologize.

FFVIII did pivot Final Fantasy and probably JRPG's as a whole into a more modern and sleek tone. FFIX actually deflected this, but FFX picked it right back up.

[sharkythesharkdogg]

One thing I didn't like was the limit break system. I hardly use them because I can't smurfing stand having low HP and it's absolutely retarded that you need to be close to death in order to take advantage of the powerful attacks that the game offers. I'm going to throw in here that I did not complete the game and I'm not very well versed on the limit system because I didn't bother with it, due to the low-HP requirement. If I'm wrong about any of that, I apologize.
.

You could draw the spell "aura" or "aurora" (I don't remember) to put the characters into limit break mode. They stay that way for a while. Admittedly if you did this while their HP was high, you were less likely to get one of the more powerful limit breaks, but there's always a way around that.

[Darylisgogo]

One thing I didn't like was the limit break system. I hardly use them because I can't smurfing stand having low HP and it's absolutely retarded that you need to be close to death in order to take advantage of the powerful attacks that the game offers. I'm going to throw in here that I did not complete the game and I'm not very well versed on the limit system because I didn't bother with it, due to the low-HP requirement. If I'm wrong about any of that, I apologize.
.

You could draw the spell "aura" or "aurora" (I don't remember) to put the characters into limit break mode. They stay that way for a while. Admittedly if you did this while their HP was high, you were less likely to get one of the more powerful limit breaks, but there's always a way around that.

That was kind of one of the ridiculous things about FF8 is when it comes down to it the hardest boss fights you can just walk in battle with low hp or put aura on and spam limit breaks till they fall... makes it way too easy. Limit breaks should be badass and fun to use just like summons, but not a requirement or an easy cheat to rush through hard bosses i don't think. FF8 went overboard on limit breaks, i guess cuz magic wasn't all that useful and relying on GFs could only get you so far.

[Roogle]

One thing I didn't like was the limit break system. I hardly use them because I can't smurfing stand having low HP and it's absolutely retarded that you need to be close to death in order to take advantage of the powerful attacks that the game offers. I'm going to throw in here that I did not complete the game and I'm not very well versed on the limit system because I didn't bother with it, due to the low-HP requirement. If I'm wrong about any of that, I apologize.

I had the same problem with the Limit Break system when I played through the game as a child. I almost never saw most characters' limit breaks because I was always keeping my characters' HP up to an optimal level and whenever it did show itself, it wasn't very impressive.

My solution every time I play the game is to use a code or modify the game to allow me to access the Limit Breaks whenever I choose. This makes every character unique and I have fun balancing the gameplay and difficulty with my own style of playing through the game.