Cocoon (maybe spoilers)

[crono_logical]

Maybe I missed something, but why did they have to build a new cocoon to replace the old one? What was wrong with abandoning the old one and just continue to live on Gran Pulse? :p Would have certainly mooted most of the story if they just did that :D

[Del Murder]

Miriel asked me the same thing. I have no idea why they had to build a whole new planet when they had a perfectly good one right under them. Maybe conditions on Pulse are really harsh and unpredictable? Or maybe none of this plot made any sense and they just put in whatever they thought was 'cool' or 'futuristic'?

[Sephex]

Maybe for whatever reason it is easier for them to maintain some modern conveniences in a Cocoon-like planet.

[Jessweeee♪]

Survival on Pulse is supposed to be really difficult. Everyone just kind of died off. But yeah, it still doesn't make much sense. Everything on Cocoon is supposed to be sustained by FalCie, not just gravity. Their food, their water, even their sunlight! As difficult as it is on Pulse, it's still more practical than maintaining life on Cocoon. The most plausible explanation is everyone on Cocoon still being afraid of Pulse, but everyone seems to be totally fine and dandy with the fact that six l'Cie killed their entire ecosystem so I don't think that's really a thing for them.

[Loony BoB]

This is something Danielle and I talked about as well. Especially when you consider Academia - I mean, if they can build that incredible city (not to mention a second Cocoon), what's stopping them from making more cities throughout Pulse?

The key thing for me would be the creatures that live on Pulse. And I think the best display of this environment would be New Bodhum, during the attack by those creatures. Basically, outside of Academia, there aren't enough soldiers to take on the beasts in the wilderness. Unlike the beasts on Earth, these monsters can rain magic down on you.

There is, of course, also the fal'Cie. While dead on Cocoon, they are not so dead on Pulse. So even if they did slowly pin down some safe countries throughout the world - enough to supply them with the food needed - then who's to say that some fal'Cie won't come along and turn half the population into Cie'th and/or l'Cie? I'd say pretty slim, really. After playing through FFXIII I think a big lesson learned was "fal'Cie are not to be trusted and they do act in their own interests." Just one 'evil' fal'Cie is enough to turn an entire city to Cie'th for all we know. I mean, Titan is there purely to produce more powerful creatures. So either you get more and more powerful wildlife or you take on a fal'Cie the size of a mountain. Good luck!

As for the ecosystem and all that, I'm certain with the technology that they have that they could easily replicate most of the things that the fal'Cie provided, such as light and food and whatnot.

[Lamia]

Why build another Cocoon?

Because the current Cocoon is going to fall.

But why not use the gravity thingies to stop the old Cocoon from falling?

Because it's probably too risky to add them to a planet populated with many people - what if something went wrong and Cocoon fell? It's easier to put them on an empty Cocoon and get the devices up and running before people jump ship.

Why not just move to Pulse?

Pick your reason. People on Cocoon do not want to live there, Pulse Fal'cie, dangerous wildlife, and harsh conditions. Hope's reasoning: If we don't HAVE to force evacuation to Pulse, then why should we?

How is Cocoon sustained since the end of the Fal'Cie?

Human academics and their technology has replaced Fal'cie technology and accounts for the ecosystem on Cocoon.
It seems that not all areas of Cocoon are functional though due to the fact that some have moved to Pulse... particularly, the city of Bodhum was destroyed and recreated as New Bodhum on Pulse and then there is the inhabitants of Academia. What did people do before Academia replaced the Fal'cie? That is a plot hole, but I guess we can assume that they figured out how to survive during that time, perhaps with residual resources.

Well, that's my crack at it.

[Mirage]

The need for another Cocoon is one of the bigger plot holes in the game. Academia flourished down on the ground, and during the course of the game, we can see it surviving almost 500 years, only to be destroyed by a gigantic paradox-like thing (which a Cocoon wouldn't be immune to either). The technology developed by the Academy is likely to be more than good enough to deal with any natural disaster or monster attack.

Anyway, the old Cocoon can't be used because it's built around a power source that is incompatible with non-falcie technology (whatever that means, just sounds like a convenient excuse by the writers to me). Hope's reasoning is terrible. Why is it worse to force evacuate everyone to a gigantic city on the ground, than it is to force evacuate everyone to a different gigantic city in the sky? With all the research, development and resources they poured into the Cocoon 2.0 project, they could probably have built another 2-3 Academia-size cities, and given them even better wildlife-defences. There are flying giant dragons on pulse, what would stop them from smacking a hole at the bottom of Cocoon? If Cocoon's shell is strong enough to withstand attacks like that, why couldn't they just give such a shell to a ground-based city?

We also have flying falcies on Pulse. What's stopping them from flying up to a new Cocoon and just blast half the population with cieth-rays? What, a strong outer shell, you say? Sort of like what you could give to a ground-based city? Unimaginable!

And again, Academia existed for 500 years and showed no sign of declining because of Pulse-variables.

Now, you see, a good story would have explained crap like this. If FF13-2 had a good and well though through story, we would have been given reasons why cities like Academia couldn't exist indefinitely, and why we absolutely had to make a city in the sky. Of course, 13-2 doesn't have anything even resembling an acceptable story.

[Karifean]

But it's still fun cause the gameplay is really good. Battle system, sidequests and exploration are all great. Some may say good gameplay can never make up for a terrible story, but I didn't find the story too distracting, it's wasn't that bad IMO (although admittedly not really a good story). Maybe I'm just not the kind of person who puts thoughts into the reasoning behind decisions made in an SE game.

[Mirage]

Yeah, sure, the gameplay is fun.

I like the gameplay, and I rate gameplay as way more important than story. Right now though, in this thread, we're not talking about the gameplay, we're talking about the story. And boy, is it terrible.

[Loony BoB]

To be fair, any story involving time travel is destined to have so many holes. The weird thing is that this hole has nothing to do with time travel.

I imagine that regardless of the fact that there are flying fal'Cie and whatnot, Cocoon could easily be simply too high for the vast majority - if not all - of fal'Cie/dragons/etc. to reach. And if you're going to defend against something, it's generally easier to defend against a handful of dragons than a handful of dragons and a countless number of land-dwelling beasts. I still think there could be justification for making a new Cocoon on those grounds. I'm not saying there is justification, but if there was any, that would probably be it.

The problem is that they never bothered to tell us in-game what that justification was. The moment they discussed making a new Cocoon, they should have immediately told us why.

Also, was the old Cocoon still inhabited to any major degree? I can't remember any locations we went to that were actually on it.

[Mirage]

Yes, and your first point is exactly why FF13-2 should not have been a time travel story. I'm no writer, but I bet I could write a FF13-relevant, better and more consistent story without time travel in less than a week. There are literally dozens of directions they could have taken that all would have been better than loltimetravel. Hell, even Barthandeus surviving and secretly plotting his revenge would have been more believable than what we got.

[Loony BoB]

Agreed.

EDIT: Although despite Barthy surviving being more realistic, I have to say that this plot would probably still have been more entertaining - if only because Barthy is such a freaking nobody when it comes to villains. So boring. I'd have preferred it be a new evil. My biggest wish was for it to start off exactly where the previous game ended, and to continue (without time travel). They could perhaps put it in fast forward mode, showing settlements slowly establish themselves and whatnot, but things like having the first mission be "gather materials for the makeshift settlements" would have been neat. Slowly discovering new areas of Pulse and all that. Eventually discovering life halfway through, having people mysteriously disappear and having the main goal to be something like stopping the fal'Cie from having the ability to turn people into l'Cie or Cie'th. Which would possibly involve fighting some god or something, I dunno.

[Miriel]

To be fair, any story involving time travel is destined to have so many holes.

I think it's a cop out to say that. You can have a time travel storyline and still have it make sense without gaping plot holes. You just need talent as a writer, which the team for FFXIII-2 seemed to be lacking.

[Loony BoB]

I think it's a cop out to say that. You can have a time travel storyline and still have it make sense without gaping plot holes.
I don't think you can, personally. I'm a firm believer of "If you're going to take a time travel story seriously, you're doing it wrong." Doctor Who has so many holes I don't even know where to begin, and even films like Back to the Future have plot holes galore. And I'm not talking about time travel in the sense of alternate dimensions like in Star Trek, nor am I talking about people who simply "travel" forward in time like Hope did, I'm talking "Oh, I'll just travel here, now I'll travel back to here, now I'll go to the future over here, now back to the past again here" etc. as is seen in FFXIII-2. It simply won't work. It's all just bluargh. Yuck. Bad. Don't even get me started on FFVIII and time travel/compression/etc. ¬_¬

FFXIII-2 makes no less sense than the Doctor Who series. Sometimes you just have to enjoy something for what it is and try to ignore the inevitable holes. I do agree the writing could have been better, though - I think most people agree on that. I think that SE aren't bad at writing out individual scenes and whatnot, but they aren't hot when it comes to providing a complete story. There's always something (such as this Cocoon thing) that they forget to actually elaborate on. I suppose it's not what they do put in, it's what they don't put in.

[Jessweeee♪]

On the topic of Barthandelus: Awesome boss, lame villain. I don't know. A good villain is also great of course, but I'm just a sucker for big epic boss fights like that. I think my favorite boss of all time is the final boss of Mass Effect 2. The way it's just chilling in the background unfinished but then oh shit it's just finished enough to get IN YOUR FACE AND SHOOT LASERS AT YOU OH GOD SHOOT IT IN THE EYE

[Del Murder]

I think it's a cop out to say that. You can have a time travel storyline and still have it make sense without gaping plot holes.
I don't think you can, personally. I'm a firm believer of "If you're going to take a time travel story seriously, you're doing it wrong."
Well the point is about having it make sense, not having a story that you personally enjoy. I also like time travel stories where you go back and forth (though not FFXIII-2's 'everything is a paradox' bullcrap), but that's not the only way to do it. As long as you define clear rules and stick to them, you can do time travel right.

The Time Traveler's Wife is the best example of how to do it right and still be a good story. Everything in that book happens as it happens and going back in time doesn't change it. The other method is to have alternate dimensions for each time change, which is done in Star Trek and X-Men. Some of it may be ludicrous, but it at least makes logical sense in context. It's easier to make this work in a novel or comic than in a game, though.

[Miriel]

I think it's a cop out to say that. You can have a time travel storyline and still have it make sense without gaping plot holes.
I don't think you can, personally. I'm a firm believer of "If you're going to take a time travel story seriously, you're doing it wrong."

A physicist would disagree with you: A physicist looks at The Time Traveler's Wife. - Slate Magazine (http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2009/08/timetraveling_for_dummies.html)

[Loony BoB]

I think it's a cop out to say that. You can have a time travel storyline and still have it make sense without gaping plot holes.
I don't think you can, personally. I'm a firm believer of "If you're going to take a time travel story seriously, you're doing it wrong."
Well the point is about having it make sense, not having a story that you personally enjoy. I also like time travel stories where you go back and forth (though not FFXIII-2's 'everything is a paradox' bullcrap), but that's not the only way to do it. As long as you define clear rules and stick to them, you can do time travel right.

The Time Traveler's Wife is the best example of how to do it right and still be a good story. Everything in that book happens as it happens and going back in time doesn't change it. The other method is to have alternate dimensions for each time change, which is done in Star Trek and X-Men. Some of it may be ludicrous, but it at least makes logical sense in context. It's easier to make this work in a novel or comic than in a game, though.
When it gets into alternate dimensions then it's somewhat understandable that it could work, and I think I touched on the Star Trek kind of time travel story being the kind that I'm not getting at - I'm talking about the 'fixed' dimension time travel as is seen in Doctor Who and sort of in FFXIII-2. I say 'sort of' because FFXIII-2, just to make matters even worse than they already were, allows for multiple dimensions AND fixed timelines. So there is 400 AF and 4XX AF, for example, and you can travel to both dimensions at any time and still change a fixed timeline, which is just so wrong it's cringeworthy.

I agree with you in that dimension traveling can work better in film and book form than it would in game form.

[dunk]

I know im a bit late but just too blow a hole in this, as i've just played this through, i'm sure noel states that when cocoon falls, it destroys the environment of pulse, hense the wasteland in his time. I think hope was smart enough too figure this out, and thats why he decided they needed a new floating cocoon. I think the size of pulse is highly over-estimated due too the wide land scapes it shows.

Maybe the world is flat? who knows :D

[Mirage]

Then why not safely disassemble the old cocoon and prevent the disaster? I mean, they had 500 years to do it, how hard could it be?

[krissy]

it'd probably damage the crystal pillar and hope is crushing on vanille
why else would he keep going forward in time just to see if his princess has woke up yet