Transgender beauty queen disqualified from Miss Universe pageant

[SuperMillionaire]

Miss Universe Canada disqualifies transgender beauty queen (http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/321836)

23-year-old Jenna Talackova, a transgender beauty queen, was disqualified from the Miss Universe Canada pageant because she was born a boy. The rules state that all participants have to be born female, and Talackova wasn't.

[GhandiOwnsYou]

Beauty Pageants in general disgust me, so I can't particularly say my opinion of them is worse because of this, but it does seem like a pretty lame qualifier. Frankly, if you can be born with a penis and still manage to be judged as the prettiest princess out of the field, then I'd say more power to you. Really though, I don't see how this is any different than saying a woman dressed as a woman can't compete in a drag show. Contests are allowed to set limitations, and considering these things are superficial in the first place I wouldn't really expect any less from them. It's the promoter's right to set the rules, and the contestants are expected to abide by them. I wouldn't expect the WNBA to allow Kobe in if he decided to have a sex change either.

[Chris]

The Miss Universe pageant should be disqualified from the universe.

[krissy]

implants hair extensions and eyelash plugs and lipo and botox are all right

but that ONE STRAY Y CHROMOSOME oh boy we got ourselves a problem

[Mirage]

I think a female to male transgender should apply, just to make a point.

[Slothy]

I think a female to male transgender should apply, just to make a point.

I hate beauty pageants so that would be awesome.

[Hollycat]

Honestly I find the idea that trannies can look that good very scary. Its scary thinking that the surgery has gotten so good that I could have slept with a tranny and not even known it.

[Raistlin]

Honestly I find the idea that trannies can look that good very scary. Its scary thinking that the surgery has gotten so good that I could have slept with a tranny and not even known it.

So fucking what? That is a very immature and bigoted attitude. I don't see any reason to view transgendered people who've had surgery as anything other than the sex they consider themselves (and physically are in all areas but DNA).

In b4 "lol yeah right hc sleeping with a girl"

[Hollycat]

So you are saying if I introduced you to a hot girl and she told you she was actually a man, you would sleep with her?

[Rantz]

... Maybe if someone else introduced me to her.

[Madame Adequate]

So you are saying if I introduced you to a hot girl and she told you she was actually a man, you would sleep with her?

Maybe, maybe not, but I wouldn't base my judgment on something as silly as being MtF.

[NorthernChaosGod]

So you are saying if I introduced you to a hot girl and she told you she was actually a man, you would sleep with her?

Is she a man or a woman? Male to female transgendered is not a man in drag, Hypo.

That said, if I wanted to fuck her before finding out she was born a man, I don't see why I still shouldn't go along with it.

As for the actual topic, it it's in the rules, it's in the rules. Beauty pageants are retarded anyway.

[GhandiOwnsYou]

Bigotted or not, I could not sleep with a woman that wasn't sporting manufacturers original equipment. I got no problem with it, you do what you want with your life and it's not my business. It is my business where my junk goes adventuring, so I can quite firmly say thats it's not for me.

[Peegee]

I'm sorry why are people arguing over subjective preference? If you don't want to have sex with a MtF then don't

The rules say you have to be born a female. He wasn't born female. ipso fatso he is disqualified.

[DMKA]

I think a female to male transgender should apply, just to make a point.
I couldn't care less about this controversy, but I think this would be hilarious and I want someone to do it right away.

I found this story in the side column of that site far more interesting though:

Woman with two vaginas: 'I lost my virginity twice' (http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/318700)

[jenovajunkie]

PG is right, it's in the rules. She ( I assume that's the individuals preference over "He") can complain and bitch all she wants, but it's clearly stated. I am sorry for her, but they have to enforce their rules. A matter that can be fought is when the rules where created, and if the pageant really is diverse, shouldn't they consider revising them in the future.

She is beautiful otherwise.

[Phoenix Rising]

Honestly I find the idea that trannies can look that good very scary. Its scary thinking that the surgery has gotten so good that I could have slept with a tranny and not even known it.

So smurfing what? That is a very immature and bigoted attitude.

Not really, who is the real bigot? Someone stating a sexual preference that you disagree with (HypoCactaur), or the man who is criticizing someone for having a different sexual preference (Raistlin)?

[GhandiOwnsYou]

Honestly I find the idea that trannies can look that good very scary. Its scary thinking that the surgery has gotten so good that I could have slept with a tranny and not even known it.

So smurfing what? That is a very immature and bigoted attitude.

Not really, who is the real bigot? Someone stating a sexual preference that you disagree with (HypoCactaur), or the man who is criticizing someone for having a different sexual preference (Raistlin)?

Well played.

[jenovajunkie]

Honestly I find the idea that trannies can look that good very scary. Its scary thinking that the surgery has gotten so good that I could have slept with a tranny and not even known it.

So smurfing what? That is a very immature and bigoted attitude.

Not really, who is the real bigot? Someone stating a sexual preference that you disagree with (HypoCactaur), or the man who is criticizing someone for having a different sexual preference (Raistlin)?
Well clearly the hypo cactus is discriminating the fact not the person. Therefore making judgement because of the negative context of transexuals as being "gay". Well I don't know if that made sense. But the hyper cactus clearly is at fault. Raistlin didn't say he was bigoted because of his sexual preference, but because of how he addressed the issue.
Look;
[1] he said trannies, tranny = negative social abbreviation
[2] he said that they can look good can be scary = wtf why? they are people too.
[3] " I could have slept with a tranny and not even known it" = clearly he is implying the fact that they were born a male(or female I don't know really) makes it "bad"

I know I'm taking this too far, but this people have REAL issues. It's not like you're sleeping with a man, with transgendered, the only thing that is wrong is that they were born with the wrong part. But there CAN be social heritability as well. Like a vicious break up, ect.

But mental illnesses are a touchy area, sorry.

I see that you just recently joined, let me be one of the very many tho say welcome.

[Raistlin]

Honestly I find the idea that trannies can look that good very scary. Its scary thinking that the surgery has gotten so good that I could have slept with a tranny and not even known it.

So smurfing what? That is a very immature and bigoted attitude.

Not really, who is the real bigot? Someone stating a sexual preference that you disagree with (HypoCactaur), or the man who is criticizing someone for having a different sexual preference (Raistlin)?

Did you actually read the above posts? HC didn't state a simple sexual preference, but instead stated that good-looking transsexuals are "scary" and that he would be horrified he might have touched one without knowing it. That goes well beyond a preference to transphobia -- just like there's a difference between heterosexuality (preference) and homophobia (bigotry).

Emotional/pleasurable reactions cannot be controlled (and thus cannot be good or bad), but the conclusions we draw from them can be. A knee-jerk distaste from the thought of a transsexual is one thing, but saying how scary they are is another.

Interesting question: is there any meaningful distinction between a transsexual-female (a trans who had surgery to be fully female) and a female with breast implants or all sorts of other cosmetic surgery? I can't think of one.

Interesting question 2: is there any meaningful distinction between "trans-females are gross; I would never sleep with one" and "black/white/Asian women are gross; I would never sleep with one"? If anything, I would argue that the latter is a bit more justifiable (though not very reasonable), as at least there is some obvious physical distinction (skin color) and aesthetics is an obvious part of sexual desire.

[Hollycat]

The fact is, a transsexual is a man. they may resemble a woman, but however far science has come it hasn't gone far enough to change your twenty third chromosome all throughout your body. So, despite the vagina, they are still a man, which means sexual contact is tantamount to having slept with a man. I have no problem with transsexuals, I just wish there was some way to know beforehand, (although I doubt they look exactly right in the genitals, so that might be a clue) because I have no desire for intercourse of a homosexual variety. They are still people, they still should have all their rights, but to be honest, it feels like they are lying to the world and could be (and are) tricking men into having unitentional gay sex. If they could completely change their genetics, that may be a different thing, I don't know, and there is no point pondering it considering science can't do that yet.

The answer to both of your questions Raistlin:
Yes there is a difference. One is a man pretending to be a female, the other is a female.
And transsexuals are not a race. They may be part of a race such as the homosexual community (sorry no sexy time, but we can still be friends) but they are not a race. are you honestly this blind?

[DK]

I'd give her one.

























...what? :colbert:

[Hollycat]

To further the point Raistlin, while we may both be being shallow about this, you are basing everything off of physical looks whereas I am looking at genetics. I can't fall in love with a man, no matter how much they look like a woman. I don't know about you, but I can't have children with a man, but I can with a woman. I don't know about you, but I am not attracted to men, but I am to women.

[krissy]

pretending to be a woman

all right

what're xxy or xxx or x's pretending to be then?

i'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you on the whole 'sex with a post-op tranny is still gay sex' thing. you seems to approach it as becoming an opposite gender is just a cosmetic thing, whereas in reality it's got very little to do with the outward appearance of a person; that usually is done only to fit into a society that looks at outward appearance first. it's very possible to identify as a different gender regardless of your genetic makeup suggesting a specific gender.

raistlin isn't telling you to change your sexual orientation or anything.

you feeling cheated because the super good sex you had with that lady was based on lies (was it really?) is your problem. it's not hers. she's left her male past behind. it's not like she goes home afterward and marks another number off her list, giggling 'hehehehe another straight man GAY SEXED MWAHAHAH', you know?

most male->females i've met are actually more attracted to females than males. if you want to be scared of having gay sex, you should be more scared of having it with a very suave gay man who enjoys having sex with 'straight' boys.

[Hollycat]

You are entitled to your own views, I'm not going to argue any more

[krissy]

yeah man and i mean so are you,

i just don't want you to freak out if it happens one day, cause it's not really that big a deal imo. i'd be more worried if you had sex with someone who didn't tell you they have gambling debts or std's.

edit: i mean the royal 'you'. i always ask ahead of unwrapping da condoms if there's any mafia debts that are involved here somehow.

[jenovajunkie]

WHAT... Cacti lover do you know what a transgender is like REALLY? You're really pissing me off. ITS NOT ABOUT GENETICS. Transgenders have been tested, and guess what; on fMRI the respond exactly the same as FEMALES. Think of it the way. You were born, everything in you now is the same, you like the exact same shit, you feel the same about everything, BUT THE ONLY THING MISSING IS YOUR PENIS. CAN YOU LIVE AS A WOMAN STILL?
Better example, you get into a complication during surgery, they remove your penis. In an effort to restore some means of being a social entity, you're given a dickbag. Think how it feels, if you wanted to sleep with women, but now you can't because it's homo.
Listen cacti humpper, they are not "tricking" or "lying" to the world, it's actually the other way around. And Raistlin is not blind, YOU ARE. You are not looking at genetics, you're looking at it like its "gay", dude get educated.

Go read a book, not a magazine or manga, a book about human EVERYTHING.
By the way I was drinking before hand.

[Hollycat]

Last thing I'm going to say JJ, the main point was, they weren't born female, and you can't breed with them.

Let me ask you. If I introduced you to a really hot girl and then you hit it off and as you were going to your room for some sexy time she told you she was born a he, would you go throught the act

[Madame Adequate]

The fact is, a transsexual is a man. they may resemble a woman, but however far science has come it hasn't gone far enough to change your twenty third chromosome all throughout your body. So, despite the vagina, they are still a man, which means sexual contact is tantamount to having slept with a man. I have no problem with transsexuals, I just wish there was some way to know beforehand, (although I doubt they look exactly right in the genitals, so that might be a clue) because I have no desire for intercourse of a homosexual variety. They are still people, they still should have all their rights, but to be honest, it feels like they are lying to the world and could be (and are) tricking men into having unitentional gay sex. If they could completely change their genetics, that may be a different thing, I don't know, and there is no point pondering it considering science can't do that yet.

The answer to both of your questions Raistlin:
Yes there is a difference. One is a man pretending to be a female, the other is a female.
And transsexuals are not a race. They may be part of a race such as the homosexual community (sorry no sexy time, but we can still be friends) but they are not a race. are you honestly this blind?

Ignorant_bigotry.txt

Seriously this sort of shit is not on. It is not a valid opinion, at best you are trolling (and succeeding because I am actually deeply outraged at your post) and at worst, well. All I will say is that you should probably look at some of the medical information regarding the concept of transsexuality and gender reassignment surgery because holy christ I don't think I've ever read something as fundamentally ignorant and bigoted as this post right here.

[Hollycat]

http://partneryahoo.photobucket.com/albums/zz169/JulieTF2/Ye Olde Random Folder/48102816.gif
If you want to talk to me more on this subject PM me and we can talk to your hearts content.

[Mirage]

Last thing I'm going to say JJ, the main point was, they weren't born female, and you can't breed with them.

Let me ask you. If I introduced you to a really hot girl and then you hit it off and as you were going to your room for some sexy time she told you she was born a he, would you go throught the act

If it's got tits and a vagina, sure, why not?

[NorthernChaosGod]

To further the point Raistlin, while we may both be being shallow about this, you are basing everything off of physical looks whereas I am looking at genetics. I can't fall in love with a man, no matter how much they look like a woman. I don't know about you, but I can't have children with a man, but I can with a woman. I don't know about you, but I am not attracted to men, but I am to women.

So you can't fall in love with a woman that's infertile? What a ridiculous qualification.

What's hilarious is that this "man" is easily more attractive than any girl you've been involved with.

[Pike]

*puts on Mod Hat*

Hypo if you're going to come in here with an outlandish statement you'd best be willing to back it up and discuss it rather than shut everyone else's discussion out with a "Haters Gonna Hate" image. At best you're being childish, and at worst you're giving poor Pinkie Pie a bad name.

This isn't EoEO so I'm not going to delete your post or anything, but please consider that this is a pretty serious and sensitive discussion/topic and treat it as such.

[jenovajunkie]

Cacti humpper, I think it's safe to assume that you didn't intend for your comment to get so out of hand. As you defended your statement, you tried to make it better by saying something completely different. But in the end you screwed yourself. You're uneducated in this matter, it seems, as you think transgenders are merely "boys" trying to cut off their peestick and change gender to get the other men. It's not so simple, but your comment and your EVERYTHING is immature. So is my choice of words for male genitalia.

[Hollycat]

The thing is Pike, I'm not exactly sure how to explain how it is I feel about this topic, and I have some reasons for my feelings that I just plain don't want to share with the world. I said I'd respond to any PM I got on the subject, but to avoid any more hate, I am not going to continue arguing in this thread. I'm not trying to shut out conversation, I'm just trying to say that I don't want any part of this conversation any more.

[jenovajunkie]

No one's arguing here, more along the lines of saying your point sucks. Your comment blows. And I have a feeling you are ignoring me, because it most likely was how you warded off insults from the cool kids. Listen the only reason I'm mad is because when people discriminate on groups because they're different... I get mad. Like really upset.

If you haven't read any literature on transgenders you can't possibly know anything right. You said because of the genetic disposition, alright... fair. But I said to imagine a world where everything about you was the same except you were born a woman. Your brain chemistry, your body structure, you likes/dislikes, everything the same but with breasts and a vagina. No penis. Would you be "lying" to the world by getting sex reassignment therapy? No.

This world is not so clear cut, it would be boring. We need some things to expand our perspective, to look outside rules and challenge them.

Is it appropriate to rule this person out? Since she lied, yes. But is it appropriate to re-consider the rule book? Maybe, allowing for transgendered in beauty pageants would be the socially just thing to do. But if surgery and hormone therapy alters the appearance, what so different than women entering with tons of cosmetic surgery? Then pageants become battle of the riches, and not of beauty.

[Hollycat]

Jenova Junkie, of the two of us, I definitely know more about the procedure. I wasn't ignoring you either.
I have reasons for the way I feel, and they aren't the kind that are easy to change. Now who is really being immature, you who are basically trying to force me to accept that sleeping with a transsexual is the same as sleeping with a woman, or me who simply thinks it's scary the way they can look so much like natural born women. And I'm sorry, but if you are born a man, you are a man until you die, no amount of surgery can change the way you are born. I have not changed what I have said, I just simply keep writing it in ways that aren't the way I am intending them to sound. Now for the last time, stop replying to me and asking me questions in this thread, if you want to talk we can talk via PM, otherwise leave me out of this ok?

[Ouch!]

Out of curiosity, are other contestants allowed to undergo cosmetic surgery and compete? I suppose the only way that I could make sense of this argument against transsexual contestants would be that no contestants are allowed to have any degree of body modification?

I could understand a beauty contest's aversion to any contestants who have essentially paid for their beauty and therefore disqualifying transexuals on those grounds.

Also from my limited research, this is also a contest that bans women who are married, have been married, or have every had a child. So, uh, it's not exactly an exemplar of equality to begin with, you know? Not that I'm suggesting that this excuses the recent situation, but I usually expect that outrage necessitates some level of surprise at the situation.

For the record, I am not the least bit surprised.

[Raistlin]

Jenova Junkie, of the two of us, I definitely know more about the procedure.

Yes, you are clearly a paragon of knowledge about transsexuals.


Now who is really being immature, you who are basically trying to force me to accept that sleeping with a transsexual is the same as sleeping with a woman, or me who simply thinks it's scary the way they can look so much like natural born women.

You, unquestionably. You have demonstrated nothing in this thread except immaturity, raging bigotry, and a willful refusal to even consider that your knee-jerk distaste may not be justified -- further demonstrated by your demands that people stop talking in this thread (while... posting in this thread). My jaw actually dropped a little at the part where you claimed trans-females are "tricking" men into "unintentional gay sex." That is not only transphobic, but mind-bogglingly stupid. A troll could not have made a more ridiculous statement.


And transsexuals are not a race. They may be part of a race such as the homosexual community (sorry no sexy time, but we can still be friends) but they are not a race. are you honestly this blind?

I never said they were a race; in fact, I clearly distinguished them. Read it again. I was using something called an "analogy." My point was that refusing to sleep with a certain race may arguably be more justified than refusing to sleep with transsexuals, because at least races have a physical distinction, and physical appearance is very relevant to sexual attraction.

Let's forget MtFs for the moment. What about a person born with sexual genetic mutations, e.g., with ambiguous genitalia? That person's parents elected for a surgery to make that child physically female. Based on your reasoning, she (who had never known anything else than being a woman) should be treated like a leper, and no one would want to touch her for life -- despite all the physical parts of a woman and considering herself a woman. She is then "scary" to you, because she can "pass" as an actual human being instead of being readily seen as a freak of nature. What bulltit.

Your exclusive reliance on genetics is baseless, arbitrary, and clearly done only as an excuse to justify your predetermined bigotry. You have yet to explain why that is the only thing that should determine who is male or female. Refusing to recognize someone as a woman who considers herself a woman and physically is a woman is shameful and seriously disrespectful. Physiology and self-determination (what someone considers oneself) should be all that matters.

I don't see a point in trying to reason with you further.

[jenovajunkie]

Hypo I will PM you. I'm not trying to change your view, I was and still am PISSED that you made that comment AND STILL YOU THINK IT'S ALRIGHT. Now assuming that you didn't know about the procedure was and is wrong, alright I do agree. You may know how to do it, but do you know how to get it done? Do you know what kind of person it takes to get approved IN CANADA to do it?
But I am sure you know more.

Further more convo will be PM'ed. smurf Ill attach this post first if you refuse to read this here... gawd I'm vexed.

[NorthernChaosGod]

I don't think Hypo understands the distinction between gender and sex.

[Slothy]

you are basing everything off of physical looks whereas I am looking at genetics.

I wasn't aware that penises came with an optional DNA testing adapter. Where do I mail away to get one?

Anyway, slight jest/poke at HC aside, I agree with NCG. There's a world of difference between gender and sex, and it seems as though HC isn't familiar with the distinction, or maybe is simply ignoring it. Someone can absolutely be born physically male, but in terms of personality and in every other way possible feel they are female. The surgery simply makes the outside match what they feel inside. And using genetics to determine gender is silly given how often nature screws that end of things up.

[krissy]

Jenna Talackova: Transgender beauty queen allowed to compete in Miss Universe Canada pageant | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2124309/Jenna-Talackova-Transgender-beauty-queen-allowed-compete-Miss-Universe-Canada-pageant.html)

back in da game
the most dangerous game

[Iceglow]

I could rep the tit outta a dozen posts here in this thread (which I did, and these people know why I repped their posts) and be done but I had my 2 cents when I saw this post and I still wanna add them. And guys, I'm aware my post is long lol get used to it but instead of doing a TL:DR on it I encourage you all to read it because I'm going to for the most part do my best to take this serious. It's not EoEo but I'm also not just going to troll HC for this.

EDIT: If you however don't want to read a long post and would rather see my comment about the topic to hand of Jenna Talackova then skip to the very end. But I will be very disappoint :colbert:


The fact is, a transsexual is a man. they may resemble a woman, but however far science has come it hasn't gone far enough to change your twenty third chromosome all throughout your body. So, despite the vagina, they are still a man, which means sexual contact is tantamount to having slept with a man.

Actually they're not a man, they are a transgender, let's break this down so you understand some trans (change/transfer/move) gender (male/female) if I transfer from male column on the left to the female column to the right, I become female. Oh snap! Ok so let's say I give you some credit there, yes She was born a man and had the surgery to change gender at the age of 19. So what? She is still a female now, so what if she may not be fertile (which is something else you ludicrously implied is a pre-requisite of being a woman, what are we the Krogan during the Genophage?) she has all the other organs that counts as making her a woman. For all intents and purposes she is a woman.

Is having sexual intercourse with such a transgender woman tantamount to having slept with a man? Perhaps but then let's put it this way, why the sudden homophobia? Why do you think sleeping with a man would be so bad. Is it latent homosexuality that brings this out in you? I could personally see it. You being so scared of coming out you project your homosexuality as homophobia it would explain a few things certainly.


I have no problem with transsexuals,

Ok so this is something you put as a half sentence with a comma there, frankly you should have used a full stop it's a bold statement one that your posts are not backing up. Clearly you do have a very big issue with transgender people (note I'm going to be polite here regardless of your bigoted language) clearly this fear of transgender people is seriously affecting you and clearly have given you a big problem with them. What caused it HC? Is this just another part of your latent homosexuality where you feel disgusted because you want it because for you sleeping with a man is so terrifying you kinda wish a transgender woman would sleep with you so that you could claim you've lost your virginity in the homosexual sense?


I just wish there was some way to know beforehand, (although I doubt they look exactly right in the genitals, so that might be a clue) because I have no desire for intercourse of a homosexual variety.

Ok first of all, it's called talking to someone, getting to know them before you hop in the sack with them. I'm a fine one to talk I go out to bars and clubs and I meet girls and sleep with them same night but then do I really care if I find out that the girl I met in the club last month and slept with on a one night stand was really born a man? As long as I was pitching and she was catching it in a vagina (well I'd use a condom clearly, I might be a slut but give me some credit people it's more for effect I imply she's catching it in her vagina) then frankly why should I have a problem?

I'm also going to bust your bubble from the brackets where you wish they'd look wrong downstairs, clearly you haven't seen many vaginas before. Every woman on this forum will likely have a different vagina if they all took photos of theirs and could post them without breaching the forums rules (and were of course willing to do so) then no 2 would be the same. The regulated standardized perfect vaginas you see in porn (and we all know you watch lots of this to try and convince yourself you are straight) are surgically enhanced/repaired/changed.

In fact, I've met several transgender woman post op. I also got to see one of them naked because I was openly curious when talking with her and I was polite about it too, she graciously decided to accommodate my curiosity. I can say without a doubt or hesitation her vagina looked perfect, in fact it looked better than some of the vaginas I've seen on top quality porn actresses. The only difference between her vagina and other vaginas I've seen (which I guarantee you is already more than you can ever hope to see in your lifetime) on "naturally born females" is that whilst she had all the right parts she could not naturally become wet during sexual excitement. To have sexual intercourse with a man, she has to use lubrication.

Now I know you're thinking that's your sign if you're with a woman and she breaks out the lube run a mile! I'm going to burst that bubble too. Some of the girls I've known and slept with in particular those who have had relationships with abusive spouse or those who have been subjected to rape (which sadly is a higher number of women then I'd like to say had to go through such horrible experiences) often find it hard to become naturally wet too even if they want sex with someone. Therefore they will usually have in their homes lubricant of some sort to make it easier to sleep with the men they want to sleep with. Now, there are a couple of responses that you could say to that previous sentence or statement, all of them are hurtful, insensitive and I really sincerely advise you to not utter them not so much because you'd probably get banned for doing something as stupid as labelling a rape victim as "damaged goods" so much as you're likely to end up with a large group of angry women from this forum on your back, and honestly that tit scares the crap outta me so just don't go there.

So in regards to the idea that there would be some way to tell, there really isn't unless you're going to run away from every woman who has a perfect vagina and wishes to use lubricant fluid. Though of course if she's got perfectly shaped D - DD boobs and a perfectly shaped vagina and is bringing out a bottle of lube either you're going to be turning down sex with a transgender or you're going to be missing out on the wildest, wettest, best sex of your life with a woman who could literally be a pornstar



They are still people, they still should have all their rights, but to be honest, it feels like they are lying to the world and could be (and are) tricking men into having unitentional gay sex. If they could completely change their genetics, that may be a different thing, I don't know, and there is no point pondering it considering science can't do that yet.


They should still have all their rights? How about their right to be respected by others? How about their right to be treated as normal women? You've stomped pretty clearly in this thread over both of those rights. I'd love to hear you defend this action to the rest of us.



They could be (and are) tricking men in to having unintentional gay sex.


What the smurf? Seriously dafuq did I just read? somebody please slap me right now I'm not quite believing my eyes, if I could face palm so hard I knocked the sun outta it's gavity well incinerating mercury and venus and turning earth in to a living hell and kick-starting the Martian life-cycle I would be doing this right now. I've stated already that I have met several transgender women, none of them have ever lied about it. None of them have ever tried to "trick me in to having unintentional homosexual sex" I have been offered sex by several of them, but they never tried to trick me. In fact unlike some "naturally born females" I know who I have openly stated I would never sleep with, who have later tried getting me drunk to sleep with me they have always respected the fact that no means no. One of them told me a tragic story once and it was her story. Several of the straight guys she had gotten to know in her post op life as friends had actually raped her because they figured she wasn't a real woman so it didn't count as rape, she had gone to the police about it and yet getting the police to take her seriously was because of the discriminating views of officers involved with the case towards transgender women was difficult so difficult in fact she ended up giving up and the men walked. These police officers who let her down so badly, well they were just like you. I think the people involved there are seriously despicable creatures. I'm not just talking about the raping bastards who did those horrible crimes to her, I'm talking about the police officers involved too. So why don't you wake up and get some real education here, before sprouting bulltit like the quote above because otherwise you're no better than a raping asshole or a prick of a police officer who failed to do anything to stop it.


Yes there is a difference. One is a man pretending to be a female, the other is a female.

No, one is merely born a female, the other had surgery to change to being a female. There is no men pretending to be women because there are no longer any men involved, you're getting confused with transvestites who are men who like to dress as women, many of whom are not pre-op transgenders but merely men who get a sexual buzz outta wearing womens clothing. You're just a bigot and a twat and deserve frankly a tit kicking.

EDIT: On the topic of Jenna Talackova, I actually agree with Dan and Julian I totally would hit that! She's amazingly good looking and good luck to her in the Miss Universe Canada competition. However, I feel if she does win it'll be tarnished because people will be finding it hard to vote against her as they will believe voting against her will mean they're a bigot too.

[Hollycat]

I've Think I'm starting to see why you guys are angry, so here.

I have no problems with transsexuals, I just don't want to ever have sex with one.

[NorthernChaosGod]

I almost want to say that I hope you do one day, but then that would mean that poor person was subjected to you.

unacceptable. Don't be an ass.

[Phoenix Rising]

I know what he said, I'm just saying he's entitled to his opinion. So what if he would be scared if he had slept with someone who was secretly a man (either past, present or future). I wouldn't want to find out that I slept with someone who was formerly a man either. I have nothing against those kind of people, it's their choice and I won't criticize them for it. Hell I wouldn't date a black woman, I just don't find them attractive, does that automatically make me a racist?

[DMKA]

Jenna Talackova: Transgender beauty queen allowed to compete in Miss Universe Canada pageant | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2124309/Jenna-Talackova-Transgender-beauty-queen-allowed-compete-Miss-Universe-Canada-pageant.html)

back in da game
the most dangerous game

Good for her.

[Shlup]

The line between the genders can get pretty blurry. You can turn a penis into a vagina, but you can't add the uterus. But, if you're born with a woman's brain but a man's body, you can't switch out the brain. How horrible it must be to really know you're a woman, but for other people to tell you that you're just not because science can't change your body enough for them to accept you.

If she wants to be a women, I'm not going to get in her way. If for no other reason than to not stand in the way of her happiness and well-being.

Though the real bummer here is that science hasn't learned to build a decent penis! Get on that, scientists!

[Mirage]

Apparently, your vaginas make better orgasms anyway, so what do you want one for? Pee standing up? That's overrated as well.

[Shlup]

I don't want one. I can pee standing up pretty well as it is.

[Mirage]

How long did you practice that for? I'm kinda impressed, even though I knew it was possible.

[DMKA]

Don't vaginas require all sorts of tedious maintenance though?

[Jinx]

Vaginas are like old cars. If you keep the oil changed, they'll run for a good, long time.

[Slothy]

How long did you practice that for? I'm kinda impressed, even though I knew it was possible.

I assume she just uses a bendy straw.

I really have nothing else to add, but hopefully as gender reassignment surgeries become more common they can make better penises so Shlup doesn't have to ask anymore. You know, competition, free market, insert popular conservative buzz words here, etc.

[Del Murder]

*puts on Mod Hat*

Hypo if you're going to come in here with an outlandish statement you'd best be willing to back it up and discuss it rather than shut everyone else's discussion out with a "Haters Gonna Hate" image. At best you're being childish, and at worst you're giving poor Pinkie Pie a bad name.

This isn't EoEO so I'm not going to delete your post or anything, but please consider that this is a pretty serious and sensitive discussion/topic and treat it as such.
At the same time, he did say he's willing to take the debate to pms if people want to discuss his opinion further, since it isn't the topic of this thread. He's free to share his opinion, others are free to comment on it or ignore it, and he's free to respond or ignore those comments. There's nothing here that forces him to discuss or back up his opinion, even if some consider it outlandish.

I think you guys need to lay off HC. He may have chosen a poor way to express it, but I think the gist of his opinion is that he has no desire to have relations with a woman who was born a man, even if 'she' looks exactly like a woman and has many of the physical traits of a woman. That's a perfectly reasonable preference to have. Just like it's perfectly reasonable to only want to date members of the same sex, tall people, blondes, Christians, etc. Do not judge people for their personal preferences here. At no point did he say transgenders are not allowed to exist or be involved in relationships with other people.

On the topic, I don't see why this person should have been disqualified from the competition in the first place, and I'm glad that she was allowed back in. If you don't allow post-op transgenders then you shouldn't allow girls who have gotten breast augmentation, nose jobs, or any other surgical enhancements. Paegents in general are stupid though.

[Madame Adequate]

Del he didn't say that though. He really didn't say anything remotely like "I just don't want to smurf a trans person". He literally said that he believes trans people are "tricking" men into "gay sex", which is such a disgusting viewpoint that I don't even know where to begin opposing it. He's free to possess his views, and to express them, but this sort of thing is literally - I am not exaggerating, I am not misusing the word literally - causing trans people to attempt suicide. Or to be murdered by people who felt tricked or simply offended by the trans person. I don't think it is unreasonable to demand someone making claims that have such serious repercussions back them up.

13 Myths and Misconceptions About Trans Women: Part One - Skepchick (http://skepchick.org/2012/01/13-myths-and-misconceptions-about-trans-women-part-one/)

See points one and especially four.

"Dangerous in that a great many trans women have lost their lives to sexual partners who felt they were “tricked”."

He may not have explicitly said trans people shouldn't be allowed to exist or to have relationships, but that's the very immediate and obviously-traced consequence of what he is saying.

[Hollycat]

WHOA WHOA WHOA, what the heck, no, I NEVER said they can't have relationships, and I never will, where the heck are you getting that from?

EDIT: guys, if you have something to say about me, you can say it to me, in a PM. This isn't the topic of the thread.

I'm not sure whether or not she should have been disqualified, because it was a rule, and rules are rules. Then again, rules are made to be broken.

[Del Murder]

Del he didn't say that though. He really didn't say anything remotely like "I just don't want to smurf a trans person". He literally said that he believes trans people are "tricking" men into "gay sex", which is such a disgusting viewpoint that I don't even know where to begin opposing it.
I was referring to his most recent post where he summarized his view as exactly that.

'Trick' is a tricky word and it depends on the point of view. From the point of view of the trans person, they may not see a difference between themselves and any other person of their current sex, and may not feel that information is relevant, or would cause an inappropriate reaction, so they choose not to share it with their partners. There is no 'trickery' or malicious intent there. But it is unreasonable and unfair on their end to assume that their partners would view it the same way. I personally would feel 'tricked' if I was intmate with a woman and she later told me she was born a man. There are a lot of social and psychological complexities with regards to transgenderism and it is unfair for the trans to lay those on their partner after the fact.

[Peegee]

...what is this thread about?

oh yeah.

So she's re-instated? sweet. However I don't know if she will have (as much of as before, anyway) a chance to win.

[Raistlin]

I personally would feel 'tricked' if I was intmate with a woman and she later told me she was born a man. There are a lot of social and psychological complexities with regards to transgenderism and it is unfair for the trans to lay those on their partner after the fact.

By "intimate" do you mean long-term relationship or simply casual sex? If the latter, this seems like a rationalization. There are only "social complexities" involved with transsexuals because people are idiots; just because so many people are bigots does not mean transsexuals should openly advertise their genetic history. In fact, it's exactly what keeps them in the closet about it. Who can blame them?

I still don't see why it matters. I do understand that it seems weird for people who have not been exposed to it before; it certainly seems weird to me. But, unlike so many people, I actually question that feeling and ask myself if it's justified. And it doesn't take much to realize that it's not.

As I said before, forget typical transsexuals for a bit. Think about this in the context of people born with a genetic condition so that they had ambiguous genitalia, and their parents basically chose a sex for them. Such a woman was not born a woman, and had to have surgery to make her so. Do you think it'd be reasonable to feel "tricked" if she casually slept with you without disclosing that fact? That just seems outrageously bigoted and unwarranted. And I don't see any meaningful distinction between that case and any other transsexuals. The bottom line is it shouldn't matter, but it will continue to matter such a great deal as long as people aren't called out on it.

[Jinx]

To me, it's similar to like...if I go to have a one-night stand with a guy, I'm not going to tell him how many guys I've slept with. If I go to have a relationship with him, I will.

Not 100% the same, but still.

Frankly, I feel really bad for transgendered women who are put in that position. You risk the person being mad and disgusted (even if you're upfront from the getgo.) And then, if they don't tell them, but decide to later, they risk the same reaction times 1000.

But then there are some men out there who wouldn't care at all. Me, if I found out I'd been having sex with a man who was born a woman, I really wouldn't be that bothered. It didn't bother me at the time. What I'd be bothered about was the dishonesty.


But I'm derailing the topic a bit.

As for the original topic: If it said in the rules you had to be born a woman, I can understand her being disqualified, even if I don't agree with it. I don't see it as discrimination against her, if it was stated in the rules. As someone mentioned earlier, they also disqualify women who are or have been married, and women who have had a kid. So...they aren't really open in general, are they?

[nik0tine]

I got into this thread late and I'm not reading the entire thing so sorry if what I say is redundant; I just want to fuel the conflagration further by giving my 2c.

Having a sex change does not actually change your sex. A MtF transsexual is not a female. A woman, perhaps, but not a female. They are males who have undergone cosmetic surgery and hormone treatment.


As I said before, forget typical transsexuals for a bit. Think about this in the context of people born with a genetic condition so that they had ambiguous genitalia, and their parents basically chose a sex for them. Such a woman was not born a woman, and had to have surgery to make her so.And such a woman is still not a female.

Furthermore, it's no less bigoted to be turned off by a transsexual than it is to be turned off by a fat person or an arrogant person. Sexual attraction is arbitrary and whimsical and it will (and should) stay that way. Whats bigoted is to look down on a person based on what they find physically or emotionally attractive.

[Raistlin]

Again with the arbitrary, absolutist definitions of gender (or, I suppose in nik's case, dismissing gender as irrelevant).


Furthermore, it's no less bigoted to be turned off by a transsexual than it is to be turned off by a fat person or an arrogant person.

Those examples aren't the same, as they are perceivable characteristics -- and obviously what you can see and hear plays a large part in sexual attraction. You have no way of knowing about genetics unless it's disclosed to you. It is letters on a piece of paper.

You're also missing the point. No one hear is saying that people cannot be "turned off" by the idea of a transsexual; we are criticizing the conclusions people are drawing to justify those feelings. E.g., that a trans-female is "tricking" men into unintentional gay sex, or that trans-people are gross and should advertise themselves to avoid such trickery. Feelings cannot be bigotry; acting on them can be.

[Hollycat]

I would like to clear up that whole tricking thing I said earlier. I had an uncle who had a sex change, went and got laid, and then told the person they slept with that she used to be a man.

[nik0tine]

Those examples aren't the same, as they are perceivable characteristics -- and obviously what you can see and hear plays a large part in sexual attraction. You have no way of knowing about genetics unless it's disclosed to you. It is letters on a piece of paper.I concede those examples aren't entirely comparable but what of a criminal? If a murderer is out on parole nobody will know unless he reveals it. Having committed an act like that in the past is enough to creep some people out to the extent that they might not want to have a one night stand with you. Question: Should the feelings of a potential sex partner be respected in that case?

There are people who, without question, are going to feel wierded out if they actually knew they were sleeping with a transsexual. Should those feelings be respected, even if its a one night stand?

[Iceglow]

I would like to clear up that whole tricking thing I said earlier. I had an uncle who had a sex change, went and got laid, and then told the person they slept with that she used to be a man.

So let me get this straight...

You are claiming you have an uncle who had a sex change. I'm not going to comment on whether this is true or not imho, I will take it with scepticism considering your earlier attitudes in this thread. I'm going to however treat this as legit and respectfully will call your "uncle" your "aunt" from here on out and use the feminine to refer to them too.

You are also claiming she slept with a man post op and told the person that she was originally a man after the fact and "tricked" this guy in to sleeping with her. You know this how? What were the motives behind this, was it done maliciously? Or did your "aunt" go out and meet someone who wanted to sleep with her because they found her attractive as many girls would and later ended up back at this person's place and slept with them? Did your "aunt" tell them in the manner of "btw, I really guess I ought to come clean here and be honest with you. I had a great time last night and you're fantastic but I'm not quite what I seem. I was originally born a boy and later had a sex change. I know I should have let you been aware about this before hand but we were drunk and it all moved so fast and well, I'm truly sorry if it upsets you." or did she tell them in the manner of "haha! you slept with someone who was born a guy!" your post indicates the latter but somehow if the existence of this "aunt" is proven to be true then I would believe the former more than someone doing a Nelson from the simspons impersonation. The reason I draw the conclusion that you imply she did a Nelson impersonation is simple; you use the word tricked as in to trick to deliberately mislead a person to achieve a given goal. I trick people all the time in to doing things they don't want to do and I'm rarely sorry for having done so I am far more likely to simply laugh at their impotent anger at the past having taken place to my design.

Either way, the existence of your "aunt" aside your attitude is still not exactly open minded about this. Ok sure, so you would prefer not to sleep with a woman who is transgendered. I can understand that. I have my preferences too, for example I prefer my girls to be shorter than me and to be of the petite build. However I do not automatically consider every girl over 5'10" tall gross or any girl who is not of the petite build to be completely unsmurfable. I simply prefer when it is an option to go with a girl who fits my preferences if however the girl I like in a group is not the girl I would go for aesthetically I do not let this stop me pursuing the girl I actually want to spend time with.

What I cannot get my head around is your irrational fear of transgendered women. I mean surely you can see by my previous post here as someone who has met several transgendered women and consider a few to be friends. That unless she volunteered the information you would without some serious digging have a hard time discovering these women were anything but highly attractive women. Most of the transgendered women I know have completely different names and life's to their pre-op lives. In fact one of them no longer even has contact with her family because she was outcast she moved over 300 miles away from them and now lives a life which seemingly starts aged 25 in London according to Facebook. I know plenty of people who I could say the same about who are not in her rather unique situation.

I could perhaps understand if your fear for transgendered women was not of them but rather for their safety had this "aunt" of yours been beaten seriously and hurt for having slept with a man who felt insecure about it then sure. However your fear is clearly of transgendered women not for their safety. The story you have told us in the above quote is not:

"I have an aunt who used to be a man, she once went out to a bar and met someone. When he found out after they'd slept together that she was born a man he beat her senseless. In my opinion transgender women ought to be very careful in whom they have liaisons with since not many men it seems can accept them for who they are."

no it is implying that your "Aunt" deliberately misled someone for the purpose of having sex. Which whilst despicable is actually no more despicable than the average bulltit guys will say to a girl on a night out in hopes of being invited back to hers or getting her back to theirs. "Oh you're really attractive and a great person, I'd totally love to see you again, of course I will call you" ect ect.

[Peegee]

Isn't HC the person who admitted to being a pathological liar? I call shenaningans on the uncle thing.

As for full disclosure, unless that disclosure will matter (i need to use a condom for cunnilingus cuz i has hivs) it shouldn't matter. But what defines what matters? Harm? Does it hurt to have sex with a post op mtf? I think no, but preference utilitarianism says maybe.

[Iceglow]

Isn't HC the person who admitted to being a pathological liar? I call shenaningans on the uncle thing.



hence scepticism.

[Hollycat]

Not lying this time, nor was I lying about my jaguar. And it wasn't just once, he/she does it all the time, it's like a hobby. Kind of like one of those things where you tell someone to go to a shocksite then record their reaction.

[Freya]

I find it surprising that you failed to mention it until just now HC. Seeing as how people were tearing into you earlier, it would have been something you'd have tossed in from the get go. Ergo, not believing it. :monster:

[Hollycat]

I kept saying I had personal reasons did I not? Would you not call that personal?

[Del Murder]

This is getting a bit too off the topic. While the tangent about transgenderism in society has been interesting, the sexual exploits of HC's uncle is taking it a little too out there. Let's drop that subject.

[Old Manus]

I haven't read the other pages in this thread, but

If I found out that I was in a relationship with a post-op, the main thing that would bother me is the question of whether I'm courting a girl, or a man who is just very gay. I don't know yet what I would do.

[Slothy]

If I found out that I was in a relationship with a post-op, the main thing that would bother me is the question of whether I'm courting a girl, or a man who is just very gay. I don't know yet what I would do.

I'm not sure if you're serious or not, but if you are then please find the link MILF posted earlier and read it.

[Old Manus]

Well that cleared that up. I guess I need to actually meet one of these people one time (everyone in Wales is straight apart from Gareth Thomas).

[Sum1sGruj]

I find transgenderism to be ridiculous, being an extreme vanity that never does well. A homosexual does not need to appear to be the opposite sex, in fact I find it to be an inherent contradiction.
So if one thinks critically, what really are the reasons for transgenderism? There are only two possible things:
1. A person does not like the role of their natural gender, in which has nothing to do with sexuality.
2. A person wants to trick a heterosexual person. In which case, this is deception and is driven by some irrational mindset.

This is why I do not support it, and one is definitely not 'bigoted' for being against it either. In all reality, one could even go insofar as to say that those who call others bigoted about it are being highly irresponsible. Transgenderism is clearly psychologically unhealthy and is trickery.

So I say good for them for banning him/her from the pageant. That absurdity has no place in such things unless it is a 'transgender pageant'.

[krissy]

clearly

[WildRaubtier]

I find transgenderism to be ridiculous, being an extreme vanity that never does well. A homosexual does not need to appear to be the opposite sex,
WELL ACTUALLY your view of transgenderism is incredibly flawed. You're assigning a genetic marker as the end all be all tell tale sign of gender when in fact it an individuals inherent DIRECTION that determines their gender!
in fact I find it to be an inherent contradiction.your goddamn FACE contradicted itself like seven times in this post, sucker
So if one thinks critically, what really are the reasons for transgenderism? There are only two possible things:
1. A person does not like the role of their natural gender, in which has nothing to do with sexuality.
2. A person wants to trick a heterosexual person. In which case, this is deception and is driven by some irrational mindset.I think that by narrowing down everything to only two possible scenarios, you demonstare that you're the one with the irrational mindset


This is why I do not support it, and one is definitely not 'bigoted' for being against it either.you're not a bigot, but...........
In all reality, one could even go insofar as to say that those who call others bigoted about it are being highly irresponsible. Transgenderism is clearly psychologically unhealthy and is trickery.Trickery? If it weren't for the bigots, whom you may or may not be one, no trickery would be needed! everyone could be what they felt they are, without the gender police beating them senseless (s'not cool to beat up a girl unless they're only a transgendered girl)


So I say good for them for banning him/her from the pageant. That absurdity has no place in such things unless it is a 'transgender pageant'.
Y'all can ave your own freakshow olympics amirite

[Sum1sGruj]

I find transgenderism to be ridiculous, being an extreme vanity that never does well. A homosexual does not need to appear to be the opposite sex,
WELL ACTUALLY your view of transgenderism is incredibly flawed. You're assigning a genetic marker as the end all be all tell tale sign of gender when in fact it an individuals inherent DIRECTION that determines their gender!

I'm sorry, but all that translates to me is "it's okay for a man to want breasts and a puss because other men would otherwise know they are flirting with a man".


your goddamn FACE contradicted itself like seven times in this post, sucker

That makes absolutely no sense.



So if one thinks critically, what really are the reasons for transgenderism? There are only two possible things:
1. A person does not like the role of their natural gender, in which has nothing to do with sexuality.
2. A person wants to trick a heterosexual person. In which case, this is deception and is driven by some irrational mindset.I think that by narrowing down everything to only two possible scenarios, you demonstare that you're the one with the irrational mindset

What I demonstrate is clear thinking and not being some leg propping up liberal extremities where facts don't matter.
That type of pretentious nonsense has no place in my book.


Trickery? If it weren't for the bigots, whom you may or may not be one, no trickery would be needed! everyone could be what they felt they are, without the gender police beating them senseless (s'not cool to beat up a girl unless they're only a transgendered girl)

I'm sorry, but all that translated to was "if people weren't bigoted, a man finding out they have been seeing another man would be perfectly fine".

[Peegee]

Before this thread gets closed for being way too off topic I'm going to go out of character and ask a serious question:

When you investigate MtF people who are post op, you tend to find a caricature of appearance. The OP's example might not be typical - after all 'she' is attractive enough to be miss universe canada. But usually they tend to be attractive, and they also tend to follow specific caricatures. Why?

I have a hypothesis that MtF people end up looking 'that way' because they have the stereotypical view that such attributes define what it means to be a woman. For example a bad/good example is Mr Garrison from South Park - he's just himself with fake boobies and a mutilated penis (it's even said so later) - he didn't end up looking 'hot' or even 'like a woman'

Basically I'm crying 'what the hell does 'looks like a woman' even mean?' and the only response I can see when studying MtF post op examples is that it's a stereotypical hyper exaggerated caricature - long hair, big boobs, 3/2/3 proportions...

Am I looking at too small a focus group? Are there examples of 'homely' MtFs? Or 'well you get what you pay for..and these surgeries are expensive' ?

[jenovajunkie]

Wow, you guys are still debating about this. Here; stop being an ignorant pony and go read some actually stories about transgenders. Sum1sGuru, I suppose you haven't read a single of my previous points in my previous posts.
Trickery? Really I'm sick of this... Honestly what makes you move, think, play games, solve problems, learn new things, breath ect.

Your Brain.

If your brain didn't release seratonin/dopamine to get you aroused the last time you saw a female naked, but it did for all the sweaty jocks, how would you feel?(There is more to this point, just take everything that makes you a man, imagine that all gone, then think of you enjoying everything that makes a female a female. Now incorporate social factors/influence, family factors and influence, predetermined genetic roles, so forth. Everything tries to make you a man, but it never feels good) Like your living in a prison, leading a fake life.

Sum1sGuru just stop being so closed minded, ignorant and so positive you're right. Try thinking you might be wrong and consider the alternate ideas. Then you will see, you are so fucking wrong.

[nik0tine]

Oh hey for once this isn't EoEO! :D


What I demonstrate is clear thinking and not being some leg propping up liberal extremities where facts don't matter. The only thing you've ever been able to demonstrate is poor grammar.


That type of pretentious nonsense has no place in my book.Sum1 like you shouldn't be writing books.




Why can't you allow people to do what they want with their lives and move on? Granted, I know the answer is because you are a Christian and must therefore cast the first stone at every possible opportunity, but for the sake of argument, why can't people be or act the way they want without folks like you raining on their gay parade?

Also, are you aware that your arguments generally consist of statements like "IM RITE AND UR WRONG AND IF U DISAGREE UR A LIBERAL EXTREMITY!!!!11"? For example, you've claimed that Transsexualism is "clearly psychologically unhealthy" and I might even be inclined to agree on some level, but your reasoning was... well, there was no reasoning. It just is, because you say so. Let's contrast this with our very own PG, who made the same argument in a manner that was both intelligent and respectable:


'what the hell does 'looks like a woman' even mean?' and the only response I can see when studying MtF post op examples is that it's a stereotypical hyper exaggerated caricature - long hair, big boobs, 3/2/3 proportions...And there you have it. A reasonable, thought provoking statement about why transsexualism might not be all that healthy. That's already a far cry from anything you've ever posted, but wait, there's more! PG then goes on to admit that there is a chance he could be wrong!


Am I looking at too small a focus group? Are there examples of 'homely' MtFs? Or 'well you get what you pay for..and these surgeries are expensive' ?This kind of basic humility seems to be eternally beyond you. You have to be right at all times, no matter what. If someone wishes to be arrogant, he should first at least be intelligent. I think you would benefit from taking your self esteem down a few notches.

That said, there are two things you need to know about PG. 1) He's not white and 2) He's Canadian so the odds are high that he is not circumcised. So take everything he says with a grain of salt.

[DMKA]

I can level with people who argue "born a gender, always said gender", but the people saying that transwomen are merely gay men who who live to trick straight men into sex with them...I seriously hope you're trolling. Because if you honestly think that...well lets just say you aren't exactly in a position to comment mental state and moral standing of others. :p

[Peegee]

CAN YOU FREAKING ANSWER MY QUESTION INSTEAD OF USING IT TO TROLL?

[Hollycat]

CAN YOU FREAKING ANSWER MY QUESTION INSTEAD OF USING IT TO TROLL?
no

[Peegee]

Whatever. n1k0 insulted me by saying that in essence i'm wrong. he didn't say WHY but whatever, who cares - I got my answer.

[Sum1sGruj]

Sum1sGuru just stop being so closed minded, ignorant and so positive you're right. Try thinking you might be wrong and consider the alternate ideas. Then you will see, you are so smurfing wrong.

I'm close-minded because I explore the evident reasons by which people alter their bodies to appear as the opposite sex?

I usually try to be inductive in how I debate because on the other site I'm on, there is no scapegoating on technical bias. But here, it seems to be condoned and so your arguments actually suffice for others. Sadly.

I'm not going to pull any punches here- neither one of you actually served a rebuttal to my statements. All you few have done is attack Christianity and fabricate an argument having little to do with I actually posted.

There is no looking at alternate ideas when one's own is accurate. I see some of you trying to philosophize on what 'being a woman' is and how it fits stereotypically. But why do you think people get sex changes done? If you want to labor under a delusion or argue the possible 2 percent that get them done according to what you propse, then that's all good and well, but if you bring to me I'm going to reveal your argument for what it is, which is a liberal extremist montage of bologna.

[Peegee]

btw I think most white canadians are circumcised.

[Madame Adequate]

But why do you think people get sex changes done? If you want to labor under a delusion or argue the possible 2 percent that get them done according to what you propse, then that's all good and well, but if you bring to me I'm going to reveal your argument for what it is, which is a liberal extremist montage of bologna.

Well I think it's because they are deeply unhappy with the body they inhabit, to the point where they are willing to undergo highly invasive surgery to change it into an imperfect version of the other gender, willing to deal with all the hatred and persecution that results from it, and willing to oh fuck it what is even the point you are just a nasty, spiteful, ignorant person who thinks he knows more than people actually in that situation or medical professionals with decades of training and experience, and explaining things to you isn't going to improve anything.

[krissy]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/545941_10150741583327483_502917482_9518728_1717702285_n.jpg

[Sum1sGruj]

Well I think it's because they are deeply unhappy with the body they inhabit, to the point where they are willing to undergo highly invasive surgery to change it into an imperfect version of the other gender, willing to deal with all the hatred and persecution that results from it, and willing to oh smurf it what is even the point you are just a nasty, spiteful, ignorant person who thinks he knows more than people actually in that situation or medical professionals with decades of training and experience, and explaining things to you isn't going to improve anything.

They want to be the opposite sex because they cannot hack being their natural gender. All the sensationalizing you just did is exactly why I do not care for that ultra-liberal nonsense.

Just like the typical atheist liberal, you are going to call me ignorant, nasty and spiteful because I don't condone or agree with transsexuals hiding their identity so that they can pretend to be something they aren't and live in their fantasy world, fooling others around them and getting men to think they are a female.
Which is another thing- how many men in contrast to women get a sex change?
Quite funny, isn't it? It's very demanding to be in the male world of competition, expectation, and accountability huh?

None of you have given a rebuttal to my statements, just a bunch of ad hominems and empty retort. Not that I was actually expecting anything more from bleeding liberals.

[Jinx]

Well I think it's because they are deeply unhappy with the body they inhabit, to the point where they are willing to undergo highly invasive surgery to change it into an imperfect version of the other gender, willing to deal with all the hatred and persecution that results from it, and willing to oh smurf it what is even the point you are just a nasty, spiteful, ignorant person who thinks he knows more than people actually in that situation or medical professionals with decades of training and experience, and explaining things to you isn't going to improve anything.

They want to be the opposite sex because they cannot hack being their natural gender. All the sensationalizing you just did is exactly why I do not care for that ultra-liberal nonsense.

Just like the typical atheist liberal, you are going to call me ignorant, nasty and spiteful because I don't condone or agree with transsexuals hiding their identity so that they can pretend to be something they aren't and live in their fantasy world, fooling others around them and getting men to think they are a female.
Which is another thing- how many men in contrast to women get a sex change?
Quite funny, isn't it? It's very demanding to be in the male world of competition, expectation, and accountability huh?

None of you have given a rebuttal to my statements, just a bunch of ad hominems and empty retort. Not that I was actually expecting anything more from bleeding liberals.


There are actually quite a few WtM transitions as well.

Take the idea of intercourse of the question--A man transitions to a female body because they want to be female, but never have sex with anyone. Their friends and family know, and therefore they are not 'tricking' them. Random people who see them on the street identify them as women.

Are they really harming you? Does it really affect you in any way?

[Del Murder]

Even though this isn't EoEO, that doesn't mean you are all of a sudden allowed to be insulting towards one another. Please do not call each other names, meatbags.

[Sum1sGruj]

Take the idea of intercourse of the question--A man transitions to a female body because they want to be female, but never have sex with anyone. Their friends and family know, and therefore they are not 'tricking' them. Random people who see them on the street identify them as women.

Are they really harming you? Does it really affect you in any way?

It depends on if my intuition fails in the event that they have an interest in me. Which is the point. It would be humiliating to have a straight man find out he was taking interest in another man.
But because it's so 'liberal', none of these things matter. That is why I cannot stand ultra-liberals with this nonsense. That kind of fanatical notion of society should have never been brought into a courtroom or political endeavors in the first place, let alone actually considered to be 'okay'. Transgenders are psychologically ill, and society, which is pretty much responsible for it, allows them to live in their fantasy world. If one actually had a valid interest in such people, they would be helping them to find alternate ways to happiness other then mutilating themselves to such a degree, living in a shell.

It's how I feel about a lot of things, including abortion. For example, if one had a real care for women, they would find something that didn't involve slaughtering their unborn child.
What I see is a giant hypocrisy, which is why all this liberal-bashing-the-nonliberal nonsense does not hinder me in the slightest because my eyes are open.

[Peegee]

you know, when you were a newbie and we tried to figure you out, you were pretty smart. Then I kept reading posts.

If you refuse to acknowledge a person's retort, there is no middle ground in order to continue discussion. Both sides will continue to make noise until one side ceases to contribute and conversation is ended.

protip - this isn't a liberal agenda.

Just for fun though, let me ask you:

a person is born with testicles and a uterus. They have no boobies. What sex are they? Oh wait there's no freaking answer.

Watch this video. Both of you (HC)

Alice Dreger: Is anatomy destiny? | Video on TED.com (http://www.ted.com/talks/alice_dreger_is_anatomy_destiny.html)

*smh*

[Madame Adequate]

Bro, let me tell you something. I think you got lost on the way to Stormfront.

If you think we're not taking your statements seriously, it's because your statements cannot be taken seriously. You are not putting forward a reasonable perspective, you are not saying things that can be debated - you are speaking from a position of unbelievable ignorance and you are absolutely convinced that you know more about this subject than people who are actually undergoing the procedure or the doctors who help them to do so.

But please, do tell me. How can we meet your standards of debate, oh mighty arbiter? What would, in your eyes, constitute acceptable evidence from us, given that you think everything is an "ultra-liberal" conspiracy? (Protip: Letting people do their own thing in peace isn't ultra-liberal, it's just not fascism).

[Jinx]

I think if you're going to bring up "atheist liberals" you need to look at it this way:

Jesus gave the world two commandments: Love Gode before anything, then love each other. What you're doing is hate, so don't champion your conservative views in the name of God.

Also, I think a transgendered woman wouldn't be attracted to you anways.

(For the record, is not a Christian but was raised one and knows the Bible, tyvm.)

[Slothy]

Even though this isn't EoEO, that doesn't mean you are all of a sudden allowed to be insulting towards one another. Please do not call each other names, meatbags.

This is pretty much the reason I haven't replied to Sum at all. Seeing such unbelievably ignorant comments makes my blood boil too much to be as civil as some others are managing.

Kudos to MILF and others for trying to bring some reason to this thread, even if there is no convincing this fellow.

[Del Murder]

Reason has it's price. ;)

Open up an EoEO topic if you wish to discuss this further, but I don't think it will be much use.