Did you know that they're making an Elder Scrolls MMO?

[Pike]

No?

Elder Scrolls Online announced! An MMO set in the world of Skyrim | PC Gamer (http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/05/03/elder-scrolls-online-announced-an-mmo-set-in-the-world-of-skyrim/)

Elder Scrolls Online Game Informer Details - NeoGAF (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=472749)

Well now you do!

It's much too early to tell much yet, but any initial thoughts? Personally my own interest in MMOs has yet to recover from when I got sick of WoW and quit a few years back, but who knows, maybe this is going to be crazy and blow everything out of the water. I'm not gonna hold my breath, though...

[Yeargdribble]

Here's the full magazine article leak. Photo Album - Imgur (http://imgur.com/a/fO9Ty#0)

It's going to be a steaming pile of s**t. I seriously am so livid after reading that that it'll be hard to stay within language filters. They are making the most generic, WoW clone possible. It looks like a money grab and it looks incredibly lazy. The art direction looks so bad, but that's nothing compared to reading about some of the details.

One that stuck out to me was player housing. They won't have it because it will be "too hard." It's 20 friggin' 12. FFXI had player housing 10 years ago. LotRO has some of the best player housing available in MMOs. Don't give me that BS.

How is it people haven't realized that making WoW clone, 3rd person, hotbar MMOs DOESN'T WORK?! WoW did it better so you're not going to unseat the king by making a half-assed copy. Now WoW is in decline. Do you really think now is the time to make a WoW clone with an uninteresting art style? It's been done... to death.

Just look around at all of the flash-in-the-pan MMOs. They don't make it. Aion, Rift, Star Wars... everyone gets excited about it for about 3 months and then either goes back to WoW or stops playing MMOs until the next big thing shows up on the horizon. But of course, the next thing on the horizon is always WoW clone with a handful of new features that is doomed to short-lived success and a quick trip towards failure.

I mean, Star Wars got everyone so excited, all of the press people were all jittery about it and loved it when it came out, but here in May nobody is playing it and there's already talk of server consolidation.


The MMO that's actually going to make it in a world full of WoW clone fatigue is going to be one that tries something different and doesn't end up being the same mindless Skinner box that most of us are onto by now.

TES would've been a great candidate for that. They already have a rich back story and adoring fan base, but instead they are going to take all that lore and wipe their asses with it to make a generic MMO. They have so much working for them that other MMOs don't have (namely and established lore), but they look like they are doing even less with it than most. I think the only people who are going to take the crown from Blizzard are going to be Blizzard. I expect they will be wise enough to actually move their next MMO in a new direction and then we can watch another decade of people being hopelessly addicted that that MMO while the pathetic money grab clones are made all around that new model.




I've been worried about the idea (of a TES MMO) for a long time and even more worried when I heard about the actual rumors a few months back. Sure, once upon a time I liked the idea, but then I realize that TES games work because the world centers so much on the player and their interactions with it. As I weened myself off of MMOs I realize that TES had what, after years of MMOing, I really wanted... an offline MMO. Skyrim is basically and MMO without the douchebags shouting random crap and being idiots that take you out of the game and keep you from having a good time. TES games are very immersive and it's hard to have that in an MMO.

Still, I was trying to look on the bright side. The initial bits of news I heard early today had me a little excited... but then I read the full article and I could flip a table I'm so mad. They are taking an opportunity and trashing it. Maybe the direction will change, but with an estimated release of 2013 that's unlikely. They are in for a quick grab and a bit of milking the cash cow that Skyrim has proved to be. Funny, they've spent the last two TES games catering more and more to the consoles and blown off the PC community to a large degree and now it's the PC people they will expect to play their hobbled piece of garbage MMO.

Sadly, I'm likely to at least try it even if I'm convinced it's garbage near launch... but I said that about FFXIV and stayed away from that which apparently seems like it was a good move.

[NeoCracker]

You sound surprised that the guys who couldn't even be assed to give Skyrim an ending would do something lazy. :p

That said, I think it's to early to call clone. (Kind of funny you are the one going off on this, after your defense of Dante's Inferno a while back for it's cloniness. :p)

I'm not a big enough fan of Elderscrolls to care enough to try the MMO myself, but I'm not against the Idea. I like that there is going to be another contender with WoW, and I'm glad its going in with TES's large fan base. We may have a solid contender if they can avoid being a direct rip off and offer enough new.

[Yeargdribble]

You sound surprised that the guys who couldn't even be assed to give Skyrim an ending would do something lazy. :p

That said, I think it's to early to call clone. (Kind of funny you are the one going off on this, after your defense of Dante's Inferno a while back for it's cloniness. :p)

I'm not a big enough fan of Elderscrolls to care enough to try the MMO myself, but I'm not against the Idea. I like that there is going to be another contender with WoW, and I'm glad its going in with TES's large fan base. We may have a solid contender if they can avoid being a direct rip off and offer enough new.

At least DI was trying something. There were interesting art assets and an attempt a story. They were tapping into the 3rd person action genre where there were fairly few contenders... indeed you could only really cite one major game to say they were ripping off. Now we've got games like Bayonetta that was decidedly more original within the same spectrum.

This is far less original. Zenimax may as well be trying to make a modern military shooter for all of the originality I see here.

If WoW clones were a successful venture, maybe I'd care less. I'm upset because I like TES and I hate that they are taking and obviously flopping model and flushing the IP down the toilet with that model. Copy all you want if it's going to work, but why are you copying a failing model? I'm more pissed that they are destroying the TES brand than I am that they are copying someone. The cloning of WoW is just a means to an end.

[NeoCracker]

You sound surprised that the guys who couldn't even be assed to give Skyrim an ending would do something lazy. :p

That said, I think it's to early to call clone. (Kind of funny you are the one going off on this, after your defense of Dante's Inferno a while back for it's cloniness. :p)

I'm not a big enough fan of Elderscrolls to care enough to try the MMO myself, but I'm not against the Idea. I like that there is going to be another contender with WoW, and I'm glad its going in with TES's large fan base. We may have a solid contender if they can avoid being a direct rip off and offer enough new.

At least DI was trying something. There were interesting art assets and an attempt a story. They were tapping into the 3rd person action genre where there were fairly few contenders... indeed you could only really cite one major game to say they were ripping off. Now we've got games like Bayonetta that was decidedly more original within the same spectrum.

This is far less original. Zenimax may as well be trying to make a modern military shooter for all of the originality I see here.

If WoW clones were a successful venture, maybe I'd care less. I'm upset because I like TES and I hate that they are taking and obviously flopping model and flushing the IP down the toilet with that model. Copy all you want if it's going to work, but why are you copying a failing model? I'm more pissed that they are destroying the TES brand than I am that they are copying someone. The cloning of WoW is just a means to an end.

Twas mostly a tongue in cheek comment about DI on my part in this thread, I mean hell, I put White Knight 2 into my top ten of the year, which didn't even meet my own criteria for acceptable attempts at copying things. :p

And I doubt one bad venture, if it turns out to be that, isn't going to destroy the brand. Depends on the amount of money dropped.

[Slothy]

Depends on the amount of money dropped.

Considering it's an MMO from a major developer/publisher, the answer to how much money it will cost will inevitably be a lot. Even half-assed clones can be expensive as hell to produce, often dwarfing most other genres AAA games. It's why most fail pretty quickly too. The amount of cash you need to dump into something trying to compete directly with WoW can climb to ridiculous heights very fast.

[Jinx]

The thing is, WoW was just a clone of other MMOs, from what I believe.

People don't DO anything different with MMOs, because there's nothing TO be done. They're making an MMO not as a clone of WoW, but just in the nature of MMOs.

Since you seem awfully critical, why don't you give us some of your ideas to make it different and groundbreaking, if you were a developer?



Also, I could care less about this. I've never played Elder Scrolls. I used to play WoW and Star Wars, but they're too time consuming. And I get bored with them.

[Freya]

I don't know who you're talking to, yearg, but I still know of a crap load of people playing SWToR. I know a bunch of people playing Tera, or going to. Holy hell I'm tired of hearing about tera. I can't run it cause I don't have a good enough comp but ughhh I want to play it SOOOO bad. :(

I think a TES would sell well merely because of all the fans of the Elder scrolls series. I've never been interested in that series but if it's decent then I may give it a spin. That is if i can get a good comp x.x

[NorthernChaosGod]

They should just make TES VI already and leave MMOs alone. I don't even like the idea of MMOs.

No dragons? Wtf is that.

[Yeargdribble]

The thing is, WoW was just a clone of other MMOs, from what I believe.

What you believe or what is demonstrably true. I'm not that familiar with the Everquest interface, but a little googling reveals that the original UI doesn't resemble WoW's very much and Everquest was probably the only noteworthy precursor as far as MMOs go. WoW was the first MMO to make a big showing.

However, even if WoW did use a similar interface, this is a general misunderstanding of the derogatory context in which people cite WoW clones. Sure, if you look generally at RPG history you could say everyone was stealing things all the way back to Akalabeth and then claim it was borrowing from D&D before video games and say D&D was stealing from Tolkien etc. ad nauseum.



People don't DO anything different with MMOs, because there's nothing TO be done. They're making an MMO not as a clone of WoW, but just in the nature of MMOs.


It's always easy to say this about anything until a game actually does something different and proves you wrong. There have been plenty of innovations in FPS games since the time of Doom. Deus Ex was an extremely innovative game. What if people just said that Doom was as good as the FPS could get and that RPG elements couldn't be incorporated? Hell, every FPS these days has online multiplayer and RPG elements.

Just because nobody has yet done something different doesn't mean it can't be done. At least games like Tera attempt to do something fresh with a more action based approach which is more than can be said for most MMOs that copy WoW to a T... skill trees, UI, etc.

Occasionally games can break out and do something fresh. You don't have to stay stuck on the tropes of a genre. I'm glad modern RPGs aren't all like Final Fantasy I. I'm glad all shooters aren't like Doom. I'm glad we have a huge collection of genres of games now and hybrids of various systems from various games that have made things new.

MMOs for about a decade have been notable stagnant whereas single player games have gone through a period of amazing innovation and growth by comparison. I think the problem is that everyone wants to replicate the success of WoW. Investors are afraid to give money to projects that aren't a sure thing so it's harder to get funding for an innovative MMO. This is just part of how the system is screwed up (and why we're inundated with sequels constantly). However, a company like Zenimax with a property like TES has more leverage than a built-from-scratch MMO, so they have less excuses.



Since you seem awfully critical, why don't you give us some of your ideas to make it different and groundbreaking, if you were a developer?


I suppose you've never had criticism of a movie or book? You could never say a movie sucks unless you could do it better? You can never criticize a book unless you can write one better? Could you never notice that a musician sounds terrible without being a master of their instrument?

Making criticism doesn't mean I have to be better at their craft than them. However, I would hope that they could be a little more clear-headed and realize that jumping onto the sinking ship that is the WoW model is a bad idea. Considering the general outrage across all parts of the internet about how terrible the TES MMO looks, I'd say a lot of people agree.

And you know what? That matters. We, the players, are the ones that matter because we vote with our wallets. I see a lot of wallet voters out there throwing up their hands in disgust.

So, if I were a developer, I'd probably try to be in touch enough to not make this game, but developers probably aren't even making the calls. Publishers probably made this happen. Zenimax is the parent company of Bethesda. They see money in the franchise, especially with Skyrim and the hype leading up to it. They probably figured now was a better time than ever to really cash in on it, but those publishers only see the dollars that WoW makes and assumes their IP will work well in that model. They aren't tuned into what gamers are sick and tired of. So the parent company probably pushed it onto one of the smaller groups and said, "you're going to make us and MMO to make us money. It needs to be out by 2013. GO!"





Also, I could care less about this. I've never played Elder Scrolls. I used to play WoW and Star Wars, but they're too time consuming. And I get bored with them.

You couldn't care less. To say you could implies that you give even a little crap, which your context betrays as being untrue.



@Uncle Big Hands

I also don't think it will sink the brand. A different studio is working on the MMO, so it will probably just hurt that studio and luckily it's set far enough in the past (2E) that it won't affect the forward motion of the single-player series.

Like Vivi said, it will cost a buttload of money. It will probably lead to that particular studio getting closed or at least dissolved into other studios. It will also leave a dirty mark on the brand, but won't destroy it. At least they didn't call it TES VI and pull the crap that Squeenix did with FFXIV... forever making sure that everyone remembers a blight on a numbered series. If TES:O tanks it will fade into relative obscurity like the Virtual Boy while people focus on the relative successes of the brand moving forward.

[Yeargdribble]

I don't know who you're talking to, yearg, but I still know of a crap load of people playing SWToR.

I'm just talking numbers. The few anecdotes come from people my wife players WoW with. They pretty much all came back. Also, gaming journalists who were verbally masturbating furiously over TOR when it first came out... but they call got tired of it.

Also, server consolidation is always the first sign of the downhill trend of an MMO. If the game's not even 6 months old and it's looking at server consolidation, that's a major problem.


I know a bunch of people playing Tera, or going to. Holy hell I'm tired of hearing about tera. I can't run it cause I don't have a good enough comp but ughhh I want to play it SOOOO bad. :(

Yeah, Tera is certainly the new hotness and it is at least trying to do something different with more action based combat. I was excited about it about 3 or 4 years ago before it was a twinkle in most people's eye, but, like Diablo III, I started caring less as I'd been hyped for too long. It might work out, but for how long?


I think a TES would sell well merely because of all the fans of the Elder scrolls series. I've never been interested in that series but if it's decent then I may give it a spin. That is if i can get a good comp x.x

Will it work out and sell well initially? No doubt. None. It will succeed at least as well if not better than TOR initially, but an MMO needs legs and that's the problem. Virtually none of the MMOS coming out any more have legs. People get excited for maybe 6 months max, they decline, consolidate, a few hardcores stick around and eventually the MMO goes F2P. Look to Aion and Rift. That's where TOR is going and on the surface Tera looks like a mix between Aion and WoW. To someone who is already MMO fatigued it starts to look like a pass.

MMOs appeal to the MMO crowd. WoW appealed to damn near everyone. I mean they got to nearly 12 million subscriptions... that's ridiculous. But I guess MMOs these days are okay with a middling success. Make enough to cover expenses plus a little more. String players along enough to get a core core few 100k invested and then churn out mediocre content to keep them content. I'm tired of seeing the pattern.


EDIT:
@NorthernChaosGod
At least they have the integrity to keep the lore.

[Jinx]

Yes, I've had criticisms of games, books, movies, and music.


But I usually say what I didn't like, and what I would've changed.

[NeoCracker]

Unrelated note, I would love it if the next Elder Scrolls was fighting to get the Kahjit Homeland back. After reading teh book in SKyrim that the Kahjit wrote to help their allies understand who they are, they are my favorite people of Skyrim.

[Freya]

You picked apart her grammar? Really?

The only reason WoW has such a hold on the market is because it was the first to really grab a hold on it. It has the expansions, it has the background. That is the ONLY reason. In fact, people are getting bored with it. Just last Nov, they reported losing over a million subscribers. I haven't looked lately but I'm sure there are far more. I was a hardcore WoWer from 05-09. Even went to blizzcon in 08. So if you want to throw in people who've played (your wife) than my opinion on the matter should be just as valid.

I kinda hate the term "wow clone" or "wow killer" Any mmo that comes out is always associated with that. You're a music guy! That's like saying "Oh this new Justin Bieber song is a Beatles Killer" just because they are both music. Of course not exactly that but that's the line of thinking at least.

I don't doubt the initial surge of people will be grand but to just write it off as a WoW clone is just, in my opinion, silly.

[Araciel]

What they should do is make an up to four player co op version of a regular new-gen Elder scrolls game... it'd be just has hard to make but ten times as good.

[Yeargdribble]

You picked apart her grammar? Really?

Sorry, that particular phrase is a pet peeve of mine. It had nothing to do with her thoughts on the game. It was a separate issue. I wasn't trying to suggest that her thoughts were less valid because of a small grammatical issue. I pointed out specific reasons I disagreed with her views on that.


The only reason WoW has such a hold on the market is because it was the first to really grab a hold on it. It has the expansions, it has the background. That is the ONLY reason. In fact, people are getting bored with it. Just last Nov, they reported losing over a million subscribers. I haven't looked lately but I'm sure there are far more. I was a hardcore WoWer from 05-09. Even went to blizzcon in 08. So if you want to throw in people who've played (your wife) than my opinion on the matter should be just as valid.

You must've skimmed my dissertations up there (and I don't blame you honestly). In short, I agree with you pretty much 100% and made many of these points. WoW was first out of the gate and everyone jumped on it. They did to a good job though. Sadly, most of those who try to copy their success miss some of the subtler points.

I see nothing where I was disagreeing with you about WoW. I was disagreeing with your estimation of TOR. Whether or not you happen to know a lot of people playing it or I know a lot leaving it, server consolidation is an objective measure of the decline of an MMO. My point is that it's a new MMO and one that people were very excited about with a pre-existing lore, yet it's essentially on the decline not even 6 months in. This is just the fate of games that try to use WoW's model too closely.


I kinda hate the term "wow clone" or "wow killer" Any mmo that comes out is always associated with that. You're a music guy! That's like saying "Oh this new Justin Bieber song is a Beatles Killer" just because they are both music. Of course not exactly that but that's the line of thinking at least.

I dislike the term WoW killer because it reeks of idiotic hubris. I remember people talking about Warhammer and Age of Conan as being potential WoW killers. I remember reading in the WoW official forums about how crappy WoW was and how it was just "Waiting on Warhammer." Well, those games tanked too.

WoW clone is just a label that suggest what it is. I would NOT call FFXI a WoW clone at all. It's an MMO, but it's significantly different from WoW. Ultima Online (a pre-WoW MMO) wasn't like WoW and if a similar MMO came out now I wouldn't call it a WoW clone. Runescape is not a WoW clone. There is a difference between a game that is an MMO and a WoW clone.


I don't doubt the initial surge of people will be grand but to just write it off as a WoW clone is just, in my opinion, silly.

I guess, like everything else in my life, I'll make judgements based on evidence. When there was no information out I was cautiously optimistic. Once I read the article in full all of that went out the window. Perhaps if new screens or info show evidence contrary to my opinions, they may change.

Of course, the more I read in the community the more I'm hearing loud agreement with my opinion. People don't want a 3rd person hotkey MMO. Plenty of people are outlining, more efficiently, my thoughts.

Here's one summation from someone else that says exactly what I expect.


1. TES Online Anounced: Massive amounts of hype follows
2. Beta / Video Gameplay is shown, the hypemobile anounces that this is the MMO to end all MMO's
3. TES Online Released: A Huge amount of players purchase it alluding to its success
4. Two Months post release: Player/Subscriber numbers down more than 50%
5. One Year post release: Game is floundering like every other WoW-clone cash in attempt




What they should do is make an up to four player co op version of a regular new-gen Elder scrolls game... it'd be just has hard to make but ten times as good.

This is what I keep hearing from people who've been fans of the series. They don't want an MMO so much as they just want some light co-op. If the company was tuned in enough to the players they would've gone this direction and probably saved themselves some in the short and long run.

[NeoCracker]

On topic of 'Could care less'

Dear America... | David Mitchell's SoapBox - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw)

[NorthernChaosGod]

Wasn't there a mod to allow co-op in Skyrim? I would love to play a co-op TES scrolls game, especially if they made extra hard content for groups. :bigsmile:

[Roto13]

If you thought The Elder Scrolls was buggy before, wait until it's an MMO.

[escobert]

Once Guild Wars 2 is out who will need any other MMO? :p

[Rostum]

Anyone who doesn't like GW2? :p

Elder Scrolls MMO doesn't really interest me. I'd be happy with just online co-op styled play though.

[Quindiana Jones]

If I transferred all my energy into the single act of not caring about MMOs, in particular a TES MMO (wtf? lol), I still wouldn't be able to do so any less.

Regarding what games actually need to incorporate to restore my faith in the industry, when I become Ultimate Overlord I will make it mandatory for massive open world games to have Red Dead Free Roam style gameplay in them. The Far Crys, Just Causes, and Elder Scrollses (precious...) would be so much better with it. It flummoxes me why these ballbags still haven't added co-op. Well, not really. It's obvious, and I hate them all for it.