FFXIII director says that Squenix is done with large scale in-house productions

[Wolf Kanno]

http://www.geekosystem.com/square-enix-done-big-in-house-productions/
This is not to say they are closing their in-house dev teams, just that they are going to start outsourcing more to other companies to cut down on production times. Which is actually a bit of good news for people who need their FF fix.

[Mirage]

SO they're gonna start using more third party tools. That's good, I guess.

[Slothy]

Sounded less like using more third party tools and more like outsourcing chunks of development. Probably thing like art, sound production, etc. I don't know, we'll see if they stick with it. Several years ago they were licensing the Unreal engine hoping that would fix their issues but didn't stick with it when it wasn't quite the cure all they wanted. I will admit that I like the idea of outsourcing a bit more since it means they can get some fresh creative talent working on these games to some degree at least.

One thing I was thinking about this morning though, speaking of better tools, is why Square or another company doesn't try going down the Epic road and spend the money developing their tools and engine for licensing to Japanese developers? Granted, they'd be years behind Epic in tech, but I'd imagine they'd be able to better support Japanese devs than an American company trying to localize their engine and tools for a market they're not really a part of. Square's also one of a handful of companies with the pull and the capital to pull it off, and if you could develop an engine that could be the Unreal engine for the Japanese companies in terms of power and usability, that could be a huge boon not only to them (in terms of more revenue, better development feedback, etc.), but to other developers as well.

[Mirage]

Well, if you look at it the right way, licensing unreal engine 4 instead of developing their own new graphics engine is basically like outsourcing a large part of the graphics development.

[Slothy]

True. Have they actually licensed the new engine? Because that would be pretty awesome.

[Mirage]

Don't think so. They recently showcased their own new engine after all, which, by the looks of it, blows UE4 out of the water. Of course, we have no idea how efficient the engine will be on various hardware setups, which is what's most important, at least for consoles.

[Slothy]

That reminds me that I forgot to look at the demo's of the Luminous Engine. I've seen some still shots, but nothing in motion yet. Still, I find it hard to believe it could top UE4 after seeing not just the demo of the engine, but some of the tools behind it. But really, considering that's Epic's business first and foremost it shouldn't be a big surprise the backend looks smooth.

[ShinGundam]

@ViVi22
Think of Bravely Default for example. Bravely Default: Flying Fairy - Trailer - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNRQZAICYsI)
Square manage the project and works on game design, concept art and FMVs while outsourcing programming, assets creation, music production and scenario.

I think it is great plan as long as it provide a diverse selection of games.


One thing I was thinking about this morning though, speaking of better tools, is why Square or another company doesn't try going down the Epic road and spend the money developing their tools and engine for licensing to Japanese developers? Granted, they'd be years behind Epic in tech, but I'd imagine they'd be able to better support Japanese devs than an American company trying to localize their engine and tools for a market they're not really a part of. Square's also one of a handful of companies with the pull and the capital to pull it off, and if you could develop an engine that could be the Unreal engine for the Japanese companies in terms of power and usability, that could be a huge boon not only to them (in terms of more revenue, better development feedback, etc.), but to other developers as well.
Not sure because Japan seems to give up on console, this year is really wasteland beside your yearly releases games such as Tales,Yakuza and Gust games.

[Mirage]

That reminds me that I forgot to look at the demo's of the Luminous Engine. I've seen some still shots, but nothing in motion yet. Still, I find it hard to believe it could top UE4 after seeing not just the demo of the engine, but some of the tools behind it. But really, considering that's Epic's business first and foremost it shouldn't be a big surprise the backend looks smooth.

Even if Epic are very good at making highly flexible and scalable engines, I don't think anyone should underestimate the knowledge SE's programmers have about developing for consoles. The question is really just why they should do it if they could license an engine that is 95% as good anyway.

I personally think Luminous looks a lot better than UE4, but as I said, it also depends in efficiency. The UE4 demo ran on one GTX680, SE's engine runs realtime on current hardware too, but if I were to take a guess, probably two or three GTX680s in SLI.

[Bolivar]

Being a middle ware company has its own large list of considerations, it makes sense why Square would be hesitant. Plus when you look at it, Epic really doesn't make that many games.

I think this could be a smart move with the potential to put SE on a better track. It goes back to the large team conundrum, it's hard to get a ton of people on board with an idea that only exists in your head, it's much easier to make a game that everyone on the team is already familiar with. It's why the best RPGs this generation have been smaller scale efforts on handhelds while only a few giants are really trying to figure out how to get HD right.

I think if they had smaller groups getting the art and combat down then outsourcing the implementation we could start getting really impressive titles that also have the substance to boot.

[Slothy]

Not sure because Japan seems to give up on console, this year is really wasteland beside your yearly releases games such as Tales,Yakuza and Gust games.

That's probably a big part of it, though I think with so many Japanese developers falling behind the west in terms of technology and usability while still trying to build a new engine for almost every game, there might be a market for 3rd party engine licensing. I'm not sure any of the big developers over there could get their shit together to actually do it or take advantage of it if it were available though. Any time they try to implement western ideologies and efficiencies it seems to blow up in their face.

[Loony BoB]

That reminds me that I forgot to look at the demo's of the Luminous Engine. I've seen some still shots, but nothing in motion yet. Still, I find it hard to believe it could top UE4 after seeing not just the demo of the engine, but some of the tools behind it. But really, considering that's Epic's business first and foremost it shouldn't be a big surprise the backend looks smooth.
If you still haven't seen it after the reminder, I strongly suggest you do so. Having seen both tech demos, I'd say I was more impressed with SE's considering overall quality, although one could point to the effects in UE4's which were notable.

I don't mind having two amazing engines at once in the gaming world, though. :D

[Slothy]

If you still haven't seen it after the reminder, I strongly suggest you do so. Having seen both tech demos, I'd say I was more impressed with SE's considering overall quality, although one could point to the effects in UE4's which were notable.

I don't mind having two amazing engines at once in the gaming world, though. :D

I watched it just now actually. It looks good, but I don't know that I'd say it looks better than UE4. Honestly, it'll be hard to compare until we see them both in action with actual games. And I'll admit I'm quite a bit more impressed with UE4 right now because the demo I saw recently showing off the new graphical effects had them manipulating everything not only in real time, but from within the editing tools themselves which is pretty damn impressive. So I guess a little bit of bias is making me favour the UE4 right now as an actual working engine right now while we haven't seen anything that far along on Square's effort.

Still though, more tech is a good thing. I hope they break some cool ground in that regard because it would be nice to see Japan catching up to the rest of the world.

I do wish Square would hire some artists who could paint a decent looking texture though. Some of them were quite good in the E3 demo while others were pretty flat and plain. Their questionable texture work was one of the reasons I don't think FFXIII is half as good looking as others think it is. You can have the best tech in the world, but if you can't make proper use of it then what's the point?

[Mirage]

Actually, there is another video out there (phone-quality, sadly) where they are showing off the tools too, and making changes in real time. For example it shows that the beard of the old guy gets all the detail and individual strands through tesselation, and they can change it from straight, curly, fuzzy and even make it look like dreadlocks by just changing a few values with their user interface.

[ShinGundam]

Not sure because Japan seems to give up on console, this year is really wasteland beside your yearly releases games such as Tales,Yakuza and Gust games.

That's probably a big part of it, though I think with so many Japanese developers falling behind the west in terms of technology and usability while still trying to build a new engine for almost every game, there might be a market for 3rd party engine licensing. I'm not sure any of the big developers over there could get their tit together to actually do it or take advantage of it if it were available though. Any time they try to implement western ideologies and efficiencies it seems to blow up in their face.
That's true but the real problem in Japan isn't technological based. It is the fact they've stepped back and have adopted a low-risk, high-reward strategy with an implementation where gamers and console gaming is at major lose (low budget mobile/browser games/remaster edition).

[Slothy]

Actually, there is another video out there (phone-quality, sadly) where they are showing off the tools too, and making changes in real time. For example it shows that the beard of the old guy gets all the detail and individual strands through tesselation, and they can change it from straight, curly, fuzzy and even make it look like dreadlocks by just changing a few values with their user interface.

You see, that's the sort of video I want to see of a new engine. Call me skeptical, but anytime all I get is a "real-time trailer" I immediately stop paying attention to anything they're saying. Show me an actual game running on the engine, or show me you manipulating everything in real time. Then I'll buy that what you're showing me is viable. Honestly, when I saw the original video demonstration of UE4 I wasn't too taken with it either because you just can't tell whether that stuff is an accurate representation.


That's true but the real problem in Japan isn't technological based. It is the fact they've stepped back and have adopted a low-risk, high-reward strategy with an implementation where gamers and console gaming is at major lose (low budget mobile/browser games/remaster edition).

True that is a big chunk of their problem in the console market, but technology does tie into it. At this point many companies simply don't have the technical chops to compete with Western companies on next-gen hardware, and the ones that do often perpetuated the trap of building a new engine or every game which is stupidly expensive. Having an engine and tools largely in place for multiple games is a big cost saver making those bigger titles more financially viable. Sure you have to tailor the engine somewhat to work for the game you're making, but it's easier than writing one from scratch.

And it's quite surprising to see Square starting to go down the right path in that regard, because the development of FFXIII and its engine was honestly a disaster as far as software development goes. Seeing them demoing a new engine that seems to actually be going in the right direction just a couple of years after that whole mess is a huge leap from where they were 3 years ago.

[Loony BoB]

You see, that's the sort of video I want to see of a new engine. Call me skeptical, but anytime all I get is a "real-time trailer" I immediately stop paying attention to anything they're saying. Show me an actual game running on the engine, or show me you manipulating everything in real time. Then I'll buy that what you're showing me is viable. Honestly, when I saw the original video demonstration of UE4 I wasn't too taken with it either because you just can't tell whether that stuff is an accurate representation.
Here you go! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9xhFpuIMX4)

[ReloadPsi]

Oh good, maybe they can outsource FF to Sakaguchi and Uematsu.

[ShinGundam]

Oh good, maybe they can outsource FF to Sakaguchi and Uematsu.
Why? Mistwalker is like 4 or 6 people who are most likely project planners. Here we are talking about outsourcing portion of game or creating different assets and maps to make sure the project will meet deadlines.

Hint: Forget Sakaguchi.

[Rostum]

It probably has to do with Square Enix paying their employees triple the salary of any other company (http://andriasang.com/con1pu/salaries/). Every company outsources more than ever these days, it's cheap and the quality is just as good especially for art.

Also the demonstration of the Luminous Engine directly hooking up with Maya in real-time is absolutely amazing, I'm not sure if UE4 does it or not but at least for an artist that kind of efficient pipeline is incredibly valuable.