The Aerith effect

[maybee]

Has anybody else noticed that Aerith is only famous for being killed ? Nobody really mentions how much of a impact she made on the gaming world and Final Fantasy while she was alive. She's basically famous for being stabbed in the back by Seph.


And that's it.


Could be worse. Tifa is only famous for having giant boobs.



None of the girls are famous for the right reasons.

[Jiro]

Her death was thematically important but was unnecessary. She'd summoned Holy and at that very moment chose to screw over every single player who'd used her. Not bad.

[maybee]

Her death was thematically important but was unnecessary. She'd summoned Holy and at that very moment chose to screw over every single player who'd used her. Not bad.

So she was a Troll before Trolling became poplaur ?

Oh Aerith you little Hipster you ! :jess:

[Formalhaut]

Her death was thematically important but was unnecessary. She'd summoned Holy and at that very moment chose to screw over every single player who'd used her. Not bad.

So she was a Troll before Trolling became poplaur ?

Oh Aerith you little Hipster you ! :jess:


"Oh hey guys! I'm totally an awesome character. Look at my amazing limit breaks and magic stats!"

*Dies*

Oh damn it.

[Jinx]

I never felt she added much to the game. Her whole purpose was to die. It's apparent.

[Quindiana Jones]

Her purpose was to be a hugely overpowered White Mage. If she hadn't died, she would likely feature on many people's "Best FFVII Team" and would be known for that.

Also, in what way is having a massive impact on gamers and gaming as a whole not "the right reason"? Nobody talks about Vincent because he had no impact on the gaming world, nobody talks about Amarant for the same reason. Most characters from most FF games don't get talked about because they never affected anything. Aerith gets talked about because she did. :D

[VeloZer0]

I thought here death was part of the process necessary to summon holy. It is mentioned that holy will be summoned when a soul seeking it reaches the planet. That seems kind of like a reference to death to me. That and they all would have been f***ed if she didn't die because Holy proved useless.

[Formalhaut]

Her purpose was to be a hugely overpowered White Mage. If she hadn't died, she would likely feature on many people's "Best FFVII Team" and would be known for that.

Also, in what way is having a massive impact on gamers and gaming as a whole not "the right reason"? Nobody talks about Vincent because he had no impact on the gaming world, nobody talks about Amarant for the same reason. Most characters from most FF games don't get talked about because they never affected anything. Aerith gets talked about because she did. :D

Vincent got his own game and got a good showing in Advent Children. It's the only game I remember where the joint least important character (besides Yuffie) ends up getting more popular afterwards

[Jinx]

I dunno, man. Yuffie's pretty popular.

[Quindiana Jones]

His games, much like his character, had no impact on FF or gaming as a whole. xD

[Bolivar]

Aeris was also important to the story because of the Gold Saucer date. This was an example of real player choice in a JRPG, where over the course of a game, a player's dialogue options eventually culminated in a scene that could be quite different. It also had an impact on the romantic situation of the rest of the game. If Aeris goes on the date, the rest of Cloud and Tifa's relationship looks like that of close friends. If Tifa was on the date, it seems like much more.

That was one of the beauties of FFVII's writing. Cloud and Tifa's relationship was sufficiently ambiguous to seem differently in the player's minds depending on the choices they made up to that point.

[TrollHunter]

Her purpose was to be a hugely overpowered White Mage. If she hadn't died, she would likely feature on many people's "Best FFVII Team" and would be known for that.

Also, in what way is having a massive impact on gamers and gaming as a whole not "the right reason"? Nobody talks about Vincent because he had no impact on the gaming world, nobody talks about Amarant for the same reason. Most characters from most FF games don't get talked about because they never affected anything. Aerith gets talked about because she did. :D

Vincent got his own game and got a good showing in Advent Children. It's the only game I remember where the joint least important character (besides Yuffie) ends up getting more popular afterwards

I'm pretty sure Vincents game only made him less popular...

[Sephex]

A lot of people forget that killing the cute character was very unexpected at the time. Many times Square has said that if any character were to die had they gone the usual character death route, Barrett would have been the way to go. All that was going on was Square trying to subvert a trope, and for it's time they accomplished that with flying colors, obviously.

[Mercen-X]

Still should have been optional. Dialogue choices could have resulted in either Aeris dying or (GASP) NO ONE DYING!

Personally, I liked Vincent better for the sequels than the original.

[maybee]

I never felt she added much to the game. Her whole purpose was to die. It's apparent.

Agree. It seems like Aerith's job was to only make a emotional impact on the player and then die. She was designed to be the sweet, innocent but courageous Flower Girl that got sadly murdered. So Sephiroth could look more evil and make the player emotional and keep playing forward to CD 2.

Because nobody really mentions or raves about what impact she made while she was alive.

[Trumpet Thief]

There were deaths in the Final Fantasy series before, but I think her's had extra impact because it was ...IN 3D!

[Jiro]

Agree. It seems like Aerith's job was to only make a emotional impact on the player and then die. She was designed to be the sweet, innocent but courageous Flower Girl that got sadly murdered. So Sephiroth could look more evil and make the player emotional and keep playing forward to CD 2.

Because nobody really mentions or raves about what impact she made while she was alive.

Well what was the point of the other characters then? Aren't they all intended to be a combination of actors in a narrative and vehicles for the player's progress? What good is a character if they have no point? I'd say being there purely to make an "emotional impact on the player" is probably the single most important trait any cast member has.

[Shorty]

the fuck are you guys talking about? She's famous because she died, yes, but she puts the cause and effect into main plotline for several of the events that happen. Meets Cloud, recruits him as her bodyguard. She's one of the ancient ones and is thus sought after. She gets kidnapped, Cloud has to go after her, and so on and so forth.

I'd say she's a pretty important part of the story. It's true that you don't realize how important she was until her death, but throughout the entire story leading up to it, she's pretty significant in a subtle way.

[Mercen-X]

Cloud is already sucked into a second job for AVALANCHE long before he meets Aeris. If she hadn't been in that church, Cloud would have seen Tifa carriaged into Corneo's mansion and he would have gone in and killed everyone (just like if Corneo doesn't pick Cloud which always pissed me off 'cause it was like, WTF was the point then? I'm fighting my way through anyway), they would have gotten back to Sector 7 and the plate would have come down. Tifa would have been the one sent to get Marlene out of the bar so it only would have been Barret and Cloud fighting Reno. Without Tseng flying up to gloat, the two of them would have had more time to get out and probably could have saved Biggs and Jessie along the way... maybe. Maybe even Wedge. The plate crushing 7 is a major push for the group to seek revenge. Despite their claim to the contrary, they are a terrorist group and would be motivated by emotion. Barret would likely ask either Jessie or Wedge (once recovered) to take Marlene out of Midgar while the others fought their way up the Shinra tower to rip them a new one. They still would have learned about Sephiroth and still would have met Nanaki. They'd simply have no knowledge of Jenova or the Ancients by this point, which would mean nothing... they're no worse off. Nope. Aeris lent nothing to nothing.

[Shorty]

Why would they need to go to Shinra headquarters if Aeris wasn't taken there then? They were a terribly disorganized terrorist group hiding in the shadows who wanted to simply blow up the reactors and avoid all other conflict and had no reason to outright confront Shinra unless they were forced to do so. Aeris being kidnapped forced them to do so.

[Jiro]

I suppose revenge for crushing Sector 7 might have been a plausible explanation for them to assault Shinra HQ in this alternate timeline, but I do agree that AVALANCHE is not the type of group to go on the offensive; instead, they would have targeted other reactors and slowly tried to cause hell for Shinra.

[Wolf Kanno]

Aeris was also important to the story because of the Gold Saucer date. This was an example of real player choice in a JRPG, where over the course of a game, a player's dialogue options eventually culminated in a scene that could be quite different. It also had an impact on the romantic situation of the rest of the game. If Aeris goes on the date, the rest of Cloud and Tifa's relationship looks like that of close friends. If Tifa was on the date, it seems like much more.

Not really when the dates all end up being the same scenario of all the characters calling Cloud out on his weird behavior making them all thematically the same. Not to mention that Tifa and Cloud smurf at the end of Disk 2 kind of sealing the deal of their relationship. So it equaled little more than one arbitrary event to cater to the shippers. :roll2

[Roogle]

I wonder sometimes how different the game would be if Aerith could be saved. Would Cloud and Tifa have developed a relationship? Would Aerith still find herself attracted to Cloud knowing about his personality problems?

[Wolf Kanno]

Honestly, I still feel Cloud would have wound up with Tifa. Aerith's dialogue in the date always sounded to me like she knew Cloud wasn't who he said he was and confirmation that she only really likes him because he reminds her of Zack whom she's still holding a torch for. I'm pretty sure had she lived to see the truth about Cloud she probably would have dismissed herself from the triangle and taken up more of a "big sister" role for Cloud and Tifa much like she has in the post VII Compilation material.

[Crop]

Not to mention that Tifa and Cloud smurf at the end of Disk 2 kind of sealing the deal of their relationship

Actually that's not totally true. I think dialogue choices up to that point slightly change the scene. In one it is implied that they had sex, in the other it's implied they just talked all night.

I also think Cloud and Aeris would have hooked up if she had stayed alive. Or at least Cloud and Tifa wouldn't have.

[Wolf Kanno]

I'm afraid the player choices don't alter the scene except the player's own perspective of it, but it has been stated by the team they smurfed and even toned the scene down to make it less obvious.

[Crop]

I'm afraid the player choices don't alter the scene except the player's own perspective of it, but it has been stated by the team they smurfed and even toned the scene down to make it less obvious.

Yes it does. After the scene I believe Tifa can either say something like "were you watching us" or "were you listening to us" to the rest of the team depending on choices made previously in the game.

EDIT: Here, I found this http://clerith.heliohost.org/LowAffectionHWAnalysis.htm

The scene is actually even more different than I thought depending on choices made.

[Wolf Kanno]

Well I'll be damned. Never noticed and the game script guide I checked didn't either it seems.

[Skyblade]

Ok, so I read that collection of articles. They seem to be written by a rather die-hard Cloud/Aeris fan, rather bluntly misinterpreting and misrepresenting things. My favorite being his comments on the Ultimania interviews, where the interview specifically discusses not only the risque nature of the scene, but also that they had to tone down the original version, which is something that he quotes, but completely forgets about when it comes to his analysis.

I also find it odd that despite the talk of the various requirements for the differing versions, there are no concrete requirements listed. No specific discussion points for the revealing of the information he says is needed, nor any required affection value to reach the "High Affection" ending.

Of course, there are screenshots that don't look altered, but even that doesn't tell if this is final game code or dummied out script. I'd prefer a source a little less biased and a little more scientific, thanks.

Also, this all belongs in the love triangle thread.

[maybee]

I always assumed that the way FF VII played out that Tifa and Cloud were official but you had a choice whether to have them get along together or not if you hated the idea of them being a couple, giving the player more choice and freedom into the storyline.

But then Case and Tifa and Advent Children and I got so confused and then stopped caring and then just shipped Cloud with Zack because they have a good relationship and good chemistry.

It's like SquareEnix wanted us to become crazy insane shippers that fought for their choosen pairing so we would still remember FF VII so they most likely tease us all on and give out hints on purpose. Meh it's all marketing tactics imo.

@ Shorty

Yeah but the point is no matter what Aerith did how how much impact she put on the storyline and the characters the only thing players and fans remember her is being stabbed by Sephiroth. Aerith could of fought Sephiroth in battle and won and then be killed by a monster, people would still only remember her for her death and her dieing.

[Crop]

Ok, so I read that collection of articles. They seem to be written by a rather die-hard Cloud/Aeris fan, rather bluntly misinterpreting and misrepresenting things. My favorite being his comments on the Ultimania interviews, where the interview specifically discusses not only the risque nature of the scene, but also that they had to tone down the original version, which is something that he quotes, but completely forgets about when it comes to his analysis.

I also find it odd that despite the talk of the various requirements for the differing versions, there are no concrete requirements listed. No specific discussion points for the revealing of the information he says is needed, nor any required affection value to reach the "High Affection" ending.

Of course, there are screenshots that don't look altered, but even that doesn't tell if this is final game code or dummied out script. I'd prefer a source a little less biased and a little more scientific, thanks.

Also, this all belongs in the love triangle thread.

Whatever woman this fan wants Cloud to bed is irrelevant to the point I was making, if you want a different view all you have to do is type in the scene into google and a ton of information comes up. I chose this one because it had everything Wolf needed to know all in a handy location.

I don't understand why you think it's a fake scene? Unless you're a CloudxTifa guy and hate to think there's a possibility that they don't bump uglies.

[Skyblade]

Ok, so I read that collection of articles. They seem to be written by a rather die-hard Cloud/Aeris fan, rather bluntly misinterpreting and misrepresenting things. My favorite being his comments on the Ultimania interviews, where the interview specifically discusses not only the risque nature of the scene, but also that they had to tone down the original version, which is something that he quotes, but completely forgets about when it comes to his analysis.

I also find it odd that despite the talk of the various requirements for the differing versions, there are no concrete requirements listed. No specific discussion points for the revealing of the information he says is needed, nor any required affection value to reach the "High Affection" ending.

Of course, there are screenshots that don't look altered, but even that doesn't tell if this is final game code or dummied out script. I'd prefer a source a little less biased and a little more scientific, thanks.

Also, this all belongs in the love triangle thread.

Whatever woman this fan wants Cloud to bed is irrelevant to the point I was making, if you want a different view all you have to do is type in the scene into google and a ton of information comes up. I chose this one because it had everything Wolf needed to know all in a handy location.

I don't understand why you think it's a fake scene? Unless you're a CloudxTifa guy and hate to think there's a possibility that they don't bump uglies.

True, and I wasn't trying to denigrate your point. I just found it amusing how far the author was trying to go to split the two up even in the "high affection" version's analysis.

As to my skepticism, a scene which Wolf hasn't found in game scripts and which has no definitive "this is how you obtain it" requirements just tickles my cynical nature. Considering raising Aeris's affection higher than Tifa is neither difficult, nor uncommon, I would think that the "low affection" scene would, if anything, be more common than the "high affection" scene, which has specific conditions to fulfill if the article is to be believed. Thus, it should be more likely to be in the game scripts than the "high affection" version, making me curious as to how Wolf missed it.

As to why I don't check myself, well, I'm too lazy to do research into an issue I don't really care about. I don't disbelieve the screenshots, I'm merely skeptical of their source. And if the game gives you the choice, then good. My opinion is that pretty much any issue the game gives the player a choice in is always the player's choice. Even if, as I believe from the interview, a certain path was intended by the developers (at least, for the high affection route), when they gave you the choice, it became up to the players.

So whether Tifa and Cloud got together or not is up to the players. As such, whatever happens is canon for your story, and the argument doesn't really matter, in my mind.

[Mercen-X]

F'yal. AC is canon. Tifa and Cloud are a couple thus the canon pairing. Aerith be damned and so shall ye CxA shippers all be. Live wittit! Hachachacha!

[Jiro]

I'm not disputing that Cloud and Tifa might be a couple but they aren't the perfect couple. It's simply a matter of settling for second best because they're alive.

EDIT: I thought this was the other thread. Whoops.

[Skyblade]

Next you'll be arguing that Dirge of Cerberus is canonical.

And, yeah, this has shifted way off topic and should go in the love triangle thread.

As to the topic at hand, what else is there to talk about when discussing Aeris? She's a fairly standard character except for her death.

[Mercen-X]

Except that, as mentioned earlier, she's got some of the best white magic based limit breaks the series has ever seen. Take E. Skill, Ultima, KotR, QM, HP+, and Shield materia out of the game. Maxing out Aerith and being able to keep her would have broken the game. Thus everyone who started out on the Aerith hate train and refused to build her up before getting to know her would have been cursing themselves later on because the game would by this time be made ten times more difficult. Of course, that's a hypothetical.

[Aulayna]

Has anybody else noticed that Aerith is only famous for being killed ? Nobody really mentions how much of a impact she made on the gaming world and Final Fantasy while she was alive. She's basically famous for being stabbed in the back by Seph. And that's it. Could be worse. Tifa is only famous for having giant boobs. None of the girls are famous for the right reasons. [Without even touching on the fact that FFVII was the first one to really go mainstream in Europe etc] I'm pretty sure the reason why people remember she was killed is because of the love triangle you witness and how during the majority of Sephiroth's monologues about the Cetra and then emphasis on how she is the last surviving one and so integral to the known plot at the time (it's easy to look back in hindsight when you know how everything played out but when looking at a scene like this you really need to look at it from that specific moment in time when the audience first experienced it). So she got built up as being integral to the story with a lot of emotional investment. Then BAM she dies. Oh and she doesn't just die, she gets murdered in cold blood. That was pretty uncommon for the time in videogaming.

[Mercen-X]

Yeah, I'm sure if it had been Yuffie who got ganked, no one would have blinked much less remembered.

[maybee]

Yeah, I'm sure if it had been Yuffie who got ganked, no one would have blinked much less remembered.

No they would of cheered because of how annoying she was.

@

Aulayna

Yeah but she's not the only character to be murdered in cold blood. Look at Leo from Final Fantasy VI or would of been Final Fantasy III back then. Yes FF VII was the first Final Fantasy go mainstream, but why don't we go back and realize that Aerith was not the only one to have a tragic death ?

It's not 1997 anymore.

[Aulayna]

Aulayna

Yeah but she's not the only character to be murdered in cold blood. Look at Leo from Final Fantasy VI or would of been Final Fantasy III back then. Yes FF VII was the first Final Fantasy go mainstream, but why don't we go back and realize that Aerith was not the only one to have a tragic death ?

It's not 1997 anymore.

Because the thread is about why is Aerith's death the only thing that's widely remembered about her character (not that she's the only character - ever - to have died a tragic death)? Ergo being the first FF that went broke out of a relatively niche market it was a pretty seminal moment for a lot of first timers who up until then probably weren't used to very indepth stories.

Leo wasn't exactly setup as a love interest for the protagonist either.

Plus in a lot of advertising for the game she was pretty much the "Poster Girl."

And well, she was female.

This bucked a lot of trends at the time considering this was on the tail end of gaming where it was all about saving the Princess etc.

Yes it's not 1997 anymore but to understand why one scene had such an impact you have to look at it as if it was 1997 still.

[Skyblade]

Except that, as mentioned earlier, she's got some of the best white magic based limit breaks the series has ever seen. Take E. Skill, Ultima, KotR, QM, HP+, and Shield materia out of the game. Maxing out Aerith and being able to keep her would have broken the game. Thus everyone who started out on the Aerith hate train and refused to build her up before getting to know her would have been cursing themselves later on because the game would by this time be made ten times more difficult. Of course, that's a hypothetical.

Actually, they'd be remembered the same way all support skills in this game are: Awesome, Yet Impactical (thank the fact I'm posting from my phone that you were saved a TV Tropes link).

Most of the support abilities in this game rock. Barrier, Time, Heal... They're all really useful. Yet you never use them. Why? Because most battles take a few seconds, two turns, tops. Using support skills just drag the battles out, rather than actually improving your efficiency.

Healing Wind is basically Restore + All. A little more useful due to having Limit priority, but that's all.

Seal Evil is rarely used. While powerful, especially if Stop works, most bosses are immune, and for most enemies, a quick spell to kill them is better. Why cripple what you can kill?

Her next one (forgot the name, sorry) is another Useless Useful Spell (darn it, another missed link). Getting Esuna early is awesome, even if you can only use it every few battles. Oh, except that status ailments are rarely a problem. I mean, most enemies don't use them, and they wear off after a battle, so, again, it's easier to just kill them. The only time status ailments really cause a problem is when facing the frogs in Gongaga Forest. Oh, and Frog means you can't use limits, so too bad.

Fury Brand sounds awesome, and is one of Aeris's best limits. Great for training limits, especially. And it gives you two for the price of one! Provided you're willing to hang on to it. Because otherwise, Aeris will hit her limit while the others are halfway there, wasting the extra limit power. I suppose it's nice unleashing four limits on a boss right out of the door, but is it really that much better than three?

Pulse of Life is Healing Wind all over again. Sure, it heals fully instead of half, and it cures status ailments too. But status ailment curing is relatively pointless, and the healing is basically Cure 3 + All. A little better, but not enough to matter.

Planet Protector. Ho hum. Sure, limited invulnerability is nice, but you rarely use it. You can't heal while it's active, so all it does is buy you more time to attack. A healing spell would do much the same thing, and an actual offensive limit at that level would finish most battles. This one just gains you so little, overall.

And then we get Great Gospel. Both of her last two combined. Way more useful than Planet Protector, since it heals as well. Definitely her best. But rarely needed, and, as a final limit, difficult to spam. Heck, it gives you several turns during which none of your character's limits will advance. Powerful? Yes. Game breaking? Maybe, but no more than half the other skills in the game. Even removing your entire list, though, the game isn't nearly hard enough to make this limit have more than token functionality. I never use Shield or Quad Magic, I only use KotR and Ultima when I want to be flashy, and only use Enemy Skill for the variety. The game still isn't that hard.

And that's the thing. The game isn't hard enough, and the battles don't last long enough, to make any of the support abilities really useful. If it were, they'd all be game breakers, because there are some really powerful ones. But you can breeze through the game with only basic Materia, if you want.

She wouldn't be remembered for her limits, because they aren't actually that useful. She'd be remembered as a "nice idea", trying out a character with entirely defensive limits, but that's all.

[Mercen-X]

So then the programmers made the game easier once they decided Aerith would die. :shifty:

Back to Aerith's death. If just one more player character had died (like Barret or Tifa or Red XII), Aerith's death would not be nearly as memorable in that scenario either. It wasn't her identity but the fact that she was the only playable character in FF7 to get sashimid. Pretty much anybody who got killed by anyone in the course of the game would be remembered for being killed provided they were the only playable character in-game to die.

Come to think on it, Zack is also basically remembered for dying, once you find out who the hell he is despite him not being playable until CC.

[Roogle]

I agree with your analysis of Aerith's limit breaks. I believe they are only truly useful during challenge runs or a low level run of some kind. I don't think that the game was built difficult enough to make her truly useful; in fact, I think a lot of people avoided using her as she can be less straightforward than characters like Barret or Red XIII.

Maybe if the game was more difficult and players used her as a crutch to get past the first parts of the game, then her loss would be more profound on the player...

[Formalhaut]

I agree with your analysis of Aerith's limit breaks. I believe they are only truly useful during challenge runs or a low level run of some kind. I don't think that the game was built difficult enough to make her truly useful; in fact, I think a lot of people avoided using her as she can be less straightforward than characters like Barret or Red XIII.

Maybe if the game was more difficult and players used her as a crutch to get past the first parts of the game, then her loss would be more profound on the player...

I definitely agree, I rarely used Aerith, in fact the only time I *needed* Aerith was obtaining Beta early from the Midgar Zolom for her superior spirit stat and healing abilities. Aside that, I didn't really have much use for her.

[Arizona Lively]

I love Aerith. She should get her own action-prequel! Or a few dozen mini-games in the rerelease.

[DrAssenov]

I love Aerith. She should get her own action-prequel! Or a few dozen mini-games in the rerelease.


I'd like to vent a little about Aeris.

She was born from Dr. Gast and Ifalna, who were hiding out in Icicle Inn as refugees from Shinra. Shortly after, her dad was murdered and she was taken with her mom to be specimens of Shinra.

As a young child, she and her mother escape, but her mother dies from injuries somehow. She is then adopted.

After being considered weird and odd by others, being a lab specimen, and later beaten up by Turks and then killed by Sephiroth, SOMEHOW, she still chooses to do what is right.

Is that why everyone hates her? People have said she's dumb, stupid, too girly, useless.

Is that because she had the courage to do what was right no matter what unfortunate events happened to her? ...She was kind to everyone who needed it?
Is it because she loved her friends so much that she would leave on her own to the City of the Ancients to pray for the protection of the planet?

In reality, she's a strong girl who had to deal with a ton of drama who can still SMILE and CARE FOR PEOPLE other than herself till the day she died. Maybe her chipperness and sugary personality are just her coping mechanisms for the pain and trauma she's been dealing with her whole life. Who can say they've never hidden their feelings and pain with a big smile?

[Jiro]

She did just win Nicest Character in the FF Ciddies, so I guess people recognise her for it!

[Sephiroth]

Aerith is my most favourite female character in Final Fantasy. She is just the embodiement of everything that is good. No matter why she gets "angry" and how she shows that it is nothing compared to her pure-hearted nature.

Aerith's life is very complicated and yet she does not fear dealing with the consequences when it comes to risking everything to safe something which is more precious to her than her life. She is what ShinRa wanted Sephiroth to be (except a warrior).

Her relationship to Cloud is also not the easiest. She still loves Zack but she also wants to find "the real Cloud" since she has also fallen in love with him. Often she is joking around but actually her and Cloud's life could have been completely different with her still being alive. Cait Sith's prophecy about their future combined with "Interrupted by Fireworks" was an incredibly sad moment. Even though Tifa is they key person for Cloud to sort his memories I think in the end he and Aerith would have become a couple. Like Cloud's mother said, "he needs an older girl who cares about him".


Same goes for Aeris, they see her body shape and clothing which represents a sweet girl, while I see the personality - which is not a sweet girl. http://forums.eyesonff.com/images/eoff_smilies/tongue.gif

She is. Just because you are trying to cope with anything and go on with life and also prove that you still have not forgotten your first love but still try to go on, you are not a bad person.

[Loony BoB]

I don't like Aeris. I don't dislike Aeris because she dies. Anyone who has played the game knows her for more than just dying. They either loved her for being such a nice, sweet girl or they hated her for being such a nice, sweet girl. Or, if they're anything like me, they hated her for being a slut who waited for one guy, saw another show up and then threw herself at him like a proper teenage rebel hobag at every opportunity. She may as well have spent half the game grinding on Cloud's leg. Aeris is also known for being a white mage, I suppose.

Tifa is known for being a kickass big boobed brunette who wears clothes more suited to Aeris' personality and gets judged for her looks rather than her shy, introverted personality (which, let's face it, is really not suited to where she works or how she dresses at all). Not that I'm complaining - was it Nomura who said he designed her to be the ideal girl? Let's be blunt: There's a reason girls wear clothes like that, and that's because guys find it attractive. Guys also find girls that are hard to get attractive. Basically, Tifa is the seemingly impossible combination of sexy looks and beautiful personality. But most people don't see past the looks. Same goes for Aeris, they see her body shape and clothing which represents a sweet girl, while I see the personality - which is not a sweet girl. :p

[DrAssenov]

I don't like Aeris. I don't dislike Aeris because she dies. Anyone who has played the game knows her for more than just dying. They either loved her for being such a nice, sweet girl or they hated her for being such a nice, sweet girl. Or, if they're anything like me, they hated her for being a slut who waited for one guy, saw another show up and then threw herself at him like a proper teenage rebel hobag at every opportunity. She may as well have spent half the game grinding on Cloud's leg. Aeris is also known for being a white mage, I suppose.

Tifa is known for being a kickass big boobed brunette who wears clothes more suited to Aeris' personality and gets judged for her looks rather than her shy, introverted personality (which, let's face it, is really not suited to where she works or how she dresses at all). Not that I'm complaining - was it Nomura who said he designed her to be the ideal girl? Let's be blunt: There's a reason girls wear clothes like that, and that's because guys find it attractive. Guys also find girls that are hard to get attractive. Basically, Tifa is the seemingly impossible combination of sexy looks and beautiful personality. But most people don't see past the looks. Same goes for Aeris, they see her body shape and clothing which represents a sweet girl, while I see the personality - which is not a sweet girl. :p

I have to disagree with your comments about Aeris.

Aeris tried contacting Zack with 88 hand-written letters over 4-5 years. She never received a response. Then he died. THEN Cloud fell through the roof of her church, the same way that Zack initially did.

Falling in love with someone who reminds you of your first love from years ago doesn't make you a slut.

[Loony BoB]

Tongue in cheek. ;) But she still threw herself all over the fella faster than a rat eats cheese.

[DrAssenov]

Tongue in cheek. ;) But she still threw herself all over the fella faster than a rat eats cheese.


Hehe. She's a girl who goes after what she wants. "You gotta lock that DOWN!"
I did find it humorous at the beginning-- she was really attracted to him, and Cloud being the social expert that he is, was somewhat dry and indifferent with her (like he was with everyone else.)

[Loony BoB]

Yep. I still think she gets assumed to be this really sweet, nicey-nice girl all the time purely because she dresses conservatively. Her personality is far from a shy cutesy pie, if you get what I mean. Still, she wasn't an angry girl... just... not exactly what you'd call lacking in confidence. xD

[DrAssenov]

Yep. I still think she gets assumed to be this really sweet, nicey-nice girl all the time purely because she dresses conservatively. Her personality is far from a shy cutesy pie, if you get what I mean. Still, she wasn't an angry girl... just... not exactly what you'd call lacking in confidence. xD

I agree with the contrasts in the clothing styles. Tifa dressed *ahem* less modestly, but was much less flirty than Aeris.

Seeing how she behaved in Crisis Core-- Aeris was not really into Zack until he kept persevering. His flirtatiousness probably rubbed off on her (Zack hits on every girl he runs into.)

I don't think she was really shy at all. :D

[Skyblade]

I still feel people get Aerith's relationship with Cloud completely wrong. I don't think it was romantic or flirting really at all. She sees his facade, and wants to tear it down. She doesn't love him because she doesn't know him. She sees that he's broken, that his mind is warped and shattered, and she tries to fix it. That's why she's constantly digging at his personal life, or trying to get him into a position where she can talk to him seriously and in private.

She know's something's up with him, from very early in the game. She's constantly questioning his thoughts and making him rethink his facade. And isn't she the voice that causes him to question himself at the inns and the other rest times?

She's an Ancient. She knows that something's wrong with Cloud, and she has an urge to fix it. She also has an instinctual knowledge of the Lifestream and the afterlife, so she knows her own love is waiting for her there, and she can still go meet him.

[Jinx]

\

She know's something's up with him, from very early in the game. She's constantly questioning his thoughts and making him rethink his facade. And isn't she the voice that causes him to question himself at the inns and the other rest times?
him.

I thought that was Zack???

Honestly, except for the date, there are not events that make you think that Cloud is interested in Aeris. And even the date itself isn't romantic or anything. I think if anything, they might've had a fling, and realized they were better off as friends.

[Skyblade]

\

She know's something's up with him, from very early in the game. She's constantly questioning his thoughts and making him rethink his facade. And isn't she the voice that causes him to question himself at the inns and the other rest times?
him.

I thought that was Zack???

Honestly, except for the date, there are not events that make you think that Cloud is interested in Aeris. And even the date itself isn't romantic or anything. I think if anything, they might've had a fling, and realized they were better off as friends.

Really? I always thought it was Aeris.

But, yeah, I can't remember Cloud ever showing a romantic interest in Aeris.

[Sephiroth]

I still feel people get Aerith's relationship with Cloud completely wrong. I don't think it was romantic or flirting really at all. She sees his facade, and wants to tear it down. She doesn't love him because she doesn't know him. She sees that he's broken, that his mind is warped and shattered, and she tries to fix it. That's why she's constantly digging at his personal life, or trying to get him into a position where she can talk to him seriously and in private.

She know's something's up with him, from very early in the game. She's constantly questioning his thoughts and making him rethink his facade. And isn't she the voice that causes him to question himself at the inns and the other rest times?

She's an Ancient. She knows that something's wrong with Cloud, and she has an urge to fix it. She also has an instinctual knowledge of the Lifestream and the afterlife, so she knows her own love is waiting for her there, and she can still go meet him.

While she misses Zack, she also wants to meet the real Cloud and really is interested in him. The heart-breaking crying scene in Gongaga shows that. Cloud himself is, even though he can be very arrogant, also very shy. He wanted to meet Tifa in Nibelheim but care about her friends being around, thinking they were dumb and so tried to meet her alone and all. Aerith is way better in taking the initiative and just because she is interested in some guy first especially because he reminds him of her first love there is no reason why she shouldn't want to experience what he really is like. He was not in his "Zack swap" role all the time. His memories were just not what they should be. Nevertheless he showed some of his real Cloud characteristics all the time - his arrogance was not justified all the time, when it comes to it being based on the thought of being an ex-SOLDIER, of course. But Cloud shows very much characteristics which were really based on his normal personality and so Aerith also had a reason to like what she experienced about the real Cloud. As I have said, the prophecy was one of the saddest parts of it. And Cloud just is not the "Hey, babe, I love you" guy; his romantic feelings are shown not like normal, most of the time the actions themselves show what his feelings are about her and just a few of his lines show what he feels while Aerith is careful but knows what she is doing and similiar to Rinoa who dragged Squall to the dance floor is not afraid of taking first steps (I know that Rinoa was just around because she wanted to talk to Cid, that is not the point here).

[Skyblade]

I still feel people get Aerith's relationship with Cloud completely wrong. I don't think it was romantic or flirting really at all. She sees his facade, and wants to tear it down. She doesn't love him because she doesn't know him. She sees that he's broken, that his mind is warped and shattered, and she tries to fix it. That's why she's constantly digging at his personal life, or trying to get him into a position where she can talk to him seriously and in private.

She know's something's up with him, from very early in the game. She's constantly questioning his thoughts and making him rethink his facade. And isn't she the voice that causes him to question himself at the inns and the other rest times?

She's an Ancient. She knows that something's wrong with Cloud, and she has an urge to fix it. She also has an instinctual knowledge of the Lifestream and the afterlife, so she knows her own love is waiting for her there, and she can still go meet him.

While she misses Zack, she also wants to meet the real Cloud and really is interested in him. The heart-breaking crying scene in Gongaga shows that.

"Wants to meet him" indicates that she is not in love with him. She senses the massive delusion that he's hiding under, she knows that the Zack persona he's presenting is not the real Cloud. You don't love someone you don't know.

She's interested in the real Cloud, sure, but what sort of interest? I don't think it's romantic, because the real Cloud is a mystery to her. Part of her is just the friendly, nice, outgoing person she is, but I think most of her feelings are more motherly. She's worried about the poor child with the skinned knee (or, in this case, the shattered mind).

[Sephiroth]

"Wants to meet him" indicates that she is not in love with him. She senses the massive delusion that he's hiding under, she knows that the Zack persona he's presenting is not the real Cloud. You don't love someone you don't know.

She's interested in the real Cloud, sure, but what sort of interest? I don't think it's romantic, because the real Cloud is a mystery to her. Part of her is just the friendly, nice, outgoing person she is, but I think most of her feelings are more motherly. She's worried about the poor child with the skinned knee (or, in this case, the shattered mind).

You're missing a few steps. It is not just Hate-Not interested-Interested and Friend Zone-Romantic Interest/Love. There are many levels between them, Before you love someone there already needs to be a great interest in this person. And Aerith does have this interest, she is climbing up the ladder of the last two mentioned aspects and is not just a true friend you can always count on (which is also between the two last aspects, since "Friend Zone" does not need to mean anything about a true friendship, normally it does not when it comes to really, really important and personal issues). "I want to find/meet you." "But I'm here." "No ... what I mean ... I want to find/meet you." Aerith really is personally interested in Cloud. Of course she is a nice girl who wants to help as many people as possible but the relationship with Cloud is something completely different and all those short dialogues show it, even those you don't need to answer correctly like Cloud intending to fly around with Aerith in the Highwind and all. She is is a Cetra, but she also is a woman.
This "it is not the real Cloud" is not true. She knows Cloud, the Cloud she knows is not some other person as the Cloud you call "real". It is just him having some memories he thinks to be true and what he is confused about, meaning his consciousness and his psychological self which is tried to be awakened by his superego, by his subconsciousness and by Aerith but has the problem of himself being embarassed about his own life and the influence of Sephiroth so he displaces his true past memories.

Yes, we all know Cloud's memories are mixed with Tifa's to swap his life with Zack's and that happened in the same moment he met Tifa again because the JENOVA cells inside of him automatically used that read mind and use mimic ability without him even knowing. But just because I think of some very important aspects about my life different than they have happened, I am "not not" the real person. Do you know how many people have memories which just have not happened they way they remember? Actually we all do. And we also often do that as some defense mechanism - maybe even without noticing. Cloud's memories are just messed up more and of course that also has some great influences in his character. That does not change the fact that the Cloud you see is Cloud who just thinks he was living a life he didn't live. Take away his false SOLDIER-memories the arrogance which mostly comes from it and replaced his doubts about his own skills and everything you see that is shown is the real Cloud. Cloud did not copy any of Zack's personality. He just mixed his life memories with those about Zack. The characteristics are his own. There is much of his original personality which is shown all the time. He is just a very confused person simply because he knows that his past does not make sense and Aerith wants to see him the way he already is minus the false memories plus his real memories and the result of this confusion being gone forever so she can see him without any doubts about his own life and accepting his own life. And as mentioned, not only the Ultimania, but also the heart-breaking scene in Gongaga shows that. There is no doubt that she's really missing Zack but she also tried to continue living her life. And her asking Cait Sith about Cloud and her being a couple was not just for fun. She really wanted to know even if Cait Sith felt sorry for Tifa. Like I have said once before, Aerith had the concept of the girlfriend Cloud's mother wanted him to get. An older girlfriend which cares about him. Final Fantasy VII does have a complicated love triangle. It was intended that way. The three characters were also not intended to be the cliche-type of characters when it comes to expressing admitting their true feelings and all. Some of the events cannot even be watched without paying the full attention to experiencing the story with the key characters of the scenes like the mentioned Gongaga-scene or the longest conversation with Cloud and Tifa once Tifa has a high affection level and all. Final Fantasy VII is not blunt about feelings and that is good. Words are not the only way to express things. Axiom of Communication #4: Communication uses digital and analog modalities.

Maybe I should show you the scenes one day. The one with Gongaga is one of the lines which cannot be seen normally because of errors of Final Fantasy VII and yet it is an intended story sentence of Aerith in Gongaga. And of course there are many other lines like the one in the Temple of the Ancients and the "I ... want to find you." which does not mean Cloud himself only but also expresses her personal feelings for him and her whole behaviour when she talks to Cloud all the time. However, maybe we'll talk about that one day. Otherwise this could be a very long conversation. Which is good, by the way. I love the Cloud-Aerith-Tifa-topic in Final Fantasy VII. You can also write me an E-Mail or a PM. I will most likely notice one of those earlier since both of them are mentioned in my E-Mails and I normally am not looking around here that often as you may have noticed - maybe really 1 month in a year. And I hope I did not seem like someone showing off with some psychological words. I just use them because they are the correct words. Actually I hope you can even read what I wrote because often my sentences get too long for people.



Why has Aerith been retconned into some "sweet, pure, innocent thing" when she was in fact a grown woman with a sometimes dark sense of humor and flirtatious personality.

Aerith wasn't a smurfing warrior, but she wasn't supposed to be. She was essentially fun, feminine, friendly, and nice, but also self-reliant and even mischevious at times. She was a ordinary chick with ordinary interests who had more backbone and drive than the genetically-enhanced supersoldiers. That was her purpose. She pushed the action and often times acted as the voice of reason for the group.

This chick threatened to rip a guy's balls off. And it was smurfing hilarious. And totally in character. Why have people forgotten that? <acronym title="Final Fantasy VII">FFVII</acronym>'s characters are more and more commonly seen a pile of character archetypes, particularly with Cloud, Aerith, and Tifa, that never existed in the game's original release. It puzzles me, and further demonstrates why the Compilation is bad and panders to the character shippers and anime fans way too much. A lot of the soul and originality was lost. What made Aerith special is that she was ordinary, not weak. There is a huge smurfing difference and it irritates me that people have just reinterprated the character that way.

EDIT: She was not retconed into it. She was all that all of the time. You seem to misinterprete her. You only see one side of her character while she has both the cliche type you think she didn't have and the one you like. Same for Cloud and Tifa.

[Laddy]

Why has Aerith been retconned into some "sweet, pure, innocent thing" when she was in fact a grown woman with a sometimes dark sense of humor and flirtatious personality.

Aerith wasn't a fucking warrior, but she wasn't supposed to be. She was essentially fun, feminine, friendly, and nice, but also self-reliant and even mischevious at times. She was a ordinary chick with ordinary interests who had more backbone and drive than the genetically-enhanced supersoldiers. That was her purpose. She pushed the action and often times acted as the voice of reason for the group.

This chick threatened to rip a guy's balls off. And it was fucking hilarious. And totally in character. Why have people forgotten that? FFVII's characters are more and more commonly seen a pile of character archetypes, particularly with Cloud, Aerith, and Tifa, that never existed in the game's original release. It puzzles me, and further demonstrates why the Compilation is bad and panders to the character shippers and anime fans way too much. A lot of the soul and originality was lost. What made Aerith special is that she was ordinary, not weak. There is a huge fucking difference and it irritates me that people have just reinterprated the character that way.

[Skyblade]

I've never thought of her as "weak". Don't know anyone who has. I certainly wouldn't characterize her as "normal", though.

Actually, I think she's a bit of a split personality, even more than Cloud is. There's the Ancient part, and the human part. By which I mean, there's the part of her who just wanted to live a happy, friendly life, the cheerful, bubbly, and sometimes really mean part (ah, I love her teasing Barret). And then there's the far more serious, darker part of her that taps into the currents of the Lifestream. The part of her that listened for the death of Elmyra's husband. The part of her that senses the pain of the planet, that seeks out to heal and protect everything she can.

There are two really distinct sides of her, and I'm not sure they're fully integrated (they certainly weren't when she was a kid). The two playing off each other gives some very odd and variable interactions with Cloud. I'd never though of it this distinctly before, but it does kind of explain quite a bit...

[DrAssenov]

Why has Aerith been retconned into some "sweet, pure, innocent thing" when she was in fact a grown woman with a sometimes dark sense of humor and flirtatious personality.

...

This chick threatened to rip a guy's balls off. And it was smurfing hilarious. And totally in character. Why have people forgotten that?

I FORGOT ABOUT THAT LINE! I was like, dang, this girl is tough, XD Man, now I think she's even more awesome (if that was even possible.)