Worst Character Ever?

[Laddy]

What characters do you hate the MOST?

I despise Yuffie, Selphie, and Tidus in particular

[Red Mage Coffman]

Hmm... Well, if I must.

V: Bartz was a pansy. Well, his character portrait sure didn't do him any justice.
VII: Cait Sith is the most retarded thing in the whole series.
VIII: Squall, Zell, Irvine, Quistis, Rinoa, Ward, Kiros, Edea, Robin Cidlliams, Ultimecia, Seifer... Ya know what? EVERYONE. Besides Laguna and Selphie.
IX: Quina and Steiner. The character designs were awful and the characters themselves I hated. Quina was just... I don't even know who thought that was a good idea.
X: Everyone, but Auron, Jecht, and Yuna. Auron is a badass, Jecht, I feel sympathy for. He had to deal with Tidus, and Yuna is the rightful main character, X-2 did her NO justice.
XII: Vaan was very annoying at times. So was freaking Fran. I never liked those 2.
XIII: HOPE. Well, at first. His character grew on me though and became my favorite. Sad, huh? I didn't like Vanille, but I suppose you can guess why? Serah either. Never felt sympathy for her.

[Tigmafuzz]

Tidus and Vaan. Stupid whiny helpless little :bou::bou::bou::bou:s.


Quina was just... I don't even know who thought that was a good idea.

What. What.

[black orb]

>>> Snow..:luca:

[Shiny]

Squall at first.

Okay, I get the fact that they were smart marketing to emo anti-social teens and pre-teens, but still doesn't change the fact that he is horrible up until the point where he does change. It's bad they made him the man character though because it's hard to care about some pissy brat with daddy issues. I also don't like when stereotypes are shoved in my face with the whole goth thing and I'm an orphan-so-I-have-problems-thing.

[Gamblet]

Umaro, I don't get it... a yeti...

[Jowy]

Gordon.

I'm all overleveled and awesome and have to drag this little wuss around who doesn't even come close to pulling his weight. Just easier to drag his dead ass around for the entirety of Kashuan Keep and the Dreadnought.

[Bubba]

Callendon from FFVIII. The side-quest involving him, the terrapin and the flatulent hedgehog was smurfing stupid.

EDIT: Thinking about it... there's a chance this may have been a dream.

I'll go with Cait Sith for obvious reasons.

[Formalhaut]

Cait Sith.

[Elly]

Cait Sith cause anything that can instant KO its own party with its own attack is just bad...
Quinna cause its just an outright insult...

[Night Fury]

Cait Sith. What a fucking troll.

[Yar]

I know it's sort of unfair to say this, but the Luneth-Arc-Refia-Ingus tandem really sucked.

The names were terrible, and they just were uninspired all together. I know they were blank slates in the NES release, but damn...


I also agree with Cait Sith. I never use him and he was a dick.

[Clo]

I'm gonna throw my vote in for Tidus. OH GOD I HATE HIM SO MUCH. Like when the guy at the Besaid temple is explaining to him who the High Summoners are, and he's like, "Huh, I guess he's saying they're a bunch of old dudes I should respect or whatever."

YOU LITTLE PUNK.

[Shoeberto]

Everyone who wasn't Sazh in 13.

[maybee]

Wakka. Racist douchebag.

[Heath]

I liked Cait Sith? :(

My vote would have to go for Tidus. I almost feel that that's such an uncontroversial choice that I don't need to explain it. However, for the record, his whiney nature quickly goes stale, I can't switch him out of my party, and unlike Squall, he doesn't really change much for the better.

[Depression Moon]

There are no characters that I dislike just ones that I'm neutral to from the story perspective gameplay wise Edward the bard was nearly useless.

[maybee]

Edward the bard was nearly useless.

In the GBA version he can be a powerhouse if you give him the right harps. Poor Eddie. :cry:

[DownDiagonalLeftA]

This thread made it to 17 replies before the name Edward popped up?

[maybee]

This thread made it to 17 replies before the name Edward popped up?

Me right now.

38258

[Elly]

thats only cause Cait Sith has Edward beat, sure Edward is prety much useless in FFIV, but Cait Sith can instant KO his own party with his own attack (Limit Break: Slots / 2 Cait Sith & a Bar = Death to All), going from just useless to biggest useless troll on Gaia with the potential to make you lose anything from a few minutes to several hours of gameplay depending on how far away or long ago the last save point was, Edward never made you lose anything he just got KOd a lot and did pittiful damage on par with a mage using physical attacks...

[DownDiagonalLeftA]

thats only cause Cait Sith has Edward beat, sure Edward is prety much useless in FFIV, but Cait Sith can instant KO his own party with his own attack (Limit Break: Slots / 2 Cait Sith & a Bar = Death to All), going from just useless to biggest useless troll on Gaia with the potential to make you lose anything from a few minutes to several hours of gameplay depending on how far away or long ago the last save point was, Edward never made you lose anything he just got KOd a lot and did pittiful damage on par with a mage using physical attacks...

I dont remember having to use Cait Sith for a single part of the game though. I remember being forced to use Edward.

[Gamblet]

thats only cause Cait Sith has Edward beat, sure Edward is prety much useless in FFIV, but Cait Sith can instant KO his own party with his own attack (Limit Break: Slots / 2 Cait Sith & a Bar = Death to All), going from just useless to biggest useless troll on Gaia with the potential to make you lose anything from a few minutes to several hours of gameplay depending on how far away or long ago the last save point was, Edward never made you lose anything he just got KOd a lot and did pittiful damage on par with a mage using physical attacks...

That is very unlikely to happen unless you try to get the combination that kills all enemies. I used Cait Sith half of the game, but I got tired of the slot machines.

[VeloZer0]

Cait Sith's ability to kill your party pales in comparison to Relm's ability to cause the game to crash and erase your game saves.

[Elly]

yeah i dont recall ever being forced to use Cait Sith but he sure did force his way into the party, without the good grace to stay dead after getting the Black Materia, at least Edward stayed dead ...

[VeloZer0]

Edward stayed dead? News to me.

[Elly]

oh he didnt? ok its been so long since i played 4, i may remember wrong, ill sometimes mix memories up, lol... but i dont recall him being in the party after the Spoony Bard incident, Cait Sith gets crushed by a building and comes back all "hai gais ya miss me?" no we didnt miss you whyd you have to come back you trolling arse...

[Bahamut2000X]

The entire cast of XIII to start. Vaan from XII, Pretty much everyone from X except Rikku, Auron, Wakka, and Kimahri. Everyone from VIII. Quina, I tried to like him/her/it, but I just couldn't much in the same was as Jar Jar Binks. Though Quina did deliver one of my favorite scenes from any game ever, his marriage scene to Vivi, "I so happy right now!".

The Cait Sith hate also saddens me, as I found his character to be absolutely unique and brilliant once you discovered he was just a remote controlled robot, and that the controller was Reeve, a guy who your party literally never meets, yet joins you in your battle. I was meh about him till I realized this little fact and then from then on I was in love with the character and just how interesting it got.

[maybee]

Edward just got a broken leg. :mad:

[Skyblade]

Tellah was the only person to stay dead in FFIV, wasn't he?

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

Algus. HATED HIM!

[Del Murder]

FFII - Gordon (pansy ass)
FFIII - Arc (pansy ass)
FFIV - Edward (pansy ass)
FFV - Lenna (had to pick one, all 5 are pretty solid)
FFVI - Gau (not really into the wild boy gimmick)
FFVII - Cait Sith (he's a mog but not a cute mog)
FFVIII - Selphie (annoying)
FFIX - Freya (she's kind of just there after her initial story elements)
FFX - Tidus (annoying voice ruins it)
FFXII - Vaan (too much of a non-entity among these strong characters)
FFXIII - Snow (big burly dope)

[Gamblet]

FFVII - Cait Sith (he's a mog but not a cute mog)


Actually he is a cat.

[Forsaken Lover]

I always liked how, even if my opinion on XIII was as negative as most people's, I loved the characters everyone hated.
I would never have enjoyed that game at all without Snow, Hope and Vanille. Hated Lightning, found Feng boring, and Sazh was really overrated.

[Del Murder]

FFVII - Cait Sith (he's a mog but not a cute mog)


Actually he is a cat.
You can barely see the cat. Considering they are both robots, he's really neither.

[Gamblet]

FFVII - Cait Sith (he's a mog but not a cute mog)


Actually he is a cat.
You can barely see the cat. Considering they are both robots, he's really neither.

Cait Sith is actually the robot, the one who is controlling the robot is not.

That was confusing to write.

[Bubba]

FFVII - Cait Sith (he's a mog but not a cute mog)


Actually he is a cat.
You can barely see the cat. Considering they are both robots, he's really neither.

Cait Sith is actually the robot, the one who is controlling the robot is not.

That was confusing to write.

Cait Sith is a gestalt entity consisting of Reeve who either controls a cat who then controls a toy moogle robot... or he controls a robot with a cat sat on top... or he has equal control over both cat and toy moogle... or maybe someone is controlling Reeve who is then controlling the cat who is then controlling a toy moogle?

[Tigmafuzz]

So, Reeve is a cat.

[DownDiagonalLeftA]

Algus. HATED HIM!

The only other name this thread should have besides Edward.

[Gamblet]

So, Reeve is a cat.

I meant that the cat and the moogle are a robot as one entity. :cry:

[Skyblade]

Ramza Beoulve.

[Gamblet]

Ramza Beoulve.

Why would you say such thing? I think he is one of the best.

[Skyblade]

Ramza Beoulve.

Why would you say such thing? I think he is one of the best.

Because he's the only "hero" in the series to undergo character regression. Remember Bartz? He starts as a lone traveler without a care in the world, and grows into the hero who kills the big bad.

Ramza, however, goes from a slightly heroic beginning and winds up a lone traveler who doesn't care that he just screwed over the entire kingdom. No other FF hero leaves someone as dangerous and sociopathic as Delita in charge and just goes "oh well, not my problem anymore, I'm too busy ridin' my chocobo!".

[VeloZer0]

I don't see anywhere where it indicates that Ramza thinks Delita is sociopath. From an outside point of view there is evidence that can be argued either way, and you could have the opinion that Ramza should have thought Delita was dangerous. But I don't think you can criticize him for not acting on opinions he didn't have.

[Flaming Ice]

Probably Yuffie

[Forsaken Lover]

Wait, I've got my choice.

Everybody wants to whine about 3D FF characters like Tidus or whatever. Yeah, maybe Tidus was an irritating piece of crap but at least they were trying for something with him.

I present to you the most bland, stereotypical and awful character in FF history.

ROSA

In a game with a pretty cool cast overall, Rosa manages to be painfully generic. There is absolutely nothing memorable or interesting about her. I have no problem with the type of character she was. It's just that she did NOTHING to expand on that type of character. She was just a cheap, one-dimensional cutout.

And no, I don't care that this was "early." That doesn't excuse it. I can excuse them for the Moon reveal being a bit sloppy but there is no excuse for such horrible unoriginality.

I would say everyone from FFXIII was a better character than her. Hell, everyone from FFVIII was a better character than her. Yes, I said it.

[Skyblade]

I don't see anywhere where it indicates that Ramza thinks Delita is sociopath. From an outside point of view there is evidence that can be argued either way, and you could have the opinion that Ramza should have thought Delita was dangerous. But I don't think you can criticize him for not acting on opinions he didn't have.

Sure I can. Just like I can blame the entire cast of FFX for not noticing that Seymour is evil until it's directly pointed out to them. But at least they finally get around to doing something about it, while Ramza just lets a major villain (and obvious sociopath who hasn't cared about another human being since his sister died) take over the country.

If Tidus and company had never confronted Seymour, just gone on to kill Sin, and the game ended with Seymour marrying and killing Yuna, would anyone have accepted it? Heck, even if Tidus and Yuna got married instead, and ran off together on the airship while Seymour was left in charge of Spira as the only remaining maester of Yevon, would anyone have accepted that ending?

Yet that's exactly what Ramza does, and everyone still praises him as some big hero. Finish the job. Save the country, rescue the princess, kill (or at least stop) the bad guys. That's all a hero has to do. It's a simple job, and Ramza still smurfs it up.

You can't mostly save the world. It's an all or nothing thing. If you're going to give up halfway through, you might as well not even bother. You're certainly not going to be the hero in my book.

[maybee]

I have to defend Rosa here.

Rosa is not cliche or plain or dull. She is not your typical damsel in distress. Hell, how many times did Yuna and Rinoa need saving ? Spoony made a Yuna gets abducted counter for crying out loud.

Rosa is a strong character because her love for Cecil is strong. She was willing to cross dangerous paths and roads to make sure that Cecil was okay and she risked her own life because of it.

Because of her love for Cecil, she was willing to cross through dangerous places to try and make sure he was okay after the tragedy in the Mist village. That takes bravery, skill, and very strong love.

[Forsaken Lover]

Yes, she loved Cecil.

Now tell me another thing about her personality -soomething that has nothing to do with Cecil.

She was a stock love interest and nothing more. Her sole defining characteristic was she wanted to get into Cecil's pants. Even Rinoa had more characterization than that.

As for damsel in distress, I seem to recall a fever and also a trade with a crystal for her safety.

[Jinx]

Auron always seemed suspicious of Seymour.

And Rosa is the dullest.

[Forsaken Lover]

Auron: "Stay on your guard."
Tidus: "Why? This guy's just a priest, right?"
Auron: "Those with power use that power. Maesters have power."

Auron distrusts all of Yevon for obvious reasons. I don't think he fathomed the depths of Seymour's evil though.

[noshowmillk]

I want Zell and Exdeath to shut up! I actually like Exdeath but ZELL!

[Forsaken Lover]

Wait, I got another one.

People whine bout Snow and Hope and Vanille but what of the true festering pile of awfulness that XIII gave us...

Jihl Nabaat - The Final Fantasy Wiki has more Final Fantasy information than Cid could research (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Jihl_Nabaat)

I mean, what the hell. XIII had three villains (I don't count Cid) and while none were great, Barthandalus had some vague presence when he was introduced and Yaag had a sort of personality.

Jihl though? When she's properly introduced she does nothing but recite the most hackneyed and unoriginal "I am evil" dialogue I've ever heard. It inspires nothing more or less than rolling your eyes and yawning widely.

God bless you XIII for doing one thing right and that one thing is dispatching of her in the most appropriate way.

[VeloZer0]

I think you kind of entirely missed the point of Delita in the story of FFT. Ivalice as it was could only be ruled by someone as unscrupulous and manipulative as Deltia. Even if Ramza killed Delita the person who succeed him would be just as bad. For Ramza to rise to a position where he was in a position to change anything he would have had to become an existence just like Delita, who you so despise.

[Gamblet]

I think you kind of entirely missed the point of Delita in the story of FFT. Ivalice as it was could only be ruled by someone as unscrupulous and manipulative as Deltia. Even if Ramza killed Delita the person who succeed him would be just as bad. For Ramza to rise to a position where he was in a position to change anything he would have had to become an existence just like Delita, who you so despise.

Exactly.

[maybee]

Yes, she loved Cecil.

Now tell me another thing about her personality -soomething that has nothing to do with Cecil.

She was a stock love interest and nothing more. Her sole defining characteristic was she wanted to get into Cecil's pants. Even Rinoa had more characterization than that.

As for damsel in distress, I seem to recall a fever and also a trade with a crystal for her safety.

She's like a older sister and friend to Rydia for one and she's still Kain's old friend. No, I disagree. Her sole purpose was to be a loving character, by showing kindness and support for Cecil and others.

She got the fever because she was willing to risk her own life in willing to make sure that Cecil and Kain are okay. That's pretty brave and selfless and showed that she really cared for the both of them. The crystal thing; she tried to protect Cecil who was injured. If she didn't, he could of died.


Rosa shows that there is nothing wrong with being nice.

[Skyblade]

I think you kind of entirely missed the point of Delita in the story of FFT. Ivalice as it was could only be ruled by someone as unscrupulous and manipulative as Deltia. Even if Ramza killed Delita the person who succeed him would be just as bad. For Ramza to rise to a position where he was in a position to change anything he would have had to become an existence just like Delita, who you so despise.

I don't think you quite understand my point. The lasting corruption is what makes Ramza's character entirely pointless. It makes Ramza little more than a mass murderer, because no end is achieved. You don't change anything, you don't fix anything. You just slaughter thousands of soldiers and turn the kingdom over to a new maniac. That's not accomplishing anything, except to kill a bunch of people.

There was someone who could have taken the throne and done well with it, Princess Ophelia. Or, heck, TG Cid could have done it (and the promotion of military leader to ruler is hardly unprecedented). There were countless characters who could have taken the throne and been good, solid rulers (Ramza not being one of them).

Is there lasting corruption that could come back to attack the new ruler? Possibly (though the thought of anyone taking TG Cid is kind of laughable). So, kill them too. That's kind of the point. If you're going to start a revolution, the point is to burn the corruption away and leave things in a state where a better system can form or grow. You leave someone good in charge and wipe out the corrupt groups conspiring against them.

Heck, it's one of the most basic stories in literature. The whole "save the princess" thing? Yeah, it usually leads to this. Look at Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn. Great examples of this same sort of thing. Ike grabs a single good person, and pushes her to the throne, literally slaughtering anyone who gets in the way. You mow down entire armies, and wipe out a kingdom, just to achieve that goal. Then, when she's in power with a loyal group or retainers supporting her, then you jolly well head off to do your own thing. Only, oh no, someone gets uppity and starts something again. Does Ike just say "to hell with it"? No, he gets right back up, kicks their butts, and leaves things running smoothly again.

The only reason "only a corrupt individual could rule Ivalice" is because people, including Ramza, believe that. Most of the major corrupt groups have been ended. Eliminate the warring Dukes, the church of Glabedos, and any other schemers with large power bases. Put Ophelia directly in charge as queen, and she'd bring the entire country to a new golden age. She's a strong enough individual on her own, but, more than that, she's not alone. She has plenty of strong supporters, who aren't corrupt, and wouldn't tolerate corruption.

You burn out the corruption, leave it no infrastructure with which to rebuild itself, and then put someone pure in charge, and give them the support to keep going. Corruption may eventually come back (it's almost inevitible), but it will take a long damn time, because the new corruption will have to build entirely new power structures and alliances before they become major players.

As it is, all Ramza succeeded in doing was killing a bunch of people, and then turning the kingdom over to a lunatic, saying "nope, this place is a write-off, to hell with it". No other hero, heck no other Final Fantasy character period, would do that.

[NinjaCoachZ]

Cait Freaking Sith.

[Wolf Kanno]

I think you kind of entirely missed the point of Delita in the story of FFT. Ivalice as it was could only be ruled by someone as unscrupulous and manipulative as Deltia. Even if Ramza killed Delita the person who succeed him would be just as bad. For Ramza to rise to a position where he was in a position to change anything he would have had to become an existence just like Delita, who you so despise.

I don't think you quite understand my point. The lasting corruption is what makes Ramza's character entirely pointless. It makes Ramza little more than a mass murderer, because no end is achieved. You don't change anything, you don't fix anything. You just slaughter thousands of soldiers and turn the kingdom over to a new maniac. That's not accomplishing anything, except to kill a bunch of people.

There was someone who could have taken the throne and done well with it, Princess Ophelia. Or, heck, TG Cid could have done it (and the promotion of military leader to ruler is hardly unprecedented). There were countless characters who could have taken the throne and been good, solid rulers (Ramza not being one of them).

Is there lasting corruption that could come back to attack the new ruler? Possibly (though the thought of anyone taking TG Cid is kind of laughable). So, kill them too. That's kind of the point. If you're going to start a revolution, the point is to burn the corruption away and leave things in a state where a better system can form or grow. You leave someone good in charge and wipe out the corrupt groups conspiring against them.

Heck, it's one of the most basic stories in literature. The whole "save the princess" thing? Yeah, it usually leads to this. Look at Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn. Great examples of this same sort of thing. Ike grabs a single good person, and pushes her to the throne, literally slaughtering anyone who gets in the way. You mow down entire armies, and wipe out a kingdom, just to achieve that goal. Then, when she's in power with a loyal group or retainers supporting her, then you jolly well head off to do your own thing. Only, oh no, someone gets uppity and starts something again. Does Ike just say "to hell with it"? No, he gets right back up, kicks their butts, and leaves things running smoothly again.

The only reason "only a corrupt individual could rule Ivalice" is because people, including Ramza, believe that. Most of the major corrupt groups have been ended. Eliminate the warring Dukes, the church of Glabedos, and any other schemers with large power bases. Put Ophelia directly in charge as queen, and she'd bring the entire country to a new golden age. She's a strong enough individual on her own, but, more than that, she's not alone. She has plenty of strong supporters, who aren't corrupt, and wouldn't tolerate corruption.

You burn out the corruption, leave it no infrastructure with which to rebuild itself, and then put someone pure in charge, and give them the support to keep going. Corruption may eventually come back (it's almost inevitible), but it will take a long damn time, because the new corruption will have to build entirely new power structures and alliances before they become major players.

As it is, all Ramza succeeded in doing was killing a bunch of people, and then turning the kingdom over to a lunatic, saying "nope, this place is a write-off, to hell with it". No other hero, heck no other Final Fantasy character period, would do that.

I actually feel you do miss the point, I understand you were hoping for the Ike/Fire Emblen kind of story but honestly, Tactics is set in a crapsack world whereas Fire Emblen tends to be overly idealistic (good guys are always righteous and always win) as opposed to Tactics Ogre/FFTactics insight into the conflict of idealism. The point of Delita and Ramza's story is to show the differences of achieving your goals and what it may lead to, Delita throws his scruples out the window and eventually rules Ivalice, but he's no longer happy and comes to the conclusion he became the very monsters he fought against after he kills Ovelia, the only person he still loves. Ramza stands by his ideals through thick and thin but it leaves him with his name, honor, and ability to live a normal life in shambles. He keeps his soul and he's happy that he stuck to them but most people would probably not want to take the path Ramza took since he largely saved Ivalice and was pretty much socially ostracized for doing it.

Another issue you miss is that Ramza is not privvy to what Delita is doing, he knows he's fighting the evil of Ivalce from the inside but he never actually witnesses the atrocities Delita commits (and technically Delita is still mostly wiping out corrupt and selfish people) so as far as Ramza is concerned, Delita is the just ruler Ivalice needs and in retrospect of the other people wanting the throne, Ivalice is better off with Delita. So you're selling Ramza short since he's largely unaware of how far Delita has gone towards the darkside, and as long as Ivalice is in a better place in his rule, why should Ramza feel Ivalice is in bad place? Ramza's perspective is not the player's perspective, so as far as Ramza is concerned Ivalice's corruption has been cleaned up for the most part, Delita is still a better person in charge than Larg, Goltana, or the Glabados Church.

Delita reunited the kingdom, broke the powerbase of the nobles, and his commoner background will endear him to the people. Just ending the war and letting Ivalice finally recoup from two disastrous wars is enough for most of the common people to love him, and considering he's referenced with adoration in Vagrant Story, he may have actually been a better ruler than you are giving him credit for. Hell some fans argue whether Ramza and Alma actually survived the final battle and feel the game's ending is largely symbolic as opposed to literal, with Olan actually just imagining seeing Ramza and Alma together cause he hoped they were happy wherever they were.

The point is that Ivalice's fate was never really what was important, it was watching two friends with the same goal taking different paths to achieve it and reaping what they sowed. To be honest, Ivalice's fate ultimately felt like the most likely thing that could have happened in that world and was largely the best option.

[Skyblade]

I'll have to play again to see just how much of Delita's activities Ramza is aware of (though, early on, the player only sees what Ramza sees of Delita, and I was still convinced he was a villain really early). And I won't do that until at least after I finish Persona 4, and if I can find a way to play without falling into the progression trap.

And I do admit that my view may be somewhat skewed by the way someone spoiled Delita's ending scene for me when I was only halfway through the story. I already thought he was a villain, but that scene absolutely enraged me. The first person in the story who agreed with me that he was a monster, and a character I liked, gets killed trying to stop him. Yeah, I basically quit playing then and only barely managed to squeak my way through the story over a couple of years. And more than anything else, that scene destroyed my love of this game, so it might have been the way I encountered it.


As to the world, though... Sure, it's a crapsack world. You can tell that by the way its color scheme inspired modern shooters (Ivalice was made of grey, brown, and spells in that game).

That doesn't excuse a hero not being heroic, though. FFX is a crapsack world ruled by corrupt, oppressive regime. The story is about the heroes overcoming that to save the world.

Evil only succeeds when good men do nothing.

Oh, and Ivalice's fate is too important. Ivalice is possibly the best world Square ever made. It doesn't deserve to be abandoned.

[Gamblet]

I'll have to play again to see just how much of Delita's activities Ramza is aware of (though, early on, the player only sees what Ramza sees of Delita, and I was still convinced he was a villain really early). And I won't do that until at least after I finish Persona 4, and if I can find a way to play without falling into the progression trap.

And I do admit that my view may be somewhat skewed by the way someone spoiled Delita's ending scene for me when I was only halfway through the story. I already thought he was a villain, but that scene absolutely enraged me. The first person in the story who agreed with me that he was a monster, and a character I liked, gets killed trying to stop him. Yeah, I basically quit playing then and only barely managed to squeak my way through the story over a couple of years. And more than anything else, that scene destroyed my love of this game, so it might have been the way I encountered it.

Yeah you should replay it with open mind, not thinking of the spoilers.

[Wolf Kanno]

I'll have to play again to see just how much of Delita's activities Ramza is aware of (though, early on, the player only sees what Ramza sees of Delita, and I was still convinced he was a villain really early). And I won't do that until at least after I finish Persona 4, and if I can find a way to play without falling into the progression trap.

And I do admit that my view may be somewhat skewed by the way someone spoiled Delita's ending scene for me when I was only halfway through the story. I already thought he was a villain, but that scene absolutely enraged me. The first person in the story who agreed with me that he was a monster, and a character I liked, gets killed trying to stop him. Yeah, I basically quit playing then and only barely managed to squeak my way through the story over a couple of years. And more than anything else, that scene destroyed my love of this game, so it might have been the way I encountered it.

That would do it, though I don't feel we're meant to really like Delita, just simply see him as a cautionary tale. He's a hero to the world, but the player is the one who is privy to who he really is. I mean the whole story is told as a heretical manuscript that the Church had been keeping silent for ages, because it paints a historical hero as a scheming monster, and a forgotten heretic as the true hero of Ivalice. It would be like finding a diary today in the U.S. that painted George Washington as a manipulative coward who spun a good story to make himself a hero and that Benedict Arnold was the true hero of the Revolutionary War. I doubt it would go over very well, since both figures have pretty much been marked by history.


As to the world, though... Sure, it's a crapsack world. You can tell that by the way its color scheme inspired modern shooters (Ivalice was made of grey, brown, and spells in that game).

That doesn't excuse a hero not being heroic, though. FFX is a crapsack world ruled by corrupt, oppressive regime. The story is about the heroes overcoming that to save the world.

Evil only succeeds when good men do nothing.

Oh, and Ivalice's fate is too important. Ivalice is possibly the best world Square ever made. It doesn't deserve to be abandoned.

Well Ivalice wasn't abandoned, it simply marched on like most history. I also disagree about FFX being a real crapsack world since I feel its cosmology undermines the drama of it all, and technically it's corrupt regime are well intentioned extremist who simply wanted people to have hope and remain in power in doing so.

Still, I feel a real crapsack world is one where the world itself can never escape being a crapsack world and that is the difference between FFX and FFTactics, Spira is ultimately saved from what makes it a crapsack world, whereas Ivalice can't really be saved cause even if a good regime is in power, it will eventually grow corrupt or some new dark power will arise to destroy it, I mean FFXII's Creation Myth pretty much tells you that Ivalice exists to torture a fallen god for all eternity. Ivalice is a world filled with people, and not the idealistic notion of a mostly good people with one or two bad eggs that cause conflict, I'm talking about a world where most people are somewhat selfish and make mistakes that cause terrible consequences for other. Even well intentioned Idealist can be transformed into complete monsters, much like Delita whom I feel we can at least agree that his goal was actually really good, it's just his methods and what he became that prevents him from being an anti-hero, let alone a true hero. I feel it's this very quality that sets it apart from the main FF series, because ultimately the main FF series is about good versus evil, whereas Tactics makes you question who the good guys are and whether the villains are actually right in what they are trying to accomplish. The Ivalice titles that Matsuno worked on carry this trait, whether it be FFTactics, Vagrant Story, FFTactics Advance, or FFXII.

[Forsaken Lover]

Okay I have a new choice. Rosa was bland but I guess she wasn't badly written overall for what she was.

Not like this travesty.
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080223075839/finalfantasy/images/5/54/Lucrecia1.jpg

Even by Dirge of Cerberus standards she stands out as the most unintelligent, unlikable, unsympathetic and badly-written piece of trash imaginable. I get Vinny-Mac was in love and love makes you dumb and blind but there is no excuse for him liking her after he learns the truth about everything.

Lucrecia comes off as only slightly less monstrous than Hojo and the tragedy of it is that this was clearly not what they intended. They were trying to make you feel sorry for her.

I can safely say that Square has rarely failed so absolutely. I'd take almost any character you can name over Lucrecia.

[Gamblet]

Okay I have a new choice. Rosa was bland but I guess she wasn't badly written overall for what she was.

Not like this travesty.
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080223075839/finalfantasy/images/5/54/Lucrecia1.jpg

Even by Dirge of Cerberus standards she stands out as the most unintelligent, unlikable, unsympathetic and badly-written piece of trash imaginable. I get Vinny-Mac was in love and love makes you dumb and blind but there is no excuse for him liking her after he learns the truth about everything.

Lucrecia comes off as only slightly less monstrous than Hojo and the tragedy of it is that this was clearly not what they intended. They were trying to make you feel sorry for her.

I can safely say that Square has rarely failed so absolutely. I'd take almost any character you can name over Lucrecia.

She looks hot though.

[Forsaken Lover]

Meh. For DOC scientists, I'll take Shalua.
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080223064338/finalfantasy/images/f/f9/Shalua2.jpg