The Progression Trap

[Skyblade]

I need to get away from my massive ranting about the story for a bit, so I'd like to share something I don't think I've shared before, my single biggest problem with the gameplay.

Those who know me on these boards know that I'm a firm advocate of FFTA and FFTA2's progression systems as opposed to the original FFT's.

The reasons for this are partially because I just really, really like the progression system in those games. However, there's also the fact that, due to my own gameplay quirks, I find FFT's system nearly unplayable.

See, the thing is, FFT's system is open. Incredibly open. With the exception of very, very few abilities, you can basically learn everything from the get go. There is nothing at all to slow or gate progression in any way. This leads me (an admittedly odd player) with a ton of stuff to unlock, and no end in sight. It's always a question of "ooh, just one more ability" or "just one more job, so I can get better levelling stats".

Further, you can optimize JP progression fairly early, and set up entire battles just to grind out JP. Unfortunately, as you do so, you also gain experience. The problem here is that Exp is very, very bad in this game. Because griding experience levels you up, but doesn't increase your gear, and gear is gated in this game. And, since enemies in random battles level up as though your gear levelled up with you (especially monsters), you can, after only a couple JP grind battles, wind up in a position where the enemy massively overpowers you, to the point where enemies in random battles can one hit kill your characters.

This is where I stall out on the game. I don't ever find a natural progression for job unlocks. If I just progress through missions fighting to win, I unlock JP incredibly slowly, and wind up with no real job progression. But, if I stop to level jobs, I wind up getting overwhelmed by incredibly powerful enemies that I really have no chance of beating.

I've never found a happy medium in this game, a point where you could just progress naturally, and that's why I loathe this progression system. While the FFTA (or, especially FFTA2) gates progression such that you're always moving, and can choose in what direction, but it never gets overwhelming.



This was mostly a rant, but it's also sort of a request for advice. How do you guys play it, and how do you balance your progression in it? How much griding do you do, and how fast do you keep moving through missions?

[Wolf Kanno]

Well, buying equipment is certainly gated but not stealing it... So when you encounter high level Humans classes in random battles, you can actually steal high level gear off them in case you over-leveled. JP from classes also bleed over into other party members for the class that's being leveled so if you have a Knight and Black Mage in a team and use them together a lot, both will start getting small but useful JP accumulation of the others class as time goes by which helps in leveling and unlocking classes. The game really does build it so it's more beneficial to stick to one party. I often feel the story characters classes are overpowered because it helps compensate for how much better the system is utilized for sticking to a starting party.

So that's one way to do it, obviously the main idea of fixing this is simply not maxing out a class when you get it, partly because it takes too long (especially in WotL which restores the original Japanese JP requirements which are insanely high for some classes) and also you run into the enemy level issue as well. The point of the system is basically grind what you need and then move on. Some of the high level classes like Ninja have mostly awful abilities to learn but their stats and stat growth make them amazing classes so you'll want to reach them early so you can grind actual levels from them as opposed to learning abilities. Mages are probably the most problematic until you realize how much of a double edged sword high level spells are. The strength of FFTactics is that while it's hard to grind for JP, you still get to choose what skills you want (which is why I like it better than TA series) so at least when you do a little grinding, the JP you do earn gets to go towards something you need as opposed to a skill you may never use but learned for job mastery. Also, you can affect XP growth by utilizing skills on low level characters, since XP is gained based on level difference so if your casting Wall on a lv. 60 character, you get a ton more XP than if you used a cure spell for a Lv. 6 character, so sometimes it's useful to keep a low level leveling mule in your roster if you feel you're progressing too quickly, you can also use Steal XP on characters to artificially keep their levels low and then just have the high leveled thief character kicked out of the party when their high level starts to affect random encounter levels.. Though I feel a "learn what you need/want and move on" approach is far more organic and flexible than doing either of these.

The customization of FFTactics is kind of meant for you not to master the jobs on a first go, instead prioritize (and thus customize) your party by focusing on what you feel is most important and then moving onto bigger things, coming back to pick up skills when you need them. A Black Mage only needs the Lv 1 and 2 variants of the elemental spells in the early parts of the game, but towards the end game you might want to come back and teach them Lv. 3 and possibly Lv.4 versions. The Calculator/Arithmetician is probably the only class directly affected by not power leveling but considering it's such an overpowered bulltrout class to begin with, I don't feel its a huge detriment. Mastering classes is suppose to be an end game thing, it's kind of obvious with the charge times of some skills and classes being absolutely impractical in the early parts of the game whereas later parts can make them more practical. So I feel you are meant to do a hit and run approach for the classes as opposed to mastering everything you may need for even later parts of the game.

[Bolivar]

I honestly can't testify too much to your second dilemma. I grind the hell out of my characters in single battles that I stretch out to great lengths just Accumulating to gain JP until I'm ready to end it. I've never really noticed the issue of being out-geared. This may be because I probably seriously grinded mid-to-late game where gear gates weren't an issue anymore. It may have played out in the all-or-nothing gameplay I notice at the end, where it's all about spamming your overpowered attacks before the enemy does theirs. Another problem I had is that FFT is just a really hard game, so I always felt grinding necessary, and while I'm a big advocate of pacing, the game was just so good I didn't care that I was wasting entire afternoons on a single battle unlocking a couple job trees.

I'm not sure if you've played Tactics Ogre, Sky, but the system there is arguably even more open than FFT. There's no primary ability slot, secondary slot, move slot, or support slot. There's just a massive list of hundreds of skills, passives and actives, for each character to buy from and assign to 8-12 slots (which you also have to buy). It might just be the kind of player that I am, but I get absolutely enthralled in this extreme of customization and its probably why I liked FFT better than its successor.

I didn't like FFTA's progression system of learning abilities from equipment. It wasn't as well-executed as FFIX because the game overloads you with a massive list of equipment, even early on, and it's just overwhelming to me. I had a similar feeling for the rest of the game's mechanics. I like how there's bigger job variety but I just couldn't get over how to progress my characters and it's remained a game I just walked away from. Maybe I'll pick it up again after I finish my current, comprehensive, Lawful second playthrough of Tactics Ogre, but at the end of the day it's a Tactics game that's not made by Matsuno and that's like playing a Metal Gear game that's not made by Kojima.

[Skyblade]

I do admit that the FFTA/FFTA2 progression system didn't feel as natural. It took a little while for it to click with me and for me to realize how it worked. But as soon as it did, I pretty much fell in love with it.

The massive item list never gave me a problem because the game accessed it intelligently (in this way I feel that FFTA did better than FFTA2, albeit only slightly). The game jumps to items you can equip, and greys out those you can't. So you only have a handful of equippable ones per job. As soon as you realize that equipment is broken into classes that match jobs, and how to check abilities, it becomes really simple.

It's better than FFIX because it opens up more equipment faster. You always have several new abilities to choose from in how to progress, while in FFIX you can max everything you have currently in a handful of battles, and each time you get a new piece of equipment, it takes a few more battles to master it, so they might as well just dole out abilities flat-out as you progress the game. Whereas FFTA gives you decisions. Stick to a new job, or switch to a new one. Since AP is awarded by battle/mission completion, you don't have to fight battles particular ways. Then too, random battles are fewer and far between, resulting in an increased incentive to level abilities through missions, rather than random battles. The progression flows more naturally, and "grinding" consists of accepting more of the sidequests, which become more plentiful earlier on.



I haven't played Tactics Ogre in a really, really long time, and I barely remember it. I haven't really felt the need to go back to it, and I have a huge backlog already, so...

I just feel that FFT's system, between the freedom to level absolutely everything from page one, and the slow rate of JP accumulation tied with JP being awarded based on how you fight, strips any sort of natural progression out of the game. Not being able to find a natural progression, and running into the problems I do with grinding (which I try to do immediately, because that's the kind of guy I am, so I start before I even get Mustadio) and getting killed, I wind up absolutely hating the system.

If it had either gated progression, or a more constant flow of JP (awarding it after every battle, for example), I think it would be a lot more balanced and tolerable. And both (as FFTA and FFTA2 did) is ideal. It doesn't prevent grinding or overlevelling, but it gives the game a natural progression and thus you know when you're grinding, what you're aiming for, and have a better idea of how to control the grind. I'm probably not phrasing this clearly, but, dangit, I know what I mean!

[Beowulf]

My goal in Tactics is to be 99 before the end of Chapter 1, usually, with all classes maxed out. The good news about this, as I'm sure you've noticed, the enemies level with you in random battles. However, the story line enemies remain the same. That's just me, personally. If I DON'T do that, I grind until I get my favorite classes, monk and calculator, and then breeze through the game either way.

So really, it's just how you play, how long you want to grind, annd if you feel like doing the skills glitch to make your life easier. XD

[Raistlin]

I don't really understand most of the OP's problems with FFT. Yes, FFT is very open, and I can see how some would prefer the game to have some sort of means of limiting your progression as you go along. But I've never faced a great deal of extra difficulty due to leveling up. I suppose it's theoretically a problem if you grind a lot very early and don't bother learning extra jobs and abilities or buying new equipment, but generally the bonuses you get by grinding (new jobs and abilities) offset the increased difficulty of random encounters (assuming your party is fairly balanced, of course; if you have one character far ahead level-wise, the random encounters can be much more difficult). I've never had problems as a result of leveling up.

I personally favor the FFT style to FFTA, though FFTA did do some things well. I like having more openness and the freedom of picking individual abilities to focus on.

[Greatermaximus]

It depends on your goals and there's plenty of different people here with ideas. Some like to really Grind as a poster already stated, others find the game too easy and play low level runs like me.

My sig exemplifies both those extremes. You'd have to find the low level in one of my final fantasy VI videos. Though I don't grind too much at first because I want a challenge. Attempting the impossible is another story.

[Skyblade]

Yeah, I start my grinding basically as soon as the game opens up (it's just how my mind works). I unlock advanced jobs almost immediately. Then I run into the problem that I don't have gear for the advanced jobs, or the higher levels.

On the other hand, if I just go through the regular battles, I don't get much JP progression, especially considering how many most abilities take.

I'm trying to find a "happy medium" where I'm not grinding so much that I grind myself into the ground, but where I do still progress, and that's what I can't find. How much grinding do you guys do per mission? When do you grind, and for how long? Do you do one big grind fest every chapter, or split it with multiple mini sessions after each quest?

[Bolivar]

I haven't played Tactics Ogre in a really, really long time, and I barely remember it. I haven't really felt the need to go back to it, and I have a huge backlog already, so...

I'm actually really surprised! I always think of you as one of the top strategy/tactical/simulation RPG enthusiasts on this site, and Tactics Ogre was such an interesting project with the original staff, I just assumed it would be really big on your radar.

Anyhow, I understand your need for balanced pacing, I put a pretty large premium on it myself. But like I said earlier, the fact that I don't mind wasting such time grinding away in these games is more a testament to how good they are and less of a talking point on which is the best.

[Skyblade]

Tactics Ogre was one of the first tactical RPGs I ever played (Shining Force was the first). The complexity of systems and plot really intimidated me, and made SF more appealing. I don't have bad memories of it, just not many memories at all. I still get it confused with various other games (including the Ogre Battle games).

I've put it in my backlog to go back to, but some things have put it lower on the burner. First, comparisons to FFT do not move it up my list, as I fear it will suffer from the same sorts of over complications. For example, I feel that faith/bravery and Zodiac alignments are pointlessly complex, and should have been left out, and fear of similar systems is a point against TO.

Second, I have little free time these days (and what I have is spent with P4G right now). And tactical RPGs are not short or easy to grab and play in a small time gap.

Third, I have several TRPGs already in my play rota. When I have time, I'm working both Fire Emblem and FFTA2.

I do intend to go back to Tactics Ogre at some point, because it never really got a chance with me, but I have no idea when I'll get to it.

I might give it a go instead of my annual "see if I can get through FFT" attempt. Way to totally derail this thread. ;)